In a few weeks, I'll be making my annual trek to southern Mississippi. As I often do, I am hoping to avoid Interstates as much as possible. Given that, I have a tentative routing of US 71 to Shreveport, US 80 to Jackson, MS (plus looking for a couple bridges near Vicksburg, MS), then south on US 49 to Hattiesburg (tracing some "forgotten" alignments along the way).
Coming home is where it gets fun! I have narrowed it to 3 options:
1) US 11 to US 90 near New Orleans, then old US 90 to Lafayette. From there, either US 167 or I-49 to Alexandira, US 167 to Ruston, US 80 back to Shreveport and US 71 back home. Estimated time 2-2 1/2 days.
2) US 98 from Hattiesburg to Pensacola, FL, then back west on US 90. Pick up US 11 near New Orleans, back to Hattiesburg, then west on US 98 to Natchez, MS. From Natchez, either US 65 or US 425 to Pine Bluff, then I-530 (or maybe AR 365) to Little Rock and I-40 back home. Estimated time 2-2 1/2 days.
3) "Best of Both Worlds": US 98 to Pensacola, US 90 to New Orleans, then old US 90 to Lafayette, then north to Alexandria, 167 to Ruston, 80 to Shreveport, then home on 71. Estimated time 3-3 1/2 days.
I'm leaning towards #2 or #3: I've never been to Florida and I've only been to Alabama once (spent a weekend in Cullman back in 2007).
Any "must see's" along either routing?
I don't know how you feel about road construction, but there's plenty of that to see on US 167 between Alexandria and Ruston (the TIMED projects to widen the road to divided 4-lane).
I know the bridges you seek on old 80--over the Big Black River east of Bovina--a DEFINITE MUST SEE!! Also, if u want to see another big bridge over the same river, turn right on Warriors Trail (just before you get to the Big Black River). There is a HUGE concrete arch bridge that carries the Kansas City Southern mainline over it. Watching a train go overhead on this structure is really awesome (to me anyway).
Quote from: US71 on January 23, 2011, 09:52:39 PM
...US 80 to Jackson, MS (plus looking for a couple bridges near Vicksburg, MS)...
I hope you're not thinking you can drive across the old MS River bridge, because it closed in 1993. On rare occasions it opens for pedestrian traffic, and it opens only to participants each year for the Run Through History. It is almost certain that unless you join that run, you won't make a direct visit to the old bridge.
Still, the old bridge is indeed a charmer and most certainly worth a special stop. You'll be able to get very close to it and study it. Some of the best views possible are available from the state's Welcome Center, including a central point between the old and new bridges. You should also drive a few hundred yards north, up Washington Street, to Riverfront Park, and see the view of both bridges from a beautiful bend in the river. You'll notice a high overlook above the park accessible from Washington Street as you enter the park. That overlook is also well worth a minute.
Quote...then south on US 49 to Hattiesburg...
If you like interesting old interchanges, don't miss the cloverleaf at US 11 in south H'burg. Also, the old alignments of 49 through Magee and Mendenhall are a nice diversion from the 4-lane road. You might want to turn east from the main 49 at Seminary, MS (a very short distance south of Collins) and see a stretch of what I believe is the first paved segment of Hwy 49 in Mississippi. As you cross the RR tracks, you can turn south onto the antique roadway.
I hope you enjoy your trip.
Quote from: cjk374 on January 23, 2011, 11:34:19 PM
Watching a train go overhead on this structure is really awesome (to me anyway).
Me, too! Wow, I haven't thought of that in many years, but I did that once a couple decades ago. Thanks for mentioning.
One of the worst highway disasters in MS history occurred at that Hwy 80 bridge in the early 1950s. During a nighttime, fog-laden heavy thunderstorm, an even older structure washed away. Weather conditions prevented motorists from noticing the missing bridge until it was too late. The carnage, from what I've read, was horrific.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/MS/MS19700114i1.jpg)
Laurel.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/MS/MS19610202i1.jpg)
Clinton.
