Driving back from some vineyards this past weekend, I noticed that OR highway 18, while bypassing McMinnville, is duplexed with OR-233 for a couple of miles until its eventual end at OR-99W. Going westbound, there is no mention of 233, and there aren't any signes for 233 on westbound 18, but that's a different story tied to Oregon's poor signage.
This got me thinking, why run 233 along with 18 for the last few miles? Why not just "kill" 233 when it meets OR-18?
What are some other pointless termini that you can think of? I thought of years ago how US 26 ran with 101 to meet US 30 in Astoria (this is since changed) but I'm sure there are more.
US 14/US 16 both start at US 89 in Yellowstone NP, but are immediatly duplexed with eachother + US 20. I would shorten both of them until the point where they meet US 20.
Well I can answer the "Why not kill them before the multiplex?" question...
It is to allow people to stay on their original route as long as possible. They're trying to prevent confusion that would be caused by having you switch to a different route for just a moderate distance (like a few miles). It's easier for drivers if they can just stay on the same route the whole way...
U.S. 301 terminates at U.S. 41 in Sarasota. The two exist separately for 13 miles before multiplexing in Bradenton and after crossing the Manatee River into Palmetto, U.S. 301 departs U.S. 41 for points further north. It does seem pointless to have U.S. 301 multiplex with U.S. 41 south of Palmetto just to end 16 miles south in downtown Sarasota. Perhaps the southern portion of U.S. 301 between Bradenton and Sarasota would make a viable Alternate U.S. 41 instead...
Delaware 34 continues a short distance west of Delaware 41 (Newport Gap Pike) to Duncan Road, ending arbitrarily there.
The Delaware 62 end shield was posted at Old Capital Trail, almost within sight distance of Delaware 2/41's intersection nearby. Delaware 62 has a shield directing motorists onto Newport Gap Pike south at Delaware 2/41, but officially there is a useless gap between Delaware 2 (Kirkwood Highway) and Old Capital Trail.
About US 301 it multiplexes with VA 2 for 20-35 miles form US 1 in Richmond to VA 207 and US 17 Business multiplexes with VA 2 up to Fredericksburg pointlessly as both ends of VA 2 are on multiplexes. Theoretically VA 2 should only exist between US 301 Business in Bowling Green and US 17 and US 17 Business south of Fredericksburg.
Interstate 26's "west" end is pointless! :banghead:
CT 137. It's south end is at US 1 (Tresser Blvd). I-95 is just a few blocks beyond there, and here's the thing... the third of a mile or so between US 1 and I-95 is a state highway.. but it's unsigned service route 493 (for some reason). Convoluted things further, signs on I-95 say "CT 137 North", despite the fact that the two routes technically do not meet. Why can't that stretch of road just be officially part of route 137? :pan:
Very pointless, indeed...considering that one is heading "north" and not "west". And two, that it abruptly ends at an interchange with U.S. 11W. Some may argue that Interstate 27 does the same thing but at least its intentions were to only go as far as Lubbock, with only an idea to extend it in the 1970's that was never passed. I see no purpose for Interstate 26 to end where it does in Tennessee.
OK 3 is nothing but concurrencies from Colorado to Okarche, which is about 315 miles of concurrencies for no real reason. 315 miles–that's the same distance from my house to Springfield, Missouri.
I think Route 108 in Modesto has a terminus at Route 99, while co-signed with Route 140 (which continues on at both ends). (108 is supposed to continue south someday to I-5 from there but that has never been built.)
Business 80 and US 50 have concurrent termini in West Sacramento, but it isn't pointless as the business route is designed to be a downtown route along former I-80. (A similar situation exists in Bakersfield, where Route 204 runs entirely along the northern, partially-freeway segment of Business 99.)
Had it been completed, I-480 in San Francisco would have ended at current Route 1/once-planned I-280 in the Presidio while concurrent with US 101 - this would have made the 480 numbering logical (as it would have connected the I-280 terminus with I-80 in South of Market).
Until the late 1980s, Route 99 ended at I-5 concurrent with Route 36 in Red Bluff - this was former US 99E.
Historic examples in California:
Route 21 (mostly supplanted by I-680 - except at this segment) used to end at Route 17, while co-routed with Route 9 on what is now Route 262 in Fremont.
US 40 and 50 used to end at US 101 with I-80 in San Francisco, at the Central Freeway junction.
US 60 and 70 once began at US 101 at the San Bernardino Split in downtown Los Angeles (with 70's entire run in California a co-routing with either US 60, or US 99).
Both US 6 and US 91 ended in Long Beach at the junction of Route 19 and then-US 101A (now Route 1), both co-routed with 101A.
US 80 and 395 once ran together along Market Street in San Diego to US 101 (at Harbor).
US 466 east of Barstow ran entirely along other routes - US 91 (current I-15) up to Vegas (including portions of the Las Vegas Strip) and US 93 through Hoover dam to Kingman.
In PA, when PA 309 was still US 309, it went from its current terminus in Tunkhannock, PA to the Sayre, PA - Waverly NY area. It was duplexed with US 6 from Tunkhannock to just past Towanda and with US 220 from Towanda north.
When 309 was downgraded to a state route, 309 was truncated to Tunkhannock ending the multiplexing.
Quote from: froggie on February 18, 2009, 05:07:12 PM
QuoteAbout US 301 it multiplexes with VA 2 for 20-35 miles form US 1 in Richmond to VA 207 and US 17 Business multiplexes with VA 2 up to Fredericksburg pointlessly as both ends of VA 2 are on multiplexes. Theoretically VA 2 should only exist between US 301 Business in Bowling Green and US 17 and US 17 Business south of Fredericksburg.
Deathtopumpkins suggested this one already, but this is a case of having a single route number between the two termini. The same argument has been used by Arkansas and Louisiana regarding U.S. route changes and additions in the two states over the past 10-12 years.
Yeah but the VA 2 multiplexes have been around for many years from what I know.
Interstate 70 in Baltimore...
Many Louisiana state highways have rather pointless, arbitrary termini. See LA 47 north (west?) end; LA 1080 both ends; LA 611-1 west end; most (if not all) of the state highways in Assumption Parish not numbered 1, 70, 70 Spur, 308, or 398.
