(https://live.staticflickr.com/3137/5749218561_044fa660ed_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/9L3fnX)
I found this oddity at the southwest corner of Hendry County Roads 833 and 832, shrouded by some dead/dormant vines. I've passed this region of "Devil's Garden" at least a dozen times in the past 15+ years, first time I have noticed it.
I have no idea what "F.A.P." and the the "S - 525 (1)" mean. Does anyone have any idea?
Niiiiice. That's the end of federal aid primary contract S-525 (1). Perhaps the S means it was actually federal aid secondary, since that's the system a 1969 Hendry County map puts 832 and 833 in.
The federal aid interstate/primary/secondary/urban system was replaced by the current functional classification in accordance with ISTEA (1991).
I've seen something similar with the numbers carved into a concrete post in Kentucky.
Did that predate the Florida State Road system, or perhaps was established before SR 832 (later CR 832) was created?
[Er...tree'd, I think]
FAP/FAS routes are just federal aid designations for funding. They're entirely unrelated to the roads they follow.
Some states (such as Nevada) did align their federal aid and state route numbers, but Florida did not.
Thanks for the information, gentlemen!
At the risk of sounding dumb, I am curious to know a little more. Searching for a few days has really turned up little information; this road is definitely a rural route. I am really curious to know more (like the age of the sign or how old this original route was). I didn't get a shot of the reverse of the sign.
Does anyone have a map or layout of these routes, and were things like "S - 525 (1)" just referring to a line item in a federal bill? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I can't really find any exact information (is the exact term Federal-aid Highway? Primary or Secondary?
Here's another shot; I took another one with a flash to illuminate this otherwise very dark sign...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.formulanone.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F03%2FFAP-S525-1b.jpg&hash=bb800fc59630acf7a73388a4c4eec5b1d0b3c001)
that's a neat find and a great photo! I know of a similar one in Washington County - cast iron and all. Will have to dig up the picture to find the reference number.
I alas cannot provide any more information regarding the reference numbers. I just know that the signs are everywhere; I enjoy spotting them in California, as many survive.
The reference numbers were more than just a line number in a bill; they were part of a system assigned by the state. They would have appeared in project listings (such as this one for Alabama (http://books.google.com/books?id=kVgPAAAAIAAJ&q=%22S-525%22)); most likely S-525 (1) was the first project on FAS 525. They don't appear on FDOT county maps (only a numberless FAP/FAS does), though some other states' county maps did show the numbers (at least the primary ones). Tennessee still uses a different shield for old FA primary and secondary routes.
Quote from: NE2 on March 13, 2011, 01:00:10 AMNiiiiice. That's the end of federal aid primary contract S-525 (1). Perhaps the S means it was actually federal aid secondary, since that's the system a 1969 Hendry County map puts 832 and 833 in.
"FAP" in this context probably means federal-aid project. "(1)" is probably an agreement designator and can refer not just to construction, but also to right-of-way acquisition. In the absence of other evidence, I wouldn't argue that "S" necessarily means secondary--it could easily mean segment (so that the sign refers to agreement 1 on road section 525 under the Florida federal-aid highway program), "S" region in the state, etc. FAP nomenclature actually varies considerably from state to state--it is only with the advent of the Interstates that the nomenclature becomes rigid, and in many states Interstate-style project numbering applies just to Interstates (though some states, like Utah DOT, try to extend it to state routes in general).
The FAP designations don't just appear on these little markers (whose installation I suspect had to do with establishing zero points for the crude stationing systems used before mileposting); they also appear on right-of-way plans (if the agreement covered right-of-way acquisition), construction plans (if the agreement covered construction), the vouchers the state highway commission or department filed with the BPR for reimbursement (many of which can now be found in NARA satellite facilities), and--as NE2's link shows--often the periodic report of the state highway agency.
My theory about the inflexible numbering system for the Interstates is that central BPR felt the Interstate program was important and high-profile, with much potential to cause embarrassment, and wanted a system which would allow information about specific projects to be pinned down ASAP in case a Congressman asked difficult questions about bitumen instead of limestone being used for shoulders, a TV network ran a documentary about an "exit to nowhere," etc., without having to negotiate the vagaries of whatever numbering system might have been agreed between a state highway department and the BPR field or regional office. Inclusion of the Interstate number in the project number (something which rarely happened with state and US routes in the old FAP nomenclatures) also allowed all of the documentation associated with a given Interstate to be filed together, not just by the federal government but also by state DOTs, which have plans retention responsibilities.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2011, 01:03:07 AM
In the absence of other evidence, I wouldn't argue that "S" necessarily means secondary
I think the 1969 Hendry County map labeling it FAS constitutes other evidence.
I just tried searching the Hendry County official records but couldn't find anything.
Quote from: NE2 on March 16, 2011, 12:12:57 AM
Tennessee still uses a different shield for old FA primary and secondary routes.
???
Are you talking about the primary/secondary state highway shields on roads that happen to follow a federal aid route or something else?
Quote from: NE2 on March 16, 2011, 02:07:09 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2011, 01:03:07 AMIn the absence of other evidence, I wouldn't argue that "S" necessarily means secondary
I think the 1969 Hendry County map labeling it FAS constitutes other evidence.
But how do you exclude the possibility that the road was originally built as federal-aid primary and later downgraded?
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2011, 01:03:07 AM
"FAP" in this context probably means federal-aid project.
in California, FAP is Federal Aid Primary, and FAS is Federal Aid Secondary. There also exists FAU - Federal Aid Urban - but I have never seen an example of that.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2011, 10:35:16 AM
Quote from: NE2 on March 16, 2011, 02:07:09 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2011, 01:03:07 AMIn the absence of other evidence, I wouldn't argue that "S" necessarily means secondary
I think the 1969 Hendry County map labeling it FAS constitutes other evidence.
But how do you exclude the possibility that the road was originally built as federal-aid primary and later downgraded?
It's possible but extremely unlikely given the specific road (minor rural two-lane road).
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 16, 2011, 12:20:40 PMin California, FAP is Federal Aid Primary, and FAS is Federal Aid Secondary. There also exists FAU - Federal Aid Urban - but I have never seen an example of that.
In contexts where it is obvious a route designation is being talked about (such as statements like "this project is being performed on FAP 51" or highway maps showing "FAS 2325" and the like), those meanings are more or less universal among states. But "FAP" on the title sheet of a set of plans more often than not means "federal-aid project." I think that is what is meant here since the legend immediately below "F.A.P." is a pretty typical FAP project number. It would also be a bit strange to have "F.A.P." mean "federal-aid primary" on a FAS route, wouldn't it?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 16, 2011, 12:20:40 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2011, 01:03:07 AM
"FAP" in this context probably means federal-aid project.
in California, FAP is Federal Aid Primary, and FAS is Federal Aid Secondary. There also exists FAU - Federal Aid Urban - but I have never seen an example of that.
There are county maps of Florida which have FAU and ISU listed along some roads...mainly in the six or seven urban counties down here.
Found another one at the intersection of CR 731 and Old State Road 8 in Venus, Florida: Location, no Street View (http://goo.gl/maps/pYq3)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/2609/5749217651_00d9c53236_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/9L3f7g)
Quote from: formulanone on May 21, 2011, 02:55:32 PM
Found another one at the intersection of CR 731 and Old State Road 8 in Venus, Florida:
the cast iron looks very much like an FAS gantry which I found in Washington County, Florida in Jan 2010.
FAP: Federal Aid Primary
Quote from: US71 on May 21, 2011, 07:01:20 PM
FAP: Federal Aid Primary
and FAS is Federal Aid Secondary. I have heard of a third classification - FAU, Federal Aid Urban - but have never seen a marker to denote that.
And FAI: Federal Aid Interstate.
Quote from: NE2 on May 21, 2011, 07:10:17 PM
And FAI: Federal Aid Interstate.
I've never seen that one!
I have this idea (justified or not) that the Federal Aid markers which survive are from about 1927-1945 ... and in rural jurisdictions which tend to keep them around; so no FAU (too urban, and therefore likely to be replaced) and no FAI (too new).
I've seen FAI on maps, but not in the field.
Quote from: NE2 on May 21, 2011, 07:26:28 PM
I've seen FAI on maps, but not in the field.
Ditto.
Also AFP
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4035%2F4529550872_a668b3ea3b_z_d.jpg&hash=2878c25632a39e3acc9588a93e816e53b2106d1e)