AARoads Forum

National Boards => General Highway Talk => Traffic Control => Topic started by: MASTERNC on June 15, 2011, 10:03:05 PM

Title: Double Red Arrow
Post by: MASTERNC on June 15, 2011, 10:03:05 PM
I have family in Baltimore County and have noticed these signals around the White Marsh Mall area.  Most of these signals are for single left turn lanes (I think one is for double left turn lanes) but there are two red arrows vertically on the same face.  I've also seen them around Hunt Valley and one in Baltimore city.  To me it's kind of redundant, especially when there's only one turn lane.(http://)

When traveling to Richmond last year I also noticed the same setup on Henrico County owned roads but not where a state maintained road intersected (example being Parham Road, which had the double red arrows except at the beginning of Chippenham Pkwy and at VA 6).

Anyone else see this arrangement?  I'm surprised that is MUTCD compliant.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdesmond.yfrog.com%2FHimg735%2Fscaled.php%3Ftn%3D0%26amp%3Bserver%3D735%26amp%3Bfilename%3Didtb.jpg%26amp%3Bxsize%3D640%26amp%3Bysize%3D640&hash=153cf5fe6aab712ed8a5ba3a43e27625749b37ab)
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: Bryant5493 on June 15, 2011, 10:48:03 PM
Austell Road SW @ East-West Connector SW - Cobb County, Georgia near Austell (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=East-West+Connector,+Austell,+GA&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=30.682067,76.289063&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=E+West+Connector,+Austell,+Cobb,+Georgia+30106&ll=33.854154,-84.603385&spn=0.00098,0.002328&z=19&layer=c&cbll=33.854024,-84.603488&panoid=IAVAkmwvqGnBUfsVwOd85w&cbp=12,81.99,,0,-9.77)


Be well,

Bryant
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: FreewayDan on June 15, 2011, 11:16:11 PM
There's a lot of these double red arrows down in Texas:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5229%2F5553934981_a8a8c28531.jpg&hash=0cfd1877e1c9ab5e10f8ac2835e0701b6bce4a96) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/5553934981/)
West Panther Creek Drive (southbound) at Woodlands Parkway (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/5553934981/) by FreewayDan (http://www.flickr.com/people/22306412@N07/), on Flickr
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.static.flickr.com%2F5270%2F5553927505_94ccc15ed8.jpg&hash=09685af202f296fecc46c6b8c88573e3cbf397ad) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/5553927505/)
Northbound Gosling Road at Flintridge Drive (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/5553927505/) by FreewayDan (http://www.flickr.com/people/22306412@N07/), on Flickr

In my opinion, it is a waste to have two red arrows; I think that one red arrow should do just fine.
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: Zmapper on June 15, 2011, 11:26:23 PM
Are double red arrows only for when there are 2 turn lanes?
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: Bryant5493 on June 16, 2011, 12:12:42 AM
Quote from: Zmapper on June 15, 2011, 11:26:23 PM
Are double red arrows only for when there are 2 turn lanes?

Not necessarily. I've seen them (two double red arrows) when covering one lane; I've also seen a single left turn arrow covering one lane. Just depends on how the local/state DOT's feeling.


Be well,

Bryant
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: realjd on June 16, 2011, 08:25:09 AM
I see those most often when I'm in Texas. They seem to be a holdover from when Texas (at least the Dallas area) would use two red balls for a protected-only signal, and one if it had a permissive phase.  They would often be shielded so other traffic couldn't see them, which you still sometimes see with red arrows there.
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: roadfro on June 16, 2011, 02:29:29 PM
The MUTCD does not show a figure for double red arrows, except for the specific case of having a steady red arrow and a separate flashing red arrow (which is an application of very limited use).

However, it does show the double circular red, which many states have used for additional emphasis. I would surmise that the MUTCD wouldn't have any qualms over this similar emphasis in using two red arrows. I am more curious as to why states feel the second red arrow (or circular red) is needed, or is still needed.
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: hm insulators on June 22, 2011, 12:19:35 PM
Double red arrow--never even heard of it.
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on June 25, 2011, 12:52:15 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 15, 2011, 10:03:05 PM
When traveling to Richmond last year I also noticed the same setup on Henrico County owned roads but not where a state maintained road intersected (example being Parham Road, which had the double red arrows except at the beginning of Chippenham Pkwy and at VA 6).

Double red arrows or double red lights seems to be a Henrico County standard. We do a lot of weird things. :P
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: US71 on June 27, 2011, 05:14:32 PM
I've seen them in Texas, though double red ball seems more common

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3216%2F3059047470_12d7ebafab_z_d.jpg&hash=565ea7f2267ed3ea177be93412c070b7a7c9cf01)
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: roadman65 on November 10, 2011, 07:23:34 PM
North Carolina uses double ball red left turn signals.
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: MASTERNC on March 02, 2012, 11:00:38 PM
Found a response from a Maryland SHA official on the FHWA forums

QuoteBaltimore County and Baltimore City use a protected-only signal with dual-red
arrows. They use only one signal, even for dual-left turn lanes. The MUTCD
does not specify whether such a signal can be used, but as stated before: if
dual circular red is allowed, why not dual red arrows?
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: Alps on March 03, 2012, 02:29:18 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on March 02, 2012, 11:00:38 PM
Found a response from a Maryland SHA official on the FHWA forums

QuoteBaltimore County and Baltimore City use a protected-only signal with dual-red
arrows. They use only one signal, even for dual-left turn lanes. The MUTCD
does not specify whether such a signal can be used, but as stated before: if
dual circular red is allowed, why not dual red arrows?
Dual red arrows are ok, but you need two of each phase.
Title: Re: Double Red Arrow
Post by: abc2VE on March 03, 2012, 08:45:24 PM
double ball in petersburg VA, traffic though is fairly light

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=petersburg+va&hl=en&ll=37.201225,-77.425984&spn=0.001713,0.002642&hnear=Petersburg,+Virginia&gl=us&sqi=2&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.201286,-77.42605&panoid=NuT_z98mtRp0NZFi1JlmXA&cbp=12,203.76,,0,-6.49 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=petersburg+va&hl=en&ll=37.201225,-77.425984&spn=0.001713,0.002642&hnear=Petersburg,+Virginia&gl=us&sqi=2&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.201286,-77.42605&panoid=NuT_z98mtRp0NZFi1JlmXA&cbp=12,203.76,,0,-6.49)