In one month, I'm going to be driving to Houlton, Maine. This will be the most expensive road trip I have ever taken. Besides the cost of gas I'm more annoyed by the number of tolls I must pass through on the way there. Sure, there are some that I do plan on bypassing and there are others where I "must" drive through.
So, the tolls that I will be passing through are the ones on I-95 between Baltimore and Houlton. Can anyone shed some light on how many toll booths I have to pass through and how much each will cost? Doing some research, I expect to encounter about 12. Does that sound about right? Also, is change given at the toll booths?
I have only driven through two toll booths in my life. And I must say that I HATE THEM! I don't like the idea of paying to drive on a road, especially if it's an interstate. But I am going to suck it up and pay (at least for I-95).
Quote from: AZDude on May 30, 2011, 06:54:50 PM
So, the tolls that I will be passing through are the ones on I-95 between Baltimore and Houlton. Can anyone shed some light on how many toll booths I have to pass through and how much each will cost? Doing some research, I expect to encounter about 12. Does that sound about right? Also, is change given at the toll booths?
I have only driven through two toll booths in my life. And I must say that I HATE THEM! I don't like the idea of paying to drive on a road, especially if it's an interstate. But I am going to suck it up and pay (at least for I-95).
1. Most toll plazas on in the east give change at their manual lanes (we do here in Illinois and Indiana).
2. There is no such thing as a free road. You pay through gas taxes or tolls.
I count 11 toll booths, but 1 of them you don't pay at because you're picking up a ticket (entering the Jersey Turnpike). Drop the total number to 10 if you take I-695 around the north side of Baltimore.
I fully agree with Brandon's #2. In the case of these toll facilities on I-95 you'll be going through: unlike the Interstates you're familiar with, none of them have received gas tax money. Their construction and upkeep has all been through toll revenue.
Thank you. Since we are on the subject, how about I-90 between I-91 and I-39?
I assume you will bypass the notorious Delaware Turnpike tollbooth, especially given the ongoing roadwork there as they build high-speed E-ZPass lanes. If you don't know the bypass route, do a Google search for "avoid Delaware Turnpike toll." Obey the speed limits on the streets you use for the bypass, however. Since you're skipping the tollbooth and driving through local streets, any cop running radar won't likely cut you a break. In my mind that's a fair tradeoff to obey the speed limit there in order to avoid the $4.00 toll that is levied ONLY on traffic crossing the state line.
Quote from: froggie on May 30, 2011, 09:11:35 PM
I count 11 toll booths, but 1 of them you don't pay at because you're picking up a ticket (entering the Jersey Turnpike). Drop the total number to 10 if you take I-695 around the north side of Baltimore.
....
I would think the "ticket" point would apply on the Massachusetts Turnpike as well depending on the route one takes.
I come up with potentially as many as 14 tollbooths depending on the route one uses. This list is for the northbound trip only, using I-95 through Maryland and then, after reaching Connecticut, I-84 to the Massachusetts Turnpike to I-495 back to I-95 at the New Hampshire state line:
(1) Baltimore (tunnels or Key Bridge, unless you go around the long way on the north side)–both tunnels and the bridge charge $2.00
(2) Susquehanna River–$5.00
(3) Delaware Turnpike (easily avoided)–$4.00
(4) NJ Turnpike entrance (get ticket; no payment made)
(5) NJ Turnpike exit (surrender ticket and pay)–rate varies depending on where you enter and exit
(6) Hudson River crossing (comes after 7c if you use the Garden State Parkway)–$8.00 for the GW Bridge or $5.00 for the Tappan Zee Bridge
(7a) New England Thruway if you use I-95 through the New York City area–$1.75
(7b) Union barrier on Garden State Parkway if you use that route–$1.00
(7c) Bergen barrier on Garden State Parkway if you use that route–$1.00
( 8 ) Massachusetts Turnpike entrance (get ticket; no payment made)
(9) Massachusetts Turnpike exit (surrender ticket and pay)–rate varies depending on where you enter and exit
(10) New Hampshire Turnpike–$2.00
(11) York barrier on Maine Turnpike–$2.00
(12) New Gloucester barrier on Maine Turnpike–$1.75
(13) West Gardiner barrier on Maine Turnpike–$1.25
7a through 7c are listed as such because if you use the Garden State Parkway you don't hit the New England Thruway toll and vice-versa, so I view those as alternatives. The total of 14 toll plazas reflects 7b and 7c counting as two if you go that way. You can avoid all three of them if you take the Palisades Parkway or I-287, although the latter is way out of the way if you are using the I-95 route. If you come up through Pennsylvania, you can avoid all the tolls until the Hudson River crossing.
As mentioned above, the Delaware Turnpike toll is easily avoided.
#12 and #13 are easily avoided by using I-295 in Maine. Note that if you do this you should take Exit 45 rather than Exit 44. Exit 44 is marked for I-295. It has a $1.00 toll. The very next exit is less than half a mile away and has no exit toll; you can then get onto I-295 just to the east of there. Take I-295 up to where it ends at I-95 near West Gardiner. You will have to pay a $1.00 toll to get back onto I-95; on the other hand, it was a shorter drive up I-295 and you'll have saved a net of $2.00 on the two barriers if that matters to you.
The tolls are different on the southbound route due to one-way tolling at various locations.
QuoteI would think the "ticket" point would apply on the Massachusetts Turnpike as well depending on the route one takes.
He specifically mentioned I-95, hence why I didn't count the MassPike or Garden State Parkway. Plus the ticket system on the MassPike doesn't extend east of 128...it's cash barriers east of there into Boston proper.
Quote from: froggie on May 31, 2011, 09:29:06 AM
QuoteI would think the "ticket" point would apply on the Massachusetts Turnpike as well depending on the route one takes.
He specifically mentioned I-95, hence why I didn't count the MassPike or Garden State Parkway. Plus the ticket system on the MassPike doesn't extend east of 128...it's cash barriers east of there into Boston proper.
Fair enough. I interpreted his use of "I-95" in a more general sense in the way that many people use "I-95" as a sort of catchall term for the I-95 corridor. Or I guess I should put it this way–I'm the type of person who scrutinizes all available routes to be prepared for any eventuality with respect to traffic, accidents, or just plain feeling like going a different way, so I tend to lay out options when listing them for other people as well.
That is some really good info! Some tolls are not as much as I thought they were. Thanks! And yes, I do plan on staying on I-95 the entire way. But it's good to know the alternatives incase I need to use them.
Quote from: AZDude on May 31, 2011, 11:03:00 AM
That is some really good info! Some tolls are not as much as I thought they were. Thanks! And yes, I do plan on staying on I-95 the entire way. But it's good to know the alternatives incase I need to use them.
But, you can't stay on I-95 through New Jersey. There is a gap. The various choices have different tolls.
Option 1. I-295 in Delaware to NJ Turnpike (which merges with I-95).
Option 1a. I-295 in Delaware to I-2195 New Jersey to NJ Turnpike (I-95).
Option 2. PA 413 to US 13 to I 276 (PA Turnpike) which becomes I-95 in New Jersey.
If you feel that strongly about tolls, it must be longer than 95, but:
From Baltimore: I-83 north to Harrisburg, Pa.
Then I-81 north to Scranton, Pa.
Then I-84 east to Sturbridge, Mass.
Then I-90/Mass. Turnpike to Auburn
Then I-290 through Worcester to 495
Then I-495 to 95 at Salisbury Mass.
....
The only tolls by that route (until the Massachusetts/New Hampshire border) are on 84 crossing the Hudson and on the short stretch of the Massachusetts Turnpike. Once you're in New Hampshire, it's either leave freeways or pay.
Do you have time to get an E-ZPass from somewhere? That would help in avoiding lines at tollbooths.
^^And (perhaps depending where you get your pass) you can start using it immediately rather than waiting for it to come in the mail.
I got mine when, driving home from Cleveland one afternoon (yes, left there at 12:15 and was home about 8, which, since it was the end of June, was still "afternoon" as the sun wasn't down yet), I realized I'd forgotten to use the ATM and didn't have enough cash for the Turnpike across the state, and learned at the entrance booth they didn't take cards. Had been meaning to get E-ZPass anyway, and since they sell them at some Turnpike rest areas and (if you get them at said Turnpike rest areas) you can use it to pay for the trip you're currently on, that's how I handled that....
When you consider avoiding tolls, consider the amount of gas you're going to burn trying to avoid them, and you can't avoid the tolls completely anyway, especially in New Hampshire and Maine (just using Exit 45 instead of 44 won't totally avoid the ME Turnpike tolls, anyway, as the Turnpike is concurrent with I-95 just getting into Portland, and you pay a toll getting back on to I-95 in Gardiner, near Augusta). If you think you can handle I-95 traffic, don't let tolls vs. non-tolls sway you.
I-81 to I-84 is a beautiful drive in the Poconos and Catskills, but it can be a long way to get there.
Bottom line, you can't avoid the tolls, just lessen the # of them.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on May 31, 2011, 01:51:50 PM
If you feel that strongly about tolls, it must be longer than 95, but:
From Baltimore: I-83 north to Harrisburg, Pa.
Then I-81 north to Scranton, Pa.
Then I-84 east to Sturbridge, Mass.
Then I-90/Mass. Turnpike to Auburn
Then I-290 through Worcester to 495
Then I-495 to 95 at Salisbury Mass.
Thanks, but I want to stay on I-95 so that I can drive through Delaware and Rhode Island. I know, if I want something I have to pay for it. :-P
Quote from: OracleUsr on May 31, 2011, 08:43:10 PM
When you consider avoiding tolls, consider the amount of gas you're going to burn trying to avoid them, and you can't avoid the tolls completely anyway, especially in New Hampshire and Maine (just using Exit 45 instead of 44 won't totally avoid the ME Turnpike tolls, anyway, as the Turnpike is concurrent with I-95 just getting into Portland, and you pay a toll getting back on to I-95 in Gardiner, near Augusta). If you think you can handle I-95 traffic, don't let tolls vs. non-tolls sway you.
I-81 to I-84 is a beautiful drive in the Poconos and Catskills, but it can be a long way to get there.
Bottom line, you can't avoid the tolls, just lessen the # of them.
I'm aware of that. As I said earlier, I will not avoid the ones on I-95 (or parallel routes if I need to take them). I guess I should have been more specific. The ones I plan on avoiding are on the return trip (I-90 between I-91 and I-39). And even then I will drive through some of them. On some part of that route I will use Ohio 2 and U.S. 20.
Edit: Here is a map of the route I plan on taking.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3548%2F5783758547_69d865dccd_z.jpg&hash=fb47a6fabeb46c1b1bb73c3fec42d9def621e630)
Red is the trip there, Green is the return trip, and the blue dots are were I'm spending the night.
If you're looking to get all of the I-95 mileage, you will actually want to take I-95 north into NJ, U-turn at US 1, go back down to the PA Turnpike (no direct access from 95 yet), then head east onto the NJ Turnpike from there. You could cut the corner on US 1 through Trenton but that has a toll to go back into PA. Also, if your I-95 use occurs during a weekday or weekend (99.999% likely), expect at least 1.5 hours of total traffic between Baltimore and Boston.
One thing that crossed my mind, is New Jersey the other state where you can't pump your own gas? I have no problem with that. I just want to know so that I don't look dumb if I try to pump gas.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on May 31, 2011, 02:17:09 PMI got mine when, driving home from Cleveland one afternoon (yes, left there at 12:15 and was home about 8, which, since it was the end of June, was still "afternoon" as the sun wasn't down yet), I realized I'd forgotten to use the ATM and didn't have enough cash for the Turnpike across the state, and learned at the entrance booth they didn't take cards.
You're from Philadelphia and didn't know the Turnpike doesn't take credit cards?
Quote from: AZDude on May 31, 2011, 08:54:20 PM
Edit: Here is a map of the route I plan on taking.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3548%2F5783758547_69d865dccd_z.jpg&hash=fb47a6fabeb46c1b1bb73c3fec42d9def621e630)
Red is the trip there, Green is the return trip, and the blue dots are were I'm spending the night.
Any particular reason for I-44 to I-64 through Kentucky and West Virginia, as opposed to I-40 to I-81 through Tennessee?
I can assure you that the southerly route is much more scenic, especially once you get past Knoxville and hit I-81 through Virginia. That would also save you tolls on I-44 in Oklahoma.
If you stick with the northerly route, I have spent the night in Springfield, Mo. at the Econo Lodge, Charleston, WV at the Motel 6 and the Sleep Inn, and Norwalk, Ct. at the Econo Lodge, and would recommend all of them as decent places to stay (although the Sleep Inn in Charleston is pricey).
^^ Because I havent been to Kentucky or West Virginia yet.
Quote from: PAHighways on May 31, 2011, 11:52:38 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on May 31, 2011, 02:17:09 PMI got mine when, driving home from Cleveland one afternoon (yes, left there at 12:15 and was home about 8, which, since it was the end of June, was still "afternoon" as the sun wasn't down yet), I realized I'd forgotten to use the ATM and didn't have enough cash for the Turnpike across the state, and learned at the entrance booth they didn't take cards.
You're from Philadelphia and didn't know the Turnpike doesn't take credit cards?
I've been living in Center City since 1994 - one of the few places in the country where carlessness is actually practical - and, more out of necessity than choice, lived without a car for nearly 15 years. That road trip to Cleveland was about a month after I bought my Dad's car, and the first time since the early 90s I'd been west of Breezewood (which I'd done a few months earlier just for the heck of it). In pre-Center City days I'd have just had enough cash on me (and it would never have occurred to me that a toll road would take anything but cash, but in 2009 it was worth a shot, and as I say I'd just forgotten got get cash before I started home. (I also disapprove of foreign-ATM fees and will only pay them if I'm actually in a foreign country, so the non-Wachovia machines on the Turnpike were not helpful).
I believe European toll roads take cards - they'd better, for those prices - and don't some of the more expensive bridges on the East Coast? The Turnpike's not cheap if you take it all the way from Ohio to King of Prussia....
Quote from: AZDude on May 31, 2011, 10:40:58 PM
One thing that crossed my mind, is New Jersey the other state where you can't pump your own gas? I have no problem with that. I just want to know so that I don't look dumb if I try to pump gas.
Yes it is.
Heading from Delaware to R.I. you will NOT want to stay on 95 all the way as Fairfield County traffic is really depressing.
Tappan Zee Bridge: NJ Turnpike to Exit 10, I-287 north to I-287 east/I-87 south [NY Thruway over the Tappan Zee Bridge], then 287 east thru Westchester to the Merritt Parkway, rejoining I-95 in either Milford at Exit 54 [on the Merrit] or take the Wilbur Cross up to either CT 80 or thru Middletown to CT 66 over to CT 9, rejoining 95 in Essex/Old Saybrook at Exit 69 [use CT 9 only if it's a weekend or night as New Haven and Q Bridge traffic will be brutal].
GW Bridge: Get off 95 at Exit 3 [I-87/Major Deegan Expressway]. Follow this to Exit 5 in Westchester [Central Avenue/NY 100] and take that briefly to the Sprain Brook Parkway north, then get on 287 and use the above routes thru connecticut.
The tollbooths in MD/DE are certiantly avoidable, you can cross the Delaware for free further up in PA if you want, and NJ Turnpike is just picking up a ticket, and paying for it 115 miles later, not that bad. An EZ Pass would certiantly make things easier. Note that the Merrit Pkwy is only for passenger vehicles, no trucks or commercial. And if you're trying for a 95 clinch, GOOD LUCK. :D
And as for NJ gas, you are correct, but I've done it myself plenty of times. The Vince Lombardi Rest Area [right before GWB] usually has some of the cheapest gas around.
Actually, all of the service plazas on the NJ Turnpike and GS Parkway have the same gas prices and they can only change once per week. By law.
Quote from: newyorker478 on June 01, 2011, 06:07:51 PM
Tappan Zee Bridge: NJ Turnpike to Exit 10, I-287 north to I-287 east/I-87 south [NY Thruway over the Tappan Zee Bridge], then 287 east thru Westchester to the Merritt Parkway, rejoining I-95 in either Milford at Exit 54 [on the Merrit] or take the Wilbur Cross up to either CT 80 or thru Middletown to CT 66 over to CT 9, rejoining 95 in Essex/Old Saybrook at Exit 69 [use CT 9 only if it's a weekend or night as New Haven and Q Bridge traffic will be brutal].
How are you getting to CT80 from the Parkway? It ends at I-91.
At any rate, 95 can certainly be a coin toss traffic wise. US1 works as an alternative for short distances, but isn't better unless traffic gets pretty bad. The Parkway is a nice detour longer term but if you're going through during the evening rush hour you will likely hit traffic there too starting just after exit 34.
Meant to clarify. Merrit -> Wilbur Cross -> CT 34 -> State Street -> hop on I-91 briefly -> CT 80 -> CT 22 -> Boston Post rd rejoining I-95 at Exit 57 near Guliford. I do this b/c New Haven and Q bridge traffic can be brutal. During rush hour, yes there is no real alternative though I would rather be stuck briefly on the Merrit than for god knows how long on 95. US 1 just doesn't work. OP could try 684, 84 and US 6 to Providence if they felt so inclined. Also, if OP wanted to take the Port Jeff-Bridgeport Ferry they could go over Staten Island and take Belt, Cross Island parkways to LIE and then Northern state -> 347. This is mostly for senicity on the ferry and wouldn't really help avoid much traffic. IMHO, best way to avoid traffic is to go over S.I., [brave the Belt Pkwy traffic], then route of choice [SSP/NSP/LIE/Sunrise Hwy] out to Riverhead, where you pick up NY 25 then ferry over to New London. SI and Brooklyn might be rough but HOV on the LIE will fly you out [they rarley check] and once in NL it's 45min to Providence and 15 min to Westerly. Also no tolls on Long Island :colorful: good luck!
Quote from: Michael in Philly on May 31, 2011, 01:51:50 PM
If you feel that strongly about tolls, it must be longer than 95, but:
From Baltimore: I-83 north to Harrisburg, Pa.
Then I-81 north to Scranton, Pa.
Then I-84 east to Sturbridge, Mass.
Then I-90/Mass. Turnpike to Auburn
Then I-290 through Worcester to 495
Then I-495 to 95 at Salisbury Mass.
....
The only tolls by that route (until the Massachusetts/New Hampshire border) are on 84 crossing the Hudson and on the short stretch of the Massachusetts Turnpike. Once you're in New Hampshire, it's either leave freeways or pay.
This way is pretty fast and has few tolls. I use it to drive to Acadia National Park every other year (except I start on I-80 instead of 83). Of course, coming from Central PA, this is the only way that makes sense. The only traffic spots on this route are Danbury/Hartford, CT and Lowell, MA (especially on a weekend).
Another completely free toll way would be:
I-81 --> I-84 --> I-384 --> US6 --> I-395 --> I-290 --> I-495
A little bit of two-lane in eastern CT, but you can bypass pretty much all toll roads that way as well as the bulk of the traffic you'll experience the other way.
Why not I-84 to US 20 to I-290?
Quote from: Sykotyk on June 02, 2011, 12:17:16 PM
Another completely free toll way would be:
I-81 --> I-84 --> I-384 --> US6 --> I-395 --> I-290 --> I-495
A little bit of two-lane in eastern CT, but you can bypass pretty much all toll roads that way as well as the bulk of the traffic you'll experience the other way.
Not completely toll-free because you have to pay to cross the Hudson, but unless you go way far north out of your way you can't avoid that.
Quote from: NE2 on June 02, 2011, 12:22:47 PM
Why not I-84 to US 20 to I-290?
You lose 5-10 minutes along that one link just for that short distance.
Are there any coin operated toll booths along this route?
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 02, 2011, 01:25:24 PM
Quote from: Sykotyk on June 02, 2011, 12:17:16 PM
Another completely free toll way would be:
I-81 --> I-84 --> I-384 --> US6 --> I-395 --> I-290 --> I-495
A little bit of two-lane in eastern CT, but you can bypass pretty much all toll roads that way as well as the bulk of the traffic you'll experience the other way.
Not completely toll-free because you have to pay to cross the Hudson, but unless you go way far north out of your way you can't avoid that.
Yeah, forgot about the bridge. But, it beats the $8 or so for the GWB. At least that one is free on the way back.
Quote from: Sykotyk on June 02, 2011, 08:33:18 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 02, 2011, 01:25:24 PM
Quote from: Sykotyk on June 02, 2011, 12:17:16 PM
Another completely free toll way would be:
I-81 --> I-84 --> I-384 --> US6 --> I-395 --> I-290 --> I-495
A little bit of two-lane in eastern CT, but you can bypass pretty much all toll roads that way as well as the bulk of the traffic you'll experience the other way.
Not completely toll-free because you have to pay to cross the Hudson, but unless you go way far north out of your way you can't avoid that.
Yeah, forgot about the bridge. But, it beats the $8 or so for the GWB. At least that one is free on the way back.
All Hudson River toll bridges [with the exception of the Berkshire Spur which is part of the NY Thruway ticket system] have one-way tolls, eastbound only. unfortunately. this encourages trucks from Bklyn, Qns and LI to take the Williamsburg or Manhattan bridges, then cut thru downtown to the Holland Tunnel, creating this crosstown truck jam.
Quote from: AZDude on June 02, 2011, 07:41:01 PM
Are there any coin operated toll booths along this route?
Nope. The NYC-area bridges all used to have toll machines, but they did away with those in favor of E-ZPass lanes.
Back before I got an E-ZPass I used to bring dollar coins for paying tolls. Back then that meant Susan B. Anthony dollars. Some of the toll collectors didn't much appreciate that!
The rest of this topic has been moved to Off-Topic (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=9).
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4819.0
Well, you guys I made it there and back without any problems. Fun drive, 6649 miles. While driving there I saw Arizona cars until Kentucky. On the way back I didn't see any until I was ready to leave my motel in Spirit Lake, IA. There was one parked next to me! But as far as on the highway, I didn't see any until Colorado.
As far a driving in the New York Metro area, not a big deal. Peoples driving habits, merging 4 lanes over to exit, merging anyway with almost no room, cutting people off. Not any different from here. Perhaps it was an off day. Still not a fan of tolls, but I like the safety of service plazas. I almost forgot about no self serve gas stations in New Jersey, until I saw the attendants. In Chicago, I missed a toll and mistakenly drove through the I-pass lane. The construction confused me and I didn't see the cash lane until it was too late. So the next toll plaza I told the attendant and she gave me a purple slip with instructions on what to do. When I got to my motel, I paid the toll online. By the way who was the genious that decided to make the Chicago Skyway 45 MPH? It is more than capable of 55 at the least.
One thing that annoyed me was that every metro that I passed through was under construction. The worst being Tulsa. I mean it is so narrow, with at grade ramps. I wonder what the freeway looked like before the construction.
If anyone ever decides to stay the night in Houlton, ME, I recommend staying in the Stardust Motel. The owner was very friendly and was even from Arizona! Imagine that. The Motel has big rooms, Satellite TV, and free high speed internet via an ethernet. The room itself looks like a mini appartment minus the kitchen.
Here is a video of the trip there.
The return trip.
Quote from: AZDude on July 11, 2011, 09:28:51 PM
As far a driving in the New York Metro area, not a big deal. Peoples driving habits, merging 4 lanes over to exit, merging anyway with almost no room, cutting people off. Not any different from here. Perhaps it was an off day. Still not a fan of tolls, but I like the safety of service plazas. I almost forgot about no self serve gas stations in New Jersey, until I saw the attendants. In Chicago, I missed a toll and mistakenly drove through the I-pass lane. The construction confused me and I didn't see the cash lane until it was too late. So the next toll plaza I told the attendant and she gave me a purple slip with instructions on what to do. When I got to my motel, I paid the toll online. By the way who was the genious that decided to make the Chicago Skyway 45 MPH? It is more than capable of 55 at the least.
I think the issues on NYC freeways are caused by narrow lanes with no shoulders, not traffic capacity. One flat tire, and three lanes of traffic suddenly become one. Short acceleration/deceleration lanes (this isn't just NYC; NYSDOT doesn't seem to believe that freeways need them) combined with idiot drivers mean that everyone slows down while they merge (this isn't just an NYC problem; many people fail to comprehend that you're supposed to accelerate before you get on the freeway (I even remember an old lady attempting to get on the Thruway at 25 mph), but in NYC the problem is compounded by short ramps and merge lanes).
Yeah, those ramps are pretty short. I'm guessing grandfathering was involved.
A LOT of grandfathering is more like it. It's amazing how many interstates in NY pre-date the interstate system in some way, shape, or form. NYC especially; the freeway system looked more or less exactly as it does today when the interstate system was conceived (might have actually been larger).