http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101207/CARNEWS/101209926#ixzz17TbXV3JK (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101207/CARNEWS/101209926#ixzz17TbXV3JK) Also see the link to 15 Most Dangerous Places To Drive on Earth
What a crappy list.
Heh, good to see some I-80 in Wyoming love. I maintain that I-80 from Laramie to Cheyenne is the most challenging stretch of interstate in the country in bad conditions (having admittedly not driven every mile of interstate in the country in bad conditions)- I can't really imagine how a road could get any worse- there's often snow, snow drifts, high winds, and fog simultaneously.
I lost my BACK windshield while driving down I-80 back from Cheyenne in a snowstorm last June (!). It was snowing, but the winds were gusting to 70 and a large rock somehow got airborne and carried to my back windshield, shattering it on impact
I do agree with #1.
the first time I drove US-550 was at 2am on a December night in a whiteout blizzard.
the second time, it was clogged to the gills with RVs on an average Labor Day weekend.
that second time, indeed, was a harrowing drive.
I agree it is not a very good list. US 40 Rabbit Ears pass? I have actually driven that and, aside from the total lack of power at high altitude, it is not difficult.
I-15 through Nevada...really?!?
QuoteI agree it is not a very good list. US 40 Rabbit Ears pass? I have actually driven that and, aside from the total lack of power at high altitude, it is not difficult.
Like I-80 in Wyoming, that one only really applies seasonally. Try driving it in the winter- it gets pretty rough- lots of tourists who don't know what they're doing and generally bad road surface conditions coupled with moderate wind can make it an adventure. Top 15 bad drives in America rough though? I'm not so sure about that- if we're allowing for bad seasonal conditions, I'd say Emigrant Hill on I-84 in Oregon is scarier during a snowstorm, among others
I greatly object to the principle of Emigrant Hill. In this country we put 35 MPH mountain crossings in the middle of 70 MPH Interstate instead of providing an appropriate combination of tunnels and high-level viaducts to maintain the 70 MPH design speed through the mountains. It is a bit like having a freight terminal straddling the Interstate itself.
Quote from: roadfro on December 08, 2010, 04:22:49 AM
I-15 through Nevada...really?!?
They are not kidding. :no: In fact, I-15 in both Nevada and California were featured in
Dangerous Drives on the Speed channel IIRC.
Quote from: The Premier on December 08, 2010, 01:54:35 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 08, 2010, 04:22:49 AM
I-15 through Nevada...really?!?
They are not kidding. :no: In fact, I-15 in both Nevada and California were featured in Dangerous Drives on the Speed channel IIRC.
IIRC, they were covering I-15 between the L.A. Basin and Las Vegas and it was a holiday weekend (4th of July). That road, high speeds, unpredictable weather and drunk holiday revelers is a very bad mix.
Anyways, #1 on that list, US 550, the Million Dollar Highway, was also featured on
Dangerous Drives
I've done 117 mph on I-15 and been passed on both sides.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 08, 2010, 02:21:24 PM
I've done 117 mph on I-15 and been passed on both sides.
Seriously? Wow! :-o
I typically go between 70 and 80 on I-15 but I stay in the right lane except to pass slower traffic like trucks and campers. Being passed by someone doing 90+ is pretty common.
I tend to go about 79mph on I-15, but I have done the San Diego to Vegas run in 3 hours and 40 minutes...
Quote from: corco on December 08, 2010, 09:21:29 AM
QuoteI agree it is not a very good list. US 40 Rabbit Ears pass? I have actually driven that and, aside from the total lack of power at high altitude, it is not difficult.
Like I-80 in Wyoming, that one only really applies seasonally. Try driving it in the winter- it gets pretty rough- lots of tourists who don't know what they're doing and generally bad road surface conditions coupled with moderate wind can make it an adventure. Top 15 bad drives in America rough though? I'm not so sure about that- if we're allowing for bad seasonal conditions, I'd say Emigrant Hill on I-84 in Oregon is scarier during a snowstorm, among others
Going up or down?
