what the hell is the law here?
I don't mean four-way flashing red, I mean a light that is dead dark *black*. Does one treat it as a four-way stop, or does one blow right through?
if the former, why do drivers blow right through? if the latter, what's preventing two drivers from blowing right through on intersecting paths and ... intersecting?
I tend to come to a full stop, observe surroundings, and go. Even for a light that has been obviously taped over because it's not in service, I tend to be slowing down pretty hard by the time I'm close enough to note the tape. They tend not to make it very obvious from a distance that the light is intentionally unused, as opposed to sleeping on the job.
If the signal is blacked-out, due to a power outage, then it's supposed to be treated as a four-way stop.
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: Bryant5493 on November 10, 2010, 10:42:12 AM
If the signal is blacked-out, due to a power outage, then it's supposed to be treated as a four-way stop.
yeah, but driving defensively means you have to assume that people don't know that ... because, in reality, they don't. one of the greatest clusterfucks I've ever seen was on old 66 in Gallup NM with a traffic light out of service. People were all assuming they had the right of way, and cutting each other off left and right. I had to seize the moment and plow through the intersection, swerving around two cars who were doing the same thing in various other directions, or else I'd have been stuck there all day.
Driving defensively also means you figure people will go when they shouldn't. Which means you should probably slow down or stop anyway at the intersection.
But Bryant is right. The law treats a dead/dark signal as a 4-way stop unless there's a law enforcement officer there directing traffic.
Quote from: froggie on November 10, 2010, 01:42:32 PM
Driving defensively also means you figure people will go when they shouldn't.
exactly - that's what I meant: people don't know that a dead light is a four-way stop, so they'll plow on through. or, in the case of Gallup, realize that something is awry and slow down just enough to be the first one through around everyone else.
I almost got creamed once crossing Ohio River Blvd. to the McKees Rocks bridge. The power was out due to a recent storm, I came to a complete stop, but some lady heading into the city on 65 had absolutely NO intention of stopping. In fact, I think she sped up (which is why it was a really close call.
The worst part is the bitch had the nerve to honk at ME.
aggressive stupidity is the best kind! :pan:
We have some here that are taped over and not ready for service yet. They are treated as a stop sign for the side street (an have a stop sign for an active side street).
This reminds me of the out-of service traffic signal in the Disney movie "Cars". It flashes yellow in all four directions. Really stupid. The bad part is that the person stupid enough to make this mistake is in the movie industry and is surely filthy rich.
There are only two intersections with out of service signals that were completely dark that I have come across in my life. Both had four way stops.
Speaking of the dark signal head, this situation occurred (sp?) to me in the last few months, two months ago or so. The major street, which is five lanes wide (four through lanes/center turn lane), and the minor street, which is three lanes at the major street (one through lane in each direction; left turn lane), had a dark signal. I was on the minor street, so I waited... and all traffic stopped. I was surprised. Then when they did, I made sure that they would stay stopped and then I entered the intersection.
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: froggie on November 10, 2010, 01:42:32 PM
Driving defensively also means you figure people will go when they shouldn't. Which means you should probably slow down or stop anyway at the intersection.
But Bryant is right. The law treats a dead/dark signal as a 4-way stop unless there's a law enforcement officer there directing traffic.
Not to change the subject..
Speaking of driving defensively, that is why I hate roundabouts b/c people never YIELD, even if there are two two-pole yield signs on both sides of the road.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 10, 2010, 04:35:27 PM
aggressive stupidity is the best kind! :pan:
awesome line. pure awesome.
Quote from: doofy103 on November 10, 2010, 08:03:01 PM
Not to change the subject..
Speaking of driving defensively, that is why I hate roundabouts b/c people never YIELD, even if there are two two-pole yield signs on both sides of the road.
a yield sign, similarly to a yellow light, is an implication that maximum speed must be achieved to blast through the intersection.
^^
How true. :-D
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: Brian556 on November 10, 2010, 06:15:52 PM
There are only two intersections with out of service signals that were completely dark that I have come across in my life. Both had four way stops.
You've never driven during a power outage? Or after a storm/hurricane?
Around here, the police are usually prompt with getting officers there to direct traffic, or put up temporary stop signs if they don't have the people (and at minor intersections).
West Lafayette, IN has foldable stop signs permanently mounted at most traffic lights, so all it takes is someone to drive around and unfold them in the event of a loss of power or damage to the signal.
Quote from: realjd on November 11, 2010, 07:37:29 AM
West Lafayette, IN has foldable stop signs permanently mounted at most traffic lights, so all it takes is someone to drive around and unfold them in the event of a loss of power or damage to the signal.
I acutally was thinking about this, but didn't think this was actually a reality somewhere.
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: Bryant5493 on November 11, 2010, 08:47:57 AM
Quote from: realjd on November 11, 2010, 07:37:29 AM
West Lafayette, IN has foldable stop signs permanently mounted at most traffic lights, so all it takes is someone to drive around and unfold them in the event of a loss of power or damage to the signal.
I acutally was thinking about this, but didn't think this was actually a reality somewhere.
Be well,
Bryant
It's very common in the Chicago area for these to be installed. Almost every signal I know of has them.
Quote from: Bryant5493 on November 11, 2010, 08:47:57 AM
I acutally was thinking about this, but didn't think this was actually a reality somewhere.
I was trying to find a good shot of one on Google Maps, but apparently a student went through and photographed a number of traffic control devices in the area for a class project, so he has a good picture of one of the folding stop signs:
http://picasaweb.google.com/kallol87/CE565Photos#5316119945202215138
Many places in Quebec also have these foldable STOP signs.
So I happened to be looking at our state (MN) drivers' manual and this it what it says:
A traffic signal with flashing reds is a stop sign.
If an intersection has a completely non-functioning signal, it is treated as an uncontrolled intersection.
Elsewhere in the manual, instructions for uncontrolled intersections are given. Approach with caution, yield to traffic from your right. No requirement to stop unless traffic warrants.
Quote from: realjd on November 11, 2010, 09:49:16 AM
I was trying to find a good shot of one on Google Maps, but apparently a student went through and photographed a number of traffic control devices in the area for a class project, so he has a good picture of one of the folding stop signs:
http://picasaweb.google.com/kallol87/CE565Photos#5316119945202215138
I'll be. Very interesting. Thanks for the find.
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: Coelacanth on November 11, 2010, 10:11:23 AM
If an intersection has a completely non-functioning signal, it is treated as an uncontrolled intersection.
what kind of shit law is that? other states seem to be more sensible in that they revert a non-functional signal into a four-way stop. The words "uncontrolled intersection" are just asking for a horrific wreck and, by extension, a delicious lawsuit. there's a damn good reason why such things don't exist outside of shopping mall parking lots and residential street grids where everyone is going 12mph.
also, who (outside of France) knows the "yield to the right" rule? Most people will assume that traffic going straight on the road that has higher apparent priority (by number of lanes, traffic volume, etc) gets the right of way.
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on November 11, 2010, 09:53:52 AM
Many places in Quebec also have these foldable STOP signs.
Missouri has a lot of these, too.
Most signals at major intersections have battery backup and can go to emergency flash when the power is interrupted. Or, police will sometimes cut off access from the side streets and let main traffic flow through the intersection.
Sometimes during construction, when existing signals are temporarily extinguished, they will be covered and orange signs will be posted alerting to the situation.
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on November 11, 2010, 09:53:52 AM
Many places in Quebec also have these foldable STOP signs.
Don't you mean ARRET? :D
And a few intersections around here have those.
Quote from: Brian556 on November 10, 2010, 06:15:52 PM
This reminds me of the out-of service traffic signal in the Disney movie "Cars". It flashes yellow in all four directions. Really stupid. The bad part is that the person stupid enough to make this mistake is in the movie industry and is surely filthy rich.
In Italy that's the standard for lower-volume intersections at night. All intersections with signals give one street STOP signs with the caveat "A semaforo spento o lampegiante" - literally "If signal out or flashing", though in NATO areas the English sign below will say "When traffic signal off or yellow blinker on."
In Marietta, GA, they switch some of the lower volume traffic lights on Roswell Street (former SR 120) to flashing yellow, with flashing red for the side streets. However, I've been behind numerous people that will stop for these as if they are completely out. Same for lights that have gone to battery back up. When the lights go out completely, it's a free for all. Most people don't know how to approach a normal four way stop, let alone one with multiple lanes.
Quote from: Bryant5493 on November 11, 2010, 08:47:57 AM
Quote from: realjd on November 11, 2010, 07:37:29 AM
West Lafayette, IN has foldable stop signs permanently mounted at most traffic lights, so all it takes is someone to drive around and unfold them in the event of a loss of power or damage to the signal.
I acutally was thinking about this, but didn't think this was actually a reality somewhere.
Anderson, SC has stop signs mounted on sawhorses they can deploy for just such an occasion, although I suppose the folding ones make more sense.
Here is a real-time clip of a "very interesting" malfunctioning traffic light in Cleveland, OH from earlier this week. It was repaired soon after...
http://video-embed.cleveland.com/services/player/bcpid619326673001?bctid=681236547001
^^
"Very interesting," to say the least.
Be well,
Bryant
I was in Baton Rouge in September 2008 after Gustav hit. Lots of the lights around the university reverted to flashing yellow for the main streets, and flashing red for side streets. Yet, traffic treated it as a four way stop. I had a couple of arguments with people where they said Louisiana law read that any flashing signal should be treated as a four way stop during an emergency or natural disaster such as a hurricane. I argued that Louisiana should then program the lights to flash red in all directions. Lots of arguments and frustration when driving around town.
Quote from: AstareGod on December 19, 2010, 11:06:01 PM
Louisiana law read that any flashing signal should be treated as a four way stop during an emergency or natural disaster such as a hurricane.
how would people know that? I know, ignorance of the law is no excuse... but I would like to think of myself as a fairly well-informed motorist, and there is no way in Hell I would know that.
Found a related thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3740.0
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 19, 2010, 11:40:16 PM
how would people know that? I know, ignorance of the law is no excuse... but I would like to think of myself as a fairly well-informed motorist, and there is no way in Hell I would know that.
I'd like to think of myself as a fairly well-informed motorist too (if I could borrow your words). I came from Mississippi and flashing red meant stop and flashing yellow meant proceed with caution. I didn't hear of any law giving that a different meaning during a time of natural disaster - and when you live in a college town with students from potentially all over the country, you'll run into problems when lights flash non-standard.
In that other thread I linked to, a good argument was that following a natural disaster like that, traffic counts would be enormous, and lights programmed to failsafe to flashing red/yellow should actually be treated as a four way stop. (EDIT: That was actually you, agentsteel that made that statement!) My solution is to have those lights actually failsafe to all flashing red. State DOTs need to not be lazy and actually program their signals to do what they want them to do when they want them to do it.