Then again, these are mostly the ends of routes or parts of routes which are pointless in themselves....
The one that the AASHTO did recently that seemed kind of pointless was with US-197 in Washington. It was originally multiplex with WA-14 for a few miles so that it met up with US-97 again. Now, it just ends at WA-14 shortly after crossing the border out of Oregon. It made more sense previously connecting up with US-97 at both ends. Of course, if the AASHTO hadn't nixed the old US-830 designation (which used to cover all of WA-14 and WA-4), it would have made sense to terminate it there.
I somehow just don't like seeing US Highways terminated at State Routes when they're right in the vicinity of other state routes.
One they did get rid of that I was happy about, though, was the multiplex of US-101 and US-26 through Seaside, Oregon, which made no sense, as there was no other section of 26 west of that 101 interchange.
-Alex (Tarkus)
Wyoming is a giant useless concurrency-
All business loops off of interstates with concurrent US routes are marked as Interstate Business and US Business (so I-80 Business/US-30 Business serves Green River, etc)
WYO 789 is almost entirely concurrent with other routes except its southernmost segment
US-189 runs uselessly concurrent with US-191 between their meeting point and Jackson
US 14, 16, and 18 all run uselessly concurrent either to Yellowstone or to I-25 along US-20
Interstate 180 is useless as well
As far as Washington-
SR 260 and 261 both run from their southward junction to SR 26 where SR 260 ends
Idaho doesn't have any I can think of off the top of my head (huzzah)
Quote from: flaroadgeek on February 18, 2009, 03:38:05 PM
U.S. 301 terminates at U.S. 41 in Sarasota. The two exist separately for 13 miles before multiplexing in Bradenton and after crossing the Manatee River into Palmetto, U.S. 301 departs U.S. 41 for points further north. It does seem pointless to have U.S. 301 multiplex with U.S. 41 south of Palmetto just to end 16 miles south in downtown Sarasota. Perhaps the southern portion of U.S. 301 between Bradenton and Sarasota would make a viable Alternate U.S. 41 instead...
The other end of U.S. 301 is a similar circumstance. The last number of miles is multiplexed with DE 896. Truncate it southward to the intersection where 896 turns east.
Quote from: akotchi on February 18, 2009, 10:21:53 PM
Quote from: flaroadgeek on February 18, 2009, 03:38:05 PM
U.S. 301 terminates at U.S. 41 in Sarasota. The two exist separately for 13 miles before multiplexing in Bradenton and after crossing the Manatee River into Palmetto, U.S. 301 departs U.S. 41 for points further north. It does seem pointless to have U.S. 301 multiplex with U.S. 41 south of Palmetto just to end 16 miles south in downtown Sarasota. Perhaps the southern portion of U.S. 301 between Bradenton and Sarasota would make a viable Alternate U.S. 41 instead...
The other end of U.S. 301 is a similar circumstance. The last number of miles is multiplexed with DE 896. Truncate it southward to the intersection where 896 turns east.
Or an even better idea would be to truncate it when it reaches U.S. 50 and renumber the remaining portion up to DE 896 to a state route. I was up in Delaware in December and seen first hand how poorly signed U.S. 301 is in the vicinity of its northern terminus.
OK, I'll buy that.
Or have 301 turn east and end at 13, and truncate 896 back to that intersection. I think that is the way it was at one time, iirc.
Quote from: akotchi on February 19, 2009, 01:00:34 PM
OK, I'll buy that.
Or have 301 turn east and end at 13, and truncate 896 back to that intersection. I think that is the way it was at one time, iirc.
The thought process, is that if U.S. 301 is moved onto the planned toll road around Middletown as planned, that it will end at the SR 1 Turnpike north of Odessa. I say if, because is it legal to move a U.S. highway onto a toll facility?
Quote from: aaroads on February 19, 2009, 01:33:58 PM
The thought process, is that if U.S. 301 is moved onto the planned toll road around Middletown as planned, that it will end at the SR 1 Turnpike north of Odessa. I say if, because is it legal to move a U.S. highway onto a toll facility?
IIRC From reading Rand McNally, the Cimarron Turnpike in OK was originally unsigned and US 412 was added later.
Quote from: aaroads on February 19, 2009, 01:33:58 PM
Quote from: akotchi on February 19, 2009, 01:00:34 PM
OK, I'll buy that.
Or have 301 turn east and end at 13, and truncate 896 back to that intersection. I think that is the way it was at one time, iirc.
The thought process, is that if U.S. 301 is moved onto the planned toll road around Middletown as planned, that it will end at the SR 1 Turnpike north of Odessa. I say if, because is it legal to move a U.S. highway onto a toll facility?
My understanding of it is that it's generally discouraged, but there are exceptions, such as U.S. 412, which follows the Cimarron Turnpike in Oklahoma, and mightyace apparently types faster than I do.
VA 356 should be extended to either I-64 or VA 6 rather than ending at US 33, since the route remains a major thoroughfare beyond that point.
US 33 needs to end at US 250 at the Richmond city limits, which would eliminate a confusing and rather useless multiplex.
VA 150 could easily be extended up Parham Road to either VA 6 or US 250 (or heck, get rid of VA 73 and bring it all the way up to US 301). Henrico County would never go along with it, though, since Parham is considered by the county's public works department to be its crowning achievement.
I always thought that the northern terminus of US-101 in Olympia was pointless. It doesn't even end inside of the city.
VA-32 crosses the James River Bridge multiplexed with US-258/17 according to some sources, only to terminate on the peninsula side, and be multiplexed for a long portion on the Isle of Wight side.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 21, 2009, 12:21:06 PM
VA-32 crosses the James River Bridge multiplexed with US-258/17 according to some sources, only to terminate on the peninsula side, and be multiplexed for a long portion on the Isle of Wight side.
VA 10 multiplexes with US 258 and VA 32 into Downtown Suffolk from Smithfield only to end in Downtown Suffolk
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 21, 2009, 12:29:27 PM
VA 10 multiplexes with US 258 and VA 32 into Downtown Suffolk from Smithfield only to end in Downtown Suffolk
Yeah, that's another pointless one.
Quote from: SyntheticDreamer on February 19, 2009, 04:22:13 PM
US 33 needs to end at US 250 at the Richmond city limits, which would eliminate a confusing and rather useless multiplex.
I'd want to reverse that, given that US 33 is the two-digit U.S. Route
IIRC, US 319's southern terminus alongside US 98 in Apalachicola, FL, would qualify. From what I remember seeing, the two are multiplexed towards US 319's end.
Quote from: njroadhorse on February 21, 2009, 03:22:02 PM
Quote from: SyntheticDreamer on February 19, 2009, 04:22:13 PM
US 33 needs to end at US 250 at the Richmond city limits, which would eliminate a confusing and rather useless multiplex.
I'd want to reverse that, given that US 33 is the two-digit U.S. Route
In that case, they both ought to end at US 1/301. Having both VA 33 and US 33 within a block of one another is pretty confusing as it is.
Quote from: SyntheticDreamer on February 21, 2009, 07:07:12 PM
Quote from: njroadhorse on February 21, 2009, 03:22:02 PM
Quote from: SyntheticDreamer on February 19, 2009, 04:22:13 PM
US 33 needs to end at US 250 at the Richmond city limits, which would eliminate a confusing and rather useless multiplex.
I'd want to reverse that, given that US 33 is the two-digit U.S. Route
In that case, they both ought to end at US 1/301. Having both VA 33 and US 33 within a block of one another is pretty confusing as it is.
Seriously US 250 should be left alone and US 33 should follow US 1/US 301 North at Belvidere to end at VA 33/Leigh St(it might still be pointless but it makes sense)
I think US routes can be put on toll roads only if there is a U.S. highway facility that you can parallel the turnpike with if you're not in the mood to pay. US-412 Scenic bypasses the Cherokee for this reason. And US-64 bypasses the Cimarron.
I-74/I-77 at the NC/VA border. For starters, there's no need for this duplex to exist yet. Throw in the fact that the only reassurance shield for I-74 during the duplex is on the northbound side and you have the definition of a Useless Duplex.
As for non-multiplexed routes, I'd have to say... well, I-74's western terminus.
OH 65 at I-280. There used to be an exit there, but the Skyway project removed that. It would be better if the Craig Bridge wasn't turned to local control and have OH 65 routed on it so it can connect to I-280.
Quote from: MDOTFanFB on March 12, 2011, 08:04:29 PM
OH 65 at I-280. There used to be an exit there, but the Skyway project removed that. It would be better if the Craig Bridge wasn't turned to local control and have OH 65 routed on it so it can connect to I-280.
Add I-76 to the list, TWICE. First off is the famous US 30 expressway off of I-71. This makes I-76's current western terminus pointless. The problem? Duplexing I-76 with I-71 would be just as pointless until US 30 is upgraded all the way to I-75 since US 23 (I-73) isn't going to be worked on for a LONG time.
A few here in my area:
MD 85's northern terminus. Instead of ending at I-70, it continues an additional several hundred feet to end at an intersection with an unnumbered route. Either truncate it to I-70 or extend it north to MD 144.
MD 107/109. These routes share a terminus in Poolesville, where there are no other numbered routes. I think this is because MD 107 used to continue west from here, but since it doesn't anymore, there's no need to have the route appear to arbitrarily change numbers.
MD 112/190. Same situation as MD 107/109.
MD 119's northern terminus. Currently ends at unnumbered Middlebrook Road. Either extend it west on Middlebrook to end at MD 118 or east to end at I-270 or (preferably) MD 355.
MD 189's northern terminus. Similar situation to MD 85 above; ends at a nondescript intersection just past I-270. Either truncate it to I-270 or extend it into Rockville to end at MD 28.
Honorable mentions:
MD 27's southern terminus. This one might not really fit the description; there's not really anything wrong with it ending at MD 355. However, since the BGSes on I-270 sign the Father Hurley Blvd exit as MD 27 (without a "to"), wouldn't it make more sense to actually have MD 27 continue the 3/4 of a mile or so to I-270 to actually make it accurate?
US 340's northern (eastern) terminus. Final five miles are concurrent with US 15 and thus not strictly necessary. However, it could be argued that this is necessary in order for it to connect to its parent, US 40, which it meets at the terminus.
EDIT: Just thought of another:
MD 28's eastern terminus or MD 198's western terminus (take your pick). There's no reason for the section of Norbeck Road between MD 650 and MD 182 not to have a number, so extend either 28 or 198 over it. In an ideal world, they'd also be unified under the same number, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.
Quote from: kaothinterceptor on March 12, 2011, 07:54:04 PM
I-74/I-77 at the NC/VA border. For starters, there's no need for this duplex to exist yet. Throw in the fact that the only reassurance shield for I-74 during the duplex is on the northbound side and you have the definition of a Useless Duplex.
That's a change, then. There used to be an I-74 sign posted with the first I-77 sign going south as you enter NC from VA.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2009, 12:09:48 AM
I think US routes can be put on toll roads only if there is a U.S. highway facility that you can parallel the turnpike with if you're not in the mood to pay. US-412 Scenic bypasses the Cherokee for this reason. And US-64 bypasses the Cimarron.
Someone better tell Illinois with US-51 on the tollway (with I-90 and I-39) and only IL-251 paralleling it.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 12, 2011, 10:21:35 PM
Quote from: kaothinterceptor on March 12, 2011, 07:54:04 PM
I-74/I-77 at the NC/VA border. For starters, there's no need for this duplex to exist yet. Throw in the fact that the only reassurance shield for I-74 during the duplex is on the northbound side and you have the definition of a Useless Duplex.
That's a change, then. There used to be an I-74 sign posted with the first I-77 sign going south as you enter NC from VA.
It was still there the last time I was there in May '10. I'll be for sure back that way in May again and I'll double check on it.
How about the west end of US 264? It's last 17 miles are mulitplexed with US 64 to I-440. It should either end at Us 64 near Zebulon or exit to what is now 64 Business (old 64 before the Bypass opened) so they don't overlap. The east end of 264 used to also be overlapped with 64 to go over the Sound to Manteo where they both ended at US 158 (which also ended there). Now they cut the east end back to where they intersect west of the Virginia Dare Bridge.
Another pointless termini is US 401. It used to end at US 1 in Norlina. Recently it was extended north along US 1 to end at I-85 (NC Exit 233).
I've got one more, which is as much a mulitplex question as anything else. NC 24 and 27 are mulitplexed from Charlotte all the way to near Fayetteville, over 100 miles. Add to this, that at the east end, NC 27 ends in Benson, while NC 24 goes all the way to US 70 at Morehead City. On the west end, 24 used to end where 24 and 27 met US 74 (while 27 continued west), but a few years ago, 24 was extended along Harriis Blvd. to end at I-77. Could this long mulitplex be elimininated? Why not end 24 at 27 near Fayetteville (leving only the east section), or kill 27 and renumber the existing 27 west of Charlotte to be 24. Of course, this is now pointless since 24 was extended over Harris Blvd., but that could have been another number and still ended 24 near Fayetteville.
While we're at it, do Us 74 and 76 both have to mulitplex east into and thru Wilmington so they can terminate at opposite ends of Wrightsville Beach (74 on the north and 76 on the south). Seems like one US route would have been enough to go over the causeway. Oh wait, I forgot they take separate routes (74 on MLK and 76 via Oleander) through Wilmington before they meet up just before the drawbridge.
SK 55 at SK 9. AB/SK 55 are part of the Northern Woods and Water Route (along with BC/AB49 and AB 2), stretches the width of Saskatchewan... only for SK 55 to end at SK 9 (a north-south route), which go the final few klicks into Manitoba, switching to a Manitoba secondary highway (MB 283, I think). It should have been SK 55 going into Manitoba, to retain a primary highway number on the Maintoba side (MB 55) before the Northern Woods and Water Route switches to MB 10 to go south.
Quote from: MDOTFanFB on March 12, 2011, 08:04:29 PM
OH 65 at I-280. There used to be an exit there, but the Skyway project removed that. It would be better if the Craig Bridge wasn't turned to local control and have OH 65 routed on it so it can connect to I-280.
There is several state routes in Ohio that just "end" where they used to meet other state/US routes that are no more.
In Michigan, there are a few examples.
M-44 continues south of I-96 to M-11 in Grand Rapids, concurrent with M-37. At M-11, M-44 ends while M-37 continues south.
M-22 should end at M-72 north of downtown Traverse City, instead of at US-31. Between M-72 and US-31, M-22 and M-72 are concurrent.
I-275 has no reason to exist north of the I-96 interchange.
M-121's western end is less than 1/4 mile from BL I-196 in Zeeland. I can't see why it would simply be extended to BL I-196 instead of ending at a locally maintained road.
Quote from: kaothinterceptor on March 12, 2011, 08:38:40 PM
Add I-76 to the list, TWICE. First off is the famous US 30 expressway off of I-71. This makes I-76's current western terminus pointless. The problem? Duplexing I-76 with I-71 would be just as pointless until US 30 is upgraded all the way to I-75 since US 23 (I-73) isn't going to be worked on for a LONG time.
Huh?
I-76 ends near Lodi 30 miles from US 30. I can understand if you think that's a funny place to end an interstate, but what's US 30 got to do with it? I-76 has always ended at I-71 west of Akron ever since it replaced I-80S in the early '70s. And, AFAIK, I've never heard of any real plans to extend I-76 from there. Many of us here have suggested routing across US 30 in fictional highways but that is just whimsy.
Or, to summarize, since there are no real plans to extend I-76 beyond where it ends now, then the state of US 30 in Ohio is immaterial to whether I-76's terminus is pointless or not.
US 301 should continue across the Delaware Memorial Bridge and continue up US 130. It would then end at its parent.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 03, 2011, 04:18:24 PM
US 301 should continue across the Delaware Memorial Bridge and continue up US 130. It would then end at its parent.
I agree, but that's fictional highways. At least 301 ends at a US highway, whether 40 or 13, although it's never had an end that wasn't somewhat awkward and contrived. If DelDOT ever builds the DE 1 connector, it'll be a lot more intuitive.
Quote from: AlpsROADS on April 03, 2011, 06:14:50 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 03, 2011, 04:18:24 PM
US 301 should continue across the Delaware Memorial Bridge and continue up US 130. It would then end at its parent.
I agree, but that's fictional highways. At least 301 ends at a US highway, whether 40 or 13, although it's never had an end that wasn't somewhat awkward and contrived. If DelDOT ever builds the DE 1 connector, it'll be a lot more intuitive.
How about US 113 ending at DE 1 in Milford, DE? It once ended at its parent, but now is short some miles causing some in Dover to be an un-numbered street and orphaning its alternate route.
Its Alternate route no longer exists. It was dropped at the same time 113 was truncated to Milford.
Quote from: flaroads on February 19, 2009, 12:13:26 AM
Quote from: akotchi on February 18, 2009, 10:21:53 PM
Quote from: flaroadgeek on February 18, 2009, 03:38:05 PM
U.S. 301 terminates at U.S. 41 in Sarasota. The two exist separately for 13 miles before multiplexing in Bradenton and after crossing the Manatee River into Palmetto, U.S. 301 departs U.S. 41 for points further north. It does seem pointless to have U.S. 301 multiplex with U.S. 41 south of Palmetto just to end 16 miles south in downtown Sarasota. Perhaps the southern portion of U.S. 301 between Bradenton and Sarasota would make a viable Alternate U.S. 41 instead...
The other end of U.S. 301 is a similar circumstance. The last number of miles is multiplexed with DE 896. Truncate it southward to the intersection where 896 turns east.
Or an even better idea would be to truncate it when it reaches U.S. 50 and renumber the remaining portion up to DE 896 to a state route. I was up in Delaware in December and seen first hand how poorly signed U.S. 301 is in the vicinity of its northern terminus.
Nah, I'd rather have it terminate at US 1 in Pennsylvania.
But as for other pointless termini; New York State Routes 105 & 106 at each other in North Bellmore! NY 106 should end in Bellmore at either NY 27 or Merrick Road, and NY 105 should either end at NY 24 or NY 102 in Hempstead.
I-74 has many pointless termini. it should not show up as a route number east of Cincinnati.
A-10 abruptly ending in the middle of a multiplex with A-55 as the freeway continues as A-55 only. Why not end A-10 as it reaches A-55?
Many state highways have pointless termini. WIS 32 has lots of pointless multiplexes - even from Three Lakes to Michigan - along US 45 where it ends there, not in Three Lakes. WIS-101 follows WIS 70 to US 2 where both terminate, WIS 441 has US 10 on it (though this is legit cause it's a "phantom 3Di" to US 41)
WIS 241 and WIS 24 end at each other on their north ends - at no other route. WIS 24 ends at the Milwaukee county line but the road continues as CTH L in Waukesha county. WIS 107's north end is at a County highway (which used to be US 51)
Also in Wisconsin, WI-182 and WI-47 duplex with one another the last few miles before intersecting with US-51 just south of Manitowish.
Quote from: Master son on April 08, 2011, 01:22:21 PM
WIS 241 and WIS 24 end at each other on their north ends - at no other route.
Yeah, but you know the history behind that. It's not like one could logically displace the other.
Has CA-164 been mentioned yet? It's an unsigned route that is wholly within CA-19, which means both its north and south termini are part of a longer route that follows the exact same path. Never quite understood the point of the route. (CA-77, an unsigned Bay Area highway, is fairly similar in that it's part of a longer Route 61 definition.)
^^^
To me, an unsigned highway designation doesn't exist for all practical purposes.
I would agree. But I do believe that section of highway continues to receive funding as CA-164, similar to funding for the unsigned CA-51.
We have lots of occasions where a road will extend over another in order to end on a more major road (and in the UK, multiplexes only normally carry one number, normally with the other number being shown as "To", via the use of brackets) - my favourite is the A418 multiplexing with the A40, to end on the A40 (http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/index.php?view=51.74041,-1.08239&map=OSMap&zoom=7&layer=0), though that's far from pointless. The A290 and A257 extending over the A2050 (old A2) to meet the A28 count as pointless in my book (http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/index.php?view=51.27728,1.07541&map=OSMap&zoom=9&layer=0) - it's about 50 yards in each case.
I-8 shouldn't end west of I-5 in San Diego.
PA 371 & PA 374 deserve mention here, and PennDOT's predecessor is partially to blame. PA 371 originally went from New Milford PA to its current eastern terminus on the Cochecton - Damascus Bridge over the Delaware River. (When it was designated in 1936.) When the route was truncated back to PA 70 (current day PA 171) in Union Dale in 1954, it left the current-day alignment from Union Dale - New Milford not designated. Low and behold just seven years later, PA 374 and PA 848 are designated on the old alignments of PA 371 (PA 374 only from Lyon Street to well...). There's just one slight problem with PA 374's designation. When they instated the designation they decided that PA 374 would end at PA 171 in Union Dale (renumbered the same year from 70), at the same exact intersection where PA 371 terminates! So even now, 50 years after this really poor choice in decision-making, the routes are the exact same way.
It shouldn't be surprising since its PennDOT and PennDOH, but what can you do. Here's some photos to really hit the nail into this failure:
PA 374 side:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4034%2F4662198226_d038252ee8.jpg&hash=57ba53804d24246917120af213266697db34fd17)
PA 371 side: (No end sign is present at this side of the intersection)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4046%2F4661584733_2966d76cd8.jpg&hash=842e6d4dda131d0bc0ec9994bf7606f49defbf30)
One was however once present: http://www.state-ends.com/paends/state/371.html
It looks like they just axed off the END 371 sign from the same post.
This could easily just be solved by extending 371 back over 374 to 374's current western terminus, or vice-versa, but because its PennDOT, you know that won't happen.
More PA oddities:
For many, many years, the northern terminus of PA 981 was the southern terminus of PA 156 and vice versa.
When US 219 was relocated onto the bypass of Ebensburg, the northern terminus of PA 160 was not moved. Now neither terminus of PA 160 is at a signed PA or US route.
The western terminus of PA 56 is at a bridge over the Allegheny River.
The best of the rest (excluding some of the four digit county routes which have really odd ends):
PA 27's western terminus: SR 1001 in Meadville just blocks north of US 322 and US 6/US 19
PA 28's southern terminus: Anderson Street in Pittsburgh even though it now connects directly to I-279
PA 39's western terminus: SR 3009 in Lucknow where it used to end at US 22/US 322 before those were moved to the expressway
PA 114's eastern terminus: SR 1003 at the entrance to the Capital City Airport
PA 184's eastern terminus: Steam Mill Road in Steam Valley just feet east of US 15
PA 283's western terminus: Eisenhower Boulevard in Highspire just feet west of I-283
PA 308's northern terminus: SR 3013 in Pearl where it ended at PA 8 before it was moved to the expressway
PA 441's northern terminus: Paxton Street in Harrisburg which was originally US 322/US 422
PA 443's western terminus: SR 3009 in Fort Hunter where it ended at US 22/US 322 before those were moved to the expressway
PA 553's western terminus: SR 4004 in Upper Strausburg
PA 910's eastern terminus: SR 1001 in Harmerville which was PA 28 before the Allegheny Valley Expressway was built
There are some other CA highways that come to mind, such as CA-91 and CA-133, that, for all intent and purposes, terminate at CA-1, except they legally don't, because a city or town will relinquish the final section of the highway. In some cases, these highways did terminate properly at another numbered highway, but then later on had their legal definition changed.
Quote from: PAHighways on April 14, 2011, 01:21:18 AM
The best of the rest (excluding some of the four digit county routes which have really odd ends):
PA 27's western terminus: SR 1001 in Meadville just blocks north of US 322 and US 6/US 19
PA 28's southern terminus: Anderson Street in Pittsburgh even though it now connects directly to I-279
PA 39's western terminus: SR 3009 in Lucknow where it used to end at US 22/US 322 before those were moved to the expressway
PA 184's eastern terminus: Steam Mill Road in Steam Valley just feet east of US 15
PA 283's western terminus: Eisenhower Boulevard in Highspire just feet west of I-283
PA 308's northern terminus: SR 3013 in Pearl where it ended at PA 8 before it was moved to the expressway
PA 441's northern terminus: Paxton Street in Harrisburg which was originally US 322/US 422
PA 443's western terminus: SR 3009 in Fort Hunter where it ended at US 22/US 322 before those were moved to the expressway
PA 910's eastern terminus: SR 1001 in Harmerville which was PA 28 before the Allegheny Valley Expressway was built
At least they made sense at some time...
Anyway, how many of these are signed past their logical termini? For example, is PA 443 still signed west of the US 22/322 expressway?
They are still indicated as such on the county and Vidlog maps as well as on Pennsylvania State Route Ends (http://www.state-ends.com/paends/state/).
Quote from: Traffic on March 12, 2011, 11:02:32 PM
How about the west end of US 264? It's last 17 miles are mulitplexed with US 64 to I-440. It should either end at Us 64 near Zebulon or exit to what is now 64 Business (old 64 before the Bypass opened) so they don't overlap. The east end of 264 used to also be overlapped with 64 to go over the Sound to Manteo where they both ended at US 158 (which also ended there). Now they cut the east end back to where they intersect west of the Virginia Dare Bridge.
Another pointless termini is US 401. It used to end at US 1 in Norlina. Recently it was extended north along US 1 to end at I-85 (NC Exit 233).
I've got one more, which is as much a mulitplex question as anything else. NC 24 and 27 are mulitplexed from Charlotte all the way to near Fayetteville, over 100 miles. Add to this, that at the east end, NC 27 ends in Benson, while NC 24 goes all the way to US 70 at Morehead City. On the west end, 24 used to end where 24 and 27 met US 74 (while 27 continued west), but a few years ago, 24 was extended along Harriis Blvd. to end at I-77. Could this long mulitplex be elimininated? Why not end 24 at 27 near Fayetteville (leving only the east section), or kill 27 and renumber the existing 27 west of Charlotte to be 24. Of course, this is now pointless since 24 was extended over Harris Blvd., but that could have been another number and still ended 24 near Fayetteville.
While we're at it, do Us 74 and 76 both have to mulitplex east into and thru Wilmington so they can terminate at opposite ends of Wrightsville Beach (74 on the north and 76 on the south). Seems like one US route would have been enough to go over the causeway. Oh wait, I forgot they take separate routes (74 on MLK and 76 via Oleander) through Wilmington before they meet up just before the drawbridge.
Speaking of which, anyone notice the mathematical error for the US 64/264 split in Zebulon? The exit is Exit 436, which, as you said, is 17 miles away from US 264's terminus at the beltway...but US 64 East is Exit 19 off US 264 west...
They should've ended I-55 at I-90/I-94 instead of Lake Shore Drive... :(
Quote from: Henry on April 18, 2011, 04:03:30 PM
They should've ended I-55 at I-90/I-94 instead of Lake Shore Drive... :(
Why? LSD is a very important road and a major US highway.
Quote from: Brandon on April 18, 2011, 10:16:13 PM
Quote from: Henry on April 18, 2011, 04:03:30 PM
They should've ended I-55 at I-90/I-94 instead of Lake Shore Drive... :(
Why? LSD is a very important road and a major US highway.
True, but the least they could've done was put up an "END I-55" sign at I-90/I-94 and sign the stub past it as "TO US 41", with an additional sign informing motorists that "I-55 ENDS AT I-90/I-94". Kind of similar to what they did with I-70 on the eastern end, once it was clear that it would not go into Baltimore, so they ended it at I-695 instead.
Quote from: Henry on April 19, 2011, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: Brandon on April 18, 2011, 10:16:13 PM
Quote from: Henry on April 18, 2011, 04:03:30 PM
They should've ended I-55 at I-90/I-94 instead of Lake Shore Drive... :(
Why? LSD is a very important road and a major US highway.
True, but the least they could've done was put up an "END I-55" sign at I-90/I-94 and sign the stub past it as "TO US 41", with an additional sign informing motorists that "I-55 ENDS AT I-90/I-94". Kind of similar to what they did with I-70 on the eastern end, once it was clear that it would not go into Baltimore, so they ended it at I-695 instead.
Why end I-55 a full mile from where the carriageway ends?
A counter-example to this: in 1968, with the cancellation of the Western Freeway, I-80 was truncated from an unbuilt terminus in Golden Gate Park in SF to US 101 in the South of Market neighborhood, yet due to a quirk in the language of this change, the official Interstate designation actually began at the now-demolished Route 480 junction (and still remains there to this day). CalTrans has since always signed the start of I-80 at US 101, even if technically the entire San Francisco Skyway segment hasn't "been an interstate" since then.
Quote from: Henry on April 19, 2011, 10:44:59 AM
Kind of similar to what they did with I-70 on the eastern end, once it was clear that it would not go into Baltimore, so they ended it at I-695 instead.
Actually, I-70's stub end is signed as I-70 east from I-695. However, there is a "freeway ends" sign just past the I-695 interchange.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=39.299436,-76.742978&spn=0,0.019248&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.299796,-76.743017&panoid=7e0lczq4b5tlTCKVizgfPg&cbp=12,12.49,,0,-2.51
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=39.302408,-76.742527&spn=0,0.019248&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.302301,-76.742583&panoid=tCFdw_Ynn_LWuSMH5ee9zQ&cbp=12,15,,0,2.71
These last few posts about where an Interstate Highway, not surprisingly, show a difference between those of us who frequent forums like this and the general motoring public.
I doubt that motorists really care whether or not a 2di Interstate ends at another interstate or not. Many (most) odd 3di's end at a non-interstate highway and, if they even think of it at all, ending a 2di not at an interstate isn't an issue either.
So, why not end an Interstate where it makes logical sense? Ending I-55 as Lake Shore Drive (US 41) IMHO makes much more sense than ending it at I-90/94.
This is, naturally, much more likely to occur at the ocean coasts or at the edge of the great lakes.
Quote from: mightyace on April 19, 2011, 02:55:39 PM
These last few posts about where an Interstate Highway, not surprisingly, show a difference between those of us who frequent forums like this and the general motoring public.
I doubt that motorists really care whether or not a 2di Interstate ends at another interstate or not. Many (most) odd 3di's end at a non-interstate highway and, if they even think of it at all, ending a 2di not at an interstate isn't an issue either.
So, why not end an Interstate where it makes logical sense? Ending I-55 as Lake Shore Drive (US 41) IMHO makes much more sense than ending it at I-90/94.
This is, naturally, much more likely to occur at the ocean coasts or at the edge of the great lakes.
Well, I take it all back. Glad you cleared it up.
NY 14's northern "terminus" is a cul-de-sac: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Sodus+Point,+NY&aq=0&sll=43.260519,-76.973219&sspn=0.032753,0.055189&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sodus+Point,+Wayne,+New+York&ll=43.266308,-76.973423&spn=0.004094,0.006899&t=k&z=17
one of the more idiotic terminate-in-a-cul-de-sac roads is the business "loop" of 99 through Pixley, CA:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=pixley+CA&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=30.323858,68.466797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Pixley,+Tulare,+California&ll=35.974412,-119.294368&spn=0.003777,0.008358&t=h&z=17
yeah, you try getting back onto the freeway northbound there.
Is 99 Business signed northbound in Pixley? I can't see any signs on street view.
Quote from: NE2 on April 20, 2011, 09:05:55 PM
Is 99 Business signed northbound in Pixley? I can't see any signs on street view.
hasn't been in
years. the last 'BUSINESS' banner, which was white and once had a US-99 shield under it, vanished sometime around 2006.
OK, so you can't really call that a terminus, since it would logically be signed right on Court and left on Park.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 20, 2011, 08:58:13 PM
one of the more idiotic terminate-in-a-cul-de-sac roads is the business "loop" of 99 through Pixley, CA:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=pixley+CA&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=30.323858,68.466797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Pixley,+Tulare,+California&ll=35.974412,-119.294368&spn=0.003777,0.008358&t=h&z=17
yeah, you try getting back onto the freeway northbound there.
Noticed something about this. I've never seen "END" (and nothing else) on a nondescript diamond warning sign before until now:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=pixley+CA&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=30.323858,68.466797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Pixley,+Tulare,+California&t=h&ll=35.974536,-119.294716&spn=0.002466,0.005681&z=18&layer=c&cbll=35.974536,-119.294716&panoid=DTltWoPApkpNjPqIuRpMHw&cbp=12,1.16,,0,3.57
Quote from: SyntheticDreamer on April 20, 2011, 11:08:58 PM
Noticed something about this. I've never seen "END" (and nothing else) on a nondescript diamond warning sign before until now:
it is a standard sign in California.
I-83 in Baltimore
The fact that I-39 ends in Wausau, WI even though the freeway doesn't end...the same can be said about I-43 in Green Bay
I-294 ends while it's duplexed with I-80. Why not just end at I-80?
The fact that IL-25 and IL-71 end in opposite directions at nearly the same place. Why not make it all the same number?
The fact that I-290 ends at I-90 even though the freeway doesn't end...and it's already with IL-53
The fact that I-64 and I-44 both end in St. Louis when they should just be the same number
IL 48 and IL 127 western terminus at I-55, with both IL 48 and IL 127 multiplex for 7 miles. The best part, its a signed wrong way multiplex with IL 48 going North and IL 127 going South - and you're going due east.
I-44 and I-64 should had been implemented as a same number from day 1 - almost all St. Louisans still refer that certain section of I-64 as "Highway 40" -- almost 25 years after MoDOT got the first permission.
Eastern terminus of I-64 in Hampton Roads could had been redone
IL 111 southern terminus - it could had been realigned along State Street in East St. Louis to end at I-255 or down Lake Road to end at IL 157 or IL 163.
Quote from: kharvey10 on July 16, 2011, 02:06:59 AM
Eastern terminus of I-64 in Hampton Roads could had been redone
How?
The idea has been discussed countless times but no one can ever agree on a proper ending, as no matter how you do it you would either cause one city to lose a 2di, create a situation where a 2di exits itself (which would probably warrant some pointless interchange reconstruction), create random arbitrary beginnings of 3dis, create a new example of an interstate looping around counter to its signed directions (just with a 3di instead of a 2di), or all of the above.
Actually, don't answer this, it's been beaten to death enough already in Fictional Highways, this isn't the place.
I-27 in Lubbock...like why couldn't that just be a spur of I-40?
even more so than that is I-97. apparently, I-995 was taken ... and I-83, well, Baltimore's ability to build freeways is needed is kinda suboptimal.
Quote from: Chicagosuburban on July 16, 2011, 11:20:51 PM
I-27 in Lubbock...like why couldn't that just be a spur of I-40?
My question is why wasn't it extended toward the south and east to connect Amarillo and Lubbock with the rest of Texas?
QuoteMy question is why wasn't it extended toward the south and east to connect Amarillo and Lubbock with the rest of Texas?
Indeed...a connection to I-20 at Midland, Big Spring, or Sweetwater would/should have been easily done.
Quote from: froggie on July 17, 2011, 09:29:43 AM
QuoteMy question is why wasn't it extended toward the south and east to connect Amarillo and Lubbock with the rest of Texas?
Indeed...a connection to I-20 at Midland, Big Spring, or Sweetwater would/should have been easily done.
I would angle it toward Abilene instead
Going to Sweetwater basically covers that, plus would have had the benefit of utilizing an already-existing corridor (US 84).
Quote from: D-Dey65 on April 07, 2011, 02:08:02 PM
But as for other pointless termini; New York State Routes 105 & 106 at each other in North Bellmore! NY 106 should end in Bellmore at either NY 27 or Merrick Road, and NY 105 should either end at NY 24 or NY 102 in Hempstead.
Reminded me of one more pointless termini on LI: NY 347's western termini at the Northern State after a short-ish multiplex with NY 454. I know why I was signed like that -- because of old plans that never came to pass but it serves little purpose nowadays. Have its terminus at 454.
Quote from: froggie on July 17, 2011, 11:48:10 AM
Going to Sweetwater basically covers that, plus would have had the benefit of utilizing an already-existing corridor (US 84).
Oops thats what I meant. Shame on me for messing up Texas geography.
The reason I've seen for ending I-27 in Lubbock is that none of the three corridors south of Lubbock are busy enough to need a full freeway. Here's a map (http://www.itoworld.com/product/data/ito_map/main?view=128&lat=32.73071217992293&lon=-101.93707725708241&zoom=7) showing what's been four-laned (green). Look at the routes from Lubbock to San Antonio vs. Austin. You could take either US 87 or US 84 as part of a route to either, but it seems that each one is more direct for what are really two relatively close destinations. At each one has other destinations tied to it - 87 (or 62/385) to Midland, 84 to Abilene, 84 (or 82) to Dallas...
Quote from: NE2 on July 17, 2011, 08:58:20 PM
The reason I've seen for ending I-27 in Lubbock is that none of the three corridors south of Lubbock are busy enough to need a full freeway. Here's a map (http://www.itoworld.com/product/data/ito_map/main?view=128&lat=32.73071217992293&lon=-101.93707725708241&zoom=7) showing what's been four-laned (green). Look at the routes from Lubbock to San Antonio vs. Austin. You could take either US 87 or US 84 as part of a route to either, but it seems that each one is more direct for what are really two relatively close destinations. At each one has other destinations tied to it - 87 (or 62/385) to Midland, 84 to Abilene, 84 (or 82) to Dallas...
Less than Lubbock to Amarillo?
Lots of mentions of Delaware and no mention of US 202 in New Castle County? Heading south from Pennsylvania, US 202 hits I-95, where it is multiplexed with I-95 through Wilmington while DE-202 continues (pretty poorly signed) into downtown Wilmington. US 202 is then multiplexed with DE-141 SB near New Castle until (I believe) it terminates at US 13/US 40 - while DE 141 continues. I suppose this is to have US 202 end at a US route, but that could easily be achieved by simply routing it through downtown Wilmington to hit US 13...
US 23 in Jacksonville. It is multiplexed with US1 all the way from Alma, GA into Jax. It goes on its own for a couple miles into downtown Jax. Truncate it at Alma. No one even acknowledges US23. Thru Callahan and Hilliard FL the street sign blades only say US 1 and I have never heard anyone call it US1 and 23. Just US 1
The fact that a bunch of state routes end just on the outskirts of Chicago (or in nearby suburbs) even though the roads that they are on continue deep into Chicago. Why can't they just go into Chicago and end there? (IL-1, IL-7, IL-21, IL-38, and US-34)
Quote from: Chicagosuburban on July 18, 2011, 05:22:05 PM
The fact that a bunch of state routes end just on the outskirts of Chicago (or in nearby suburbs) even though the roads that they are on continue deep into Chicago. Why can't they just go into Chicago and end there? (IL-1, IL-7, IL-21, IL-38, and US-34)
They were removed in the Great Purge back in the 60s. Rich Carlson has a bit about that on his webpage.
Quote from: Brandon on July 18, 2011, 09:36:50 PM
Quote from: Chicagosuburban on July 18, 2011, 05:22:05 PM
The fact that a bunch of state routes end just on the outskirts of Chicago (or in nearby suburbs) even though the roads that they are on continue deep into Chicago. Why can't they just go into Chicago and end there? (IL-1, IL-7, IL-21, IL-38, and US-34)
They were removed in the Great Purge back in the 60s. Rich Carlson has a bit about that on his webpage.
I wonder why IL-19, IL-43, IL-50, and IL-64 still go into Chicago. IL-72 also looks like it could have gone farther into Chicago at one point.
Quote from: ftballfan on July 18, 2011, 10:19:30 PM
Quote from: Brandon on July 18, 2011, 09:36:50 PM
Quote from: Chicagosuburban on July 18, 2011, 05:22:05 PM
The fact that a bunch of state routes end just on the outskirts of Chicago (or in nearby suburbs) even though the roads that they are on continue deep into Chicago. Why can't they just go into Chicago and end there? (IL-1, IL-7, IL-21, IL-38, and US-34)
They were removed in the Great Purge back in the 60s. Rich Carlson has a bit about that on his webpage.
I wonder why IL-19, IL-43, IL-50, and IL-64 still go into Chicago. IL-72 also looks like it could have gone farther into Chicago at one point.
I'm guessing that IDOT was judicious in which routes they kept and which they turned back. 64 is nowhere near an expressway, and 19 seems to serve a similar purpose. 43 and 50 cross through the city to points north and south. I'd have to check the old maps, but IIRC, 72 did go further previously. IDOT also replaced 55 with 56 west of where they met (22nd St is still a state route though). And they got rid of 65 between Naperville and Aurora.
US-211 used to extend all the way into DC, multiplexed with US-29 for the whole route east of Warrenton. It made no sense and evidently the powers that be agreed, as in 1980 it was truncated to end in Warrenton. But the terminus is still strange: It ends at the intersection with US-15/29/211 Business (in front of what used to be Joe Jacoby's car dealership) instead of extending to meet the US-15/17/29 bypass. Instead, the interchange with the bypass is served by US-211 Business. Seems strange to have the regular routing end to the west like that when there is no US-211 Bypass in the Warrenton area.
The entirety of US 211 is pointless.
Quote from: Chicagosuburban on July 15, 2011, 03:10:01 PM
I-294 ends while it's duplexed with I-80. Why not just end at I-80?
I'm guessing this is for continuity's sake for the Tri-State Tollway. My question is why they can't end the Tollway at I-80. I really know why-it's a way to make something off of I-80 travelers and while the toll to travel through on I-80 isn't much, it's an annoyance as it slows traffic down. It also makes it practically impossible to travel through the Chicago area without paying a toll somewhere(which I'm sure is the point), unless you want to take city streets or go way out of the way(which the extra gas defeats the purpose of avoiding a toll in the first place).
Quote from: Chicagosuburban on July 15, 2011, 03:10:01 PM
I-294 ends while it's duplexed with I-80. Why not just end at I-80?
For the same reason I-280 continues along I-74. IDOT believes an even 3di must reconnect to its parent. Hence why I-155 and I-355 are odd 3dis.
QuoteThe entirety of US 211 is pointless.
Disagree...even though it's single-state, it's a primary route and one of only two across the Blue Ridge between Waynesboro and Front Royal.
QuoteInstead, the interchange with the bypass is served by US-211 Business.
Not since 1980. US 211 and its business route end at the same intersection, just west of the bypass.
Quote from: froggie on July 25, 2011, 08:08:13 AM
QuoteThe entirety of US 211 is pointless.
Disagree...even though it's single-state, it's a primary route and one of only two across the Blue Ridge between Waynesboro and Front Royal.
Not saying the road is pointless. Just the US designation. It would work just as well as VA 211 for its entirety.