I see the I-20 sign in Clinton fairly often, but I've never see the one in Laurel. Where exactly is it, please?
I mentioned Washington Street in Vicksburg a few minutes ago but forgot to point out, in case you didn't know, that Washington carried the earliest alignments of US 80 and 61 through a significant portion of this town. Clay Street, which intersects Washington at the center of downtown, was another segment of the same alignment for both highways.
Quote from: cjk374 on January 23, 2011, 11:34:19 PM
I know the bridges you seek on old 80--over the Big Black River east of Bovina--a DEFINITE MUST SEE!! Also, if u want to see another big bridge over the same river, turn right on Warriors Trail (just before you get to the Big Black River). There is a HUGE concrete arch bridge that carries the Kansas City Southern mainline over it. Watching a train go overhead on this structure is really awesome (to me anyway).
Slight correction: this is the "Meridian Speedway" from Meridian to Shreveport. KCS's main line goes south from Kansas City through Shreveport to Port Arthur.
Quote from: berberry on January 24, 2011, 10:37:22 AM
I hope you're not thinking you can drive across the old MS River bridge, because it closed in 1993. On rare occasions it opens for pedestrian traffic, and it opens only to participants each year for the Run Through History. It is almost certain that unless you join that run, you won't make a direct visit to the old bridge.
No, there are a couple bridges in town I'm looking for. Hall's Ferry Rd for one and I may go visit Fairground St again.
This my 5th annual trip to Mississippi. I've seen a lot, but always wind up missing something. I've been digging through some old DeLorme's trying to find stuff I've missed or creative ways of getting to where I'm going.
It was easy the first 3 years, but now I'm having to get more creative in my routings ;)
Quote from: US71 on January 24, 2011, 11:43:33 AM
No, there are a couple bridges in town I'm looking for. Hall's Ferry Rd for one and I may go visit Fairground St again.
My guess for your Halls Ferry destination would be the bridge at Confederate Avenue, which was originally part of the National Park. Beautiful old brick bridge, you'll love it: take the Halls Ferry (1C) exit from I-20 and turn north. It's about a half-mile to that bridge.
After seeing it, you really shouldn't miss another that's very nearby and just as beautiful, running over railroad tracks. It also once belonged to the park, but now it's a part of I-20 Frontage Road, of all things. This segment of the Frontage is not in view of the interstate. It's actually kinda secluded. From Halls Ferry where you're visiting the first bridge, take the ramp that runs up to Confederate Avenue and turn left. You'll pass over the first bridge and continue down a lovely old winding road for about a mile. When you come to a stop sign, you're at Frontage Road. I-20 is just out of sight to your left. Turn right, away from 20, and you'll soon see the other bridge. Cross over it and continue a hundred yards or so and you're back to Washington Street, directly across from the Riverfront Park, which I mentioned earlier.
QuoteIt was easy the first 3 years, but now I'm having to get more creative in my routings ;)
Yeah, and it takes a bit of extra time to follow old highways, but it's usually worth it. I love to do what you're doing, only somewhere else. I use these roads in Vicksburg so often I almost never think of their history, even though I know a fair amount about it.
QuoteI see the I-20 sign in Clinton fairly often, but I've never see the one in Laurel. Where exactly is it, please?
He won't tell you because he's afraid someone will either steal the sign or officials will take it down.
Regarding US71's proposed routings:
- MDOT has plans for a new interchange at US 49/MS 35, but I'm not sure if they've begun construction yet. In the meantime, it's a traffic signal.
- US 49's OLD old alignment goes east of Okatona Creek once you're south of Seminary. It can be difficult to follow as you approach Hattiesburg.
- At one point, old MS 42 through Petal was going to become MS 142. I don't think this has happened.
- Instead of 98 east from Hattiesburg, take one of the old 49 alignments (either old 49E or 49W) south. On the south side of Brooklyn, near an old, still-remaining truss bridge, is where the old 49E/49W split used to be. From Brooklyn, you can take county roads back to 98 at Beaumont or McLain....which would be more interesting than what I consider the boringness of MS 26 east of Wiggins.
