http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/d1/us12fort/docs/map-prefalt.pdf
This is route 7a, which differs slightly from 7 due to wetlands avoidance. This was my favorite from the beginning.
There is no schedule for construction. My guess it that it will be at least 15 years before this occurs.
This was also far and away my favorite routing. Simplest, most direct, etc. It also fits best into a future where US 12 may/will be a far more important road than it is now.
I do note some minor 'tweaks' in that final routing from the original '7a', mainly to avoid little this and thats, they will also make the US 12 Fort Atkinson bypass a more interesting and fun drive.
:cheers:
NOW - to get Illinois on the ball with this corridor - AND LOSE THAT PROPOSED PARKWAY SECTION AT RICHMOND! :banghead:
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on August 20, 2011, 01:50:59 PM
NOW - to get Illinois on the ball with this corridor - AND LOSE THAT PROPOSED PARKWAY SECTION AT RICHMOND! :banghead:
Mike
Parkway like a simple regular boulevard or "parkway" like Kentutky Parkways or the Don Valley Parkway in Toronto (I don't mention the Merritt, GSP and LI parkways)? I prefer the later terms. Maybe to apease those Nimbys at Richmond, how about calling it a "trail" like the Calgary trails who are major arteries around the city with some of them acting as freeways and expressways?
heres some illinois stuff about a US12 freeway http://www.richmondbypass.com/uploads/Reports/Feasibility_Report_Smaller.pdf
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on August 20, 2011, 02:21:59 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 20, 2011, 01:50:59 PM
NOW - to get Illinois on the ball with this corridor - AND LOSE THAT PROPOSED PARKWAY SECTION AT RICHMOND! :banghead:
Mike
Parkway like a simple regular boulevard or "parkway" like Kentutky Parkways or the Don Valley Parkway in Toronto (I don't mention the Merritt, GSP and LI parkways)? I prefer the later terms. Maybe to apease those Nimbys at Richmond, how about calling it a "trail" like the Calgary trails who are major arteries around the city with some of them acting as freeways and expressways?
'Parkway' as in 'fancy tree-lined boulevard'.
If built as shown in the above-linked study, it will be obsolete the day it opens.
:banghead:
Mike
some of the alternative plans for the interchange with WIS26 show a system interchange. how about this 1?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1110.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh454%2Fjordanah1%2Fhighway%2520renderings%2FWis26-US12-oldWIS26interchangenew.jpg&hash=7018a0e821e9f8aeaaa2296b67eb38e40b09bf78)
Quote from: mgk920 on August 20, 2011, 01:50:59 PM
NOW - to get Illinois on the ball with this corridor - AND LOSE THAT PROPOSED PARKWAY SECTION AT RICHMOND! :banghead:
Mike
You'll be thrilled to know that IDOT D1 is currently not a major participant in the current Richmond bypass studies and is apparently going to sit back and let Richmond do all the work. So your only hope for a decent bypass is to probably hope the toll authority gets interested in it.
Quote from: Jordanah1 on October 16, 2011, 05:05:39 PM
some of the alternative plans for the interchange with WIS26 show a system interchange. how about this 1?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1110.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh454%2Fjordanah1%2Fhighway%2520renderings%2FWis26-US12-oldWIS26interchangenew.jpg&hash=7018a0e821e9f8aeaaa2296b67eb38e40b09bf78)
My first option for this interchange would be look a lot like the northern US 151/WI 26 interchange north of Waupun. It'd be a diamond interchange with US 12 as the the thru route and a flyover for NB WI 26 and a reciprocal high speed ramp for SB WI 26.
Whenever I consider improvements to the US 12 corridor southeast of Madison, I do so with an eye towards something happening in Illinois eventually, regardless of how pie-in-the-sky that seems. It's the same reason I think WisDOT should be building a two lane US 12 on a 4 lane r/w between Elkhorn and Whitewater (well not Whitewater precisely, but east of the Kettle Moraine near CTH O.)
It's my opinion that a full system interchange at this location uses too much land for insufficient benefit. This is especially true because the WisDOT options I've seen have US 12 join WI 26 in a free-flow manner with an additional service interchange on US 12 to the southeast of the system interchange. I should whip up my alternative in the fictional thread this week.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 18, 2011, 05:48:10 PM
Quote from: Jordanah1 on October 16, 2011, 05:05:39 PM
some of the alternative plans for the interchange with WIS26 show a system interchange. how about this 1?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1110.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh454%2Fjordanah1%2Fhighway%2520renderings%2FWis26-US12-oldWIS26interchangenew.jpg&hash=7018a0e821e9f8aeaaa2296b67eb38e40b09bf78)
It's my opinion that a full system interchange at this location uses too much land for insufficient benefit. This is especially true because the WisDOT options I've seen have US 12 join WI 26 in a free-flow manner with an additional service interchange on US 12 to the southeast of the system interchange. I should whip up my alternative in the fictional thread this week.
thats why i had some of the connections at a slower speed, favoring WI26 through the curve, and US12 baisicaly strait with those connections, while the connections to the old WI26 are at slower speeds to save some space.
Walker halts Highway 12 bypass
http://dailyunion.com/main.asp?SectionID=36&SubSectionID=110&ArticleID=11265
It seems to me that Gov Wanker doesn't give a damn about the job creation that this project would bring because most likely it would be a union construction job. I understand the concerns of the residents in the area but US 12 as it currently is built, is a very busy road that needs an upgrade. In the long run, a bypass of Ft Atkinson would be cheaper than a widen in 2015 like the article mentioned because at some point this bypass will be built. Build it now and the state would save money.
Carefully read this article. He "halted work," but the work is just delayed. He essentially did this for political reasons. My guess is that the DOT is going to eventually bring this up later as a major project, and it will be approved, and it will be mapped.
This paper has a tendency to report news with a pro-Republican, pro-rural slant. While there may be strong opposition to bypass in the town, there is ten times more people who live in the city. This will eventually get done. 20 years from now, but it will get done.
But a "halt work" could last years and in this economy/unemployment situation, is a halt of a major road project REALLY a good idea? I don't think so. This corridor has been studied long enough. Now it's time to build. I would lay heavy odds that once US 12 is 4 laned (not even a full freeway) between Chicago and Madison, it would bring more travelers to the area (good for the local economy) because it would be a reasonable alternate to I-90.
BTW it seems a lot of the "local" Wisconsin papers have a pro-Republican slant. I am not familiar with the Daily Union but I am with the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel and the Oshkosh Northwestern. Both papers seem to "glow" about Walker's job that he has done. When i was in Oshkosh over Easter, in the NWern, there was an article about the bills that Walker signed into law. If you read the headline, you would think that it was good legislation on worker discrimination. But once you read the article, it was a lot of anti-worker in lawsuits against the company in discrimination cases.
I'll ignore the OT partisan political rants, but there are a lot of highly needed projects in the works in Wisconsin that do score higher on the 'immediate need' (for a lack of a better term) list such as US 10 Amherst Junction to I-39, WI 26 Milton bypass, I-94 in Racine, Kenosha and southern Milwaukee Counties and so on and failing a 'dam failure' traffic swamping that could definitely happen with regards to US 12, the currently planned upgrades to the existing road (and yes, it badly needs work whether or not the bypass is built) should be good to go for 20 or so years. By then the bypass will be needed and I agree, the project was *NOT* killed/cancelled, only delayed and put on a back burner until then.
Also, about a year ago, Walker delayed the rebuild of the rest of I-94 south of Milwaukee to concentrate on the greater and much more immediate SE Wisconsin area need - the Zoo Interchange.
Mike
Without trying to be too partisan, anytime this country has been in a recession, one of the keys in moving forward from those situations has been major public works projects, such as Hoover Dam and the Interstate Act. It would be nice if politicians realize the need of knowing American history.
Quote from: hobsini2 on April 23, 2012, 10:48:24 PM
Without trying to be too partisan, anytime this country has been in a recession, one of the keys in moving forward from those situations has been major public works projects, such as Hoover Dam and the Interstate Act. It would be nice if politicians realize the need of knowing American history.
Keynesianism does not work.
Mike
mgk920ianism does not work.
Keynes
Quote from: mgk920 on April 23, 2012, 11:42:06 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on April 23, 2012, 10:48:24 PM
Without trying to be too partisan, anytime this country has been in a recession, one of the keys in moving forward from those situations has been major public works projects, such as Hoover Dam and the Interstate Act. It would be nice if politicians realize the need of knowing American history.
Keynesianism does not work.
That is too absolute a statement. Increased government spending can work short-term, but tends to get bogged down long-term due to government deficit. However, Keynesian monetary policy most definitely has been shown to work...almost too well...to stimulate the economy. In fact the abuse of monetary policy is one of the reason we are in the situation we are in right now.
One could argue that borrowing money to finance construction projects now (and I don't mean funding government deficits in a general account) makes a ton of sense since the cost to borrow money is ungodly cheap. Despite massive federal debt, there is very little investor trust in other vehicles.
For one thing, I never EVER tout how many jobs might be 'created' by the act of constructing a well thought-out infrastructure upgrade project - as those jobs will all go 'poof!' the instant that the project is complete. I look upon such projects as *economic enablers*, making true, more wholesome long-term private-sector economic activity, and the growth thereof, all the more possible. And if interest rates (if money must be borrowed to finance it) are such that the schedule for a good project can be moved up a year or two, all the better.
Building poorly thought-out projects simply to 'stimulate the economy' (Keynesianism) will ultimately fail for the reason that I stated above - made all the worse if money had to be borrowed for it if there was not enough cash already in the pvblic treasury to cover it.
Mike.
Quote from: mgk920 on April 24, 2012, 11:17:52 AM
For one thing, I never EVER tout how many jobs might be 'created' by the act of constructing a well thought-out infrastructure upgrade project - as those jobs will all go 'poof!' the instant that the project is complete. I look upon such projects as *economic enablers*, making true, more wholesome long-term private-sector economic activity, and the growth thereof, all the more possible. And if interest rates (if money must be borrowed to finance it) are such that the schedule for a good project can be moved up a year or two, all the better.
Building poorly thought-out projects simply to 'stimulate the economy' (Keynesianism) will ultimately fail for the reason that I stated above - made all the worse if money had to be borrowed for it if there was not enough cash already in the pvblic treasury to cover it.
Mike.
You might want a refresher on Keynesiam. It is more complex than just government spending to stimulate the economy.
Quote from: mgk920 on April 24, 2012, 11:17:52 AM
For one thing, I never EVER tout how many jobs might be 'created' by the act of constructing a well thought-out infrastructure upgrade project - as those jobs will all go 'poof!' the instant that the project is complete. I look upon such projects as *economic enablers*, making true, more wholesome long-term private-sector economic activity, and the growth thereof, all the more possible. And if interest rates (if money must be borrowed to finance it) are such that the schedule for a good project can be moved up a year or two, all the better.
Building poorly thought-out projects simply to 'stimulate the economy' (Keynesianism) will ultimately fail for the reason that I stated above - made all the worse if money had to be borrowed for it if there was not enough cash already in the pvblic treasury to cover it.
Mike.
That was not my point Mike. Looking at the broad picture of any project, while the construction jobs are short term, the building of projects such as roads, stadiums, schools, etc boost the production in manufacturing of equipment. So while those construction jobs are short term, they still are genuine jobs that increase other areas of the economy. And the companies that get those contracts for projects usually have more contracts that they bid on and win so the workers are not "out of a job". They are just on to the next project.
Is the national debt a big deal? Certainly. But at the same time, keeping jobs here in America (which if I were in charge I would tax the hell out of companies that are based here but manufacture over there) and increasing our exports would lower the debt.
BTW what's your stand at buying B-2 bombers at $1 billion and F-35 fighters at $200 million each? For just the cost of 1 B-2 bomber the entire US 12 upgrade from Elkhorn to Madison would be paid.
Please understand this is not a personal attack on you Mike. I love your posts (most of the time). I just want you to understand where I am coming from.
So much for my one escape from political bickering. :rolleyes:
Roads are built by governments. Governments are run by politicians. Therefore, roadbuilding and politics shall always be intertwined.
Oh please, you can easily discuss roads without bringing the political bickering into it.
Quote from: InterstateNG on April 24, 2012, 10:24:23 PM
Oh please, you can easily discuss roads without bringing the political bickering into it.
Agreed!
He could have simply announced that Governor Walker 'back burnered' the US 12 project without taking that political cheap shot at him in the process. Yes, political tensions are fairly high here in Wisconsin right now, but the cheap shot was uncalled for.
Quote from: hobsini2 on April 24, 2012, 05:26:49 PMBTW what's your stand at buying B-2 bombers at $1 billion and F-35 fighters at $200 million each? For just the cost of 1 B-2 bomber the entire US 12 upgrade from Elkhorn to Madison would be paid.
My stand is that I do not follow 'red herrings'.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on April 25, 2012, 12:22:36 AM
Quote from: InterstateNG on April 24, 2012, 10:24:23 PM
Oh please, you can easily discuss roads without bringing the political bickering into it.
Agreed!
He could have simply announced that Governor Walker 'back burnered' the US 12 project without taking that political cheap shot at him in the process. Yes, political tensions are fairly high here in Wisconsin right now, but the cheap shot was uncalled for.
Quote from: hobsini2 on April 24, 2012, 05:26:49 PMBTW what's your stand at buying B-2 bombers at $1 billion and F-35 fighters at $200 million each? For just the cost of 1 B-2 bomber the entire US 12 upgrade from Elkhorn to Madison would be paid.
My stand is that I do not follow 'red herrings'.
Mike
That's not a red herring. It is a perfectly legit question. If the government spends $1 billion dollars on a single bomber, then why is there not outcry from the same people who cry about the national debt?
Also, The Department of Defense Budget for Fiscal Year 2010 is a total of $683.7 Billion. The Department of Transportation Budget for the same time period is $73,248,000,000. So the military budget is over 9 times that of the transportation budget. And comparing the military budget of the US to that of other major countries shows even more of a disparity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
Another contrast near and dear to me is the budget of the National Weather Service via Homeland Security.
The entire budget for the NWS is down to $872.2 million which has to be divided among 120 offices in the US, Guam, American Samoa, and Puerto Rico. The dopplers at each NWS office have a max range of 150 miles radius. The first problem is because of the curvature of the earth the radar beam's effectiveness is between 20 to 100 miles. The beam can see the top of a storm 150 miles away from the radar but can't give an idea of what is really going on at the surface up to about 10,000 feet. The other problem is because of the spacing between radars especially out west, there are "dead zones" that are not covered by any radar and the office responsible for a specific town in the dead zone has to make a complete guess based on previous scans and the current satellite imagery. For example, Clayton, NM is in a dead zone between the radars of Albuquerque, Pueblo, Canon AFB/Clovis, and Amarillo. Albuquerque is the office responsible for the area. The radar is 15 miles west of Downtown ABQ. Clayton is 200 miles as the crow flys.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/46430601/Weather_Service_In_Eye_of_Budget_Cut_Storm
I would not have a problem with people who worry about the debt if they also worried about how much we spend in military when it could be used for other departments within the government.
Quote from: hobsini2 on April 25, 2012, 09:38:40 PM
I would not have a problem with people who worry about the debt if they also worried about how much we spend in military when it could be used for other departments within the government.
The problem is that we have taken it upon ourselves to police the world - first against communism now against terrorism. We have almost completely underwritten the self-defense of Western Europe for instance.
Okay, this thread appears to have long since stopped discussing US-12.
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