"four way stop in disaster times: it's not just a good idea, it's the law"? would be really helpful if there were signs that explicitly stated that.
there are all kinds of quirky laws that are unique to a single state or two. Apparently, a U-turn is illegal in some state or another, and I can't remember for the life of me which one... except that it's not Ohio, contrary to the urban legend which claims it is.
From the point of view of most traffic engineers (at least the ones I know), a signal should always default to all-way flashing red and treated as an all-way stop in any kind of trouble or conflict situation. Red/yellow flash shouldn't be used at all (or at least in very limited circumstances) in atypical conditions.
It's situations like this that make me wish the Uniform Vehicle Code was the traffic law in all states... then there'd be no ambiguity.
Quote from: AstareGod on December 19, 2010, 11:06:01 PM
I was in Baton Rouge in September 2008 after Gustav hit. Lots of the lights around the university reverted to flashing yellow for the main streets, and flashing red for side streets. Yet, traffic treated it as a four way stop. I had a couple of arguments with people where they said Louisiana law read that any flashing signal should be treated as a four way stop during an emergency or natural disaster such as a hurricane. I argued that Louisiana should then program the lights to flash red in all directions. Lots of arguments and frustration when driving around town.
Being in Baton Rouge for Katrina, Rita, and Gustov as well, all the media outlets were telling folks to treat any intersection with non-working traffic lights as 4-way stops. It was being pounded into everyone who was listening.
Quote from: Adam Smith on December 21, 2010, 11:53:41 AM
Being in Baton Rouge for Katrina, Rita, and Gustov as well, all the media outlets were telling folks to treat any intersection with non-working traffic lights as 4-way stops. It was being pounded into everyone who was listening.
Non-working lights usually imply blank. Flashing yellow and red are a functioning light, even if it's not in normal phasing.
EDIT: I just checked the 2009 MUTCD. It specifically states that a flashing yellow means proceed with caution. If Louisiana has a different set of rules during emergencies, it's in violation of the MUTCD.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 20, 2010, 12:45:58 AM
"four way stop in disaster times: it's not just a good idea, it's the law"? would be really helpful if there were signs that explicitly stated that.
there are all kinds of quirky laws that are unique to a single state or two. Apparently, a U-turn is illegal in some state or another, and I can't remember for the life of me which one... except that it's not Ohio, contrary to the urban legend which claims it is.
In Wisconsin it used to be illegal to do a U-turn at signalized intersections. Caused a lot of confusion for out of state drivers. It was recently changed, within the past year I believe, so that U-turns are now allowed at signalized intersections.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 20, 2010, 12:45:58 AM
there are all kinds of quirky laws that are unique to a single state or two. Apparently, a U-turn is illegal in some state or another, and I can't remember for the life of me which one... except that it's not Ohio, contrary to the urban legend which claims it is.
It probably isn't a state law, but it is most definitely illegal on a city by city basis.
Quote from: 6a on December 21, 2010, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 20, 2010, 12:45:58 AM
there are all kinds of quirky laws that are unique to a single state or two. Apparently, a U-turn is illegal in some state or another, and I can't remember for the life of me which one... except that it's not Ohio, contrary to the urban legend which claims it is.
It probably isn't a state law, but it is most definitely illegal on a city by city basis.
I suppose someone saw this sign and the inverse was true for all other unmarked intersections.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roadfan.com%2Fgreenu.JPG&hash=9ceda9f571eb61c9c34b24ce30c22f1456ed0184)
On Sawmill Rd (NW Columbus) between Bethel and Case Rds.
Quote from: doofy103 on November 10, 2010, 08:03:01 PM
Quote from: froggie on November 10, 2010, 01:42:32 PM
Driving defensively also means you figure people will go when they shouldn't. Which means you should probably slow down or stop anyway at the intersection.
But Bryant is right. The law treats a dead/dark signal as a 4-way stop unless there's a law enforcement officer there directing traffic.
Not to change the subject..
Speaking of driving defensively, that is why I hate roundabouts b/c people never YIELD, even if there are two two-pole yield signs on both sides of the road.
This is why at all Portland roundabouts and traffic circles, stop signs are used.
Quote from: Adam Smith on December 21, 2010, 10:46:18 PM
Quote from: 6a on December 21, 2010, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 20, 2010, 12:45:58 AM
there are all kinds of quirky laws that are unique to a single state or two. Apparently, a U-turn is illegal in some state or another, and I can't remember for the life of me which one... except that it's not Ohio, contrary to the urban legend which claims it is.
It probably isn't a state law, but it is most definitely illegal on a city by city basis.
I suppose someone saw this sign and the inverse was true for all other unmarked intersections.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roadfan.com%2Fgreenu.JPG&hash=9ceda9f571eb61c9c34b24ce30c22f1456ed0184)
On Sawmill Rd (NW Columbus) between Bethel and Case Rds.
Palm Bay, FL used to have a sign at one intersection that said "U TURN OK". Since U-Turns are legal in FL it was redundant, but I always took it as a compliment on my turning skills!
In Quebec this would mean "Mandatory U-Turn".
Quote from: Bickendan on December 22, 2010, 05:45:08 AM
This is why at all Portland roundabouts and traffic circles, stop signs are used.
That's against the MUTCD as well, at least for roundabouts--requiring the full stop diminshes capacity and increases delay, especially when the roundabout is under favorable conditions.
Ugh. Damn this ice to hell...I got so tired of behaving that I took a picture of it :pan:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbishopdan.com%2Fimages%2Fno-go.jpg&hash=3d045b57a7c9f83d2bdf0963c48b5c3d35201860)
Found a non-operational traffic light in Haleiwa, Hawaii two weeks ago:
(//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/west/haleiwa_traffic_light.jpg) (//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/west/haleiwa_traffic_light.jpg)
It was posted on the Kamehameha Highway for an agricultural road / old alignment.
When GSV drove by it, it was still operational (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=maui&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.799322,106.787109&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Maui&ll=21.584474,-158.103935&spn=0,0.034246&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=21.584474,-158.103935&panoid=hg_XEmc0vrt_Izcu6ARcyA&cbp=12,186.3,,0,6.47)...
Quote from: 6a on February 02, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
Ugh. Damn this ice to hell...I got so tired of behaving that I took a picture of it :pan:
Indianola Ave. in Clintonville?
Quote from: 6a on February 02, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
Ugh. Damn this ice to hell...I got so tired of behaving that I took a picture of it :pan:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbishopdan.com%2Fimages%2Fno-go.jpg&hash=3d045b57a7c9f83d2bdf0963c48b5c3d35201860)
I like the old street light in the background. I wonder how old it is??
QuoteFound a non-operational traffic light in Haleiwa, Hawaii two weeks ago:
I've seen/photographed that same signal. It's only used in season.
QuoteIt was posted on the Kamehameha Highway for an agricultural road / old alignment.
Not an old alignment.
Quote from: froggie on February 02, 2011, 10:41:37 PM
QuoteFound a non-operational traffic light in Haleiwa, Hawaii two weeks ago:
I've seen/photographed that same signal. It's only used in season.
QuoteIt was posted on the Kamehameha Highway for an agricultural road / old alignment.
Not an old alignment.
Saw what looked like old pavement on GSV to the south of that, which made me think maybe it was an old alignment, but was not sure. There were two sets of signals on Maui that were for similar agricultural roads as seen to the north of the Haleiwa one, but they were set in flash mode when not used (one I saw a second time was activated).
Quote from: Adam Smith on February 02, 2011, 08:36:08 PM
Quote from: 6a on February 02, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
Ugh. Damn this ice to hell...I got so tired of behaving that I took a picture of it :pan:
Indianola Ave. in Clintonville?
That was High and something, but yeah it was in Clintonville.
Quote from: doofy103 on February 02, 2011, 08:41:54 PM
Quote from: 6a on February 02, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
Ugh. Damn this ice to hell...I got so tired of behaving that I took a picture of it :pan:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbishopdan.com%2Fimages%2Fno-go.jpg&hash=3d045b57a7c9f83d2bdf0963c48b5c3d35201860)
I like the old street light in the background. I wonder how old it is??
That is a neat old "acorn" style street lamp. Those were common into the 1960s. In my early years living in Van Nuys (I lived there from 1986 to 2004), I used to see them scattered around the San Fernando Valley. I think a few of them still exist.
I do not know if this counts, but on the Osceola Parkway in Kissimmee, FL there are two traffic lights at both of the ramps for FL 417 that are not operational! When the FL 417 was first opened, the lights were operational. Then two months later after 417 opened the county did a study and decided that there is not enough traffic to warrant a signal at this intersection, so they turned them onto flash mode and erected stop signs on the 417 ramps. Since then they have been flashing. Maybe one day if the traffic increases or if a fatal accident occurs, then will see these signals back in action.
Quote from: NE2 on June 02, 2011, 08:31:19 PM
Flashing is not non-operational...
Then the West NASA Causeway in Titusville, FL counts as the drawspan signals there have been covered over with plastic during the bridge rehabilation. Right now the WB span is under construction and the EB span is two ways and for some reason the signal heads are covered over spite that this bridge is active.
There was a signal near my place that went dark last week after the storms. Most drivers treated it as a 4-Way Stop. A few just flew right thru without stopping. Let me find my photos and I'll post a snap.
During several of the snowstorms over the past year or two when there have been power issues there have been dark traffic lights around here. One of the local radio stations, WTOP, ran a report talking about how the law in Virginia and DC is the common "treat it as a four-way-stop" but that in Maryland that law didn't exist. Of course the reporters, and the traffic reporters, and even the local governments in Maryland, asked everyone to treat them as four-way-stops, but people in all three jurisdictions routinely ignore this and just drive on through, and they blast the horn at anyone else who does the same. (Seems kind of hypocritical to me: If you think you don't have to yield to anyone, what makes you think anyone else has to yield to you?) Apparently a bill is introduced in Maryland's General Assembly each year to require a four-way-stop but it hasn't passed. I think it would be interesting if someone hit by a non-stopper were to file a civil lawsuit based on negligence–regardless of whether the law requires a four-way-stop, would a jury find that a reasonable man approaching an inoperative traffic light with other traffic around would have stopped? I know if I were on a jury I'd certainly vote that way if there were other traffic around (i.e., if it were 2 AM and the light was dark, I might say it's reasonable to slow down and yield, whereas if it's rush hour, you bet I think you need to stop).
What I worry about at dark lights are not so much the people on the other road who blast through without stopping. I worry more about whether the guy behind me is prepared for me to stop. I suppose it's partly paranoia from being rear-ended multiple times over the years (once when I was last on line at a light that had just turned green....cars in front of me hadn't gone yet and this fool woman just drove into the back of me because all she saw was the green light).
