After reading some other threads, I have noticed a lot split off topic about California Control Cities. Thought I would make a thread specifically for that.
For example, I-5 in Orange County going North Santa Ana seems to be replacing Los Angeles, and some agree while others dissagree.
My take is that Santa Ana Could Join, but considering San Diego uses Los Angeles, it should Say Santa Ana, Los Angeles. I can see the Santa Ana Freeway Argument, but at the same time switching Control Cities can be confusing as well.
Another off hand would be "other Desert Cities" I just notice that one gets a lot of notice.
Santa Ana should be eliminated.
the word I'm looking for is "nuclear".
Do they really use "other desert cities"? Is that marking the way to Baghdad, Casablanca, Kashgar, or Alice Springs?
Quote from: kkt on May 31, 2012, 04:15:59 PM
Do they really use "other desert cities"?
Yes, that is indeed on signage on I-10 East:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/417671_10100916402608653_438420241_n.jpg
I guess those other cities are unmentionable. :-D :-D
Quote from: TheStranger on May 31, 2012, 04:47:34 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 31, 2012, 04:15:59 PM
Do they really use "other desert cities"?
Yes, that is indeed on signage on I-10 East:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/417671_10100916402608653_438420241_n.jpg
Amazing, and not in a good way. Thanks for the link.
I like Artesia as a control city at the 91/5 interchange.
We have the same issue in Florida for I-95 and I-10. Miami is used from just south of Jacksonville and then soon as you cross the Indian River County Line it changes to West Palm Beach still hundreds of miles away to Miami.
On I-10 you have Lake City used EB starting at Tallahassee and then it mysteriously changes to Jacksonville somewhere around Greenville, too soon before Lake City.
This is not uncommon among highways. Heck look at I-95 between Fayetteville and Rocky Mount switching many times and since I-40 has been completed to Wilmington from Raliegh, Benson has been added to the mix in places there as well.
Quote from: kkt on May 31, 2012, 04:15:59 PM
Do they really use "other desert cities"? Is that marking the way to Baghdad, Casablanca, Kashgar, or Alice Springs?
I actually live about 20 minutes from the "other Desert Cities" sign and yes it does. I heard it was put in place for all the Coachella Valley Cities, plus for cities along old US 99. Others say it is just to omit Phoenix.
Also they use "Beach Cities" on 91 west.
The non-capitalized "other" makes it even worse IMO.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on May 31, 2012, 08:03:52 PM
Also they use "Beach Cities" on 91 west.
Yes, because as we all know, the beaches in Southern California can only be reached from the 91.
How about CA-99 still using Los Angeles as a control city and US-395 using San Diego as a control city despite the fact neither route reaches said cities? (Even though they did historically.)
I've also always found that I-405 being called the "San Diego Freeway" was a bit misleading.
Quote from: Quillz on June 02, 2012, 04:22:00 AM
How about CA-99 still using Los Angeles as a control city and US-395 using San Diego as a control city despite the fact neither route reaches said cities? (Even though they did historically.)
I've also always found that I-405 being called the "San Diego Freeway" was a bit misleading.
In the case of the former...it's only a one-number switch now for both of those (99 to 5, 395 to 15). Not as egregious as, say, Route 120 in Manteca being signed westbound for "San Francisco" (requiring 4 number switches - 120 to 5, 5 to 205, 205 to 580, 580 to 80).
In the latter, the idea I think is that 405 is a bypass route of Los Angeles and Santa Ana, so travelers from up north would take 405 if they were going to San Diego and did not want to pass through LA.
Quote from: TheStranger on June 02, 2012, 03:26:13 PM
Quote from: Quillz on June 02, 2012, 04:22:00 AM
How about CA-99 still using Los Angeles as a control city and US-395 using San Diego as a control city despite the fact neither route reaches said cities? (Even though they did historically.)
I've also always found that I-405 being called the "San Diego Freeway" was a bit misleading.
In the case of the former...it's only a one-number switch now for both of those (99 to 5, 395 to 15). Not as egregious as, say, Route 120 in Manteca being signed westbound for "San Francisco" (requiring 4 number switches - 120 to 5, 5 to 205, 205 to 580, 580 to 80).
In the latter, the idea I think is that 405 is a bypass route of Los Angeles and Santa Ana, so travelers from up north would take 405 if they were going to San Diego and did not want to pass through LA.
So if the control city for CA-99 is not Los Angeles, what is it? Wheeler Ridge? Grapevine? Of course it makes sense for those cities to remain even though the numbers change, because the majority of people on the route are heading to those cities, or at least towards those metropolitan areas.
An alternative might be what they do in the UK - put cities not on the route in parentheses:
CA-99
Bakersfield
(Los Angeles)
Quote from: DTComposer on June 02, 2012, 06:34:40 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 02, 2012, 03:26:13 PM
Quote from: Quillz on June 02, 2012, 04:22:00 AM
How about CA-99 still using Los Angeles as a control city and US-395 using San Diego as a control city despite the fact neither route reaches said cities? (Even though they did historically.)
I've also always found that I-405 being called the "San Diego Freeway" was a bit misleading.
In the case of the former...it's only a one-number switch now for both of those (99 to 5, 395 to 15). Not as egregious as, say, Route 120 in Manteca being signed westbound for "San Francisco" (requiring 4 number switches - 120 to 5, 5 to 205, 205 to 580, 580 to 80).
In the latter, the idea I think is that 405 is a bypass route of Los Angeles and Santa Ana, so travelers from up north would take 405 if they were going to San Diego and did not want to pass through LA.
So if the control city for CA-99 is not Los Angeles, what is it? Wheeler Ridge? Grapevine? Of course it makes sense for those cities to remain even though the numbers change, because the majority of people on the route are heading to those cities, or at least towards those metropolitan areas.
An alternative might be what they do in the UK - put cities not on the route in parentheses:
CA-99
Bakersfield
(Los Angeles)
Los Angeles should be the control city south of Bakersfield. N to S from Sacramento: Stockton, Modesto, Fresno, Bakersfield, Los Angeles.
Perhaps control cities not directly served by the highway could be prefixed with "TO." CA-99, for example, could have its southern control city as "TO Los Angeles." Of course, it's probably making a mountain out of a molehill.
Quote from: Quillz on June 03, 2012, 12:53:47 AM
Perhaps control cities not directly served by the highway could be prefixed with "TO." CA-99, for example, could have its southern control city as "TO Los Angeles." Of course, it's probably making a mountain out of a molehill.
I think it would be making a Mountain out of a Mole Hill. CA 14 South has Los Angeles as a Control City. I'm guessing dating back to US 6. It's just the main major city your headed towards.
Even in Las Vegas I-15 South is Signed as Los Angeles even though I-15 doesn't go to Los Angeles. Probably dating back to US 91, but also to serve tourist traffic I presume.
Even on CA 86 North Los Angeles is listed, also in San Diego on I-805 North Los Angeles is listed as well.
After reading some posts I wonder if indirect Control Cities listed are something most people are not fans of.
For Example,
Los Angeles
CA 99 to I-5
CA 14 to I-5
CA 86 to I-10
I-15 to I-10 or I-15 to CA 210 to I-605 to I-10
San Diego
US 395 to I-15
CA 74 to CA 371 to CA 79 to I-15
Quote from: Interstate Trav on June 03, 2012, 01:16:02 AM
After reading some posts I wonder if indirect Control Cities listed are something most people are not fans of.
For Example,
Los Angeles
CA 99 to I-5
CA 14 to I-5
CA 86 to I-10
I-15 to I-10 or I-15 to CA 210 to I-605 to I-10
San Diego
US 395 to I-15
CA 74 to CA 371 to CA 79 to I-15
Years ago, the old US routes that preceded the interstates did actually go the city mentioned in some cases. Los Angeles is used on I-40 cause US 66 went there in the day. AZDOT confirmed it in an actual email sent to me years ago. I assume Caltrans is using the same principle on their signs.
San Diego is used on US 395 cause it originally went there before I-15.
Its not so bad when you have one road leading to another, but when you have to take multiple routes it could raise some contraversy in some.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 03, 2012, 01:54:34 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on June 03, 2012, 01:16:02 AM
After reading some posts I wonder if indirect Control Cities listed are something most people are not fans of.
For Example,
Los Angeles
CA 99 to I-5
CA 14 to I-5
CA 86 to I-10
I-15 to I-10 or I-15 to CA 210 to I-605 to I-10
San Diego
US 395 to I-15
CA 74 to CA 371 to CA 79 to I-15
Years ago, the old US routes that preceded the interstates did actually go the city mentioned in some cases. Los Angeles is used on I-40 cause US 66 went there in the day. AZDOT confirmed it in an actual email sent to me years ago. I assume Caltrans is using the same principle on their signs.
San Diego is used on US 395 cause it originally went there before I-15.
To add to that, Route 14 is the former US 6 (which did go to downtown LA) and before that, the 1934-era Route 7 (which went to LAX).
Route 74 is signed for San Diego? That one is as odd as Route 120 being signed for San Francisco.
I think a one-switch indirect is fine, i.e. the I-5 northbound control city of Sacramento being used from 101/170 (Hollywood Freeway) north and 405 north.
Quote from: Quillz on June 02, 2012, 04:22:00 AM
How about CA-99 still using Los Angeles as a control city and US-395 using San Diego as a control city despite the fact neither route reaches said cities? (Even though they did historically.)
I've also always found that I-405 being called the "San Diego Freeway" was a bit misleading.
What about 580 EB at 205? Should it say "Westley"? Or just TO I-5?
Quote from: JustDrive on June 05, 2012, 03:17:19 PM
Quote from: Quillz on June 02, 2012, 04:22:00 AM
How about CA-99 still using Los Angeles as a control city and US-395 using San Diego as a control city despite the fact neither route reaches said cities? (Even though they did historically.)
I've also always found that I-405 being called the "San Diego Freeway" was a bit misleading.
What about 580 EB at 205? Should it say "Westley"? Or just TO I-5?
I think the usage of "Los Angeles" is an artifact of when that route was planned as I-5W (so a bit understandable)...
but Fresno is the more intriguing choice. Wouldn't 205-5-120 to 99 south be the best all-freeway route to get to Fresno? Any other route would involve a surface road, i.e. 580-5-152-99, or 580-5-J1-180.
True, but one thing I never got was why L.A. was not signed on 580 until the 205 split. The only other mention of L.A. in the Bay Area (aside from 101 south of 880) was on the EB Bay Bridge right before the Maze. Otherwise, all you see is "Hayward" and "Stockton." Even Fresno isn't mentioned until Livermore.
Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2012, 06:02:33 PM
but Fresno is the more intriguing choice. Wouldn't 205-5-120 to 99 south be the best all-freeway route to get to Fresno? Any other route would involve a surface road, i.e. 580-5-152-99, or 580-5-J1-180.
My experience has been that, even though 152 to 99 is only expressway, it's still preferable to 120 to 99 - you avoid the traffic through Manteca/Modesto/Turlock/Merced. Once the 152 bypass of Los Banos is built it will be even faster.
Ultimately, isn't the point of control cities to guide the majority of non-local travelers to where they are headed? If the majority of out-of-towners on CA-99 south are ultimately headed to Los Angeles, why shouldn't it be a control city?
Of course, I've always supported two control cities - one immediate, one distant, so I-5 northbound would be something like:
Chula Vista/San Diego
Downtown San Diego
Oceanside/Los Angeles
Santa Ana/Los Angeles
Los Angeles
Santa Clarita/Sacramento
Bakersfield (why not?) or San Francisco/Sacramento
San Francisco/Sacramento
Stockton/Sacramento
Sacramento
Woodland/Redding
Redding/Portland
etc.
Much the same way US-101 is signed, with Los Angeles or San Francisco paired with an intermediate destination (San Jose, Salinas, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Ventura).
A couple I agree with here, swapping Sacramento with Bakersfield or Santa Ana with Los Angeles.
Or they could even sign Simi Valley/San Fernando for the 118 which I think is only signed once as Simi, North 5 to West 118 is the only one I can recall thats even signed.
Interstate 210 should have Monrovia as its major control city
I think there's too many cities along the 210 right there to give it any of those. Monrovia only has 2 exits off the 210 anyways. Myrtle & Mountain. Until you get to Rancho Cucamonga the most anyone has is 4 exits. Its really compacted with communities which by that point you might as well just give it San Bernardino
Yeah I know I was kidding
OK, here's a crack at some of the major routes, listed as:
From highway**Control Cities**To highway
The use of highway junctions gives approximate locations, which would be locally refined.
I tried to strike a balance between listing important regional destinations and not switching control cities every 10 miles.
Also, just because a city was listed in one direction doesn't mean it had to be listed in the other direction.
I-5 North
Mexico Border**Chula Vista/San Diego**CA-54
CA-54**Downtown San Diego**CA-163
CA-163**Oceanside/Los Angeles**CA-76
CA-76**Santa Ana/Los Angeles**CA-57 —I'm ok with using Anaheim instead of Santa Ana
CA-57**Los Angeles**US-101
US-101**Santa Clarita/Sacramento**CA-126
CA-126**Bakersfield/Sacramento**CA-99
CA-99**San Francisco/Sacramento**I-580
I-580**Stockton/Sacramento**CA-4
CA-4**Sacramento**CA-160
CA-160**Downtown Sacramento**US-50
US-50**Sacramento Airport/Woodland**CA-70
CA-70**Woodland/Redding**CA-113
CA-113**Red Bluff/Redding**CA-36
CA-36**Redding/Portland**CA-44
CA-44**Yreka/Portland**CA-3
CA-3**Medford/Portland**State Line
I-5 South
State Line**Yreka/Sacramento**CA-3
CA-3**Redding/Sacramento**CA-44
CA-44**Red Bluff/Sacramento**CA-36
CA-36**Woodland/Sacramento**CA-113
CA-113**Sacramento Airport/Sacramento**CA-70
CA-70**Sacramento**I-80
I-80**Downtown Sacramento**US-50
US-50**Stockton/Los Angeles**CA-4
CA-4**San Francisco/Los Angeles**I-205
I-205**Los Angeles**CA-99
CA-99**Santa Clarita/Los Angeles**CA-126
CA-126**Los Angeles**I-110
I-110**Santa Ana/San Diego**CA-57 —I'm ok with using Anaheim instead of Santa Ana
CA-57**San Diego**CA-1
CA-1**Oceanside/San Diego**CA-76
CA-76**San Diego**I-8
I-8**Downtown San Diego**CA-163
CA-163**Chula Vista**CA-54
CA-54**International Border**Mexico Border
US-101 North
I-5**Downtown Los Angeles**CA-110
CA-110**Hollywood/Ventura**CA-2
CA-2**Ventura/Santa Barbara**CA-33
CA-33**Santa Barbara/San Francisco**CA-225
CA-225**San Luis Obispo/San Francisco**CA-1
CA-1**Salinas/San Francisco**CA-183
CA-183**San Jose/San Francisco**I-280
I-280**Palo Alto/San Francisco**CA-109
CA-109**San Mateo/San Francisco**CA-92
CA-92**SF Airport/San Francisco**I-380
I-380**San Francisco**I-280
I-280**Downtown San Francisco**I-80
I-80**Golden Gate Bridge**CA-1
CA-1**San Rafael/Santa Rosa**CA-1
CA-1**Santa Rosa/Eureka**CA-12
CA-12**Ukiah/Eureka**CA-253
CA-253**Eureka**CA-255
CA-255**Crescent City/Coos Bay**US-199
US-199**Brookings/Coos Bay**State Line
US-101 South
State Line**Crescent City/Eureka**US-199
US-199**Eureka/San Francisco**CA-255
CA-255**Ukiah/San Francisco**CA-253
CA-253**Santa Rosa/San Francisco**CA-12
CA-12**San Rafael/San Francisco**CA-1
CA-1**San Francisco**CA-1
CA-1**Downtown San Francisco**I-80
I-80**SF Airport/San Jose**I-380
I-380**San Mateo/San Jose**CA-92
CA-92**Palo Alto/San Jose**CA-109
CA-109**San Jose**I-880
I-880**Gilroy/Los Angeles**CA-152
CA-152**Salinas/Monterey**CA-156 — I didn't use Los Angeles here so as not to confuse drivers who want to use CA-152 to I-5
CA-156**Salinas/Los Angeles**CA-183
CA-183**San Luis Obispo/Los Angeles**CA-1
CA-1**Santa Barbara/Los Angeles**CA-225
CA-225**Ventura/Los Angeles**CA-33
CA-33**Los Angeles**CA-27
CA-27**Hollywood/Downtown Los Angeles**CA-2
CA-2**Downtown Los Angeles**I-10
I-10**Santa Ana/San Diego**I-5
I-80 East
US-101**Bay Bridge/Oakland**Bay Bridge
Bay Bridge**Oakland**I-880
I-880**Berkeley/Sacramento**CA-13
CA-13**Vallejo/Sacramento**I-780
I-780**Sacramento**US-50
US-50**Roseville/Reno**CA-65
CA-65**Auburn/Reno**CA-49
CA-49**Truckee/Reno**CA-89
CA-89**Reno**State Line
I-80 West
State Line**Truckee/Sacramento**CA-89
CA-89**Auburn/Sacramento**CA-49
CA-49**Roseville/Sacramento**CA-65
CA-65**Sacramento**Bus I-80
Bus-I-80**San Francisco**I-5
I-5**Davis/San Francisco**CA-113
CA-113**San Francisco**I-680
I-680**Vallejo/San Francisco**CA-780
CA-780**Oakland/San Francisco**I-880
I-880**Bay Bridge/San Francisco**Bay Bridge
Bay Bridge**San Francisco**US-101
I-10 East
CA-1**Los Angeles**I-405
I-405**Downtown Los Angeles**I-110
I-110**Santa Ana/San Bernardino**I-5
I-5**San Bernardino**I-5 — this is the overlap section
I-5**El Monte/San Bernardino**I-605
I-605**Pomona/San Bernardino**CA-71
CA-71**Ontario/San Bernardino**CA-83
CA-83**San Bernardino**I-215
I-215**Redlands/Palm Springs**CA-38
CA-38**Palm Springs/Indio**CA-111
CA-111**Indio/Phoenix**CA-86S
CA-86S**Blythe/Phoenix**US-95
US-95**Phoenix**State Line
I-10 West
State Line**Blythe/Los Angeles**US-95
US-95**Indio/Los Angeles**CA-86S
CA-86S**San Bernardino/Los Angeles**I-215
I-215**Ontario/Los Angeles**CA-83
CA-83**Los Angeles**I-5
I-5**Santa Ana/Santa Monica**I-5 — this is the overlap section
I-5**Santa Monica**CA-1
Quote from: DTComposer on June 06, 2012, 01:37:07 AM
OK, here's a crack at some of the major routes, listed as:
From highway**Control Cities**To highway
The use of highway junctions gives approximate locations, which would be locally refined.
I tried to strike a balance between listing important regional destinations and not switching control cities every 10 miles.
Also, just because a city was listed in one direction doesn't mean it had to be listed in the other direction.
I like this concept. I always thought that a good way to do control cities in CA is to have two: the "last large suburb" within the metro area, and the next city. So from downtown San Diego, the "outer suburbs" would be Oceanside, Escondido, El Cajon, and Chula Vista, and the "next city" would be Los Angeles, Riverside, El Centro [or Yuma?], or Tijuana.
The biggest challenge with control cities in CA, IMO, is the following: there are a lot of freeways that go from one part of a city to another, or from one part of a metro area to another, and most of the time, the "best way" through a metro area changes hourly. I-605 in LA is a good example of this - it doesn't really go anywhere notable, and is mostly useful as a connector for local commuters, or as a sometimes-good route for long-distance traffic to use. (Sometimes when I drive from San Diego to north of LA, a "quick" route involves driving the entire length of 605!)
The other challenge is handling San Francisco/LA traffic. To me, it's silly to list Sacramento and not San Francisco as a control city on I-5 north of LA. San Francisco (actually, the entire Bay Area) is a much bigger destination than Sac. Yes, I-5 doesn't go there, but I'd guess that if you survey the cars heading north through the Grapevine, there are a lot more headed to the Bay Area than Sacramento. (And yes, the quickest route from Gilroy to LA is almost always 152 to 5, and not 101.)
Quote from: DTComposer on June 06, 2012, 01:37:07 AM
OK, here's a crack at some of the major routes, listed as:
From highway**Control Cities**To highway
The use of highway junctions gives approximate locations, which would be locally refined.
I tried to strike a balance between listing important regional destinations and not switching control cities every 10 miles.
Also, just because a city was listed in one direction doesn't mean it had to be listed in the other direction.
Assuming these control cities are meant to be used on pull through signs, you can eliminate everything east of CA-49 because IIRC, there are no overhead pull through signs on I-80. I'm pretty sure this condition exists on other highways as well. Intersecting highways generally use ground-mounted signs where more than one control city tends to clutter the sign. Other than that, that's a pretty complete list.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on June 03, 2012, 01:12:42 AM
Even in Las Vegas I-15 South is Signed as Los Angeles even though I-15 doesn't go to Los Angeles. Probably dating back to US 91, but also to serve tourist traffic I presume.
hell, LA is signed on I-40 in Flagstaff, dating back to the US-66 days. it was signed as far as San Jon, New Mexico (1058 miles or something!) until about 2006.
Quote from: DTComposer on June 02, 2012, 06:34:40 PMAn alternative might be what they do in the UK - put cities not on the route in parentheses:
CA-99
Bakersfield
(Los Angeles)
Did do in the UK - until 1994. Here (http://goo.gl/maps/eEWs)'s a sign that survived (that shouldn't have, given that the A34 was moved to a bypass). Here (http://goo.gl/maps/NaKR)'s a more recent sign and here (http://goo.gl/maps/khnn)'s a different way of doing it.
I'd argue, however, that LA is on the CA-99 route (just as Crianlarich is on the A84 route, but beyond the end of it; ditto Southampton and the A34). However, if that first sign was still on the A34, I'd have Basingstoke in brackets - or Winchester and Southampton if the sign was correct and said A339 at the top.
Just make sure that you put the control cities in true order when you post them on a sign. PLEASE! They do not do this in a few spots in the San Francisco Bay Area. For instance, on I-80 in Fairfield, at the Air Base Parkway interchange, the eastbound pull through sign says "Sacramento/Vacaville", and westbound it reads "San Francisco/Vallejo". This scenario also occurs in several locations on I-680 through Walnut Creek, where the pull through signs going southbound read "San Jose/Dublin" and northbound they read "Sacramento/Concord". And the signs for CA-24 read "Oakland/Lafayette".
Quote from: jrouse on June 07, 2012, 10:27:52 AM
Just make sure that you put the control cities in true order when you post them on a sign. PLEASE! They do not do this in a few spots in the San Francisco Bay Area. For instance, on I-80 in Fairfield, at the Air Base Parkway interchange, the eastbound pull through sign says "Sacramento/Vacaville", and westbound it reads "San Francisco/Vallejo". This scenario also occurs in several locations on I-680 through Walnut Creek, where the pull through signs going southbound read "San Jose/Dublin" and northbound they read "Sacramento/Concord". And the signs for CA-24 read "Oakland/Lafayette".
Interesting. So if there are multiple control cities, the closer city gets listed first? I always thought the "primary" city would be first followed by a "secondary" city, hence the arrangements you gave (Sacramento/Vacaville, San Francisco, Vallejo, San Jose/Dublin, etc).
Quote from: myosh_tino on June 07, 2012, 01:42:23 PM
Quote from: jrouse on June 07, 2012, 10:27:52 AM
Just make sure that you put the control cities in true order when you post them on a sign. PLEASE! They do not do this in a few spots in the San Francisco Bay Area. For instance, on I-80 in Fairfield, at the Air Base Parkway interchange, the eastbound pull through sign says "Sacramento/Vacaville", and westbound it reads "San Francisco/Vallejo". This scenario also occurs in several locations on I-680 through Walnut Creek, where the pull through signs going southbound read "San Jose/Dublin" and northbound they read "Sacramento/Concord". And the signs for CA-24 read "Oakland/Lafayette".
Interesting. So if there are multiple control cities, the closer city gets listed first? I always thought the "primary" city would be first followed by a "secondary" city, hence the arrangements you gave (Sacramento/Vacaville, San Francisco, Vallejo, San Jose/Dublin, etc).
I'm used to closer-city first, i.e.
"Santa Monica
LAX Airport" on 405
"Vallejo
Sacramento" on 80 east near the MacArthur Maze
"Hayward
Stockton" on 580 east past the MacArthur Maze
"Alameda
San Jose" on 880 south from the MacArthur Maze on
I wonder when that became the standard, as opposed to more-important-destination first.
Quote from: english si on June 06, 2012, 01:38:59 PM
Did do in the UK - until 1994.
Oops. 1994 was the last time I was in the UK, so there you go.
Quote from: english si on June 06, 2012, 01:38:59 PM
Here (http://goo.gl/maps/NaKR)'s a more recent sign and here (http://goo.gl/maps/khnn)'s a different way of doing it.
I do like how they put the route number on top of the mileage sign, and can list more than three cities.
Quote from: DTComposer on June 07, 2012, 02:31:55 PM
Quote from: english si on June 06, 2012, 01:38:59 PM
Here (http://goo.gl/maps/NaKR)'s a more recent sign and here (http://goo.gl/maps/khnn)'s a different way of doing it.
I do like how they put the route number on top of the mileage sign, and can list more than three cities.
Also a common practice in Australia as depicted here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=575.msg151710#msg151710). I don't understand why the US doesn't incorporate their route markers into their mileage signs, or incorporating them into directional signage like this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ozroads.com.au%2FNSW%2FRouteNumbering%2FState%2520Routes%2F135%2F01.JPG&hash=0af8f4939e9788b13d0f4bbae0ada2ec5f7306c8)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ozroads.com.au%2FNSW%2FRouteNumbering%2FState%2520Routes%2F86%2F71.JPG&hash=216acb49220801574d37f0fea92e6252513c2773)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ozroads.com.au%2FNSW%2FRouteNumbering%2FState%2520Routes%2F83%2F33.JPG&hash=e61f9965d5e695cc103450743eea836b5fa37653)
the black sign is super awesome. how many of those are still left in Australia? I'm guessing they're more prevalent than in the US.
An interesting note about "other Desert Cities"–apparently that sign has permeated non-roadgeek culture enough to be used as the title of a Broadway play set in Palm Springs!
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 07, 2012, 09:13:06 PM
the black sign is super awesome. how many of those are still left in Australia? I'm guessing they're more prevalent than in the US.
They're mainly found in county areas usually off the main highways, if you know where to look.
Quote from: TheStranger on June 07, 2012, 01:49:32 PM
I'm used to closer-city first, i.e.
"Santa Monica
LAX Airport" on 405
"Vallejo
Sacramento" on 80 east near the MacArthur Maze
"Hayward
Stockton" on 580 east past the MacArthur Maze
"Alameda
San Jose" on 880 south from the MacArthur Maze on
I wonder when that became the standard, as opposed to more-important-destination first.
Maybe it's because that would be the order in which you'd reach them -- e.g. Alameda first, then San Jose. It's at least consistent with how the mileage signs display the cities (i.e. Alameda is listed above San Jose).
Quote from: national highway 1 on June 08, 2012, 12:43:15 AM
They're mainly found in county areas usually off the main highways, if you know where to look.
I'd better get my ass to Australia before they all vanish!
any even older standard signs left, than the black sign whose layout matches the later green? I seem to remember a 2002 or so photo somewhere of a surviving white sign, but I do not recall if it is Australia.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 08, 2012, 10:09:38 AM
Quote from: national highway 1 on June 08, 2012, 12:43:15 AM
They're mainly found in county areas usually off the main highways, if you know where to look.
I'd better get my ass to Australia before they all vanish!
any even older standard signs left, than the black sign whose layout matches the later green? I seem to remember a 2002 or so photo somewhere of a surviving white sign, but I do not recall if it is Australia.
Over the next month I'm going to chart where all the old signs are and figure out the best path to catch a bunch of them. I've got a few dozen possible old signs bookmarked...
Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2012, 03:36:54 AM
Route 74 is signed for San Diego? That one is as odd as Route 120 being signed for San Francisco.
120 W having a control of San Francisco is not too odd when you consider the quick linkage between 120/I-5/I-205 and I-580.
Quote from: CenVlyDave on June 10, 2012, 12:05:47 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2012, 03:36:54 AM
Route 74 is signed for San Diego? That one is as odd as Route 120 being signed for San Francisco.
120 W having a control of San Francisco is not too odd when you consider the quick linkage between 120/I-5/I-205 and I-580.
I do agree with that.
Quote from: bulkyorled on June 05, 2012, 11:20:02 PM
A couple I agree with here, swapping Sacramento with Bakersfield or Santa Ana with Los Angeles.
Or they could even sign Simi Valley/San Fernando for the 118 which I think is only signed once as Simi, North 5 to West 118 is the only one I can recall thats even signed.
Isn't there na overhead sign on 23 North at 118 east that Signs 118 East towards Los Angeles?
I think on 118, it should be
118 East
*23 to 5* Los Angeles
*5 to 210* Pasadena
118 West
*210 to 23* Simi Valley Moorpark
I wouldn't sign Ventura.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on June 10, 2012, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: CenVlyDave on June 10, 2012, 12:05:47 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2012, 03:36:54 AM
Route 74 is signed for San Diego? That one is as odd as Route 120 being signed for San Francisco.
120 W having a control of San Francisco is not too odd when you consider the quick linkage between 120/I-5/I-205 and I-580.
I do agree with that.
I get the concept, but that's still what, 2-3 mainline switches to get to the destination, and over 4 route numbers? I think of 120/205/east-west 580 in the same trajectory as 238, not the MacArthur Freeway.
The way I see it, route numbers should not affect control (and other signed) cities. SR 120 should be signed for Frisco whether it's a single number (as was almost true in the days of US 50) or ten.
Quote from: TheStranger on June 02, 2012, 03:26:13 PM
Quote from: Quillz on June 02, 2012, 04:22:00 AM
How about CA-99 still using Los Angeles as a control city and US-395 using San Diego as a control city despite the fact neither route reaches said cities? (Even though they did historically.)
I've also always found that I-405 being called the "San Diego Freeway" was a bit misleading.
In the case of the former...it's only a one-number switch now for both of those (99 to 5, 395 to 15). Not as egregious as, say, Route 120 in Manteca being signed westbound for "San Francisco" (requiring 4 number switches - 120 to 5, 5 to 205, 205 to 580, 580 to 80).
In the latter, the idea I think is that 405 is a bypass route of Los Angeles and Santa Ana, so travelers from up north would take 405 if they were going to San Diego and did not want to pass through LA.
It could be because when I-405 was first drawn on a map (long before it was built), the San Fernando Valley was still pretty rural in spots. The same with Orange County; much of that area was rural well into the 1970s and even 1980s.
Quote from: Interstatefan78 on October 08, 2012, 01:17:47 AM
To me I-80 East should have Reno,NV and Hackensack,NJ this will help long distance drivers from the SF Bay Area to show that I-80 East is the Main Route to Bergen County,NJ and Monroe County,PA
First of all, that is Fictional, so please limit your discussion to Fictional Highways in this forum.
Second of all, this is the 15th time you've posted that. Enough. We heard you.
Quote from: blawp on May 31, 2012, 07:03:57 PM
I like Artesia as a control city at the 91/5 interchange.
So does the Greater Metropolitan Artesia area.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on May 31, 2012, 08:03:52 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 31, 2012, 04:15:59 PM
Do they really use "other desert cities"? Is that marking the way to Baghdad, Casablanca, Kashgar, or Alice Springs?
I actually live about 20 minutes from the "other Desert Cities" sign and yes it does. I heard it was put in place for all the Coachella Valley Cities, plus for cities along old US 99. Others say it is just to omit Phoenix.
Also they use "Beach Cities" on 91 west.
Coachella Valley Cities would be better, I believe. I wonder if Anza would be considered one of those ?
Quote from: LA_MetroMan on December 06, 2012, 11:37:18 AM
Coachella Valley Cities
I don't think that would look right on a sign. I'd rather even have Blythe, if CA is so xenophobic that they will not acknowledge the existence of Phoenix.
the great Phoenix growth was well underway by the 50s (1950 census: ~100,000; 1960 census: ~400,000) so even at that point there was no real reason to omit it as a control city on a new highway with transcontinental intent. I can understand 30s signs on US-60/70 featuring Blythe, but by the 1950s they should have switched over.
I think the other Desert Cities sign looks fine. Given how much more population you hit before Indio, listing a City in the next state that is about 280 miles away doesn't seem to be that important. Phoenix takes over once you reach Indio.
Other Desert Cities includes Indio, Coachella, Salton Sea, El Centro, Brawley, maybe even Yuma, not to mention all the Coachella Valley Cities, and the Small towns along Ca 62. So in a way it fits, and as most seem to not like it, it does get a lot of attention. So I think it should stay.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on December 06, 2012, 08:49:15 PM
I think the other Desert Cities sign looks fine. Given how much more population you hit before Indio, listing a City in the next state that is about 280 miles away doesn't seem to be that important. Phoenix takes over once you reach Indio.
Other Desert Cities includes Indio, Coachella, Salton Sea, El Centro, Brawley, maybe even Yuma, not to mention all the Coachella Valley Cities, and the Small towns along Ca 62. So in a way it fits, and as most seem to not like it, it does get a lot of attention. So I think it should stay.
280 miles though...that's not particularly long distance for a control city in California, at least the in-state ones.
Los Angeles gets signed as a control city a good 400 or so miles north along US 101 southbound, and 385 miles north in the Natomas district of Sacramento.
Phoenix should be the control city once one gets to San Bernardino at the I-10/I-215 interchange. The "desert cities" are just small time affairs, not major metro areas. Going N/S on 101, I-5 and 99, CalTrans uses major metro areas and sometimes a secondary city. That works out nicely in my eyes so that pattern is what makes sense to me for I-10. To cover the lesser cities, CalTrans uses mileage signs with three cities listed and the control city is the bottom one. That leaves two slots open.
Rick
Quote from: TheStranger on December 06, 2012, 09:33:24 PM
280 miles though...that's not particularly long distance for a control city in California, at least the in-state ones.
I believe it is at Redding where Portland becomes the control city on I-5 north. 118 miles to the state line, and another ~300 to Portland after that.
Some additional observations about "other Desert Cities":
* I believe it was originally Robert Cruickshank (in MTR) who justified it on the basis that it was a reference to the other Coachella Valley cities besides Indio. The Coachella Valley is the same basin that includes the Salton Sea and the Coachella Valley cities, which are strung along SR 86S south of its interchange with I-10, include Indio, Coachella, Thermal, and Mecca. The "Indio/other Desert Cities" legend is used as a pull-through message on a full-width gantry which contains the eastbound exit direction sign for SR 111, signed for Palm Springs. Beyond Palm Springs, SR 111 follows an alignment parallel to I-10 to Indio and parallel to SR 86S south of Indio, so it is really an alternative route to the Coachella Valley cities--just not the preferred one for long-distance travel because it is a surface arterial, not a freeway like I-10 and SR 86S.
* Per the AASHTO control cities list, Indio flips over to Blythe (not Phoenix) as the next control city on eastbound I-10. This is another argument against "other Desert Cities" being a reference to Phoenix. The problem, however, is that the changeover is obscured by the fact that after Indio overhead assemblies with pull-through signs are no longer reasonably warranted. In combination with the fact that "other Desert Cities" is one of the pull-through destinations at an exit which also leads to the Coachella Valley cities, this makes it difficult to argue that it cannot reasonably be interpreted as a slighting reference to Phoenix.
* "Other Desert Cities" is now famous in its own right. A Google Images search for {I-10 other Desert Cities} turns up a play (not sure whether it had a Broadway run) among the first search results, well ahead of any pictures of the actual "other Desert Cities" pull-through signs. This means that, whatever objections may be made to "other Desert Cities" on the basis that it fails clearly to differentiate the Coachella Valley cities from major cities further east on I-10 like Phoenix, taking it off the signs would amount to destruction of a cultural property.
* Ironically enough, the same Google search turns up the following spoof sign ahead of all but one photo of one of the actual "other Desert Cities" signs. The city "dissed" in this case is Denver:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabre-roads.org.uk%2Fgallery%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10050%2Fi-70-kanorado-and-desert-cities-provocation.png&hash=f22363759f6a5c46726abed1e84f58a6c514b09b)
Quote from: nexus73 on December 06, 2012, 11:28:24 PM
Phoenix should be the control city once one gets to San Bernardino at the I-10/I-215 interchange. The "desert cities" are just small time affairs, not major metro areas. Going N/S on 101, I-5 and 99, CalTrans uses major metro areas and sometimes a secondary city. That works out nicely in my eyes so that pattern is what makes sense to me for I-10. To cover the lesser cities, CalTrans uses mileage signs with three cities listed and the control city is the bottom one. That leaves two slots open.
Rick
Actually in reference to north and south routes, I-15 lists Barstow as a Control point before changing to Las Vegas, which after the Inland empire is the next major City, as Barstow is not a major city. But also after Baker Salt Lake City is listed with Las Vegas at about 500 miles away.
I understand your point, given how much weekend traffic is headed to the Coachella Valley, Palm Springs, and other Desert Resorts, I don't think it is wrong to not list Phoenix until Indio.
I just think given that I-10 used to be joined with US 99 and they spilt in Indio and El Centro, and points along I-8 and along route 86 are important too, that other desert cities was a way of including them all. Sort of how some cites just list "suburbs" when heading out of town.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 07, 2012, 11:08:54 AM
Some additional observations about "other Desert Cities":
* I believe it was originally Robert Cruickshank (in MTR) who justified it on the basis that it was a reference to the other Coachella Valley cities besides Indio. The Coachella Valley is the same basin that includes the Salton Sea and the Coachella Valley cities, which are strung along SR 86S south of its interchange with I-10, include Indio, Coachella, Thermal, and Mecca. The "Indio/other Desert Cities" legend is used as a pull-through message on a full-width gantry which contains the eastbound exit direction sign for SR 111, signed for Palm Springs. Beyond Palm Springs, SR 111 follows an alignment parallel to I-10 to Indio and parallel to SR 86S south of Indio, so it is really an alternative route to the Coachella Valley cities--just not the preferred one for long-distance travel because it is a surface arterial, not a freeway like I-10 and SR 86S.
* Per the AASHTO control cities list, Indio flips over to Blythe (not Phoenix) as the next control city on eastbound I-10. This is another argument against "other Desert Cities" being a reference to Phoenix. The problem, however, is that the changeover is obscured by the fact that after Indio overhead assemblies with pull-through signs are no longer reasonably warranted. In combination with the fact that "other Desert Cities" is one of the pull-through destinations at an exit which also leads to the Coachella Valley cities, this makes it difficult to argue that it cannot reasonably be interpreted as a slighting reference to Phoenix.
* "Other Desert Cities" is now famous in its own right. A Google Images search for {I-10 other Desert Cities} turns up a play (not sure whether it had a Broadway run) among the first search results, well ahead of any pictures of the actual "other Desert Cities" pull-through signs. This means that, whatever objections may be made to "other Desert Cities" on the basis that it fails clearly to differentiate the Coachella Valley cities from major cities further east on I-10 like Phoenix, taking it off the signs would amount to destruction of a cultural property.
* Ironically enough, the same Google search turns up the following spoof sign ahead of all but one photo of one of the actual "other Desert Cities" signs. The city "dissed" in this case is Denver:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabre-roads.org.uk%2Fgallery%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10050%2Fi-70-kanorado-and-desert-cities-provocation.png&hash=f22363759f6a5c46726abed1e84f58a6c514b09b)
Thanks for the info, i didn't know that,that is the first in depth explanation I ever heard about that sign. I see the point there, that all the Coachella Valley Traffic isn't just taking 111, a lot of it stays on I-10.
Similiar how on I-15 in Las Vegas, there used to be an overhead sign at the I-215 jct that said Las Vegas Blvd (the strip) next 4 exits.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 07, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on December 06, 2012, 09:33:24 PM
280 miles though...that's not particularly long distance for a control city in California, at least the in-state ones.
I believe it is at Redding where Portland becomes the control city on I-5 north. 118 miles to the state line, and another ~300 to Portland after that.
The first time Portland is mentioned on a mileage sign along I-5 northbound is between Stockton and Sacramento (see https://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_487_02.jpg ... this sign is still in place as of Nov 2012). However, Portland does not appear on overhead signs or guide signs on intersecting roads until Redding.
Regards,
Andy
Quote from: andy3175 on December 08, 2012, 01:36:28 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 07, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on December 06, 2012, 09:33:24 PM
280 miles though...that's not particularly long distance for a control city in California, at least the in-state ones.
I believe it is at Redding where Portland becomes the control city on I-5 north. 118 miles to the state line, and another ~300 to Portland after that.
The first time Portland is mentioned on a mileage sign along I-5 northbound is between Stockton and Sacramento (see https://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_487_02.jpg ... this sign is still in place as of Nov 2012). However, Portland does not appear on overhead signs or guide signs on intersecting roads until Redding.
Regards,
Andy
Portland does appear on overhead signs in Redding?
I looked through the pictures before and any overhead signs on aaroads only show the signs saying I-5 North or thru Traffic.