Do any installations of the flashing yellow arrow for right turns exist? I know the manual references them but I can't think of any locations that have a Flashing Yellow Right Arrow.
I'm not aware of any . . . and I'd think the various transportation bodies out there are probably waiting until everyone's fully acclimated to the left-turn FYAs. We've got a very strong anti-doghouse mentality here in Oregon, though--Washington County especially--so I'd imagine it probably won't be long before that happens. Give 'em about . . . oh, five minutes and I'm sure they'll have one. :spin:
Well, the right turn version of the FYA was simply made to replace the references to 5-section doghouses and 5-section in-line displays that the MUTCD had for protected-permitted right turns. The thing is, PPRTs are very uncommon due to typical design for circular green, right turn on red and other factors... so it's unlikely that FYA right turns will see much use as the 5-section PPRT display isn't very prevalent now.
I'm struggling to come up with a valid set of circumstances for a flashing yellow right arrow. I'd expect a flashing red right arrow if anything. roadfro, can you give an example of a true need for a PPRT?
Also mentioned previously in the Flashing Yellow Left thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2983.msg66107#msg66107), but there's at least a few flashing yellow right arrows in DC.
Quote from: realjd on June 23, 2011, 07:47:10 AM
I'm struggling to come up with a valid set of circumstances for a flashing yellow right arrow. I'd expect a flashing red right arrow if anything. roadfro, can you give an example of a true need for a PPRT?
I can see it being used where there are push-button pedestrian signals or bike lane signals.
--Andy
What about so that every movement can be signalized separately? That way pedestrians or cyclists can have a conflict free interval to cross the street.
Froggie, do you have a photo or link to an intersection that uses a Flashing Yellow Right Arrow?
Quote from: realjd on June 23, 2011, 07:47:10 AM
I'm struggling to come up with a valid set of circumstances for a flashing yellow right arrow. I'd expect a flashing red right arrow if anything. roadfro, can you give an example of a true need for a PPRT?
There's some locations in Nevada that have PPRT using 5-section vertical signal heads. The few I've seen have been places with a right turn bay/lane that sees heavy volumes during peak hour. The protected phase overlaps with the adjacent protected left movement on the side street and conflicting U-turns are prohibited--so if the PPRT is for the NB RT, the protected green arrow overlaps with the WB LT arrow and WB U-turns are not allowed. Right turn on red still applies, and pedestrian movements have no special phase. So this use works in adding some additional right turn capacity during peak hours, but it's not an essential need for a PPRT.
I really can't think of another good or real valid set of circumstances that would necessitate a PPRT display (FYA not withstanding). The only possibility I can come up with would be a single-lane channelized right turn where there is either unique geometry patterns/sight lines, or there is a desire to signalize the turn due to other abnormal circumstances (high pedestrian counts, adjacent light rail track, or something of that sort).
A PPRT is one of those things that has such limited benefit and use that engineers probably question its effectiveness. In any case, the MUTCD made provisions for it, just in case anyone wants to install PPRTs.
In Ohio, protected right turns are common -- pretty much wherever there's a right-turn-only lane and the cross-street has a protected left phase. The alternative would be for the right-turn drivers to simply face a red signal during that phase, which would be less efficient as each car has to stop and figure out that the cross-street has a protected left and therefore there's no conflicting traffic. Also, the green right arrow lets drivers know that, not only do they not have to stop and look for cross-traffic, but there should also be no pedestrians to yield to. (Pedestrians don't always seem to know or care about this, and I know some drivers think a green light without a crosswalk signal gives them right-of-way over pedestrians, but I digress...)
I imagine the best use of a flashing yellow right arrow might be to emphasize that right-turning traffic still must yield to pedestrians crossing the cross street. Though, perhaps a flashing yellow ball would work better. I also happen to think a flashing yellow ball makes more sense for a non-protected left turn versus a flashing yellow arrow or flashing red ball, and perhaps better than a steady green ball if the left turn movement is much separated from the thru lanes and/or has its own signal assembly...
Quote from: Zmapper on June 23, 2011, 02:14:51 PM
Froggie, do you have a photo or link to an intersection that uses a Flashing Yellow Right Arrow?
The entrances to DuPont Circle (outer roadway) from New Hampshire Ave NW. There is no "green" condition. You have a red arrow when the pedestrian crosswalks have the "Walk" sign to stop cars when the pedestrians are crossing. When the pedestrian crosswalks have the "Don't walk", traffic from new Hampshire Avenue has a flashing right yellow arrow (supplemented by some yield signs), because the traffic in the circle has a green ball, and traffic on New Hampshire Avenue must yield to those already in the circle. Can't use a green ball, and certainly not a green arrow, because conflicting traffic has a green. Thus, the flashing yellow tells you to "use caution" (and just like the flashing left arrow, part of using caution means yielding the right of way to oncoming traffic/traffic already in the circle).
Delaware had two instances of flashing yellows. One was along Delaware 2 (Kirkwood Highway) westbound at Price's Corner/Albertson Boulevard:
(https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware001/de-002_wb_at_albertson_bl.jpg)
The other was at Library Avenue (DE 2 Business/72), East Main Street (DE 2 Business/DE 273) and Kirkwood Highway (DE 2/72) in Newark. Replaced by these mast-arms (https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware001/de-002_273_eb_072_nb_at_split.jpg) by 2004.
And since a flashing yellow arrow used because of peds came up, there is a lone flasher along DE 52 (Delaware Avenue) northbound at Adams Street (to the I-95 northbound on-ramp) in Wilmington (still there as of June 11, 2011: Ian's photo (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5318/5825914082_51706e4dd6_z.jpg)):
(https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware050/de-052_nb_at_adams_st_02.jpg)
Quote from: vtk on June 28, 2011, 10:04:42 PM
I imagine the best use of a flashing yellow right arrow might be to emphasize that right-turning traffic still must yield to pedestrians crossing the cross street. Though, perhaps a flashing yellow ball would work better. I also happen to think a flashing yellow ball makes more sense for a non-protected left turn versus a flashing yellow arrow or flashing red ball, and perhaps better than a steady green ball if the left turn movement is much separated from the thru lanes and/or has its own signal assembly...
I suppose that use of a right FYA might be appropriate, especially where the right turn has a separate lane and there is a history of ped/right-turn conflicts. But in most cases, ped traffic isn't so substantial that it would really require a right FYA, especially in a PPRT scenario.
As to the flashing circular yellow, the whole reason to have the arrow is to differentiate between turning movements and general through traffic. Using a yellow ball instead of a left or right arrow for the permitted movement, especially when the through traffic has a red or green, will give conflicting messages to drivers.
Quote from: mtantillo on June 28, 2011, 11:47:35 PM
The entrances to DuPont Circle (outer roadway) from New Hampshire Ave NW. There is no "green" condition. You have a red arrow when the pedestrian crosswalks have the "Walk" sign to stop cars when the pedestrians are crossing. When the pedestrian crosswalks have the "Don't walk", traffic from new Hampshire Avenue has a flashing right yellow arrow (supplemented by some yield signs), because the traffic in the circle has a green ball, and traffic on New Hampshire Avenue must yield to those already in the circle. Can't use a green ball, and certainly not a green arrow, because conflicting traffic has a green. Thus, the flashing yellow tells you to "use caution" (and just like the flashing left arrow, part of using caution means yielding the right of way to oncoming traffic/traffic already in the circle).
That seems like a plausible use for a right-turn FYA, assuming the entry link is a single-lane entry yield condition.
Quote from: Alex on June 29, 2011, 12:13:02 AM
Delaware had two instances of flashing yellows. One was along Delaware 2 (Kirkwood Highway) westbound at Price's Corner/Albertson Boulevard:
[snipped picture]
This appears to be permitted only, so with the FYA over the lane it makes sense in a strict MUTCD interpretation. That could easily just be a green ball.
Quote from: vtk on June 28, 2011, 10:04:42 PM
In Ohio, protected right turns are common -- pretty much wherever there's a right-turn-only lane and the cross-street has a protected left phase. The alternative would be for the right-turn drivers to simply face a red signal during that phase, which would be less efficient as each car has to stop and figure out that the cross-street has a protected left and therefore there's no conflicting traffic. Also, the green right arrow lets drivers know that, not only do they not have to stop and look for cross-traffic, but there should also be no pedestrians to yield to. (Pedestrians don't always seem to know or care about this, and I know some drivers think a green light without a crosswalk signal gives them right-of-way over pedestrians, but I digress...)
That works well in Ohio because of the general ban on U-turns. I could imagine another case for the FYA would be in places where U-turns *are* allowed (in Ohio) the cross traffic currently has a 'no turn on red' sign.
Quote from: roadfro on June 29, 2011, 03:25:10 AM
Quote from: vtk on June 28, 2011, 10:04:42 PM
I imagine the best use of a flashing yellow right arrow might be to emphasize that right-turning traffic still must yield to pedestrians crossing the cross street.
I suppose that use of a right FYA might be appropriate, especially where the right turn has a separate lane and there is a history of ped/right-turn conflicts. But in most cases, ped traffic isn't so substantial that it would really require a right FYA, especially in a PPRT scenario.
Right: in most cases, pedestrian traffic isn't substantial. That's exactly why it makes some sense to emphasize it at intersections where pedestrian traffic
is substantial.
Quote from: roadfro on June 29, 2011, 03:25:10 AMAs to the flashing circular yellow, the whole reason to have the arrow is to differentiate between turning movements and general through traffic. Using a yellow ball instead of a left or right arrow for the permitted movement, especially when the through traffic has a red or green, will give conflicting messages to drivers.
That makes sense. A similar thought occurred to me last night, actually, but then I thought, why not standardize on arrows for through movements as well? I suppose there could be good arguments on either side of that one.
Quote from: 6a on June 29, 2011, 04:42:07 PM
Quote from: vtk on June 28, 2011, 10:04:42 PM
In Ohio, protected right turns are common -- pretty much wherever there's a right-turn-only lane and the cross-street has a protected left phase. The alternative would be for the right-turn drivers to simply face a red signal during that phase, which would be less efficient as each car has to stop and figure out that the cross-street has a protected left and therefore there's no conflicting traffic. Also, the green right arrow lets drivers know that, not only do they not have to stop and look for cross-traffic, but there should also be no pedestrians to yield to.
That works well in Ohio because of the general ban on U-turns. I could imagine another case for the FYA would be in places where U-turns *are* allowed (in Ohio) the cross traffic currently has a 'no turn on red' sign.
You're right, the rarity of U-turns here does make it easy to implement protected right turn phases. (Is it really a statewide ban? I actually thought it was a Columbus-specific thing, given many intersections near freeway interchanges signed "No U Turn Citywide".) U-turns are generally unnecessary on most roads in Ohio, however. Divided highways that have driveway access seem to always provide median crossovers for every driveway, and when a driveway truly is right-in-right-out only, that's almost never the only access to that property. (This sometimes leads to the annoying situation where your destination is on the left just before a significant crossroad, and your only way in is to turn left at the signal, then go all the way to the far corner of the place's parking lot before you can legally turn left into it.)
Anyway, I thought of another pretty good situation to use flashing yellow right arrow: if there's ever a phase where through traffic has the green, but right turns are not permitted. Then a flashing yellow arrow would probably be better than a green ball for "permissive" right turns that still must yield to pedestrians, and/or steady green arrow for protected right turns. mtantillo's DuPont Circle example fits this pattern, though I'm not sure I'd understand that I have to yield to oncoming left-turn traffic if I'm turning right on a flashing yellow arrow unless there's some signage to explain that specific conflict.
Here there are signs saying 'U-turn yield to right turn'. I don't know if this is state law, but it makes sense.
Quote from: NE2 on June 29, 2011, 05:42:18 PM
Here there are signs saying 'U-turn yield to right turn'. I don't know if this is state law, but it makes sense.
that does make sense, because, in general, the right turn would be the one which had to yield if it had red.
I do not know if I could see the right-turn's protected directional arrow as I was making the U-turn, as sometimes the angles of the traffic lights would prevent it.
A rather old thread, but I know the city of New York has a lot of them currently in use. Motorists, of course, are required to yield to pedestrians when they are allowed to cross.
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on February 16, 2015, 09:27:47 AM
A rather old thread, but I know the city of New York has a lot of them currently in use. Motorists, of course, are required to yield to pedestrians when they are allowed to cross.
Flashing yellow arrow right-turn signals . . . where?
Quote from: Zmapper on February 16, 2015, 11:00:38 AM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on February 16, 2015, 09:27:47 AM
A rather old thread, but I know the city of New York has a lot of them currently in use. Motorists, of course, are required to yield to pedestrians when they are allowed to cross.
Flashing yellow arrow right-turn signals . . . where?
I said they are in the
city of New York; however, I suppose I should be more specific.
Here are some intersections that I know off the top of my head...
Brooklyn, N.Y.
4th and Atlantic Avenues.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.684542,-73.978713,3a,37.5y,125.4h,85.67t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1scoCQti-10pRlizgTrFv3-Q!2e0!5s20130801T000000
Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.684207,-73.977839,3a,15y,124.84h,89.26t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sGoC9eUW7pwNRP-WQ0Lw4XQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000
Amity and Court Streets.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.688421,-73.993225,3a,37.5y,97.59h,93.73t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sWzOwb5Q7dwuLGbqhQV1SGw!2e0!5s20130101T000000
Manhattan, N.Y.
Delancey St. and Bowery. These are four-section traffic signals, so they both serve as protected and flashing right turn signals. The green and amber (steady) arrows are tied to the protected left turn movement for one direction of the Bowery.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.720307,-73.993903,3a,75y,353.66h,87.83t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1soDkMBxpG2QbInoEUsT9Q1w!2e0!5s20140901T000000
Staten Island, N.Y.
A Google image is currently not available, but the new setup could be found at Lily Pond Av. and the entrance ramp for the Verrazano Narrows Br.
That's incredibly interesting - thanks for sharing! :nod:
Quote from: Alex on June 29, 2011, 12:13:02 AM
Delaware had two instances of flashing yellows. One was along Delaware 2 (Kirkwood Highway) westbound at Price's Corner/Albertson Boulevard:
(https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware001/de-002_wb_at_albertson_bl.jpg)
The other was at Library Avenue (DE 2 Business/72), East Main Street (DE 2 Business/DE 273) and Kirkwood Highway (DE 2/72) in Newark. Replaced by these mast-arms (https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware001/de-002_273_eb_072_nb_at_split.jpg) by 2004.
And since a flashing yellow arrow used because of peds came up, there is a lone flasher along DE 52 (Delaware Avenue) northbound at Adams Street (to the I-95 northbound on-ramp) in Wilmington (still there as of June 11, 2011: Ian's photo (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5318/5825914082_51706e4dd6_z.jpg)):
(https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware050/de-052_nb_at_adams_st_02.jpg)
There was a set of flashing yellow rights for the 273 east offramp at the intersection with 4 and Salem Church.
Here is one set of them here in the Salt Lake Valley. It is at State and 7720 S. The far 2 right heads are them.
https://www.google.com/maps?q=7720+S+State+St,+Midvale,+UT&hl=en&ll=40.610947,-111.891122&spn=0.002551,0.008256&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=66.574603,135.263672&oq=7720+S+Sta&t=h&hnear=7720+S+State+St,+Midvale,+Utah+84047-3219&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.610946,-111.891124&panoid=8HSDMummdzwVcYTWHQU7EQ&cbp=11,80.9,,0,-0.12
As someone posted 4 years ago, there are a few in DC. I think most, if not all, of them are in one of the numerous roundabouts/rotaries.
Here's one at the intersection of Dupont Circle and New Hampshire Avenue:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.908957,-77.044037,3a,30.3y,51.23h,87.06t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s6EajKfUm9wvc_xXqWoFDcA!2e0
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1101.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg431%2Fwisvishr0%2FScreen%2520Shot%25202015-03-08%2520at%252010.17.59%2520PM.png&hash=bcbfe9dc6903b9a604230db24acf4ac048b0ccc5) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/wisvishr0/media/Screen%20Shot%202015-03-08%20at%2010.17.59%20PM.png.html)
I can't for the life of me figure out what it does. When I first drove up to it, I assumed you had to yield to other traffic in the circle (because a flashing left arrow means yield). But I waited, and apparently the cars in the circle had a red light, which meant I had the right of way. Maybe you're supposed to yield to pedestrians? But they have their own signal!
I'm pretty sure these were built before flashing left arrows existed, and use the same rules a flashing orb does -- be cautious, but you have the right of way over everyone except pedestrians. That's part of the reason why I don't like flashing left arrows; they're not consistent with flashing yellow orbs. But I guess that's a discussion for the other forum.
If I came up to that intersection in Delaware up above before I read this thread, I'd wait to yield to all other traffic, including left-turning traffic in front of me from across the street, because I thought a flashing yellow arrow meant yield to everyone!
I see right arrows and am wondering where left arrows came from.
Quote from: kj3400 on March 08, 2015, 10:29:22 PM
I see right arrows and am wondering where left arrows came from.
I'll tell you when you're older.
Quote from: NE2 on March 08, 2015, 10:39:27 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on March 08, 2015, 10:29:22 PM
I see right arrows and am wondering where left arrows came from.
I'll tell you when you're older.
Thanks dad.
Quote from: kj3400 on March 08, 2015, 10:51:14 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 08, 2015, 10:39:27 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on March 08, 2015, 10:29:22 PM
I see right arrows and am wondering where left arrows came from.
I'll tell you when you're older.
Thanks dad.
To be fair, your original question, as such, doesn't make sense (not to me, at least).
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2015, 12:55:54 AM
Quote from: kj3400 on March 08, 2015, 10:51:14 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 08, 2015, 10:39:27 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on March 08, 2015, 10:29:22 PM
I see right arrows and am wondering where left arrows came from.
I'll tell you when you're older.
Thanks dad.
To be fair, your original question, as such, doesn't make sense (not to me, at least).
He was referring to left flashing yellows, when the pic had right flashing arrows, and in my mind I thought he had slipped up. But looking back on it I think I see that he was comparing those arrows to left arrows, but realizing they're not exactly comparable.
I saw a video of a flashing yellow arrow right-turn on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MawQRVvocjE
We have a pair of them here in Huntsville now:
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8700/16895769707_41f2f2637b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rK2eGg)Siemens FYA signals (https://flic.kr/p/rK2eGg) by freebrickproductions (https://www.flickr.com/people/96431468@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7631/17103155535_622464216d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/s4m9gZ)Siemens FYA signals (https://flic.kr/p/s4m9gZ) by freebrickproductions (https://www.flickr.com/people/96431468@N06/), on Flickr
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on February 16, 2015, 09:46:01 PM
Quote from: Zmapper on February 16, 2015, 11:00:38 AM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on February 16, 2015, 09:27:47 AM
A rather old thread, but I know the city of New York has a lot of them currently in use. Motorists, of course, are required to yield to pedestrians when they are allowed to cross.
Flashing yellow arrow right-turn signals . . . where?
I said they are in the city of New York; however, I suppose I should be more specific.
Here are some intersections that I know off the top of my head...
Brooklyn, N.Y.
4th and Atlantic Avenues.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.684542,-73.978713,3a,37.5y,125.4h,85.67t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1scoCQti-10pRlizgTrFv3-Q!2e0!5s20130801T000000
Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.684207,-73.977839,3a,15y,124.84h,89.26t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sGoC9eUW7pwNRP-WQ0Lw4XQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000
Amity and Court Streets.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.688421,-73.993225,3a,37.5y,97.59h,93.73t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sWzOwb5Q7dwuLGbqhQV1SGw!2e0!5s20130101T000000
Manhattan, N.Y.
Delancey St. and Bowery. These are four-section traffic signals, so they both serve as protected and flashing right turn signals. The green and amber (steady) arrows are tied to the protected left turn movement for one direction of the Bowery.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.720307,-73.993903,3a,75y,353.66h,87.83t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1soDkMBxpG2QbInoEUsT9Q1w!2e0!5s20140901T000000
Staten Island, N.Y.
A Google image is currently not available, but the new setup could be found at Lily Pond Av. and the entrance ramp for the Verrazano Narrows Br.
Another one is at 10th Ave. and 19th St. in Manhattan: https://goo.gl/maps/9jfRCB593u42
I remember you saying that motorists already have to yield to peds on green lights, so why would the yellow arrow be necessary? While I agree, I can't think of another arrow signal that would indicate that turns can be made in one direction, without stopping, but still requiring the yield to pedestrians. A green arrow
should mean this*, but doesn't; where green arrows are used elsewhere in NYC, they coincide with Don't Walk indications for pedestrians.
*I explain why in the general Flashing Left Arrows thread.
Quote from: empirestate on September 22, 2015, 04:08:25 PM
<snip>
I remember you saying that motorists already have to yield to peds on green lights, so why would the yellow arrow be necessary? While I agree, I can't think of another arrow signal that would indicate that turns can be made in one direction, without stopping, but still requiring the yield to pedestrians. A green arrow should mean this*, but doesn't; where green arrows are used elsewhere in NYC, they coincide with Don't Walk indications for pedestrians.
*I explain why in the general Flashing Left Arrows thread.
The yellow right arrow simply instructs right-turning traffic what to do while other signals facing the same side of the intersection can independently tell traffic moving in other directions (through and left) to do something different. Having only a circular green means that the same signal tells through and right-turning traffic that they can go at the same time and can't separately coordinate their movements. The flashing right arrow (or even a signal that shows a protected right turn indication) has the ability of controlling just the right turning movement while simultaneously instructing the traffic going other directions to do something different.
I swear I read somewhere that the MUTCD (or some other document) mandated the use of directional arrow signals over dedicated turn lanes. In that case, you'd have to use a flashing right arrow over a right turn only lane to tell right turning traffic they are permitted to turn but must yield to pedestrians. You couldn't use a circular signal over a dedicated turn lane because, well, it's a dedicated turn lane and needs arrows. At least I thought this was a requirement. I was disappointed when Mississippi built a new intersection and elected not to use the flashing arrow, but then again, things tend to take longer to get to that part of the country I've found.
^ With the 2009 MUTCD, a dedicated turn-only lane that has separate signal control from adjacent lanes must use an all-arrow display. The key is *separate* signal control. If you had a right turn lane that doesn't have any special turn phasing (i.e. it only is green at the same time as adjacent thru signal), it could still use a circular green.
Quote from: Ace10 on September 22, 2015, 04:36:25 PM
I swear I read somewhere that the MUTCD (or some other document) mandated the use of directional arrow signals over dedicated turn lanes.
That would mean that every intersection with a left turn lane and a right turn lane would need its own traffic lights...and due to safety reasons it would need two traffic lights.
And we're talking almost every intersection.
Clearly that's not the case, nor the intent of the above.
Quote from: roadfro on September 24, 2015, 07:11:39 AM
^ With the 2009 MUTCD, a dedicated turn-only lane that has separate signal control from adjacent lanes must use an all-arrow display. The key is *separate* signal control. If you had a right turn lane that doesn't have any special turn phasing (i.e. it only is green at the same time as adjacent thru signal), it could still use a circular green.
This is what's odd about the flashing signals in my Manhattan example above. In that case, the right turn is the only possible movement, and arrow signals are used presumably to emphasize this fact. Now, if straight were the only possible movement, we'd naturally expect some kind of green indication to be used, either a circle or upward-pointing arrow. A green circular indication already carries the connotation of "yield to pedestrians", even though, in the straight-only scenario, there's no possible pedestrian conflict (other than the hordes of texting zombies that invariably cross Manhattan streets on any signal indication as long as they're not being actively run over).
But when you change the only available movement to be a right turn, now a green arrow indication doesn't work, because the green arrow
doesn't indicate "yield to pedestrians". Rather, it suggests you're clear and protected for that right turn movement. So we choose flashing yellow, which for some reason
does mean "yield to pedestrians", even when it's arrow-shaped, unlike green, which only means that when it
isn't arrow-shaped. :confused:
In Madison, WI there are flashing right turn arrows along US 151 (Washington St) by the East Towne Mall. The newly reconstructed I-41/Oneida St Interchange in Ashwaubenon, WI has dual right turn lanes from West Oneida St to I-41 north, and both lanes have ground mounted signal with flashing right turn arrows. On a side note, I've never seen dual signalized right turn lanes onto an on ramp before, that's new to me. Seen many of them exiting off the freeway.
Quote from: peterj920 on September 24, 2015, 06:46:05 PM
In Madison, WI there are flashing right turn arrows along US 151 (Washington St) by the East Towne Mall. The newly reconstructed I-41/Oneida St Interchange in Ashwaubenon, WI has dual right turn lanes from West Oneida St to I-41 north, and both lanes have ground mounted signal with flashing right turn arrows. On a side note, I've never seen dual signalized right turn lanes onto an on ramp before, that's new to me. Seen many of them exiting off the freeway.
Do you know if they flash when oncoming traffic has a protected left onto the ramp? When there's a pedestrian crossing, do they go red? Are they ever solid green? Does the oncoming left turn (towards I-41 North) have a permissive phase? (I know Wisconsin has some dual permissive lefts).
Sorry for the loads of questions, I just really want to know. I've always advocated for signalized slip lanes with FYAs, so this is pretty cool.
I've read through this thread, and I can't come up with a situation where a flashing yellow right turn arrow is plausible to substitute for a solid green right turn arrow. What am I missing?
Quote from: JCinSummerfield on September 25, 2015, 01:12:40 PM
I've read through this thread, and I can't come up with a situation where a flashing yellow right turn arrow is plausible to substitute for a solid green right turn arrow. What am I missing?
Pedestrians and conflicting traffic.
Quote from: kj3400 on September 25, 2015, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: JCinSummerfield on September 25, 2015, 01:12:40 PM
I've read through this thread, and I can't come up with a situation where a flashing yellow right turn arrow is plausible to substitute for a solid green right turn arrow. What am I missing?
Pedestrians and conflicting traffic.
And a slip lane with a red signal is basically a stop sign, and a slip lane with a stop sign is ridiculous.
Quote from: kj3400 on September 25, 2015, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: JCinSummerfield on September 25, 2015, 01:12:40 PM
I've read through this thread, and I can't come up with a situation where a flashing yellow right turn arrow is plausible to substitute for a solid green right turn arrow. What am I missing?
Pedestrians and conflicting traffic.
Yeah. In the NYC examples, the flashing yellow coincides with a "walk" indication for pedestrians. A green arrow would necessitate a "don't walk".
iPhone
Quote from: jakeroot on September 24, 2015, 08:40:24 PM
Quote from: peterj920 on September 24, 2015, 06:46:05 PM
In Madison, WI there are flashing right turn arrows along US 151 (Washington St) by the East Towne Mall. The newly reconstructed I-41/Oneida St Interchange in Ashwaubenon, WI has dual right turn lanes from West Oneida St to I-41 north, and both lanes have ground mounted signal with flashing right turn arrows. On a side note, I've never seen dual signalized right turn lanes onto an on ramp before, that's new to me. Seen many of them exiting off the freeway.
Do you know if they flash when oncoming traffic has a protected left onto the ramp? When there's a pedestrian crossing, do they go red? Are they ever solid green? Does the oncoming left turn (towards I-41 North) have a permissive phase? (I know Wisconsin has some dual permissive lefts).
Sorry for the loads of questions, I just really want to know. I've always advocated for signalized slip lanes with FYAs, so this is pretty cool.
I went to the signal today in daylight, and observed the signal sequence. The light is solid red when oncoming traffic has a green arrow. The light is solid green when traffic traveling straight has a green light as well. There is a yellow right flashing arrow when traffic coming from I-41 North off ramp has a green light. Makes sense to have the flashing yellow for that sequence because it's pretty rare that someone is going to go straight on an off ramp back onto the freeway. Pedestrian signals are not activated yet, but they're going to be push button activated and it will rarely be used since pedestrians very rarely walk in the area.
Quote from: peterj920 on September 25, 2015, 08:16:24 PM
I went to the signal today in daylight, and observed the signal sequence. The light is solid red when oncoming traffic has a green arrow. The light is solid green when traffic traveling straight has a green light as well. There is a yellow right flashing arrow when traffic coming from I-41 North off ramp has a green light. Makes sense to have the flashing yellow for that sequence because it's pretty rare that someone is going to go straight on an off ramp back onto the freeway. Pedestrian signals are not activated yet, but they're going to be push button activated and it will rarely be used since pedestrians very rarely walk in the area.
See, it makes sense to me to have a flashing yellow arrow where there's an activated pedestrian crossing. When the pedestrian pushes the button, the arrow goes solid red. (With No Turn On Red signage, if it's one of those places that interprets red arrows that way.)
I would think it would be a flashing yellow if a pedestrian would be crossing. At a standard signalized intersection, the light is normally green, and traffic that is turning right is supposed to yield to pedestrians. If I ever see a pedestrian there, I can find out what the signal will show. Before the interchange was reconstructed, there weren't any sidewalks at all. Pedestrian access is added after reconstruction, but it will still be very rare that a pedestrian will need to cross. In the Green Bay area, sidewalks and bike lanes have been aggressively added all over the metro area. There's a very well constructed bike/pedestrian path that is also independently lit from the 4 lane road it parallels. I haven't seen anyone use that path yet, along with many of the other newly constructed sidewalks and bike paths along major roads. People do bike and walk in the area, the Fox River and East River Trails are very busy and used a lot. Since they're also along rivers, there are very few stops along those trails as well, and the bridges on the cross streets cross over the trail as well. People in the area would much rather walk and bike along a scenic path with few stops than along a busy road.
There are some flashing yellow arrow right turn signals in the city of Tucson. In almost every case, the flashing yellow arrow replaced what had been a solid green arrow.
Quote from: peterj920 on September 25, 2015, 10:38:49 PM
I would think it would be a flashing yellow if a pedestrian would be crossing. At a standard signalized intersection, the light is normally green, and traffic that is turning right is supposed to yield to pedestrians. If I ever see a pedestrian there, I can find out what the signal will show. Before the interchange was reconstructed, there weren't any sidewalks at all. Pedestrian access is added after reconstruction, but it will still be very rare that a pedestrian will need to cross.
To me, the fact that pedestrians are so rare (and the fact that their signal is button-activated) is all the more reason the arrow should turn red. If you think about an automatic pedestrian signal, flashing yellow makes sense, because even though the ped signal says "walk", that doesn't necessarily mean there's a pedestrian there; it just happens to be that point in the signal's cycle. But with an activated signal, if the signal says "walk" it's because somebody showed up and pushed the button, so there's
definitely a pedestrian there; and if there's definitely a pedestrian there then you definitely need to stop. So, you need a red signal of some kind, because the flashing yellow doesn't require a stop.
Another reason would be simply to display an obvious change in circumstances. In this case, the flashing yellow is displayed when the only conflicting traffic is that rare car coming from the left and crossing back onto the freeway, and the driver facing that arrow will become accustomed to that. If the ped signal activation doesn't result in anything different being displayed for the driver, the driver has no indication that anything different has happened that he needs to look out for.
However, perhaps solid red isn't necessarily right; perhaps flashing red would be OK, so that traffic could proceed after the lone pedestrian has cleared, without having to wait for the full cycle to finish. Or if we decide that solid red arrows allow for this, we could use the solid arrow, permitting the motorist to make a right on red after the pedestrian is clear.
I posted this on antother thread a few months ago. It's relevant to the topic here:
Quote from: mrsman on July 08, 2015, 09:12:04 PM
http://la.streetsblog.org/2015/07/06/dangerous-intersection-of-venice-and-robertson-gets-a-flashing-yellow-signal/
Quote
Last November, David Lindley was walking across the street at the five point intersection of Venice and South Robertson Boulevard when he was struck and killed. Lindley, an autistic teen who attended nearby Hamilton High School, was mourned by friends and family who vowed to see the intersection fixed.
...
Over six months after Lindley's tragic death, LADOT recently unveiled its answer to the safety issues created by what one Hamilton High School student described as a "busy, confusing and dangerous" intersection, a flashing yellow arrow warning drivers to be aware of pedestrians. This is the first time the City of Los Angeles has used this traffic control device, but they are common in other parts of the country. Motorists have shown greater likelihood to yield during a flashing yellow arrow than a red one.
NYSDOT installed a couple on US 20/NY 5 in Geneva at some point. There are 2 heading WB, with one at this intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8700619,-76.9785973,3a,75y,236.99h,88.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9ip1Efti85lt-VWdL26voQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and the other at the next intersection. Both were installed after GSV was last through there.
Quote from: cl94 on September 27, 2015, 08:58:51 PM
NYSDOT installed a couple on US 20/NY 5 in Geneva at some point ... Both were installed after GSV was last through there.
They went in sometime in July or August. The westbound right turn lanes at Lake and at Castle are 3-section R-Y-FYA. They can't use green arrows because oncoming traffic has FYA left turns now.
GSV of NY 14 is from earlier this summer. You can see the 4-section signal that replaced the doghouse on 5&20 if you look east on Castle St.