On a round trip to Boston today, I noticed that Massachusetts is rebranding their "Citizens Bank Fast Lane" program to join the rest of the northeast in simply calling their system "E-ZPass" The signage conversion appears to be complete at the Stockbridge tolls and at Exit 2 in Lee. There were temporary-looking signs at some toll booths and VMS's announcing the upcoming change further east, but I didn't notice changes to permanent signs between Lee and where I got off and back on at Exit 18 in Boston.
The conversion is mentioned on MassDOT's FastLane page:
http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/traffictravelresources/fastlaneprogram.aspx (http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/traffictravelresources/fastlaneprogram.aspx)
I assume this change has no meaningful effect, as FastLane has been a part of the E-ZPass Consortium (I think) since its introduction.
Figures that the day I don't bother bringing the camera on a very familiar route, there's actually something to photograph. Oh well.
To afford an effective transition for customers, MassDOT's contractor is changing out signs to EZ-Pass only one interchange at a time, working west to east. The signing should be completely replaced on the Turnpike, the Turnpike extension, the harbor tunnels, and the Tobin Bridge, by early October of this year.
And the project will have a very meaningful effect, as it is replacing the current multi-colored "totem pole" signs with simplified 2009 MUTCD-compliant toll signing.
Just curious–are they doing away with the corporate sponsorship as well? Doesn't really matter to me, I'm just wondering.
Quote from: Jim on May 21, 2012, 05:43:51 PM
....
Figures that the day I don't bother bringing the camera on a very familiar route, there's actually something to photograph. Oh well.
Your comment reminds me of the time a couple of years ago when I was playing a golf course near my house and didn't bring the camera because I'd played it hundreds of times and I figured I'd never see anything new. Naturally that was the time a Stealth Bomber flew over the course three different times during the round.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 22, 2012, 11:52:16 AM
Just curiousare they doing away with the corporate sponsorship as well? Doesn't really matter to me, I'm just wondering.
The conversion to EZ-Pass was mandated by FHWA as a condition of the MassHighway/MassPike "merger" created by the Legislature in 2009. The Citizen's Bank corporate sponsorship of the Pike ETC system has ended, and "EZ-Pass" will not have any corporate sponsorship.
Quote from: roadman on May 22, 2012, 12:07:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 22, 2012, 11:52:16 AM
Just curiousare they doing away with the corporate sponsorship as well? Doesn't really matter to me, I'm just wondering.
The conversion to EZ-Pass was mandated by FHWA as a condition of the MassHighway/MassPike "merger" created by the Legislature in 2009. The Citizen's Bank corporate sponsorship of the Pike ETC system has ended, and "EZ-Pass" will not have any corporate sponsorship.
Did FHWA require E-ZPass branding per se, or just no corporate sponsorship? It's probably better if it's the same name in as many places as possible, but theoretically could they have been within the rules to keep the Fast Lane name without sponsorship?
Quote from: PurdueBill on May 22, 2012, 12:30:32 PM
Did FHWA require E-ZPass branding per se, or just no corporate sponsorship? It's probably better if it's the same name in as many places as possible, but theoretically could they have been within the rules to keep the Fast Lane name without sponsorship?
A clarification is in order. FHWA required that the Citizen's Bank corporate sponsorship be removed, and strongly recommended (but did not mandate) that the branding be changed to EZ-Pass. MassDOT had planned on changing the branding anyway, because the "Fast Lane - EZ-Pass Accepted" dual branding made the signs confusing to read at Pike speeds.
It's also worth noting that the existing "Citizens Bank" signs are almost 15 years old and were due for replacement anyway.
So does that mean that the signs in northern NJ stating that Mass Pike Fast Lane accepted in EZ Pass lanes will ultimately be taken down?
My first tag was old enough to have a Bank of Boston logo on it! It's surprising that Indiana's I-Zoom wasn't branded as E-ZPass but at the time with the gap in Ohio I guess it wasn't important to have continuity in the brand across state lines. It will be easier to have one name when coming in to Massachusetts from NH/ME or NY.
I drove the MassPike west this weekend, and the signage has been replaced at Exits 1,2,3,5,6, and the NY line.
Approach signage: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-w9cdPx0sN1U/T9ZiLgZRCoI/AAAAAAAAAN4/DRRwDmIxGvA/s720/DSC01375.JPG
The lanes themselves: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2jzT7vf-d9k/T9ZiMXIGAqI/AAAAAAAAAOA/Pr0wxvPXOFM/s720/DSC01376.JPG
Looks very standard.
Interesting--in my latest FastLane statement email was an image that turns out to be exactly the same as an apparent sign posted before a toll plaza. Here is the picture from the MassPike web site:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.massdot.state.ma.us%2FPortals%2F8%2FImages%2Ffastlane%2FEZPassChange.jpg&hash=68fe0dc9a238cb4430440f862b32a4bd95a19b4b)
Interesting how the Citizens Bank name continues to appear right up to the very end in the logo being replaced.
Quote from: PurdueBill on June 12, 2012, 10:32:05 AM
Interesting--in my latest FastLane statement email was an image that turns out to be exactly the same as an apparent sign posted before a toll plaza. Here is the picture from the MassPike web site:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.massdot.state.ma.us%2FPortals%2F8%2FImages%2Ffastlane%2FEZPassChange.jpg&hash=68fe0dc9a238cb4430440f862b32a4bd95a19b4b)
Interesting how the Citizens Bank name continues to appear right up to the very end in the logo being replaced.
That's because the
Citizens Bank name and sponsorship is being terminated as well.
And they're probably trying to milk that sponsorship as long as possible.
Citizens Bank.
It has been replaced at exit 11 (MA-122) as well.
Quote from: Beeper1 on June 12, 2012, 09:15:06 PM
It has been replaced at exit 11 (MA-122) as well.
...and at exit 12 (MA-9) too.
First trip to Boston in a few months today, and it's E-ZPass signage out to Exit 18 at least. And they've added the purple line stripes on the E-ZPass only lanes at the Newton barrier like the NY Thruway has (at least) at the Woodbury barrier.
Afternoon update: when getting back on the Mass Pike from Storrow Drive, I could see the signs up on the Mass Pike westbound approaching the Allston tolls and at least some of the signs still have "FastLane" instead of "E-ZPass".
heh, I've been referring to FastLane as E-ZPass since about the early 2000s.
Quote from: Jim on August 15, 2012, 08:10:29 PM
Afternoon update: when getting back on the Mass Pike from Storrow Drive, I could see the signs up on the Mass Pike westbound approaching the Allston tolls and at least some of the signs still have "FastLane" instead of "E-ZPass".
Went through the Allston Brighton tolls last Saturday. While there are a couple of ground-mount signs that still say Fast Lane, all the overhead ETC signs have been changed to EZ-Pass. And my spies tell me that the remaining ground-mounts at this location should be changed out within the week.
I went up to the Alewife "T" station and then over to Kenmore Square/Fenway Park on Saturday. The Massachusetts Turnpike toll plaza in Sturbridge had the EZ-Pass signs changed over the lanes, but still had "Fast Lane" painted on the road in front of them. It was pretty much the same thing for Exit 14 for I-95/MA Route 128, to and from the Massachusetts Turnpike. We weren't on the Turnpike east of Exit 14 (did I-90 East, to I-95/MA 128 North to MA 2 East).
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on August 19, 2012, 01:00:05 AM
I went up to the Alewife "T" station and then over to Kenmore Square/Fenway Park on Saturday. The Massachusetts Turnpike toll plaza in Sturbridge had the EZ-Pass signs changed over the lanes, but still had "Fast Lane" painted on the road in front of them. It was pretty much the same thing for Exit 14 for I-95/MA Route 128, to and from the Massachusetts Turnpike. We weren't on the Turnpike east of Exit 14 (did I-90 East, to I-95/MA 128 North to MA 2 East).
It is my understanding that the "Fast Lane Only" pavement markings are scheduled to be changed over to "EZ-Pass Only" at all interchanges along the Pike within the next month or so.
Drove the Tobin Bridge last Friday and the advance signs for the toll have been changed over to E-ZPass (except for one fast lane sign), but the bridge itself still has a mix. There's still signs that say "E-ZPass accepted in FastLane lanes", and the lane assignment approaching the toll plaza is a mix, but the plaza itself is 100% E-ZPass.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on August 20, 2012, 07:33:22 PM
Drove the Tobin Bridge last Friday and the advance signs for the toll have been changed over to E-ZPass (except for one fast lane sign), but the bridge itself still has a mix. There's still signs that say "E-ZPass accepted in FastLane lanes", and the lane assignment approaching the toll plaza is a mix, but the plaza itself is 100% E-ZPass.
Once all the signs (including the drum-matrix signs) are changed from Fast Lane to EZ-Pass, and the unnecessary EZ-Pass accepted signs are removed, word is that the current
"transponder accepted in all lanes" EZ-Pass accepted in cash lanes practice on the Tobin Bridge will be ending. When lanes are signed as cash, they will be cash only, and
when lanes are signed as EZ-Pass, EZ-Pass signed lanes will be for transponders only. Not sure if they're going to get rid of the gates though.
What does the transponder acceptance practice have to do with which signs are up? Seems to me they're 100% unrelated.
Quote from: deanej on August 24, 2012, 04:56:53 PM
What does the transponder acceptance practice have to do with which signs are up? Seems to me they're 100% unrelated.
At present, all lanes on the Tobin Bridge can accept either cash or EZ-Pass, regardless of which lane mode is actually displayed on the changeable signs (it's apparently one of those "secrets" that MassPort and, more recently, MassDOT never formally told the public about). Although the ability to switch specific lanes from cash to EZ-Pass operation (and vice-versa) depending on demand and traffic flow will remain, the current "dual mode in any lane" system will go away.
My spies tell me that this proposed change is based on the theory that having "dual mode" lanes instead of dedicated lanes actually slows down traffic crossing the bridge. I'm not sure if this argument actually has any merit, as my specialty is signs - not traffic flow theory. But, and for what it's worth, I think they could do much more good for flow by keeping the "dual mode" lanes and just get rid of the silly gates in them. Never could quite figure out the logic of having a gate in an EZ-Pass lane.
But I agree with you - IMO the two issues are totally unrelated.
I wonder if someone in management just didn't know that the public was never told about that option in the first place.
I'm not so sure that's actually correct... while all cash lanes accept E-ZPass, I'm pretty sure there's no one in the booths at the E-ZPass only lanes.
As someone who's studied this, a dual-mode lane is only as efficient as the slowest cash user. It's much more efficient to separate payment modes in terms of overall throughput. (Not to mention safety - especially where signs show E-ZPass and a cash user butts in.)
Wouldn't dual-mode be safer with that though? If a cash user butts in to an E-ZPass lane in dual mode, the drivers can go around. Without it, E-ZPass users are effectively barred from going through the toll booths unless they decide to forgo the transponder for the trip (and even that wouldn't work if the offending driver was at the exit from a ticket system).
Quote from: Steve on August 26, 2012, 12:10:18 AM
As someone who's studied this, a dual-mode lane is only as efficient as the slowest cash user. It's much more efficient to separate payment modes in terms of overall throughput. (Not to mention safety - especially where signs show E-ZPass and a cash user butts in.)
I go on personal experience to say that the dual-mode lanes can be scary if you're paying cash. Virginia allows E-ZPass in all lanes, and most of the ramp tolls do not have a dedicated E-ZPass lane for reasons of lack of space (on the Dulles Toll Road, for example, typically there's one manned "full-service" lane and one unmanned "exact change or E-ZPass" lane–meaning a toll machine). Prior to my getting a Smart Tag (former Virginia-only transponder that later became part of E-ZPass), I nearly shit myself when I stopped to pay cash in an "Exact Change or Smart Tag" lane on the Dulles Toll Road and I barely had the window down when I saw a Ford Excursion barrelling down behind me with no apparent intention of slowing down. Yes, it's incumbent on the E-ZPass driver to be aware of what's ahead of him and to be prepared to stop, but that's small consolation to the driver who gets rear-ended. (I threw the coins and peeled out without waiting for the green light. Never got a summons for an unpaid toll so I guess the transaction went through.)
I've also seen the situation where a cash user stops in an E-ZPass Only lane. The main toll plaza on the Dulles Toll Road has the tollbooths removed from the two left lanes, but there's still a sort of divider thing between those lanes with some electronics and such. Speed limit is 35 mph but it's not unusual to see people go through at 60+ mph. I saw what nearly became a massive pileup when a carload of foreigners stopped in the right-hand of the two E-ZPass Only lanes looking for the basket to throw in their coins and people behind them started having to make panic stops. (In this case I think it IS relevant that the people in the offending vehicle were foreign because it made me suspect they might not have understood the mass of signs leading up to the toll plaza, all of which have lots of words in English only.)
Regarding having the gate on the E-ZPass Only lanes, that's common in New York City (or at least it used to be and still was on my last trip there in July 2010) and I always assumed it was just another means of trying to prevent cash-payers from cheating the system by driving through E-ZPass Only lanes without paying. Come to think of it, in the dual-mode lane scenario I describe above I almost think having the gate might be a better idea because if the E-ZPass users know they have to slow for the gate, they might be better prepared to stop when they encounter a cash user. Yeah, since I have an E-ZPass and a Florida SunPass I know it's damn annoying, but on the other hand so is a crash at a toll plaza.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
Quote from: Steve on August 26, 2012, 12:10:18 AM
As someone who's studied this, a dual-mode lane is only as efficient as the slowest cash user. It's much more efficient to separate payment modes in terms of overall throughput. (Not to mention safety - especially where signs show E-ZPass and a cash user butts in.)
I go on personal experience to say that the dual-mode lanes can be scary if you're paying cash. Virginia allows E-ZPass in all lanes, and most of the ramp tolls do not have a dedicated E-ZPass lane for reasons of lack of space (on the Dulles Toll Road, for example, typically there's one manned "full-service" lane and one unmanned "exact change or E-ZPass" lane–meaning a toll machine). Prior to my getting a Smart Tag (former Virginia-only transponder that later became part of E-ZPass), I nearly shit myself when I stopped to pay cash in an "Exact Change or Smart Tag" lane on the Dulles Toll Road and I barely had the window down when I saw a Ford Excursion barrelling down behind me with no apparent intention of slowing down. Yes, it's incumbent on the E-ZPass driver to be aware of what's ahead of him and to be prepared to stop, but that's small consolation to the driver who gets rear-ended. (I threw the coins and peeled out without waiting for the green light. Never got a summons for an unpaid toll so I guess the transaction went through.)
Hoo, I've been driving the Dulles Toll Road (Va. 267) pretty frequently since it opened to traffic about 1982 (of course, back then, everything was cash-only). I agree with you about vehicles paying with transponder go roaring through the ramp toll gates all along the Toll Road corridor.
Regarding summonses, for many years, there was
no enforcement of unpaid tolls along the Toll Road corridor (there is now - I was told that VDOT and then MWAA had to put in cameras and an enforcement process as a condition of joining the E-ZPass IAG). Unpaid toll in Virginia is, I believe, a civil infraction (similar to petty larceny) if a police officer sees a driver pass a toll point without paying.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
I've also seen the situation where a cash user stops in an E-ZPass Only lane. The main toll plaza on the Dulles Toll Road has the tollbooths removed from the two left lanes, but there's still a sort of divider thing between those lanes with some electronics and such. Speed limit is 35 mph but it's not unusual to see people go through at 60+ mph. I saw what nearly became a massive pileup when a carload of foreigners stopped in the right-hand of the two E-ZPass Only lanes looking for the basket to throw in their coins and people behind them started having to make panic stops. (In this case I think it IS relevant that the people in the offending vehicle were foreign because it made me suspect they might not have understood the mass of signs leading up to the toll plaza, all of which have lots of words in English only.)
When those lanes were first converted to electronic-only, many drivers stopped there to pay cash. It's less common now, but still happens. A testimony to the diversity of people that use the DTR!
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
Regarding having the gate on the E-ZPass Only lanes, that's common in New York City (or at least it used to be and still was on my last trip there in July 2010) and I always assumed it was just another means of trying to prevent cash-payers from cheating the system by driving through E-ZPass Only lanes without paying. Come to think of it, in the dual-mode lane scenario I describe above I almost think having the gate might be a better idea because if the E-ZPass users know they have to slow for the gate, they might be better prepared to stop when they encounter a cash user. Yeah, since I have an E-ZPass and a Florida SunPass I know it's damn annoying, but on the other hand so is a crash at a toll plaza.
One of the most-compelling reasons for going all cashless is the reduction in crashes at toll plazas. Of course, saving money by not collecting cash is also a good reason!
I've not driven in New York City in a very long time (though I've driven in upstate New York somewhat frequently, including the Thruway and some of the NYSBA crossings of the Hudson).
Getting back to Virginia, the Dulles Greenway (the extension of the Dulles Toll Road into Loudoun County) has gates at all of its toll barriers, even for E-ZPass Only lanes.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
Yes, it's incumbent on the E-ZPass driver to be aware of what's ahead of him and to be prepared to stop
At least in NY, E-ZPass drivers are supposed to come to a complete stop in dual mode lanes regardless of whether a cash customer is in front of them.
Quote from: deanej on August 27, 2012, 08:59:58 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
Yes, it's incumbent on the E-ZPass driver to be aware of what's ahead of him and to be prepared to stop
At least in NY, E-ZPass drivers are supposed to come to a complete stop in dual mode lanes regardless of whether a cash customer is in front of them.
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to wait for the attendant to switch the light from red to green, and that you can be fined for not coming to a stop. I get on at 26 fairly often, where there is no dedicated E-ZPass lane on entry outside of morning rush (during which time there is no dedicated E-ZPass on exit..), and the attendants seem to get upset sometimes when they have someone breeze through without stopping.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on August 25, 2012, 05:19:31 PM
I'm not so sure that's actually correct... while all cash lanes accept E-ZPass, I'm pretty sure there's no one in the booths at the E-ZPass only lanes.
You are correct, and I misspoke - thank you for noting the error. I have revised my original posting.
Quote from: deanej on August 27, 2012, 08:59:58 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
Yes, it's incumbent on the E-ZPass driver to be aware of what's ahead of him and to be prepared to stop
At least in NY, E-ZPass drivers are supposed to come to a complete stop in dual mode lanes regardless of whether a cash customer is in front of them.
That's the way it is now on the Tobin Bridge. Not because of any state law, but because of the gates in the lanes. And yes, when a lane goes into EZ-Pass only mode, you still have to wait for the silly gate to go up.
Quote from: roadman on August 27, 2012, 08:41:32 PM
Quote from: deanej on August 27, 2012, 08:59:58 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
Yes, it's incumbent on the E-ZPass driver to be aware of what's ahead of him and to be prepared to stop
At least in NY, E-ZPass drivers are supposed to come to a complete stop in dual mode lanes regardless of whether a cash customer is in front of them.
That's the way it is now on the Tobin Bridge. Not because of any state law, but because of the gates in the lanes. And yes, when a lane goes into EZ-Pass only mode, you still have to wait for the silly gate to go up.
I've only ever seen the center lanes be E-ZPass only, and they do not have gates and do not require a full stop. Been ages since I've been through a cash lane though so I can't speak for those.
Also, I drove the Tobin Bridge around noon today and no new signage updates.
Regarding the Dulles Toll road and foreigners stopping on the road, is there a universal symbol for "tag lane"? Perhaps one needs to be created....
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on August 28, 2012, 01:15:27 PM
I've only ever seen the center lanes be E-ZPass only, and they do not have gates and do not require a full stop. Been ages since I've been through a cash lane though so I can't speak for those.
Also, I drove the Tobin Bridge around noon today and no new signage updates.
I haven't driven across the Tobin Bridge southbound in several years, so I'll gladly defer to you on this one. However, when the Fast Lane lanes had just been installed, they had the gates as well.
Quote from: Zmapper on August 28, 2012, 01:28:47 PM
Regarding the Dulles Toll road and foreigners stopping on the road, is there a universal symbol for "tag lane"? Perhaps one needs to be created....
Not that I know of. I believe the flashing yellow light that some of the states in the Northeast use to denote an "E-ZPass Only" lane is optional. Virginia doesn't use it, for example, and I don't ever recall seeing anything of that sort in Florida either. I've found Florida's toll signage to be quite clear, whereas I think a lot of the E-ZPass states seem to be a bit of a mixed bag. I'm sure part of that is that the E-ZPass states seem to have a lot more retrofitted toll plazas without highway-speed ORT lanes, as well as very little consistency over the years in terms of whether they have dual-mode lanes, ETC-only lanes, whatever.
I've always liked the flashing yellow light in those states that use it. I find it makes it easy to ascertain the ETC-only lane quickly in an area where you usually have an awful lot of signs in a small amount of space. I recall when I was growing up I thought the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority facilities in New York signed their plazas pretty well too in terms of using those bright orange "TOLL MACHINE" signs for the exact-change lanes. (Incidentally, those signs are part of the reason I still use the term "toll machine" in these threads. I recall for awhile the Verrazano Bridge toll plaza had some "Exact Toll" lanes–NOT "exact change"–designated with green signs and green lane markings. The toll at the time was around $7.00 and they would accept the exact $7.00 in bills or a token. So mentally I still distinguish between an "exact toll" lane and a "toll machine" lane. Of course, I also remember the time I got stuck behind some clod in the Verrazano "Exact Toll" lane who tried to pay with a $50 bill, according to the toll collector.)
Of course, to return to the original issue of a non-English speaker not understanding the signs, the flashing yellow light doesn't really solve that problem because he still has to understand the sign saying that the flashing yellow light denotes an ETC-only lane as well as the sign saying that those lanes do not accept cash.
The last time I used a Massachusetts toll facility was in 2008 on the way home from Nova Scotia (Turnpike from I-495 to I-84). I don't remember having any confusion at all on the lanes. I do think it makes sense for them to retain some kind of signage saying that Fast Lane transponders (perhaps without the sponsor's logo) are still accepted in E-ZPass lanes. It underscores to the dullards out there that they don't have to turn in their transponders. Virginia continued to have the Smart Tag logo on the signs for several years after joining the E-ZPass consortium. Does no harm, really.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2012, 03:30:22 PM
Of course, I also remember the time I got stuck behind some clod in the Verrazano "Exact Toll" lane who tried to pay with a $50 bill, according to the toll collector.
Legal tender, blah blah blah. (The toll is after the bridge, so you've already incurred a debt.)
Quote from: NE2 on August 28, 2012, 03:32:46 PM
Legal tender, blah blah blah. (The toll is after the bridge, so you've already incurred a debt.)
"Geez, what happened to you? You look terrible."
"I'll only say this - never give a toll taker a twenty."
From MAD Magazine's parody of
The Godfather.
by far the most puzzling toll collection mechanism was an exit off the New Jersey Turnpike in some not-so-keen neighborhood of Newark that required a deposit of 25 cents in 2003.
we pulled up to what, in the darkness, vaguely resembled the usual toll collection setup. there was no gate, and no obvious place to deposit a coin. after a minute or two, we realized the problem and just drove off.
the entire toll collection assembly had been stolen!
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 28, 2012, 03:47:38 PM
by far the most puzzling toll collection mechanism was an exit off the New Jersey Turnpike in some not-so-keen neighborhood of Newark that required a deposit of 25 cents in 2003.
That would be the Parkway.
Quote from: NE2 on August 28, 2012, 03:32:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2012, 03:30:22 PM
Of course, I also remember the time I got stuck behind some clod in the Verrazano "Exact Toll" lane who tried to pay with a $50 bill, according to the toll collector.
Legal tender, blah blah blah. (The toll is after the bridge, so you've already incurred a debt.)
I have no interest in getting into that debate, but the idea of saying that they accept only exact cash in that lane strikes me as no different from the well-established (and perfectly legal) practice many businesses have of saying that they won't accept banknotes of larger than a specified denomination (usually "Bills larger than $20 not accepted"). Arguably the idea of the "Exact Toll" lane is less restrictive than "Bills larger than $20 not accepted" because the toll plaza would still accept larger bills, just not in that particular lane.
(If the "legal tender" argument were valid, then wouldn't all toll machine lanes located at an exit or at the end of a tolled facility be illegal due to their inability to accept banknotes?)
I seem to recall the toll collector told the offender to pull off to the side between toll lanes just past the plaza and I don't know what came of it because we paid our toll and went on our way. I think the last time I remember paying a cash toll anywhere was in April 2006 on the Forth Road Bridge in Scotland.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2012, 04:20:01 PM
I have no interest in getting into that debate, but the idea of saying that they accept only exact cash in that lane strikes me as no different from the well-established (and perfectly legal) practice many businesses have of saying that they won't accept banknotes of larger than a specified denomination (usually "Bills larger than $20 not accepted").
Because you're not incurring a debt by walking up to the cash register with an item. If you eat at a restaurant and then when you go to pay the bill they say they won't accept a $50, that's illegal.
Don't know why I'm letting myself get sucked into this....
The US government disagrees with your interpretation of "legal tender" and states that nobody (private individual or business) is required to accept US currency (banknotes or coins) unless a state, local, or territorial law requires otherwise. The reason is that while federal law establishes that the US banknotes and coins specified in the "legal tender" statute (31 USC 5103) are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor, there is no corresponding federal statute that requires anyone actually to accept that currency.
Again, if your "legal tender" argument were valid, then someone could bring a successful federal lawsuit against toll roads that accept only credit cards or ETC transactions (such as E-ZPass), and it would be against federal law to have toll machine lanes that do not accept banknotes nor pennies (come to think of it, I wonder how many of them accept half-dollars and dollar coins).
From the US Treasury Department "Legal Tender Status" FAQ (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx):
QuoteI thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?
The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
No offense, NE2, but I have to give the Treasury Department's position on this more credit than yours unless you can show me where the Supreme Court has ruled otherwise or a recent federal statute has rendered the Treasury Department's statement obsolete–although, as I said before, I also readily acknowledge (as does the Treasury FAQ) that state, local, or territorial law can indeed impose an obligation to accept cash.
I know of at least one toll road where the ramp tolls accept only E-ZPass or plastic and will not accept cash.
There's a difference between paying for something you haven't yet consumed and settling an existing debt.
No need for personal attacks, as frustrated as you may be.
If you're at the checkout at a store or something similar, there's no debt (the items are still in the store unconsumed), so the treasury department's position is arguably not related to the debt issue at all.
Exactly. Now it would probably be legal for the toll taker to say "no, I won't take a $50, now turn around and go back over the bridge". But not "no, I won't take a $50, and by the way here's a $100 ticket for toll evasion".
I have no idea if they're required to make change for a $50, however.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that proprietors are also able to stipulate certain kinds of legal tender as not being accepted so long as the information is given to the consumer before the debt is incurred.
So if you walk into a restaurant and there is a "NO CASH" sign on the hostess's podium then it is valid because you could avoid incurring the debt at that point and say "No, I only have cash, so I'll eat elsewhere." But if they let you sit down and eat and then when they bring the check they tell you they won't accept cash, then it's too late for them to make that stipulation.
Quote from: NE2 on August 28, 2012, 11:12:45 PM
Exactly. Now it would probably be legal for the toll taker to say "no, I won't take a $50, now turn around and go back over the bridge". But not "no, I won't take a $50, and by the way here's a $100 ticket for toll evasion".
I have no idea if they're required to make change for a $50, however.
Wouldn't you have used the bridge not once but twice then in that case?
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 29, 2012, 03:18:46 AM
I seem to recall reading somewhere that proprietors are also able to stipulate certain kinds of legal tender as not being accepted so long as the information is given to the consumer before the debt is incurred.
So if you walk into a restaurant and there is a "NO CASH" sign on the hostess's podium then it is valid because you could avoid incurring the debt at that point and say "No, I only have cash, so I'll eat elsewhere." But if they let you sit down and eat and then when they bring the check they tell you they won't accept cash, then it's too late for them to make that stipulation.
Papa John's advertises on all their boxes that drivers carry less than $20 in change. .
This is all getting off track from the original question, which was whether it is "legal" (term put in quotation marks for a reason*) for a toll authority to establish a lane where they will accept only exact payment, whether in coins or banknotes or toll tokens or whatever, and will not give change. At least one person thinks it is not "legal." Regardless of your beliefs on what "legal tender" means, I think it's pretty clear that it is not "illegal" to maintain that sort of toll lane, including at a toll plaza you encounter only after you've used the toll facility in question. Why? Because the motorist who owes the toll is free to use any of the other toll lanes at which they don't impose a restriction on payment.
I'm aware of at least one court opinion, although I do not have the citation handy, from a federal court in Texas that ruled that the public water utility could validly refuse to accept cash (even for customers who had already incurred a debt) as a security policy after several of its offices suffered robberies. The customer insisted he was allowed to pay cash under the "legal tender" principle and was charged a late fee, which the federal court upheld. Court opinions like that make me skeptical of comments saying "they can't do that" or the like, although, as I've said before, a particular state or local law might establish a different requirement (I don't know of any and am not inclined to look them up). I suppose it also bears noting that the customer in that case worked at a post office and the court found there was no reason why he couldn't have easily obtained a money order.
*The reason for putting "legal" in quotation marks is that when someone says something is "legal" or "illegal" without specifying under what body of law it tends to be a problem. It's like photo enforcement of traffic laws. I've seen people argue, "It's illegal for them to give you that red light ticket if it doesn't show your face." That argument, is of course, nonsense in states where the camera law explicitly prohibits photographing the driver's face.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2012, 09:36:18 AM.... Why? Because the motorist who owes the toll is free to use any of the other toll lanes at which they don't impose a restriction on payment.
Unless no such lane exists.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on August 29, 2012, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2012, 09:36:18 AM.... Why? Because the motorist who owes the toll is free to use any of the other toll lanes at which they don't impose a restriction on payment.
Unless no such lane exists.
The discussion here arose after I mentioned the toll plaza at the Verrazano Bridge and a special lane they used to have (no longer there since the rise of E-ZPass) in which they would accept the exact amount of the toll in cash or via a token, but no change was given. In other words, it was a manned lane, not a machine (since the machines do not accept banknotes). I mentioned using that lane and getting stuck behind a guy who tried to pay the (then-)$7.00 toll with a $50 bill. That particular toll plaza had plenty of other "full-service" lanes and a smaller number of "Toll Machine" lanes (which were obviously almost exclusively used by token-paying customers due to the amount of the toll). Thus, my comment was entirely accurate in the context in which it was made.
If you look back, I mentioned another toll road where the ramp tolls are all limited to E-ZPass or credit/debit card only.
Incidentally, there's a recent (2008) case out of the Western District of New York involving a Rochester city ordinance that required junkyard owners to pay for purchases of junk solely via check (and prohibiting them from then providing a check-cashing service). One of the junkyards sued, claiming the law violated federal law by prohibiting the use of cash. The court found, in part, that there was no violation because the check is payable in United States currency and is thus a legally-recognized substitute for legal tender.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2012, 05:24:43 PM
The discussion here arose after I mentioned the toll plaza at the Verrazano Bridge and a special lane they used to have (no longer there since the rise of E-ZPass) in which they would accept the exact amount of the toll in cash or via a token, but no change was given.
Hmmm - I missed the fact that it was an "exact toll" lane. Insult me all you want.
Quote from: NE2 on August 29, 2012, 05:27:10 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2012, 05:24:43 PM
The discussion here arose after I mentioned the toll plaza at the Verrazano Bridge and a special lane they used to have (no longer there since the rise of E-ZPass) in which they would accept the exact amount of the toll in cash or via a token, but no change was given.
Hmmm - I missed the fact that it was an "exact toll" lane. Insult me all you want.
I did reread the original post (original as it relates to this subthread) and did not miss that -- although I'm somewhat baffled as to the point of having a manned toll lane that doesn't give change. I'd imagine the time savings are pretty negligible. (In fact, as a cashier, I could probably make change for a $20 faster than I could uncrinkle and count the seven singles someone pulled out of their cupholder.)
So yes, the person in question there was foolish for choosing the wrong lane -- and it probably wasn't necessary to have this discussion here, particularly as I just noticed this same discussion appeared a month ago in the PA TPK thread.
But my pithy response wasn't directed at just that specific case, since as you said, there are a number of other locations where a driver has incurred a debt and does not have a "legal" lane to go through. (So in the context my comment was made, it was also correct. :P)
I will point out, however, that it used to be the case on the Garden State Parkway that if you did get stuck at a ramp toll with no way to pay, it operated on the honor system... you grabbed an envelope provided at the tollbooth, and mailed in your (cash?) payment at your convenience. Although I recall reading that this practice has ended recently.
Quote from: NE2 on August 29, 2012, 05:27:10 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2012, 05:24:43 PM
The discussion here arose after I mentioned the toll plaza at the Verrazano Bridge and a special lane they used to have (no longer there since the rise of E-ZPass) in which they would accept the exact amount of the toll in cash or via a token, but no change was given.
Hmmm - I missed the fact that it was an "exact toll" lane. Insult me all you want.
you're ugly and Justin Bieber does not want to marry you.
Jake wins the thread.
ETA: Although it would have been better if you called him titlegs.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on August 29, 2012, 04:56:03 PM
Unless no such lane exists.
Which is why many of the HOT and "all-electronic tolling" roadway setups these days now include a "Bill By Mail" option. If you don't have a transponder, a camera snaps a picture of your license plate. You then get a bill in the mail - of course the toll rate for this option is often much higher than for transponder users.
Quote from: roadman on August 29, 2012, 07:17:58 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on August 29, 2012, 04:56:03 PM
Unless no such lane exists.
Which is why many of the HOT and "all-electronic tolling" roadway setups these days now include a "Bill By Mail" option. If you don't have a transponder, a camera snaps a picture of your license plate. You then get a bill in the mail - of course the toll rate for this option is often much higher than for transponder users.
That said, some of them offer a grace period. ISTHA (Illinois) allows up to 7 days to pay the full cash toll rate (twice the I-Pass rate) before any fines could potentially be levied.