I think that with the people who barrel through at full speed it's irrelevant what the law is–they're going to say "me first" regardless. They're the same people who refuse to turn on their headlights in the rain or the snow or to signal when changing lanes and who try to drive down the turn lane and then shove over to the right to jump the queue at a traffic light.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 03, 2011, 09:39:22 AM
During several of the snowstorms over the past year or two when there have been power issues there have been dark traffic lights around here. One of the local radio stations, WTOP, ran a report talking about how the law in Virginia and DC is the common "treat it as a four-way-stop" but that in Maryland that law didn't exist.
Does Maryland have a law concerning operation of uncontrolled intersections? If so, that becomes the default with non-functional signals and no '4-way-stop' law.
--Andy
Quote from: andytom on June 03, 2011, 03:47:43 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 03, 2011, 09:39:22 AM
During several of the snowstorms over the past year or two when there have been power issues there have been dark traffic lights around here. One of the local radio stations, WTOP, ran a report talking about how the law in Virginia and DC is the common "treat it as a four-way-stop" but that in Maryland that law didn't exist.
Does Maryland have a law concerning operation of uncontrolled intersections? If so, that becomes the default with non-functional signals and no '4-way-stop' law.
--Andy
I don't know. Don't recall whether they mentioned that.
...hey look, non-operational traffic lights!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5131%2F5396910515_a3c5f3fd36.jpg&hash=88d3aa829c424343cf06f951b6663e8bccc04b4d)
I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark. Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.
There, instead of setting the signals to flashing red/yellow during low traffic periods, they simply turn them OFF and let the signs control things.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on June 04, 2011, 10:56:31 AM
I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark. Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.
There, instead of setting the signals to flashing red/yellow during low traffic periods, they simply turn them OFF and let the signs control things.
Mike
No, because traffic control devices may not conflict with each other. You can't display a stop sign and a red light - because then what's to prevent traffic from just continuing? "Officer, the legal definition of a stop sign allows me to proceed after checking traffic."
Quote from: mgk920 on June 04, 2011, 10:56:31 AM
I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark. Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.
This would be a great idea. There are times, particularly on rainy nights, when I stop at an intersection because I know there is a signal there but I can't see the dark signal heads. People who don't pass through the intersection often just fly right through. These signs would show up in the head lights. The main problem would be getting people to recognize that the sign is not effective when the signal is working.
--Andy
Quote from: mgk920 on June 04, 2011, 10:56:31 AM
I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark. Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.
There, instead of setting the signals to flashing red/yellow during low traffic periods, they simply turn them OFF and let the signs control things.
The MUTCD prohibits this, for eliminating the chance of conflicting messages between traffic controls--for example, a recent edition (2009?) clarifies that a stop sign cannot be used on a driveway that meets a signalized intersection. There are allowances for folding stop/yield signs that can be used at signalized intersections for unique conditions.
In order to follow the European model in the US, they'd probably have to rely on blank-out stop or yield signs. At that point, it's just less expensive to put the signal in red-yellow flash than add blank-outs to the installation.
Quote from: mgk920 on June 04, 2011, 10:56:31 AM
I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark. Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.
Missouri has Stop signs on many of their traffic signal poles, but they have to manually "activated" since they are normally folded and locked. I've seen a few intersections (don't remember where off-hand) that say the intersection is a 4-Way Stop if the signals aren't working.
It seems like they could use electromagnets to keep them folded.
I like that idea NE2. So in the event of a power outage the sign swings out automatically with the assistance of a spring.
Quote from: NE2 on June 04, 2011, 04:55:46 PM
It seems like they could use electromagnets to keep them folded.
I had this idea too. You wouldn't need a significant amount of current either.
You know I encountered a non operative signal on Orange Blossom Trail in Orlando once and obeyed the law and stopped! I was the only one who did while those around me kept going. Those on the side road had no way of going out to cross OBT and could have used those vehicles to stop. Anyway, my following the law was useless, even when these side street drivers had a chance to pull out they did not. They were afraid or thought the same way as most others do and that the main drag always has the right away.
They made all kinds of stuff after the 04 hurricanes on all radio and news programs. Talking about what was originally in this forum was a main topic as many fail to listen to the rules. Yet, I see in some places where those lights flash yellow where drivers come and treat it as a four way stop and think that is what they meant after the hurricanes. Tyler McKenzie a DJ on Z88 in Orlando got a call from someone complaining about people going though blinking yellow lights as if this pesonr thought that a blinking light meant non-operative. Tyler was agreeing with the caller and saying how ignorant these motorists are for not treating the non op light that the caller was reffering to, when she and the caller were both the ones who did not know what the law meant.
Quote from: roadfro on June 04, 2011, 03:06:55 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 04, 2011, 10:56:31 AM
I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark. Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.
There, instead of setting the signals to flashing red/yellow during low traffic periods, they simply turn them OFF and let the signs control things.
The MUTCD prohibits this, for eliminating the chance of conflicting messages between traffic controls--for example, a recent edition (2009?) clarifies that a stop sign cannot be used on a driveway that meets a signalized intersection. There are allowances for folding stop/yield signs that can be used at signalized intersections for unique conditions.
In order to follow the European model in the US, they'd probably have to rely on blank-out stop or yield signs. At that point, it's just less expensive to put the signal in red-yellow flash than add blank-outs to the installation.
And then you run into the reality that we have today where (a) people are increasingly ignoring the rule that a dark signal = a STOP sign and (b) people who are unfamiliar with the road being 'surprised' by a dark signal. I do know that the MUTCD now prohibits my above mentioned European solution to this, but it can always be amended.
Mike
You know that Kenilworth, NJ banked on people's ignorance to allow a signal in their community to work part time. At the intersection of CR 509 and Market Street the old one headed signal that was there up until Union County replaced all of the signals on CR 509 in Kenilworth was part time during the week. When the signal did not need to be operational, it was turned completely off! It was not flashing, but completely OUT! It was a three way intersection where Market ended at CR 509, so Market did not need a Stop sign. So by common sense ruling, they did stop. On the county road, people are not stopping anyway, so they counted on this factor.
Now there is a fully operational signal there and upgraded with detector hoops to activate the signal when needed. This ceases the need to have a part time signal thanks to modern technoligy. I guess it was allowed, cause even in New Jersey back in earlier times allowed one way streets to the left to have two green arrows to denote which way you can go resulting in it being green to the left on a one way to the left. This made confusion cause now a green left arrow means its fully protected from the on coming traffic and when left turn signals became popular NJ was forced to abandoned the arrows for ball greens instead. Times have changed and maybe that was why Kenilworth was allowed to do this.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on June 04, 2011, 05:34:56 PM
Quote from: NE2 on June 04, 2011, 04:55:46 PM
It seems like they could use electromagnets to keep them folded.
I had this idea too. You wouldn't need a significant amount of current either.
I've had a similar thought. Something like electromagnets might work if there was a relatively inexpensive way to set it up.
Yeah, after a hurricane, things get a little hairy (especially at night) in terms of missing or broken signals. If the intersection is buy enough, usually the yield to the right rule takes effect. Some signals default to yellow/red flashing, but since most people never see that type of traffic control device in urban areas, some people treat them also as 4-way stops (which can be infuriating).
Ironically, at least two rather busy Intersections near my house seem to function better (in terms of total waiting time to get through the intersection, also based on the assumption that most people follow the rules in time) seemed to operate more smoothly as 4-way, unpatrolled stops rather than the usual logjam created by red lights. Never would have imagined that...
Quote from: formulanone on June 06, 2011, 03:26:25 PM
Yeah, after a hurricane, things get a little hairy (especially at night) in terms of missing or broken signals. If the intersection is buy enough, usually the yield to the right rule takes effect. Some signals default to yellow/red flashing, but since most people never see that type of traffic control device in urban areas, some people treat them also as 4-way stops (which can be infuriating).
Ironically, at least two rather busy Intersections near my house seem to function better (in terms of total waiting time to get through the intersection, also based on the assumption that most people follow the rules in time) seemed to operate more smoothly as 4-way, unpatrolled stops rather than the usual logjam created by red lights. Never would have imagined that...
I think that's why roundabouts work so amazingly well once the locals get used to them. None of that annoying stopping when there is no need to.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on June 06, 2011, 10:45:02 PM
I think that's why roundabouts work so amazingly well once the locals get used to them. None of that annoying stopping when there is no need to.
That's not how my town uses roundabouts. Where I live, the city has installed a few roundabouts in residential neighborhoods as a means of slowing down traffic. The intersection is governed by a 4-way stop so one must stop before navigating the roundabout.
If I'm not mistaken, the on and off ramps at the I-80/CA-89 interchange in Truckee utilize roundabouts and in this case, only YIELD signs are posted so traffic exiting and entering I-80 can do so without stopping if traffic is light.
^^ Those are likely "traffic calming islands" instead of roundabouts. They serve to slow traffic down instead of providing an operational benefit. I know Madison, Wisconsin uses traffic calming islands extensively in their residential areas... and they drive me nuts!
Wisconsin also installs the folded up stop signs for use when the signal is out, but the signs must also be manually opened.
Quote from: myosh_tino on June 07, 2011, 03:43:39 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 06, 2011, 10:45:02 PM
I think that's why roundabouts work so amazingly well once the locals get used to them. None of that annoying stopping when there is no need to.
That's not how my town uses roundabouts. Where I live, the city has installed a few roundabouts in residential neighborhoods as a means of slowing down traffic. The intersection is governed by a 4-way stop so one must stop before navigating the roundabout.
Even "mini-roundabouts" used for traffic calming in neighborhoods should be yield control. That's MUTCD standard.
Quote
If I'm not mistaken, the on and off ramps at the I-80/CA-89 interchange in Truckee utilize roundabouts and in this case, only YIELD signs are posted so traffic exiting and entering I-80 can do so without stopping if traffic is light.
You are not mistaken.
Quote from: twinsfan87 on June 07, 2011, 10:31:03 AM
^^ Those are likely "traffic calming islands" instead of roundabouts. They serve to slow traffic down instead of providing an operational benefit. I know Madison, Wisconsin uses traffic calming islands extensively in their residential areas... and they drive me nuts!
These "driver angering devices", er, uh, "traffic calming islands" are showing up more and more in Phoenix neighborhoods. There's a relatively new one just a few blocks from my apartment.
Roundabouts = Poor man's ess-bends. I usually welcome them.
Quote from: roadfro on June 08, 2011, 02:55:51 AM
Even "mini-roundabouts" used for traffic calming in neighborhoods should be yield control. That's MUTCD standard.
Which version. If you're talking the 2009 version, then it's a moot point for now since California has not adopted the 2009 MUTCD.
I'm looking right now to see what the 2010 California MUTCD says about roundabouts.Hmmm.... the two figures for roundabouts in the 2010 California MUTCD show Yield signs. There is no mention of stop signs at all.
Anyways, here's one of the intersections that uses a traffic-calming mini-roundabout with stop signs...
http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cupertino,+ca&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.001301,62.578125&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cupertino,+Santa+Clara,+California&ll=37.324398,-122.019644&spn=0.000869,0.000955&t=h&z=20
So at one of those goofy mini roundabouts controlled by stop signs - who has priority? Is it first there / yield to the right like at a normal 4-way stop, or is it yield to the left like at a normal yield-controlled roundabout?
Quote from: realjd on June 09, 2011, 10:01:21 AM
So at one of those goofy mini roundabouts controlled by stop signs - who has priority? Is it first there / yield to the right like at a normal 4-way stop, or is it yield to the left like at a normal yield-controlled roundabout?
my guess would be to yield to those already within the circle.
I've never believed in the rule of "yield to those to the right when two cars arrive simultaneously", because the word "simultaneously" implies you didn't measure accurately enough. there's
always someone who arrives first. generally, I try to "lose" at 4-way stops just to avoid that sort of conflict, timing my arrival to be clearly later than someone else and expecting them to go first.
I thought this thread was going to be about traffic signals that are non-operational because they're decomissioned. I know of some at an intersection in Mount Vernon, New York that I took some pictures of back in April 2011.
I have not seen any since I left New Jersey over 20 years ago. The MUCTD is currentlycracking down on places that turn off signals completely when they are not needed or obsolete. I am suprised that there are still some left. I do know that in Sandy Hook, NJ at the old Fort Hancock guard house there is one, but it is used not for normal traffic control. If there is a guard on duty, it would be red for motorists to STOP and the gate monitor would change the light to green when cleared. The yellow, I do not know what it would be needed for, although at one time I did see it flash back in the 90's during the Summer beach season. This would be exempt from MUTCD guidelines anyway, but it is still there as I saw it not to long ago.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 11, 2010, 11:11:56 AM
Quote from: Coelacanth on November 11, 2010, 10:11:23 AM
If an intersection has a completely non-functioning signal, it is treated as an uncontrolled intersection.
what kind of shit law is that? other states seem to be more sensible in that they revert a non-functional signal into a four-way stop. The words "uncontrolled intersection" are just asking for a horrific wreck and, by extension, a delicious lawsuit.
I live right near a 6-way intersection, and once when the stoplights went out it turned into Mogadishu. Nobody cares about your quaint notions of laws when they are living beyond the thunderdome :)
Quote from: flowmotion on July 09, 2012, 03:14:20 AM
I live right near a 6-way intersection, and once when the stoplights went out it turned into Mogadishu. Nobody cares about your quaint notions of laws when they are living beyond the thunderdome :)
Costanza!!! (http://www.hark.com/clips/pbrvlpsnyr-its-like-thunderdome)
What is it with people who arrive at an intersection with dark signals and think that they can blow through and everyone else will yield to them? They seriously can't figure out that someone coming the other way might be thinking the same?
Quote from: PurdueBill on July 09, 2012, 11:44:57 AM
What is it with people who arrive at an intersection with dark signals and think that they can blow through and everyone else will yield to them? They seriously can't figure out that someone coming the other way might be thinking the same?
Perhaps it's
because everyone else
will yield to them. When everyone is at a standstill, and no one knows exactly what to do, of course there's going to be one guy who just goes for it anyway.
It's like rolling up to a four-way stop where there are three other drivers already stopped, trying to figure out who goes first. What do you do? Wait until they figure it out with head nods and finger waves, and let all three go through? I don't. I just go. Screw it. :evilgrin:
Quote from: Bickendan on December 22, 2010, 05:45:08 AMThis is why at all Portland roundabouts and traffic circles, stop signs are used.
You mean, at the ONE true traffic circle (the "Joan of Arc" circle on 39th Avenue and Glisan Street (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Portland,+OR&hl=en&ll=45.526006,-122.622893&spn=0.005044,0.011362&sll=45.551383,-123.064728&sspn=0.040571,0.090895&hnear=Portland,+Multnomah,+Oregon&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.525905,-122.623&panoid=ZAnQptSU8vOcwnb3J2G70A&cbp=12,22.77,,0,4.16))?
All of the other Portland "roundabouts" are nothing more than a big concrete planter placed in what was previous an intersection, with only stop signs on one street. Outside of Portland, I see yield signs (mostly Washington County (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hillsboro,+OR&hl=en&ll=45.551323,-123.064299&spn=0.040571,0.090895&sll=44.931705,-122.983241&sspn=0.010254,0.022724&hnear=Hillsboro,+Washington,+Oregon&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=45.551388,-123.064688&panoid=8cuJ-dev71W_LGYjpXjVSw&cbp=12,108.78,,0,6.8), but also in downtown Vancouver).
When I lived in Kalispell, MT we had a power outage and all the lights went dark.
I tried to treat a particular, busy intersection in the heart of downtown as a 4-way stop. Nearly got rear-ended. When I finally went, nearly got hit by another car.
I e-mailed the local police department. The Chief of Police replied and said "We didn't have any wrecks so we are happy with how motorists treated the situation."
Why there is a police department in that town, I am not quite sure why.
Quote from: kphoger on July 10, 2012, 09:57:06 PM
Perhaps it's because everyone else will yield to them. When everyone is at a standstill, and no one knows exactly what to do, of course there's going to be one guy who just goes for it anyway.
It's like rolling up to a four-way stop where there are three other drivers already stopped, trying to figure out who goes first. What do you do? Wait until they figure it out with head nods and finger waves, and let all three go through? I don't. I just go. Screw it. :evilgrin:
I guess what I am thinking is whether it occurs to them that maybe someone else will come another direction and not see them? Seems pretty risky, but I guess they are willing to take the risk.
Back in March when I was in San Diego, on a Saturday morning there was some problem with many of the downtown traffic signals and they seemed relatively prompt in getting stop signs on barricades set out, with police at intersections involving trolleys. Early in the morning before the signs were in place, traffic did seem to be treating the dark signals as stop signs, but of course this was Saturday morning. If it were a Monday morning traffic situation, who knows what would have happened.
During the widespread power outages here in the DC area last week after the big storm on June 29, the police had blocked off portions of certain intersections to force traffic to make right turns or the like. At some others they'd put up portable stop signs. I can think of one "dark intersection" where I slowed slightly on approach and then blew threw it when I saw that (a) the road intersecting from my left had barriers set up to force traffic to turn right, (b) nobody was coming from that direction anyway, and (c) I already knew that nobody would be coming from the right because that direction is a military base entrance that isn't open on Sundays. I think in that sort of situation it's reasonable to blow through without stopping.
But as a general matter, the people who disturb me are the ones who don't slow at all. I agree with the general principle "kphoger" cites about how if the other drivers can't seem to figure out whose turn it is, you take charge and go yourself. But I think only a fool would not at least be prepared to come to a complete stop at a "dark intersection." Put differently, who wants to have his car wrecked? Even if it's my turn to go, I'm not going to drive out in front of an Escalade bearing down on me at 50 mph. It's like the principle I've always thought applies to riding a bike on the road and having the "right" to expect drivers to yield to you: What good is being "right" if you're "dead right"?
ODOT has recently started installing signals with reflective yellow borders around them. This is a good thing, because otherwise, a non-energized signal would be completely invisible at night.
Quote from: vtk on July 12, 2012, 09:44:39 PM
ODOT has recently started installing signals with reflective yellow borders around them. This is a good thing, because otherwise, a non-energized signal would be completely invisible at night.
Not all the approaches get the reflective borders though. The replacement on OH 18 from Fairlawn to Medina last year involved reflective borders on the signals on 18 but not the cross streets, and even some on 18 did not get borders (who knows why). With the new all-black housings, the new signals are virtually invisible if dark without the reflective frame. What I don't know is if maybe the new signals have battery backup.
I know that the city of Fairlawn upgraded signals in the city at several key busy intersections to LED from incandescent a couple years ago and installed battery backup for the signals to run in a blackout. (Several other intersections still run incandescents, though--without backup so they are simply dark in an outage, but these are the lower-volume intersections with less risk of crazy maneuvers. One nice thing about the non-upgraded intersections is that they kept their incandescent worded pedestrian signals; the upgraded corners got new symbolic walk signals.)
On the section of 18 mentioned above, no cross streets (except OH 94, I think) got frames around the new signals because 18 runs east-west and suffers more from sun glare. The invisible-in-outage issue was probably never high on ODOT's list of issues though.
It makes me wonder, why not a surface that looks black but reflects white (like in the old "stealth" nighttime speed limit signs) that borders the circular sections of the signals, so at least in an outage at night the signal would reflect as three circles? For somewhere not requiring backplates for sun glare (and the extra wind load of the backplates), the reflective surface could signal the presence of the traffic light. When the lights are operational, the bright signal circles would probably drown out most of the visible reflection of the outlines of the circles.
Quote from: vtk on July 12, 2012, 09:44:39 PM
ODOT has recently started installing signals with reflective yellow borders around them. This is a good thing, because otherwise, a non-energized signal would be completely invisible at night.
Indeed. I actually ended up blowing through a dark signal a few nights ago because I couldn't see it until I was right under it.
Thankfully, it was for a parking lot, not a cross street, and there was no traffic because all the businesses were closed...
New York, for it's part, does not have a "4-way stop" law, for the simple reason that many signalized intersections don't have four approaches. It simply has a "stop" law, which means that a dark signal equals a STOP sign and that standard right-of-way applies, but it only pertains to intersections, so it would be legal to blow through a dark signal at, say, a pedestrian crossing. The law also covers signals that are malfunctioning in a manner other than just being dark, so that crazy super-fast cycling in the Ohio video upthread would presumably apply there as well.
As for my own concern of being rear-ended when I stop for a dark signal, fully expecting to be the only driver to do so, I just put on my hazard flashers. Dark signals are hard to see if there's a full power outage, and I've been caught off guard even in neighborhoods I'm familiar with by some of them. Blackouts are disorienting!
Quote from: empirestate on July 13, 2012, 08:47:03 AM....
As for my own concern of being rear-ended when I stop for a dark signal, fully expecting to be the only driver to do so, I just put on my hazard flashers. Dark signals are hard to see if there's a full power outage, and I've been caught off guard even in neighborhoods I'm familiar with by some of them. Blackouts are disorienting!
That sounds like an excellent idea and I might start doing it too. Thanks for the tip. I already do that if I'm on the highway and I find I have to slow suddenly, say because of congestion or debris in the road (example: big piece of tire tread in the road and I can't change lanes to avoid it so I slow down to work my way around it), and I want to draw extra attention to the fact that I'm slowing abruptly.