Quote from: JNWinklerI greatly object to the principle of Emigrant Hill. In this country we put 35 MPH mountain crossings in the middle of 70 MPH Interstate instead of providing an appropriate combination of tunnels and high-level viaducts to maintain the 70 MPH design speed through the mountains. It is a bit like having a freight terminal straddling the Interstate itself.
To be fair for Emigrant Hill, the limit drops from 65 to 50 going up, with advisory speeds at each switchback.
Quote from: Bickendan on December 08, 2010, 08:11:21 PM
To be fair for Emigrant Hill, the limit drops from 65 to 50 going up, with advisory speeds at each switchback.
that's ridiculous. the speed limit should stay 65. (or, given that it's quite rural, it should be 90, or at the very least 75, but that is neither here nor there.) if you have a Z3 and can take the curves doing 80, then you should not be prevented from doing so.
I am assuming they are talking about I-10 at the 610 West Loop on Houston's West side...
I've not driven Cabbage Hill, but at least it's got a third lane on ascent, so it's one step ahead of I-82 between Ellensburg and Yakima, WA. I drove that stretch quite a bit when I was going to CWU for my master's degree . . . 3 summits with 6% grades on a 35-mile stretch. It's a 70 zone, though to be fair, it's not quite as sharply-curved or as high in elevation as Cabbage Hill. Arguably, between the lack of an additional climbing lane, the crazy Yakima drivers and all the trucks going 20, it's right up there with the worst of them. WSDOT's been talking about adding a third lane up Manastash Ridge out of Ellensburg for several years now, but there's not been any funding allocated to it for just as long.
In terms of "challenging roads", I'm surprised OR-242 (the old McKenzie Pass Highway) doesn't get more credit. I drove that one back in October . . . that is one screwed up little road. It's almost entirely 15mph hairpins, with few guardrails and barely enough room for 2 lanes. And when it's not closed down for snow, as is the case most of the year, it gets a fair bit of traffic from its "scenic route" destination.
-Alex (Tarkus)
Quote from: Tarkus on December 09, 2010, 12:01:02 AMArguably, between the lack of an additional climbing lane, the crazy Yakima drivers and all the trucks going 20, it's right up there with the worst of them.
speaking of absurdly slow trucks and the lack of a climbing lane - the Grapevine, aka I-5 just north of Los Angeles. Even with the full four lanes in each direction, it is simply miserable. There are signs saying "slow trucks" but the message is insufficiently emphasized: unless you have a full and clear idea of what you are doing, you should
never get into the #4 lane: around the next curve will be a truck that you will collide with while going 60-80mph relatively faster. Then in the #3 lane there are trucks doing 18 passing the trucks doing 12. Another deathtrap. And the #2 lane is filled with people driving shitbox 1986 Yugo subcompacts, doing 36 passing the lanes doing 18 and 12.
Only in the #1 lane do you have a reasonable hope of speed, and even then maintaining even the prescribed speed limit of 65 consistently is an extreme challenge. Only once have I done the entire climb without dropping below 65mph, and that was at 2 in the morning. Every damn last other time, there was always at least one barely-mobile strategically-distributed accumulation of brick shithouses to clog things up.
And, like I said, that is with four lanes available. In 2005, a landslide washed out a section of I-5 and the temporary repair resulted in two maleficent new misfeatures.
Southbound, there is the single most dangerous on-ramp on the interstate highway system in the US: Templin Highway, with a full
stop sign as opposed to a yield, and a merge point with maybe 50 feet of visibility - and vehicles in the #4 lane doing anywhere from 20 to 110 down the hill, and you never know what you're going to get. If you have a car with a 0-60 time of over maybe 3.5 seconds, you are going to get creamed and literally never see it coming.
the other danger is that northbound in the same area, there is a section of only three lanes. Yep, what I said about the #2 lane above suddenly applies to
all lanes because Cal Division of Highways saw fit to never bother to repair the #1 lane. Oh they've got plenty of money to tear down perfectly functional porcelain signs on the 110 and the roads it intersects with, and replace them with retroreflective monstrosities, just because some assclown of a senator decided to rename the Pasadena Freeway to a Parkway... but actual road maintenance? Hah! The last thing on their minds.
^Now that really takes the cake, I'd say. 4 lanes in each direction and it's still a clusterbleep . . .
That sort of stuff is exactly why we should be pulling more people over for impeding rather than speeding. I think it would really be a good common sense measure to put minimum speeds on left lanes of freeways. If the slowpokes with crapwagons and harebrained truckers want to/need to drive 60mph under the speed limit, they need to learn to stay to the right and out of the way, so folks who can drive a reasonable speed can get through.
-Alex (Tarkus)
Quote from: Tarkus on December 09, 2010, 01:47:01 AMI think it would really be a good common sense measure to put minimum speeds on left lanes of freeways.
Some places do. I think I-40 in New Mexico has a minimum speed of 55 in the left lane.
but, still, that is 55mph. When highways are built for 90 and cars for 140, 55 is still pathetic. Indeed, people need to be pulled over for setting up unfavorable speed differentials. If you don't want to go ...
stay home.
I'm all for prosecuting drivers who have demonstrated their general incompetence. If you cause a wreck, your speed should be seriously considered. But, if you can do hundreds of thousands of miles without screwing up, then the fact that you're getting to Point B with an alacrity should be commended, not prosecuted. We need significantly harsher penalties for causing a wreck (loss of license, etc) and significantly less for being at the wrong speed at the wrong time.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 09, 2010, 12:33:49 AMOh they've got plenty of money to tear down perfectly functional porcelain signs on the 110 and the roads it intersects with, and replace them with retroreflective monstrosities, just because some assclown of a senator decided to rename the Pasadena Freeway to a Parkway... but actual road maintenance? Hah! The last thing on their minds.
You exaggerate. The Arroyo Seco Parkway signing contract only cost about $1 million and was in the works for 10 years. To compare, do you know how much it cost just to do slope stabilization on the Grapevine portion of I-5? $30 million. Yes, $30 million.
Quote from: Tarkus on December 09, 2010, 12:01:02 AMIn terms of "challenging roads", I'm surprised OR-242 (the old McKenzie Pass Highway) doesn't get more credit. I drove that one back in October . . . that is one screwed up little road. It's almost entirely 15mph hairpins, with few guardrails and barely enough room for 2 lanes.
I believe I have driven it as well. From memory, it also passes through lava fields and the narrow lanes are accompanied by steep, knife-sharp side slopes. (Or am I remembering the Santiam Pass highway?)
In regard to Emigrant Hill, there is a black-on-yellow sign at the top (near the brake check area) which spells out advisory speeds for trucks by weight. This speed table sign is standard provision at mountain pass crossings on Interstates in Oregon (I-5 Siskiyou Pass has one too), but is not in the national
MUTCD (I don't know if it also appears in the Oregon sign policy). From memory, the Emigrant Hill speed table goes under 20 MPH for the heaviest weights--maybe even under 15 MPH.
Here is the one for Siskiyou Pass:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabre-roads.org.uk%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2F4%2F45%2FOre-dot-hill-speed-sign-siskiyou-summit.gif&hash=48bb3ed60263dcfe3186ee9879227708eb0410bd)
What's fun about those signs is that on the downhill side of the freeway, both I-5 going down the Siskiyous and I-84 down Emigrant Hill, it's only two lanes, so all the semis will be crowding the right lane with the emergency blinkers flashing, and regular traffic coasting (or riding the brakes) down the hill... oh wait, there's a semi passing a slower semi in the left lane. This naturally affects I-5 far more than I-84, though.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 09, 2010, 03:53:01 AM
You exaggerate. The Arroyo Seco Parkway signing contract only cost about $1 million and was in the works for 10 years. To compare, do you know how much it cost just to do slope stabilization on the Grapevine portion of I-5? $30 million. Yes, $30 million.
then find 30 porky projects of little use other than to make us feel pretty, and divert the funds. This is California; I am sure there are thirty, or even three hundred, projects like this on the books.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 09, 2010, 03:53:01 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabre-roads.org.uk%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2F4%2F45%2FOre-dot-hill-speed-sign-siskiyou-summit.gif&hash=48bb3ed60263dcfe3186ee9879227708eb0410bd)
does that table extrapolate? if not, explain why I have, on more than one occasion, gotten passed by an untrailered tractor doing 120+ down the hill. Not Siskiyou specifically, but I-40 heading out of Flagstaff, I-15 from CA into Nevada, etc.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 09, 2010, 10:38:43 AMthen find 30 porky projects of little use other than to make us feel pretty, and divert the funds. This is California; I am sure there are thirty, or even three hundred, projects like this on the books.
These are all the projects Caltrans currently has advertised:
Attachment B (http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/esc/oe/weekly_ads/attach_b.php)--advertised before this Monday
Attachment A (http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/esc/oe/weekly_ads/attach_a.php)--advertised this Monday
Care to identify any projects which Caltrans should not be doing?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 09, 2010, 10:40:09 AMdoes that table extrapolate? if not, explain why I have, on more than one occasion, gotten passed by an untrailered tractor doing 120+ down the hill. Not Siskiyou specifically, but I-40 heading out of Flagstaff, I-15 from CA into Nevada, etc.
Short answer--no. The sign drawing itself does not say (that information tends to be buried in a sign data table on a separate sheet), but this sign has a yellow background, so it is advisory. Lighter vehicles are presumably subject to the regulatory speed limit on the downgrade.
Of somewhat more interest is the basis for computation of the advisory speed figures. As far as I can tell, they embody an assumed power-to-gross-weight-rating ratio. Power is force times speed, the force in this scenario being tare weight of the vehicle plus cargo weight. I suspect the purpose of the speed table is to discourage trucks of the assumed power-to-GVWR ratio from approaching the start of the downslope at speeds too high for the engine to suppress further acceleration due to gravity.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 09, 2010, 12:07:51 PM
Care to identify any projects which Caltrans should not be doing?
any that involve sign replacement.
seriously, I can see many that are of a lower priority than I-5. Repaving I-80 through Alameda County, for instance. The current paving is not spectacular, but to save $12.3 million dollars, I wouldn't hesitate to declare it to be at least adequate. The ride's a bit rough, but no one is getting creamed by sudden 80mph speed differentials.
I-5 over the Grapevine is a major transportation corridor, and its current condition (especially the Templin on-ramp) is
harrowing.
I'd even close the Templin southbound on-ramp entirely. Not sure how critical it is to the fire department - if it is so, I'd put up an "emergency vehicles only" sign. I know I'm never taking that ramp ever again; but who's to prevent the next unsuspecting yutz from doing so when they pull off the highway to fix a flat and then figure getting back on southbound is perfectly safe. Surprise, you're dead!
Quote from: myosh_tino on December 08, 2010, 02:18:44 PM
Quote from: The Premier on December 08, 2010, 01:54:35 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 08, 2010, 04:22:49 AM
I-15 through Nevada...really?!?
They are not kidding. :no: In fact, I-15 in both Nevada and California were featured in Dangerous Drives on the Speed channel IIRC.
IIRC, they were covering I-15 between the L.A. Basin and Las Vegas and it was a holiday weekend (4th of July). That road, high speeds, unpredictable weather and drunk holiday revelers is a very bad mix.
Anyways, #1 on that list, US 550, the Million Dollar Highway, was also featured on Dangerous Drives
Exactly. This is why CA-138 between Palmdale and Victorville is one of the most dangerous highways in the state. Even though it's almost a straight line, it's narrow, suffers from poor visibility and has many drunk driver, thus it's seen many fatalities and now requires your headlight to be on all the time.
I-15 is the same. It's the only highway between L.A. and Vegas and thus is the only route one can take, so it's often full of traffic and drunk drivers.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 09, 2010, 02:20:25 PMany that involve sign replacement.
I actually wish they would do more sign replacements, but they have done fewer than 20 (at least by contract) in the last 10 years, and of those only four or five (not the Arroyo Seco job) qualify as major. It looks like we can both be equally unhappy with Caltrans for different reasons.
Quoteseriously, I can see many that are of a lower priority than I-5. Repaving I-80 through Alameda County, for instance. The current paving is not spectacular, but to save $12.3 million, I wouldn't hesitate to declare it to be at least adequate.
It depends. It can be highly uneconomic not to do pavement preservation before it falls apart completely.
QuoteI-5 over the Grapevine is a major transportation corridor, and its current condition (especially the Templin on-ramp) is harrowing.
I'd even close the Templin southbound on-ramp entirely. Not sure how critical it is to the fire department - if it is so, I'd put up an "emergency vehicles only" sign. I know I'm never taking that ramp ever again; but who's to prevent the next unsuspecting yutz from doing so when they pull off the highway to fix a flat and then figure getting back on southbound is perfectly safe. Surprise, you're dead!
Is it really that bad? I would expect there to be a shoulder that could be used as an extension of the ramp.
The Old Road (or the Ridge Route) just north of the Templin Hwy. offramp is so bad that you can see it from the freeway. Looks like it hasn't been paved in a half century.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 09, 2010, 03:36:58 PM
I actually wish they would do more sign replacements, but they have done fewer than 20 (at least by contract) in the last 10 years, and of those only four or five (not the Arroyo Seco job) qualify as major. It looks like we can both be equally unhappy with Caltrans for different reasons.
then why are signs vanishing left and right? I can name hundreds of porcelain signs that have vanished in the last 10 years.
QuoteIs it really that bad? I would expect there to be a shoulder that could be used as an extension of the ramp.
it is really that bad. 200 feet and the jersey barrier closes in. there is no right shoulder on that section of I-5 - they had the choice of placing either a right shoulder, or a fourth lane.
I'd pull up a satellite view except for no discernible reason, my google maps is acting stupid and has been so for the last few months. I think it's because I'm using 17.8 GB of gmail storage. (Don't ask.)
The situation crossing over the Tejon Pass on I-5 is exactly as awful as described here. That is a ~40 mile stretch of roadway that I deliberately try to cross between midnight and 6 AM to avoid exactly the dangerous conditions mentioned here. Traveling at that hour also avoids the excruciating rolling roadblocks that happen up and down I-5 between Wheeler Ridge and I-580. The combination of a split speed limit and people who set their cruise control at 70 and then park themselves in the left lane for 200 miles is enough to make anybody's blood boil.
I think this is what agentsteel is referring to: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=templin+highway+california&sll=37.09024,-112.5&sspn=55.411532,94.042969&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Templin+Hwy,+Castaic,+Los+Angeles,+California+91384&ll=34.566262,-118.685686&spn=0.001789,0.00287&t=h&z=19
You can see how the Jersey barriers are sort of oddly set up.
And here's a pic of the southbound Templin Hwy. onramp:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg683.imageshack.us%2Fimg683%2F3043%2Ftemplinhwy.png&hash=2028207c4fe90157f65928d5e50699affebdf46e) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/templinhwy.png/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
I tend to avoid I-5 between Wheeler Ridge and Sacramento. 99 is pretty awful too, but at least there are some sections with six lanes each way. Also, much more historically interesting route, and, oh yeah, more gas stations.
and if I am heading to the Bay Area, I tend to take 101. Ever since they pulled the traffic lights around Gilroy-ish, it's been quite a decent drive. (But, like with the I-5 Templin on-ramp, there are some places where you do not want to re-enter the freeway without a Ferrari.)
I was on 99 a few weeks back and almost the entire portion from Wheeler Ridge to at least CA-198 is six lanes and lets you go 70 now, they've clearly made a lot of improvements in preparation for Interstate designation. The segment through Bakersfield is still 55, though.
Quote from: Quillz on December 09, 2010, 06:34:23 PM
I was on 99 a few weeks back and almost the entire portion from Wheeler Ridge to at least CA-198 is six lanes and lets you go 70 now, they've clearly made a lot of improvements in preparation for Interstate designation. The segment through Bakersfield is still 55, though.
I think there's a few two-lane sections as far south as Earlimart or so, no? Maybe just in one direction. Southbound I remember coming upon a surprising number of two-lane sections in September or so.
also, the southernmost porcelain sign on 99 is now somewhere around the 140, I believe. (And Mr. Winkler claims California has had maybe 10 signage replacements in the last 10 years! Apparently single projects have scopes of "everything on 99 must go".)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 09, 2010, 05:45:26 PMthen why are signs vanishing left and right? I can name hundreds of porcelain signs that have vanished in the last 10 years.
Some of the contracts have been fairly large. For example, there was one contract which changed out a lot of (perhaps the majority?) of freeway guide signs in San Mateo County. There were a couple in District 8 (Riverside and San Bernardino counties) which cleaned out the desert parts of I-10, I-15, and I-40. Reaching way back in time, there was a job in 2002 or 2003 which changed out a lot of the guide signs on I-5 and I-805 in District 11. Plus I think there has been one fairly large job in District 5.
To go in depth on just one example: one of the District 8 contracts had 38 sign panel design sheets with 4 signs shown on most sheets. That's approximately 150 signs right there.
Even then Caltrans is parsimonious. The typical Arizona DOT guide sign rehabilitation contract has 50 sign design sheets, with more than four sign designs on about one-third of the sheets, and Arizona DOT averages out at two sign rehabilitations per year for a much smaller total mileage of freeway. I have seen multiple TxDOT sign rehabilitation contracts with over 100 sign design sheets.
In regard to the signs on SR 99, I have been told that District 6 opted to do most of its sign replacements in-house instead of advertising them for construction. My source for this information had to obtain the drawings for them on paper (they were not electronically available).
Quoteit is really that bad. 200 feet and the jersey barrier closes in. there is no right shoulder on that section of I-5 - they had the choice of placing either a right shoulder, or a fourth lane.
Might it have been fixed in the recent past? (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=templin+highway+california&sll=37.09024,-112.5&sspn=55.411532,94.042969&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Templin+Hwy,+Castaic,+Los+Angeles,+California+91384&ll=34.566542,-118.686147&spn=0.004559,0.009645&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.566542,-118.686147&panoid=JSu1MqfwBKD00x8dB8GLeQ&cbp=12,195.49,,0,8.2)
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 10, 2010, 04:11:48 AM
Some of the contracts have been fairly large. For example, there was one contract which changed out a lot of (perhaps the majority?) of freeway guide signs in San Mateo County.
Yup, yup, yup! A couple of years ago, all guide signs on I-280 and CA-92 and most signs on US 101 within San Mateo County were replaced with new reflective ones that included an exit number. IIRC, there are a handful of signs on 101 up by the San Francisco airport that were not replaced.
In Santa Clara county, most of the old "butterfly" sign trusses were replaced with new trusses that were located on the right shoulder of the freeway. I suspect this was done to clean up the gore points and improve safety on the freeway (not a good idea to have a substantial pole supporting an overhead sign structure in the gore point). Unfortunately that meant the loss of an outline US 101 shield on I-880 northbound at the First Street exit in San Jose and the loss of another outline US 101 shield on 101 northbound at the San Antonio Road exit in Palo Alto.
I also believe there was a major sign replacement project on I-580 from Oakland south to Castro Valley. I do remember there being a high number of butterfly trusses along that stretch of freeway so that could have been the reason for the sign replacement.
I've driven the top 3 (and a total of 6 on the list) and lived to tell about it. As I have always told people, If you have driven in Los Angeles, Chicago & Toronto without a scratch, than you are ready for anything! :)