Which states currently use red arrows for protected turns? So far I know of:
- Minnesota
- Nebraska
- Kentucky
- Illinois (northern and southern, but not around St. Louis)
- Iowa (at least in Council Bluffs, Davenport, and a new signal in Coralville)
- Florida
There's also some extremely sporadic use of red arrows in Missouri, with one light in Union, one light at Lambert Airport, and a former(?) one somewhere in Springfield near the Missouri State campus, but all of these are on non-state maintained roadways.
These are the states I know of
-Maine
-New Hampshire
-Massachusetts
-New York
-New Jersey
-Delaware
-Maryland
-California
-Vermont
-Oregon
-Washington
-District of Columbia
-Louisiana
-Arizona
-Nevada
-Idaho
-Wyoming
-Montana
-Alaska
-Hawaii
-North and South Dakota
-Arkansas
-Oklahoma
-Colorado
-Georgia
These are the states other than yours that I am sure have the red arrow phase. I am sure there are others, but I just need to look around.
Ontario, or at least Thunder Bay.
Quote from: froggie on March 09, 2009, 06:52:24 PM
Louisiana and Hawaii use of red left arrows is not uniform.
huh, really? Hmm, I guess the photos I've seen must have been odities then.
I know that North Carolina has at least one at Whalebone Junction(US 158/US 64/NC 12) and probably more
Wisconsin use them all over
They are all over the place in Pennsylvania. In most cases they are completely unnecessary and impede traffic flow by adding extra phases to each light cycle.
We actually have intersections where they are removing jughandles in favor of left arrows.
Quote from: LPCJr on March 09, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
They are all over the place in Pennsylvania. In most cases they are completely unnecessary and impede traffic flow by adding extra phases to each light cycle.
We actually have intersections where they are removing jughandles in favor of left arrows.
Jughandles - ugh!!!!
Quote from: LPCJr on March 09, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
They are all over the place in Pennsylvania.
Pennsylvania actually doesn't use the red arrow at all except in Philadelphia and a few in Pittsburgh.
Add Des Moines to that Iowa list. I've seen a few, not many, red left arrows around town.
Quote from: PennDOTFan on March 09, 2009, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: LPCJr on March 09, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
They are all over the place in Pennsylvania.
Pennsylvania actually doesn't use the red arrow at all except in Philadelphia and a few in Pittsburgh.
PennDOT took the Philadelphia design (yellow signals and black backplates) and spread it across the state but for some reason left out the red arrows.
Quote from: PennDOTFan on March 09, 2009, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: LPCJr on March 09, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
They are all over the place in Pennsylvania.
Pennsylvania actually doesn't use the red arrow at all except in Philadelphia and a few in Pittsburgh.
Not true. There are easily dozens of them here in Chester County.
District 6 does signal installations like I've never seen elsewhere in the Commonwealth, especially their liberal use of pedestal signals.
On a semi-related note, I was looking at a video aimed at showing people how to drive. The video was produced by the California DMV. In California, it's illegal to make any turns against a red arrow (right or left). I live in Georgia, so I knew it's illegal turn left on a red arrow. I checked with GDOT on right turns against a red arrow, and the reponse was that it's okay as long as you stop on the right turn. (Many drivers don't stop on red, they just roll on through. I used to do that, but now I stop.)
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: Master son on March 09, 2009, 09:31:41 PM
Jughandles - ugh!!!!
Lolz. I laugh because I'm from Jersey and we have them all over the place. They SUCK!!!! X-(
Bear in mind that unless it's on a state highway, the local city/town or county is likely responsible for the traffic signals. In some cases, even if it is a state highway, the city/town is responsible.
This could be the cause for some of the apparent non-uniformity you may find within a state.
Quote from: LPCJr on March 09, 2009, 10:20:49 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on March 09, 2009, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: LPCJr on March 09, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
They are all over the place in Pennsylvania.
Pennsylvania actually doesn't use the red arrow at all except in Philadelphia and a few in Pittsburgh.
Not true. There are easily dozens of them here in Chester County.
Really? Never seen any there.
Quote from: PAHighways on March 09, 2009, 10:50:28 PM
District 6 does signal installations like I've never seen elsewhere in the Commonwealth, especially their liberal use of pedestal signals.
:nod: :nod: true
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 09, 2009, 05:55:03 PM
Which states currently use red arrows for protected turns? So far I know of:
- Minnesota
- Nebraska
- Kentucky
- Illinois (northern and southern, but not around St. Louis)
- Iowa (at least in Council Bluffs, Davenport, and a new signal in Coralville)
- Florida
Arkansas is sporadic and primarily associated with Flashing Yellow Arrow signals. Fort Smith has at least 15 intersections with FYA's, but I'm not sure about the rest of the state.
NY's use of the red arrow in not uniform. Most protected turns don't have a red arrow, only green and yellow arrows. There's one intersection with a protected left turn that has a standard light that simply has a sign saying "left turn signal".
a lot of states (like Pennsylvania) typically use the red ball indication for protected left turns...
http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/PennsylvaniaTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5310497625582191778 (http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/PennsylvaniaTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5310497625582191778)
And in almost all states, the protected/permitted signal is a "doghouse" style signal (except some where an inline 5 or 4 is used), like this...
http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/PennsylvaniaTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5310497717460975362 (http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/PennsylvaniaTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5310497717460975362) (my old avatar :D)
In New Jersey, for protected turns with red arrows, we usually don't do it the Pennsylvania way that PennDOTFan showed above. We usually include a fourth signal down on the traffic light specifically for this turn.
Quote from: yanksfan6129 on March 10, 2009, 07:09:23 PM
In New Jersey, for protected turns with red arrows, we usually don't do it the Pennsylvania way that PennDOTFan showed above. We usually include a fourth signal down on the traffic light specifically for this turn.
you mean an inline 4 like this :sombrero: :sombrero:?
http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewJerseyTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5311709804616668850 (http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewJerseyTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5311709804616668850) :-D
Delaware overuses these. Many turns are protected that really don't need it. Delaware also split-phases way to many intersections, especially those with subdivision entrances that are across from one another.
Quote from: aaroads on March 10, 2009, 07:55:32 PM
Delaware overuses these. Many turns are protected that really don't need it. Delaware also split-phases way to many intersections, especially those with subdivision entrances that are across from one another.
yay, im not the only one who thinks this ;-)
Quote from: PennDOTFan on March 10, 2009, 07:48:37 PM
Quote from: yanksfan6129 on March 10, 2009, 07:09:23 PM
In New Jersey, for protected turns with red arrows, we usually don't do it the Pennsylvania way that PennDOTFan showed above. We usually include a fourth signal down on the traffic light specifically for this turn.
Yes, exactly. My writing abilities are drained because I had a 10 page research paper due today.
you mean an inline 4 like this :sombrero: :sombrero:?
http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewJerseyTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5311709804616668850 (http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewJerseyTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5311709804616668850) :-D
:wow:10 page?? jeeze :no:not cool
Its not huge compared to college research papers, but for now . . .
oh boy i cant wait :ded:
Quote from: froggie on March 10, 2009, 07:49:04 PM
Agree that New York is not uniform. But in my experience (mostly Upstate and the Hudson Valley), protected left turns using a standard red ball instead of a red arrow are the exception instead of the norm.
Here in Rochester you mainly see the "doghouse" style.
Some Texas cities use red arrows for protected turns:
Beaumont
Lubbock
Dallas
Waco area
Pasadena (double red arrow)
OK - take that one step further. What states are using the part-time protected only turn, with a flashing yellow arrow during off-peak periods allowing a permissive left? In Colorado along CDOT-maintained routes, Pueblo seems to be the primary place where they are being evaluated. FYI, they are not used when there are multiple turn lanes; protected-only turns are indicated for that situation.
I haven't seen any flashing yellow arrows in Pennsylvania. They aren't even mentioned as being used in other states in the Driver's Manual (http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pa_driversmanual/chapter_2.pdf).
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on March 10, 2009, 11:11:28 PM
OK - take that one step further. What states are using the part-time protected only turn, with a flashing yellow arrow during off-peak periods allowing a permissive left? In Colorado along CDOT-maintained routes, Pueblo seems to be the primary place where they are being evaluated. FYI, they are not used when there are multiple turn lanes; protected-only turns are indicated for that situation.
MoDOT was trying some on MO 340 west of I-270:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.678194,-90.468764&spn=0,359.994507&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.67813,-90.468611&panoid=2zjqK4MQ13mBQ6Woufrzjw&cbp=12,281.7514931313731,,0,6.7578125 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.678194,-90.468764&spn=0,359.994507&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.67813,-90.468611&panoid=2zjqK4MQ13mBQ6Woufrzjw&cbp=12,281.7514931313731,,0,6.7578125)
I believe there are supposed to be more in Missouri for new/replacement signal installations in the future.
I don't think the flashing yellow arrow is a good idea, at least in Missouri, where flashing yellow is used for inactive signals - such as fire station signals on state roads, or many signals during the late night/early morning hours. I also cannot recall ever seeing anyone fail to understand "left turn yield on [green ball]," so I have doubts about the need for it.
EDIT: MoDOT site on the flashing yellow left turn arrows for reference:
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/links/flashingyellowarrows.htm (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/links/flashingyellowarrows.htm)
Quote from: Revive 755 link=topic=535.msg12750#msg12750 I also cannot recall ever seeing anyone fail to understand "left turn yield ongreen ball]," so I have doubts about the need for it.
EDIT: MoDOT site on the flashing yellow left turn arrows for reference:
http://www.modot.org/stlouis/links/flashingyellowarrows.htm (http://www.modot.org/stlouis/links/flashingyellowarrows.htm)
I can see MoDOT's reasoning for the flashing yellow light, but I'm with you, the green ball and a sign re-enforcing the fact "left turn yield on green" would be prudent enough. Flashing lights, I think, will "confuse" folks even more.
Be well,
Bryant
The first intersection, located on the southside of College Park (GA), has a green protected arrow and a green, yellow and red ball. The intersecting roads are Godby Road and <-- Norman Boulevard/Southampton Road -->.
The second intersection, located in Lawrenceville (GA), along SR 316 (University Parkway) at SR 20/124 (Buford Drive), uses double red arrows for protected left turns.
Be well,
Bryant
[attachment deleted by admin]
What about double red ball left turn indicators? The only place I've seen these are in Houston.
San Diego seems to be pretty consistent with the red left-turn arrows.
I was in Burlington, ON and I noticed the green left turn indicators blinked. Or it was the yellow, can't exactly remember.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm traaaffiic siiiiiiiignaaaaaaals :colorful:
Some of the left turn signals in New York look like these:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewYorkTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5289469382366653250 (http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewYorkTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5289469382366653250)
Quote from: PennDOTFan on March 11, 2009, 03:46:05 PM
Some of the left turn signals in New York look like these:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewYorkTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5289469382366653250 (http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewYorkTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5289469382366653250)
I've noticed some like that in Gwinnett and Hall counties, Georgia. It's odd to see a traffic light hanging by a long wire like that, along with the lane assignment signs.
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: leonontheroad on March 11, 2009, 03:01:47 PM
What about double red ball left turn indicators? The only place I've seen these are in Houston.
I think North Carolina had a lot of them in the past, but I can't find any on streetview today, only red arrows and dog house setups. I referred to them as bug-eyed or insectesoid lights due to their setup:
R R
Y
G
(can't remember if they were arrow or ball-shaped for the yellow and green)
Quote from: leonontheroad on March 11, 2009, 03:01:47 PM
What about double red ball left turn indicators? The only place I've seen these are in Houston.
On Google Streets, I've seen double red ball turn signals in Dallas, Austin, Laredo and San Angelo.
Quote from: FreewayDan on March 11, 2009, 07:15:05 PM
Quote from: leonontheroad on March 11, 2009, 03:01:47 PM
What about double red ball left turn indicators? The only place I've seen these are in Houston.
On Google Streets, I've seen double red ball turn signals in Dallas, Austin, Laredo and San Angelo.
They do use those in North Carolina, but the ones I've seen are:
R
R
Y
G
I probably have a photo or two in the collection somewhere.
If I recall correctly, the next revision of the MUTCD is proposing to make red arrows a standard with protected left turns. This would mean a full red green/yellow green/green arrow display would be required. No more terminating a green arrow with a red ball, and no more all-circular displays with the "left turn signal" sign.
Now, a reply from the budding traffic engineer:
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on March 10, 2009, 11:11:28 PM
OK - take that one step further. What states are using the part-time protected only turn, with a flashing yellow arrow during off-peak periods allowing a permissive left? In Colorado along CDOT-maintained routes, Pueblo seems to be the primary place where they are being evaluated. FYI, they are not used when there are multiple turn lanes; protected-only turns are indicated for that situation.
Right now, the flashing yellow arrow (FYA) is used on an experimental basis. Jurisdictions wishing to experiment with it must apply for it through the FHWA. A list of the jurisdictions that have interim approval from the FHWA to implement the FYA can be found here (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ialistreq.htm) (scroll down to "IA-10" in the table) Note that the granting of interim approval does not necessarily mean the agency is actually using it--I don't believe Carson City, NV has currently implemented a FYA.
In the 2009 MUTCD, FYA is currently proposed as the suggested standard for protected/permitted left turn (PPLT) signals, with the current 5-section/doghouse signal heads retained as an option. Other methods of depicting a permissive left turn (i.e. flashing green arrow, flashing red arrow, flashing red ball, etc.) would no longer be allowed. FYA, like typical PPLT situations, can only be implemented where there is only one turn lane on the approach.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 11, 2009, 12:33:28 AM
I don't think the flashing yellow arrow is a good idea, at least in Missouri, where flashing yellow is used for inactive signals - such as fire station signals on state roads, or many signals during the late night/early morning hours. I also cannot recall ever seeing anyone fail to understand "left turn yield on [green ball]," so I have doubts about the need for it.
While the use of flashing yellow at emergency signals is clearly understood, many jurisdictions have been changing these to full red/yellow/green operations (many emergency signals along major arterials in Las Vegas have had this change). Additionally, many jurisdictions have been phasing out the yellow & red flash operations during the late night hours, as modern signal technology can better address low volume situations while maintaining full operation (using multiple timing plans and better detection). Even where those flashing operations still exist, the flashing yellow in these instances conveys the message "proceed with caution". This is the same message conveyed through FYA, just as an arrow form instead of a ball.
FYA was brought about in part because not all drivers understand the "left turn yield on [green ball]" concept. Another consideration the elimination of conflicting displays, as in the case of a lead-lead protected turn where drivers see a red ball and a green arrow in the same display simultaneously. Yet another consideration is that the current 5-section PPLT display does not easily lend itself to lead-lag left turn operations (which is desirable in signal coordination) without some kind of modification, creating the "yellow trap" situation. The FYA display does have the benefit of easily switching between protected-only and permissive-only modes without having to worry about the green ball of the normal 5-section display.
There has been considerable discussion and research about FYA in the traffic engineering realm over the last ~10 years. The research has been showing increased comprehension and compliance compared to the 5-section PPLT displays. In several field studies where it has been implemented, there has also been reductions in left-turn accidents where the left turning driver inappropriately assumed the right-of-way. More and more agencies nationwide have been interested in FYA, and the positive research results have been what has led FHWA to propose making it standard in the next MUTCD. With that said, there are some agencies that are still not quite convinced. I know Las Vegas has been skeptical of the FYA, instead preferring their own modification to the 5-section display when the left turn runs protected-only modes.
If you're interested in more specifics, search for "NCHRP 3-54" (research project) or "NCHRP 493" (report).
Nice bit of information there roadfro.
The flashing green ball concept was used in Delaware at a couple of intersections through the 1990s. The two that I knew of were switched to standard signal cycles by the early 2000s. Around the late 1990s, Delaware also introduced the "T" signals with a red ball and flashing red arrow. The premise was that drivers could turn after making a complete stop if the traffic was clear. If a driver waited long enough, the flashing red arrow would become static and the signals in the opposite direction would cycle in a conventional manner to allow the turn movement. These too were phased out by the mid-2000s.
Quote from: roadfro on March 12, 2009, 12:07:42 AM
While the use of flashing yellow at emergency signals is clearly understood, many jurisdictions have been changing these to full red/yellow/green operations (many emergency signals along major arterials in Las Vegas have had this change). Additionally, many jurisdictions have been phasing out the yellow & red flash operations during the late night hours, as modern signal technology can better address low volume situations while maintaining full operation (using multiple timing plans and better detection). Even where those flashing operations still exist, the flashing yellow in these instances conveys the message "proceed with caution". This is the same message conveyed through FYA, just as an arrow form instead of a ball.
Better address low volume situations? I'm not convinced. And I definitely don't think detection is better today; video detection seems to malfunction too much, and I've seen lots of intersections where a leading arrow won't come up at all lately.
The message I've grown up with for flashing yellow is "side traffic has a flashing red, expect them to stop but watch them in case they pull out."
Quote
FYA was brought about in part because not all drivers understand the "left turn yield on [green ball]" concept.
I think/have seen more drivers have a problem understanding "Exit Only," or wonder if some of them are flipping coins to make driving decisions.
Quote
If you're interested in more specifics, search for "NCHRP 3-54" (research project) or "NCHRP 493" (report).
I've looked through the report. First question: is main road flashing yellow/side road flashing red used in the studied states (Texas, Michigan, Delaware, Oregon, Washington, California, and Florida)? Second question: Why didn't they study a few more alternatives, such as use of a flashing green ball or flashing green arrow as long as they undertook the study? Also, the study appears to have not looked at the effects of using a "Left Turn Yield On [green ball]" sign, nor Illinois's blank out left turn yield display (example: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.543869,-90.195265&spn=0,359.912109&z=14&layer=c&cbll=38.54375,-90.195297&panoid=I2vwlqS0q3q0bm7XWldd4w&cbp=12,208.21289062499991,,0,-17.939453124999996 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.543869,-90.195265&spn=0,359.912109&z=14&layer=c&cbll=38.54375,-90.195297&panoid=I2vwlqS0q3q0bm7XWldd4w&cbp=12,208.21289062499991,,0,-17.939453124999996))
After reading this and a few other studies, I think a better solution would be better driver's education, better testing, and maybe requiring an occasional refresher courses for the 65+ age group.
Here some intersections, all of which are located in North Clayton County, Georgia, that use a red arrow for protected turns when the light is, of course, red (lol).
The first photo is of the intersection of SR 85 and Garden Walk/East Garden Walk Boulevards.
The second photo is of the intersection of Riverdale Road (SR 139) and Flat Shoals Road.
The third photo is of the intersection of Riverdale Road (SR 139) and Phoenix Boulevard/Forest Parkway (Old Sullivan Road).
Be well,
Bryant
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 12, 2009, 02:18:43 AMI think/have seen more drivers have a problem understanding "Exit Only," or wonder if some of them are flipping coins to make driving decisions.
I had one of them e-mail me once asking why I had an exit on my I-70 Exit Guide marked as such when the Interstate continues beyond that interchange.
I'm gonna half-take-back what I had said about NJ traffic signals earlier. In my town, just yesterday, they installed a new traffic signal that was in the PA style on PennDotFan's old avatar: you know, the top being a light and then two side by side two thingies. And since I've been looking the past few days around NJ for 'em, I've seen that about 30% are that style and the others are all the "inline four" style.
Quote from: froggie on March 12, 2009, 10:06:46 AM
QuoteThe flashing green ball concept was used in Delaware at a couple of intersections through the 1990s. The two that I knew of were switched to standard signal cycles by the early 2000s. Around the late 1990s, Delaware also introduced the "T" signals with a red ball and flashing red arrow. The premise was that drivers could turn after making a complete stop if the traffic was clear. If a driver waited long enough, the flashing red arrow would become static and the signals in the opposite direction would cycle in a conventional manner to allow the turn movement. These too were phased out by the mid-2000s.
These still existed as late as mid-2005 along US 113. Have not been along there more recently to see if that's still the case.
On the subject of flashing yellow arrows, I recently came upon a flashing yellow RIGHT arrow, in D.C. on Virginia Ave near Rock Creek Pkwy. I believe it's due to a large number of pedestrians, but I didn't get a good look at the signage nor did I get a picture (it's on the to-do list).
Delaware had two flashing right yellow arrows at one point. One was along Delaware 2 at Albertson Drive, opposite the one entrance to Price's Corner shopping center. I did snap an image of it with the yellow arrow illuminated here:
(https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware001/de-002_wb_at_albertson_bl.jpg)
A second right-hand yellow arrow in place of a green ball was in use at East Main Street and Kirkwood Highway/Library Avenue in Newark. This is where Delaware 2/2 Business, 72, and 273 come together north of the CSX Railroad overpass. This was removed when the intersection was upgraded from a span wire to a mast-arm based installation.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 12, 2009, 02:18:43 AM
Better address low volume situations? I'm not convinced. And I definitely don't think detection is better today; video detection seems to malfunction too much, and I've seen lots of intersections where a leading arrow won't come up at all lately.
The red/yellow flash nighttime flash mode is primarily a holdover from the days where traffic signals were only timer based. The mode prevented unnecessary delays by not making side street vehicles wait a whole cycle for a green, and also by not needlessly stopping main street traffic when no side traffic was present. Vehicle detection and actuation technology eliminate the need for this mode. In a late-night low-volume situation, a signal with proper detection operating in fully-actuated R/Y/G mode can operate just as effectively as a signal that is in red/yellow flash mode.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 12, 2009, 02:18:43 AM
The message I've grown up with for flashing yellow is "side traffic has a flashing red, expect them to stop but watch them in case they pull out."
The problem with that is that a flashing yellow signal does not necessarily have to be at an intersection (i.e. fire station signals, pedestrian crossings). Here's the official meaning of a flashing yellow from the 2003 MUTCD (Sec. 4D.04):
"Flashing yellow—When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, vehicular traffic is permitted to proceed through the intersection or past such signal indication only with caution."Quote from: Revive 755 on March 12, 2009, 02:18:43 AM
I've looked through the report. First question: is main road flashing yellow/side road flashing red used in the studied states (Texas, Michigan, Delaware, Oregon, Washington, California, and Florida)? Second question: Why didn't they study a few more alternatives, such as use of a flashing green ball or flashing green arrow as long as they undertook the study? Also, the study appears to have not looked at the effects of using a "Left Turn Yield On [green ball]" sign, nor Illinois's blank out left turn yield display (example: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.543869,-90.195265&spn=0,359.912109&z=14&layer=c&cbll=38.54375,-90.195297&panoid=I2vwlqS0q3q0bm7XWldd4w&cbp=12,208.21289062499991,,0,-17.939453124999996 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.543869,-90.195265&spn=0,359.912109&z=14&layer=c&cbll=38.54375,-90.195297&panoid=I2vwlqS0q3q0bm7XWldd4w&cbp=12,208.21289062499991,,0,-17.939453124999996))
1.) I would wager a guess that most of these jurisdictions are not using red/yellow flash operations (except in maybe in some rural circumstances)...but I cannot speak from experience on that.
2.) A FYA best conveys reflects the situation when compared to the meaning prescribed to flashing signal indications, at least as I read it in the MUTCD. Using a red indication would imply that a complete stop is required, whereas the yellow indication treats it more like a yield situation (which is exactly the case). The MUTCD has no provisions or definitions for a flashing green display.
3.) The meaning of traffic signal indication should be clear and easily understood without supplemental signs (even though that is not always the case), which is probably why the study did not study its effects. From what I've gleaned in the study, the intent of the PPLT display is not universally understood even with a supplemental sign--from what I've personally seen in Las Vegas, Reno, and other parts of Nevada (where a 5-section doghouse PPLT display is
always accompanied by the R10-12 sign), this is indeed the case.
Quote from: yanksfan6129 on March 13, 2009, 03:11:45 PM
I'm gonna half-take-back what I had said about NJ traffic signals earlier. In my town, just yesterday, they installed a new traffic signal that was in the PA style on PennDotFan's old avatar: you know, the top being a light and then two side by side two thingies. And since I've been looking the past few days around NJ for 'em, I've seen that about 30% are that style and the others are all the "inline four" style.
I assume you're referring to the dog house type signal. I'm shocked if you say one was recently installed locally. NJ played with dog houses ever so briefly, but I can't recall a new one installed since the early 90s. In some cases, they were removed and replaced with the inline 4's that NJ likes to use. The 4th arrow section incorporates both the green and yellow arrows.
Also, speaking of NJ, protected lefts almost exclusively use a red arrow. The only example I can think of that has a red ball for the turn signal is right in my home town. It's an old 3M programable visibility signal and does use green and yellow arrows. Its redundant partner uses a red arrow and is a standard signal (not 3M PV).
I have a photo of some Jersey doghouses on US 9W in Fort Lee, NJ on my Picasa albums.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewJerseyTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5289509718191434610 (http://picasaweb.google.com/Iansignal/NewJerseyTrafficSignalsAndRoadSigns#5289509718191434610)
Ian
Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.
There are a few intersections in Florida and Alabama where red arrows are used for right-hand turns, and drivers come to a stop and then proceed when its clear. When red arrows are used in Delaware for right-hand turns, they prohibit any movement until the next green phase. That should be the same everywhere correct?
Quote from: AARoads on May 26, 2009, 08:05:04 PM
Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.
There are a few intersections in Florida and Alabama where red arrows are used for right-hand turns, and drivers come to a stop and then proceed when its clear. When red arrows are used in Delaware for right-hand turns, they prohibit any movement until the next green phase. That should be the same everywhere correct?
I just looked this up in the Florida Driver's Official Handbook (2009) and you can turn right on a red arrow after coming to a full, complete stop. Sorry to burst your bubble, bro :(
Quote from: AARoads on May 26, 2009, 08:05:04 PM
Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.
In Michigan, the arrows simply have the same meaning as their corresponding circular indications; they just apply to traffic moving in that direction. See paragraph (1) here (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(g43ovzanuvrpb445ynpyna45))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-257-612&query=on&highlight=red%20AND%20arrow).
Quote from: AARoads on May 26, 2009, 08:05:04 PM
Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.
There are a few intersections in Florida and Alabama where red arrows are used for right-hand turns, and drivers come to a stop and then proceed when its clear. When red arrows are used in Delaware for right-hand turns, they prohibit any movement until the next green phase. That should be the same everywhere correct?
In VA its not specified in the code but Froggie and I debated about this in another thread after Petersburg handed out tickets to those that made a right turn on a red from Wagner Rd onto US 301 NB. Since then the red arrow has been replaced with a red ball with a "NO TURN ON RED" sign added.
Well two instances in Delaware where right red arrows are, both prohibiting right-hand turns during the red phase:
In Newark, apparently a city councilman had issues with traffic movements in his area, and mandated that a red arrow be placed for eastbound Delaware 273 at Casho Mill Road (https://www.aaroads.com/delaware/delaware200/de-273_eb_at_casho_mill_road.jpg) (at least that's what a friend mentioned to me many years ago).
There is another on Harvey Road eastbound at U.S. 13 Business (Philadelphia Pike) as well. It's red arrow only illuminates at certain times.
If the arrow varies from state to state, how are drivers supposed to know whether or not it is legal to turn? Sit there and hope that someone does not blow their horn at you while waiting for the green phase, or just chance it and go?
It was in the Highway Oddities (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=82.125) thread a few weeks ago.
Basically, it depends on the state. And unless someone specifically looks up a given state's laws on the subject, they're not going to know whether or not it's legal.
There are 9 states (including DC and PR) that specifically prohibit right turn on red arrow. On the flip side, there are 9 other states that specifically allow it. The other states apparently don't have language regarding red arrows, although since you mention Delaware, I looked them up and while they don't mention red right arrows outright, the language suggests no-turn-on-red on them.
On the right turn against a red arrow subject:
I asked an associate of mine, who's a Georgia police officer, and he said that it's legal to turn right against a red right turn arrow. There's one on Convention Center Concourse North @ S.R. 6 East (Atlanta Airport/I-85). I contacted GDOT and was told the same thing.
There needs to be a unified law for this, not being varied from state-to-state like it is now.
Be well,
Bryant
^^ Yeah, a unified standard would be prudent.
I read info on the right turn on red arrow from that site awhile back, which made me inquire to my cop associate and GDOT about this issue. So, I don't know. It's just confusing. :confused:
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: froggie on May 27, 2009, 06:37:17 AM
And the simplest solution, IMO: if the right turn isn't allowed on red, then post a "No Turn On Red" sign, even if it's a red arrow.
I agree completely with that. With the use of a red arrow as well as a sign there is no excuse for misinterpereting its meaning. However, I personally would interperet a red right arrow as no turn on red without signage. But I do acknowledge the fact that there are a lot of brain dead and licensed (apparently) people on the road.
Quote from: AARoads on May 26, 2009, 08:05:04 PM
Do red arrows always mean no-turn on red? Is that written in the federal MUTCD? To my knowledge, it is the case, but others I know believe otherwise.
It is indeed written in the MUTCD in the standard of Section 4D.04 (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2003r1r2/part4/part4d.htm#section4D04)
Quote from: MUTCD Section 4D.04
C. Steady red signal indications shall have the following meanings:
2. Vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line (...) and shall remain stopped until a signal indication permitting the movement indicated by such RED ARROW is shown.
When an R10-17a sign (see Section 2B.45) (a "Right on Red Arrow After Stop" sign) is in place permitting a turn on a RED ARROW signal indication, vehicular traffic facing a RED ARROW signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to turn right, or to turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street, after stopping. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
So the national standard clearly indicates no turn on a red arrow, unless a sign permits it. That said, some states (through their own state MUTCD and/or state laws) have regulations which are not compliant with this standard.
In my opinion, the implementation of a right-facing red arrow should have a valid reason (protected adjacent pedestrian phase, unsafe sight distance, protected right turn phase, etc.). If the right turn can be made safely on red, a circular red indication should be used instead. This is in the interest of national uniformity, and better protects the meaning of the red arrow. </small soapbox>
So is Virginia one of those 18 states that have legislation on it?