Hello folks! This is (kinda sorta) a spinoff of the "Control Cities in Your State" thread.
Are there any control city designations that, while not necessarily wrong, are quite odd in the grand scheme of things? Here's an example:
After recently expanding I-80 between Joliet and U.S. 45 (La Grange Road), the control city of I-355 was changed from "West Suburbs" to "Rockford." While there is a connection to I-90 from I-355 (via I-290), that particular tollway never comes anywhere close to Rockford, nor is there any mention of the city until you reach I-290, about seven miles before I-90 proper. On I-80, the real Rockford exit is about 60 miles from that point, via a more direct connection on I-39.
Do you have examples? Share them here. Thanks in advance for your responses.
Edited for correction, thanks to hobsini2 for the call out.
Yes, control cities are sometimes not on the route itself. This is nothing new.
Quote from: NE2 on July 09, 2012, 12:22:54 PM
Yes, control cities are sometimes not on the route itself. This is nothing new.
Oh, I agree with you. We have a classic example of that with I-65 north given Chicago. At the same time, this instance makes a little more sense because I-65 ends just short of the city, and there is signage to inform drivers of which routes can be taken to get to Chicago proper.
The I-355 example does none of the above, and that's what I was going for here.
As you said, this technique is nothing new. I just find Rockford to be too far out of the way to give designation for I-355, when Aurora (an I-88 control city) is much closer and requires less connections.
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on July 09, 2012, 12:17:35 PM
Hello folks! This is (kinda sorta) a spinoff of the "Control Cities in Your State" thread.
Are there any control city designations that, while not necessarily wrong, are quite odd in the grand scheme of things?
Not particularly odd, but the "control city" for westbound Alberta 43 in Grand Prairie is Alaska. True, you have British Columbia and for many travelers Yukon Territory between Grande Prairie and Alaska. But many Alaska-bound travelers stop in Grande Prairie (the last major city before the Alaska Highway, for people headed there from the east), and many travelers on AB 43 west of Grande Prairie are headed for Alaska, so the "control city" steers them in the right direction.
I just stopped there a few days ago on my way to the Northwest Territories. Grande Prairie isn't on the main route to NWT, and the control cities heading north of town are all within Alberta.
Several of the ones in West Virginia, which are only small towns or regionally important cities, and not of national significance or where a lot of through traffic would be headed.
Examples: Lewisburg on I-64, Parkersburg and Clarksburg on I-77 and I-79.
Should be Lexington, VA (if not Richmond) on I-64, Cambridge, OH on I-77 (intersection with I-70) and Morgantown (intersection with I-68) on I-79.
I-275 northbound has Flint as a control city, even though from the northern terminus of I-275, traffic would have to take I-96 west to US 23 north or I-696 east to I-75 north. Of course, if the freeway was completed as originally planned, it would connect to I-75 directly.
Delaware Water Gap :-D
San Fernando for I-210 Westbound
I'm not sure if "Oregon Coast" along US 101 would qualify, or "Other Desert Cities" on I-10 East.
<<Insert routine complaint about I-580 Stockton>>
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on July 09, 2012, 12:33:02 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 09, 2012, 12:22:54 PM
Yes, control cities are sometimes not on the route itself. This is nothing new.
Oh, I agree with you. We have a classic example of that with I-65 north given Chicago. At the same time, this instance makes a little more sense because I-65 ends just short of the city, and there is signage to inform drivers of which routes can be taken to get to Chicago proper.
The I-355 example does none of the above, and that's what I was going for here.
As you said, this technique is nothing new. I just find Rockford to be too far out of the way to give designation for I-355, when Aurora (an I-88 control city) is much closer and requires less connections.
It's pretty normal (in some states) to use a radial control city on a beltway.
Quote from: NE2 on July 09, 2012, 03:35:44 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on July 09, 2012, 12:33:02 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 09, 2012, 12:22:54 PM
Yes, control cities are sometimes not on the route itself. This is nothing new.
Oh, I agree with you. We have a classic example of that with I-65 north given Chicago. At the same time, this instance makes a little more sense because I-65 ends just short of the city, and there is signage to inform drivers of which routes can be taken to get to Chicago proper.
The I-355 example does none of the above, and that's what I was going for here.
As you said, this technique is nothing new. I just find Rockford to be too far out of the way to give designation for I-355, when Aurora (an I-88 control city) is much closer and requires less connections.
It's pretty normal (in some states) to use a radial control city on a beltway.
I as well was dismayed when i saw Rockford for 355 north at 80. NWI, there is actually one mention of Rockford before 90 at the 355/290 jct in Addison. And more to NE2's point, bypasses that use radial control cities are common however Rockford is IMO not acceptable. You have to exit twice to get to the Rockford area where as if you had say Aurora (which is a control city used in the area), that would be more acceptable since it is 1 exit off of 355. Going southbound, I actually agree with ISTHA using both Joliet and St Louis as you enter the tollway mainline at Army Trail Rd (BTW no other mention of St Louis until 55).
NJ often uses just "Phila" for Philadelphia.
In Houston, many of the freeways list "Downtown" as their control city within the city limits.
Quote from: NE2 on July 09, 2012, 03:35:44 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on July 09, 2012, 12:33:02 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 09, 2012, 12:22:54 PM
Yes, control cities are sometimes not on the route itself. This is nothing new.
Oh, I agree with you. We have a classic example of that with I-65 north given Chicago. At the same time, this instance makes a little more sense because I-65 ends just short of the city, and there is signage to inform drivers of which routes can be taken to get to Chicago proper.
The I-355 example does none of the above, and that's what I was going for here.
As you said, this technique is nothing new. I just find Rockford to be too far out of the way to give designation for I-355, when Aurora (an I-88 control city) is much closer and requires less connections.
It's pretty normal (in some states) to use a radial control city on a beltway.
Rockford still makes minimal sense for I-355. Schaumburg, home of Woodfield and many other destinations, would've been a far better choice.
Not so much odd, but it's funny how El Paso is the control city in southern Tuscon. Even though it's a whole state and a half away.
BigMatt
Quote from: Brandon on July 09, 2012, 08:37:30 PM
Rockford still makes minimal sense for I-355. Schaumburg, home of Woodfield and many other destinations, would've been a far better choice.
Control cities are based on geographic prominence. Rockford is easy to pick out on the map, while Schaumburg is one of many cookie-cutter suburbs.
Quote from: NE2 on July 09, 2012, 09:04:28 PM
Quote from: Brandon on July 09, 2012, 08:37:30 PM
Rockford still makes minimal sense for I-355. Schaumburg, home of Woodfield and many other destinations, would've been a far better choice.
Control cities are based on geographic prominence. Rockford is easy to pick out on the map, while Schaumburg is one of many cookie-cutter suburbs.
And I will discount your comment based on your sigs and the fact that you aren't even from here.
Usually towns with large tourist destinations get noted as some sort of control on a bgs.
*yawn*
US-97 South from Klamath Falls, OR
Weed
San Francisco
Quote from: drummer_evans_aki on July 09, 2012, 09:22:47 PM
US-97 South from Klamath Falls, OR
Weed
San Francisco
The two things hippies want most?
I-310 has Boutte and Houma, although Boutte isn't even a true town, and Houma is reached via 310 to US 90 to La. 182.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 09, 2012, 01:55:57 PM
I'm not sure if "Oregon Coast" along US 101 would qualify
And "Oregon Coast" is a fairly recent change; for many years it was "Ocean Beaches".
I-205 at its southern end has "Oregon City" as the control city, replacing The Dalles (via I-84) and Seattle (via I-5).
I-405 actually has Seattle and Salem as control cities. Nevermind the freeway is only about four miles long.
Oregon 217 southbound uses Salem...not sure why ODOT doesn't use Tigard (actually on 217) or Lake Oswego (right at the very end of 217). Northbound uses Beaverton...there were a few "Sunset Highway" control cities but those signs have been removed.
But my favorite is on U.S. 195 in Colfax, Washington - SR 26 to Seattle. Only about 300 miles away.
Nebraska has a few odd ones once you get off the interstate, at least on older signage. NE 92 west of its separation from US 275 has Grand Island. US 75 going south from its separation from US 34 has Falls City and US 34 going east from Lincoln and the other towns and highway intersections on its route has Nebraska City. OTOH, the first two are remnants of previous designations. When I was working for a courier company years ago here in Omaha, there was one particular driver from the Grand Island branch of my employer who actually swore by that route (NE 92 to US 30) over I-80.
Iowa, FWIW, as you leave Council Bluffs going east on Iowa 92, has Muscatine as its final control city, Muscatine being all the way across Iowa. Yeah, it's on Iowa 92, but you have to be totally not in a hurry to actually do that one.
QuoteBut my favorite is on U.S. 195 in Colfax, Washington - SR 26 to Seattle. Only about 300 miles away.
26 is the main northern Idaho-Seattle route. If you're going from Moscow/Pullman (where WSU is and lots of people going back and forth from Seattle) to Seattle, that's the way to go. Lewiston/Clarkston is about the dividing line- it's probably faster to take 12 from Clarkston but 26 from Lewiston if you're on the east side of town (you can pretty much go 65 the whole way on 26, but you have to slow way down on surprisingly windy SR 261 to get from US-12 to SR 26). I'm not sure why Google Maps hates SR 26 so much- it's a really good road.
I-10 uses Lordsburg and Deming as control cities in New Mexico, but for some reason this sign where 70 joins I-10 in Las Cruces just uses "Arizona"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fjunk%2Fworst%2F6.jpg&hash=d38910647fd925b3d4e46de1b05da99891439159)
Quote from: flowmotion on July 09, 2012, 02:12:26 PM
<<Insert routine complaint about I-580 Stockton>>
Doesn't I-580 also list Fresno at some point? That is even worse.
CA-55 heading north from I-5 uses Anaheim as a control city, even though to get to Downtown Anaheim, Disneyland, Anaheim Stadium, Anaheim Convention Center, etc., you should actually stay on I-5, as CA-55 takes you away from all of that.
Worse yet, if you continue on CA-55 north then you reach CA-91, for which one of the eastbound control cities is also Anaheim.
So if you follow the control cities you will do almost a full u-turn away from Anaheim.
Quote from: BigMattFromTexas on July 09, 2012, 09:00:11 PM
Not so much odd, but it's funny how El Paso is the control city in southern Tuscon. Even though it's a whole state and a half away.
BigMatt
Definitely up there with I-80 in Youngstown, Ohio having New York City as a control city, two states away.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2012, 06:42:47 PM
NJ often uses just "Phila" for Philadelphia.
In Houston, many of the freeways list "Downtown" as their control city within the city limits.
US 101, I-5, CA 170, and both I-110 and CA 110 all have "Los Angeles" as their control cities within the L.A. city limits.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:32:54 AM
Quote from: flowmotion on July 09, 2012, 02:12:26 PM
<<Insert routine complaint about I-580 Stockton>>
Doesn't I-580 also list Fresno at some point? That is even worse.
Fresno is mentioned at Vasco Road west of the Altamont Pass, and again at the 205 split.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 10, 2012, 02:51:34 AM
Quote from: BigMattFromTexas on July 09, 2012, 09:00:11 PM
Not so much odd, but it's funny how El Paso is the control city in southern Tuscon. Even though it's a whole state and a half away.
BigMatt
Definitely up there with I-80 in Youngstown, Ohio having New York City as a control city, two states away.
Memphis is the control city for I-57 from Chicago, though you have to cross through two states in between and I-57 stops about two hours north of Memphis.
Isn't Atlanta a control city on I-85 in Virginia, despite having going through Raleigh-Durham and Charlotte along the way?
Quote from: golden eagle on July 10, 2012, 11:16:00 AM
Isn't Atlanta a control city on I-85 in Virginia, despite having going through Raleigh-Durham and Charlotte along the way?
At its beginning from I-95, yes.
Quote from: flowmotion on July 09, 2012, 02:12:26 PM
<<Insert routine complaint about I-580 Stockton>>
I'm not sure what the problem is with Stockton being a control city for I-580. Back in the day, US 50 used to extend west of Sacramento roughly along present-day CA-99, CA-120, I-205 and I-580. This routing took it through Stockton which is why older signs along I-580 in and around Oakland have Stockton listed as a control city. Newer signs that show Stockton are most likely carbon copies of the sign they replaced. Fresno is more of a stretch.
Quote from: Takumi on July 10, 2012, 11:25:29 AM
At its beginning from I-95, yes.
I believe, somewhere around there, there is a sign on I-95 southbound with a Miami control city.
Quote from: myosh_tino on July 10, 2012, 11:45:35 AM
Quote from: flowmotion on July 09, 2012, 02:12:26 PM
<<Insert routine complaint about I-580 Stockton>>
I'm not sure what the problem is with Stockton being a control city for I-580. Back in the day, US 50 used to extend west of Sacramento roughly along present-day CA-99, CA-120, I-205 and I-580. This routing took it through Stockton which is why older signs along I-580 in and around Oakland have Stockton listed as a control city. Newer signs that show Stockton are most likely carbon copies of the sign they replaced. Fresno is more of a stretch.
Isn't 580-205-5-120-99 the best all-freeway route to Fresno from Altamont? Thus, signing 580 east from there for Fresno is interesting as it forces a driver to take an uncontrolled-access route at some point (132 to 99, or 5 to 152 to 99).
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 10, 2012, 11:48:47 AM
Quote from: Takumi on July 10, 2012, 11:25:29 AM
At its beginning from I-95, yes.
I believe, somewhere around there, there is a sign on I-95 southbound with a Miami control city.
Same interchange. I-95's advance signs for the I-85 exit alternate between signs with the local towns of Blackstone and South Hill–peculiarly listed with South Hill first even though it's further away–and signs with the longer-distance destinations of Durham and Atlanta (as others have suggested, the omission of Charlotte is a bit peculiar). In the same area, the pull-through signs for I-95 traffic list Rocky Mount, NC, and Miami. If memory serves, and if nothing has changed since my last trip through there, there are two such pull-through signs. Nowadays I usually use I-295 instead of passing through that area.
^ Yes, there are two Miami signs. One is right at the split, and the other is just past it at exit 50. I-295 also used to be signed for Miami, but it was greened out and eventually replaced with Richmond Airport.
Quote from: JustDrive on July 10, 2012, 09:20:50 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:32:54 AM
Quote from: flowmotion on July 09, 2012, 02:12:26 PM
<<Insert routine complaint about I-580 Stockton>>
Doesn't I-580 also list Fresno at some point? That is even worse.
Fresno is mentioned at Vasco Road west of the Altamont Pass, and again at the 205 split.
Fresno is also mentioned on I-880 as a control city for I-238 east.
Quote from: JustDrive on July 10, 2012, 09:15:53 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 09, 2012, 06:42:47 PM
NJ often uses just "Phila" for Philadelphia.
