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Regional Boards => Great Lakes and Ohio Valley => Topic started by: mukade on July 14, 2011, 05:38:56 PM

Title: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: mukade on July 14, 2011, 05:38:56 PM
From the Chicago Trib:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-report-elginohare-bypass-should-be-built-as-toll-road-20110714,0,3369943.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-report-elginohare-bypass-should-be-built-as-toll-road-20110714,0,3369943.story)

If they go forward with this, it could potentially double the tolls on all Illinois tollways. I wonder how any large increase would fly.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: 3467 on July 14, 2011, 05:51:49 PM
The tollway ususally has a higher rate on the new road and leaves the older sections unchanged . They have a policy of only buildling routes that are self sustaining. That is why the downstate route are usually out. I suspect ISTHA would take money from teh feds or the state to make up teh difference if ran a money loser Dwonstate or in Chicago area
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Rick Powell on July 23, 2011, 08:23:27 PM
Quote from: 3467 on July 14, 2011, 05:51:49 PM
The tollway ususally has a higher rate on the new road and leaves the older sections unchanged . They have a policy of only buildling routes that are self sustaining. That is why the downstate route are usually out. I suspect ISTHA would take money from teh feds or the state to make up teh difference if ran a money loser Dwonstate or in Chicago area


The ISTHA has typically never taken money from the feds because of the strings attached - it would completely mess with their business plan.  They have had a lot of $ invested in their projects from IDOT.  Case in point-  the Elgin OHare study is being led by IDOT, the I 355 south extension study was led by IDOT and some of the land was bought with IDOT money.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: mukade on July 28, 2011, 06:29:08 PM
Frob the Chicago Trib: Agency seeks to double tolls to pay for $12 billion in projects

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-agency-seeks-35cent-hike-in-tolls-to-pay-for-12-billion-in-projects-20110728,0,4824444.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-agency-seeks-35cent-hike-in-tolls-to-pay-for-12-billion-in-projects-20110728,0,4824444.story)
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: 3467 on July 28, 2011, 06:45:13 PM
It looks like most of the spending is on existing roads  ex for teh Elgin Ohare. Looks like they are committing to IL 53 and the Illiana. I wonder about the Prarie parkway and if they will decide to study US 20.
The Tollway did raise tolls on the non IPASS users on their last big program of reconstruction that included the Veterns extension.

Thye seem to be following IDOT in offering sweeteners like a new road each major reconstruction period. this time its Elgin Ohare. Next time Route 53 and so on................
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Brandon on July 28, 2011, 08:46:37 PM
Good, we badly need the Illiana (screw the Elgin-Nowhere extension).  Now, if we can get the Prairie Pkwy off the ground, we'll have a hell of a real road system around here.  And not a minute too soon with two of the largest intermodal centers in the Midwest near 55 and 80.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: 3467 on July 28, 2011, 09:48:55 PM
http://www.illinoistollway.com/portal/page?_pageid=133,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
Everything is up on the tollway wesite . You can comment and go to hearings. There is a press release on Illinois 53 which looks like a go IF thye can make a few more people happy.....
No mention of P Parkway . I mentioned it and projcts they could study for the future like the Mid City Transitway -the mini Crosstown
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Rick Powell on July 28, 2011, 11:23:40 PM
Quote from: 3467 on July 28, 2011, 09:48:55 PM
http://www.illinoistollway.com/portal/page?_pageid=133,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
Everything is up on the tollway wesite . You can comment and go to hearings. There is a press release on Illinois 53 which looks like a go IF thye can make a few more people happy.....
No mention of P Parkway . I mentioned it and projcts they could study for the future like the Mid City Transitway -the mini Crosstown
The ISTHA has looked at Prairie Parkway.  When I was at IDOT, I sat before the tollway board and gave them a presentation on the project, and they did some studies.  It is apparently not on the front burner for the tollway with the release of the latest 15 year plan, but it is probably the most "shovel ready" (to use an overused term) project of all the new ones on the docket, and the tollway acknowledged recently that IDOT is the lead agency for the project and they will continue to work together on the project.  IDOT has completed the environmental studies, bought 10% of the land and protected the corridor for the remainder, and has preliminary grading and paving plans, soil studies and land acquisition documents "ready to go".  There is more potential traffic and revenue on a 53 extension or an O'Hare western bypass, at least with the population and traffic patterns of today.  Of course, these projects will be more expensive and take longer to complete than the ready-to-go Prairie Parkway.  At least the O'Hare western bypass has an active study on it and a priority push from the governor.

There is a bill on Gov. Quinn's desk, passed by the state General Assembly, to allow private sector development of tollways (HB 1091).  The Illiana already has legislation enabling private sector proposals for financing, building, and operating a toll highway.  The Illiana website is www.illianacorridor.org.   
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Revive 755 on July 31, 2011, 12:44:59 AM
Quote from: Brandon on July 28, 2011, 08:46:37 PM(screw the Elgin-Nowhere extension)

So I'm not the only one wondering if the Elgin-O'Hare is receiving too high of priority.  IMHO replacing the I-290/I-90 cloverleaf with a stack ought to be a higher priority than the Elgin-O'Hare eastward extension.

EDIT:  Interesting how the presentation on the ISTHA website has one map with the Illiana going west beyond I-55 to end at I-80:
http://www.illinoistollway.com/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/TW_CONTENT_REPOSITORY/TW_CR_ROOT/CAPITAL%20PLAN%20PPT%207%2028.PDF (http://www.illinoistollway.com/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/TW_CONTENT_REPOSITORY/TW_CR_ROOT/CAPITAL%20PLAN%20PPT%207%2028.PDF) (Page 8/27)

And I certainly do not agree with wasting more money on studies for the IL 53 extension - either update the EIS for a six lane freeway, or drop the project already.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: 3467 on July 31, 2011, 10:04:12 AM
I suspect this latest 53 stuff is just final cover because ISTHA put the 75% vote in the release.

I suspect the Elgin Ohare is to eleimate competition to the Northwest Tollway. That little stub carried far more traffic than I suspected.

I found the I-24 Tollway extension study. It said 30,000 vpd was needed for a tollway. I know PP is still below that over most of its length. I Lnow US 20 would only be a third of that, Maybe Rick Powell could help us on this one?

Also some small sections were suggested to the Tollway like Fox River bridges and some small bypasses. Doesn anyone know what happened there?
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Rick Powell on August 05, 2011, 01:16:30 AM
Quote from: 3467 on July 31, 2011, 10:04:12 AM
I found the I-24 Tollway extension study. It said 30,000 vpd was needed for a tollway. I know PP is still below that over most of its length. I Lnow US 20 would only be a third of that, Maybe Rick Powell could help us on this one?

Also some small sections were suggested to the Tollway like Fox River bridges and some small bypasses. Does anyone know what happened there?


Kane County is looking at a toll option for its Longmeadow Parkway bridge over the Fox.  I would assume it would allow IPass toll payment, not sure if the tollway is involved in any way.  As far as I know, there have been no public estimates of traffic volumes on Prairie Parkway if it were to be a toll facility.  As a freeway, it was projected to carry upwards of 50,000 vpd by 2030 in the most travelled sections.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Brandon on August 05, 2011, 07:35:00 AM
Quote from: Rick Powell on August 05, 2011, 01:16:30 AM
Quote from: 3467 on July 31, 2011, 10:04:12 AM
I found the I-24 Tollway extension study. It said 30,000 vpd was needed for a tollway. I know PP is still below that over most of its length. I Lnow US 20 would only be a third of that, Maybe Rick Powell could help us on this one?

Also some small sections were suggested to the Tollway like Fox River bridges and some small bypasses. Does anyone know what happened there?


Kane County is looking at a toll option for its Longmeadow Parkway bridge over the Fox.  I would assume it would allow IPass toll payment, not sure if the tollway is involved in any way.  As far as I know, there have been no public estimates of traffic volumes on Prairie Parkway if it were to be a toll facility.  As a freeway, it was projected to carry upwards of 50,000 vpd by 2030 in the most travelled sections.

I strongly suspect, if connected to the Illiana and the two massive intermodal yards near I-55, that that number would be much higher.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: 3467 on August 05, 2011, 07:55:32 PM
There is a post in Californai about a private/public tollway gone bust in San Diego.
My guess is as Rick and Brandon say volumes are close the ISTHA is going to protect the land and wait for the sure thing.
I dont see much hope for US 20 as a tollway. Quinn as usual vacilated but did say he didnt see much federal money coming so...
its tollways or go cheap ways
Rick has a good post on IDOTs history on cheap v expensive in Illinois Freeway History

Post Merge: December 31, 1969, 06:59:59 PM

http://www.co.kane.il.us/dot/foxBridges/longmeadowPkwy.aspx



Post Merge: August 26, 2011, 09:52:26 AM

http://capitolfax.com/2011/08/25/state-to-get-into-suburban-voters-pockets-yet-again/

Its official The E-O is built Iam still not clear if 53 can get started or will have to wait for even more money like the PP and Illiana.

Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Brandon on August 25, 2011, 08:16:01 PM
Damn, that's a biased sounding headline.  It's the first real toll increase (not tax) since 1983, and even this increase still puts us under the average toll per mile charged in the US.  One might remark on how ISTHA has done so much (I-355, I-88 widening, I-355 widening, I-294 upkeep and widening) with so little.

It means the studies can get under way for the Illiana and IL-53.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: mukade on August 25, 2011, 09:25:44 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 25, 2011, 08:16:01 PM
Damn, that's a biased sounding headline.  It's the first real toll increase (not tax) since 1983, and even this increase still puts us under the average toll per mile charged in the US.  One might remark on how ISTHA has done so much (I-355, I-88 widening, I-355 widening, I-294 upkeep and widening) with so little.
As a former daily user of the Illinois tollways, I know this will hurt many drivers big time. The poll in the Trib today shows 87% of the readers are against the increase. I don't think this can be justified 1) in these tough economic times, 2) where there are no good alternatives in many areas of Chicagoland, and 3) in a state where there is already a heavy tax burden. Not to mention so many of the state agencies are corrupt, so providing them so much additional money is probably not good. A smaller increase, I could see.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Stratuscaster on August 25, 2011, 10:19:15 PM
I can see where some folks might have trouble affording the increased tolls.

Just like some folks might have trouble affording the increased RTA/CTA/Pace/Metra fares.

Just like some folks might have trouble affording the increased cost of gasoline - or in some cases increased tax on gasoline.

As I've pointed out to others today - you aren't forced to use the tollways. One can easily get around northeastern Illinois without ever getting on a tollway. Might take some extra planning, might take some extra time, but it can be done.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: mukade on August 25, 2011, 10:42:07 PM
Quote from: Stratuscaster on August 25, 2011, 10:19:15 PM
As I've pointed out to others today - you aren't forced to use the tollways. One can easily get around northeastern Illinois without ever getting on a tollway. Might take some extra planning, might take some extra time, but it can be done.
Wow, that last comment shows you haven't lived through that. If you had, you would realize taking local roads over tollways could easily add 1-2 hours each way, cost extra gas, and increase wear and tear on your vehicle substantially. A few years ago when I didn't make much money I worked in western DuPage County and my wife worked in Merrillville, IN.  I hit six toll booths a day each way so that was $4.80 a day. Today, that would rise by $4.20 a day. With approximately 20 working days a month, that would be $84 extra per month - in addition to the high price of fuel (and Illinois has very high fuel prices). If you make $100K or more a year, you suck it up, but a lot of people don't make anything near that.

Your arguments make the case as to why people are fleeing Illinois if they can.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Rick Powell on August 26, 2011, 12:57:35 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 25, 2011, 08:16:01 PM
Damn, that's a biased sounding headline.  It's the first real toll increase (not tax) since 1983, and even this increase still puts us under the average toll per mile charged in the US.  One might remark on how ISTHA has done so much (I-355, I-88 widening, I-355 widening, I-294 upkeep and widening) with so little.

It means the studies can get under way for the Illiana and IL-53.

Studies are already underway for the Illiana...it's fully funded for the Environmental Impact study, with IDOT primarily managing the study and INDOT participating, providing leadership in the IN portion and providing partial funding.  There was already a public meeting in Matteson and one in Crown Point in June.  Not sure what the tollway's study allottment is envisioned for...we may hear more about that in the near future.

www.illianacorridor.org

IL 53 is being studied by a blue ribbon panel of all the movers and shakers in Lake County and the Chicago area.  Some long-time skeptics such as George Ranney, founder of the former Metropolis 2020 planning group, are now looking at actually getting behind the project.  They have a year for their committee to decide what the solution should look like...should be interesting given the diversity of the group.  Even the outfit that sued the tollway to stop the 355 extension (which got built anyway, after much ado) is part of the panel.  With the Build 53 community support that is out there, I think the pressure is on to come up with a solution that will pffer some kind of consolation to the opponents while providing a useful transportation solution.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Brandon on August 26, 2011, 07:10:49 AM
Quote from: mukade on August 25, 2011, 10:42:07 PM
Quote from: Stratuscaster on August 25, 2011, 10:19:15 PM
As I've pointed out to others today - you aren't forced to use the tollways. One can easily get around northeastern Illinois without ever getting on a tollway. Might take some extra planning, might take some extra time, but it can be done.
Wow, that last comment shows you haven't lived through that. If you had, you would realize taking local roads over tollways could easily add 1-2 hours each way, cost extra gas, and increase wear and tear on your vehicle substantially. A few years ago when I didn't make much money I worked in western DuPage County and my wife worked in Merrillville, IN.  I hit six toll booths a day each way so that was $4.80 a day. Today, that would rise by $4.20 a day. With approximately 20 working days a month, that would be $84 extra per month - in addition to the high price of fuel (and Illinois has very high fuel prices). If you make $100K or more a year, you suck it up, but a lot of people don't make anything near that.

Your arguments make the case as to why people are fleeing Illinois if they can.

They're fleeing due to taxes, not tolls.  Were IDOT to take over the tollways, our already high gas tax would have to increase over Indiana's and Wisconsin's by a substantial amount to maintain them as they are now.

BTW, you're from Indiana, so why do you care what our tolls are?
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Scott5114 on August 26, 2011, 09:56:28 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2011, 07:10:49 AM
BTW, you're from Indiana, so why do you care what our tolls are?

Quote from: mukade on August 25, 2011, 10:42:07 PM...I worked in western DuPage County and my wife worked in Merrillville, IN....

Just because you live east of an arbitrary line doesn't mean you're not affected by stuff on the other side of it, you know.
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Brandon on August 26, 2011, 08:10:17 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2011, 09:56:28 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2011, 07:10:49 AM
BTW, you're from Indiana, so why do you care what our tolls are?

Quote from: mukade on August 25, 2011, 10:42:07 PM...I worked in western DuPage County and my wife worked in Merrillville, IN....

Just because you live east of an arbitrary line doesn't mean you're not affected by stuff on the other side of it, you know.

I know that, but the point is that Indiana sold the Toll Road w/o any consent from Illinois, and tolls went up on the Toll Road, now we have Hoosiers complaining about tolls going up in Illinois to pay for projects urgently needed in Illinois?
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: mukade on August 26, 2011, 09:13:03 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2011, 07:10:49 AM
BTW, you're from Indiana, so why do you care what our tolls are?
1) I have family and friends in Chicagoland
2) I have always gone to Chicago area for certain shopping 4 or 5 times a year (specifically, a store called Mitsuwa in Arlington Hts.). Although Indy is getting more of the type of shopping you only saw in Chicagoland, there are places you only see up there, unfortunately.
3) and most importantly... I am one of the many victims of iZoom tags not working reliably on the Illinois Tollways. They sent a bill for $140 a year after the supposed "violation". Pay now or it goes way up and goes directly to collection. How can you prove you had a tag that day? Answer: you cannot. In my mind, ISTHA is like an organized crime ring.

Good enough?
Title: Re: IL - Elgin-O'Hare bypass should be built as toll road
Post by: Stratuscaster on August 26, 2011, 09:30:14 PM
Quote from: mukade on August 25, 2011, 10:42:07 PM
Quote from: Stratuscaster on August 25, 2011, 10:19:15 PM
As I've pointed out to others today - you aren't forced to use the tollways. One can easily get around northeastern Illinois without ever getting on a tollway. Might take some extra planning, might take some extra time, but it can be done.
Wow, that last comment shows you haven't lived through that. If you had, you would realize taking local roads over tollways could easily add 1-2 hours each way, cost extra gas, and increase wear and tear on your vehicle substantially. A few years ago when I didn't make much money I worked in western DuPage County and my wife worked in Merrillville, IN.  I hit six toll booths a day each way so that was $4.80 a day. Today, that would rise by $4.20 a day. With approximately 20 working days a month, that would be $84 extra per month - in addition to the high price of fuel (and Illinois has very high fuel prices). If you make $100K or more a year, you suck it up, but a lot of people don't make anything near that.

Your arguments make the case as to why people are fleeing Illinois if they can.
I've lived and worked in the northwest/west suburbs for going on 46 years.

Granted, I did not have a large long-distance commute such as your DuPage-Merrillville trek. But I was a poor working teenager and young adult and made a point of avoiding the tollways at all costs - that was back in '83 when the tolls were increased to 40 cents on most mainline plazas. For a kid making $3.35 an hour, 40 cents was a pretty big deal. And still today - while not making that desired $100K/year salary - I still may choose to avoid the tollway - or maybe not.

I've been known to take Roosevelt Road all the way in from IL-59 into Chicago to get to McCormick Place for work instead of sitting on 290, and 290 isn't even tolled. Yes, it takes longer. I leave earlier. I make it work for me.

I do use the tollways when it makes sense to do so. I've driven the tollways and turnpikes all the way from DuPage County to Harrisburg, PA - then turned around and took US-30 all the way back. I wanted to make time on the way out, and had time to kill on the way back.

My point still stands - nothing and no one is forcing anyone to use the tollways. It's your own needs and requirements that dictate your use of them.

Agree with Brandon - it's the taxes pushing people out of Illinois. The taxes on people, and the taxes on businesses that force them out of the state along with their job. Some might say a toll is just another kind of tax. Except that I can choose to not use the tollway and not pay that toll. I can't get away with not paying my taxes - that's kinda frowned upon.

In regards to an I-Zoom not working on I-Pass tolls, maybe just get an I-Pass instead? Mine's always worked on I-Zoom tolls as well as EZ-Pass tolls. Just sayin'. ;)