Throughout Davenport, school speed limits are always 25 (normal speed limit between 30 and 35), and they appear in front of every elementary, middle, and (most recently) high school. Every sign reads "School Speed Limit 25 On School Days 7:00 AM-5:00 PM." (2-3 years ago they read "On School Days when Children are Present")
I particularly hate this because kids are usually outside of school 1 out of those 8 hours every day, and I rarely see kids out as early as 7 or as late as 5. Another annoying thing is that they're particularly long in distance (the two I go through on the way to school are about a quarter mile and almost a whole mile).
What are they like in other cities, and what are your opinions on them?
Around here it's always 25 (though I've seen as high as 35 in Virginia, that being on US-29 near Madison where the normal speed limit is 55). Virginia usually uses the "school zone speed limit when flashing" signs that have the two yellow lights and the lower limit applies only when those lights are flashing. I like it better than all-day limits (overkill) or the signs that make you read the hours when it applies (usually too much info to read in type too small to discern at a glance). The flashing-lights system is easy to tell at a glance.
Regardless of the speed limit, I'm always cautious near elementary schools because the little kids have no sense for traffic safety. I wouldn't want to be the guy who hits and hurts or kills some little kid.
Flashing lights almost exclusively here and usually 15mph. They don't often put school zones on major highways or arterials.
It's a bit excessive to make the restriction all day.
Oregon is 20 MPH. California is 25 MPH. Somehow the extra 5 MPH in California doesn't result in massive carnage for the children. Oregon's limit is too low in school zones. 65 MPH freeway speed limits are also 5 MPH too slow at a minimum. Come to Oregon if you want to slow down...LOL!
Rick
Ohio is always 20 MPH. The standard sign states that the speed limit is in effect "during restricted hours". Flashing lights are added if and when the school district can afford it.
What if any school is next to a freeway?
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 06, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
What if any school is next to a freeway?
If you're referring to my comment about a 55-mph road, Madison High School in Madison, VA, is on US-29, although it's not truly a "freeway." Traffic does tend to move at around 65 mph, though.
I can think of a freeway that cuts through a school's property (US-15/501 cuts through land owned by Duke University), but I wouldn't count that since I doubt it's unusual and since universities don't count as "schools" in the same sense of needing special treatment.
Why I'm responding to you is a better question.
All of the school speed limits around Philly are set at around 15 m.p.h. on most if not all roads.
It's usually 20mph here in Illinois. Having them for elementary schools is fine, but for high schools, seriously!?! :confused: Some of those young adults/adolescents drive (they're not children - never thought of myself that way when I was that age) for pete's sake.
In NY it's usually 15-20mph during "school days" (guess you have to figure out when school's in session yourself).
Quote from: Brandon on October 06, 2011, 08:23:01 PM
It's usually 20mph here in Illinois. Having them for elementary schools is fine, but for high schools, seriously!?! :confused: Some of those young adults/adolescents drive (they're not children - never thought of myself that way when I was that age) for pete's sake.
Especially when newer high schools are usually built far enough away from the road so students can't walk to McDonalds for lunch. In Michigan, it depends on the road. One road I know of has a school speed limit of 40 only when flashing (regular is 55).
Quote from: Brandon on October 06, 2011, 08:23:01 PM
It's usually 20mph here in Illinois. Having them for elementary schools is fine, but for high schools, seriously!?! :confused: Some of those young adults/adolescents drive (they're not children - never thought of myself that way when I was that age) for pete's sake.
My thoughts exactly. They were put in a few weeks ago in front of my high school, but there hasn't been a problem in the past about it.
I have seen a school zone in Kansas with a speed reduction to... 45mph from 55mph. What the hell did they just accomplish by signing that? It is a rural area with probably everyone taking the bus or having their parents drive them. What is the point there exactly?
southern door highschool (and i believe middle school) is on the old WIS 57 (now frontage road to new WIS 57 expressway) has a 40 or 45mph school zone in the 55mph zone
Quote from: Zmapper on October 07, 2011, 09:36:40 PM
I have seen a school zone in Kansas with a speed reduction to... 45mph from 55mph. What the hell did they just accomplish by signing that? It is a rural area with probably everyone taking the bus or having their parents drive them. What is the point there exactly?
This condition existed on US 33 near Richmond, VA, in front of Glen Allen High School during the 2010-11 school year. The school zone speed limit was reduced to 35mph for no apparent reason for the 2011-12 school year.
Of course, this has created conditions that are more dangerous than they were before, because people will be cruising at 55 or 60 (the speed limit is 55mph). Then they hit the school zone and come to a nearly dead stop. I nearly rear-ended someone the other day going through this school zone. Didn't help that Henrico County was aggressively enforcing this particular school zone, as I saw no less than four motorcycle cops patrolling this zone, including one that had just pulled someone over. This is a pretty busy commuting corridor, and those lights are flashing as late as 4:30pm...
When I lived in NE Ohio, a lot of the municipalities really overdid the school safety issues. Many intersections still post "NO TURN ON RED -- x:xx AM-x:xx PM SCHOOL DAYS" signs, despite being well outside of school zones, and despite their being pedestrian-activated crosswalk buttons and WALK/DON'T WALK signs at the intersection, and despite there being crossing guards on duty at many of the closest intersections near the school when kids are actually crossing the intersection.
What sucks about those signs is that 90% of the school day kids will be nowhere near the intersection and you'll have those idiot drivers who will sit there in the middle of summer, at night, or on a major holiday (Christmas/Thanksgiving) refusing to turn right on red fearing that school might be in session, or not reading the entire sign.
Another beef I had with the Ohio zones at the time (at least in the NE Ohio area) is that many of those zones were not wired with brains -- that is they were wired to turn on & off on with an old timer mechanism. What this meant is that many municipalities would have them turn on and off every Monday-Friday during the school year, yet would not override the system on holidays or extended non-summer vacations so as to not have the zones on when school was not. And again, you'd have the idiot drivers who would drive the 20 through every school zone on Thanksgiving. Even worse were the school zones that would have power outages, and it would take them a few days (if not a few weeks) to reset the timers to mesh with the actual school hours.
I love the districts & municipalities that spend the extra $$$ on smart timers that only turn on the flashers when school is really in session and only at the proper times!!!
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 06, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
What if any school is next to a freeway?
A freeway has full control of access. The school has no access to the freeway, therefore no school zone. :banghead:
Quote from: roadfro on October 09, 2011, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 06, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
What if any school is next to a freeway?
A freeway has full control of access. The school has no access to the freeway, therefore no
school zone. :banghead:
What about the speed limit?
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 09, 2011, 10:07:36 AM
Quote from: roadfro on October 09, 2011, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 06, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
What if any school is next to a freeway?
A freeway has full control of access. The school has no access to the freeway, therefore no
school zone. :banghead:
What about the speed limit?
What about it? Pedestrians probably aren't going to be on the ROW anyway (indeed many freeways outright prohibit pedestrians), so why would it need to be lowered?
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 09, 2011, 10:28:47 AM
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 09, 2011, 10:07:36 AM
Quote from: roadfro on October 09, 2011, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 06, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
What if any school is next to a freeway?
A freeway has full control of access. The school has no access to the freeway, therefore no
school zone. :banghead:
What about the speed limit?
What about it? Pedestrians probably aren't going to be on the ROW anyway (indeed many
freeways outright prohibit pedestrians), so why would it need to be lowered?
Because kids don't learn anything when drivers on the freeway are too fast.
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 09, 2011, 10:58:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 09, 2011, 10:28:47 AM
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 09, 2011, 10:07:36 AM
Quote from: roadfro on October 09, 2011, 09:20:16 AM
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 06, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
What if any school is next to a freeway?
A freeway has full control of access. The school has no access to the freeway, therefore no
school zone. :banghead:
What about the speed limit?
What about it? Pedestrians probably aren't going to be on the ROW anyway (indeed many
freeways outright prohibit pedestrians), so why would it need to be lowered?
Because kids don't learn anything when drivers on the freeway are too fast.
Do they not put fences between the freeway and adjoining property in Virginia?
Quote from: ethanman62187 on October 09, 2011, 10:58:35 AM
Because kids don't learn anything when drivers on the freeway are too fast.
:banghead: :banghead: Do you realize you're not making any sense?
School zones in the Boise Metro area are very clearly marked with flashing lights that are set at either end of the school zone. This clearly marks the beginning and ending of the school zone, and the times when the special speed limit (and the higher fine) applies. The speed limit is typically 20 MPH even on busy arterials such as Broadway Ave, Cole Road and Fairview Ave. Here in Indianoplace (jk) it is anyones guess when school speeds apply or where the school zones end.
Arizona school zones (K-8 Only) with Rollaway Signs on all roads is 15mph No passing Zone and Double Fines.
There are some exceptions that are permanently signed with flashing lights on Major Streets marked 35mph or 25mph.
Hours for all is 7am to 4pm School Days
School Zones do not apply for high schools
Quote from: Indyroads on December 19, 2011, 05:12:19 PM
School zones in the Boise Metro area are very clearly marked with flashing lights that are set at either end of the school zone. This clearly marks the beginning and ending of the school zone, and the times when the special speed limit (and the higher fine) applies. The speed limit is typically 20 MPH even on busy arterials such as Broadway Ave, Cole Road and Fairview Ave. Here in Indianoplace (jk) it is anyones guess when school speeds apply or where the school zones end.
I hate school zones around Indianapolis. Most of them are all day school zones from 7-430. Worst of all is Carmel where they go from 7-7. I didn't know the schools had 12 hour days....
Here's an "Only in California" oddity about school zone speed limits. The limits are generally 25 MPH although some cities are thinking about lowering them to 15 or 20 MPH. The quirk here in California is the school zone speed limit applies "When Children are Present". That phrase has been interpreted to mean whenever you see a kid, the limit is 25 MPH. Doesn't matter if it's 9 AM, 3 PM, 10 PM or 2 AM or a weekday or on the weekend... if there's a kid, the limit is 25 MPH!
Quote from: myosh_tino on December 20, 2011, 04:46:09 AM
Here's an "Only in California" oddity about school zone speed limits. The limits are generally 25 MPH although some cities are thinking about lowering them to 15 or 20 MPH. The quirk here in California is the school zone speed limit applies "When Children are Present". That phrase has been interpreted to mean whenever you see a kid, the limit is 25 MPH. Doesn't matter if it's 9 AM, 3 PM, 10 PM or 2 AM or a weekday or on the weekend... if there's a kid, the limit is 25 MPH!
Hm, I thought "When Children are Present" was the general rule for at least the West Coast states. Well, as far as California, Oregon and Washington goes. I recall it was only fairly recent (as in the past decade or so) when school speed limits were on a time schedule, and that was only for a few select school zones last time I was living in the Portland area. Some reverted back to "When Children are Present", leading me to conclude that it was experimental then.
Going back to Indiana, I know there are some areas where the term "When Children are Present" are applied and others where the hours are applied, such as Indy and Hamilton County. To me, the "When Children are Present" gives me more of an incentive to slow down. The children are the reason we are slowing down in the first place and one should be a bit slower when they are around, anywhere. There ought to be a far greater likeihood that you will see children going down their neighborhood streets over the majority of the week than inside some brick building that your car likely won't be penitrating (and if it you did hit the school with your car the fact that you were going above the school zone speed limit is probably the least of your problems.) It shouldn't matter whether on not you are going by a school or just down a neighborhood street, if you see children, slow down. When the hours are posted instead, to me, it means that you are slowing down because of the existance of a building. It's more about the structure you are passing and not the people in that structure and it shouldn't be about that at all.
Quote from: tdindy88 on December 20, 2011, 12:23:56 PM
...to me, it means that you are slowing down because of the existance of a building. It's more about the structure you are passing and not the people in that structure and it shouldn't be about that at all.
It's not about the kids
in the building. It's about the significant bursts of kid traffic
around the building (and along adjacent roads) that occur at least twice per day. Which is why my complaint is not with the temporal extent* of the school zone, but the geographical extent. The school zone should cover streets that are known to have heavy student pedestrian traffic, rather than every road adjacent to school property out to some arbitrary, fixed distance.
*Actually, I would have a complaint about the temporal extent too, if it runs all day (when kids aren't coming or going).
I've seen School Speed Limits in Florida that are as high as 50 MPH. In New York, 15 to 20 MPH is far more common.
I seem to recall seeing a School Zone 55 MPH somewhere near Auxvasse, Missouri, on US-54, but I can't locate the sign on a cursory check of GMSV. Maybe it's changed, or maybe I just don't know where to look.
My favorite school zone limits are the ones that say "When Flashing", yet the lights flash on days there's no school. To be fair, I've never seen a cop sitting there clocking people in a situations like that. But really, what if one's driving behind me? Is it OK to not slow down? Here in Wichita, Woodlawn Blvd between K-96 and 21st Street (four-lane arterial street) has a short school zone. I have NEVER, not once, seen a child walking to or from school there. Grrrr......
"When Children Are Present" sounds to me like a prime opportunity for some small town to cash in. Pay little Billy $5 to play with his dog on the school lawn at 4PM on a Saturday...
For Pennsylvania it is 15 miles per hour regaurdless what the speed limit is around the location of the school. In accordance with Publication 212, Offical Traffic Control Devices.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 20, 2011, 01:19:11 PM
I've seen School Speed Limits in Florida that are as high as 50 MPH. In New York, 15 to 20 MPH is far more common.
In Broward County and Miami-Dade County, 15 mph is universal. In Palm Beach County, 20 mph is common.
In OK, 25 seems to be the standard, though you'll see occasionally see an odd 20.
There are a few places in Western Colorado where the regular speed limit is 45 MPH and the school zone limit is also at 45 MPH, as well as at least one 35/35 roads. Sounds a little outlandish, but when you say that fines are doubled in the school zones, then it has some bite to it.
Quote from: xcellntbuy on December 21, 2011, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 20, 2011, 01:19:11 PM
I've seen School Speed Limits in Florida that are as high as 50 MPH. In New York, 15 to 20 MPH is far more common.
In Broward County and Miami-Dade County, 15 mph is universal. In Palm Beach County, 20 mph is common.
Well, Moon Lake Road (Pasco County Road 587), east of New Port Richey used to have a 50 MPH school zone until sometime within the past decade.
i might have mentioned it earlier, but there is a 45mph school zone on the frontage road going past southern door highschool in door county wisconsin.
In WV, it is 15 for any two lane road and 35 for any four lane road (except, of course, for fully access controled roads such as interstates). Standard signage is "When Children are Present" or a school can get a flashing yellow light hooked up to a timer (only would be on during the morning and afternoon, not the whole school day). Such signage is a "joint venture" between the state DOH and the county school board (or the private school's management) with each paying half and the deal hooked up to the school's electricty and them running the timer.
Its really kind of pointless in 95% of the applications. WV is rural and virtally all schools are set back from the road, seperated from the road by a fence, and have 100% of the students arriving by bus (or at least eligiable to do so, but being dropped off by a parent). Even urban schools are now deals where kids are bused to a rural area for a closed campus environment. I would safely say that 0.5% of students walk to school.
Around here, the "when children are present" usage is dwindling. Government likes to make things simple for LEOs and drivers by leaving no gray areas.
Brendan
In Massachusetts it's 20MPH per state law, and believe it or not, unless there's a "during school hours" sign along with it, the 20MPH limit is technically enforceable even in the middle of the night or during the summer.
Quote from: Brendan on December 30, 2011, 08:07:07 PM
Around here, the "when children are present" usage is dwindling. Government likes to make things simple for LEOs and drivers by leaving no gray areas.
Brendan
...which explains why the signs in Davenport (and other areas as well) have been changed from "when children are present" to a certain time window. It all makes sense now.
A couple of years ago I saw a school sign in Mt. Pleasant, MI that had three time windows during which school limits applied.
Quote from: pianocello on December 31, 2011, 03:58:40 PM
Quote from: Brendan on December 30, 2011, 08:07:07 PM
Around here, the "when children are present" usage is dwindling. Government likes to make things simple for LEOs and drivers by leaving no gray areas.
...which explains why the signs in Davenport (and other areas as well) have been changed from "when children are present" to a certain time window. It all makes sense now.
Interesting. The current trend in the Las Vegas area is moving away from time windows towards "When Children are Present". Especially in cases where there were formerly two or three time windows listed on the sign. Although, the bigger trend is to move away from time windows or "WCAP" signage on arterial streets and install flashers and "when flashing" school zone signs wherever possible.
Oregon's going the other way, from "When Children Are Present" to time periods or "When Lights Are Flashing." But the time period is just 7-5, and I think that's the way to go -- just keep it simple.
In Mississippi school zone speed limits are 10MPH lower than whatever the speed limit already is. School zones on full speed stretches of divided highways are 55 since the speed limits are 65 on divided highways. Is it not like this in every state? or are we just referring to school zones inside cities?
Quote from: DollarBill on January 13, 2012, 01:40:48 PM
In Mississippi school zone speed limits are 10MPH lower than whatever the speed limit already is. School zones on full speed stretches of divided highways are 55 since the speed limits are 65 on divided highways. Is it not like this in every state? or are we just referring to school zones inside cities?
On the first page of this thread I mentioned a school zone near Madison, Virginia, where the speed limit drops from 55 to 35 during the relevant hours. Madison is by no means a city and US-29 is a four-lane divided highway through there. So I guess the answer to both of your questions is "No."
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 13, 2012, 02:19:59 PM
Quote from: DollarBill on January 13, 2012, 01:40:48 PM
In Mississippi school zone speed limits are 10MPH lower than whatever the speed limit already is. School zones on full speed stretches of divided highways are 55 since the speed limits are 65 on divided highways. Is it not like this in every state? or are we just referring to school zones inside cities?
On the first page of this thread I mentioned a school zone near Madison, Virginia, where the speed limit drops from 55 to 35 during the relevant hours. Madison is by no means a city and US-29 is a four-lane divided highway through there. So I guess the answer to both of your questions is "No."
In Virginia it may be decided by the local jurisdiction. Case in point: in Colonial Heights, the school zone speed limit is always 25, even when the road is normally 25 anyway. In Dinwiddie County I know of at least two situations like 1995hoo described, where a 55 drops to 35 at the relevent times.
It varies in Louisiana.
Most school zones are 25 mph. It's 20 mph in Baton Rouge and New Orleans. Some side streets are 15 mph. I've seen them as high as 45 mph in the country.
Somewhere down south, I was on a 55 that dropped to 15 through a school zone. School was letting out. I actually had to crawl for 1/4 mile and then resume cruising at 64.
A couple comments from CNY:
Within the past 5 years or so, Auburn has reconstructed the major streets in the city During the reconstruction, they installed flashing lights in the school zones (formerly just signs with "Speed Limit 20/8 AM-3PM") which I like because they're "smart". They're on from 8 AM to 3 PM, and are even programmed to not flash on something as small as a 3 day weekend for the school.
The high school on Lake Ave (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=42.910439,-76.552573&spn=0.004361,0.010568&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=42.910455,-76.552416&panoid=18AoQfp_l59P6eJKNxt5zQ&cbp=12,123.27,,0,11.15) has no speed zone at all, and it's normally 30 MPH southbound/40 MPH northbound (I don't know why there's two different speed limits; the 40 is closer to the school building, and the 30 jumps to 40 for about 1000 feet until a traffic circle).
This summer, the city installed "End School Zone" signs. I assumed this was to comply with the 2009 MUTCD, but never looked until just now. My assumption was correct.
Within the past year, school speed limit signs have been installed on NY 326, just west of Auburn for BOCES, a vocational school for juniors and seniors. The BOCES was built in 2007, so I don't know why they waited this long. That stretch drops from 55 to 40 for about a half mile, but the 55 segment is so short anyway (6/10 mile between a 50 MPH zone [which seems hind of pointless, why not 55?] and a four-way stop), that it seems pointless to get to 55 MPH. Here's (http://maps.google.com/?ll=42.916332,-76.616378&spn=0.008784,0.021136&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=42.916335,-76.616233&panoid=MPevwRUPa0BbDxaJOE7gYQ&cbp=12,4.52,,0,10.86) a link to Street View of the BOCES (the speed limit signs weren't there when it was taken).
In Cato, there's a 35 MPH zone (normally 45) with times (I don't know the hours), along NY 370. (elementary school Street View (http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.169286,-76.545997&spn=0.008748,0.021136&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=43.169406,-76.546247&panoid=NjuxUOX3LWEl-2KwBpTXzg&cbp=12,335.6,,0,5.3), middle/high school Street View (http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.173501,-76.552087&spn=0.008748,0.021136&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=43.173501,-76.552087&panoid=JNLtqtFQQucOwSii3Y8Gzw&cbp=12,68.53,,0,3.2)) There's a curve just west of the middle/high school that I'd recommend taking at 35-40 anyway (no advisory speed).
Weedsport Jr/Sr High (middle/high school) has a 20 MPH zone, but is quite far from the road (Street View (http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.047409,-76.554719&spn=0.004383,0.010568&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=43.047338,-76.554361&panoid=Q22je7G9EfxFZYqhiSN5uQ&cbp=12,1.73,,0,4.66)) I think it's just a speed limit sign with no times. An interesting note about this area is that the school entrance is literally on the village line, so this is normally a 55 to 30 reduction. The 55 zone is on the right in Street View.
Side note: The speed reduction for westbound traffic is about 360 feet to the east of the school entrance, but the end of the 30 zone for eastbound traffic is about 1000 feet (not a typo) east.
At Richard Bland College near Petersburg, the speed limit within the school zone is 25. The school zone is the boundaries of the college property from before the dorms were added in 2008. On Johnson Road, the north-south road that passes through the property, the speed limit is normally 45, and the college boundaries expand well north and south of the buildings and parking lots due to two large groves on its east side, so nobody really abided it until they got to the parking lots and crosswalks. The dorms are on Carson Drive, the road that is used to access the college from the west, and are just west of the school zone in a short 35 MPH section.
Quote from: Takumi on January 15, 2012, 06:40:49 PM
At Richard Bland College near Petersburg, the speed limit within the school zone is 25.
I have never heard of a state that includes Colleges or Universities with K-12 schools for the category of School Zone!!!
The most useless school speed limit I ever saw was at a boarding school. The kids are driven by parents from far away and the amount of children walking to nearby locations is very little.
Quote from: thenetwork on January 16, 2012, 01:25:35 AM
Quote from: Takumi on January 15, 2012, 06:40:49 PM
At Richard Bland College near Petersburg, the speed limit within the school zone is 25.
I have never heard of a state that includes Colleges or Universities with K-12 schools for the category of School Zone!!!
The reason is that the roads going through the college have several crosswalks across them, and during daytime classes they're heavily used.
Quote from: thenetwork on January 16, 2012, 01:25:35 AM
Quote from: Takumi on January 15, 2012, 06:40:49 PM
At Richard Bland College near Petersburg, the speed limit within the school zone is 25.
I have never heard of a state that includes Colleges or Universities with K-12 schools for the category of School Zone!!!
Richard Bland is also a community college, and it's a very open campus (the road quite literally runs through the center of the campus), so school zones/reduced speed limits are absolutely necessary. I believe Johnson Road (the road that bisects the campus and has several crosswalks) is a 2-lane road and has a 55 mph speed limit otherwise.
You're partially right. It has a 55 MPH speed limit in Prince George, but it drops to 45 at the county line just south of the campus and stays that way until it reaches Petersburg city limits. (Also, it's a junior college, which is slightly different from a community college, but I digress.)
Figured this was a worthy topic for re-discussion (but not a new thread), as it was on CNN this morning. I suppose it was brought to their attention from The Oakland Press (http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/02/15/news/doc4f3a9b01c0115536425773.txt) in Michigan.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.jalopnik.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F12%2F2012%2F02%2F12a07ff1c7174191fa87c9485504d7ba.jpg&hash=95b5005a562f0b383d36d2bd082a19da4d5aa5bb)
Jalopnik said it best: This is the Worst School Zone in History. (http://jalopnik.com/5885626/this-is-the-worst-school-zone-sign-in-history)
(waits for an "At Least It's Not Clearview" comment...)
That sign is a perfect example of why I prefer the style used around my area with the two yellow lights and the notation that the reduced limit applies only when the lights are flashing.
At least it's...naw, just kidding. But I saw this too and found a follow-up article from the Pontiac, Michigan newspaper that had reported this, the times have been simplified. It's now just 6:49 to 9:07 in the morning and 2:03 to 4:29 in the afternoon. I wonder why such the random times, does the school district want me to be looking at the clock in my car instead of the kids? And better yet, do kids really wait until 6:49 to line the roads around this school and not at 6:48?
Here's the article: http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/02/16/news/local_news/doc4f3d4a6816921091129912.txt
And who says everyone's clocks, watches, cell phones, etc are all synchronized? I may have 6:47 in my car and the cop watching traffic has 6:50. I find these times that are down to the exact minute as a way to boost ticket revenue.
[This post, and others after it, were split from the "Worst of Road Signs" thread, referring to the same sign discussed above. -S.]
That's why I've always preferred "When children are present". That way you don't need to carry a school district calendar around with you.
In NYC, school days include those where the faculty, but not the students, are in attendance. That's more for parking purposes than for speed zones, however.
Kentucky signs its school speed zones with flashing yellow lights. The limit is in effect only when the lights are flashing.
Tennessee does both. Most get lights but in lower traffic areas (read rural roads) the "When Children are Present" sign is used instead.
Ohio (from what I've seen, at least) tends to use "during restricted hours" instead of "when children are present." It's annoyingly vague.
Quote from: Central Avenue on February 18, 2012, 10:12:47 AM
Ohio (from what I've seen, at least) tends to use "during restricted hours" instead of "when children are present." It's annoyingly vague.
All the better to issue speeding tickets with! Vague enough for a good speed cop to massage 'restricted hours' in his favor....
I've never understood why any state would use anything other than flashing lights. They catch drivers' attention AND are entirely unambiguous. Just so much simpler, especially for drivers who aren't from around the area and thus don't know about local schools.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 20, 2012, 12:34:09 PM
I've never understood why any state would use anything other than flashing lights. They catch drivers' attention AND are entirely unambiguous. Just so much simpler, especially for drivers who aren't from around the area and thus don't know about local schools.
Probably cost, and in those cases where schools themselves are required to contribute to that cost, their reluctance to do so.
On a related note, how does the sign know when to flash? Does it have a pre-programmed school calendar in it? If so, how accurate can we expect it to be, given the changeability of school calendars through the year and from building to building, district to district? Or does the janitor just flip it on and off each morning and afternoon? :D
The ones I've seen run on a timer of some sort and only on Monday-Friday, but there is no regard for holidays or school break.
Still, it's better than nothing.
^^^
Hopefully, new ones can be equipped with calendars. But, they'd still need some kind of data link to know about snow days and other unplanned changes in schedule.
there i$ absolutely no incentive for the municipality to make exception$ for $ummer, weekend$, holiday$, $now day$, etc.
The point i$ taken. :banghead:
The flashing school zones around here usually seem to be aware of scheduled breaks and holidays. On snow days, they'll still flash, but if it's snowy enough to close school then maybe you shouldn't be going much faster than 20MPH anyway.
It seems the school districts do indeed pay for the flashers. Some of Hilliard's newer schools didn't have them until the district could afford them (a lag of a couple of years).
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 20, 2012, 12:34:09 PM
I've never understood why any state would use anything other than flashing lights. They catch drivers' attention AND are entirely unambiguous. Just so much simpler, especially for drivers who aren't from around the area and thus don't know about local schools.
Static signs are far cheaper to install and are less of a maintenance issue. Fairly common practice in urban areas of Nevada is to use flashing beacons for school zones on arterial roads and major collector streets, but use static signs only with specific times (or, in the Las Vegas area, "When Children are Present" message) on minor collectors and neighborhood streets.
Quote from: empirestate on February 20, 2012, 12:39:29 PM
On a related note, how does the sign know when to flash? Does it have a pre-programmed school calendar in it? If so, how accurate can we expect it to be, given the changeability of school calendars through the year and from building to building, district to district? Or does the janitor just flip it on and off each morning and afternoon? :D
Newer flashing beacons operate on a pre-programmed calendar. Some I've seen in Nevada are programmed specifically enough such that the beacon will not flash on staff development days (school days where students have the day off but teachers are present for in-service sessions). Some can even be controlled or programmed remotely.
Nice! Although the existence of such technology is decidedly ho-hum (this being 2012 and all), the fact that it actually got selected and installed by some bureaucracy is pretty darned exceptional!
(I'm from the interior Northeast, where circumspection and municipal foresight pretty well died out in the early 70s, shortly after it pretty well gutted our major cities, for those of you incredulous at my incredulity...)
There's a school zone about a half-mile from my house, and it occasionally blinks on those studentless teacher-planning days (my wife's a teacher, that's how I know). I honestly can't say I've seen cops in my area bait anyone on those days, but sometimes that's because the planning days shift due to hurricane warnings.
But there's plenty of unsignaled school zone signs, usually for private schools or very tiny school zones (one block long). Typically, they use overhead signs, and warnings for "school days" as well. Some of them do have a split-shift of four different times, others just have longer school zone periods...but nothing like that six-zone, to-the-very-minute nonsense.
Quote from: formulanone on February 21, 2012, 09:32:25 AM
...but nothing like that six-zone, to-the-very-minute nonsense.
Now wait a minute, what's nonsensical about stating times that don't happen to be divisible by 5 minutes? I'm sure, in the eyes of the law, if the sign said "7:45" it would mean 7:45 to the minute, no less exactly than if the sign said "7:47". I went to a high school whose class periods were 50 minutes long, staggered lunch periods were 30 minutes long – and breaks between them all were 4 minutes long, so the schedule was full of times not divisible by 5. My school was also starting to try staggered arrival and departure times and by now I'm sure they've got it down to a science.
So I'm sure the times listed on that sign are exactly the times the district expects a lot of student traffic. Sure, it probably takes a few minutes for that traffic to rise and fall, but the speed limit's effect cuts on and off in an instant (theoretically). Rounding to the nearest 5 minutes only artificially shifts the times away from reality for no real benefit. In my experience, it takes no more thought to answer "Is the current time between 7:42 and 8:06?" than "Is the current time between 7:40 and 8:05?". Most clocks display time with 1-minute precision, nearly all schedules are written with 1-minute precision (even if they are rouund numbers, there's no way to write them less precisely), so why round to a slightly lower precision?
So yeah, the sign had too much information – too many time ranges, not ranges that were too precise. Merging the morning ranges into one, and merging the afternoon ranges into one, would be a reasonable and sufficient fix. And isn't that what they did?
In short...Don't I have enough things to memorize? I would get an aneurysm, just combine the times together for morning and afternoon, and put something reasonable at :15-intervals.
Done.
Colorado nearly exclusively uses the flashing lights setup. I don't really know what time the school speed limits are in affect, though I do know that during lunch hour the flashing lights are on at the High School.
Quote from: formulanone on February 21, 2012, 06:23:17 PM
In short...Don't I have enough things to memorize? I would get an aneurysm, just combine the times together for morning and afternoon, and put something reasonable at :15-intervals.
Done.
Who has to memorize anything? Look at a clock, then look at the sign. While looking at the sign, determine if the current time is within any of the displayed ranges. Having only one or two ranges makes this process significantly easier. Using rounded-off times does not.
Quote from: vtk on February 22, 2012, 02:34:27 AM
Who has to memorize anything? Look at a clock, then look at the sign. While looking at the sign, determine if the current time is within any of the displayed ranges. Having only one or two ranges makes this process significantly easier. Using rounded-off times does not.
And I think we have a winner...as you've gone through the process described above, you've naturally had to slow down to a near crawl to figure it out, with the added bonus that you may have slowed down when you weren't legally required to.
However, some could make the argument that if there are children around that you don't want run over, it may not be the best idea to put up a crazily verbose sign for drivers to stare at, instead of at said children.
Obviously flashing lights is the best solution. I'm just saying, if you are going to put times on a sign, it doesn't make a difference whether they're rounded to the nearest "round" numbers or not.
Im my town, there is a daycare with a school zone in front of it. The signs say "Speed Limit 20 when children are present." I normally wouldn't have a problem with a school zone, but the signs for each direction of travel are literally 50 feet apart. Makes it kind of impossible to go 20 for only 50 feet. But I have yet to hear of anyone getting caught for speeding in it yet.