In Houston, many of the freeways list "Downtown" as their control city within the city limits.
US 101, I-5, CA 170, and both I-110 and CA 110 all have "Los Angeles" as their control cities within the L.A. city limits.
I think that's mainly because when overhead signs say Los Angeles, they are reffering to Downtown Los Angeles. It would be confusing if at the 101 405 jct 101 was signed for Santa Ana or San Bernardino.
Same with I-5 or 170 before reaching Downtown.
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
Indio is a control city for CA-79 south on signs on I-15 north approaching Temecula. Indio is northeast of Temecula.
it is the logical way to go: 79 south (which heads geographically east) to 371 to 74. it's the route numbers that are a bit wonky.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
Similarly, once I-5 enters the Sacramento city limits, "Los Angeles" becomes the southbound control city - over 7 or 8 miles north of downtown.
Quote from: TheStranger on July 10, 2012, 12:11:30 PMIsn't 580-205-5-120-99 the best all-freeway route to Fresno from Altamont? Thus, signing 580 east from there for Fresno is interesting as it forces a driver to take an uncontrolled-access route at some point (132 to 99, or 5 to 152 to 99).
That's probably why Bakersfield got erased from mileage signs on I-5 south of 152. The secondary control cities are "Jct 46" or "Jct 58".
How about Trenton on US 1 North for the I-95 Northbound ramp in Oxford Valley, PA? The Capital of New Jersey lies just a few miles north on US 1, that is full freeway, compared to heading north on I-95, then heading south on NJ 29 which is longer and out of the way.
How about Apopka being used for the TOLL FL 414 WEST ramp near Apopka, FL from US 441. What is interesting is Downtown Apopka and the city proper are just a couple of miles north on US 441 from this interchange. US 441 is the main street of this community, so why does FL 414 that does not go there have it as control city? True at Keene Road and FL 429 both exits are signed "Apopka NEXT 2 EXITS" upon reaching these two roads. Then if you use FL 429 into Apopka you will find that its only exit for that is US 441. Sound familiar? Basically if you follow the FL 414 signs for Apopka and use the FL 429 exit, you will make a circle around and back and end up coming into Apopka from the other side of town on the same road you are currently on.
Why is also Lakeland used as control city for FL 570 at both terminuses on I-4 when FL 570 is the beltway of Lakeland and like I-355 should have radial control points from adjacent highway places like Mulberry (FL 37) or Bartow (US 98)? Okay, well Exit 27 (FL 570 West terminus) uses Bartow and Winter Haven, but still to Lakeland you have four other direct routes into this city between the two interchanges.
Orlando was once used on FL 112 Eastbound at I-95 Northbound near Miami in conjunction with airport signage leaving Miami Airport that did mention Orlando for a destination. I never understood that one, as I do not think many travelers will fly into Miami to go to Orlando. This of course is unsual and maybe the signs were removed since ther. Even in Orlando leaving MCO you do not have Miami signage for rental car users. The closest thing to it is the FL Turnpike that does have shields leaving both North and South exits but no Miami.
Quote from: TheStranger on July 10, 2012, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
Similarly, once I-5 enters the Sacramento city limits, "Los Angeles" becomes the southbound control city - over 7 or 8 miles north of downtown.
I would think they would want to sign Downtown Sacramento and add Los Angeles. Sacramento seems to sign control cities like Arizona and Nevada do. Where as Los Angeles and San Francisco sign much closer points.
Quote from: myosh_tino on July 10, 2012, 11:45:35 AM
Quote from: flowmotion on July 09, 2012, 02:12:26 PM
<<Insert routine complaint about I-580 Stockton>>
I'm not sure what the problem is with Stockton being a control city for I-580. Back in the day, US 50 used to extend west of Sacramento roughly along present-day CA-99, CA-120, I-205 and I-580. This routing took it through Stockton which is why older signs along I-580 in and around Oakland have Stockton listed as a control city. Newer signs that show Stockton are most likely carbon copies of the sign they replaced. Fresno is more of a stretch.
Yep, I'm fully aware of the roadgeek trivia*, and Stockton still not a sensible control city. I would prefer Los Angeles, with Tracy as a secondary control.
*Why did US 50 detour south through Stockton and Tracy in the first place? This hasn't been the primary route to Sacramento since the Carquinez Bridge was built in 1927.
Quote from: flowmotion on July 10, 2012, 08:41:23 PM
*Why did US 50 detour south through Stockton and Tracy in the first place? This hasn't been the primary route to Sacramento since the Carquinez Bridge was built in 1927.
it was the southern branch of the Lincoln Highway. the routes which became US-40 and US-50 offered two alternatives. one was longer and the other had a ferry.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 10, 2012, 01:38:45 PM
Indio is a control city for CA-79 south on signs on I-15 north approaching Temecula. Indio is northeast of Temecula.
it is the logical way to go: 79 south (which heads geographically east) to 371 to 74. it's the route numbers that are a bit wonky.
The one problem is that Hwyy 74 near Palm Desert is a windy canyon. If your towing a trailer your better off, taking 79 North to I-10 East.
I like that Artesia is a control city on the 91 west. More f*ckery from District 12. Like when they renamed the Newport Freeway.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
This thought doesn't account for the fact that there is a lot more that is considered "Las Vegas" beyond the city limits of the City of Las Vegas. All unincorporated areas of the urban Las Vegas Valley are considered to be part of "Las Vegas" and have "Las Vegas" as a mailing address--the Strip, McCarran Airport, and the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) are all located outside Las Vegas city limits. The Blue Diamond/I-15 interchange lies within unincorporated Las Vegas, so it is logical to use the next control point.
Also, if you're talking about the original interchange, that was built at a time when urban Las Vegas did not extend to the interchange, so it was more appropriate to use Las Vegas on signs.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 08:40:23 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on July 10, 2012, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
Similarly, once I-5 enters the Sacramento city limits, "Los Angeles" becomes the southbound control city - over 7 or 8 miles north of downtown.
I would think they would want to sign Downtown Sacramento and add Los Angeles. Sacramento seems to sign control cities like Arizona and Nevada do. Where as Los Angeles and San Francisco sign much closer points.
I feel sometimes Sacramento-area control cities are too biased in favor of longer-distance destinations - Roseville for instance is only used as a control city on Route 160 north, and downtown Sacramento only for 160 south (and former 275 east). Wouldn't Roseville, Elk Grove, and Folsom all be worth mentioning? Or Stockton, for that matter.
50 east has very few signs for Placerville in the area now - most of the ones in use today have South Lake Tahoe as the control.
In SF, at least "downtown San Francisco" gets used (280 north), though it is fascinating that at the 280/1 split on the Daly City/San Francisco border, 280 north is signed for "San Francisco" even though both roads immediately enter the SF city limits.
Wasn't there a sign for Stockton on former 160 in Sacramento near the W-X portion of Business 80?
Also, L.A. should use "Downtown" more often as a "control city." The only place where I've seen it used is on the 110 South at the Four Level and on 10 West to 110 North.
Quote from: JustDrive on July 11, 2012, 12:01:52 PM
Wasn't there a sign for Stockton on former 160 in Sacramento near the W-X portion of Business 80?
Yes. It's in place because that segment of 160 runs along former US 99W/US 50 (which, of course, did go to Stockton). I think the current sign there though is city-installed.
Quote from: JustDrive on July 11, 2012, 12:01:52 PM
Also, L.A. should use "Downtown" more often as a "control city." The only place where I've seen it used is on the 110 South at the Four Level and on 10 West to 110 North.
I think the usage should be similar to that of "downtown" vs. "San Francisco" in SF - SF until the city limits, then "downtown" from then on.
101 is signed for "Los Angeles/Civic Center" in East Los Angeles when it continues on the northern part of the Santa Ana Freeway (while 5 splits to the east for the Golden State Freeway to Burbank). Not sure if that's in LA city limits, though it is so close to downtown (and 5 continues into the city limits as well) that "Civic Center/Downtown LA" would make way more sense, IMO.
Routes where "downtown LA" could be logical as a control:
- I-10 west from about I-710 to I-110
- I-10 east from I-405 to I-110
- Route 60 west from I-710 to I-10
- US 101 north (Santa Ana Freeway) from I-5 to the Four-Level
- US 101 south from the Hollywood Split (170/134) to the Four-Level
- Route 170 south in its entirety
- Route 110/I-110 south from I-5 to I-10
- I-110 north from I-105 to I-10
- I-5 north from I-710 to US 101
Likewise, in Sacramento, "downtown" could work as a control city for...
- I-5 north from Florin Road to US 50
- I-5 south from I-80 to about J Street
- US 50 west from Watt Avenue to 15th Street
- Route 99 north from 47th Avenue to US 50
Quote from: BigMattFromTexas on July 09, 2012, 09:00:11 PM
Not so much odd, but it's funny how El Paso is the control city in southern Tuscon. Even though it's a whole state and a half away.
BigMatt
El Paso makes sense since it is the next city on I-10... Maybe Las Cruces since that is where I-25 intersects.
Quote from: roadfro on July 11, 2012, 03:30:25 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
This thought doesn't account for the fact that there is a lot more that is considered "Las Vegas" beyond the city limits of the City of Las Vegas. All unincorporated areas of the urban Las Vegas Valley are considered to be part of "Las Vegas" and have "Las Vegas" as a mailing address--the Strip, McCarran Airport, and the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) are all located outside Las Vegas city limits. The Blue Diamond/I-15 interchange lies within unincorporated Las Vegas, so it is logical to use the next control point.
Also, if you're talking about the original interchange, that was built at a time when urban Las Vegas did not extend to the interchange, so it was more appropriate to use Las Vegas on signs.
I understand that, but when you still have some miles to go before reaching Downtown I think it can be confusing to suddenly list the next Major Control City, expecially one that is over 400 miles away.
Whether or not Blue Diamond Road is considered Las Vegas, until you reach Downtown I strongly think Las Vegas should at least be a destination city. I just think it's almost jumping the gun to change to Salt Lakce City before reaching the Strip or downtown.
Notice how on I-215 West I-15 North is signed for Las Vegas/ The Strip. That's how it should be signed, instead of Just Salt Lake City.
Also I notice that I-515 is signed for Las Vegas while being in the Las Vegas valley.
Quote from: TheStranger on July 11, 2012, 11:29:41 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 08:40:23 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on July 10, 2012, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
Similarly, once I-5 enters the Sacramento city limits, "Los Angeles" becomes the southbound control city - over 7 or 8 miles north of downtown.
I would think they would want to sign Downtown Sacramento and add Los Angeles. Sacramento seems to sign control cities like Arizona and Nevada do. Where as Los Angeles and San Francisco sign much closer points.
I feel sometimes Sacramento-area control cities are too biased in favor of longer-distance destinations - Roseville for instance is only used as a control city on Route 160 north, and downtown Sacramento only for 160 south (and former 275 east). Wouldn't Roseville, Elk Grove, and Folsom all be worth mentioning? Or Stockton, for that matter.
50 east has very few signs for Placerville in the area now - most of the ones in use today have South Lake Tahoe as the control.
In SF, at least "downtown San Francisco" gets used (280 north), though it is fascinating that at the 280/1 split on the Daly City/San Francisco border, 280 north is signed for "San Francisco" even though both roads immediately enter the SF city limits.
I would have to agree, some cities seem to use further away control cities. Sometimes they miss important points along the route in favor of a city that is a long ways away.
Quote from: jwolfer on July 11, 2012, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: BigMattFromTexas on July 09, 2012, 09:00:11 PM
Not so much odd, but it's funny how El Paso is the control city in southern Tuscon. Even though it's a whole state and a half away.
BigMatt
El Paso makes sense since it is the next city on I-10... Maybe Las Cruces since that is where I-25 intersects.
Arizona always signs the next Major City, I think Las Cruces deserves some mention.
I-40 uses LA because of US 66 in Arizona. In Nevada, Los Angeles is used on I-15 south of Vegas because of US 91.
Nonetheless both routes require a change in routes and the former needs two other interstates to complete the trip to the City of Angels.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on July 09, 2012, 01:11:22 PM
I-275 northbound has Flint as a control city, even though from the northern terminus of I-275, traffic would have to take I-96 west to US 23 north or I-696 east to I-75 north. Of course, if the freeway was completed as originally planned, it would connect to I-75 directly.
Lansing, Novi, or even Brighton would make more sense than Flint along I-275 north.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 11, 2012, 04:25:37 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 11, 2012, 03:30:25 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
This thought doesn't account for the fact that there is a lot more that is considered "Las Vegas" beyond the city limits of the City of Las Vegas. All unincorporated areas of the urban Las Vegas Valley are considered to be part of "Las Vegas" and have "Las Vegas" as a mailing address--the Strip, McCarran Airport, and the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) are all located outside Las Vegas city limits. The Blue Diamond/I-15 interchange lies within unincorporated Las Vegas, so it is logical to use the next control point.
Also, if you're talking about the original interchange, that was built at a time when urban Las Vegas did not extend to the interchange, so it was more appropriate to use Las Vegas on signs.
I understand that, but when you still have some miles to go before reaching Downtown I think it can be confusing to suddenly list the next Major Control City, expecially one that is over 400 miles away.
Whether or not Blue Diamond Road is considered Las Vegas, until you reach Downtown I strongly think Las Vegas should at least be a destination city. I just think it's almost jumping the gun to change to Salt Lakce City before reaching the Strip or downtown.
Notice how on I-215 West I-15 North is signed for Las Vegas/ The Strip. That's how it should be signed, instead of Just Salt Lake City.
Also I notice that I-515 is signed for Las Vegas while being in the Las Vegas valley.
Also note that on I-215/CC 215 east at that same junction, I-15 North is only signed for Salt Lake City. As it is at practically every cross street within Las Vegas area.
I-515 north has no pull through signs at all. At the 215/564 interchange in Henderson, I-515 north is signed for Las Vegas...which does make sense. There may be one other side street that says "Las Vegas", but this would be dubious as it would actually be within the unincorporated Las Vegas area and not necessary.
The control city is meant to be a guide for long distance travelers to give some indication of where the route goes, or where you can get while following the route. Using a point just a few miles away when you're already in that city's major metro area isn't conducive, and I would argue that that is more confusing.
Another one I thought of: In western Iowa, all exits that lead to westbound I-680, including eastbound I-80 NE of Council Bluffs, include "North Omaha" as a control city. Of course, North Omaha is not an actual city, just a part of Omaha. You could just as logically put "West Omaha" there, or if you want a real city, Lincoln, especially as 680 exits from SB I-29.
Another noninterstate oddity in Omaha is the fact Millard is listed as the control city for NE 50 north of I-80 and eastbound US 275/NE 92 even though Millard was taken over in 1971.
Quote from: TheStranger on July 11, 2012, 01:25:07 PMYes. It's in place because that segment of 160 runs along former US 99W/US 50 (which, of course, did go to Stockton). I think the current sign there though is city-installed.
From what I recall, it was NB on (former) 160 and it was pointing east on Broadway to take you to Stockton, even though Stockton is south of Sacramento. And EB on Broadway, there are no signs that tell you that SB 99 takes you there. A rather oddly-designated control city.
Quote from: JustDrive on July 12, 2012, 09:10:33 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on July 11, 2012, 01:25:07 PMYes. It's in place because that segment of 160 runs along former US 99W/US 50 (which, of course, did go to Stockton). I think the current sign there though is city-installed.
From what I recall, it was NB on (former) 160 and it was pointing east on Broadway to take you to Stockton, even though Stockton is south of Sacramento. And EB on Broadway, there are no signs that tell you that SB 99 takes you there. A rather oddly-designated control city.
Yeah, that sign seems to have been supplanted-in-place with no thought to current traffic patterns or routings.
In any case, from 21st/Broadway, right on Broadway isn't even the fastest way to there: simply continuing on former 160 to the WX Freeway would give you two options at 15th/16th Street, either westbound 50 (northbound 99) to 5 south, or 99 south.
Quote from: roadfro on July 12, 2012, 02:42:58 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 11, 2012, 04:25:37 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 11, 2012, 03:30:25 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 10, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
Another thing i find interesting is that in Las Vegas at the old Blue Diamond Road interchange I-15 North was signed Las Vegas, now it has a big overhead Sign for Salt Lake City. Even though your 7 miles from the Las Vegas City limits and almost 10 miles from Downtown.
I always thought that Las Vegas should be the control point for I-15 north until about the I-215 jct then if they want to add Salt Lakc eCity, fine, but also include Downtown Las Vegas.
This thought doesn't account for the fact that there is a lot more that is considered "Las Vegas" beyond the city limits of the City of Las Vegas. All unincorporated areas of the urban Las Vegas Valley are considered to be part of "Las Vegas" and have "Las Vegas" as a mailing address--the Strip, McCarran Airport, and the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) are all located outside Las Vegas city limits. The Blue Diamond/I-15 interchange lies within unincorporated Las Vegas, so it is logical to use the next control point.
Also, if you're talking about the original interchange, that was built at a time when urban Las Vegas did not extend to the interchange, so it was more appropriate to use Las Vegas on signs.
I understand that, but when you still have some miles to go before reaching Downtown I think it can be confusing to suddenly list the next Major Control City, expecially one that is over 400 miles away.
Whether or not Blue Diamond Road is considered Las Vegas, until you reach Downtown I strongly think Las Vegas should at least be a destination city. I just think it's almost jumping the gun to change to Salt Lakce City before reaching the Strip or downtown.
Notice how on I-215 West I-15 North is signed for Las Vegas/ The Strip. That's how it should be signed, instead of Just Salt Lake City.
Also I notice that I-515 is signed for Las Vegas while being in the Las Vegas valley.
Also note that on I-215/CC 215 east at that same junction, I-15 North is only signed for Salt Lake City. As it is at practically every cross street within Las Vegas area.
I-515 north has no pull through signs at all. At the 215/564 interchange in Henderson, I-515 north is signed for Las Vegas...which does make sense. There may be one other side street that says "Las Vegas", but this would be dubious as it would actually be within the unincorporated Las Vegas area and not necessary.
The control city is meant to be a guide for long distance travelers to give some indication of where the route goes, or where you can get while following the route. Using a point just a few miles away when you're already in that city's major metro area isn't conducive, and I would argue that that is more confusing.
I know do actually know that about CC 215 west of I-15. But for example when CC 215 ends at I-15 North of Downtown, I-15 South is signed Las Vegas, Los Angeles. That is still within the Las Vegas Valley.
I understand about long distance travelers, and guiding them, but when your not into the major Downtown area it could also be confusing to someone from out of the area. If your within the city area and the City is listed on an On Ramp, to me it would say this route goes further into this city.
Los Angeles does it, San Francisco does it, it makes sense to sign downtown, along with the next city.
I said before I have no problem with Salt Lakc City being signed, but Las Vegas, or Downtown Las Vegas should be listed.
Isn't Las Vegas listed at St Rose Parkway? I knw technically the Las Vegas Metro area starts around Sloan.
Out of curiosity then by your standards I-515 should be signed for something else when in the Las Vegas Valley, should it be Reno?
How is Las Vegas the right choice at the I-215, I-515 jct, your technically in the Las Vegas area, and you just told me how it is dubiuos to sign Las Vegas
I for the record don't mean that I think all the onramps North of I-215 should be resigned, I would say add Downtown Las Vegas to them. I mean South of I-215 it should still be Las Vegas or Las Vegas listed with Salt Lake City.
Please explain to me how listing both would be confusing.
Quote from: TheStranger on July 11, 2012, 01:25:07 PM
I think the usage should be similar to that of "downtown" vs. "San Francisco" in SF - SF until the city limits, then "downtown" from then on.
101 is signed for "Los Angeles/Civic Center" in East Los Angeles when it continues on the northern part of the Santa Ana Freeway (while 5 splits to the east for the Golden State Freeway to Burbank). Not sure if that's in LA city limits, though it is so close to downtown (and 5 continues into the city limits as well) that "Civic Center/Downtown LA" would make way more sense, IMO.
Routes where "downtown LA" could be logical as a control:
- I-10 west from about I-710 to I-110
- I-10 east from I-405 to I-110
- Route 60 west from I-710 to I-10
- US 101 north (Santa Ana Freeway) from I-5 to the Four-Level
- US 101 south from the Hollywood Split (170/134) to the Four-Level
- Route 170 south in its entirety
- Route 110/I-110 south from I-5 to I-10
- I-110 north from I-105 to I-10
- I-5 north from I-710 to US 101
Likewise, in Sacramento, "downtown" could work as a control city for...
- I-5 north from Florin Road to US 50
- I-5 south from I-80 to about J Street
- US 50 west from Watt Avenue to 15th Street
- Route 99 north from 47th Avenue to US 50
I agree for the most part. My only issues are with the 5, 10 and 60 at the East LA Interchange and the 5 south at the 170.
Going north on the 5, or west on the 10 and 60 at the East LA Interchange, it's just as easy to get Downtown using the 10 as it is to use the 101. Of course, part of it depends on what you define as Downtown. If you define Downtown as the Civic Center, courts, Olvera Street, Union Station, or Bunker Hill, then the 101 is the closer route. If you define it as the Financial District, Staples Center, Convention Center, or Garment District, then the 10 is the closer route. If it's old downtown -- the old Broadway theater and shopping corridor -- then it's a coin flip. If Downtown is some or all of these things, then it's also a coin flip.
Perhaps the answer is to have "Downtown North/Civic Center" for the 101 and "Downtown South/Convention Center<CR>Santa Monica" for the 10. Or a shorter "Downtown<CR>Civic Center" for the 101 and "Downtown<CR>Convention Center<CR>Santa Monica" for the 10.
I've always thought that approaching the East LA and Golden State/San Bernardino Fwy interchanges, there should be lots of advance signs identifying various secondary destinations, e.g., some of the following: For the 5: Burbank (Airport), Glendale, San Fernando; for the 10: Convention Center, Staples Center, Coliseum, Galen Center, Mid-City, LA Int'l Airport, West LA; and for the 101: Civic Center, State & Federal Courts, Union Station, Dodger Stadium, Hollywood, San Fernando Valley.
A similar issue with the 5/170 split. Currently the 5 gets a control city of Los Angeles and the 170 gets a control city of Hollywood. Both routes take you into Downtown. Not counting traffic at a particular time of day, the 170 is actually the shorter route to Downtown from that point. 15 years ago, the 5 would have been the faster route due to the volume of traffic on the 170/101, but not anymore. Plus, the 5 doesn't take trucks Downtown because of the truck restriction on the 110, so trucks have to go all the way to the East LA interchange or take surface streets in Boyle Heights to get Downtown.
So there seems to be two potential options with the 5/170 to address this. First option: Label the 5 as "Downtown LA via Burbank" and the 170 as "Downtown LA via Hollywood". Maybe stick the little airport icon next to "Burbank".
Second option: Label the 5 as "Downtown LA - Auto Route" and label the 170 as "Downtown LA - Truck Route".
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 12, 2012, 12:20:07 PM
I know do actually know that about CC 215 west of I-15. But for example when CC 215 ends at I-15 North of Downtown, I-15 South is signed Las Vegas, Los Angeles. That is still within the Las Vegas Valley.
I understand about long distance travelers, and guiding them, but when your not into the major Downtown area it could also be confusing to someone from out of the area. If your within the city area and the City is listed on an On Ramp, to me it would say this route goes further into this city.
Los Angeles does it, San Francisco does it, it makes sense to sign downtown, along with the next city.
I said before I have no problem with Salt Lakc City being signed, but Las Vegas, or Downtown Las Vegas should be listed.
Isn't Las Vegas listed at St Rose Parkway? I knw technically the Las Vegas Metro area starts around Sloan.
Out of curiosity then by your standards I-515 should be signed for something else when in the Las Vegas Valley, should it be Reno?
How is Las Vegas the right choice at the I-215, I-515 jct, your technically in the Las Vegas area, and you just told me how it is dubiuos to sign Las Vegas
I for the record don't mean that I think all the onramps North of I-215 should be resigned, I would say add Downtown Las Vegas to them. I mean South of I-215 it should still be Las Vegas or Las Vegas listed with Salt Lake City.
Please explain to me how listing both would be confusing.
I am failing to understand how a driver in the Las Vegas area but south of the actual downtown core would be confused by seeing "Salt Lake City" as a control city for I-15 North, as compared to "Las Vegas" or "Downtown Las Vegas". I am just not sold on the fact that "Downtown" is a necessary 'control city' for a major interstate highway. Don't get me wrong, I understand the merits of keeping Las Vegas on the signs for a bit, but it's not needed all the way into the urban core.
The comparison with I-15 versus I-515 is not quite the same. You're comparing city signing between a national interstate and a metro area spur...different criteria to factor in. (It's also worth noting that the I-215/I-515 interchange is actually in the city of Henderson, not the Las Vegas unincorporated area.)
I know is that NDOT has been gradually removing second city references from signs for quite some time, preferring to stick more with a single destination for any pull-through or guidance signage--which is consistent with MUTCD recommendations. They have removed most references to "Downtown LV" that used to exist along US 95. They also have removed all the old dual references to North Las Vegas and Salt Lake City that used to be on I-15 north signs, as well as dual references to Phoenix and Needles for I-515/US 93/US 95 south (favoring Phoenix only).
Quote from: roadfro on July 14, 2012, 05:00:19 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 12, 2012, 12:20:07 PM
I know do actually know that about CC 215 west of I-15. But for example when CC 215 ends at I-15 North of Downtown, I-15 South is signed Las Vegas, Los Angeles. That is still within the Las Vegas Valley.
I understand about long distance travelers, and guiding them, but when your not into the major Downtown area it could also be confusing to someone from out of the area. If your within the city area and the City is listed on an On Ramp, to me it would say this route goes further into this city.
Los Angeles does it, San Francisco does it, it makes sense to sign downtown, along with the next city.
I said before I have no problem with Salt Lakc City being signed, but Las Vegas, or Downtown Las Vegas should be listed.
Isn't Las Vegas listed at St Rose Parkway? I knw technically the Las Vegas Metro area starts around Sloan.
Out of curiosity then by your standards I-515 should be signed for something else when in the Las Vegas Valley, should it be Reno?
How is Las Vegas the right choice at the I-215, I-515 jct, your technically in the Las Vegas area, and you just told me how it is dubiuos to sign Las Vegas
I for the record don't mean that I think all the onramps North of I-215 should be resigned, I would say add Downtown Las Vegas to them. I mean South of I-215 it should still be Las Vegas or Las Vegas listed with Salt Lake City.
Please explain to me how listing both would be confusing.
I am failing to understand how a driver in the Las Vegas area but south of the actual downtown core would be confused by seeing "Salt Lake City" as a control city for I-15 North, as compared to "Las Vegas" or "Downtown Las Vegas". I am just not sold on the fact that "Downtown" is a necessary 'control city' for a major interstate highway. Don't get me wrong, I understand the merits of keeping Las Vegas on the signs for a bit, but it's not needed all the way into the urban core.
The comparison with I-15 versus I-515 is not quite the same. You're comparing city signing between a national interstate and a metro area spur...different criteria to factor in. (It's also worth noting that the I-215/I-515 interchange is actually in the city of Henderson, not the Las Vegas unincorporated area.)
I know is that NDOT has been gradually removing second city references from signs for quite some time, preferring to stick more with a single destination for any pull-through or guidance signage--which is consistent with MUTCD recommendations. They have removed most references to "Downtown LV" that used to exist along US 95. They also have removed all the old dual references to North Las Vegas and Salt Lake City that used to be on I-15 north signs, as well as dual references to Phoenix and Needles for I-515/US 93/US 95 south (favoring Phoenix only).
Considering how much traffic in Las Vegas is tourist traffic and how many California license plates are onI-15 South of Downtown, what I mean is that when your driving into Las Vegas, and all of a sudden Salt Lakce City takes over before reaching downtown, or in this case the Las Vegas strip it can be confusing.
I'm talking about being south of the Strip and Downtown, before you even reach exits for the Strip. South of I-215.
Like I said north of I-215 I can understand signing Salt Lake City, although I also said Downtown Las Vegas could be referenced as well.
But south of I-215 when your not even to the Las Vegas strip yet, having Salt Lakce City be signed at onramps is confusing. For an out of town driver I mean, because if your not from that area and you don't already know that I-15 keeps going into downtown then the change in Control Points can confuse most tourists. I'm guessing that's why there are no overhead guide signs on I-15 until downtown, especially at the I-215 jct, except the ont that used to say Las Vegas Strip next 4 exits.
I can't see the argument that south of I-215 Salt Lakce City needs to be signed on onramps, Las Vegas should be listed as the primary until I-215, since the toruist part of Las Vegas isn't even until then, not to mention the City limits. Putting up Salt Lake City feels like jumping the gun, at onramps.
I understand what your saying about I-515 but US 95 is a major north, south highway, and in the future there is talk of changing it to I-11. Then would you think Las Vegas shouldn't be signed?
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 13, 2012, 05:33:25 PM
So there seems to be two potential options with the 5/170 to address this. First option: Label the 5 as "Downtown LA via Burbank" and the 170 as "Downtown LA via Hollywood". Maybe stick the little airport icon next to "Burbank".
Second option: Label the 5 as "Downtown LA - Auto Route" and label the 170 as "Downtown LA - Truck Route".
I REALLY like this (it reminds me of signage in southeast France for Paris via various routes). Another example where this could be useful?
At the 805/5 split in Sorrento Valley, both routes can take you to downtown San Diego - 805 to 163 is actually shorter and avoids the Sea World and Lindbergh Field traffic! So I've thought of say, an arrangement like this:
5 SOUTH
Airport/Sea World
Downtown
805 SOUTH
Chula Vista
Downtown Via Route 163
Likewise, for 5/170, while 170 could be easily signed for downtown as is, the route isn't all that long so signing it as "170 to 101" could work too to make it clear 101 is the continuing route to Hollywood & downtown LA.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 14, 2012, 11:14:43 AM
Considering how much traffic in Las Vegas is tourist traffic and how many California license plates are onI-15 South of Downtown, what I mean is that when your driving into Las Vegas, and all of a sudden Salt Lakce City takes over before reaching downtown, or in this case the Las Vegas strip it can be confusing.
I'm talking about being south of the Strip and Downtown, before you even reach exits for the Strip. South of I-215.
Like I said north of I-215 I can understand signing Salt Lake City, although I also said Downtown Las Vegas could be referenced as well.
But south of I-215 when your not even to the Las Vegas strip yet, having Salt Lakce City be signed at onramps is confusing. For an out of town driver I mean, because if your not from that area and you don't already know that I-15 keeps going into downtown then the change in Control Points can confuse most tourists. I'm guessing that's why there are no overhead guide signs on I-15 until downtown, especially at the I-215 jct, except the ont that used to say Las Vegas Strip next 4 exits.
I can't see the argument that south of I-215 Salt Lakce City needs to be signed on onramps, Las Vegas should be listed as the primary until I-215, since the toruist part of Las Vegas isn't even until then, not to mention the City limits. Putting up Salt Lake City feels like jumping the gun, at onramps.
I understand what your saying about I-515 but US 95 is a major north, south highway, and in the future there is talk of changing it to I-11. Then would you think Las Vegas shouldn't be signed?
Again, I am not understanding the confusion you seem to think exists. But I think we shall have to agree to disagree on this topic...I don't want this particular conversation to derail the thread.
Why complain about Salt Lake being used before Downtown Vegas is reached. Kansas uses Kansas City from Wichita northward along I-35 until it reaches the suburbs of KC then it becomes Des Moines. For example in Olathe, KS which is just as you enter the Metro Kansas City area on I-35, you still have several miles to go to Downtown Kansas City and Des Moines is already the control city for NB I-35.
Top it off, the Northbound Control City for the southern junction of I-435 (that is a beltway bypass of Kansas City) for I-35 is Des Moines and St. Louis is used for I-70 Eastbound west of KC near the Kansas Motor Speedway spite you have to go through yet Kansas City to get there.
In Missouri, though, on I-435 you have Kansas City used for both I-35 and I-70 heading into Downtown of Kansas City and the I-435 Beltway has control cities used for the next perpindicular interstates heading away from KC. For example, near Independence, the control cities on I-435 from I-70 are Wichita (inner) and Des Moines (outer).
This in Vegas is nothing new.
^^Having a major city disappear 15 miles before you reach it, to be replaced by one 200 miles farther, is ridiculous. (If someone from out of town is actually trying to find his way from Olathe into Kansas City by following the signs to "Kansas City" instead of the route numbers, he's s.o.l.) But so many things in American control-city practices (including the term "control city") are ridiculous that I tend to avoid these discussions.
Quote from: roadfro on July 15, 2012, 05:54:59 AM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 14, 2012, 11:14:43 AM
Considering how much traffic in Las Vegas is tourist traffic and how many California license plates are onI-15 South of Downtown, what I mean is that when your driving into Las Vegas, and all of a sudden Salt Lakce City takes over before reaching downtown, or in this case the Las Vegas strip it can be confusing.
I'm talking about being south of the Strip and Downtown, before you even reach exits for the Strip. South of I-215.
Like I said north of I-215 I can understand signing Salt Lake City, although I also said Downtown Las Vegas could be referenced as well.
But south of I-215 when your not even to the Las Vegas strip yet, having Salt Lakce City be signed at onramps is confusing. For an out of town driver I mean, because if your not from that area and you don't already know that I-15 keeps going into downtown then the change in Control Points can confuse most tourists. I'm guessing that's why there are no overhead guide signs on I-15 until downtown, especially at the I-215 jct, except the ont that used to say Las Vegas Strip next 4 exits.
I can't see the argument that south of I-215 Salt Lakce City needs to be signed on onramps, Las Vegas should be listed as the primary until I-215, since the toruist part of Las Vegas isn't even until then, not to mention the City limits. Putting up Salt Lake City feels like jumping the gun, at onramps.
I understand what your saying about I-515 but US 95 is a major north, south highway, and in the future there is talk of changing it to I-11. Then would you think Las Vegas shouldn't be signed?
Again, I am not understanding the confusion you seem to think exists. But I think we shall have to agree to disagree on this topic...I don't want this particular conversation to derail the thread.
I agree to disagree as well.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 15, 2012, 09:58:40 AM
Why complain about Salt Lake being used before Downtown Vegas is reached. Kansas uses Kansas City from Wichita northward along I-35 until it reaches the suburbs of KC then it becomes Des Moines. For example in Olathe, KS which is just as you enter the Metro Kansas City area on I-35, you still have several miles to go to Downtown Kansas City and Des Moines is already the control city for NB I-35.
Top it off, the Northbound Control City for the southern junction of I-435 (that is a beltway bypass of Kansas City) for I-35 is Des Moines and St. Louis is used for I-70 Eastbound west of KC near the Kansas Motor Speedway spite you have to go through yet Kansas City to get there.
In Missouri, though, on I-435 you have Kansas City used for both I-35 and I-70 heading into Downtown of Kansas City and the I-435 Beltway has control cities used for the next perpindicular interstates heading away from KC. For example, near Independence, the control cities on I-435 from I-70 are Wichita (inner) and Des Moines (outer).
This in Vegas is nothing new.
I'm not as much complaining, as I'm just pointing out that when your not even into Las Vegas, let alone the Strip, your just into part of the Valley, to all of a sudden have the Control Point change to the next City that is over 400 miles away, isn't good practice. I just said I think Downtown should be signed, or something related to Las Vegas until atleast reaching the tourism part of the City.
Just because your in the Metro Area doesn't mean your in the City itself yet. That's one thing nice about Southern California Control cities, they usually sign cities pretty well all the way into them before changing to the next one.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on July 15, 2012, 10:22:19 AM
^^Having a major city disappear 15 miles before you reach it, to be replaced by one 200 miles farther, is ridiculous. (If someone from out of town is actually trying to find his way from Olathe into Kansas City by following the signs to "Kansas City" instead of the route numbers, he's s.o.l.) But so many things in American control-city practices (including the term "control city") are ridiculous that I tend to avoid these discussions.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Until you reach the downtown area or atleast the city limits or are well into the city, the city should be signed before changing to the next one.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 10, 2012, 11:48:47 AM
Quote from: Takumi on July 10, 2012, 11:25:29 AM
At its beginning from I-95, yes.
I believe, somewhere around there, there is a sign on I-95 southbound with a Miami control city.
Both of those are at the the same place, at the point where I-85 South starts from I-95. I believe it has been signed that way all the way back to the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike era
Niagara instead of Niagara Falls on the Queen Elizabeth Way between Hamilton, ON and St.Catherines, ON. It might be to save on lettering almost like Salt Lake for Salt Lake City on some I-15 signage in Utah.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 15, 2012, 02:23:12 PM
Niagara instead of Niagara Falls on the Queen Elizabeth Way between Hamilton, ON and St.Catherines, ON. It might be to save on lettering almost like Salt Lake for Salt Lake City on some I-15 signage in Utah.
Since there is also a town named Niagara-on-the-Lake, maybe it's meant to refer to the area generally. The peninsula is named the Niagara Peninsula, after all, though I suppose putting "Niagara" to refer to the peninsula as a whole on signs once you're already on the peninsula would run afoul of some of the same principles cited elsewhere in this thread.
The "Niagara" and "Toronto" are functioning on the QEW more as directionals - in lieu of "North" and "South" - than as control cities. At least the ones on little panels beneath (as they do in Canada) the route markers.
What do they say once you've reached Niagara Falls? "Fort Erie"? "Buffalo"?
I think most say Fort Erie.
I have several in the southeast:
- I-24 West control city from Nashville is Clarksville. IMO, it should be St. Louis. I believe at one time it used to be.
- I-55 North out of Jackson, MS has a control city of Grenada. IMO it should be Memphis. I believe some signs have both Grenada and Memphis on them. Similarly, I-55 South from Jackson has a control city of McComb where IMO it should be New Orleans (or Hammond if you want to go with the next interstate junction).
- I-10 West from Mobile has a control city of Pascagoula. IMO it should be Biloxi or Gulfport and/or New Orleans. Similarly, I-10 East from Slidell, LA has a control city of Bay St. Louis. IMO it should be Biloxi or Gulfport and/or Mobile. I believe the current control cities in AL and LA are from when I-10 wasn't finished in MS.
- US 78/Future I-22 West has control cities of Jasper, Hamilton, Tupelo, and Memphis, depending on where you are. The signage plans for the I-65/I-22 interchange have the I-22 west control city as Memphis, but one exit down the control city if Jasper. At the US 78/AL 5 exit it is Jasper and Memphis. In Jasper the control city switches to Tupelo, then west of Jasper it switches to Hamilton. At Hamilton it switches back to Tupelo. Going eastbound there is only one control city: Birmingham. I really wished ALDOT would do a signage rehab along all of I-22 once it is finished in Alabama. I'm crossing my fingers.
- US 71/Future I-49 in Missouri southbound from I-44 in Joplin uses Fort Smith, Ark as a control city. While this is true, I would think that either Fayetteville, Bentonville, or Springdale would be used as a control city instead since it is part of a larger metro area.
- The US 67 freeway Northbound in Arkansas has St. Louis as a control city. While US 67 does eventually reach St. Louis, it isn't a freeway the entire distance. I think the goal is to make it a freeway all the way to US 60 which would connect with I-55 and I-57. When that is finished, that would make more sense.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on July 16, 2012, 12:31:37 PM
The "Niagara" and "Toronto" are functioning on the QEW more as directionals - in lieu of "North" and "South" - than as control cities. At least the ones on little panels beneath (as they do in Canada) the route markers.
What do they say once you've reached Niagara Falls? "Fort Erie"? "Buffalo"?
According to Wikipedia, it says Fort Erie up until Gilmore Road. There it changes to "Bridge to USA" in Fort Erie, but Buffalo is used on the pull through at Highway 420 in addition to Fort Erie. That may be to keep through trucks on the QEW being that they are banned from the Rainbow Bridge and to let autos know that QEW is more direct to NY's second largest city.
US-131 northbound keeps the Grand Rapids control city until the city limits between 28th St and Burton St, where it switches to Cadillac.
Quote from: Michael in Philly on July 15, 2012, 10:22:19 AM
^^Having a major city disappear 15 miles before you reach it, to be replaced by one 200 miles farther, is ridiculous. (If someone from out of town is actually trying to find his way from Olathe into Kansas City by following the signs to "Kansas City" instead of the route numbers, he's s.o.l.) But so many things in American control-city practices (including the term "control city") are ridiculous that I tend to avoid these discussions.
To think that someone trying to get from Olathe to K.C. would be confused by 'Des Moines' on a sign is ridiculous. Control cities disappear shortly before reaching town all across the nation and you don't think a thing of it. Two examples that come to mind are Dallas and Waco.
I snicker when I'm on I-264 or I-265 in Kentucky and see signs for Louisville (as in, Louisville and Lexington at I-64, Louisville and Cincinnati at I-71 or Louisville and Nashville on I-65). As far as I'm concerned, I'm already IN Louisville!
Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2012, 11:33:32 PM
I snicker when I'm on I-264 or I-265 in Kentucky and see signs for Louisville (as in, Louisville and Lexington at I-64, Louisville and Cincinnati at I-71 or Louisville and Nashville on I-65). As far as I'm concerned, I'm already IN Louisville!
Which is absolutely the case - post-2003, all of Jefferson County = Louisville!
Indianapolis is the same way, you'll see Indianapolis on signage along I-65 north up to Keystone Avenue and south to about Lafayette Road. I-70 west has the city marked until at least Shadeland Avenue and both I-69 and I-74 mentions Indy all the way to 465. All of these mentions are for areas that are outside the older boundaries of Indianapolis before it consolidated with Marion County in the 70s.
Quote from: kphoger on July 17, 2012, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on July 15, 2012, 10:22:19 AM
^^Having a major city disappear 15 miles before you reach it, to be replaced by one 200 miles farther, is ridiculous. (If someone from out of town is actually trying to find his way from Olathe into Kansas City by following the signs to "Kansas City" instead of the route numbers, he's s.o.l.) But so many things in American control-city practices (including the term "control city") are ridiculous that I tend to avoid these discussions.
To think that someone trying to get from Olathe to K.C. would be confused by 'Des Moines' on a sign is ridiculous. Control cities disappear shortly before reaching town all across the nation and you don't think a thing of it. Two examples that come to mind are Dallas and Waco.
I take exception to the "ridiculous," thank you very much.
"Control cities disappear shortly before reaching town all across the nation and you don't think a thing of it. " Your telepathy needs work as well; What I think, actually, is that the name of the city should be maintained until the city limits, then replaced by "Downtown" (or something appropriate - "Center City" in Philadelphia, "The Loop" in Chicago") until you're so close to the downtown that anyone actually heading there would be misled by that sign (because they should be getting off the freeway, or...). Then and only then should that city disappear. The very first suburb, at any rate, is not my idea of "shortly before reaching town."
In certain European countries, the actual standard is that once a place appears on directional signage, you should be able to follow that place name (at confusion points...) all the way to it. (And "to it" means "to the center of it.") Granted, this is because they don't know how to use route numbers in Europe....
Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2012, 11:33:32 PM
I snicker when I'm on I-264 or I-265 in Kentucky and see signs for Louisville (as in, Louisville and Lexington at I-64, Louisville and Cincinnati at I-71 or Louisville and Nashville on I-65). As far as I'm concerned, I'm already IN Louisville!
Would you accept a "downtown" for those who are actually heading there?
Found this picture on the Courier-Journal site today. It's from I-64 westbound at the southern end of I-71 approaching I-65 at Spaghetti Junction. You can't get more "Louisville" than this, yet have a look at the control cities for I-65.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcmsimg.courier-journal.com%2Fapps%2Fpbcsi.dll%2Fbilde%3FSite%3DB2%26amp%3BDate%3D20120718%26amp%3BCategory%3DNEWS01%26amp%3BArtNo%3D307180060%26amp%3BRef%3DAR%26amp%3BMaxW%3D640%26amp%3BBorder%3D0%26amp%3BCommuters-again-facing-traffic-congestion-heading-into-downtown&hash=15f6fbbbfd6898d3f548e3ffdf1e13b59670a282)
Quote from: Michael in Philly on July 19, 2012, 01:39:00 AM
In certain European countries, the actual standard is that once a place appears on directional signage, you should be able to follow that place name (at confusion points...) all the way to it. (And "to it" means "to the center of it.") Granted, this is because they don't know how to use route numbers in Europe....
at a particular point when one approaches the outskirts of a city, the signs start to explicitly denote the center. For example "Hannover-Zentrum" in Germany, with a corresponding symbol.
Quote from: hbelkins on July 19, 2012, 09:15:11 AM
Found this picture on the Courier-Journal site today. It's from I-64 westbound at the southern end of I-71 approaching I-65 at Spaghetti Junction. You can't get more "Louisville" than this, yet have a look at the control cities for I-65.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcmsimg.courier-journal.com%2Fapps%2Fpbcsi.dll%2Fbilde%3FSite%3DB2%26amp%3BDate%3D20120718%26amp%3BCategory%3DNEWS01%26amp%3BArtNo%3D307180060%26amp%3BRef%3DAR%26amp%3BMaxW%3D640%26amp%3BBorder%3D0%26amp%3BCommuters-again-facing-traffic-congestion-heading-into-downtown&hash=15f6fbbbfd6898d3f548e3ffdf1e13b59670a282)
There I agree with you ("One time doesn't make a habit," the French would say at this point.) But out at 265 or even 264, "Downtown Louisville" seems to me a perfectly reasonable, even obvious choice. I've said many times in control-city discussions that I don't see why there's a taboo on two at the same sign, so you could satisfy through traffic as well:
"65 South"
"Downtown Louisville"
"Nashville"
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 19, 2012, 11:59:42 AM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on July 19, 2012, 01:39:00 AM
In certain European countries, the actual standard is that once a place appears on directional signage, you should be able to follow that place name (at confusion points...) all the way to it. (And "to it" means "to the center of it.") Granted, this is because they don't know how to use route numbers in Europe....
at a particular point when one approaches the outskirts of a city, the signs start to explicitly denote the center. For example "Hannover-Zentrum" in Germany, with a corresponding symbol.
Yep!
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on July 09, 2012, 12:17:35 PM
Hello folks! This is (kinda sorta) a spinoff of the "Control Cities in Your State" thread.
Are there any control city designations that, while not necessarily wrong, are quite odd in the grand scheme of things?
I-95 south in RI seems to deny the existance of any control cities in CT. If they refer to any cities south of their border, the closest one they refer to is New York, like CT doesn't even exist.
I found this website (http://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/i395.html) which talks about CT roads and it might shed light on this subject, specifically this blurb about CT/RI:
Connecticut vs. Rhode Island
Some of the following is based on fact, and some has not been proven. It concerns why the Connecticut Turnpike was routed by Norwich and Killingly instead of continuing along the shore; and what might have been some consequences decades later.
Reasons for locating the Turnpike northward certainly included helping Norwich and Killingly. State Senator Lawrence Gilman (not the music critic) is said to have favored a highway linking Norwich to the shoreline. The Turnpike's original name is the Greenwich-Killingly Expressway, for the towns at each end.
As the Turnpike was being designed, the allocation of a federal Interstate route along the shore was already well-known. Some say that the Killingly alignment was also intended to secure a longer extent of future Interstate 95 in Connecticut. This would have resulted in fewer miles for Rhode Island, as I-95 would have proceeded straight across to Providence; under Ocean State protest, as the story goes, Interstate 95 was ruled to go closer to the shore.
The final part of the story: In the early 1980s, when Connecticut needed Rhode Island's help to keep the eastern I-84 proposal alive, Rhode Island remembered the Connecticut Turnpike/I-95 attempt and "got revenge" by stuffing I-84.
Again, I've heard this from just a few people, and not seen any sources you could call official. But the story is interesting nonetheless. In my opinion, Rhode Island wanted to get back at Connecticut even more and did so by not recognizing any control cities in CT on south I-95.
I hadn't looked at this thread in a while. It made me think of the strange signs on I-95 near Trenton. See below (from AARoads.com). Who the heck abbreviates "Pennsylvania" as "Penna"???
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/new_jersey050/i-095_sb_exit_005b_03.jpg)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 06, 2012, 09:57:13 AM
Who the heck abbreviates "Pennsylvania" as "Penna"???
Penna does.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/PA/PA19610811i1.jpg)
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/PA/PA19380111i1.jpg)
Adding to above^
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_251/120651139047656a.jpg
[Odd, no matter where I pull an image from the forum won't let me embed it. I just get the little 'picture broken' icon.]
Funny, I've been on the Pennsylvania Turnpike many times and I can't say I've ever noticed that abbreviation. What a strange way of abbreviating it.
Yep. One old style of state route shield for PA (see the decommissioned ones here (http://www.pahighways.com/state/PA1-50.html)) had "Penna" in it, probably where the abbreviation in the Turnpike shield came from.
Quote from: Roadsguy on December 06, 2012, 12:44:16 PM
Yep. One old style of state route shield for PA (see the decommissioned ones here (http://www.pahighways.com/state/PA1-50.html)) had "Penna" in it, probably where the abbreviation in the Turnpike shield came from.
the oldest state route shields said ROUTE instead of PENNA, while the US route shields said PENNSYLVANIA. I believe the switch was made universally in 1940 to accommodate the new PENNA TURNPIKE shields.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 06, 2012, 09:57:13 AM
Who the heck abbreviates "Pennsylvania" as "Penna"???
http://www.paturnpike.com/
Same it's a lousy graphic rather than what their sign looks like, but the turnpike has always used the abbreviated PENNA on their shield.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 06, 2012, 09:57:13 AM
I hadn't looked at this thread in a while. It made me think of the strange signs on I-95 near Trenton. See below (from AARoads.com). Who the heck abbreviates "Pennsylvania" as "Penna"???
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/new_jersey050/i-095_sb_exit_005b_03.jpg)
My first roommate in college was from Pennsylvania and he hated Penna... but what got him really upset was "Pennsy"...The Star Ledger used to use that back in the 1980s..
Quote from: jwolfer on December 07, 2012, 02:29:41 PM
My first roommate in college was from Pennsylvania and he hated Penna... but what got him really upset was "Pennsy"...The Star Ledger used to use that back in the 1980s..
"Pennsy" has long been a slang name for the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Quote from: jwolfer on December 07, 2012, 02:29:41 PM
My first roommate in college was from Pennsylvania and he hated Penna... but what got him really upset was "Pennsy"...The Star Ledger used to use that back in the 1980s..
For some reason, I find "Pennsy" more appealing than "Penna."
Quote from: PennDOTFan on December 07, 2012, 03:00:56 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on December 07, 2012, 02:29:41 PM
My first roommate in college was from Pennsylvania and he hated Penna... but what got him really upset was "Pennsy"...The Star Ledger used to use that back in the 1980s..
For some reason, I find "Pennsy" more appealing than "Penna."
There is a Pennsy Drive (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=pennsy+drive,+landover,+md&hl=en&ll=38.936046,-76.88108&spn=0.01866,0.038581&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=38.593229,79.013672&t=h&hnear=Pennsy+Dr,+Lanham,+Prince+George%27s,+Maryland+20785&z=15) in the Landover section of Prince George's County, Maryland.
It's mostly a warehouse area, and yes, nearby is Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, once owned and operated by the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Quote from: doogie1303 on November 30, 2012, 10:03:37 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on July 09, 2012, 12:17:35 PM
Hello folks! This is (kinda sorta) a spinoff of the "Control Cities in Your State" thread.
Are there any control city designations that, while not necessarily wrong, are quite odd in the grand scheme of things?
I-95 south in RI seems to deny the existance of any control cities in CT. If they refer to any cities south of their border, the closest one they refer to is New York, like CT doesn't even exist.
I found this website (http://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/i395.html) which talks about CT roads and it might shed light on this subject, specifically this blurb about CT/RI:
Connecticut vs. Rhode Island
Some of the following is based on fact, and some has not been proven. It concerns why the Connecticut Turnpike was routed by Norwich and Killingly instead of continuing along the shore; and what might have been some consequences decades later.
Reasons for locating the Turnpike northward certainly included helping Norwich and Killingly. State Senator Lawrence Gilman (not the music critic) is said to have favored a highway linking Norwich to the shoreline. The Turnpike's original name is the Greenwich-Killingly Expressway, for the towns at each end.
As the Turnpike was being designed, the allocation of a federal Interstate route along the shore was already well-known. Some say that the Killingly alignment was also intended to secure a longer extent of future Interstate 95 in Connecticut. This would have resulted in fewer miles for Rhode Island, as I-95 would have proceeded straight across to Providence; under Ocean State protest, as the story goes, Interstate 95 was ruled to go closer to the shore.
The final part of the story: In the early 1980s, when Connecticut needed Rhode Island's help to keep the eastern I-84 proposal alive, Rhode Island remembered the Connecticut Turnpike/I-95 attempt and "got revenge" by stuffing I-84.
Again, I've heard this from just a few people, and not seen any sources you could call official. But the story is interesting nonetheless.
In my opinion, Rhode Island wanted to get back at Connecticut even more and did so by not recognizing any control cities in CT on south I-95.
Because when RI tries to recognize CT control cities on exit signs, they can't get it right. The US 6 West sign just before the 6/10 split, and the signs on I-95 Exits in Downtown Providence direct you to "Hartford Ct." The fact that there is a capital C and small t would tell me that there's a street nearby off the exit called Hartford Court. Took them years to get the signs right on I-295
'Ct.' is a valid abbreviation for Connecticut...
Quote from: NE2 on December 07, 2012, 11:56:21 PM
'Ct.' is a valid abbreviation for Connecticut...
It's always written as capital C capital T on envelopes. Capital C and small t is the abbreviation for court.
Quote from: NE2 on December 07, 2012, 11:56:21 PM
'Ct.' is a valid abbreviation for Connecticut...
Is it? I thought the traditional, pre-postal abbreviation was "Conn." ...
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2012, 12:09:38 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 07, 2012, 11:56:21 PM
'Ct.' is a valid abbreviation for Connecticut...
Is it? I thought the traditional, pre-postal abbreviation was "Conn." ...
True. My mother still writes Conn. when addressing envelopes (generation gap). But with the capitalization discussion, the 2 letter state abbreviations (CT, NY, MA) are all in caps. The street abbreviations (St., Rd., Av(e)., Ct.) are all capitalized first letters, but small second letters.
How about the use of "THE" when 2 or more cities share something in common.
The Amboys- Perth and South Amboys in New Jersey
The Palm Beaches- Palm Beach, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach Gardens, Royal Palm Beach
The Oranges- Orange, East Orange, West Orange, South Orange in NJ again.
Odd, but effective, I must say.
Then like others have been saying about NY over Philadelphia in MD for I-95 NB.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2012, 12:09:38 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 07, 2012, 11:56:21 PM
'Ct.' is a valid abbreviation for Connecticut...
Is it? I thought the traditional, pre-postal abbreviation was "Conn." ...
'a' vs. 'the'...
Quote from: roadman on December 07, 2012, 02:35:22 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on December 07, 2012, 02:29:41 PM
My first roommate in college was from Pennsylvania and he hated Penna... but what got him really upset was "Pennsy"...The Star Ledger used to use that back in the 1980s..
"Pennsy" has long been a slang name for the Pennsylvania Railroad.
It sounds like what William Penn would be nicknamed if he played hockey nowadays.
Quote from: roadman65 on December 08, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
How about the use of "THE" when 2 or more cities share something in common.
The Amboys- Perth and South Amboys in New Jersey
The Palm Beaches- Palm Beach, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach Gardens, Royal Palm Beach
The Oranges- Orange, East Orange, West Orange, South Orange in NJ again.
Odd, but effective, I must say.
Then like others have been saying about NY over Philadelphia in MD for I-95 NB.
You left out what's probably the most well-known version of this trope...The Hamptons.
'Course, I dunno if NYSDOT uses that as a control point or not.
"Conn." and "Ct." are both traditional abbreviations for Connecticut, as are "Penna." and "Pa."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_abbreviations
I will grant, however, that "Ct." was probably less common than "Conn." in postal addressing--though it has to be noted that a similar ambiguity arises between "CT" for "Court" and "CT" for "Connecticut" when all-uppercase unpunctuated address labelling is used (as used to be, and probably still is, the preferred USPS standard for typed or machine-generated address labeling).
As has been said, "Penna" is used in the Turnpike shields and once was in the state route shields.
Anyway, had to be done. :spin:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FlYoIY.png&hash=90d1627b0fb0578ed2e549eeb749f323fae895a5)
(Edited to fix wording of first sentence.)
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on December 07, 2012, 11:44:07 PM
Because when RI tries to recognize CT control cities on exit signs, they can't get it right. The US 6 West sign just before the 6/10 split, and the signs on I-95 Exits in Downtown Providence direct you to "Hartford Ct." The fact that there is a capital C and small t would tell me that there's a street nearby off the exit called Hartford Court. Took them years to get the signs right on I-295
True, I've seen this in several places on US 6, I believe there is even a BGS on I-95 North in Providence just after exit 19 (I-195) that says I-95 North "Boston Ma." instead of just Boston. I tried to pull it up on Street View to confirm but the pictures are too old, they still show all the construction on I-95 North from the "I-WAY" project.
Maybe RI is being extra cautious and wants to let people know which Hartford US 6 is going to as there are several cities/towns in New England named Hartford (can you name them all?).
As to using the "Ct." instead of "CT", I've seen abbreviations for Massachusetts done the same way, signed either as "Ma." or "MA".
It's better than I-95 in Kittery, ME, where the control cities near Exit 2 southbound simply say "New Hampshire | Massachusetts."
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on December 10, 2012, 09:33:12 PM
It's better than I-95 in Kittery, ME, where the control cities near Exit 2 southbound simply say "New Hampshire | Massachusetts."
as the control city for I-495 in Massachusetts is "N.H.-Maine", I am now led to wonder if there is any place in New Hampshire where one direction is signed "Maine" and the other "Massachusetts".
Back in the 80s a company in South Hackensack, NJ at the south end of Green Street, used to have its name, that was Bendix, as control city on US 46 for its Green Street exit. The sign would read:
Green Street
Bendix
Hackensack
I checked Street View and it is gone as of last time Google captured it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 09, 2012, 01:17:47 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 08, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
How about the use of "THE" when 2 or more cities share something in common.
The Amboys- Perth and South Amboys in New Jersey
The Palm Beaches- Palm Beach, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach Gardens, Royal Palm Beach
The Oranges- Orange, East Orange, West Orange, South Orange in NJ again.
Odd, but effective, I must say.
Then like others have been saying about NY over Philadelphia in MD for I-95 NB.
You left out what's probably the most well-known version of this trope...The Hamptons.
'Course, I dunno if NYSDOT uses that as a control point or not.
In the UK they drop the article, for example referring to Great Shelford and Little Shelford collectively simply as "Shelfords" on guide signs. I like the "The..." construction better, personally.
Here's an example of a UK sign using directionals as controls (obviously from southern Scotland):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbrd.co.uk%2Froadsfaq%2Fimg%2Fm6scotland.jpg&hash=46517f1e99f50b312f4409c693dd3ddcecbb2b23)
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 09, 2012, 01:17:47 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 08, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
How about the use of "THE" when 2 or more cities share something in common.
The Amboys- Perth and South Amboys in New Jersey
The Palm Beaches- Palm Beach, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach Gardens, Royal Palm Beach
The Oranges- Orange, East Orange, West Orange, South Orange in NJ again.
Odd, but effective, I must say.
Then like others have been saying about NY over Philadelphia in MD for I-95 NB.
You left out what's probably the most well-known version of this trope...The Hamptons.
'Course, I dunno if NYSDOT uses that as a control point or not.
NC does the same thing with the Brunswick Co. Beaches (Oak Island, Holden, Ocean Isle, Sunset) on I-140 and US 17
So many examples of this in North Carolina, and after checking the previous pages to see if any of them had been mentioned, and had not, here we go...
Award for probably the two smallest control cities in the country with two interstates each
-Statesville (I-40, I-77) which is used SEVERAL times on each interstate while only bein 40 miles or so from both Winston-Salem and Charlotte, and not much further from Asheville.
-Benson (I-40, I-95) which is less than 40 miles from Raleigh. (In Raleigh they finally added a Wilmington control city under Benson near Wade Ave Exit)
And some honorable mentions-
Smithfield, Wilson, Roanoke Rapids, Rocky Mount, Mount Airy, Gastonia, Burlington (although it's not so small anymore).
North Carolina, in a general sense, won't use cities out of state until you get almost on the SC State Line when Columbia is used on I-77 (Charlotte is still used practically in town), and also in Charlotte when Spartanburg SC is used on I-85.
Up at the VA State Line on I-77 Wytheville VA is used, on I-85 north of Durham I believe they finally mention Petersburg VA, I-95 they use Emporia VA oddly enough.
Quote from: motorway on December 23, 2012, 11:47:44 PMIn the UK they drop the article, for example referring to Great Shelford and Little Shelford collectively simply as "Shelfords" on guide signs. I like the "The..." construction better, personally.
No, they don't drop the article. The example that you give is botched.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 08, 2012, 06:54:49 PMIt sounds like what William Penn would be nicknamed if he played hockey nowadays.
Nah, nowadays he'd be called Minty or something, being descended from a guy with no link to Penn, Buckinghamshire (who was born in Minety, Gloucestershire) who changed his name to give him link to the family there for nefarious purposes. William Penn (the state founder, not his dad the Admiral whom the state is named after) may have actually visited Penn, but hung out elsewhere in South Bucks and lived in Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire
Quote from: Road Hog on December 31, 2012, 10:35:44 AM
Here's an example of a UK sign using directionals as controls (obviously from southern Scotland):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbrd.co.uk%2Froadsfaq%2Fimg%2Fm6scotland.jpg&hash=46517f1e99f50b312f4409c693dd3ddcecbb2b23)
A bit ugly (especially that temporary (A74)(M) plate that would have (M6) underneath - the patch fell off the other one). Ironic example as Scotland goes for more European-style far off control destinations (other than in the central belt, but even then they are further apart than England) and doesn't often use 'The NORTH', 'The SOUTH', etc like England and Wales - and uses them like cardinal directions. I think the 90s sections of A74(M) are the only road that uses it out of the Highlands and Islands. Beattock is a local destination there, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Carlisle are the 'primary destinations'.
I think Scotland designated its Primary Destinations oddly - while you have tiny Crianlarich, which is a major enough node for West Coast traffic to be worth signing, you don't have much bigger Cumbernauld, which performs a similar function in the Central Belt. Likewise Newtownmore performs a similar role in the middle of the Highlands and isn't used on the A9 (though is a primary destination) - more touristy Aviemore would be better though. They often only use one destination - the new M74 through Southern Glasgow has 'Carlisle' as the only mainline destination heading south/east (actually it might have an (M73) in places). Hamilton or Motherwell would be useful as large towns on the edge of the urban area and/or Rutherglen for a local destination. It's pretty mad to English eyes.
If you look at some food products, you'll see the following:
"Reg Penna Dept Ag"
Quote from: jcarte29 on December 31, 2012, 11:35:48 AM
So many examples of this in North Carolina, and after checking the previous pages to see if any of them had been mentioned, and had not, here we go...
Award for probably the two smallest control cities in the country with two interstates each
-Statesville (I-40, I-77) which is used SEVERAL times on each interstate while only bein 40 miles or so from both Winston-Salem and Charlotte, and not much further from Asheville.
-Benson (I-40, I-95) which is less than 40 miles from Raleigh. (In Raleigh they finally added a Wilmington control city under Benson near Wade Ave Exit)
And some honorable mentions-
Smithfield, Wilson, Roanoke Rapids, Rocky Mount, Mount Airy, Gastonia, Burlington (although it's not so small anymore).
North Carolina, in a general sense, won't use cities out of state until you get almost on the SC State Line when Columbia is used on I-77 (Charlotte is still used practically in town), and also in Charlotte when Spartanburg SC is used on I-85.
Up at the VA State Line on I-77 Wytheville VA is used, on I-85 north of Durham I believe they finally mention Petersburg VA, I-95 they use Emporia VA oddly enough.
NC will sign Richmond in VA as far south as Benson on I-95. Also Richmond was used even before the section from Kenly to Gold Rock was completed. At the current US 301 and NC 4 junction, it had Richmond used as control point from then numberless NC 4 directing motorists from NB US 301 back on to the interstate from where they were traveling the US route for several miles at the time.
Quote from: jcarte29 on December 31, 2012, 11:35:48 AM
And some honorable mentions-
Smithfield, Wilson, Roanoke Rapids, Rocky Mount, Mount Airy, Gastonia, Burlington (although it's not so small anymore).
"Rocky Mount NC" is used by VDOT on southbound I-95 prior to the I-95/I-295 interchange in Henrico County, north of Richmond (here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=henrico+county+va&hl=en&ll=37.672612,-77.448549&spn=0.009426,0.019097&safe=off&hnear=Henrico,+Virginia&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=37.672747,-77.448572&panoid=hfzOBZxdVWPMHjhUA6zYRw&cbp=12,164.02,,0,-4.25) on GSV).
I always liked how the NYC area used to use ( and still does in some places) bridges and tunnels as the control city. Many folks view bridges like the GWB or Verazzano Bridge as points as it is evident where they lead to.
Some users on this forum are kind of upset that NYCDOT is now using Newark, NJ as control point on I-95 SB in The Bronx instead of the former Geo Washington Br. as the old pull through signing used to have.
In a way, being from New Jersey originally, I always felt insulted that no place in NYC did they ever recognize any city in New Jersey on signs for roads leading into the Garden State. In fact, the state as a whole, was treated like a city and still is at Exit 15 on the NY Thruway near Suffern and at two other Thruway exits in Rockland County.
Even in PA and DE you will find New Jersey or PA cities (like Easton) right before the Delaware River as control points on highways leading into NJ and on I-78 after Easton is used as last PA control city it jumps over NJ and right to using New York City. Only along I-95 is the City of Trenton used from Philadelphia all the way to the Delaware River is a NJ community used (as far as I have seen) outside of the Garden State.
Nonetheless, as a grownup now, Bridges or Tunnels, if they are popular, should be used if applicable. I realize, of course, that NJ is very small as its longest interstate is less than 100 miles long and has wall to wall cities, and no large stand alone in the middle of a rural area (like Providence for smaller Rhode Island) or at least semi-rural. It is in the shadow of NY and Philadelphia and even has no VHF stations on TV because of it.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 02, 2013, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: jcarte29 on December 31, 2012, 11:35:48 AM
And some honorable mentions-
Smithfield, Wilson, Roanoke Rapids, Rocky Mount, Mount Airy, Gastonia, Burlington (although it's not so small anymore).
"Rocky Mount NC" is used by VDOT on southbound I-95 prior to the I-95/I-295 interchange in Henrico County, north of Richmond (here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=henrico+county+va&hl=en&ll=37.672612,-77.448549&spn=0.009426,0.019097&safe=off&hnear=Henrico,+Virginia&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=37.672747,-77.448572&panoid=hfzOBZxdVWPMHjhUA6zYRw&cbp=12,164.02,,0,-4.25) on GSV).
And Richmond is used for US 301 near Rocky Mount with the NC towns it passes en route. \
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Rocky+Mt,+NC&hl=en&ll=36.038255,-77.762969&spn=0.008901,0.021136&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=9.892242,21.643066&oq=rocky+m&t=h&hnear=Rocky+Mt,+Edgecombe,+North+Carolina&z=16&layer=c&cbll=36.038515,-77.762822&panoid=7xmN7ty-9C-jU0nRZ7HP4w&cbp=12,45,,0,-22.5
I do want to ask, what was greened out of the cities that lies beneath Richmond on US 301?
Probably Battleboro, which was absorbed into Rocky Mount in 1996 (http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions/1995/Bills/House/HTML/H1177v1.html).
QuoteNo, they don't drop the article. The example that you give is botched.
It may be that the authorities posted the sign incorrectly, but there are a few different examples in the area (also signage for "Abingtons," "Swaffhams," "Mordens," and a few others I've seen), so the error appears to be systematic, at least in Cambridgeshire and Suffolk (the area with which I'm most familiar). Given the prevalence of the practice in that neck of the woods I figured the two usages were signed interchangeably.
I do not know if anyone brought up the fact that Ashland, KY is used on I-64 east of Lexington. Ashland is not even located near the interstate at all, and certainly not even served by a x64 spur or loop either. Yet it gets mentioned and it is not even one of the state's largest cities. Huntington, WV is better suited to be control city or even Charleston, WV for that matter.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 10, 2012, 02:51:34 AM
Definitely up there with I-80 in Youngstown, Ohio having New York City as a control city, two states away.
I am new to the Youngstown area and I find this so annoying that I just HAD to find this thread and post about it if it were not already in here. Just use Sharon, PA as the control city... Not that hard! Also, 680 South lists Pittsburgh... I guess it's legitimate because there isn't really anything en route until the Turnpike, but still annoying.
When I moved to Colorado (mid-1980's) I-270W and I-25N used Cheyenne as the control city, even as far south as Commerce City/Denver. A few years later that was changed to Ft. Collins...
SB I-285 north of Atlanta has Tampa as a control city, while SB I-75 has Macon as a control city. Tampa is a good five hours south of Macon (both are on I-75)
Quote from: ftballfan on March 07, 2013, 10:27:21 PM
SB I-285 north of Atlanta has Tampa as a control city, while SB I-75 has Macon as a control city. Tampa is a good five hours south of Macon (both are on I-75)
I suppose there is the assumption that I-285 is long-haul through traffic, and therefore less likely to stop in Macon than in Tampa.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 11, 2012, 10:19:41 AM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on December 10, 2012, 09:33:12 PM
It's better than I-95 in Kittery, ME, where the control cities near Exit 2 southbound simply say "New Hampshire | Massachusetts."
as the control city for I-495 in Massachusetts is "N.H.-Maine", I am now led to wonder if there is any place in New Hampshire where one direction is signed "Maine" and the other "Massachusetts".
When I heard the MUTCD does not allow states to be used as control points, I did not think this relatively new installation (coming off the Portsmouth circle towards I-95, Exit 5, NH) would feature the points it does...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3B7NkMsqtPs/UTqaSIPId2I/AAAAAAAAR5g/rOfBf3EtgmI/s855/NB-Exit+05-ramp-.jpg)
... especially since the destinations on the I-95 South sign used to read simply HAMPTON/BOSTON.
(not my photo)
Why does it say "To All Maine Points" and not just "Maine?
"
The sign maker gets paid by the letter?
Because "All Maine Points" is not a state name? :hmmm:
Quote from: Interstate Trav on July 09, 2012, 01:55:57 PM
San Fernando for I-210 Westbound
I'm not sure if "Oregon Coast" along US 101 would qualify, or "Other Desert Cities" on I-10 East.
San Fernando is a holdover from SR-118 days, which did go through San Fernando.
As well as the infamous and vague NJ signs, "Shore Points."
I find it odd that nearly ALL signs for I-90 East in Ohio use Erie PA or Erie Pa. as the control city, while I-90 West in New York state will simply use Erie as the control city.
New York did not put the state along with the out-of-state cities (Erie, Scranton, Danbury). Only recently have they started to do this.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 08, 2013, 11:18:39 PM
Why does it say "To All Maine Points" and not just "Maine?
"
NHDOT probably wants to try and get everyone headed to Maine onto 95, even though Bypass US 1 also goes straight to Kittery, ME, and you could take NH 16 from the turnpike farther north to cross into Maine. So by wording the sign "To All Maine Points" rather than just "Maine", they imply that this road doesn't just go to Maine, it's THE road that goes to Maine.
Not meant to be an insult to those from the Midwest, but perhaps NYSDOT assumes that locals understand which state goes with these control cities.
Quote from: djsinco on March 12, 2013, 02:12:23 AM
Not meant to be an insult to those from the Midwest, but perhaps NYSDOT assumes that locals understand which state goes with these control cities.
As a Midwesterner, I take offense to that! lol j/k Anyway, most places I have been around the Midwest, do not use the state name with the city name unless it is an out of state smaller city or a common name. For example, in Illinois on I-80, it is signed as either Gary, Indiana or just Indiana. You never see it as just Gary. But Indianapolis is always without the state name since it is a big city.
As to the common names, take Jackson for example. If you are in Memphis, you have both Jackson, MS and Jackson, TN close enough to Memphis that a state name is needed so that the dumb people don't head to the wrong Jackson.
speaking of midwest - I know Kansas has some pretty obscure control cities sometimes, at least for its two-laners. I remember getting to a junction with an east-west US highway that happened to be running north-south at that location due to it following section lines. since the route was not signed with cardinal directions, and I was not familiar with either town listed, I had to pull out the map to figure out which way to turn!
(I forget the route number and the towns offhand, but let's just say they certainly weren't Kansas City and Denver!)
Quote from: roadman65 on December 08, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
How about the use of "THE" when 2 or more cities share something in common.
The Amboys- Perth and South Amboys in New Jersey
The Palm Beaches- Palm Beach, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach Gardens, Royal Palm Beach
The Oranges- Orange, East Orange, West Orange, South Orange in NJ again.
Odd, but effective, I must say.
Then like others have been saying about NY over Philadelphia in MD for I-95 NB.
I think you can add "the Caldwells", in NJ to that list.
Quote from: jas on March 15, 2013, 07:33:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 08, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
How about the use of "THE" when 2 or more cities share something in common.
The Amboys- Perth and South Amboys in New Jersey
The Palm Beaches- Palm Beach, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach Gardens, Royal Palm Beach
The Oranges- Orange, East Orange, West Orange, South Orange in NJ again.
Odd, but effective, I must say.
Then like others have been saying about NY over Philadelphia in MD for I-95 NB.
I think you can add "the Caldwells", in NJ to that list.
Also The Ridgefields, and yet not The Brunswicks...
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 12, 2013, 01:36:33 PM
speaking of midwest - I know Kansas has some pretty obscure control cities sometimes, at least for its two-laners. I remember getting to a junction with an east-west US highway that happened to be running north-south at that location due to it following section lines. since the route was not signed with cardinal directions, and I was not familiar with either town listed, I had to pull out the map to figure out which way to turn!
(I forget the route number and the towns offhand, but let's just say they certainly weren't Kansas City and Denver!)
Kansas seems to use the next county seat on directional signage on surface highways, regardless of what lies beyond it. Coming west from Dodge City, you would expect to see Garden City (pop. 26,000), which is only 50 miles, but instead they use Cimarron (pop. 2,200).
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on March 16, 2013, 09:39:50 AMKansas seems to use the next county seat on directional signage on surface highways, regardless of what lies beyond it. Coming west from Dodge City, you would expect to see Garden City (pop. 26,000), which is only 50 miles, but instead they use Cimarron (pop. 2,200).
Yup, county seats figure in the control point assignment hierarchy. Per KDOT's
Highway Sign Manual (2007), KDOT off-Interstate standards call for a choice of control point which meets one of the following criteria, listed in descending order of priority:
* County seat within 100 miles
* Incorporated city with population greater than 1000 and within 100 miles
* Major highway route
* Incorporated city with sub-1000 population
* Unincorporated community
Since Kansas is essentially a checkerboard of counties with a typical width and height around 30 miles, this policy is part of the reason nearby county seats "hide" only slightly more distant but much more populous cities. On US 54, for example, distance signing for Wichita does not appear until Greensburg (about 100 miles out). And since the state highway system is designed to provide north-south and east-west connections at almost all county seats, it is fairly rare for anything other than a county seat to be offered as a destination on signs which ask drivers to make a choice of direction, though routes are fairly frequently signed on distance signs (in text form only, with US routes almost always receiving an unnecessary hyphen).
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 16, 2013, 10:33:27 AM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on March 16, 2013, 09:39:50 AMKansas seems to use the next county seat on directional signage on surface highways, regardless of what lies beyond it. Coming west from Dodge City, you would expect to see Garden City (pop. 26,000), which is only 50 miles, but instead they use Cimarron (pop. 2,200).
Yup, county seats figure in the control point assignment hierarchy. Per KDOT's Highway Sign Manual (2007), KDOT off-Interstate standards call for a choice of control point which meets one of the following criteria, listed in descending order of priority:
* County seat within 100 miles
* Incorporated city with population greater than 1000 and within 100 miles
* Major highway route
* Incorporated city with sub-1000 population
* Unincorporated community
Since Kansas is essentially a checkerboard of counties with a typical width and height around 30 miles, this policy is part of the reason nearby county seats "hide" only slightly more distant but much more populous cities. On US 54, for example, distance signing for Wichita does not appear until Greensburg (about 100 miles out). And since the state highway system is designed to provide north-south and east-west connections at almost all county seats, it is fairly rare for anything other than a county seat to be offered as a destination on signs which ask drivers to make a choice of direction, though routes are fairly frequently signed on distance signs (in text form only, with US routes almost always receiving an unnecessary hyphen).
This is exactly why I believe that US routes should have similar mileage signs that the Interstates do. In the case of US 54 in Kansas, if I was just east of US 83 in Liberal, I would use Kismet, pop 466, (which is the next town) or Plains (next town with 1134), Meade (next county seat), Wichita (next city with a good sized pop). I wish that the states would not treat US routes like a plain old state highway.
However, in many states (esp. the Northeast) US highways aren't any different than any other state roads. IE. Boston Post Rd (US-1)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 07, 2013, 10:30:03 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on March 07, 2013, 10:27:21 PM
SB I-285 north of Atlanta has Tampa as a control city, while SB I-75 has Macon as a control city. Tampa is a good five hours south of Macon (both are on I-75)
I suppose there is the assumption that I-285 is long-haul through traffic, and therefore less likely to stop in Macon than in Tampa.
I'd be curious as to which section of I-285 this was on... northwest or northeast? If it's SB I-285 on the northeast side of Atlanta, it seems like either Macon or Tampa would be okay. (Tampa still seems a little strange though.) If it's SB I-285 on the northwest side of Atlanta, wouldn't Montgomery make more sense?
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on March 18, 2013, 02:29:22 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 07, 2013, 10:30:03 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on March 07, 2013, 10:27:21 PM
SB I-285 north of Atlanta has Tampa as a control city, while SB I-75 has Macon as a control city. Tampa is a good five hours south of Macon (both are on I-75)
I suppose there is the assumption that I-285 is long-haul through traffic, and therefore less likely to stop in Macon than in Tampa.
I'd be curious as to which section of I-285 this was on... northwest or northeast? If it's SB I-285 on the northeast side of Atlanta, it seems like either Macon or Tampa would be okay. (Tampa still seems a little strange though.) If it's SB I-285 on the northwest side of Atlanta, wouldn't Montgomery make more sense?
I seem to recall these signs located on the Northwest Quadrant of the bypass. It would make sense for Montgomery to be a long term control city (seeing that you hit I-85 first before I-75). At the same time, I'm sure the current setup was done with the highest consideration given to those driving on I-75 Southbound.
I'd bet in the Northeast Quadrant (where I-85 and I-285 intersect), I-285 south is given Montgomery with consideration to I-85 south traffic, although you run into I-75 before you hit I-85.
Recently returning from Iowa, I was quite surprised to see I-80 given Chicago. I can understand why, but the oddity lies at the I-74/80/280 interchange. Heading eastbound on I-280, there is an indication that traffic looking to access I-88 should use I-80 west. They could have used a sign that said, "To Chicago via I-88 East, use I-80 West." Despite the fact that I-88 is tolled, it's fair to give drivers all options.
They could have used a sign similar to what I read heading to Cedar Rapids, which said, "To Des Moines, use I-280 West or I-80 West." It could have read, "To Chicago, use I-80 East or I-88 East (with a small sign under the shield saying "Via I-80 west")." That's just my opinion.
Quote from: spmkam on March 17, 2013, 02:30:51 PM
However, in many states (esp. the Northeast) US highways aren't any different than any other state roads. IE. Boston Post Rd (US-1)
You could still do that in places like New England especially with large chunks of US 6, US 7, US 44, US 202.
Quote from: zorb58 on February 21, 2013, 12:53:20 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on July 10, 2012, 02:51:34 AM
Definitely up there with I-80 in Youngstown, Ohio having New York City as a control city, two states away.
I am new to the Youngstown area and I find this so annoying that I just HAD to find this thread and post about it if it were not already in here. Just use Sharon, PA as the control city... Not that hard!
I disagree. As a native of central Pennsylvania, I must say that I felt insulted the first time I returned east from Ohio and saw "New York" as the control city. As if there wasn't anything of importance between Youngstown and New York!
But in terms of significant cities, that's exactly true. Eastbound I-80 traffic likely includes some vehicles bound for State College, Williamsport, and Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, but any one of those cities is too far off the Interstate and too small a proportion of overall traffic to rightfully be considered a control point. "Sharon" is so useless (to anyone who isn't one of the 13,963 who live in Sharon) as to be completely ridiculous. As are DuBois, Clarion, Bellefonte...
So it's a difficult question, and almost any control city you would designate would probably be irrelevant to the majority of motorists heading eastbound on I-80 at that point. But considering that control cities exist primarily for the purposes of aiding long-distance travelers who are unfamiliar with the area, New York, unfortunately, is the best choice.
Quote from: briantroutman on March 20, 2013, 08:20:01 PM
"Sharon" is so useless (to anyone who isn't one of the 13,963 who live in Sharon) as to be completely ridiculous. As are DuBois, Clarion, Bellefonte...
Sharon's population might be that low now, but I think it was a
lot higher back when I-80 was built. Currently I imagine Sharon refers to the whole Sharon/Hermitage/Farrell area, which, while not real huge, is still significant.
Some of the other towns have value as control cities beyond the towns themselves. For instance, DuBois is also where I-80 junctions with US-219, a pretty important non-interstate N/S corridor.
I have seen Gatorland, an Orlando, FL tourist attraction, used as a control city opposite Kissimmee on EB Osceola Parkway in Kissimmee, FL. Besides the sign having unusual arrows, they feature an actual city and private business on the same sign which is what makes it odd. Most areas use separate signs for this, but then again the Osceola Parkway is one of the few roads around that charges a toll on an at grade arterial. Why should their signing be any less odd than this.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 21, 2013, 07:51:00 PM
I have seen Gatorland, an Orlando, FL tourist attraction, used as a control city opposite Kissimmee on EB Osceola Parkway in Kissimmee, FL. Besides the sign having unusual arrows, they feature an actual city and private business on the same sign which is what makes it odd. Most areas use separate signs for this, but then again the Osceola Parkway is one of the few roads around that charges a toll on an at grade arterial. Why should their signing be any less odd than this.
meanwhile, here in California, despite our budget crisis, we have not yet sold Disneyland the control city rights on I-5 between San Diego and Los Angeles.
seriously, who actually goes to Santa Ana?
At the intersection of WA-127 and WA-26 in Eastern Washington, there's a sign that lists "Vantage" as a control city. It's a small city on one side of the Vantage Bridge (on I-90) that no one stops at.
I-605 Northbound should have Duarte or Azusa as a control city. While southbound should have Long Beach or Seal Beach. That Thru Traffic nonsense is just silly.
And for goodness sakes, on the 710, lets change the Pasadena control city thing. The 710 going there still has plenty of hurdles to jump through before that happens. Maybe use Alhambra? Speaking of control cities on the 710, I saw Los Angeles as a control city on the northbound on ramp at Wardlow Rd in Long Beach. First time I ever seen Los Angeles mentioned on the 710. LA could work as a control city as well.
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.821329,-118.205887&spn=0.001995,0.00284&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=33.821328,-118.206401&panoid=F6FEfskcQ9EUROYI095VCA&cbp=12,343.12,,1,1.69
I say use Long Beach for 605 South, but keep Pasadena for the 710. Los Angeles does have a way of showing up on all sorts of different freeways and roads in the State. But 710 North, well that is the best way to connect the two cities.
My opinion:
605 N: Duarte. The City of Hope Hospital makes it a more important destination than Irwindale or Bradbury.
605 S: Seal Beach. If you are travelling on 10 or 60 or 91 from the Inland Empire, it's usually better to continue west to the 710 to reach Downtown Long Beach and the ports. To avoid confusion, sign 605 S for Seal Beach.
I would even go so far as to suggest that at the 405-605-22 interchange, 405 N should be signed as Long Beach and Santa Monica. Traffic to Downtown LB should take 405 to 710, not drive down 7th Street for miles. 405 S should be signed for both Seal Beach and San Diego, to guide the 605 traffic to Seal Beach Blvd.
710 N: Greenout all Pasadena references and replace with Alhambra.
At Exit 263 on I-90 in Chamberlain, the control city is Pukwana (a small town to the east). Who the heck would want to go there?
Quote from: Bigmikelakers on March 23, 2013, 06:22:28 AMSpeaking of control cities on the 710, I saw Los Angeles as a control city on the northbound on ramp at Wardlow Rd in Long Beach. First time I ever seen Los Angeles mentioned on the 710. LA could work as a control city as well.
I'm actually very surprised LA ISN'T a 710 control city - it is not only the most obvious direct route from downtown Long Beach to downtown LA, but its junction at I-5 in East Los Angeles is much closer to downtown than say, several other roads that do have LA as a control (thinking specifically of Route 14 south from the Antelope Valley and the extreme, but understandable example of Route 99 south from Stockton to Wheeler Ridge).
Pasadana functionally should be greened out until (in the far future) the section to 210 actually is completed.
Quote from: briantroutman on March 20, 2013, 08:20:01 PMAs a native of central Pennsylvania, I must say that I felt insulted the first time I returned east from Ohio and saw "New York" as the control city. As if there wasn't anything of importance between Youngstown and New York!
I thought it was kind of odd too. Personally, I'd use Sharon, State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the control cities in Pennsylvania.
If you want a real slap in the face, the control city on I-95 northbound in Baltimore is New York. Apparently Philadelphia doesn't exist.
Illinois uses a lot of small towns as control cities as well. I've seen Effingham, East St. Louis and Jacksonville used.
Quote from: TheStranger on October 19, 2013, 12:08:39 PM
Quote from: Bigmikelakers on March 23, 2013, 06:22:28 AMSpeaking of control cities on the 710, I saw Los Angeles as a control city on the northbound on ramp at Wardlow Rd in Long Beach. First time I ever seen Los Angeles mentioned on the 710. LA could work as a control city as well.
I'm actually very surprised LA ISN'T a 710 control city - it is not only the most obvious direct route from downtown Long Beach to downtown LA, but its junction at I-5 in East Los Angeles is much closer to downtown than say, several other roads that do have LA as a control (thinking specifically of Route 14 south from the Antelope Valley and the extreme, but understandable example of Route 99 south from Stockton to Wheeler Ridge).
Pasadana functionally should be greened out until (in the far future) the section to 210 actually is completed.
Agreed. Maybe even make Alhambra the control city north of the 5.
I assume that even with short-life retroreflective signs, Caltrans is nonetheless still in its "this sign is going to be here for 30 years" mindset.
Quote from: DBR96A on October 22, 2013, 02:44:22 AM
Quote from: briantroutman on March 20, 2013, 08:20:01 PMAs a native of central Pennsylvania, I must say that I felt insulted the first time I returned east from Ohio and saw "New York" as the control city. As if there wasn't anything of importance between Youngstown and New York!
I thought it was kind of odd too. Personally, I'd use Sharon, State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the control cities in Pennsylvania.
Is it only Ohio that does this and not Pennsylvania? AASHTO's book with the list of approved control cities is $30, so screw that, but a 2004 list (http://home.roadrunner.com/~pwolf/controlcities.html) says Sharon, Clarion, Du Bois, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Williamsport, Bloomsburg, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, and Delaware Water Gap should be there. It's been many years since I've driven I-80 in Pennsylvania, but do I remember seeing Clarion, Williamsport, Bloomsburg, Hazleton, and Del Water Gap on pull-thrus. The m.t.r. FAQ (http://www.roadfan.com/mtrfaq.html#a342) also lists Delaware Water Gap as a control city.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on October 22, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
Agreed. Maybe even make Alhambra the control city north of the 5.
I would even say "TO 60/10 EAST" might be a better control city than Alhambra, and SHOULD be there in the first place - I don't recall any signage on the Santa Ana Freeway northbound guiding to 60 east from my drive there Sunday night. (And certainly using that to bypass the East Los Angeles Interchange is never a bad idea.)
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on October 22, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
I assume that even with short-life retroreflective signs, Caltrans is nonetheless still in its "this sign is going to be here for 30 years" mindset.
It might more just be "let's replace old signs with new ones...maybe with an exit number but the same exact legend as previously." The one nice side effect of that is that it has resulted in new SoCal signage which notes the freeway name.
I thought Caltrans was no longer showing freeway names on new signage...... More inconsistency?
Quote from: SignBridge on October 22, 2013, 04:44:12 PM
I thought Caltrans was no longer showing freeway names on new signage...... More inconsistency?
Just saw a retroreflective 101/Hollywood Freeway sign at the Four-Level, along the northbound end of the Santa Ana Freeway:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Downtown+Los+Angeles&hl=en&ll=34.058007,-118.243856&spn=0.005097,0.004774&sll=37.269174,-119.306607&sspn=14.16472,19.555664&t=h&hnear=Downtown,+Los+Angeles,+California&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.058007,-118.243856&panoid=aXGAM319QDxs6vj6rA0NPg&cbp=12,323.14,,1,-7.84
Other examples:
710 south approaching 405/San Diego Freeway: http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/10399811023/
5 south approaching 170/Hollywood Freeway: http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/10399587675/
5 north approaching 710/Long Beach Freeway: http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/10399654355/in/set-72157636676683316 and http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/10399820363/in/set-72157636676683316
Ironically, there is an older, button copy sign with greened out Hollywood Freeway legend where 170 south feeds into 101 south -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/10399582534/in/set-72157636676683316
Quote from: SignBridge on October 22, 2013, 04:44:12 PM
I thought Caltrans was no longer showing freeway names on new signage...... More inconsistency?
Basically, yes.
With the inconsistent and varied naming of stretches of freeway by concurrent resolutions, it likely makes sense to have a policy that stops signing freeways with names. But I wish they'd simply pick an ubes alles name for stretches of freeway and sign the freeway with that name, and let people post whatever other desultory names they want to use as memorial "highway" signs.
Quote from: TheStranger on October 22, 2013, 04:22:50 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on October 22, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
Agreed. Maybe even make Alhambra the control city north of the 5.
I would even say "TO 60/10 EAST" might be a better control city than Alhambra, and SHOULD be there in the first place - I don't recall any signage on the Santa Ana Freeway northbound guiding to 60 east from my drive there Sunday night. (And certainly using that to bypass the East Los Angeles Interchange is never a bad idea.)
That would work too. I bypass the East LA Interchange quite often using the 710 to the 10.
Here in Myrtle Beach, SC 22 uses Conway as the westbound control city at US 17 and SC 31. Considering SC 22 is named the Conway Bypass, I think it would make more sense if 22 West was labeled as Marion or Florence, maybe even add an I-95 trailblazer to the sign.
SC 31 between SC 9 and US 501 uses one of the two routes on its pull-thrus. North Myrtle Beach or Wilmington would be more appropriate going northbound and Georgetown or Surfside Beach for southbound.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on October 22, 2013, 05:49:57 PM
But I wish they'd simply pick an ubes alles name for stretches of freeway and sign the freeway with that name, and let people post whatever other desultory names they want to use as memorial "highway" signs.
I think the de facto way it works out in California is thus:
- if it is signed without a route shield, and usually to the side of the shoulder, it is NOT a name that ends up in public usage. (Examples: 99% of memorial monikers. John F. Foran Freeway in SF, commonly known as the Southern Freeway or 280 Extension. James Lick Freeway, which is the northernmost segment of the Bayshore Freeway portion of 101)
- if it is signed on overheads - alongside a route shield - and on next-few-exits signs, it ABSOLUTELY is a common-usage name. Santa Ana Freeway, San Bernardino Freeway, San Diego Freeway, Santa Monica Freeway, Pomona Freeway, Hollywood Freeway, Ventura Freeway, Harbor Freeway, (the former) Pasadena Freeway, Golden State Freeway are the classic examples in Southern California; in the Bay Area, the Bayshore Freeway used to be more prevalent on next-few-exits signage but still has one example in San Francisco.
Examples instituted post-1990 and thus have been added to encourage usage:
Capital City Freeway in Sacramento (Business 80)
Martin Luther King Jr. Freeway in San Diego (Route 94)
the revived Arroyo Seco Parkway (state Route 110)
One interesting example that I'm not sure really has an equivalent can be found in Bakersfield:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/10340307064/in/set-72157636676683316
- Road name with shield signed to the right of the shoulder, often at route terminus. In the case of Interstate 580/MacArthur Freeway, that name is in common usage (and I want to include the Riverside Freeway/91 and San Diego's Cabrillo Freeway/163 in this category), but most others (San Gabriel River Freeway/605, Ronald Reagan Freeway/118, Santa Paula Freeway/126) generally are not. Some are well known names that do not receive much signage at all (Junipero Serra Freeway/280, Nimitz Freeway/880).
- Finally, unsigned route name which is well known to the public. In the Bay Area, that would be the Central Freeway, Eastshore Freeway, and San Francisco Skyway. In SoCal, the Artesia Freeway MIGHT fit that, Foothill Freeway/210 certainly does. I feel like the Montgomery Freeway name for old 101/current 5 from 94 to the border has been deprecated in common usage over time.
Quote from: DBR96A on October 22, 2013, 02:44:22 AM
Quote from: briantroutman on March 20, 2013, 08:20:01 PMAs a native of central Pennsylvania, I must say that I felt insulted the first time I returned east from Ohio and saw "New York" as the control city. As if there wasn't anything of importance between Youngstown and New York!
I thought it was kind of odd too. Personally, I'd use Sharon, State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the control cities in Pennsylvania.
If you want a real slap in the face, the control city on I-95 northbound in Baltimore is New York. Apparently Philadelphia doesn't exist.
Illinois uses a lot of small towns as control cities as well. I've seen Effingham, East St. Louis and Jacksonville used.
In Illinois, a lot of the control cities that seem too small but those are secondary control cities usually near a major junction or the border. If you look at the mileage signs, 90% of the time, the primary control city on the bottom would be a major city or metro over 200,000.
So for example, on I-57, the control cities at interstate junctions are just Chicago and Memphis. The secondary cities would be Kankakee (small city that has its own suburbs ~75000 city+suburbs), Champaign (I-72,74 jct), Effingham (I-70 jct), Mt Vernon (I-64), Cairo (last IL city before Mississppi River).
is there any freeway that's named after someone in common use in CA? no one calls 94 the MLK freeway down here - it's just the 94.
is the Nimitz referred to by name up in the bay area?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 22, 2013, 07:11:14 PM
is there any freeway that's named after someone in common use in CA? no one calls 94 the MLK freeway down here - it's just the 94.
is the Nimitz referred to by name up in the bay area?
The Nimitz name is pretty well known, as is the MacArthur. The latter existed as street names for what was US 50 for about a decade before that freeway was built, while the Nimitz name was given to then-Route 17 in 1958, long before numbers started taking precedence.
I do wonder when the interchange east of the Bay Bridge became the "MacArthur Maze" in common usage though - it existed in the 1930s, years before MacArthur Boulevard was given its name.
Hey everyone, this isn't the thread about freeway names! :pan:
:sombrero:
Quote from: getemngo on October 22, 2013, 03:41:51 PM
Quote from: DBR96A on October 22, 2013, 02:44:22 AM
Quote from: briantroutman on March 20, 2013, 08:20:01 PMAs a native of central Pennsylvania, I must say that I felt insulted the first time I returned east from Ohio and saw "New York" as the control city. As if there wasn't anything of importance between Youngstown and New York!
I thought it was kind of odd too. Personally, I'd use Sharon, State College, Hazleton and Stroudsburg as the control cities in Pennsylvania.
Is it only Ohio that does this and not Pennsylvania? AASHTO's book with the list of approved control cities is $30, so screw that, but a 2004 list (http://home.roadrunner.com/~pwolf/controlcities.html) says Sharon, Clarion, Du Bois, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Williamsport, Bloomsburg, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, and Delaware Water Gap should be there. It's been many years since I've driven I-80 in Pennsylvania, but do I remember seeing Clarion, Williamsport, Bloomsburg, Hazleton, and Del Water Gap on pull-thrus. The m.t.r. FAQ (http://www.roadfan.com/mtrfaq.html#a342) also lists Delaware Water Gap as a control city.
The only BGS mention of Ohio on I-80 West in PA is Youngstown -- and that is at the PA-18/I-376 Interchange, the last exit before Ohio.
So if I-80 snubs Ohio in PA, then why can't Ohio snub Pennsylvania (and also take a swipe at the Garden State just because it's fun to do so)??? ;-)
Quote from: hbelkins on July 09, 2012, 01:02:02 PM
Several of the ones in West Virginia, which are only small towns or regionally important cities, and not of national significance or where a lot of through traffic would be headed.
Examples: Lewisburg on I-64, Parkersburg and Clarksburg on I-77 and I-79.
Should be Lexington, VA (if not Richmond) on I-64, Cambridge, OH on I-77 (intersection with I-70) and Morgantown (intersection with I-68) on I-79.
Yeah, I've always thought that the Clarksburg one should at least be Morgantown, if not just Pittsburgh. I don't know if I'd agree with using Cambridge as far as nationally relevant goes, even if it is where 77 crosses 70. IMO, if you're going to mention something that far into Ohio on signage starting in Charleston, might as well make it something recognizable like Canton (maybe even Akron or Cleveland)
One I find interesting is "Delaware" being used for US 23 south instead of Columbus (at least at the OH 4 interchange.) Maybe it's subtle warning that Delaware is all the further you're going to make it before the barrage of annoying traffic lights takes over.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 22, 2013, 07:11:14 PM
is there any freeway that's named after someone in common use in CA?
This dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didacus_of_Alcal%C3%A1
Quote from: NE2 on October 23, 2013, 12:51:39 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 22, 2013, 07:11:14 PM
is there any freeway that's named after someone in common use in CA?
This dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didacus_of_Alcal%C3%A1
I like that - here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomona) another one.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on October 22, 2013, 05:51:30 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on October 22, 2013, 04:22:50 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on October 22, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
Agreed. Maybe even make Alhambra the control city north of the 5.
I would even say "TO 60/10 EAST" might be a better control city than Alhambra, and SHOULD be there in the first place - I don't recall any signage on the Santa Ana Freeway northbound guiding to 60 east from my drive there Sunday night. (And certainly using that to bypass the East Los Angeles Interchange is never a bad idea.)
That would work too. I bypass the East LA Interchange quite often using the 710 to the 10.
I have seen old maps from the 1950's showing the Long Beach Parkway extending only south from the Santa Ana parkway towards the Long Beach area. In the 1960's, the northern extension was built towards Valley Blvd.
The 5/710 interchange is interesting. Unlike most CA freeway interchanges, there is a left exit from 710 north to 5 north, 710 south to 5 south, and 5 north to 710 north. These are all vestiges of the original configuration where the Long Beach Parkway ended at the Santa Ana Parkway in a Y interchange. Until the segment north of I-5 was built, all of the Long Beach Parkway traffic landed on the left side of the Santa Ana Parkway headed towards Downtown LA.
Given that, I'm sure that until the northern extension was built, the control cities would indicate Los Angeles. However, I've never seen a picture of old CA-7 or old CA-15 with an L.A. control city.
Of course, once the northern extension got planned, Caltrans expected the freeway to reach Pasadena and re-signed all the control cities accordingly. The control cities north of I-5 got re-signed to Valley Blvd. (1970's) once it became clear that the project would be stalled due to litigation.
So, at this time, I agree that I-710 north should have a Los Angeles control city south of the I-5 and an Alhambra control city north of I-5. I don't expect this freeway will ever reach Pasadena.
CA-15/I-15 (Escondido Freeway) northbound in San Diego County has Riverside as the control city. That control city doesn't disappear until it enters Riverside County & connects with I-215 (formerly I-15E), which does serve the city of Riverside.
Wouldn't it be better to have Escondido as the control city? Maybe after Escondido it could change to Riverside or maybe Temecula, since that city has grown in recent years. Escondido is one the most important cities in north San Diego County.
Interstate 5 should keep San Diego until reaching Downtown SD, then change to Oceanside & Los Angeles, with LA being the main one. In Oceanside it can change to Santa Ana & Los Angeles.
Princeton on US 202/206 SB in Bedminster, NJ has "Princeton" as a control point at the I-287 SB ramp. It is odd cause I-287 does not go there and the Exit 17 ramp sign had Princeton removed for it when new signs went up during the 90s widening project.
It was placed there to let through motorists on US 206 know they can bypass Pluckemin and Bridgewater on I-287 many years ago. However, someone in DOT forgot that it was used there when assigning new control points at Exit 17 later on.
Now its odd for real considering that it is not followed up. Also New Brunswick was even used on a pull through sign at Exit 17 for a brief time back in the 80s and early 90s when I-287 goes no where near New Brunswick. Now it has been replaced with Perth Amboy in which I-287 does not go to directly, but at least its continuing freeway (NJ 440) goes there.
Also, Ewing on all I-295 NB mileage signs is odd considering that Trenton is not at all used. Trenton is the biggest city along I-295 in NJ and even used on some ramp signs to I-295 NB as well. Ewing is a suburb of Trenton and is not at all on I-295 either.
I-70 EB at the US 40/61(64) interchange in Wentzville used to have Lambert Airport as the control city going EB. 64 used to have Forest Park as a control city.
Quote from: codyg1985 on July 16, 2012, 06:14:36 PM
I have several in the southeast:
- I-24 West control city from Nashville is Clarksville. IMO, it should be St. Louis. I believe at one time it used to be.
I think Clarksville is the appropriate control city for 24 from Nashville. The population is now over 100K, and it sits on 24. IMO, the control cities north of Nashville should be Clarksville, Paducah and Marion. While 24 points toward St. Louis, it ends over 100 miles to the SE and you have to take 2 additional interstates to reach it. Chicago would make more sense as 57 at least goes there.
Kentucky uses Nashville-Paducah and then St. Louis for I-24. No mention of Clarksville. Illinois, on the other hand, uses Nashville and lists Paducah as an auxiliary destination.