AARoads Forum

The discussion in https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7375.0 got me thinking about whether I'd be willing to make a trip like that into Mexico or other places.  What are your experiences driving in places where you do not speak the local language? 

My own international driving experiences are limited to Canada, Germany, and Austria.  In Quebec, I know enough French from high school to be able to read it pretty well so I almost always knew what the signs said.  If I needed anything, I was confident that there would always be someone willing to speak English at restaurants, hotels, etc.  In Germany and Austria, there was no problem at all with signs, since most important signage used international symbols, place names, or numbers.  And I was pleasantly surprised that I never had trouble communicating in English for whatever I needed.  I think there are many parts of the U.S. where I would have more trouble finding someone to speak English (US41 last month in Miami comes to mind).

I think that between my outdated French and having seen many bilingual English/Spanish packages, signs, etc, I could at least get the gist of the important signs in Spanish.  But there's no way I could carry on a meaningful conversation in Spanish.  I suppose all of that scares me less than the drug wars and the corruption we often hear about for travel to Mexico.

How about other parts of Europe, especially eastern Europe?  How difficult is it to figure out signs and to otherwise communicate in, say, Poland, if all you speak is English?

Then there are places that speak languages with different character sets, where I'd have no chance unless signs are bilingual.  I'd probably want to travel with a native in those kinds of places.

Most of Eastern Europe uses the international symbols - Ireland is the only European country I can think of that uses different signage.

The only other countries in which I've driven are Mexico, Canada, and the UK. No problems at all in any of them regardless of language. I don't speak French, but the French-only signs in Quebec were generally clear enough; when I didn't necessarily understand a message usually I'd know what one of the words meant and I'd be able to figure out the others from that.

I did not do any driving in Russia–rode buses everywhere–and I'm glad I didn't. While they used a lot of symbols, there were enough signs in the Cyrillic alphabet that I'd have been worried about messing up, and the traffic was HORRIBLE anyway. There are some signs that are obvious as to meaning because you recognize a symbol. McDonald's and Baskin-Robbins are the two examples that pop readily to mind (not that those are road-related, of course). I also just happen to know that "PECTOPAH" means "restaurant." But the Cyrillic alphabet makes the signs just absolutely ALIEN and you can't even sound out what they say because you have no idea what most of the characters are.

Here's a Street View link to a spot I remember on Moskovsky Prospekt in St. Petersburg. (http://goo.gl/maps/WYwYA) The white sign up ahead on the left (above the station wagon) is not as clear in the picture I took. I now know that Стоп transliterates as "STOP." But when I saw that sign from the bus I found myself wondering what in the world it was and at whom it was directed. I think it's a message for the tram operators who use the tracks in the median telling them to stop because of the pedestrian crossing.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 03, 2012, 06:18:46 PMI did not do any driving in Russia–rode buses everywhere–and I'm glad I didn't. While they used a lot of symbols, there were enough signs in the Cyrillic alphabet that I'd have been worried about messing up, and the traffic was HORRIBLE anyway. There are some signs that are obvious as to meaning because you recognize a symbol. McDonald's and Baskin-Robbins are the two examples that pop readily to mind (not that those are road-related, of course). I also just happen to know that "PECTOPAH" means "restaurant." But the Cyrillic alphabet makes the signs just absolutely ALIEN and you can't even sound out what they say because you have no idea what most of the characters are.

If you read the Russian traffic manual before you go (GOST something or other--make sure you get hold of the late-1970's version, not the one that came out after the Soviet Union collapsed), I'd think you would have a fighting chance of coping with Russian traffic signs.  I'd be more worried about places like Georgia, which has a completely different script, or Kazakhstan, where the local alphabet is essentially an extension of Cyrillic with additional characters.

Years ago a friend and I went to Turkey, travelling mostly by coach, and we didn't have any difficulty with the signs since the Turks have a transparent color-coding system and are generally quite good about limiting themselves to Vienna convention signs.  We didn't pretend, however, that we understood every single sign.  Turkish is almost its own language family, and though loanwords from European languages (mainly French, but with some English) are used, they don't appear on traffic signs often enough to function as glosses.  It helped to learn some basic Turkish vocabulary and grammar:  yol = road, nüfüs = soul (or "person" within the context of town boundary signs which give the population), cami = mosque, and the convention that a compatible vowel is added to a noun when another noun (not an adjective) is used as a modifier (so, "Yeni cami" = new mosque but "Sultanahmet Camii" = Sultanahmet Mosque; also "Eski yol" = old road but "Divanyolu" = Imperial Council Road), etc.  (Turkish signing is not altogether free of jargon since the Turks don't genericize some destination labels as much as they should:  for example, "Emniyet müdürlügü," which translates literally as "Security directorate," is essentially a police station.)

I've driven in Western/Eastern Europe, Japan, Quebec, Mexico, and Australia (which doesnt count). Japan was very difficult, especially in construction zones. They have a lot of weird little icons that dont appear to make sense like people sleeping or a mermaid or etc... it made Europe extremely easy by comparison because the signs are all more of less uniform across much of the continent.

My experience with Mexico is that the signage is poor, and important signs can be figured out without difficulty. The word only signs were largely irrelevant messages like "obey all signs" and stuff like that.

I've also driven multiple times in various Caribbean countries where the solution to the signage problem was to just not use any. It seemed to work OK for them.

Think about it. Here in the US, how many critical word signs are there? Other countries are no worse and are often better.

And for what it's worth, you'll have no problem using English anywhere in Miami. It may not be their native language, but everyone (under the age of 50) knows enough English to get by.

I've only really driven in Quebec, and that was totally fine even though I don't know a lick of French. I was able to get into and back out of downtown Montreal at about 12:30 AM (our plan had been as 18 year olds to stop in Montreal and get drunk, but we ended up getting there a bit too late to do anything) despite having never been there before and having little/no knowledge of the freeway system/layout of the city at the time and no map (knew that we needed to take 20 to 55 to get to Vermont and that's it).

It's pretty straightforward- as soon as we entered Quebec I made an effort to decode directions, and then I was a bit disoriented when we got into Dorion thinking I had missed a turn and accidentally got off the autoroute, but that probably would have happened in the US if I didn't know where I was going (I probably would have taken 540 to 40 if I had a map). But I figured out to get onto 720 by the Centre-Ville signs, assuming that probably meant "downtown," and that worked pretty well. It took a bit to figure out how to get back on the freeway, but we did eventually.

Given that I'd never been to that city before and was unfamiliar with the general layout of the freeway system  and it was late at night, I don't know that I would have fared any better if signage were in English. 

My Spanish is good enough that I'd be comfortable driving in Mexico alone from that standpoint (safety, on the other hand..)- I work at a hotel in Tucson at the front desk and routinely have to give directions to Mexican nationals up here on shopping trips to various Tucson destinations in Spanish and several times have checked people in and out in Spanish, so my Spanish comprehension is pretty good, provided the person I'm talking to speaks slowly.  I'm by no means fluent though- my comprehension is better than my ability to speak so what often happens is a guest speaks Spanish and I'll respond in English, them knowing enough English to understand and me knowing enough Spanish to understand.

I've driven in Quebec and Puerto Rico.  I remembered enough from four years of high school Spanish to catch on to the road signs in Puerto Rico, even though they aren't really bilingual.  I know even less French, but in Quebec it was fairly easy to figure things out in context (for example, I don't have burned into my brain what "voie" means, but a "1 voie" sign under a symbol for a narrow bridge obviously means "one lane"). 

The First Nations-language signs (with their own alphabets) here and there in Canada would've thrown me, except that they generally were in standard shapes like the familiar red "stop" octagon, so it didn't matter that I couldn't even read the alphabet.

France is the only country I've driven where language was an issue and that was at a tollbooth. Luckily, the tollbooth operator and I both spoke enough German to agree the toll was 16 francs.

I've never encountered any real problems on my road trips through Europe. Tolls are automated, they show you how much you have to pay and you pay. I always pay by credit card at unmanned booths because it's faster anyway. If you don't want to "talk with hands and feet" like apes, you need to learn some numbers to indicate which pump you used at the gas station. In the Czech Republic and Slovenia I used English and all attendants understood what I meant. I'd say speaking English is more of a problem in southern Europe than eastern Europe nowadays as long as you don't have some 40+ year old dude to deal with.

Sometimes when I'm France at a hotel or campsite, I ask "parlez-vous l'Anglais?" and they respond "un peu" which usually means they know 3 words and nothing more. I blame the dubbed programs on TV for that, most people don't have a clue how to pronounce English. Once I ordered an ice cream in Italy, and they didn't understand the word "magnum" (which is a universal brand in all of Europe). But, they said "ahhh, mainum!" which is about how you pronounce it phonetically in Italian.

^^^
Automated kiosks like toll booths are often unusable by us Americans with our antiquated swipe credit cards. They all seem to be chip-and-pin only.

They indeed appear to be for the chip-type credit cards. However, I have never had to enter my PIN at a toll booth. Gas stations and other locations usually require a PIN code though.

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 03, 2012, 06:50:30 PM
We didn't pretend, however, that we understood every single sign.  Turkish is almost its own language family, and though loanwords from European languages (mainly French, but with some English) are used, they don't appear on traffic signs often enough to function as glosses. 

I have driven a lot in Finland, and I don't speak much Finnish.

Finland is officially a bilingual nation (Swedish the official "second" language), but bilingual signs are only posted in municipalities where the percentage of Swedish speakers exceeds a certain threshold, which is along the south coast and parts of the west coast.  In the island province of Ã...land signs are posted in Swedish only, since almost none of the population speaks Finnish. 

Many Swedish words will be recognized by English speakers, which helps.

The Finnish language is not related to Swedish or any other Indo-European tongue.  It is a member of the Finno-Ugric family, and is closely-related to Estonian, and more-distantly related to Hungarian.  Fortunately, Finnish uses the Latin character set.

So in most of Finland, highway signs are in Finnish only.  But Finland does use the "usual" international European signage, so it's not so hard to navigate, and the signs are clear and generally well-maintained.

And most of the Finnish population under age of 65 or 70 is likely to speak English (and in many cases, excellent English).

Quote from: Chris on August 04, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
They indeed appear to be for the chip-type credit cards. However, I have never had to enter my PIN at a toll booth. Gas stations and other locations usually require a PIN code though.

They're supposed to be able to accept an American card if you go inside to pay, rather than trying to use the pay-at-the-pump thing. I've never had a problem using an American credit card in Europe (including Estonia and Russia) other than at the pay-at-the-pump thing.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 04, 2012, 11:39:18 AMFinland is officially a bilingual nation (Swedish the official "second" language), but bilingual signs are only posted in municipalities where the percentage of Swedish speakers exceeds a certain threshold, which is along the south coast and parts of the west coast.  In the island province of Ã...land signs are posted in Swedish only, since almost none of the population speaks Finnish.

As I recall (from material which the Finnish transport ministry supplied to the Bowen committee in 1972, which was considering bilingual signs for Wales), there are four scenarios in terms of signing in Finland:

*  Predominately Finnish (Swedish minority below a certain threshold)--Finnish only

*  Mixed Finnish-Swedish (Finnish majority)--bilingual signs, Finnish first

*  Mixed Finnish-Swedish (Swedish majority)--bilingual signs, Swedish first

*  Predominately Swedish (Finnish minority below a certain threshold)--Swedish only

This system was partly transposed to Wales, which is bilingual throughout but is divided into English-priority areas where English legend appears first on signs (mainly in southern Wales) and Welsh-priority areas where Welsh legend appears first (mainly in northern Wales).  For purposes of fixing language order on signs, it is assumed that each bilingual name pair is read from top to bottom, not inside-out.

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 04, 2012, 01:10:48 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 04, 2012, 11:39:18 AMFinland is officially a bilingual nation (Swedish the official "second" language), but bilingual signs are only posted in municipalities where the percentage of Swedish speakers exceeds a certain threshold, which is along the south coast and parts of the west coast.  In the island province of Ã...land signs are posted in Swedish only, since almost none of the population speaks Finnish.

As I recall (from material which the Finnish transport ministry supplied to the Bowen committee in 1972, which was considering bilingual signs for Wales), there are four scenarios in terms of signing in Finland:

*  Predominately Finnish (Swedish minority below a certain threshold)--Finnish only

*  Mixed Finnish-Swedish (Finnish majority)--bilingual signs, Finnish first

*  Mixed Finnish-Swedish (Swedish majority)--bilingual signs, Swedish first

*  Predominately Swedish (Finnish minority below a certain threshold)--Swedish only

The information they gave you is correct.  Helsinki has, of course, a Swedish-speaking minority, and even in the transit vehicles there (bus, trolley, regional rail and Metro), the signs are in both languages. 

As an aside (this would be good for AATransit :-) ), Helsinki is perfectly scaled for a trolley network.  It gets heavy use for a relatively small city, and the lines are relatively short, so it serves short trip lengths (longer trips are served by bus, regional rail and the Metro (only one Metro line, which  connects the eastern "suburbs" (within the corporate limits of the municipality of Helsinki) to the downtown area, though it is currently being extended to serve the western suburbs, which are outside the limits of Helsinki).

QuoteThis system was partly transposed to Wales, which is bilingual throughout but is divided into English-priority areas where English legend appears first on signs (mainly in southern Wales) and Welsh-priority areas where Welsh legend appears first (mainly in northern Wales).  For purposes of fixing language order on signs, it is assumed that each bilingual name pair is read from top to bottom, not inside-out.

Never been to Wales (the only part of the UK I have visited is England).   Are the Welsh as sensitive to being called "English" as people from Scotland are supposed to be?

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 12, 2012, 12:10:29 PMNever been to Wales (the only part of the UK I have visited is England).   Are the Welsh as sensitive to being called "English" as people from Scotland are supposed to be?

Yes, very much so, but non-English Britons tend to tolerate it more from foreigners who use "English" as a metonym for "British" than from native English speakers who grew up in the UK and therefore should be aware of the "one nation, four countries" aspect of British identity.

It is in talking about Ireland that things get really strange.  The island of Ireland contains the entirety of the Irish Republic, a sovereign country, and Northern Ireland, which is formally part of the United Kingdom but whose status in relation to the other three countries actually has more in common with the dominion status Canada used to have.  Pretty much everything is separate in Northern Ireland with the exception of foreign affairs and national defense--NI, for example, has its own road traffic law (including traffic signs regulations), its own driver and vehicle licensing agency, etc.  I am American, and I have visited NI, but the vast majority of Britons (close to 90% of the British population actually lives in England) have not.

As a foreigner living in southern England, I encountered a number of Irish who described themselves unabashedly as coming from the Republic, and others who identified themselves just as "Irish" without offering any further glosses.  When I got to know one person in the latter group a bit better, I realized he was actually a middle-class Protestant from Northern Ireland.  I think people from that demographic group who go to England for university tend to identify themselves as Northern Irish when they want to make it clear that they are British, and just "Irish" when they don't want to get into the whole north-versus-south thing.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 04, 2012, 12:14:24 PM

Quote from: Chris on August 04, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
They indeed appear to be for the chip-type credit cards. However, I have never had to enter my PIN at a toll booth. Gas stations and other locations usually require a PIN code though.

They're supposed to be able to accept an American card if you go inside to pay, rather than trying to use the pay-at-the-pump thing. I've never had a problem using an American credit card in Europe (including Estonia and Russia) other than at the pay-at-the-pump thing.

I have the same problem using my card at some American pumps which ask for your zip code. I have no option but to pay inside. It's about time credit cards were standardized throughout the world.

Quote from: Truvelo on August 12, 2012, 03:27:21 PM
I have the same problem using my card at some American pumps which ask for your zip code. I have no option but to pay inside. It's about time credit cards were standardized throughout the world.

Supposedly, sometimes it works for foreign cards if you type in "00000".

My French is only from Junior year in high school, about 24 years ago, but right after I graduated, we went to Quebec.  I kept asking "parlez-vous Anglais" and praying they would say yes.  Most did.

More recently, I went to New Brunswick, where most of the signs are in English and French, but when I went to Miscou Island at the northeastern tip, it was practically all French.  Thanks to the restaurant for having an English speaker on hand, or I would have been completely lost.

I've found New Brunswick to be the most Bi-lingual of the provinces. Especially in Moncton, (pop 140,000).......go into a lot of stores and you'll hear a clerk switching effortlessly between English and French.

The French population in New Brunswick is mostly of Acadian descent (think Louisiana "Cajun" ) not Quebecois. 

Quote from: Duke87 on August 12, 2012, 04:44:08 PM

Quote from: Truvelo on August 12, 2012, 03:27:21 PM
I have the same problem using my card at some American pumps which ask for your zip code. I have no option but to pay inside. It's about time credit cards were standardized throughout the world.

Supposedly, sometimes it works for foreign cards if you type in "00000".

I have yet to find a pump that will accept that. I try it every time.

Sometimes I look at GSV imagery in Europe and can understand most of the signs, but there are a few generic danger signs ( /!\ ) with text plaques under them that I was completely unable to understand in some countries (notably the Netherlands).

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 03, 2012, 06:50:30 PM

If you read the Russian traffic manual before you go (GOST something or other--make sure you get hold of the late-1970's version, not the one that came out after the Soviet Union collapsed)

as a clarification - GOST is Russia's equivalent of ANSI: a standards organization.  Just asking for a "GOST" will not lead you any closer in understanding to "I would like a traffic manual". 

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 13, 2012, 05:06:57 PMas a clarification - GOST is Russia's equivalent of ANSI: a standards organization.  Just asking for a "GOST" will not lead you any closer in understanding to "I would like a traffic manual".

Yup, I was being lazy.  In order to access the manual directly you actually need the GOST standard number, which I could not remember off the top of my head, hence "something or other."  And actually there are separate standards numbers for the various editions because GOST apparently does not recycle standard numbers for new editions.  The standards are as follows:

*  GOST 10807-78 (1978 edition)

*  GOST 23457-86 (1986 edition)

*  GOST 52290-2004 (2004 edition)

The 2004 edition can be downloaded here (not sure how official this version is):

http://avtogid4you.narod2.ru/zakon/GOST_52290-2004.pdf

I have the 1978 edition as well, but I am not sure if I have the 1986 one.  Sometimes it is possible to find scanned copies of the older standards on the Web for free, but availability tends to come and go and official standing of these copies is uncertain.

Soviet signs are like Soviet tech:  very simple.  Aside from a few fork diagrammatics, the 1978 manual has just chevron-ended signs and arrow signs which are comparable to our D-series conventional-road guide signs.  However, with the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Russians have been building more actual freeways, so the 2004 edition has different types of diagrammatics which are supposed to be used at various kinds of grade-separated interchanges (including some cloverleaf diagrammatics of the kind not allowed in the US since the 1978 edition of MUTCD).

It is possible to find designs for signs done to the GOST standards which are pattern-accurate.  Moldova has them, for example (using the Latin alphabet since the official language is Romanian--actually described as "Moldovan," but since it looks like Romanian to me, that is the story I am sticking with):

http://www.asd.md/ENG/tenderdoc_contract-eng.htm

Edit:  Found a HTML version of the 1978 edition:

http://www.6pl.ru/gost/G10807-78.htm

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on August 13, 2012, 04:29:31 PM
Sometimes I look at GSV imagery in Europe and can understand most of the signs, but there are a few generic danger signs ( /!\ ) with text plaques under them that I was completely unable to understand in some countries (notably the Netherlands).

The Netherlands excels in putting numerous subsigns below regular signs to have sitautions legally watertight. It's usually "except for" or "except when" or something similar. No foreigner understands them and sometimes it's too much to get while driving even for a native Dutch.

Quote from: Truvelo on August 12, 2012, 03:27:21 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 04, 2012, 12:14:24 PM

Quote from: Chris on August 04, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
They indeed appear to be for the chip-type credit cards. However, I have never had to enter my PIN at a toll booth. Gas stations and other locations usually require a PIN code though.

They're supposed to be able to accept an American card if you go inside to pay, rather than trying to use the pay-at-the-pump thing. I've never had a problem using an American credit card in Europe (including Estonia and Russia) other than at the pay-at-the-pump thing.

I have the same problem using my card at some American pumps which ask for your zip code. I have no option but to pay inside. It's about time credit cards were standardized throughout the world.

US banks have started slowly rolling out chip cards (chip-and-signature, not chip-and-pin). Wal-Mart in particular has been pushing heavily for it, and they recently went and installed chip readers on all of the registers in the central Florida area. I wish it was chip-and-pin like the rest of the world, but it's at least moving in the right direction.

I think the chip cards are a stopgap measure. I wouldn't be surprised if everything is NFC in the next five years.

Quote from: realjd on August 16, 2012, 08:53:42 AMI wouldn't be surprised if everything is NFC in the next five years.

where do we have NFC currently? 

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 16, 2012, 11:46:57 AM

Quote from: realjd on August 16, 2012, 08:53:42 AMI wouldn't be surprised if everything is NFC in the next five years.

where do we have NFC currently? 

Any credit card terminal capable of contactless payments (very common around here at major chain stores) can also support NFC payments from a smartphone. A handful of newer Android phones support NFC payments via Google Wallet, which works at any contactless credit card terminal that supports Mastercard PayPass. It's not well used at this point, but the technology does exist and is available.

The problem I have with using my phone to pay for things is that then I have to start securing my phone like I secure my wallet. No letting someone borrow it to make a call. No leaving it on my desk at work charging while I run to the men's room. No whipping it out on the street in public. And then it starts hampering my ability to use it as a phone.

Besides, then what happens when my phone breaks, has the battery die, or experiences some other situation that renders it unusable? A dedicated card is both more reliable and more secure. And not any less convenient, so where is the benefit to the whole Google Wallet thing?

It's another example of technology for the sake of technology, something which we seem to be seeing an awful lot of these days. It is in no way superior to existing methods, but it's modern and snazzy, so it exists purely to be fashionable.

Quote from: Duke87 on August 17, 2012, 09:23:34 PM
The problem I have with using my phone to pay for things is that then I have to start securing my phone like I secure my wallet. No letting someone borrow it to make a call. No leaving it on my desk at work charging while I run to the men's room. No whipping it out on the street in public. And then it starts hampering my ability to use it as a phone.

Besides, then what happens when my phone breaks, has the battery die, or experiences some other situation that renders it unusable? A dedicated card is both more reliable and more secure. And not any less convenient, so where is the benefit to the whole Google Wallet thing?

It's another example of technology for the sake of technology, something which we seem to be seeing an awful lot of these days. It is in no way superior to existing methods, but it's modern and snazzy, so it exists purely to be fashionable.

My understanding is that NFC transactions require a PIN just like a chip card transaction in the rest of the world. This is more secure than our current signature-based authentication system. Apple's recent purchase of AuthenTec strongly suggest that they'll accept fingerprints as an authenticator for NFC transactions. Again, this is much more secure than the current American system.

Is it better, more convenient, or more secure than the chip-and-pin cards? Maybe, maybe not. But I stand by my prediction that it will be the most common payment method within five years.

I'm not so sure I like the NFC idea.  Sounds like it would be too easy to steal a number, IMHO.  As for chips, we had them when I was in college for copy machines and the student cafe.  They seemed to get scratched easier than the magnetic strips, and put out of commission easier.  We could always use a plastic bag to make the strips work in the machine.  A scratched chip is done.

Yeah, all you need is an RFID reader and to be within 8 feet of someone with a PayPass card.  Plus, I believe PayPass is signature-based just like everything else; the touted "security" is that you don't hand the card to a store clerk, which could also be solved by having everyone use customer-facing swipe machines that are used in supermarkets and the mall.

Quote from: Chris on August 14, 2012, 09:01:37 AM

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on August 13, 2012, 04:29:31 PM
Sometimes I look at GSV imagery in Europe and can understand most of the signs, but there are a few generic danger signs ( /!\ ) with text plaques under them that I was completely unable to understand in some countries (notably the Netherlands).

The Netherlands excels in putting numerous subsigns below regular signs to have sitautions legally watertight. It's usually "except for" or "except when" or something similar. No foreigner understands them and sometimes it's too much to get while driving even for a native Dutch.

I've been looking at a lot of GSV images in Europe recently, and I saw a recurring sign like this in the Netherlands with the general European "No passing(or overtaking)" sign with a sign below it of a tractor with the words "inhalen toegestaan"(which as Google's Dutch translation says means "overtaking allowed"). Without knowing what the words meant before I ran it through the translation, I pretty much guessed at the general idea of what it meant.
I find it fun to try and figure out what signs mean(road signs and advertising signs) before I run them through a translation. I know Spanish pretty well, which gives me a limited knowledge of French, Italian and Portuguese and there are sometimes enough German or Dutch words that are cognates of English words that I can figure out the gist of something.

Quote from: huskeroadgeek on August 19, 2012, 10:14:18 PM

Quote from: Chris on August 14, 2012, 09:01:37 AM

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on August 13, 2012, 04:29:31 PM
Sometimes I look at GSV imagery in Europe and can understand most of the signs, but there are a few generic danger signs ( /!\ ) with text plaques under them that I was completely unable to understand in some countries (notably the Netherlands).

The Netherlands excels in putting numerous subsigns below regular signs to have sitautions legally watertight. It's usually "except for" or "except when" or something similar. No foreigner understands them and sometimes it's too much to get while driving even for a native Dutch.

I've been looking at a lot of GSV images in Europe recently, and I saw a recurring sign like this in the Netherlands with the general European "No passing(or overtaking)" sign with a sign below it of a tractor with the words "inhalen toegestaan"(which as Google's Dutch translation says means "overtaking allowed"). Without knowing what the words meant before I ran it through the translation, I pretty much guessed at the general idea of what it meant.
I find it fun to try and figure out what signs mean(road signs and advertising signs) before I run them through a translation. I know Spanish pretty well, which gives me a limited knowledge of French, Italian and Portuguese and there are sometimes enough German or Dutch words that are cognates of English words that I can figure out the gist of something.

For those that have not seen the "no passing" signs, here are two examples.

Swedish "No Passing" sign:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transportstyrelsen.se%2FVagmarken%2FForbudsmarken%2FC27%2FC27-1%2Fladdahem%2FC27-1.png&hash=e821a0d42955eb0273e17b7560c05f5aaafc72e1)

Swedish "Trucks No Passing" sign:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transportstyrelsen.se%2FVagmarken%2FForbudsmarken%2FC29%2FC29-1%2Fladdahem%2FC29-1.png&hash=ed4799124e9ad6bbc7218270e3e10bf839dcf386)

Only half-knowing a language can make signs fun!

México has signs that say "NO TIRE BASURA".
My wife guessed at it:  "No tire trash"?

Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2012, 10:25:50 AM
Only half-knowing a language can make signs fun!

....

As can not speaking the language at all and sounding out the signs, such as this one we saw in Stockholm (it advises you not to park in front of the door because it is an exit used throughout the day):

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2Fd6d98219.jpg&hash=7fb092c318dd7f2c50d08817950cd6ce8bcb5f86)

Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2012, 10:25:50 AMOnly half-knowing a language can make signs fun!

México has signs that say "NO TIRE BASURA".

My wife guessed at it:  "No tire trash"?

"TIRAR BASURA ES FALTA DE CULTURA"--to throw trash is a fault of culture?  "UN MUNICIPIO LIMPIO Y SANO"--a municipality clean and sane?

False cognates can be fun too.

I thought that said "If you fart, there's hell to pay!" :D

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 20, 2012, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2012, 10:25:50 AM
Only half-knowing a language can make signs fun!

....

As can not speaking the language at all and sounding out the signs, such as this one we saw in Stockholm (it advises you not to park in front of the door because it is an exit used throughout the day):

Not just all day, but at all hours, day and night.

On the same theme, there's this sign, which is common in urbanized areas of Sweden (even though this image appears to have been taken in a rural area):

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Literal translation is "speed hinderance" (yes, "fart" translates to speed, as well as "motion"), but correct translation to English is, of course, "speed bump(s)."

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on August 20, 2012, 11:32:23 PM
I thought that said "If you fart, there's hell to pay!" :D

No, fart in Swedish means motion or speed (depending on context). 

Fartsyndare literally means "speed sinner," but translates to "speed limit violator."

It can get expensive, too.

These fines are for motorway and rural arterial highway speed limit violations (in residential and urban areas, with a posted limit of 50 k/h or 30 k/h), the fines are higher:

• 1 to 10 km over the limit is SEK 1,000 (about U.S. $150)
• 21 to 25 km over the limit is SEK 2,800 (U.S. $420)
• 31 to 35 km over the limit is SEK 4,000 (U.S. $540)

Conviction for speeding over 21 k/h over the posted limit (in 30 k/h areas) is can result in a suspension of driving privileges for at least two months.

Conviction for speeding over 31 k/h elsewhere can also result in suspension of privileges for two months (and the suspension period gets higher depending on the difference between observed speed by the police and the posted limit).

Some European countries levy fines as a percentage of an individual's income rather than as a flat rate, which gives you stories like this (http://www.worldcarfans.com/110010823873/swiss-millionaire-gets-290000-speeding-ticket---sets-new-record).

A great idea in theory, though given the motivating factors of speed traps, what it would end up meaning if implemented here is that if you drive an expensive car, expect to get pulled over a lot.

Quote from: Duke87 on August 22, 2012, 09:25:41 PM
Some European countries levy fines as a percentage of an individual's income rather than as a flat rate, which gives you stories like this (http://www.worldcarfans.com/110010823873/swiss-millionaire-gets-290000-speeding-ticket---sets-new-record).

Finland has long imposed a system of "day fines" on many traffic violations - "day" being one day of pay (based on your tax return from the previous year).   No, they don't use that schedule of fines if you are resident in a country other than Finland.

Quote from: Duke87 on August 22, 2012, 09:25:41 PM
A great idea in theory, though given the motivating factors of speed traps, what it would end up meaning if implemented here is that if you drive an expensive car, expect to get pulled over a lot.

In Finland it is (generally) a non-issue.  Corruption in any government entity is extremely unusual (though someone did go to jail as a result of massive construction cost overruns for the Metrorail system in Helsingfors (Helsinki)).

"getting pulled over" is something that doesn't exist in Europe to an extent as it does in the U.S. The bulk of the fines are collected by speed cameras, rather than by police patrols.

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 20, 2012, 11:20:09 AM
"TIRAR BASURA ES FALTA DE CULTURA"--to throw trash is a fault of culture?  "UN MUNICIPIO LIMPIO Y SANO"--a municipality clean and sane?

False cognates can be fun too.

those are cognates whose mistranslation is not catastrophic.  "fault of culture" generally gets the meaning across that littering is asshole behavior.

try "embarazada".  you'll never guess what it means.  no, not that.  not that either.  not anything close to that.

Tengo 30 anos. :sombrero:

Quote from: NE2 on August 23, 2012, 01:15:57 PM
Tengo 30 anos. :sombrero:

that's not a cognate, as much as it is a missing tilde.

congratulations, btw, on your copious quantity of asses. 

may I borrow an ass?

Exactly. But I wouldn't call them false friends; I love them all.

Quote from: NE2 on August 23, 2012, 01:33:28 PM
Exactly. But I wouldn't call them false friends; I love them all.

Pero ¿tienes hombre?

Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2012, 01:57:58 PM

Quote from: NE2 on August 23, 2012, 01:33:28 PM
Exactly. But I wouldn't call them false friends; I love them all.

Pero ¿tienes hombre?

It really bugs me when somebody is trying to say "he's a tough hombre", but because they pronounce the o in hombre like an "ah" sound, they say what sounds like "he's a tough hambre". He's a tough hunger?
Dealing with the "anos" thing-I once had a Spanish teacher stop in the middle of a lesson and go over to the chalkboard just to put a tilde on an n when somebody had written "tengo 20 anos". You could tell who knew what it meant by who was laughing.

Gift has a very loaded meaning in German.

One thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is the fun of being stopped by the police or at a checkpoint when you don't speak the language.  I speak Spanish and, on our mission trips to México, we always make sure to have a Spanish-speaking person in the other vehicle too.  But has anyone had experience with this?

Quote from: Chris on August 23, 2012, 04:20:07 AM
"getting pulled over" is something that doesn't exist in Europe to an extent as it does in the U.S. The bulk of the fines are collected by speed cameras, rather than by police patrols.

I've seen plenty of police traffic stops in Finland and Sweden, though they have never stopped me.

The most-memorable one was about 10 or 12 years ago on Finland's E18/National Highway 1 motorway, where four or five police cars had a group of Harley-Davidson motorcycles stopped, the officers out of the cars with weapons drawn and the riders making intimate face-down contact with the pavement on the shoulder. 

Turned out that the Nordic chapters of Hell's Angels wanted to have some sort of summer "convention" in Finland, but  the Finnish authorities were decidedly unwelcoming, and many of the Hell's Angels were escorted back to the ferryboat terminals from which they came and sent back to Sweden, Germany or Estonia.

Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2012, 01:31:52 PM
One thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is the fun of being stopped by the police or at a checkpoint when you don't speak the language.  I speak Spanish and, on our mission trips to México, we always make sure to have a Spanish-speaking person in the other vehicle too.  But has anyone had experience with this?

Depending on the country and on whether you did anything illegal, it can help to, uh, "tip" the cop.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2012, 05:54:31 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2012, 01:31:52 PM
One thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is the fun of being stopped by the police or at a checkpoint when you don't speak the language.  I speak Spanish and, on our mission trips to México, we always make sure to have a Spanish-speaking person in the other vehicle too.  But has anyone had experience with this?

Depending on the country and on whether you did anything illegal, it can help to, uh, "tip" the cop.

In Finland, that will result in immediate arrest. 

I understand that a few Russian motorists have made the mistake of thinking that a cash "gift" to a uniformed law enforcement officer (on the Finnish side of the border) is a good idea.

It's not, and upon conviction, bribery of a public official can lead to a prison sentence of up to two years.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2012, 05:54:31 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2012, 01:31:52 PM
One thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is the fun of being stopped by the police or at a checkpoint when you don't speak the language.  I speak Spanish and, on our mission trips to México, we always make sure to have a Spanish-speaking person in the other vehicle too.  But has anyone had experience with this?

Depending on the country and on whether you did anything illegal, it can help to, uh, "tip" the cop.

That may or may not be true, depending on the culture.  Last year was the first time I've ever bribed a police officer; I was, in fact, speeding, but didn't want to waste time by taking my ticket clear into an unfamiliar city to pay it there.  Upon telling my story to the border official on my way back out of the country a week later, he asked if I'd gotten the officer's name.  First, I was the one who'd asked if it was possible to pay the officer directly (not the officer); secondly, I tend to get tunnel vision in a stressful situation.  I assume the official asked the question because he would have reported the officer.  But that's as may be.

More to the point, I imagine the situation would have been more difficult if I hadn't spoken Spanish.  There was a lot of hemming and hawing back and forth before we reached the point of actually handing cash through the driver's window.  I imagine that (at least with most officers) just pushing a wad of cash out without any conversation to lead up to the act would likely not be well received.

Again, has anyone experienced a police stop or checkpoint without the ability to communicate verbally?

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 24, 2012, 08:16:32 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2012, 05:54:31 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2012, 01:31:52 PM
One thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is the fun of being stopped by the police or at a checkpoint when you don't speak the language.  I speak Spanish and, on our mission trips to México, we always make sure to have a Spanish-speaking person in the other vehicle too.  But has anyone had experience with this?

Depending on the country and on whether you did anything illegal, it can help to, uh, "tip" the cop.

In Finland, that will result in immediate arrest. 

I understand that a few Russian motorists have made the mistake of thinking that a cash "gift" to a uniformed law enforcement officer (on the Finnish side of the border) is a good idea.

It's not, and upon conviction, bribery of a public official can lead to a prison sentence of up to two years.

Yes, you will notice I was very careful to hedge my comment to say "[d]epending on the country and on whether you did anything illegal."

Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2012, 07:58:53 AMAgain, has anyone experienced a police stop or checkpoint without the ability to communicate verbally?

This is how I routinely experience police stops and checkpoints.  I am deaf, with > 90% hearing loss in both ears.  (I don't read lips unless I have the context.  Deaf people who can claim to lipread reliably are generally leveraging a significant amount of residual hearing, whether they admit it or not.)  Verbal communication simply doesn't happen.

In the US deaf people used to count on being able to avoid speeding tickets by indicating that they could not hear.  This was because it was usually more trouble for the cop to write out whatever needed to be said verbally as the ticket was issued, and also because deaf drivers have a reputation for (slightly) better crash and insurance claims experience compared to hearing drivers.  However, in the last decade or so that has changed, partly because hearing and deaf drivers were abusing the system by either feigning deafness or ostentatiously displaying it in hopes of avoiding tickets.  In Kansas, if you are a deaf driver over age 21, your driver's license photograph will be taken against a white background, not red (under 21) or blue (over 21), and this tells the officer that you are deaf as soon as you hand over your license.  Further communication then typically takes place by pen and paper.  (I can attest to white-background photographs for deaf drivers only in Kansas, but I suspect the convention applies nationally.  Some states, like New Jersey, grant deaf drivers a different type of driver's license which has exactly the same entitlements as the driver's license that "ordinary" hearing drivers get, so that they cannot be successfully sued for substantive discrimination, but which nevertheless singles deaf drivers out and sends them the message that they are on sufferance.)

It is not just police officers on traffic duty who seem to have received training on dealing with deaf drivers with pen and paper.  I had to communicate with Border Patrol officers by pen and paper a few years ago when I pulled up to the SR 83 checkpoint near Sonoita, was given what appeared to be a signal to proceed on my way, and was then suspected of attempting to evade inspection.

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 26, 2012, 02:31:23 PM
In Kansas, if you are a deaf driver over age 21, your driver's license photograph will be taken against a white background, not red (under 21) or blue (over 21), and this tells the officer that you are deaf as soon as you hand over your license.  Further communication then typically takes place by pen and paper.  (I can attest to white-background photographs for deaf drivers only in Kansas, but I suspect the convention applies nationally.  Some states, like New Jersey, grant deaf drivers a different type of driver's license which has exactly the same entitlements as the driver's license that "ordinary" hearing drivers get, so that they cannot be successfully sued for substantive discrimination, but which nevertheless singles deaf drivers out and sends them the message that they are on sufferance.)

How is this achieved at the DMV? Are there three backdrops and you are told to stand in front of the appropriate one? In Oklahoma, all photos are taken with a blue background–each tag agency has a single blue backdrop which you sit or stand in front of (I assume the backdrop is a standard piece of equipment issued to tag agencies from Oklahoma DPS). Under 21s are identified by having the license printed in portrait orientation rather than landscape (many states do this, including Texas, Michigan, and Utah to name three), and deaf drivers are identified with an additional symbol done in white on a blue square that depicts a stylized ear with a slash through it.

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 26, 2012, 02:31:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2012, 07:58:53 AMAgain, has anyone experienced a police stop or checkpoint without the ability to communicate verbally?

This is how I routinely experience police stops and checkpoints.  I am deaf, with > 90% hearing loss in both ears.  (I don't read lips unless I have the context.  Deaf people who can claim to lipread reliably are generally leveraging a significant amount of residual hearing, whether they admit it or not.)  Verbal communication simply doesn't happen.

I have a friend (who incidentally works for the USDOT) who is deaf but reads my lips well (and yes, I think he has some residual hearing, though I have not and will not ask him about that).

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 26, 2012, 02:31:23 PM
In the US deaf people used to count on being able to avoid speeding tickets by indicating that they could not hear.  This was because it was usually more trouble for the cop to write out whatever needed to be said verbally as the ticket was issued, and also because deaf drivers have a reputation for (slightly) better crash and insurance claims experience compared to hearing drivers.  However, in the last decade or so that has changed, partly because hearing and deaf drivers were abusing the system by either feigning deafness or ostentatiously displaying it in hopes of avoiding tickets.  In Kansas, if you are a deaf driver over age 21, your driver's license photograph will be taken against a white background, not red (under 21) or blue (over 21), and this tells the officer that you are deaf as soon as you hand over your license.  Further communication then typically takes place by pen and paper.  (I can attest to white-background photographs for deaf drivers only in Kansas, but I suspect the convention applies nationally.  Some states, like New Jersey, grant deaf drivers a different type of driver's license which has exactly the same entitlements as the driver's license that "ordinary" hearing drivers get, so that they cannot be successfully sued for substantive discrimination, but which nevertheless singles deaf drivers out and sends them the message that they are on sufferance.)

Rather like the Hispanic driver who tells a police officer (in the U.S.) No hablo Inglés, which the results in the officer getting on his radio and asking for a Spanish speaking officer to assist, and invariably the driver then gets a ticket.  At truck weigh stations, if a truck gets stopped for overweight or a safety inspection, any driver who says he does not speak English gets a ticket for that, since at least some basic mastery of English is required to drive a commercial vehicle (especially scary are the Chinatown buses with drivers who do not speak English - I don't know what state they got a CDL in).

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 26, 2012, 02:31:23 PM
It is not just police officers on traffic duty who seem to have received training on dealing with deaf drivers with pen and paper.  I had to communicate with Border Patrol officers by pen and paper a few years ago when I pulled up to the SR 83 checkpoint near Sonoita, was given what appeared to be a signal to proceed on my way, and was then suspected of attempting to evade inspection.

I see a lot of people with limited hearing around my office (in Northeast Washington, D.C.) because we are not that far from the campus of Gallaudet University (http://www.gallaudet.edu/), a school of higher learning for the deaf, located on Florida Avenue, N.E.

Interestingly, the two fast food joints reasonably near the campus (a Burger King and a Wendy's) seem to make some effort to have an employee (usually a management type) that knows at least a little sign language behind the counter (and the customers speaking in sign obviously know who that person is).

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 27, 2012, 01:16:59 AMHow is this achieved at the DMV? Are there three backdrops and you are told to stand in front of the appropriate one? In Oklahoma, all photos are taken with a blue background–each tag agency has a single blue backdrop which you sit or stand in front of (I assume the backdrop is a standard piece of equipment issued to tag agencies from Oklahoma DPS). Under 21s are identified by having the license printed in portrait orientation rather than landscape (many states do this, including Texas, Michigan, and Utah to name three), and deaf drivers are identified with an additional symbol done in white on a blue square that depicts a stylized ear with a slash through it.

In Kansas the DMV is under the state Department of Revenue and the driver licensing offices are run by the state, although county treasurers' offices are allowed to handle some simple licensing tasks such as issuance of uncomplicated license renewals.  I have only ever renewed my license at the state-run offices, where the backgrounds are all mounted on a flipchart.  The clerk who handles the renewal process chooses the appropriate background after studying your license details and renewal card (you are sent a postcard indicating you must renew your license, which usually arrives two months before it expires).  I have noticed that the staff rushes to flip to the white background as soon as they say something to me and I have to point to my ears and ask to have it written down because I don't understand it.  I have often wondered what would happen if I made more effort to pretend I could hear, but I don't rate my chances of getting a blue background very highly because the existing license with the white background is invariably in front of them.  Deaf drivers are not otherwise distinguished on Kansas driver's licenses--nothing like the crossed-out ear symbol you describe is used here.  Restrictions on license validity (e.g., "CORRECTIVE LENSES"--which I have to wear when driving since I am nearsighted) are noted in red type.

Kansas does the portrait-format licenses too, though before I read your post, it hadn't occurred to me that these might be for under-21s specifically.  I have always had a landscape-format license.  My first license was granted when I was 17 1/2, and the portrait was taken against a red background.  Since license validity is keyed to your birthday in Kansas and the state was at that time issuing four-year licenses, my next license photo was taken against a blue background with "NOT 21 UNTIL [date of my 21st birthday]" in yellow on red against the bottom of the photo.  (I had gone to the DMV before the last license expired in order to maintain continuous licensure.)  I believe it was either at the next renewal cycle or the one immediately following when my photo began to be taken against white backgrounds.

I last renewed my license in December 2011 (I have a January birthday).  My new license has six-year validity.  My parents, who are both over 65, had to renew their own licenses as well, and in both cases were given new licenses with just four-year validity.  They complain of age discrimination, but I am not completely sure the shorter validity results from their age.  I know my father has received one ticket for a moving violation in the last two renewal cycles, and I suspect my mother has as well, while my last ticket (speeding in my case) was in 1995.

It used to be that your new driver's license was issued to you as you left the driver licensing office.  That has not been the case for at least the last two renewal cycles.  Instead, you are given a receipt consisting of your portrait and a number printed on thermal paper which you must carry with you and present as your license if you have left things too long and must drive without a valid plastic card license before the new one comes in the mail from Topeka.

I received my first driver's license from a state-run office in Pawnee Plaza (at the intersection of Pawnee and Broadway) which was closed several years later in state cutbacks.  I have received every subsequent license except the current one from the Twin Lakes office (in a shopping center at 21st and Amidon which is now so decrepit that the licensing bureau is effectively an anchor store).  Twin Lakes is now the only licensing office left in Wichita, which has 350,000 people, so it is mobbed even when it is not having IT problems, which are now the norm owing to recent and badly planned upgrades.  The last time I went to renew my license, I drove clear across town to Andover, a Butler County suburb of Wichita, and felt lucky to escape with just a 30-minute wait.

Recently, and possibly in response to a spate of Eagle stories about people who show up early at Twin Lakes, wait for four hours, and then are told the office is closing for the day because the computer system has gone down, the DMV has introduced a booking system which allows you to take a number (not sure whether it is online or if you actually have to show up in person), and then leave the premises until about fifteen minutes before your number is called, at which point you receive a message by SMS indicating your turn is almost up.  I am not aware that the situation has improved in terms of system downtime, however.  This is just the way things work now in Brownbackistan.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 27, 2012, 09:23:24 AMRather like the Hispanic driver who tells a police officer (in the U.S.) No hablo inglés, which the results in the officer getting on his radio and asking for a Spanish speaking officer to assist, and invariably the driver then gets a ticket.

If you mean to imply that the Spanish-speaking driver would have been less likely to get a ticket if he had pretended to speak English, then it does not work that way for deaf drivers.  In my personal experience, whether a police officer has to get out writing materials or resort to pointing and gesturing does not generally have a bearing on whether I get a ticket or not.  The one time I got a ticket, I had been clocked at 66 in a 55 in a workzone.  This was a couple of years into the workzone fines-doubling policy, so I think the Kansas Highway Patrol trooper had already decided to issue the ticket before he got out of his cruiser.

My personal policy, when dealing with officials who have the powers of detention and arrest, is to avoid doing anything which might generate misunderstandings that redound to my disadvantage.  If the officer doesn't want to write stuff down but I can tell that he is minded to let me go, I will play along with that, but if there is a hint the situation is developing in a sticky direction, I will ask to have things written down.

Out of curiosity, how do you alert the officer to your being deaf in the first instance? Do you keep a piece of paper in the car that says that you are deaf and then hold it up when the officer comes to your vehicle? I'm just curious. The one hearing-impaired person I know well (guy who lives across the street from my parents, he was in my high school class and inherited the house when his father died) lip-reads and is able to speak, though he can be hard to understand. I don't want to ask him about it, though, because I know he has a long string of traffic tickets and some other legal issues and so if I asked him about it I feel like I might come across as saying, "Hey, I know you get in trouble with the cops all the time...."

I understand that if you get pulled over in Kansas the special license would tell the cop you can't hear, but my question is how you deal with it when you go to other states (although one would hope you wouldn't know whether it's an issue, of course!).

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2012, 11:02:46 AMOut of curiosity, how do you alert the officer to your being deaf in the first instance? Do you keep a piece of paper in the car that says that you are deaf and then hold it up when the officer comes to your vehicle? I'm just curious. The one hearing-impaired person I know well (guy who lives across the street from my parents, he was in my high school class and inherited the house when his father died) lip-reads and is able to speak, though he can be hard to understand. I don't want to ask him about it, though, because I know he has a long string of traffic tickets and some other legal issues and so if I asked him about it I feel like I might come across as saying, "Hey, I know you get in trouble with the cops all the time...."

Usually I look at the officer when he starts saying stuff, and then point at one ear with my index finger, look kind of confused, and shake my head.  This usually (not always) results in the officer pointing at his lips and asking if I can read lips.  I then shake my head again, make a writing gesture, and say, "Could you . . .?"

This usually happens after I hand over my driver's license.  My personal policy is to get my driver's license out as soon as I bring the car to a stop, but not to get out the registration or the proof of insurance unless it is asked for.  The reason I don't volunteer the latter is that I want the police officer to observe how I go about getting them out of the glove box.  If the police officer sees me reaching into the glove box as soon as he pulls behind me in his cruiser, and I am then staring right at him as he walks up to the driver's window, he has no way of knowing whether the thing I extracted from the glove box was paperwork or a firearm.  That amps up the tension because police officers are trained to expect anyone that is looking right at them to be preparing to shoot them with a concealed weapon.  On the other hand, if I don't have the car paperwork handy and the police officer sees me turn away from him to riffle among the maps and whatnot in the glove box, then that makes me look slightly clueless but basically good-natured, which is exactly how I want to look at a traffic stop.

I have heard of other deaf people who carry laminated cards which say, basically, "I am deaf" and then something like "This is how you communicate with me" or "Don't attempt casual conversation," but I really, really dislike this approach.  Under the best possible circumstances it is impersonal; usually it comes across as brusque, unfriendly, and offputting.  I don't personally know any deaf people who follow this approach and I suspect it is favored only among those who have chosen to immerse themselves in a culturally deaf environment--something which is nearly as foreign to me as it would be to you because I was mainstreamed in public schools and use signed English rather than straight ASL.

QuoteI understand that if you get pulled over in Kansas the special license would tell the cop you can't hear, but my question is how you deal with it when you go to other states (although one would hope you wouldn't know whether it's an issue, of course!).

I cannot remember having been pulled over in any other US state.  However, I have been pulled over in a couple of foreign countries--once in Ireland, and once in Mexico.  In both cases I followed essentially the same routine as on traffic stops in Kansas.  In Ireland it was a British vehicle keeper's certificate and a "green card" (proof of insurance coverage outside Britain, given by British insurers for intra-EU foreign travel) which I got out of the glove box.  In Mexico I did the writing-in-air thing, but did not bother to say "Could you . . ." because English was not the dominant language.  In both cases the traffic stop was very short and I escaped without being cited.

I should also say that the chronological distribution of my traffic stops is very one-sided.  I have been driving for 20 years, and all of my traffic stops occurred within 10 years of first licensure.  With the exception of three (the one in Ireland, the one in Mexico, and a later occasion when I was pulled over for 70 in a two-lane 65 on US 83 in western Kansas), they all also occurred within five years of first licensure and also at a time when I was averaging about 30,000 miles annually.  My last 10,000-mile roadtrip (accomplished without a single traffic stop) was in 2003, and since then I have barely broken 5,000 driving miles a year.

With the exception of Mexico (illegal turn on red after stop) and Ireland (illegal overtake of a slow-moving farm vehicle--a maneuver which in context would have been legal in Britain but apparently wasn't in Ireland), all of my stops have been for speeding.  Only one of those stops, and the one where I was actually ticketed, was for speeding in a workzone.

I note you haven't gotten pulled over (for speeding or whatnot) in the last 10 years, but have you had police come up to you while you were stopped for some roadgeek activity? 

I get police inquiring into what I'm doing about 5-10 times a year.  it's more frequent if it's night, if I'm parked on a busy road and looks like I might be in distress, or if I seem unusally (possibly larcenously) focused on a road sign.

most of the time, a simple "just taking photos" is enough, but every so often they ask for ID and find an excuse to make small talk.

has that ever happened to anyone else?

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2012, 01:20:16 PMI note you haven't gotten pulled over (for speeding or whatnot) in the last 10 years, but have you had police come up to you while you were stopped for some roadgeek activity?

Yes, I have, many times, partly because I like to stop on the shoulder for out-of-the-car sign shots.  (I am much less willing to do this on freeways than I was when I was younger.)  In 2003 I was taking pictures of fresh signs near the southern approach of the Astoria-Megler Bridge when an Astoria police officer pulled up, asked me for ID, and asked what I was doing.  I explained that I was interested in the signs since I had obtained a copy of the construction plans for them.  I also said I disagreed with the guide signing at the intersection in front of us because the designer had used one single downward-pointing arrow for multiple lanes to indicate destinations in the forward direction, when he would have been better off using an upward-pointing arrow despite the sign being mounted overhead.  This was too technical for the officer and he got away from me as fast as he could.

QuoteI get police inquiring into what I'm doing about 3-4 times a year.  it's more correlated if it's night, if I'm parked on a busy road and looks like I might be in distress, or if I seem unusually (possibly larcenously) focused on a road sign.

Yes, I have also noticed that those factors tend to enhance police interest.  Partly for this reason, I am now more picky about where I stop and usually try to access suitable vantage points on foot after I leave my car in a parking lot, or on reasonably level hardpack off the shoulder if formal parking is not available.  My car was sitting in a parking lot somewhere off Marine Drive when I was answering the Astoria cop's questions.

Thinking about it from the police officer's point of view, I think it is more likely that an officer will stop for a car parked on the shoulder of a freeway--even if the car and its driver are in no obvious mechanical distress--for two reasons.  First, if the car is later involved in an accident, it is easier for the officer to explain to his patrol supervisor that he stopped and tried to do something, rather than admit that he simply cruised by a distress situation in the making.  Second, as cars become safer and the fatality rate (expressed as deaths per passenger-kilometer) on freeways continues to drop, the sole parameter that stubbornly resists improvement is deaths of people who are on or near the freeway but not in a car.  These people are therefore more and more likely to be seen as a safety problem and to attract law enforcement attention for that reason alone.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2012, 01:20:16 PM
I note you haven't gotten pulled over (for speeding or whatnot) in the last 10 years, but have you had police come up to you while you were stopped for some roadgeek activity? 
...has that ever happened to anyone else?

Granted, this was still in the US, far from any non-English speaking areas...I had it happen to me a couple weeks ago. On my way back from visiting family, I stopped by a construction site that my company drew up the original plans for. The site also had a newspaper article written about it, complaining that there were too many signs. (FWIW, it did, but we had nothing to do with that portion of the project). I was walking around the construction corridor, along the newly opened multi-use path, safety vest on and camera in hand...next thing I know I had a cop asking me to come over by him. He seemed very surprised I was out on a Sunday, and so far from home (about 1.5 hours away). He was also very concerned that I might have had a grocery store in the background of a few of my photos. (Still not sure about that one, since it was nothing that couldn't have been seen from GSV). He asked for my ID and proceeded to call me in to dispatch. Surprise, surprise, they found no record and everything checked out (much to the officer's disappointment, base on the look on his face). He tried to save a little face by trying to make some "intelligent" small talk (when the work was going to be done, etc.), but that was about it. He never did tell me what I was doing wrong. I chalked it up to it being a slow Sunday afternoon, in a small town with a Barney Fife kind of police department.

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 27, 2012, 01:02:14 PM
Usually I look at the officer when he starts saying stuff, and then point at one ear with my index finger, look kind of confused, and shake my head.  This usually (not always) results in the officer pointing at his lips and asking if I can read lips.  I then shake my head again, make a writing gesture, and say, "Could you . . .?"

The one time to date that I have encountered a deaf patron at my job, he used the same gesture. I managed to get his license by way of writing a note, and the information that I needed that was not on that I was able to obtain by pointing at the blanks on my form and allowing him to fill them in himself. We managed to work it out pretty well for not having anything set up to handle the situation ahead of time.

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 27, 2012, 01:40:12 PM
I also said I disagreed with the guide signing at the intersection in front of us because the designer had used one single downward-pointing arrow for multiple lanes to indicate destinations in the forward direction, when he would have been better off using an upward-pointing arrow despite the sign being mounted overhead.  This was too technical for the officer and he got away from me as fast as he could.

Using the general public's tendency to be put off by excessive roadgeekiness to your benefit. I love it.

Quote from: DaBigE on August 27, 2012, 02:22:24 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2012, 01:20:16 PM
I note you haven't gotten pulled over (for speeding or whatnot) in the last 10 years, but have you had police come up to you while you were stopped for some roadgeek activity? 
...has that ever happened to anyone else?

Granted, this was still in the US, far from any non-English speaking areas...I had it happen to me a couple weeks ago. On my way back from visiting family, I stopped by a construction site that my company drew up the original plans for. The site also had a newspaper article written about it, complaining that there were too many signs. (FWIW, it did, but we had nothing to do with that portion of the project). I was walking around the construction corridor, along the newly opened multi-use path, safety vest on and camera in hand...next thing I know I had a cop asking me to come over by him.

My approach to this would have probably been to imply that what I was doing was for the company's benefit, without outright saying so. "My company designed these signs... I was in the area so I was getting some pictures..." I have yet to be questioned by police for roadgeek activity, but since I edit Wikipedia, I usually have a spiel prepared about how I am working on the article on X road and having a picture of Y feature would vastly improve it...

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 27, 2012, 01:40:12 PM
I also said I disagreed with the guide signing at the intersection in front of us because the designer had used one single downward-pointing arrow for multiple lanes to indicate destinations in the forward direction, when he would have been better off using an upward-pointing arrow despite the sign being mounted overhead.  This was too technical for the officer and he got away from me as fast as he could.

that is awesome.  :sombrero:

I try to stop on freeways as infrequently as possible.  usually the two-laners have more interesting views in general, in my opinion.  (but some of the overpasses to I-70 in Utah provide some opportunities)

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/blog/photos/045472.jpg)

once I was told that I'd have to stop taking photos from an overpass.  Fair enough - there were no sidewalks so I was standing in the vehicle lane.  at night with a tripod.  (and a reflective vest, but still, I understand the public safety perspective.)  other times, I've been permitted to stay in that exact situation.  "well, I'm just gonna run some radar.  y'all stay safe."

I've never had an interaction initiated by police officer outside the US, apart from customs/immigration agents, so I do not know what the culture would be like there. 

On our most recent México trip, we encountered a police stop in town, and both of our vehicles were flagged down.  I had left my import paperwork back at the house (oops), but that caused no real issues.  The other driver had grown up as a missionary's kid in the Dominican Republic, and spoke some Spanish, but pretended not to during the stop; this was recommended procedure back in the D.R.  To indicate that he wanted to see the driver's license, the officer actually pulled out his own license as an example.  Apparently, the officer also explained that it's illegal to drive a Mexican-plated car without a Mexican license (which I think might be true), but neither one of us was cited for anything.

Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2012, 04:51:00 PM
Apparently, the officer also explained that it's illegal to drive a Mexican-plated car without a Mexican license (which I think might be true), but neither one of us was cited for anything.

there's gotta be an exemption for rental cars.  do those receive special plates, then?

No.  You're right, I believe it is an exception written into the law.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 28, 2012, 04:51:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2012, 04:51:00 PM
Apparently, the officer also explained that it's illegal to drive a Mexican-plated car without a Mexican license (which I think might be true), but neither one of us was cited for anything.

there's gotta be an exemption for rental cars.  do those receive special plates, then?

Beats me.  The one time I rented a car in Mexico (Cozumel), it lacked any sort of license plates.

The times I've rented cars in Mexico (also Cozumel and once in Playa del Carmen) they had license plates but they also usually had stickers identifying the rental company (something I didn't like at all, but there wasn't any choice because at the time all the rental places there did this).

The only time I've rented a car in México was from a small local shop which advertised online that their cars were not marked in any way as rentals.  I had a guy ask once when I was parallel parking in Vallarta if the car was mine or a rental; I just ignored him and walked away.  I've seen pictures of rental plates online, but never in real life.

The rental stickers in Cozumel weren't subtle. I dug around and found some pictures. These are from 2002 (the one with me behind the wheel) and 2004.

Of course, that blue car was pretty damn obviously a rental anyway, so who cares in that case. We got that rental for free for putting up with a timeshare presentation and I asked for that car since Mezcalito's was the only place we were going that day anyway. That thing was not particularly easy to drive, a lot heavier than it looks and it had a rear-mounted VW Beetle air-cooled boxer-4.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F0bcff1d4.jpg&hash=1ed23bc9c7082a203e7ba31052dc8270db6a9794)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F5b7ec7f3.jpg&hash=a27e31b95e80b5ebbd4c383a1b841d26233b7c6c)

Then there's the matter of Quebec.  I know a few words of French (and can usually understand the highway signs), but not enough for a decent conversation with someone.

But in spite of the provincial language policies that strongly encourage French, I have found that most people there I have interacted with know English, and many of them speak absolutely fluent English.

And, from what I've heard, there are even neighborhoods in Quebec where people have English as a first language... a lot of that province would probably be 100% English were it not for the provincial policies.

They aren't even all that recent either even if the special status is... Ontario was split off after the American Revolution to keep loyalists fleeing the US from polluting the French-speaking Quebec with English!

Quote from: deanej on August 31, 2012, 01:39:11 PM
And, from what I've heard, there are even neighborhoods in Quebec where people have English as a first language... a lot of that province would probably be 100% English were it not for the provincial policies.

They aren't even all that recent either even if the special status is... Ontario was split off after the American Revolution to keep loyalists fleeing the US from polluting the French-speaking Quebec with English!

Yes, you're right.  And, over the past 20 years (since the separatist sentiments really got going), tens of thousands of Anglophones have fled Quebec.  For example, many of the eastern townships (Estrie) were primarily English speaking.  No longer.  And, the entire western portion of the Ile de Montreal was almost entirely Anglophone.  Now, many have left.  And, the more that move away (usually to Ontario), the more oppressive the language policies become as there are fewer and fewer Anglophones to oppose them. 

I've always found Canada's handling of the language issue to be absurd.  French is required to be an equal to English nationwide, despite the fact that there are very few Francophones west of easternmost Ontario.  By the time you get to B.C., far more of the population speaks Mandarin than French.   Yet, the one place where the 'language equality' rule doesn't apply is Quebec, where - by law - English cannot have equal billing to French.  They even had to make up new words.  Such as a word for "golf", because it was deemed to be English.  Yet, in France, they call it "golf".   And, do stop signs in France actually say 'ARRET'?  There are other examples where Quebec's language police cause the province to be more radically French than France (by far).    :rolleyes:

All that said, I still never had an issue reading the signs in Quebec.  They are easy to figure out.  Even though I don't speak French.   

^^ Bizarrely, stop signs in France, from the pictures I've seen, actually say "STOP".

Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Quote from: Chris on September 20, 2012, 07:33:12 AMWhile Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script

But then it's called Croat or Croatian. :P

Neither Bulgarian or Serbian have the letter Ѕ, but Macedonian does have it, so it says 'dztor' if you transliterate it from Cyrillic to Latin.

Given it's the really really obvious hexagonal shape, it matters less that it's in an obvious language.

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 19, 2012, 03:41:39 PM
Yes, you're right.  And, over the past 20 years (since the separatist sentiments really got going), tens of thousands of Anglophones have fled Quebec.  For example, many of the eastern townships (Estrie) were primarily English speaking.  No longer.  And, the entire western portion of the Ile de Montreal was almost entirely Anglophone.  Now, many have left.  And, the more that move away (usually to Ontario), the more oppressive the language policies become as there are fewer and fewer Anglophones to oppose them. 

I've always found Canada's handling of the language issue to be absurd.  French is required to be an equal to English nationwide, despite the fact that there are very few Francophones west of easternmost Ontario.  By the time you get to B.C., far more of the population speaks Mandarin than French.   Yet, the one place where the 'language equality' rule doesn't apply is Quebec, where - by law - English cannot have equal billing to French.  They even had to make up new words.  Such as a word for "golf", because it was deemed to be English.  Yet, in France, they call it "golf".   And, do stop signs in France actually say 'ARRET'?  There are other examples where Quebec's language police cause the province to be more radically French than France (by far).    :rolleyes:

Québec's tendency of being more strictly French that France comes from a combination of its minority status among North American states and its population's desire to retain their francophone heritage. France is in some kind of balanced environment where each of its neighbouring states speak its own language and has no obvious numeric superiority over the others.

I'm French (I'm the only fluent English speaker in my family), yet I disagree with some of Québec's language policies and almost all of the new policies they want to pass this year (which includes banning French students from attending English colleges).

Despite having elected a sovereignist government a few weeks ago, not a lot of people (40% in the most optimistic polls) are very hot to the idea of seceding from Canada right now, given how problems like an aging infrastructure and corruption still need to be addressed. Considering that the PQ is in a minority government, it's safe to say it won't happen within the current term.

I like Canada's bilingualism. I think it's part of the rich culture that makes this country unique, and I think there is much more friction than needed between the two language groups; friction that unfortunately goes beyond political topics.

I think that the equal status of French as an official language along with English is justified. 23.2% of Canadians speak French natively and 58.8% of Canadians were raised in English (2006 Census). With the non-official and indigenous languages taken out, you have about 1 native French speaker for every 2.5 native English speakers. The number of native French speakers in the country is over 6 million, and about 600,000 with Québec taken out of the numbers. (This means that roughly one francophone out of 10 lives outside of Québec.) There needs to be some sort of availability for French language services in nearly all of the eastern provinces because the absolute demand is there.

Switzerland has official equal status for French and Italian along with German for proportions of respectively 20% and 6.5% (German has 64%, Romansh has second-class status with 0.46%, 35,000 speakers).

I do not necessarily agree with Québec's policy of having only one official language and no official recognition of English, despite having over 500,000 native speakers representing nearly 8% of the population. While I understand the need to preserve our French heritage (which I value, and yes, I prefer French over English as a language in general), I find it very odd that the government strives to make its services accessible to people with all kinds of disabilities while completely disregarding the 5% that is not fluent in French. Of course, a lot of people disagree with that and would like the provincial government to completely ignore languages other than French, judging from the protests that the government agency I work for has been subjected to due to the fact that we provide forms and basic services in English upon request... Learning French should be strongly encouraged, and I believe that there should be some requirement for more-than-basic French to get a college (CÉGEP) degree, even English ones (after all, everyone already has to pass three literature classes and a standardized literature exam for some reason, regardless of the major).

I agree, however, with the requirement that all commercial businesses be able to serve their customers in French, and that commercial displays and signage have French as the predominant language. Requiring that French text be twice as large as other languages seems to be pushing it, and I haven't seen that specific requirement in the Bill 101 text... jurisprudence perhaps? (extending that requirement to highway signs is just ridiculous.) As long as French appears first and that it isn't smaller than other languages, I'm perfectly fine with it.

Regarding stop signs, "stop" is present in French dictionaries, it is legal to use it on a stop sign (http://www.granddictionnaire.com/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=8366697) (the MTQ even has a standard design for that version), and some cities use it, despite the repeated complaints of uninformed citizens. The use of "ARRÊT" on almost all stop signs is mostly symbolic, in my opinion.

The official French word for "golf" is "golf". (http://www.granddictionnaire.com/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=8364450) The OQLF did make official French versions of some specialized sport terminology, like skateboarding and snowboarding figures, which were laughed at and entirely disregarded by everyone. More recently, a fancy translation for the word "Tweet" ("gazouillis") started to appear in the media last year, but it has not been sanctioned by the OQLF, which lists both as discouraged but not incorrect (the recommended terms are the brand-neutral forms micromessage and microbillet (http://www.granddictionnaire.com/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=26502418)).

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on September 20, 2012, 11:33:27 AM
....

The official French word for "golf" is "golf". (http://www.granddictionnaire.com/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=8364450) The OQLF did make official French versions of some specialized sport terminology, like skateboarding and snowboarding figures, which were laughed at and entirely disregarded by everyone. More recently, a fancy translation for the word "Tweet" ("gazouillis") started to appear in the media last year, but it has not been sanctioned by the OQLF, which lists both as discouraged but not incorrect (the recommended terms are the brand-neutral forms micromessage and microbillet (http://www.granddictionnaire.com/ficheOqlf.aspx?Id_Fiche=26502418)).

Indeed there is a street near Mont-Tremblant named chemin du Golf, which amused me when I saw it:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FTremblant2006091_zps6141c420.jpg&hash=e344f46d3a031dfd077d591ba4236f049cdbc8af)

Quote from: Chris on September 20, 2012, 07:33:12 AM
Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Many Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas use PARE instead of ALTO on their stop signs. Puerto Rico is the one that immediately comes to mind. PARE = stop while ALTO = halt.

Quote from: realjd on September 20, 2012, 01:49:53 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 20, 2012, 07:33:12 AM
Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Many Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas use PARE instead of ALTO on their stop signs. Puerto Rico is the one that immediately comes to mind. PARE = stop while ALTO = halt.

Having traveled extensively throughout Latin America, I can tell you where:

ALTO is used in Mexico and Central America; PARE is used in South America (even Brazil) and in Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries.  Why?  I honestly can't tell you.  The strict translation of "ALTO" in this context (because as a adjective it would be 'high' or 'tall') would be "HALT".   PARE does mean "you stop".   

And yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on September 20, 2012, 11:33:27 AM

I think that the equal status of French as an official language along with English is justified. 23.2% of Canadians speak French natively and 58.8% of Canadians were raised in English (2006 Census). With the non-official and indigenous languages taken out, you have about 1 native French speaker for every 2.5 native English speakers. The number of native French speakers in the country is over 6 million, and about 600,000 with Québec taken out of the numbers. (This means that roughly one francophone out of 10 lives outside of Québec.) There needs to be some sort of availability for French language services in nearly all of the eastern provinces because the absolute demand is there.

So, outside of Quebec, only 5% of the population are native French speakers?  Around 600,000?  Take out New Brunswick (which is truly bilingual), what do you have?  A very small percentage - especially in western Canada.  Because I'd venture that at least half of that remainder live in New Brunswick (which is beautifully bilingual).   Many of the rest live in eastern Ontario, leaving only Quebec transplants who live in major cities outside the province.  So, seeing everything in English and French while in Calgary or Vancouver is a total non-sequitur.   As I said before, there are far more speakers of Mandarin than French in Vancouver and more Arabic and Mandarin speakers in Toronto than there are francophones.  This is why the equal billing of French across the country sometimes seems odd.

All that said, I still wouldn't have a problem with it IF everything were equal.   But, what you've so aptly described is exactly what I take issue with: francophone Quebecois get to have their cake and eat it too.  Everyone in the country has to have French thrust upon them, whether people there are French-speaking or not.  Yet, English does not have any status in Quebec - so the majority of Canadians who speak English are foreigners in parts of their own country.  It's unreasonable in my view and I respectfully disagree with you there.

And, I'll tell you one last thing: these laws are not doing Quebecois any favors.  The province has suffered economically while boosting Ontario over the past 2 decades.  Furthermore (and as an anecdote), I can personally attest to having visited local businesses and government offices in communities outside of Montreal where only 1 person in the building spoke English.  And they'd only speak it with me after finding out that I am from the US.  Some municipal officers had to go and fetch the mayor to talk with me, because he'd be the only English speaker!  That's not good when you live on a continent and in a nation that is economically dependent on the English-speaking majority.  I've found more bilingual people in Costa Rica than I encountered in non-Montreal Quebec!   And this was more than once.  Places like Drummondville, Quebec City, and Trois Riveres - to name a few.   That cannot possibly be good for business.   

Anyhow, at least I could figure out the signs with little difficulty.   :colorful:

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 20, 2012, 02:34:46 PM

Quote from: realjd on September 20, 2012, 01:49:53 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 20, 2012, 07:33:12 AM
Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Many Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas use PARE instead of ALTO on their stop signs. Puerto Rico is the one that immediately comes to mind. PARE = stop while ALTO = halt.

Having traveled extensively throughout Latin America, I can tell you where:

ALTO is used in Mexico and Central America; PARE is used in South America (even Brazil) and in Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries.  Why?  I honestly can't tell you.  The strict translation of "ALTO" in this context (because as a adjective it would be 'high' or 'tall') would be "HALT".   PARE does mean "you stop".   

And yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

More tehcnically, alto is a noun, which came to Spanish either from the Latin altus or from the German halt.  The hypothetical verb form altar, as far as I know, does not exist in Spanish.  Pare is the command form of the verb parar, which means to stop.  Therefore ALTO would imply "this is where you should stop", whereas PARE would imply "Stop, dammit!".

CORRECTION:  The other meaning of alto, which is high or tall, came from the Latin altus.

Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2012, 02:58:58 PM

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 20, 2012, 02:34:46 PM

Quote from: realjd on September 20, 2012, 01:49:53 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 20, 2012, 07:33:12 AM
Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Many Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas use PARE instead of ALTO on their stop signs. Puerto Rico is the one that immediately comes to mind. PARE = stop while ALTO = halt.

Having traveled extensively throughout Latin America, I can tell you where:

ALTO is used in Mexico and Central America; PARE is used in South America (even Brazil) and in Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries.  Why?  I honestly can't tell you.  The strict translation of "ALTO" in this context (because as a adjective it would be 'high' or 'tall') would be "HALT".   PARE does mean "you stop".   

And yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

More tehcnically, alto is a noun, which came to Spanish either from the Latin altus or from the German halt.  The hypothetical verb form altar, as far as I know, does not exist in Spanish.  Pare is the command form of the verb parar, which means to stop.  Therefore ALTO would imply "this is where you should stop", whereas PARE would imply "Stop, dammit!".

Romanes eunt domus!

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 20, 2012, 02:34:46 PMAnd yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

"STOP" has official standing:  it is diagrammed in the national traffic signing catalogue.  Spain is occasionally bilingual on direction signs and certain specialized kinds of informatory sign, but not--to my knowledge--on regulatory signs other than toll signs.  Any uses of words other than "STOP" in Spain are likely to be local curiosities, like stop signs in Cherokee on Indian reservations, or "WHOA" inside dudified rural subdivisions in Wyoming.

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 21, 2012, 01:36:03 AM

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 20, 2012, 02:34:46 PMAnd yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

"STOP" has official standing:  it is diagrammed in the national traffic signing catalogue.  Spain is occasionally bilingual on direction signs and certain specialized kinds of informatory sign, but not--to my knowledge--on regulatory signs other than toll signs.  Any uses of words other than "STOP" in Spain are likely to be local curiosities, like stop signs in Cherokee on Indian reservations, or "WHOA" inside dudified rural subdivisions in Wyoming.

The word for STOP in the Finnish language is PYSÃ,,KKI.  The word for STOP in the other official language in Finland (Swedish) is STOPP.

In spite of the above, this is what an official STOP sign looks like in Finland:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toward.com%2Fcpz%2F232.jpg&hash=d705558965473b2ee73d0dcb2f9b33b737143bde)

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 21, 2012, 01:36:03 AM
"WHOA" inside dudified rural subdivisions in Wyoming.

Which is completely unenforceable.

I thought this fun fact would add to this discussion.

In New York, the drivers license application form is available in English, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, and Bengali.

http://www.dmv.ny.gov/forms.htm#mv44

I am pretty sure I have never seen a sign in Bengali before. 

I went to Puerto Rico in 09.  I encountered a biker trying to tell me something while driving NB PR 52 out of Ponce.  I do  not know to this day what he was trying to communicate, as the car I was driving looked Okay and no gas cap open or low tire pressure.

I ofter wonder how many Puerto Ricans know the English language around the island?  I know in the tourist areas they do, but out of the mainstream resorts, does anyone really know our language?

Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 03:10:29 PM
I went to Puerto Rico in 09.  I encountered a biker trying to tell me something while driving NB PR 52 out of Ponce.  I do  not know to this day what he was trying to communicate, as the car I was driving looked Okay and no gas cap open or low tire pressure.

I ofter wonder how many Puerto Ricans know the English language around the island?  I know in the tourist areas they do, but out of the mainstream resorts, does anyone really know our language?

Quote from: Wikipedia
According to a 2009 study by the University of Puerto Rico, nine of every ten Puerto Ricans residing in Puerto Rico do not speak English at an advanced level.

More recently, according to the 2005—2009 Population and Housing Narrative Profile for Puerto Rico, among people at least five years old living in Puerto Rico in 2005—2009 . . . 85 percent reported that they did not speak English "very well."

The 2000 U.S. Census reported that 71.9% of Puerto Rico residents spoke English less than "very well".

Heck, I don't speak English very well either.  :sombrero: