http://www.state.wv.us/wvsca/docs/spring11/35742.pdf (http://www.state.wv.us/wvsca/docs/spring11/35742.pdf)
Short version is that the state had a unique business plan for the "King Coal Highway" (AKA US 52 from Williamson to Bluefield, AKA the so-called future I-73/74). Much of the northern section passes through coal rich areas amenable to surface mining. State's plan was that the coal company, which ownes the land, would mine the coal and leave behind a road bed upon which the state would consruct the road. Esentually the state reduces its land acquisition costs and grading costs to near zero, and the coal company is freed of the normal requirement to restore the land to its "original contours". Win-win.
Execpt for traditonal highway construction companies and unions. Unions sued. Trial court ruled for the state, on the idea that it really could not help them, since the state does not have the money to acquire the property, do the grading, and build the road. So if it ruled for the union or not the numer of union employees getting jobs would be the same, which is to say zero.
State Supreme Court reversed.
Project probably will now never be built, at least in our lifetimes.
A few more facts from the PDF:
In the 'Red Jacket section', the state and feds are helping to pay for the work. State and federal laws say that such projects must be open to public bids and include a 'prevailing wage' clause in the contract, but in fact a coal company subsidiary is doing the work.
The ruling rested on whether the unions had standing to sue on behalf of their members. The state court's ruling that they didn't was reversed and the matter was remanded to lower courts.
"build a highway inexpensively? over my dead body!"
crabs-in-pot mentality.
well, from a signage perspective, we don't get the ignominy of the route signed 73/74 ... but from the perspective of actually building needed roads - what a price to pay!
(also: "King Coal"? I can't decide what's worse - the 73/74 signage violating just about every numbering rule in AASHO's grid, or that name. I'm imagining some terrifying cartoon character in a set of corporate propaganda. I hope to goodness the character is a Merry Old "Soal", or else we're looking at something truly sinister.)
Just one more reason why stuff costs so much -- these asinine "prevailing wage" requirements that are based on union scale. If they'd let these projects be built by people who are willing to work at a rate of pay that an employer is willing to pay, the cost to taxpayers would probably be much cheaper.
Hopefully WV can find grounds for appeal to the feds.
Damn union workers, taking all summer off and going downhill both ways.
As much as I hate the politics of it, but its not union's fault. Rather, its the fault of the politicians on why they are not making our infrastructure an investment. What a shame. :thumbdown:
Quote from: hbelkins on June 24, 2011, 07:43:54 PM
Just one more reason why stuff costs so much -- these asinine "prevailing wage" requirements that are based on union scale. If they'd let these projects be built by people who are willing to work at a rate of pay that an employer is willing to pay, the cost to taxpayers would probably be much cheaper.
Hopefully WV can find grounds for appeal to the feds.
So you're willing to take a paycut with the state to pennies on the dollar as the prevailing wage for telling people what they should already know?
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on June 24, 2011, 11:41:55 PM
So you're willing to take a paycut with the state to pennies on the dollar as the prevailing wage for telling people what they should already know?
That doesn't make any sense.
Prevailing wage requirements fly in the face of the logic of low-bid contracts.
King Coal - Don't know where that one came from either. The three highway almost-fictional projects in southern WV are the "King Coal" (southern US 52), "Tolsia" (northern US 52), and "Coalfields Expressway" (US 121, a new number, running from Beckley to Grundy, VA). If any are ever actually built, I suspect people will just call them by number, like most roads.
Prevailing wage - At least in WV, prevailing wage is a totally rigged system. The figure is ginned up and is far higher than what private industry pays for similar work.
That IS a shame. So basically nothing's going to get built beyond Bluefield?
At any rate, it wouldn't be signed as Interstate 73 or Interstate 74. It's not being designed nor constructed to interstate standards - only West Virginia corridor standards.
http://bdtonline.com/local/x250778790/Officials-12-mile-section-of-King-Coal-Highway-completed
In this story there is discussion of more coal company construction of additional segments of this route.
Wonder how much of this route is now a true "thru" route from Williamson to Gilbert that can be easily accessed from existing US 52?
^ Here is imagery from Google Maps from 2009 that shows some of it under construction in the stretch that was opened recently: http://g.co/maps/sy7se
Quote from: hbelkins on October 20, 2011, 10:38:20 AM
Wonder how much of this route is now a true "thru" route from Williamson to Gilbert that can be easily accessed from existing US 52?
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.64406&lon=-82.08093&zoom=15&layers=M is the section that they're talking about, but I don't know exactly where it ends or how it can be accessed.
I drove the road in question today. Quite an experience.
As one travels south on US 52, one turns onto WV 65 SOUTH towards Matewan. After about a half mile one comes to a rerouted concrete WV 65 up the mountain. After about a mile, one reaches the JCT with this new road. (The concrete WV 65 reroute continue on down the other side of the mountain for about another half mile). One turns left onto what will be the northbound lanes of the eventual four lane. It consists of what would be the right hand curb, the two lanes, and what would be the median curb (it appears that the road, when finished, will have the kind of raised concrete median common in eastern Kentucky, rather than a grass median or "Jersey barrier". The only stripeing is a double yellow line in the middle, the edges are not striped. The road is very high, unusual in WV, one is above the average terrain and one can see for miles and miles. The road is darn near flat and darn near straight.
Road is concrete. There is no gravel berm, if one got off the edge of the curb one either side, one would certainly damage the car beyond use. Orange pylons line the road on both sides. There are no guardrails. After about 3/4 of a mile one comes to the new Mingo Central High School. After that there is nothing at all for several miles. The road has no signage at all, other than a five-sided school zone sign.
The road is not signed as US 52, or as anything at all. Nor are there any permanent signs at all, just orange 35 MPH SL signs and orange signs warning of "no curb". The bed for the southbound lanes is there, just rocks. The whole place is still an active strip mine, more or less. The only traffic was DOH trucks and the large tractor-trailer type coal trucks. At the south end, one is presented with several paved roads built by the coal companies and a single sign reading "To US 52" which takes you down the mountain for about 3 miles through a strip mile until you come out on US 52 at the base of Horsepen Mountian. Again there is no signage if one was heading north on US 52 directing you to go up that hollow. If one was not looking for the road, you would drive right by and never notice.
At this point, it is more a thing for road geeks and such, the travel time up the hollow at the south end is greater than just taking US 52 as is, unless one was going to the high school. Which is probably why it is currently unsigned. Much more construction/strip mining is going on south of the road's current end, pretty much all the way to Gilbert. At some point the road will probably reach a more natural JCT with the "old" 52 and then be signed.
When finished, it will be quite scenic. Very high about avearge terrain, and beautiful seams of coal exposed.
Here's my video of my drive along this route.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150429355660280
My photos from my drive on Oct. 22:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150424035951469.416505.275641381468&type=3
The impression I got from the Bluefield newspaper story indicated that the connector to WV 44 (which appeared to be mislabeled in that story) would be open in just a few short weeks, but i don't realistically think they will get it done before bad weather sets in this winter.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 31, 2011, 06:25:05 PM
My photos from my drive on Oct. 22:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150424035951469.416505.275641381468&type=3
I'm a little confused - are the US 52/WV 65 signs at the intersection of the King Coal and WV 65?
Yes. That assembly is heading northbound on the new road. It appears that at some point, US 52 will be routed onto WV 65 to rejoin the old route at Taylorville once the new route is signed as US 52 on the southern end.
Apparently the new WV 44 connector is now open. Anyone know if US 52 has been moved?
Not sure - may check it out this coming weekend.
Check out the paving train: http://goo.gl/maps/SJ8l9
^ Gotta love that zero slump concrete!
Zero slump concrete?
Quote from: Sherman Cahal on August 15, 2012, 10:20:43 AM
Zero slump concrete?
That's the type of concrete that is used in this scenario. The concrete is stiff and doesn't have much water in it (low slump), so it can set up without the need for formwork. It is just extruded through the paver and it can retain its shape after. Since there is no need for the concrete to be consolidated after placement, there is no need to have a high slump.
On the other hand, if you have a high slump concrete, it is more runny because it has more water or it has an admixture that reduces the amount of water required to achieve a given slump. The higher the slump, the more workable the concrete is after placement.
Quote from: NE2 on June 25, 2012, 02:16:42 AM
Apparently the new WV 44 connector is now open. Anyone know if US 52 has been moved?
Drove up there yesterday since I had a free day and was home alone and needed something to do.
A lot has changed since I drove the route last fall. The shoulders along the new US 52 route have been built up, there are delineators along the road, and the 35 mph speed limit has been replaced with a 55 mph limit. Doesn't look like they will be building the parallel (southbound) lanes anytime soon, and they are being used by ATV riders.
A lot of empty signposts have been installed and are ready for signage.
There are already two major cracks in the concrete where the fill has settled. One has been patched with asphalt, the other has not.
As for WV 44, it is open and it also has a major settled spot near the new US 52 intersection. It is signed as both WV 44 and US 52, and it appears from signage that WV 44 will not end at US 52, but at the county road that runs adjacent to the new route. There are still a lot of empty signposts on that route, waiting for signs.
The old intersection of WV 44 has been realigned slightly here.
Signage on old US 52 does not yet guide US 52 traffic to the new route at either WV 44 or WV 65. However, there was more traffic on the route than when I drove it last October.
Work continues on the King Coal beyond the WV 44 connector. A crew was active yesterday.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 26, 2012, 09:23:54 PM
Quote from: NE2 on June 25, 2012, 02:16:42 AM
Apparently the new WV 44 connector is now open. Anyone know if US 52 has been moved?
Drove up there yesterday since I had a free day and was home alone and needed something to do.
A lot has changed since I drove the route last fall. The shoulders along the new US 52 route have been built up, there are delineators along the road, and the 35 mph speed limit has been replaced with a 55 mph limit. Doesn't look like they will be building the parallel (southbound) lanes anytime soon, and they are being used by ATV riders.
A lot of empty signposts have been installed and are ready for signage.
There are already two major cracks in the concrete where the fill has settled. One has been patched with asphalt, the other has not.
As for WV 44, it is open and it also has a major settled spot near the new US 52 intersection. It is signed as both WV 44 and US 52, and it appears from signage that WV 44 will not end at US 52, but at the county road that runs adjacent to the new route. There are still a lot of empty signposts on that route, waiting for signs.
The old intersection of WV 44 has been realigned slightly here.
Signage on old US 52 does not yet guide US 52 traffic to the new route at either WV 44 or WV 65. However, there was more traffic on the route than when I drove it last October.
Work continues on the King Coal beyond the WV 44 connector. A crew was active yesterday.
At least there is progress somewhere.
The settling issue is a problem for West Virginia, it seems. Have you been on the new US 35 closer towards Point Pleasant? One contract called for an asphalt pavement, and I am not for sure if the whole compaction and fill was done properly because it's one of the roughest roads I've been on in years. There was an excessive amount of humps and dips that made driving over 70 MPH uncomfortable. The concrete segment after that (going south) was much smoother and had only a few small dips, but nothing out of the ordinary.
If the concrete segment experiences the same settling issues as the asphalt section, then the concrete portion will be crack city in a few years.
Quote from: codyg1985 on October 30, 2012, 12:17:19 PM
If the concrete segment experiences the same settling issues as the asphalt section, then the concrete portion will be crack city in a few years.
Four-wheel-drive owners should have fun with this! :-D
The War On Coal causes another setback:
http://dailymail.com/Opinion/Editorials/201211010184 (http://dailymail.com/Opinion/Editorials/201211010184)
QuoteCONSOL Energy said it intends to idle its Miller Creek surface operations near Naugatuck and lay off 145 employees in Mingo County next month because it has been unable to obtain all the needed permits from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
The delay in mining also may delay construction of a five-mile stretch of the King Coal Highway, which is to connect Williamson with Bluefield and become part of the Interstate 73/74 corridor.
Pretty much its impossible to get a new mining permit anywhere in Appalachia now. As the permits expire, the mines shut down.
Good. Fuck coal.
Mining permits haven't been a problem in Alabama. In Walker County, AL there has been quite a bit of mining activity. I don't know why it would be different in WV.
Quote from: NE2 on November 03, 2012, 08:38:37 AM
Good. Fuck coal.
Right ... plus 1/2 of the energy production in the U.S.
We'll need to move on at some point. We might as well do it now rather than wait for fossil fuels to run out and cause a crisis.
Quote from: deanej on November 03, 2012, 04:19:21 PM
We'll need to move on at some point. We might as well do it now rather than wait for fossil fuels to run out and cause a crisis.
There is nothing available to handle even 10% of the requirements.
There's about 200 years of coal available, and there are environmentally sensitive ways to keep the pollution from escaping the plant.
And I don't think that coal and oil come from "fossils". That's baloney language.
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 09:41:25 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 03, 2012, 04:19:21 PM
We'll need to move on at some point. We might as well do it now rather than wait for fossil fuels to run out and cause a crisis.
There is nothing available to handle even 10% of the requirements.
There's about 200 years of coal available, and there are environmentally sensitive ways to keep the pollution from escaping the plant.
And I don't think that coal and oil come from "fossils". That's baloney language.
Well dead dinosaurs had a choice. They chould choose to preserve their bones and become fossils, or melt into a pressurized pile of goo that we now burn to scoot from cutout to cutout. So call them "pressurized goo fuels." Point is, because they came from a finite number of dead dinosaurs, we have a finite fuel supply. In the not too distant future (all things considered), we'll need to power pretty much everything through other sources. Biodiesel, nuclear, electric, solar, whatever it is, we're doing the right thing by keeping these technologies incubating now. While none of them are particularly viable, let's make sure that they're ready when we need them.
Quote from: Steve on November 03, 2012, 09:44:48 PM
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 09:41:25 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 03, 2012, 04:19:21 PM
We'll need to move on at some point. We might as well do it now rather than wait for fossil fuels to run out and cause a crisis.
There is nothing available to handle even 10% of the requirements.
There's about 200 years of coal available, and there are environmentally sensitive ways to keep the pollution from escaping the plant.
And I don't think that coal and oil come from "fossils". That's baloney language.
Well dead dinosaurs had a choice. They chould choose to preserve their bones and become fossils, or melt into a pressurized pile of goo that we now burn to scoot from cutout to cutout. So call them "pressurized goo fuels." Point is, because they came from a finite number of dead dinosaurs, we have a finite fuel supply. In the not too distant future (all things considered), we'll need to power pretty much everything through other sources. Biodiesel, nuclear, electric, solar, whatever it is, we're doing the right thing by keeping these technologies incubating now. While none of them are particularly viable, let's make sure that they're ready when we need them.
I don't believe that it came from "dead dinosaurs".
That's baloney language.
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 09:46:54 PM
Quote from: Steve on November 03, 2012, 09:44:48 PM
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 09:41:25 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 03, 2012, 04:19:21 PM
We'll need to move on at some point. We might as well do it now rather than wait for fossil fuels to run out and cause a crisis.
There is nothing available to handle even 10% of the requirements.
There's about 200 years of coal available, and there are environmentally sensitive ways to keep the pollution from escaping the plant.
And I don't think that coal and oil come from "fossils". That's baloney language.
Well dead dinosaurs had a choice. They chould choose to preserve their bones and become fossils, or melt into a pressurized pile of goo that we now burn to scoot from cutout to cutout. So call them "pressurized goo fuels." Point is, because they came from a finite number of dead dinosaurs, we have a finite fuel supply. In the not too distant future (all things considered), we'll need to power pretty much everything through other sources. Biodiesel, nuclear, electric, solar, whatever it is, we're doing the right thing by keeping these technologies incubating now. While none of them are particularly viable, let's make sure that they're ready when we need them.
I don't believe that it came from "dead dinosaurs".
That's baloney language.
Not dinosaurs, but dead plant matter.
"A fossil fuel, coal forms when dead plant matter is converted into peat, which in turn is converted into lignite, then sub-bituminous coal, then bituminous coal, and lastly anthracite. This involves biological and geological processes that take place over a long period."
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on November 03, 2012, 09:58:08 PM
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 09:46:54 PM
I don't believe that it came from "dead dinosaurs".
That's baloney language.
Not dinosaurs, but dead plant matter.
"A fossil fuel, coal forms when dead plant matter is converted into peat, which in turn is converted into lignite, then sub-bituminous coal, then bituminous coal, and lastly anthracite. This involves biological and geological processes that take place over a long period."
None of that would explain why some folks say it came from "fossils".
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on November 03, 2012, 09:58:08 PM
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 09:46:54 PM
I don't believe that it came from "dead dinosaurs".
That's baloney language.
Not dinosaurs, but dead plant matter.
"A fossil fuel, coal forms when dead plant matter is converted into peat, which in turn is converted into lignite, then sub-bituminous coal, then bituminous coal, and lastly anthracite. This involves biological and geological processes that take place over a long period."
None of that would explain why some folks say it came from "fossils".
If you literally believe the world was created less than 6,000 years ago, then you have far bigger issues than this thread will ever solve.
Quote from: Steve on November 03, 2012, 10:27:47 PM
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on November 03, 2012, 09:58:08 PM
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 09:46:54 PM
I don't believe that it came from "dead dinosaurs".
That's baloney language.
Not dinosaurs, but dead plant matter.
"A fossil fuel, coal forms when dead plant matter is converted into peat, which in turn is converted into lignite, then sub-bituminous coal, then bituminous coal, and lastly anthracite. This involves biological and geological processes that take place over a long period."
None of that would explain why some folks say it came from "fossils".
If you literally believe the world was created less than 6,000 years ago, then you have far bigger issues than this thread will ever solve.
There were not enough dinosaurs to account for even 0.1% of the oil and coal that has been extracted.
Holy butter jesus put oil on this earth for us to rape and pillage for our own selfish endeavors.
http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/20p19/
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 10:34:31 PM
Quote from: Steve on November 03, 2012, 10:27:47 PM
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on November 03, 2012, 09:58:08 PM
Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2012, 09:46:54 PM
I don't believe that it came from "dead dinosaurs".
That's baloney language.
Not dinosaurs, but dead plant matter.
"A fossil fuel, coal forms when dead plant matter is converted into peat, which in turn is converted into lignite, then sub-bituminous coal, then bituminous coal, and lastly anthracite. This involves biological and geological processes that take place over a long period."
None of that would explain why some folks say it came from "fossils".
If you literally believe the world was created less than 6,000 years ago, then you have far bigger issues than this thread will ever solve.
There were not enough dinosaurs to account for even 0.1% of the oil and coal that has been extracted.
Okay, so it turns out it's plant life. We have several hundred million years of plant life covering this Earth. Do some calculations and get back to me.
And let's get back to the topic at hand?
EDIT: Or we can lock it. Your call.
I think there is a way around this, although it depends on who owns the property to be mined/used for the road.
WVDOT can advertise for bids for grade and drain, and in the contract can specify that any coal extracted during the course of the construction belongs to the contractor. This serves the same purpose as allowing the coal to be mined and then building the road, but it's a road construction project and not a mining project.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2012, 10:56:08 PM
I think there is a way around this, although it depends on who owns the property to be mined/used for the road.
WVDOT can advertise for bids for grade and drain, and in the contract can specify that any coal extracted during the course of the construction belongs to the contractor. This serves the same purpose as allowing the coal to be mined and then building the road, but it's a road construction project and not a mining project.
Allowing the contractor to keep any coal that is "accidentally" mined during a road construction is a standard part of every WV road contract. Contractors are supposed to figure in whatever coal (or whatever else) they might come into and figure that into their bid as a negative. Someday ask me about WV 99.
Unfortunatly in this case, the mining company wants to mine a vast area of coal, leaving behind a road bed that is only as wide as, well, a road bed. If the state were to acquire the land, it would only acquire a much narrower ROW, and would render the rest of the coal unminable (too close to a road) for which the coal company would have to be paid. State does not have the money, and the whole point is that this project is being done in this way for this reason.
Yeah, the point of doing it this way was so that WV could bypass all parts of the process except the laying down of asphalt.