i was looking at planning studies and such on WISDOT plans and projects, and i came across this. http://www.dot.wi.gov/projects/d1/verona/index.htm i had put though to alternatives in upgrading US151 to a full freeway, since i knew that was the ultimate goal, and i thought that rather than have large resedetial buyups in the proposed interchange area, why dont they use the US14 coridor, and route US151 across to the Verona bypass, without any homes being destroyed. y-interchange at US14, diamond at fish hatchery road, partial-y interchange with current US151. any thoughts?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1110.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh454%2Fjordanah1%2Fhighway%2520renderings%2FnewUS14-US151corridor.jpg&hash=d827e9011ee6465466fb3e565efbb981dd41696d)
This idea makes alot of sense but if US 151 is ever given interstate status (like my wish of Future I-37) that would now have 5 turns instead of 3 by using 90 and 12. But it certainly is a better solution than what WDOT came up with.
I think some sort of connector between the US 18-151 Verona bypass and I-39-90 was already studied and eliminated. I think the reasoning behind that was that it was "too far out" among other things if I remember correctly. I think the routing studied would have been along the County M corridor. I don't know how much this idea would help, as all the traffic heading east would still be dumped on the beltline, and then the beltline/US 14/Park St. interchange would need to be upgraded after it was just redone.
Yeah, I read that study too. Such a highway wasn't going to take enough traffic off the Verona Rd/Beltline interchange to make much difference. In other words, you still need the improvements there whether or not you build a southern bypass. More: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/d1/verona/environment.htm#south
You would need Dane County to increase its population considerably before you'll see any form of outer-rim beltline highways take shape. The Beltline has room to widen at least two additional lanes each way east of Verona Rd before expansion would be cost-prohibitive. You might see an expressway along County M and WIS 138 between Verona and Stoughton, but it'll take about 20 years. And, we still have a northern freeway to build yet, which would likely relieve the pressure on the south Beltline for some time.
This also assumes no form of light rail or other transport, or more intensive development in downtown Madison take shape.
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 17, 2011, 01:46:03 PM
Yeah, I read that study too. Such a highway wasn't going to take enough traffic off the Verona Rd/Beltline interchange to make much difference. In other words, you still need the improvements there whether or not you build a southern bypass. More: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/d1/verona/environment.htm#south
You would need Dane County to increase its population considerably before you'll see any form of outer-rim beltline highways take shape. The Beltline has room to widen at least two additional lanes each way east of Verona Rd before expansion would be cost-prohibitive. You might see an expressway along County M and WIS 138 between Verona and Stoughton, but it'll take about 20 years. And, we still have a northern freeway to build yet, which would likely relieve the pressure on the south Beltline for some time.
This also assumes no form of light rail or other transport, or more intensive development in downtown Madison take shape.
the purpose of the rerouting of US151 to the US18 freeway, isnt for an outer beltline, im sorry if thats what i implied, it was simply to bypass the current beltline/US151 interchange, were there is no room to upgrade to freeway standards. the purpose is to use the the already higher capacity interchange.
The South Reliever study JREwing mentions goes one step further than Jordanah's ida and extends such a roadway all the way to I-39/90. Even with that extension to I-39/90, and as JREwing noted, such a route would not eliminate the need for improvements at the Verona Rd/Beltline interchange. The cost of the South Reliever also wouldn't be much less than the free-flow option at Verona Rd.
No amount of flowery 'transit' upgrades will help with Beltline traffic - hardly any of that traffic is going to or from downtown Madison. It MIGHT help with some of the downtown and UW area commuter traffic, but that's all. The main reason why the Beltline is so crowded? Lakes. There are no other usable through traffic corridors in the metro area.
Mike
Quote from: Jordanah1 on October 16, 2011, 11:55:27 AM
i was looking at planning studies and such on WISDOT plans and projects, and i came across this. http://www.dot.wi.gov/projects/d1/verona/index.htm i had put though to alternatives in upgrading US151 to a full freeway, since i knew that was the ultimate goal, and i thought that rather than have large resedetial buyups in the proposed interchange area, why dont they use the US14 coridor, and route US151 across to the Verona bypass, without any homes being destroyed. y-interchange at US14, diamond at fish hatchery road, partial-y interchange with current US151. any thoughts?