- Construction's still underway on a new-alignment US 98 just east of the MS/AL state line.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2011, 12:12:19 PM
Instead of 98 east from Hattiesburg, take one of the old 49 alignments (either old 49E or 49W) south.
Are you sure? I'm thinking it must be plain ol' 49. Those E and W divided alignments, to my knowledge, never existed anywhere outside the Delta (towns of Yazoo City, Indianola, Greenwood, et. al.)
Quote from: berberry on January 24, 2011, 12:25:42 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2011, 12:12:19 PM
Instead of 98 east from Hattiesburg, take one of the old 49 alignments (either old 49E or 49W) south.
Are you sure? I'm thinking it must be plain ol' 49. Those E and W divided alignments, to my knowledge, never existed anywhere outside the Delta (towns of Yazoo City, Indianola, Greenwood, et. al.)
I just found some remnants south of Hattiesburg using the DeLorme atlas. I'll have to Google some it to get a better idea where they are.
Quote from: berberry on January 24, 2011, 11:06:18 AM
I see the I-20 sign in Clinton fairly often, but I've never see the one in Laurel. Where exactly is it, please?
See my site: www.alpsroads.net/roads/ms/us_11 - not too far down (you can explore my other MS pages for ideas too)
Quote from: berberry on January 24, 2011, 10:37:22 AM
Quote from: US71 on January 23, 2011, 09:52:39 PM
...US 80 to Jackson, MS (plus looking for a couple bridges near Vicksburg, MS)...
Still, the old bridge is indeed a charmer and most certainly worth a special stop. You'll be able to get very close to it and study it. Some of the best views possible are available from the state's Welcome Center, including a central point between the old and new bridges. You should also drive a few hundred yards north, up Washington Street, to Riverfront Park, and see the view of both bridges from a beautiful bend in the river. You'll notice a high overlook above the park accessible from Washington Street as you enter the park. That overlook is also well worth a minute.
I'm not sure you'll be able to stop at the Welcome Center. It was closed due for a major rebuilding when I was there in October. I heard a rumor (ONLY a rumor...nothing substantiated) that the Fairgrounds Bridge (I believe you're talking about the truss bridge over the rail yard) was slated for removal.
Quote from: cjk374 on January 23, 2011, 11:34:19 PM
I don't know how you feel about road construction, but there's plenty of that to see on US 167 between Alexandria and Ruston (the TIMED projects to widen the road to divided 4-lane).
I know the bridges you seek on old 80--over the Big Black River east of Bovina--a DEFINITE MUST SEE!! Also, if u want to see another big bridge over the same river, turn right on Warriors Trail (just before you get to the Big Black River). There is a HUGE concrete arch bridge that carries the Kansas City Southern mainline over it. Watching a train go overhead on this structure is really awesome (to me anyway).
I found Warriors Way bridge (WOW!) :
http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH9#JnE9LjMyJTQwMjM0NzU1JTJjKy05MCU0MDI3MDUyNyU3ZXNzdC4wJTdlcGcuMSZiYj01Ny4wMjQ1NTQ3MzAwODkxJTdlLTYwLjE3ODkzMjE4OTUlN2UxNS4xNzA2OTkwNDQzODI1JTdlLTEyOS4xNzMwNzI4MTQ1
BTW: it's the old ICG line ;)
QuoteAre you sure? I'm thinking it must be plain ol' 49. Those E and W divided alignments, to my knowledge, never existed anywhere outside the Delta (towns of Yazoo City, Indianola, Greenwood, et. al.)
There was a second 49 E/W split between Brooklyn and Hattiesburg that lasted until about 1936.
Google Maps actually delineates between the two south of Camp Shelby for a stretch. US 49W also used JB Horne Rd and "Old Hwy 19" (Elks Lake Rd).
Quote from: cjk374 on January 24, 2011, 08:43:55 PM
I'm not sure you'll be able to stop at the Welcome Center. It was closed due for a major rebuilding when I was there in October. I heard a rumor (ONLY a rumor...nothing substantiated) that the Fairgrounds Bridge (I believe you're talking about the truss bridge over the rail yard) was slated for removal.
I drove past about a week ago and it looked like the grounds were open. The welcome center sits adjacent to a small, detached parcel of the national park. I don't know why they'd close the entire site just to work on that building.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2011, 09:46:34 PM
QuoteAre you sure? I'm thinking it must be plain ol' 49. Those E and W divided alignments, to my knowledge, never existed anywhere outside the Delta (towns of Yazoo City, Indianola, Greenwood, et. al.)
There was a second 49 E/W split between Brooklyn and Hattiesburg that lasted until about 1936.
Wow, I had no idea! Certainly learned something new today.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2011, 09:46:34 PM
There was a second 49 E/W split between Brooklyn and Hattiesburg that lasted until about 1936.
I never knew that. Were there any other split routes in Miss apart from the two 49 E/W splits?
Quote from: cjk374 on January 24, 2011, 08:43:55 PM
I heard a rumor (ONLY a rumor...nothing substantiated) that the Fairgrounds Bridge (I believe you're talking about the truss bridge over the rail yard) was slated for removal.
It's true. That bridge has been found to be structurally unsound. It's been closed for at least a couple years now, creating a lot of inconvenience (Washington St is a major north-south route through this town).
As I understand, a new tunnel is being built for the railroad, and the bridge is to be completely rebuilt.
Quote from: US71 on January 24, 2011, 09:04:23 PM
BTW: it's the old ICG line ;)
It's the Alabama and Vicksburg; the IC/ICG didn't acquire it until 1926 :) http://www.archive.org/stream/poorsmanualofrai24newyuoft#page/2/mode/2up http://www.archive.org/stream/poorsmanualofrai24newyuoft#page/148/mode/2up
[Let's keep the disparaging remarks to a minimum... -S.]
QuoteI never knew that. Were there any other split routes in Miss apart from the two 49 E/W splits?
Not for US routes. There were some state split routes early on...of which MS 9W remains to this day. The most prominent was MS 45W, which became ALT US 45.
Quote from: NE2 on January 25, 2011, 01:28:00 AM
Quote from: US71 on January 24, 2011, 09:04:23 PM
BTW: it's the old ICG line ;)
Newb. It's the Alabama and Vicksburg; the IC/ICG didn't acquire it until 1926 :) http://www.archive.org/stream/poorsmanualofrai24newyuoft#page/2/mode/2up http://www.archive.org/stream/poorsmanualofrai24newyuoft#page/148/mode/2up
It's comforting to know I'm not the only
railroad geek here! :) :-D
The southern U.S. 49E/49W split was fairly short. MDOT provides scans of their official highway map going back to 1928 on their web site (http://www.gomdot.com/Divisions/IntermodalPlanning/Resources/Maps/StateHighwayMapsArchive.aspx). U.S. 49E/W to the south are displayed in the 1936 version (http://www.gomdot.com/Divisions/IntermodalPlanning/Resources/Maps/pdf/StateHighwayMapsArchive/HWY%20Map%201936%20Road%20Map%20of%20MS.pdf) for instance.
Quote from: NE2 on January 24, 2011, 11:28:09 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on January 23, 2011, 11:34:19 PM
I know the bridges you seek on old 80--over the Big Black River east of Bovina--a DEFINITE MUST SEE!! Also, if u want to see another big bridge over the same river, turn right on Warriors Trail (just before you get to the Big Black River). There is a HUGE concrete arch bridge that carries the Kansas City Southern mainline over it. Watching a train go overhead on this structure is really awesome (to me anyway).
Slight correction: this is the "Meridian Speedway" from Meridian to Shreveport. KCS's main line goes south from Kansas City through Shreveport to Port Arthur.
Slightly off-topic, but a few questions about the Meridian Speedway:
Why is it called the Meridian Speedway? I find it odd that Norfolk Southern doesn't maintain this line since they send a lot of intermodal freight over that line to Dallas. (Same with BNSF).
Does UP take over from Shreveport west to Dallas, or does KCS maintain that line to Dallas?
The NS paid $350 million CASH for their 38% share of the Meridian Speedway, LLC. :wow: This money was used for CTC installation, siding extensions, and other capacity improvements. As of now, the NS (somehow) has control over the use of all sidings on the Speedway. In the contract, if KCS doesn't get the hot pig trains to Meridian and Dallas on time at least 80-85% of the time, the NS will assume control of the Speedway. :paranoid:
Quote from: froggie on January 25, 2011, 07:41:46 AM
Not for US routes. There were some state split routes early on...of which MS 9W remains to this day. The most prominent was MS 45W, which became ALT US 45.
I think I also remember there being a 9Y. What is the story behind that?
Quote from: AARoads on January 25, 2011, 08:05:53 AM
The southern U.S. 49E/49W split was fairly short. MDOT provides scans of their official highway map going back to 1928 on their web site (http://www.gomdot.com/Divisions/IntermodalPlanning/Resources/Maps/StateHighwayMapsArchive.aspx). U.S. 49E/W to the south are displayed in the 1936 version (http://www.gomdot.com/Divisions/IntermodalPlanning/Resources/Maps/pdf/StateHighwayMapsArchive/HWY%20Map%201936%20Road%20Map%20of%20MS.pdf) for instance.
Comparing that to a modern map, looks like the old routes are chopped up a bit.
Quote from: US71 on January 25, 2011, 10:20:11 AM
Comparing that to a modern map, looks like the old routes are chopped up a bit.
The graphics capabilities of even the best equipment at that time were very limited. It's interesting to follow the progression of cartographic and printing technology used to produce those maps, from year to year, which you can do by reading "between the lines", as it were, of the maps at the website AA linked.
Quote from: berberry on January 25, 2011, 11:12:56 AM
Quote from: US71 on January 25, 2011, 10:20:11 AM
Comparing that to a modern map, looks like the old routes are chopped up a bit.
The graphics capabilities of even the best equipment at that time were very limited. It's interesting to follow the progression of cartographic and printing technology used to produce those maps, from year to year, which you can do by reading "between the lines", as it were, of the maps at the website AA linked.
I'm just saying (based on what I saw) that the old alignments don't appear to be thru roads anymore. I could be wrong. Hopefully, I'll have time to investigate.
Quote from: US71 on January 25, 2011, 11:46:34 AM
I'm just saying (based on what I saw) that the old alignments don't appear to be thru roads anymore. I could be wrong. Hopefully, I'll have time to investigate.
Okay, I think I see what you mean. I've also noticed on those old maps that sometimes a road looks disjointed when I don't think it was. Hard to be sure, though, because breaks in the line of a route were common in those days. Btw, I'm not an expert, so I might be using the wrong word here, in which case I'm completely off: by "break" or "disjoint", I mean a place where a turn at an intersection is required to continue along a given route.
The only bridge of note along (old) US 90 between New Orleans and Lafayette would be the old crossing of the Atchafayala between Baldwin and Morgan City
If you ever make it to north Mississippi, there are some interesting roads there as well. If you're a blues music fan, you'll know why the original intersection of US 61 and US 49 in Clarksdale is one of the more photographed pieces of roadway around: it's the place where legend says Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil. Greenwood has probably the most pointless cloverleaf interchange I've ever seen, where 49E and 82 meet. On 49, the road is two-lane, divides to four at the interchange, and immediately draws back to two. Why wouldn't a diamond work just as well?
Washington county, south of Greenville, has some of the only stretches of extant, paved one-lane highways anywhere in the state (at least I assume they're still there, I haven't seen them myself since the 80s).
Oxford has a road that, except for one feature, could be called a freeway. The feature? A RR crossing!
And finally, Tupelo has what I believe is probably Mississippi's oldest extant expressway, although I don't know that to be a fact. It's the section of old 78 on the east end of town. From looking at it, I think it was probably built about the same time as the Hwy 80 expressway bypass of Vicksburg, which later required considerable upgrading to become I-20.
Quote from: US71I'm just saying (based on what I saw) that the old alignments don't appear to be thru roads anymore. I could be wrong. Hopefully, I'll have time to investigate.
Except where it was realigned with the US 49 4-laning, the old US 49W alignment is more or less a thru road. Follow the roads I mentioned in my previous post.
Not so sure about old US 49E. I believe some of it is within Camp Shelby now.
Quote from: berberryAnd finally, Tupelo has what I believe is probably Mississippi's oldest extant expressway, although I don't know that to be a fact. It's the section of old 78 on the east end of town. From looking at it, I think it was probably built about the same time as the Hwy 80 expressway bypass of Vicksburg, which later required considerable upgrading to become I-20.
There are at least two older sections. What is now I-20/59 through Meridian was built as the US 11/80 "Tom Bailey Drive" and opened in 1950, part of which remains as the US 11/80 connection to MS 39 on the east side of town.
And US 49 through Hattiesburg, including the ancient cloverleaf at US 11, predates that...having been completed no later than 1948.
Quote from: froggie on January 26, 2011, 07:21:11 AM
What is now I-20/59 through Meridian was built as the US 11/80 "Tom Bailey Drive" and opened in 1950, part of which remains as the US 11/80 connection to MS 39 on the east side of town.
Yeah, when I wrote that post I specifically thought of you once saying something about a long-ago-removed cloverleaf in Meridian that matched the 49/11 leaf in Hattiesburg. I think you said that in the '50s, Hwy 80 was upgraded into an expressway, then later to I-20. That means the old expressway doesn't exist in its original form but has been significantly modified, and I guess in my mind I'd disqualified it for that reason.
I disqualified 49 through Hattiesburg simply because it's not what I would call an expressway. I've always thought of an expressway as having very few traffic lights or none at all. Probably you're technically correct, though, because I think MS officially calls it an expressway.
Using
my rules, the only rules that count after all :), I think the east end of Tupelo's McCullough Blvd is still the oldest extant expressway in Mississippi.
You still might be thwarted. :biggrin: Though maps are not very useful in picking out the year the 4-lane part of McCullough Blvd was built, NBI data suggests that it was no earlier than 1962. By that point, 3 segments of I-55 (near McComb, south of Jackson, and north of Batesville), 2 sections of 4-lane US 49 (south of Camp Shelby and near Wiggins), and 1 section of I-59 (Hattiesburg to Laurel) were already built.
Quote from: froggie on January 26, 2011, 07:21:11 AM
And US 49 through Hattiesburg, including the ancient cloverleaf at US 11, predates that...having been completed no later than 1948.
NBI data on Bridgehunter says 1946 ;)
There's a smaller version at 7th Street & 49, but not as a cloverleaf.
Quote from: berberry on January 25, 2011, 10:54:04 PM
Oxford has a road that, except for one feature, could be called a freeway. The feature? A RR crossing!
I was in Oxford 5 years ago and I believe the at grade RR crossing on MS 6 had already been removed.
Quote from: jdb1234 on January 28, 2011, 03:31:17 AM
Quote from: berberry on January 25, 2011, 10:54:04 PM
Oxford has a road that, except for one feature, could be called a freeway. The feature? A RR crossing!
I was in Oxford 5 years ago and I believe the at grade RR crossing on MS 6 had already been removed.
Missouri has (or had) a few of those
Quote from: US71 on January 28, 2011, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: jdb1234 on January 28, 2011, 03:31:17 AM
Quote from: berberry on January 25, 2011, 10:54:04 PM
Oxford has a road that, except for one feature, could be called a freeway. The feature? A RR crossing!
I was in Oxford 5 years ago and I believe the at grade RR crossing on MS 6 had already been removed.
Missouri has (or had) a few of those
I seem to remember one of those crossings in MO...I think it is RTE BB on the northside of Columbia headed toward Hallsville. I believe it is the Columbia Terminal RR (COLT). I think a Quaker Oats plant is alongside the tracks and highway...interstate-grade road with a very long crossing across the road (45-degree-or-less crossing IIRC). :wow: