Dutch Bike Signal
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5089%2F5263483734_cfaef51f8f_z.jpg&hash=1109b38808de7cfd40b28e0b0f52650a1196acfa)
(Not my photo: just something I stumbled across)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.static.flickr.com%2F1202%2F5102066846_266c5d47e3_z_d.jpg&hash=1835c87ddf257b29269f1d95083e7878595dd1a7) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/5102066846)
Something less than a mile from me. DC proper has at least 2 (that I know of) and Arlington County has at least 1.
There's one here (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=50.93778,-1.399528&spn=0,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=50.937817,-1.399363&panoid=NzEvXir-Gj-q2jI1IFoUNA&cbp=12,345.62,,0,-0.22) (you can't see it as it's on red and British rules have it that only the green is shaped).
Are these used to control a bike lane separate from regular travel lanes and pedestrians?
I'm confused by the presence of both a red light and a yield.
Quote from: realjd on May 20, 2011, 03:07:44 PM
Are these used to control a bike lane separate from regular travel lanes and pedestrians?
The bike paths (at least the ones here) appear to be totally separate from regular travel lanes except in instances where they cross.
Is it me or do some of the bike symbols point left and some point right? :confused:
Quote from: NE2 on May 20, 2011, 03:10:12 PM
I'm confused by the presence of both a red light and a yield.
I think the yield is for car traffic to the right of the island while the light is for bike traffic to the left of the island.
Quote from: NE2 on May 20, 2011, 03:10:12 PM
I'm confused by the presence of both a red light and a yield.
In Europe, they sign a backup sign that comes into effect if the light goes out for a power outage or something.
And the critical massholes will still blow through them on red. :ded:
Seriously though, they are rather neat. Wouldn't mind seeing them around here.
Almost every traffic signal-controlled intersection in the Netherlands has a separate set of signals for bicyclists.
Quote from: Brandon on May 20, 2011, 11:31:10 PM
And the critical massholes will still blow through them on red. :ded:
A few might, but it's their funeral...literally
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cool-smileys.com%2Fimages%2F107.gif&hash=40165a214a485266a180182a6e79c24235fa6e35) (http://www.cool-smileys.com/rip-tombstone-smiley-icon)
^^ Very much so. A few years ago a driver was proceeding through an intersection on green up on Chicago's north side and hit one of these fools who was involved in a guerrilla bike race on city streets. With folks like this, I'm starting to wonder if having a license for a bicycle is not a bad idea. At lease it would make tickets easier to issue.
We license motorists because bad driving can cause danger to others.
Quote from: NE2 on May 22, 2011, 03:44:55 PM
We license motorists because bad driving can cause danger to others.
I've been damn near run over, as a pedestrian, by a bicyclist who thought that doing 20mph on the sidewalk, contraflow to traffic, was some kind of a Good Idea.
It'd be awesome if we could get back on topic and talk about bike signals (and perhaps bike signage, as well) rather than driving behavior. Let's aim for that?
Quote from: Steve on May 22, 2011, 05:32:10 PM
It'd be awesome if we could get back on topic and talk about bike signals (and perhaps bike signage, as well) rather than driving behavior. Let's aim for that?
fair enough. you can delete everything starting with "massholes".
I don't know if it's possible. Would one expect a thread about NMSL signage to stay away from discussion of the politics of the NMSL? Or a thread about signage of the Perkins Union to stay away from its laws? :)
Quote from: NE2 on May 22, 2011, 05:33:58 PM
Or a thread about signage of the Perkins Union to stay away from its laws? :)
dude, we both know that discussion of the laws of the Perkins Union is punishable by death.
Fortunately they don't have any extradition treaties.
FWIW: some cities have Pedestrian/Bike Signals that are only a flashing yellow for through traffic and flashing red for Bikes/Pedestrians. Plus they are "push button" signals: they only work if you press the button (not unlike crosswalk signals).
There are some an hour north of me, so I guess I need to check them out one of these days.
Quote from: NE2 on May 22, 2011, 05:42:06 PM
Fortunately they don't have any extradition treaties.
they have no need for them. once they determine the magnitude of your crime, you are quietly vanished out of our space-time continuum. this is of course independent of where you may be geographically located when you commit your unthinkable crimes.
your only hope for perpetuating your criminal mischief is to cleverly position yourself in the space-time continuum into which they
send folks.
Maybe this thread and the NACTO one should be merged into a more general "Bicycles and Road Design" topic?
Quote from: realjd on May 20, 2011, 03:07:44 PM
Are these used to control a bike lane separate from regular travel lanes and pedestrians?
It is quite common to have separate traffic signals for motorized traffic, cyclists and pedestrians, though cyclists and pedestrians usually go within the same phase. In most situations, cyclist traffic signals have priority over other traffic. I know instances where cyclists get a green phase 3 times within one traffic signal cycle. If cyclists cross a road with more than 20 000 vehicles per day or 4 lanes or more, there is usually a cyclist tunnel or bridge.
Cyclist tunnels are a win-win situation. They are safer and faster for cyclists, and motorized traffic gets rid of the cyclist phase, speeding up traffic. I know instances where traffic jams disappeared almost completely once the cyclist phase was removed from an signaled intersection.
Quote from: Chris on May 23, 2011, 11:32:58 AM
Cyclist tunnels are a win-win situation.
Agreed, if they're designed well (e.g. wide enough, no sharp turns) and don't close at night X-(
Cyclist tunnels in the Netherlands generally have a 15 ft wide roadway plus a sidewalk, making the entire tunnel 20 - 25 feet wide easily. They are usually also well-lit and have long ramps.
examples;
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqUWaH.jpg&hash=1ab82765c0d51fbc304847ab1cf0066ac60b5b66)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjAAGY.jpg&hash=912080dc944baede4e46d4d5da18a6d7bc1e9bc9)
Americans are afraid of pedestrian and bike tunnels in my experience. People will often call them "rape tunnels". They almost ripped out the new one in Viera, FL near the high school to allow students to cross the busy street because parents thought it would attract kidnappers. Talk about poor risk assessment. They're more worried about their teenagers being kidnapped in the short tunnel right in front of the school than they are about them getting hit by a car crossing the street.
Social safety in tunnels is a major issue in the Netherlands as well. It all begins with the proper design; you need to be able to look through the entire tunnel from the beginning, the tunnel section must not be too long, nor in a long curve (my first one is a bad example), well-lit and also the cladding must be bright. It helps if the police does occasional surveillance as well, I often see motorcycle cops driving through cyclist tunnels at night.
If a tunnel is too much of a hideout for sketchy characters, how about a bridge instead?
Bridges are known to be home to trolls. (They're also less convenient, since you go up then down; in a tunnel you get the speed boost first. And they need to be higher than a tunnel is low to clear trucks.)
One of the small things I noticed when I was looking around the Netherlands with Google Streetview is that if a road goes into a tunnel and there is a cycle path next to it, the cycle path doesn't make such a vertical change. So if the road needs 16' of clearance and the cycle path needs 10', the road goes down 16' feet and the path only makes a vertical change of 10'. Make sense?
I've seen this on some older railroad grade separations in the US - the sidewalk will not go down as much as the road. Here's one in Jacksonville where the sidewalk stays with the road but an old streetcar route in the middle is higher: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.329356,-81.676628&spn=0.00401,0.0103&z=18&layer=c&cbll=30.329455,-81.676608&panoid=dJGttQPFrFM1bW-yajWwNQ&cbp=12,172.48,,0,-5.44
^^^
Me, too. Here's one where the sidewalk is higher than the roadway.
US 11 going under Norfolk Southern (ex-PRR) in Norhtumberland, PA
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Northumberland,+PA&aq=0&sll=30.329453,-81.676607&sspn=0.002144,0.004823&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Northumberland,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.886005,-76.795635&spn=0.030044,0.077162&z=14&layer=c&cbll=40.886101,-76.795568&panoid=fDgULJLr_9KgDRUSJDpTJg&cbp=12,36.54,,0,-2.2
Quote from: Zmapper on May 25, 2011, 12:41:47 AM
One of the small things I noticed when I was looking around the Netherlands with Google Streetview is that if a road goes into a tunnel and there is a cycle path next to it, the cycle path doesn't make such a vertical change. So if the road needs 16' of clearance and the cycle path needs 10', the road goes down 16' feet and the path only makes a vertical change of 10'. Make sense?
Yep!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.static.flickr.com%2F1170%2F4727696830_59dbd07240_z.jpg&hash=053d027b8084c7f3d072824bd876b0ad728691d0) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/4727696830/)
N36-25 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/4727696830/) by Chriszwolle (http://www.flickr.com/people/chriszwolle/), on Flickr
^ That seems kinda odd to me. Ultimately, though, I imagine it helps to maintain the vehicle/bicycle separation. It also means possibly means less earthwork during construction (but also more in retaining walls). Any particular reason why the paths are constructed this way?
Also less effort for bicyclists to go up a hill on the way out.
I imagine it's two-part....vehicles (especially small trucks) need more clearance, and as Scott indicated, bicyclists are more sensitive to grade changes.
Yep, the main reason is that cyclists will need less effort to scale the grades in these tunnels. It's more comfortable. There are guidelines in the Netherlands about how long a cyclist ramp may be and what grades it should have. If it's too long, they need to include a flat section before the second climb commences, though you won't find that many of those. Keep in mind there are also numerous young children and senior citizens using a bicycle in the Netherlands, that's why you cannot just design such things for fit adults only.
Here's an example of such a grade broken into two sections:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3351%2F4618890409_55aea9de0c_z.jpg&hash=8b547771a51e88599816aa53b789c249538db848) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/4618890409/)
N302-5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/4618890409/) by Chriszwolle (http://www.flickr.com/people/chriszwolle/), on Flickr
Another example of grade separation between car lanes and bike/ped paths in a tunnel. http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.315068,-73.918483&spn=0.008495,0.016351&z=16&layer=c&cbll=45.315041,-73.918593&panoid=_yOD6lUwsbokUdDgFK7D2A&cbp=12,267.93,,0,16.18