Outside some of the problems that others have pointed out, the maps you are using look a little out of date. Right now, you have this intersecting with Fish Hatchery Road just south of Lacy Road. There is a brand new business park right at that exact location. Even along County M a little further south, there has been rapid residential development that makes this routing problematic. Like a lot of things about US-151, it would have been a great idea...20 years ago.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 18, 2011, 10:32:55 AM
Quote from: Jordanah1 on October 16, 2011, 11:55:27 AM
i was looking at planning studies and such on WISDOT plans and projects, and i came across this. http://www.dot.wi.gov/projects/d1/verona/index.htm i had put though to alternatives in upgrading US151 to a full freeway, since i knew that was the ultimate goal, and i thought that rather than have large resedetial buyups in the proposed interchange area, why dont they use the US14 coridor, and route US151 across to the Verona bypass, without any homes being destroyed. y-interchange at US14, diamond at fish hatchery road, partial-y interchange with current US151. any thoughts?
Outside some of the problems that others have pointed out, the maps you are using look a little out of date. Right now, you have this intersecting with Fish Hatchery Road just south of Lacy Road. There is a brand new business park right at that exact location. Even along County M a little further south, there has been rapid residential development that makes this routing problematic. Like a lot of things about US-151, it would have been a great idea...20 years ago.
alright thanks, the image is from whatever the newest google earth image is. thanks for the info
Actually, I looked at it again and you placed it a little further south than I thought.. There is room there, but it is very tight. You probably couldn't put a diamond there, but you could certainly cross over Fish Hatchery.
Even if you did, you're still defeated by the recent reconstruction that demoted US 14 at US 12 to a diamond interchange.
It's on. Verona Road to be widened in 2018 & 2019:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/article_579345fe-05ac-11e1-acd6-001cc4c002e0.html
The first phase, the SPUI, is still on for construction starting in 2013 (the State Journal is slightly off on its dates, or WisDOT is slow to update its website).
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 02, 2011, 09:14:43 PM
It's on. Verona Road to be widened in 2018 & 2019:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/article_579345fe-05ac-11e1-acd6-001cc4c002e0.html
The first phase, the SPUI, is still on for construction starting in 2013 (the State Journal is slightly off on its dates, or WisDOT is slow to update its website).
And still no free-flow connection between the Beltline to the east and Verona Rd to the southwest (US 18/151 though movements)....
:banghead:
Mike
This study has now been moved to the "Projects" section on the WisDOT site and was recently given a logo:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprojects.511wi.gov%2Fimage%2Flayout_set_logo%3Fimg_id%3D34693%26amp%3Bt%3D1381216099274&hash=ce650dec95e86dce918e8b5ebfbcdd7c4bbfc60e)
100th post!
Hell, WisDOT even gave the project its own (human friendly) URL:
www.veronaroadproject.wi.gov
When a road is cut off by another road, resulting in 2 culdesac, is that "highway tubal ligation"?
Quote from: texaskdog on May 08, 2012, 05:49:37 PM
When a road is cut off by another road, resulting in 2 culdesac, is that "highway tubal ligation"?
When a section of a formerly through road is removed to convert it into two blunt dead ends, is that highway vasectomy?
(I did not make this up.) (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=college+ave+montclair+nj&hl=en&ll=40.857318,-74.200335&spn=0.000535,0.001167&sll=40.776192,-74.046698&sspn=0.274024,0.597382&t=h&z=20)
http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/DOT_Prepares_175_Madison_Road_Renovation_151971795.html
Here's a story from NBC 15 in Madison about the upcoming project. No really new info here though.
Also an article in the Wisconsin State Journal about the project. I noticed conflicting information between the two reports, however. The NBC 15 report states the Beltline will be windened to 6 lanes west to Gammon Rd, whle the State Journal and every other report I've heard say the 6 lanes will only extned to Whitney Way.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/huge-verona-road-project-to-be-renaissance-of-area/article_191a03c2-9fb6-11e1-9f75-0019bb2963f4.html
Quote from: tchafe1978 on May 17, 2012, 09:31:18 PMAlso an article in the Wisconsin State Journal about the project. I noticed conflicting information between the two reports, however. The NBC 15 report states the Beltline will be widened to 6 lanes west to Gammon Rd, while the State Journal and every other report I've heard say the 6 lanes will only extend to Whitney Way.
I noticed that too, however there is currently quite a bit of mystery construction occurring at the Gammon Rd interchange. It is not hard to imagine WisDOT deciding to add extra lanes to that point since the only real work would be in the median and posting new signs. As all the structures in the area where widened back in the very early 2000's. Personally, I would advocate adding an extra lane in each direction all the way to Old Sauk Rd. Letting the additional lanes stop at Whitney Way is short sighted as the area currently sees more then enough traffic for three lanes each direction.
My understanding is that WisDOT is lengthening the on and off-ramps at Gammon Rd. I wholeheartedly agree the 6-laning needs to be extended past Mineral Point Rd.
I'm a bit irritated at the recent high-voltage transmission lines going in on the Beltline that make it more difficult to go to 4 lanes each way between Verona Rd (US-18/151) and Stoughton Rd (US-51). Most are far enough away that you could guardrail around them without issue, but some of them are squeezed between the frontage road and the Beltline, and will have to be moved when WisDOT eventually widens.
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 18, 2012, 08:22:58 AM
My understanding is that WisDOT is lengthening the on and off-ramps at Gammon Rd. I wholeheartedly agree the 6-laning needs to be extended past Mineral Point Rd.
I'm a bit irritated at the recent high-voltage transmission lines going in on the Beltline that make it more difficult to go to 4 lanes each way between Verona Rd (US-18/151) and Stoughton Rd (US-51). Most are far enough away that you could guardrail around them without issue, but some of them are squeezed between the frontage road and the Beltline, and will have to be moved when WisDOT eventually widens.
WisDOT had to relocate a couple of 345 Kv power line towers (same voltage as is being built along the Beltline) with their US 45 freeway upgrade between US 10 and US 41, too.
Mike
They are going to have bigger problems then moving power lines when the Beltline widening comes up.
Certainly WisDOT in the 1950's never envisioned Madison being so large that the Beltline would require 4 lanes each way.
That will be tough considering the environment it goes through (condensed) - but if they can do it with 41 in Oshkosh...
Quote from: Master son on May 28, 2012, 02:08:06 PM
That will be tough considering the environment it goes through (condensed) - but if they can do it with 41 in Oshkosh...
US 41 in oshkosh is onnly being upgradded to 3 lanes, with a 4 lane lake butte des morts causeway, the whole corridor could however potentially could be 4lanes, of coarse its not needed, and all the new bridges would have to be replaced. but, the ROW should be wide enough...
The "Letters to the Editor" section in today's Wisconsin State Journal is full of people wondering why WisDOT hasn't begun serious planning for either a Southern and/or Northern Bypass of Madison. One or two of them where even wondering why the state is wasting so much time (next 30- 40 years) with Verona Rd instead of getting true a East-West bypass on the docket.
First post, Madison based road nut.
From my readings about a potential east/west corridor mostly mirroring CTH M from Verona, a new roadway would not make much of a dent in the Verona Rd traffic. The majority of that traffic is local with their ending destination being in the city core. That and the townships in the path of an east/west road are very much against it (and the potential sprawl).
WisDOT came out with a new brochure yesterday (3/25) outlining the projects staring this year and next. The Beltline is going to be even more of a cluster with the Verona Rd overpass out/ down to 2 lanes.
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/swregion/18151/docs/br-constructionevents.pdf
I'm glad my commute for the forseeable future won't involve the Beltline. Ugh!
Time to start finding an alternative route through the area for my trips to the Milwaukee area to visit the parents.
I live on the SW side of Madison and rarely take Verona Rd due to the traffic light sequencing and the amount of heavy trucks. Always get off the Beltline at Seminole. Not pleased that road will be shut down for a big chunk of time either. Gonna have to start taking US 14 more and cutting through Fitchburg on the way home from visiting family down in Janesville.
WisDOT just posted three new videos about the upcoming project. They can be viewed at www.VeronaRoadProject.wi.gov
Well if that assembly rep from Kaukauna gets his way, none of the CSD elements of this project will survive (too bad; the bridges look really nice). I swear the crazy cheapskates in this state are too much to handle at times...
It's funny that someone from another part of the state is trying to dictate what happens on Madison's roads. :|
OK, considering the free flow option was discarded early, I think WIDOT did a pretty good job with this. But Williamsburg Way has to be built as a half-diamond. Putting a traffic light there would be terrible.
Quote from: SSOWorld on April 04, 2013, 09:17:06 AM
It's funny that someone from another part of the state is trying to dictate what happens on Madison's roads. :|
Yeah. Especially now that the roads in his part of the state have been redone and look fantastic.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 04, 2013, 09:20:44 AM
OK, considering the free flow option was discarded early, I think WIDOT did a pretty good job with this. But Williamsburg Way has to be built as a half-diamond. Putting a traffic light there would be terrible.
Agreed. It would seem to be counter-productive to grade separate the remainder of the corridor only to have this intersection right in the middle have only a signal. If they're going to spend the money, they should do it right the first time.
WisDOT has been maintaining a Facebook page with lots of good construction photos of this season's SPUI construction and Verona Rd. rebuild: https://www.facebook.com/WIVeronaRoadProject
Also: http://www.veronaroadproject.wi.gov/
From WisDOT:
TRAFFIC PATTERN CHANGE: Take some time to learn about the upcoming traffic staging plans on Verona Road (US 18/151) from the Beltline to Raymond Road. By Friday morning (May 30), the east side of Atticus Way/Summit Road intersection will be temporarily shifted to the north, across from Britta Parkway, until July 2014.
Download, print, save and SHARE the Verona Road traffic staging plans for late May until July 2014.
http://bit.ly/VRstaging
Remember...
- Two lanes will remain open to traffic in each direction on Verona Road, between the Beltline and Raymond Road.
- Access remains open to area businesses and neighborhoods.
- Please be alert for crews working in the area and drive with caution in all work zones.
Stay connected with the project website, www.VeronaRoadProject.wi.gov, and sign up for project email updates.
Bumping up this thread.
Stage 2 of the Verona Road construction has been delayed by 2 years. This includes an interchange at Williamsburg Way, a SPUI at CTH PD / McKee Rd, and expanding the roadway to 3 lanes from Raymond Rd to McKee Rd.
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Verona-Road-construction-officially-delayed-DOT-says/35448262
Quote from: WarrenWallace on September 24, 2015, 01:11:07 PM
Bumping up this thread.
Stage 2 of the Verona Road construction has been delayed by 2 years. This includes an interchange at Williamsburg Way, a SPUI at CTH PD / McKee Rd, and expanding the roadway to 3 lanes from Raymond Rd to McKee Rd.
http://www.channel3000.com/news/Verona-Road-construction-officially-delayed-DOT-says/35448262
Geez, this is ridiculous. What the heck is going on? This and the I-39/90 rebuild/widen are critical projects that can't wait any longer.
2 words: Money and politics.
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Not to get political, but I no longer like Scott Walker. What exactly is he trying to accomplish here? You can't just cut taxes/regulations and let it be a free for all. I thought there was supposed to be a dedicated fund for transportation monies?
Quote from: I-39 on September 24, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Not to get political, but I no longer like Scott Walker. What exactly is he trying to accomplish here? You can't just cut taxes/regulations and let it be a free for all. I thought there was supposed to be a dedicated fund for transportation monies?
It's a tough situation. Walker isn't the only politician that doesn't want to raise the gas tax. Congress doesn't want to raise the federal gas tax either because people will revolt against it, and gas prices are a sensitive issue as it is. John Oliver on HBO did a segment on crumbling infrastructure, and he showed a CSPAN segment where everyone who called in was against a gas tax increase and no one called in for support. There was an automatic 1cent/year gas tax increase, but that ended under Jim Doyle. At the same time, he doubled auto registration fees. The reason why the gas tax doesn't go up is because it's a hard sell and considered political suicide.
Quote from: I-39 on September 24, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Not to get political, but I no longer like Scott Walker. What exactly is he trying to accomplish here? You can't just cut taxes/regulations and let it be a free for all. I thought there was supposed to be a dedicated fund for transportation monies?
Ahhhh, the repeal of the annual indexing to keep the fuel tax rate level with inflation was repealed under James Doyle, Walker's predecessor.
Mike
Quote from: peterj920 on September 25, 2015, 12:07:47 AM
Quote from: I-39 on September 24, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Not to get political, but I no longer like Scott Walker. What exactly is he trying to accomplish here? You can't just cut taxes/regulations and let it be a free for all. I thought there was supposed to be a dedicated fund for transportation monies?
It's a tough situation. Walker isn't the only politician that doesn't want to raise the gas tax. Congress doesn't want to raise the federal gas tax either because people will revolt against it, and gas prices are a sensitive issue as it is. John Oliver on HBO did a segment on crumbling infrastructure, and he showed a CSPAN segment where everyone who called in was against a gas tax increase and no one called in for support. There was an automatic 1cent/year gas tax increase, but that ended under Jim Doyle. At the same time, he doubled auto registration fees. The reason why the gas tax doesn't go up is because it's a hard sell and considered political suicide.
It wasn't "1 cent/year", it varied based on the rate of inflation. One year (early 1990s), the rate went DOWN slightly in the annual adjustment.
I'm to the point of strongly advocating repealing the segregated transport fund and special fuel tax entirely, replacing it with the regular retail sales tax, and putting roads and other transport on the general fund.
One counterpoint to the 'revolt' thing, how many incumbent Republican legislators in Michigan lost their seats in the first election after they approved an increase in their fuel tax rate a few years ago?
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on September 25, 2015, 12:28:54 AM
Quote from: peterj920 on September 25, 2015, 12:07:47 AM
Quote from: I-39 on September 24, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Not to get political, but I no longer like Scott Walker. What exactly is he trying to accomplish here? You can't just cut taxes/regulations and let it be a free for all. I thought there was supposed to be a dedicated fund for transportation monies?
It's a tough situation. Walker isn't the only politician that doesn't want to raise the gas tax. Congress doesn't want to raise the federal gas tax either because people will revolt against it, and gas prices are a sensitive issue as it is. John Oliver on HBO did a segment on crumbling infrastructure, and he showed a CSPAN segment where everyone who called in was against a gas tax increase and no one called in for support. There was an automatic 1cent/year gas tax increase, but that ended under Jim Doyle. At the same time, he doubled auto registration fees. The reason why the gas tax doesn't go up is because it's a hard sell and considered political suicide.
It wasn't "1 cent/year", it varied based on the rate of inflation. One year (early 1990s), the rate went DOWN slightly in the annual adjustment.
I'm to the point of strongly advocating repealing the segregated transport fund and special fuel tax entirely, replacing it with the regular retail sales tax, and putting roads and other transport on the general fund.
So it can compete with every other priority? I guess that's fine but you aren't going to solve the problem really. You just can't keep reducing revenue relative to inflation. My property taxes have gone 3.5% over the past two years. I mean, that's nice and all, but you just can't keep doing this and expect that it isn't going to have an impact on the infrastructure of the state.
Quote from: mgk920 on September 25, 2015, 12:28:54 AM
Quote from: peterj920 on September 25, 2015, 12:07:47 AM
Quote from: I-39 on September 24, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Not to get political, but I no longer like Scott Walker. What exactly is he trying to accomplish here? You can't just cut taxes/regulations and let it be a free for all. I thought there was supposed to be a dedicated fund for transportation monies?
It's a tough situation. Walker isn't the only politician that doesn't want to raise the gas tax. Congress doesn't want to raise the federal gas tax either because people will revolt against it, and gas prices are a sensitive issue as it is. John Oliver on HBO did a segment on crumbling infrastructure, and he showed a CSPAN segment where everyone who called in was against a gas tax increase and no one called in for support. There was an automatic 1cent/year gas tax increase, but that ended under Jim Doyle. At the same time, he doubled auto registration fees. The reason why the gas tax doesn't go up is because it's a hard sell and considered political suicide.
It wasn't "1 cent/year", it varied based on the rate of inflation. One year (early 1990s), the rate went DOWN slightly in the annual adjustment.
I'm to the point of strongly advocating repealing the segregated transport fund and special fuel tax entirely, replacing it with the regular retail sales tax, and putting roads and other transport on the general fund.
One counterpoint to the 'revolt' thing, how many incumbent Republican legislators in Michigan lost their seats in the first election after they approved an increase in their fuel tax rate a few years ago?
Mike
I think that will make WisDOT the IDiOT of the north.
Quote from: I-39 on September 24, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Unfortunately as stated before, the entire state would revolt against a gas tax especially considering the volatility of prices over the last decade
Quote from: mgk920 on September 25, 2015, 12:28:54 AM
Quote from: peterj920 on September 25, 2015, 12:07:47 AM
Quote from: I-39 on September 24, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Not to get political, but I no longer like Scott Walker. What exactly is he trying to accomplish here? You can't just cut taxes/regulations and let it be a free for all. I thought there was supposed to be a dedicated fund for transportation monies?
It's a tough situation. Walker isn't the only politician that doesn't want to raise the gas tax. Congress doesn't want to raise the federal gas tax either because people will revolt against it, and gas prices are a sensitive issue as it is. John Oliver on HBO did a segment on crumbling infrastructure, and he showed a CSPAN segment where everyone who called in was against a gas tax increase and no one called in for support. There was an automatic 1cent/year gas tax increase, but that ended under Jim Doyle. At the same time, he doubled auto registration fees. The reason why the gas tax doesn't go up is because it's a hard sell and considered political suicide.
It wasn't "1 cent/year", it varied based on the rate of inflation. One year (early 1990s), the rate went DOWN slightly in the annual adjustment.
I'm to the point of strongly advocating repealing the segregated transport fund and special fuel tax entirely, replacing it with the regular retail sales tax, and putting roads and other transport on the general fund.
One counterpoint to the 'revolt' thing, how many incumbent Republican legislators in Michigan lost their seats in the first election after they approved an increase in their fuel tax rate a few years ago?
Mike
Unfortunately, you're not going to see the transportation fund get rolled into the general fund anytime soon. If you may recall, in last fall's election, voters passed a constitutional amendment stating that the transportation fund was to be used for transportation only. One argument for the amendment was that keeping transportation money for transportation only may help the fund stay solvent, but obviously that isn't happening, because revenues are down. Walker is too focused on scoring political points that you'll never see any kind of tax increase (that he'll admit to anyway) as long as he is governor. In my opinion, all the borrowing he proposed in the budget wasn't the way to go either. The gas tax needs to be raised one way or another. Gas prices have been falling, so people aren't going to feel it as much. Another thing is I think the state did take on to many big projects at once, which I think is another reason for all these projects getting delayed. I think they need to prioritize them, and finish one before starting another.
Quote from: tchafe1978 on September 25, 2015, 05:12:08 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 25, 2015, 12:28:54 AM
Quote from: peterj920 on September 25, 2015, 12:07:47 AM
Quote from: I-39 on September 24, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on September 24, 2015, 06:21:27 PM
Still trying to figure out what is supposed to magically happen between 2017 and 2020 that will magically make these funds appear...
Unless they raise the gas tax, the money won't be there.
Not to get political, but I no longer like Scott Walker. What exactly is he trying to accomplish here? You can't just cut taxes/regulations and let it be a free for all. I thought there was supposed to be a dedicated fund for transportation monies?
It's a tough situation. Walker isn't the only politician that doesn't want to raise the gas tax. Congress doesn't want to raise the federal gas tax either because people will revolt against it, and gas prices are a sensitive issue as it is. John Oliver on HBO did a segment on crumbling infrastructure, and he showed a CSPAN segment where everyone who called in was against a gas tax increase and no one called in for support. There was an automatic 1cent/year gas tax increase, but that ended under Jim Doyle. At the same time, he doubled auto registration fees. The reason why the gas tax doesn't go up is because it's a hard sell and considered political suicide.
It wasn't "1 cent/year", it varied based on the rate of inflation. One year (early 1990s), the rate went DOWN slightly in the annual adjustment.
I'm to the point of strongly advocating repealing the segregated transport fund and special fuel tax entirely, replacing it with the regular retail sales tax, and putting roads and other transport on the general fund.
One counterpoint to the 'revolt' thing, how many incumbent Republican legislators in Michigan lost their seats in the first election after they approved an increase in their fuel tax rate a few years ago?
Mike
Unfortunately, you're not going to see the transportation fund get rolled into the general fund anytime soon. If you may recall, in last fall's election, voters passed a constitutional amendment stating that the transportation fund was to be used for transportation only. One argument for the amendment was that keeping transportation money for transportation only may help the fund stay solvent, but obviously that isn't happening, because revenues are down. Walker is too focused on scoring political points that you'll never see any kind of tax increase (that he'll admit to anyway) as long as he is governor. In my opinion, all the borrowing he proposed in the budget wasn't the way to go either. The gas tax needs to be raised one way or another. Gas prices have been falling, so people aren't going to feel it as much. Another thing is I think the state did take on to many big projects at once, which I think is another reason for all these projects getting delayed. I think they need to prioritize them, and finish one before starting another.
And the Verona Road and I-39/90 rebuild projects should be at or near the top of the list. Both are long overdue.
This goes back to what I've stated MANY times on this forum. WisDOT spends WAY too much money overbuilding it's roads, such as making every major corridor a four lane high-quality expressway or interstate-like freeway. Then when it comes time to rebuild major things, they don't have enough money. They press ahead with unnecessary (and overbuilt) stuff like US 10 between Marshfield and Stevens Point, WIS 26 between Janesville and Watertown, the US 12 Baraboo bypass, US 14 upgrades south of Madison, and the list goes on and on.
The only highways that need to be full-blown freeways or high-quality expressway are the backbone routes in the Connections 2030 plan.
And it's a good thing they have a separate Transportation fund, otherwise, this money would go towards other things. Since cars are only getting more fuel efficient, the gas tax should be raised. I don't think people understand the consequences of not maintaining and upgrading infrastructure over the long term.
I have no idea what Walker and the Wisconsin Legislature is trying to accomplish here? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Quote from: mgk920 on September 25, 2015, 12:24:20 AM
Ahhhh, the repeal of the annual indexing to keep the fuel tax rate level with inflation was repealed under James Doyle, Walker's predecessor.
Mike
And yet, neither Walker nor anyone else in Madison makes any effort to improve the situation. So you can't really blame it on Doyle, all these years later.
If there's anyone to blame, it's public opinion. The public does not want a gas tax increase. When Jim Doyle repealed the automatic indexing of the gas tax, it was a politically popular move, and he took advantage of it by campaigning that he repealed it and even used it in re-election ads. Neither party is going to increase it. Republicans won't because they have the reputation for keeping taxes low, and they would be seen as betraying the public if they would increase taxes. In states where Democrats are the minority and the US Congress, they won't propose increasing the gas tax either because if they would, that issue would be used against them when trying to regain control. Politicians from both parties do campaign on fixing roads and infastructure, but they don't say how to pay for it. I can guarantee that you won't find a single political campaign anywhere in the country that wants to increase the gas tax.
I wouldn't expect this to be the last delay for Verona Road (and other majors projects http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/6yr-hwy-impr/maj-hwy/default.aspx (http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/6yr-hwy-impr/maj-hwy/default.aspx))... if the next budget passed 2 years from now doesn't add funding expect more delays. :-/
It has been interesting to watch WisDOT adjust to this sudden change in funding. They have been a very expansion oriented DOT and basically been given a blank check by the legislature and governor over the past 25 years. I don't think they realize how good they had it compared to other states (many have ended any expansion projects and cannot keep up with the existing system). This funding shift hit them suddenly and they were not prepared for it. Many of the ongoing projects (Verona, Zoo, 441, North-South) all assumed the funding stream would remain as is to stay on schedule. Other states fully fund their projects before projects hit the ground running (a hard learned lesson for WisDOT).
This news release of delays for Verona and 39/90 are only the first of many that we will see in the next few months. :no: