We just got back from a weekend trip to Denver and I couldn't help but notice the varying control cities on signs along I-70 from Hays to Denver. At US-183 and I-70 in Hays, Denver is listed as the control city, but then as you head further west it's usually Limon. Sometimes the city listed is a smaller city closer in vicinity, like WaKeeney, Oakley or Goodland, but on most it's Limon. Same for eastbound I-70, most list Hays as the control city but sometimes it's Salina or some smaller town in between.
I know nothing when it comes to who picks the control city and why, so I just googled it and it brought me to the AASHTO website. There I found this document (http://scote.transportation.org/Documents/CC_PPR.pdf (http://scote.transportation.org/Documents/CC_PPR.pdf)) from 2004 where apparently the state tried to get Goodland designated as a control city and was shot down. But it also looks like these are just guidelines and the state can do whatever it wants in the end? I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly, I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around nearly all the westbound I-70 control signs west of Hays having some po-dunk town in Colorado as the control.
Somewhere during my google search it said Limon was a control because of the junction of so many highways there (US 24, 40, 287, CO-71), but it has less than 2,000 people and not even a hospital. I'd propose that Hays and Colby would serve as better control cities in Kansas. It just doesn't make sense to me that KDOT is signing for a town of less than 2,000 people in another state as far east as Russell (184 miles from the border.) It seems to me if KDOT has any flexibility at all, they should be signing control cities in Kansas as much as possible. It's kind of hard to not look at the area as flyover country when the state's own DOT doesn't even consider it important enough to sign.
I bring this up because I also noticed new BGS being installed along I-70 in various spots, Hays being one. The US-183 exit now has Hays and Stockton as control cities for US-183 instead of Hays and Plainville. Again, why the change, I have no idea, but I was hoping someone out there could shed some light on all of this for me.
Thanks!
Control cities are done the same way AASHTO does everything else–they try to keep all the states on the same page, but it's up to the states to police themselves against AASHTO policy since it has no power to do so itself. US routes are the same way; most of US 377 in Oklahoma was outright rejected by AASHTO in various forms a total of six times, but ODOT went ahead and signed it anyway.
I think really if any change is to be made the control cities should be restricted to Denver and Topeka. The way I see it, the purpose of control cities is to give the traveler an idea of where the road is headed to. That goal can only be met if the majority of travelers have heard of that location. Most people will not be familiar with Hays, WaKeeney, Oakley, Goodland, Colby, or Limon, and may well be unable to correctly guess which of those are in Colorado and which are in Kansas. (The only reason I have ever heard of Limon is because it is a control city.) If used at all, I feel they should be used only alongside the more major city (like WaKeeney/Denver, Limon/Denver, Hays/Topeka, Salina/Topeka, etc.) This is how Oklahoma handles control cities and it works well–I-35 SB from OKC is Dallas, not Purcell, Pauls Valley, or Ardmore; I-40 WB is Amarillo, not El Reno, Weatherford, Clinton, Elk City, or Sayre, I-44 WB is Lawton, not Chickasha, I-44 EB from Tulsa is Joplin, not Miami.
This is the same situation as I-80 in PA. Major interchanges should use Denver/Topeka; minor interchanges should use the next decent -sized city each way.
Yes, I certainly see your point. I just think it ought to be all or nothing. Why sign an interchange one time for WaKeeney/Oakley and then 5 miles down the road it's Hays/Limon, or Salina/Denver? And it's not just control cities but distance signs as well. Nearly all of them west of Russell list the distance to Limon. Why? Who cares? Wouldn't the mileage to Denver be much more usable? Once you get back in Kansas, the distance signs on eastbound 70 make much more sense to me... Hays, Salina and Topeka.
Even more shocking to me was driving around Denver and seeing them plaster Limon as a control city for NB 225 (coming from SB 25 to NB 225.) Even as you approach I-70 from I-225, Limon is the only city mentioned. It seems to me if you're driving around Denver and trying to go east on I-70, Topeka or Kansas City would make more sense. Even on the Kansas Turnpike Denver is listed on BGSs for I-70 westbound.
Some signs in Tulsa point to Joplin/Claremore for EB I-44.
Web searching does little good in this particular case because KDOT doesn't put its control city guidance on the Web. (It should!) I have seen it, however, and here are the basic rules:
* Interstate control cities are as laid down by AASHTO--in the case of I-70 that means Denver, Hays, Salina, Topeka, Kansas City, and St. Louis.
* On state highways other than Interstates, the following are chosen (in descending order of priority) as control points: (1) county seat within 100 miles; (2) incorporated city within 100 miles having population greater than 1000; (3) major highway route; (4) incorporated city with population less than 1000; and (4) unincorporated community.
Control points have changed over time and KDOT does not systematically update signs to reflect these changes. On I-70 KDOT did a major signing contract in western Kansas around 1999 (KDOT project number 106 K-5927-99), at a time when Limon was still a control city on I-70 in Kansas, and many of these signs are still up. They are being replaced piecemeal in Interstate reconstruction contracts (several of which are either planned or in progress on I-70 in far western Kansas) and in a smaller I-70 signing contract let in 2011 (KDOT project number 106 KA-1892-01). The newer signs use the current control cities as listed above. The mixture of old and new signs explains why direction signs may say "Denver" at one interchange and "Limon" at the next.
In the case of Plainville versus Stockton on US 183, both towns are in Rooks County, which is the next county north of Ellis County, whose seat is Hays. Stockton is the county seat, but Plainville is larger. Current rules therefore dictate the choice of Stockton as the control point for US 183 northbound at I-70, despite the historical use of Plainville. (The version of the control point assignment rules I have seen dates from 2007. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that they were essentially the same in the past, but that KDOT was--until recently--more willing to make exceptions for Plainville and other anomalous control-point choices around the state on the basis of size and traffic importance.)
P.S. "Control city" is a tricky term. The gold standard for determining whether a state considers a particular destination to be a "control city" is its use on a pull-through sign, for which the MUTCD limits forward destinations to just one. The mere fact that a destination appears on a mileage sign is not proof that it is a control city. In western Kansas (where pull-through signs are rare as hen's teeth) the usual rule is to use only I-70 control cities on signs which point to an I-70 on-ramp, and to have an I-70 control city as at least one destination on a mileage sign on I-70 itself.
My dear sympathies for driving on I-70 thru Western Kansas. One of the most boring, dull, uninteresting drives you can have.
I grew up in northwestern Kansas, thirty miles north of I-70. I think it's just fine and dandy, thank you very much. All I'll say on the subject is that Goodland would have been a great choice, and it's surprising it was shot down. Even though Limon is a highway junction town, I would venture that more motorists are familiar with Goodland than Limon.
I think AASHTO made the correct decision in shooting down Goodland as an I-70 control city--it is neither a large town (population is just 4,500) nor a point of route divergence (it has just one other state highway, K-27, which intersects I-70 at a right angle). Limon is a plausible control city purely because it is a point of route divergence (US 24, 40, and 287 all join or leave alignments independent of I-70 in or near the city); its population is under 2,000 and one of the biggest employers in town, if indeed not the biggest, is the Colorado state penitentiary. The least populous Interstate control city in Kansas, Hays, has a population of over 20,000, while Emporia (population 25,000) is not an Interstate control city even though it is a point of route divergence.
Goodland as a control city would have been in the same vein as Sharon, Clarion, Du Bois, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Williamsport, Bloomsburg, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap or The Dalles, Pendleton, La Grande, Baker, Ontario.
Quote from: ShawnP on August 21, 2012, 10:08:09 AM
My dear sympathies for driving on I-70 thru Western Kansas. One of the most boring, dull, uninteresting drives you can have.
I don't mind it, but I much prefer the two-laners out there. I have absolutely no objection to Great Plains; they may not be as over-the-top spectacular as the Rockies, but they have a beauty of their own ... especially during thunderstorm season!
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/blog/photos/111193.jpg)
(this is the closest to I-70 I found offhand... it was near Hill City, KS)
Quote from: kphoger on August 21, 2012, 11:36:05 AM
I grew up in northwestern Kansas, thirty miles north of I-70. I think it's just fine and dandy, thank you very much. All I'll say on the subject is that Goodland would have been a great choice, and it's surprising it was shot down. Even though Limon is a highway junction town, I would venture that more motorists are familiar with Goodland than Limon.
I have probably heard of Goodland, but do not recall it offhand. I'm definitely familiar with Limon, because it is indeed the junction of many routes. Or maybe this is because I spend about equal amounts of time in eastern Colorado as in western Kansas. perhaps Kansas locals know more about Goodland than those like me who are agnostic to which exact state they are in while exploring the Great Plains.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 21, 2012, 01:03:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 21, 2012, 11:36:05 AM
I grew up in northwestern Kansas, thirty miles north of I-70. I think it's just fine and dandy, thank you very much. All I'll say on the subject is that Goodland would have been a great choice, and it's surprising it was shot down. Even though Limon is a highway junction town, I would venture that more motorists are familiar with Goodland than Limon.
I have probably heard of Goodland, but do not recall it offhand. I'm definitely familiar with Limon, because it is indeed the junction of many routes. Or maybe this is because I spend about equal amounts of time in eastern Colorado as in western Kansas
It's simply been my experience that, when telling eastern Kansans where I grew up, the easiest point of reference is Goodland; most people don't know anything else between Hays and Denver, though a few may know Colby, Burlington, and/or Limon. Colby and Goodland are common meal/motel stops for people heading between KC and Denver. I might also mention that Limon is only 90 miles from Denver, yet 250 miles from Hays; the split for Goodland is about 195/145.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 21, 2012, 01:03:19 PM
perhaps Kansas locals know more about Goodland than those like me who are agnostic to which exact state they are in while exploring the Great Plains.
You believe it's impossible for a person to know what state he's in while exploring the Great Plains? Wow, you need an atlas!
Quote from: ShawnP on August 21, 2012, 10:08:09 AM
My dear sympathies for driving on I-70 thru Western Kansas. One of the most boring, dull, uninteresting drives you can have.
Maybe you just didn't know what to look for. I-70 across Kansas provides a view of the transition from midwest to western landscapes. Some years ago, the official Kansas map had major geographic provinces (e.g., High Plains, Smoky Hills) shown as varying background colors on the map, and it was interesting to me to observe the changes and differences between these regions. The last copy of a Kansas map I had showed these on a small map inset, much less valuable. I've crossed western Kansas on several routes (U.S. 40, K-96, U.S. 50, K-156) and they all have their own points of interest. Actually, for viewing the interregional changes, I prefer crossing east from Colby on U.S. 24.
Now, if you want a nearly featureless landscape where it is far more difficult to track geographic transitions because it closely parallels the Platte River, follow I-80 across Nebraska.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 21, 2012, 02:35:38 PM
Now, if you want a nearly featureless landscape where it is far more difficult to track geographic transitions because it closely parallels the Platte River, follow I-80 across Nebraska.
and if you want some interesting scenery, follow US-30 several miles away
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/blog/photos/044086.jpg)
Quote from: kphoger on August 21, 2012, 02:30:19 PM
though a few may know Colby, Burlington, and/or Limon
I know Colby primarily because that is where the last business loop shield in Kansas was located.
QuoteYou believe it's impossible for a person to know what state he's in while exploring the Great Plains? Wow, you need an atlas!
that's not what "agnostic" means in that context :pan:
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 21, 2012, 02:51:09 PM
that's not what "agnostic" means in that context
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 21, 2012, 01:03:19 PM
perhaps Kansas locals know more about Goodland than those like me who are oblivious to which exact state they are in while exploring the Great Plains.
FTFY :pan:
that, again, is not what agnostic means.
while I generally know which state I am in, I don't care. scenery doesn't give a shit about invisible lines on the ground.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 21, 2012, 04:38:46 PM
that, again, is not what agnostic means.
while I generally know which state I am in, I don't care. scenery doesn't give a shit about invisible lines on the ground.
OK. Whatever. Maybe you're simply not religious about what state your in. This is so far off topic, I almost feel like asking
which states in New England use Clearview.
www.dictionary.comag·nos·tic /ægˈnɒstɪk/ Show Spelled[ag-nos-tik]
noun
1. a person who holds that
[the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things] are unknown
and unknowable [. . .]
2. a person who denies or
doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 21, 2012, 12:19:56 PM
I think AASHTO made the correct decision in shooting down Goodland as an I-70 control city--it is neither a large town (population is just 4,500) nor a point of route divergence (it has just one other state highway, K-27, which intersects I-70 at a right angle). Limon is a plausible control city purely because it is a point of route divergence (US 24, 40, and 287 all join or leave alignments independent of I-70 in or near the city); its population is under 2,000 and one of the biggest employers in town, if indeed not the biggest, is the Colorado state penitentiary. The least populous Interstate control city in Kansas, Hays, has a population of over 20,000, while Emporia (population 25,000) is not an Interstate control city even though it is a point of route divergence.
Goodland as a control city would have been in the same vein as Sharon, Clarion, Du Bois, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Williamsport, Bloomsburg, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, Delaware Water Gap or The Dalles, Pendleton, La Grande, Baker, Ontario.
In other words, silliness from the local chamber of commerce, thinking that a control city will lead to more cars turning off the freeway.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 21, 2012, 02:49:31 PM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 21, 2012, 02:35:38 PM
Now, if you want a nearly featureless landscape where it is far more difficult to track geographic transitions because it closely parallels the Platte River, follow I-80 across Nebraska.
and if you want some interesting scenery, follow US-30 several miles away
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/blog/photos/044086.jpg)
I think you just found the one nice spot to take a picture along 30 - helped by the hoarfrost ;-).
plenty more where that came from ...
https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2010/09/08/rocky-mountains-dec-07-part-v/
Just to throw in my two cents on the original topic, in Colorado as you head east from Limon all EB onramps are posted Burlington (the very last town in Colorado but probably twice the size of Limon). Distance signs, however, frequently show Salina as the furthest destination. Once you cross into Kansas, the furthest destination on distance signs becomes Hays. References to Salina don't show up in Kansas for quite a distance. I think you have to be east of Salina to see the first Kansas City reference.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 21, 2012, 06:59:06 PM
plenty more where that came from ...
https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2010/09/08/rocky-mountains-dec-07-part-v/
Nice picture blog. FWIW, it looks like that dirt road north of I-90 is now a two-lane paved road.
I think the state's reasons for picking a "control" city are reasonable, at least as far as what J N Winkler listed here. BTW, Thank you very much for all of your information, it was very helpful. I especially appreciate the history... it makes the signs in Hays make much more sense.
I think whether or not Goodland qualifies as a control city probably has a lot to do with perspective. Since I'm originally from eastern Kansas (east of I-135), I would have probably said it should not qualify. Now that I live in Hays, I might disagree and say either Colby or Goodland would be okay. Either way, I do firmly think if Goodland doesn't qualify then Limon shouldn't either. Yes, it has route divergence, but CO-71 is no different than K-27 in Goodland, coming from nothing and leading to nothing. Yes, US-24 splits and leads to Colorado Springs, but one could say the same thing about US-40 at Oakley (although I will admit 40 doesn't lead to Colorado Springs directly.) US-287 and 40 lead to nowhere and all three US routes join I-70 which Colorado doesn't even bother to co-sign them. And it's proximity to Denver certainly makes me think it is not "control worthy." I guess it just comes down to what AASHTO takes into consideration, which I guess I don't necessarily agree with.
I guess for me it just comes down to the fact that nothing in Kansas is mentioned at all on EB I-70 in Colorado until Burlington, while Kansas plasters some Colorado town over 150 miles from the border. Trying my best to not sound petty here, but if CDOT doesn't want to play nice on EB 70, then why should Kansas? If Colorado were to do the same as Kansas, then from what I can tell, they should be referencing Hays east of Limon, not Burlington.
If I were picking control cities, my first consideration would be what destinations are drivers most likely to be heading to or from and also what cities are regional economic drivers. On that basis alone I would never consider Limon. (I doubt Limon is a final destination for most I-70 travelers.) I think if those are the primary considerations, then cities like Hays and Colby make more sense as control cities since they are economic drivers for their region. It probably also makes a difference who your audience is... is it local regional drivers who are just driving in Kansas or is it cross country travelers. There's no right answer I guess, but interesting to think about.
Many years ago when I was interning for a state representative, one of his "primary tasks" was getting the BGS on I-135 at McPherson changed from Marion to Hillsboro. His beef was that Hillsboro was the "economic driver" of the county and should have precedence over Marion. Of course, he was from Hillsboro, so... :biggrin: Anyway, he claimed he had several of the business people in town complain because they couldn't direct their customers to town off of I-135 easily. Now of course, I-135 has individual signs for Hillsboro, although the "official" control cities are still McPherson and Marion. I've noticed the same on I-70 past Salina with individual distance signs for Manhattan, even though Manhattan is many miles to the north of the mainline interstate. I'm guessing those had some political involvement as well.
Ok, I've droned on enough. Thanks for the info.
Quote from: kphoger on August 21, 2012, 07:38:48 PM
Nice picture blog. FWIW, it looks like that dirt road north of I-90 is now a two-lane paved road.
yes, I believe that is correct. those photos were from Dec '07
Quote from: situveux1 on August 21, 2012, 07:53:53 PM
drone
Having grown up in Atwood, I was at first hesitant to suggest that Colby would be a better pick than Goodland, figuring it was probably personal bias since that was "
my exit". But your mentioning it as an economic driver in the area is true, and I hadn't thought of that. It certainly sees plenty of exiting traffic–more than Goodland. My two top picks for the stretch between Hays and Denver would be Colby or Burlington. In fact, since Burlington rivals Colby for roadside amenities, and has a US route running through it rather than a state route, maybe Burlington would be the best choice.
As a side note.....
Man, those towns look small on Google Maps at the zoom level I'm on. They sure didn't seem that small when I lived there. Is Oakley really that small? I can barely even tell where Rexford is! Oh, how things change when you move to an urban environment.
Quote from: situveux1 on August 21, 2012, 07:53:53 PM
I guess for me it just comes down to the fact that nothing in Kansas is mentioned at all on EB I-70 in Colorado until Burlington, while Kansas plasters some Colorado town over 150 miles from the border. Trying my best to not sound petty here, but if CDOT doesn't want to play nice on EB 70, then why should Kansas? If Colorado were to do the same as Kansas, then from what I can tell, they should be referencing Hays east of Limon, not Burlington.
To clarify, distance signs on I-70 in eastern Colorado do show Salina.
Onramp destination is basically just Burlington.
Keep in mind none of the onramps between Limon and Burlington are from major highways where traffic is making long-distance decisions. Burlington works just fine for the rancher heading east from Arriba toward Flagler. I don't think there's any anti-Kansas agenda there. Without going to GSV, I would guess the onramp from U.S. 385 at Burlington probably points toward Goodland. EDIT: As I was corrected on this below, onramps in eastern Colorado on I-70 don't give destinations, only route directions.
Yes, you are right, after Limon the distance signs do have Salina listed, I forgot that. But when I looked at GSV there are simply no directionals with a city listed at either Burlington exit. I'm sure there's probably not a anti-KS bias, but if Burlington is good enough for the eastern Colorado rancher, then Goodland should be good enough for the western Kansas farmer. I know, I know, let it go... :)
If Colorado were following Kansas practice in signing control cities on I-70, any new ramp direction signs would uniformly use Hays and Denver in the eastbound and westbound directions respectively, and the mileage signs would give distances to other cities, the only city consistently appearing on every mileage sign being the next control city in that direction. (It is similar to how every sign on the westbound Turnpike between Kansas City and Topeka always gives the distance to Topeka, but other destinations vary, with the distance to Denver being listed on at least one sign, but not all of them.)
After checking various I-70 interchanges on both sides of the state line, I suspect the signing on Colorado I-70 is somewhat out of date (with TABOR, CDOT does not have a whole lot of money to spare on sign replacements) and parsimonious, quite aside from any state-by-state differences in standards that may apply. On the Colorado side, I checked a few state highway interchanges with I-70 and did not find any that actually had ramp direction signs, unlike K-27 in Goodland and I-70 exit 16 (which Google Maps identifies--correctly or not--as US 24 Business). Even a minor county road like the one at Edson (Exit 27) has at least one.
In Colorado, ramp direction signs are absent at US 385 (Burlington), SH 59 (Seibert), and US 24-40-287 (Limon--all three exits), even though the Limon and Burlington exits have motel and truck-stop development similar to that found in Goodland.
As High Plains Traveler says, I don't think there is any anti-Kansas bias at work here; the real story here is that Colorado under-signs ramp approaches in comparison to Kansas, so I-70 control cities are hidden except on distance signs where they are mixed up with purely local destinations. The signing at all of the interchanges I examined in eastern Colorado was restricted to I-70 trailblazer assemblies on pipework posts; in contradistinction, the Kansas interchanges all had large-format extruded aluminum ramp direction signs (mounted on slip bases) with a shield, a cardinal direction word, a control city, and an arrow. Minimum provision at really minor interchanges on the Kansas side is a large-format direction sign giving destinations only (no shields or cardinal direction words), mounted on slip bases, with I-70 trailblazer assemblies nearby.
Edit: I blame TABOR for this difference in provision. Median household income is in the same range ($30,000 to $35,000) on either side of the state line, and the numbers are actually a little better in Kit Carson County (Colorado) than they are in Sherman County (Kansas). The presence or absence of ramp direction signs does not seem to correlate to traffic volume, lane count, or other cross-sectional features on any of the I-70 crossroads I examined. On the other hand, a typical KDOT ramp direction sign is 75 SF and so (assuming a nominal cost of $20 per SF, which I think is probably a bit on the low side for microprismatic sheeting) probably costs just under $2000 including posts and installation.
TABOR has supposedly been "de-Bruced" now, but there is still a strong incentive not to spend $2000 per ramp direction sign in the absence of brick-on-head evidence that they are absolutely necessary. There is a convenience factor for CDOT as well, since ramp signing at I-70 interchanges is completely taken care of by proposal-only regionwide mass sign replacements (their preferred method) if there are no large signs or designable small guide signs to be taken into account.
Quote from: kphoger on August 21, 2012, 05:05:30 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 21, 2012, 04:38:46 PM
that, again, is not what agnostic means.
while I generally know which state I am in, I don't care. scenery doesn't give a shit about invisible lines on the ground.
OK. Whatever. Maybe you're simply not religious about what state your in. This is so far off topic, I almost feel like asking which states in New England use Clearview.
www.dictionary.com
ag·nos·tic /ægˈnɒstɪk/ Show Spelled[ag-nos-tik]
noun
1. a person who holds that [the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things] are unknown and unknowable [. . .]
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
It is rather common, especially in the tech industry, to use "agnostic" to mean "indifferent to the particulars of X because it is equally supported or otherwise makes no difference what the particular is". One might say a widget is "protocol-agnostic" because it supports all common protocols, so which one you use with the widget does not matter, or because the widget is built in such a way that the protocol is simply irrelevant for whatever is going on and all are equally usable, perhaps because the widget actually just acts as a filter and makes no use of the protocol itself. (I could not find any entry in the Jargon File, the go-to dictionary for this sort of thing, to substantiate this, but I have seen its usage enough to contend that your dictionary entry is incomplete as it stands.)
Either Goodland or Colby would be better in Kansas than Limon. Colby, I think, is the larger town. But Kansans who live in the Wichita TV market will be more familiar offhand with Goodland because it has a weather station. Basically, whatever Goodland gets, especially in the winter, will hit other parts of the state within a few hours. And Goodland usually gets the worst of it.
Were it me, I'd go with these cities:
E to W: Topeka, Salina, Hays, Goodland, Denver.
W to E: Goodland, Hays, Salina, Topeka, Kansas City.
My picks:
(Eastbound from Denver) Burlington / Hays, KS / Salina / Topeka / Kansas City
(Westbound from Kansas City) Topeka / Salina / Hays / Burlington, CO / Denver
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 21, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
If Colorado were following Kansas practice in signing control cities on I-70, any new ramp direction signs would uniformly use Hays and Denver in the eastbound and westbound directions respectively, and the mileage signs would give distances to other cities, the only city consistently appearing on every mileage sign being the next control city in that direction. (It is similar to how every sign on the westbound Turnpike between Kansas City and Topeka always gives the distance to Topeka, but other destinations vary, with the distance to Denver being listed on at least one sign, but not all of them.)
After checking various I-70 interchanges on both sides of the state line, I suspect the signing on Colorado I-70 is somewhat out of date (with TABOR, CDOT does not have a whole lot of money to spare on sign replacements) and parsimonious, quite aside from any state-by-state differences in standards that may apply. On the Colorado side, I checked a few state highway interchanges with I-70 and did not find any that actually had ramp direction signs, unlike K-27 in Goodland and I-70 exit 16 (which Google Maps identifies--correctly or not--as US 24 Business). Even a minor county road like the one at Edson (Exit 27) has at least one.
In Colorado, ramp direction signs are absent at US 385 (Burlington), SH 59 (Seibert), and US 24-40-287 (Limon--all three exits), even though the Limon and Burlington exits have motel and truck-stop development similar to that found in Goodland.
As High Plains Traveler says, I don't think there is any anti-Kansas bias at work here; the real story here is that Colorado under-signs ramp approaches in comparison to Kansas, so I-70 control cities are hidden except on distance signs where they are mixed up with purely local destinations. The signing at all of the interchanges I examined in eastern Colorado was restricted to I-70 trailblazer assemblies on pipework posts; in contradistinction, the Kansas interchanges all had large-format extruded aluminum ramp direction signs (mounted on slip bases) with a shield, a cardinal direction word, a control city, and an arrow. Minimum provision at really minor interchanges on the Kansas side is a large-format direction sign giving destinations only (no shields or cardinal direction words), mounted on slip bases, with I-70 trailblazer assemblies nearby.
Edit: I blame TABOR for this difference in provision. Median household income is in the same range ($30,000 to $35,000) on either side of the state line, and the numbers are actually a little better in Kit Carson County (Colorado) than they are in Sherman County (Kansas). The presence or absence of ramp direction signs does not seem to correlate to traffic volume, lane count, or other cross-sectional features on any of the I-70 crossroads I examined. On the other hand, a typical KDOT ramp direction sign is 75 SF and so (assuming a nominal cost of $20 per SF, which I think is probably a bit on the low side for microprismatic sheeting) probably costs just under $2000 including posts and installation.
TABOR has supposedly been "de-Bruced" now, but there is still a strong incentive not to spend $2000 per ramp direction sign in the absence of brick-on-head evidence that they are absolutely necessary. There is a convenience factor for CDOT as well, since ramp signing at I-70 interchanges is completely taken care of by proposal-only regionwide mass sign replacements (their preferred method) if there are no large signs or designable small guide signs to be taken into account.
I'm going to have to find out who is putting the false memories into my head. I was surprised to look at GSV and note the total lack of destination signs at I-70 onramps in eastern Colorado, particularly the exit at Arriba where the rest area I've used a few times serves both directions of traffic.
As far as historical signage, I do remember the Turnpike distance signage once having frequent Denver references, and the Topeka exits indicating Denver along with Topeka. Denver has pretty much been replaced with Salina, except for the one distance sign Jonathan mentions. Also, once upon a time, there was a distance sign with Limon on it about 440 miles out; maybe near Manhattan? (If one could do a comparison of destination city populations to distance ratios, this would have been a contender). I was a little less clear on the transition of onramp destination signs, whether the signage in western Kansas was evolving toward Denver or toward Limon. Apparently it's the former. Either way, Kansas signage is superior. And, I'd love to get in a discussion of Colorado's TABOR and how it affects highway funding and general state governance, but unfortunately that's a Colorado topic. (Doug Bruce, with his felony conviction for tax evasion through his bogus non-profit, has largely "De-Bruced" himself, except to the true believers).
Finally, since Limon is germane to the I-70 control city discussion, I have long wondered what a more appropriate EB I-70 control city from Denver would be. Eastbound, Limon is an important highway divergence point, with U.S. 287 heading south. As inappropriate as Burlington would look if used at the I-25/70 interchange, it would look even stranger if used, as Limon is now, on E-470 and I-225. All Burlington represents is the last Colorado town before entering Kansas. Nothing in western Kansas is big enough to justify using a Kansas destination from Denver, either. And, on the westbound side, maybe I have a bias because the U.S. 24 divergence from westbound I-70 is an exit I have used many times, but I think that divergence makes Limon a viable control point in Kansas despite its tiny size. At least, west of Hays.
Heck, let's just compromise and use WaKeeney between Denver and Topeka both ways!
A great response from KDOT Dist. 3 Public Affairs Manager to my email questions that I thought I'd share. It looks like Limon signs will eventually become extinct in Kansas.
QuoteI would like to explain the rhyme and reasoning behind the signing issues you encountered while on your most recent trip to Denver. I apologize, up front, as the language I am going to provide in the email may seem very technical and perhaps frustrating — as a response. So, that being said, I encourage you to call our KDOT state signing engineer Eric Nichol (785) 296-1244. He is a very nice guy, and a Fort Hays State University alum as well. J
I-70 was built across Kansas in sections, which most of the time they didn't initially connect to each other. As these projects were being built, the destinations were determined by which cities were on that project. As the projects started connecting to one another, there was not a continuity of destinations. This discontinuity of destinations was not only happening in Kansas but across the nation as the interstate system was being completed. Sometime in the 1970's AASHTO (American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials) started looking at ways to establish a continuity of destinations. To do this they requested that states submit requests, with supporting information, as to which cities in their states they wanted as control cities. Initially on I-70 the "approved" control cities for Kansas were Salina, Topeka, and Kansas City and I believe that Colorado had Grand Junction, Denver, and Limon. After this list was established, Kansas started making changes to the destinations when new construction and/or maintenance projects came along. In the early 1990's, Kansas and the City of Hays "applied" to be named as a control city on I-70 and was added to the book in 1993. In the early to mid 2000's KDOT decided to change the destinations for the neighboring states to be the larger and more recognizable cities so Denver became the control city for I-70 WB. Kansas currently is using the control cities of Denver and St. Louis on I-70 and Oklahoma City and Des Moines on I-35. As signing projects are being done the control cities are being changed. As pointed out, some states do not follow the guidelines for the control cities or limit when they show destinations outside of their state.
As for the second question, there should be signs for Hays showing the number of exits. We thought these signs had been posted, so we appreciate that you brought this matter to our attention. We plan to add these signs when we have a future project on I-70 around Hays.
Again, thanks for your concern. I hope you enjoy your new home in Hays.
Safe travels to you and yours.
Kristen Brands
KDOT Public Affairs Manager
District Three
312 South Second Ave.
Norton, Kansas
67654
^I appreciate this posting as it explains a lot and it makes some sense from the Kansas perspective. Is it consistent with relatively recent signage, though? Exiting the turnpike WB at Topeka, the signage which once read Denver now reads Salina. Was this change a decision of KDOT or KTA? Also - why would the official Kansas EB control city for I-70 and the NB control city for I-35 not be Kansas City? It would seem St. Louis and Des Moines would be appropriate Missouri control cities for these routes, but since Kansas City in essence straddles the state line, I don't see significant junctions in Kansas (east or north of I-635) where those other cities would be more appropriate, except maybe I-70/670.
St Louis is used as early as I-435. Apparently Kansas feels that "Kansas City" refers to the Kansas side, so once you enter KCK things generally switch to St Louis. (There are a few random signs pointing to KCMo and using "Kansas City", however.)
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on August 27, 2012, 11:58:57 PMExiting the turnpike WB at Topeka, the signage which once read Denver now reads Salina. Was this change a decision of KDOT or KTA?
I assume you mean this:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Topeka,+KS&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Topeka,+Shawnee,+Kansas&ll=39.031711,-95.584649&spn=0.004192,0.009645&t=m&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=39.031725,-95.584769&panoid=ko_i4dF7QEBFTKOLXkxiaA&cbp=12,274.17,,0,8.55
The decision would have been made by KDOT and KTA jointly. The East Topeka Interchange contract was advertised by KDOT but co-funded by KTA.
QuoteAlso - why would the official Kansas EB control city for I-70 and the NB control city for I-35 not be Kansas City? It would seem St. Louis and Des Moines would be appropriate Missouri control cities for these routes, but since Kansas City in essence straddles the state line, I don't see significant junctions in Kansas (east or north of I-635) where those other cities would be more appropriate, except maybe I-70/670.
St. Louis is used as a control city on an I-70 pull-through just barely on the Kansas side of the state line (in Kansas City, Kansas):
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Topeka,+KS&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Topeka,+Shawnee,+Kansas&ll=39.10969,-94.61967&spn=0.004221,0.009645&t=m&z=17&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=39.10969,-94.61967&panoid=qBb1pGuZFwGzYyiS0s5WPw&cbp=12,37.83,,0,4.14
On I-35 and its child routes, however, the basic KDOT approach is to suppress control cities on pull-throughs. (I think this is followed for the most part on I-70 as well--the sign for which I just provided a link appears to be an exception.)
It doesn't really surprise me that KDOT specifies control cities behind Kansas City for both I-35 and I-70. It is certainly true that drivers leaving Kansas on either Interstate are then immediately in Kansas City, but at that point they have already been within the urbanized portion of the Kansas City metropolitan area for about a dozen miles. In the case of I-70, much of that length has been within a town actually named "Kansas City." A control city on a sign has little value for orientation if a driver is already in the urban area of influence of that control city.
The use of St. Louis and Des Moines also has, I suspect, an additional function: it ensures that KDOT and MoDOT are singing from the same songbook. Control of message loading is much weaker on the Missouri side, so control cities are more likely actually to appear on signs there (e.g., Topeka is used as a control city on SR 152 in Missouri even though the connection to Topeka is possible only by using I-435 and I-70). If the control cities KDOT and MoDOT use match up, then that ensures the same names appear on distance signs on either side of the state line, even if KDOT chooses to omit city names on urban pull-throughs in the interest of simplicity and ease of reading.
I just now dug up the sign design sheets for KDOT project 24-105 K-8248-02, which was a signing project (advertised in late 2008) to move US 24 onto I-70 within I-435. I observed something interesting: if you approach I-70 on I-435, you are offered a choice between Topeka and St. Louis, but if you approach on K-7 (just 3 1/2 miles to the west), the choice is between Topeka and Kansas City.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 28, 2012, 12:47:15 AMApparently Kansas feels that "Kansas City" refers to the Kansas side, so once you enter KCK things generally switch to St Louis. (There are a few random signs pointing to KCMo and using "Kansas City", however.)
I think it is situational. If you see "Kansas City" on a distance sign, then on I-35 at least, and probably also I-70, I think that is the distance to the Kansas City (Missouri) city limits unless KCK is explicitly specified. If you see "Kansas City" on a pull-through, then that refers to the metropolitan area as a whole.
On this distance sign on I-70 eastbound just west of the K-7 interchange, it is clear that Kansas City, Missouri is meant:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Kansas+City,+MO&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Kansas+City,+Jackson,+Missouri&ll=39.099493,-94.869068&spn=0.008443,0.01929&t=m&z=16&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=39.099569,-94.868802&panoid=OLydtHn_XN1js0CJvk6cow&cbp=12,81.05,,0,13.29
(For I-70 in Kansas, I-435 appears to be where distance signing transitions to interchange sequence signing. I think the changeover point is outside I-435 on Kansas I-35 because Olathe has sprawled well southwest of the I-35/I-435 cloverstack.)
I don't think it's all that uncommon to start signing the next control city once you get near the original control city. On I-30 going east Little Rock is signed once you get about 20 miles from Texarkana, and going the other way Dallas becomes signed along with Texarkana.
As an aside, I was a fan of the TV show Jericho (which unfortunately was not shot in western Kansas, but was set there) and always wanted to visit there. Never been farther west than Salina on I-70.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 28, 2012, 01:39:11 AM
(For I-70 in Kansas, I-435 appears to be where distance signing transitions to interchange sequence signing. I think the changeover point is outside I-435 on Kansas I-35 because Olathe has sprawled well southwest of the I-35/I-435 cloverstack.)
That's fairly close. I've found that the change in control city for I-70 and I-35 to be at the first exit before the I-435 beltway (at 110th Street in KCK and 119th Street in Olathe, respectively)
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 28, 2012, 01:39:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 28, 2012, 12:47:15 AMApparently Kansas feels that "Kansas City" refers to the Kansas side, so once you enter KCK things generally switch to St Louis. (There are a few random signs pointing to KCMo and using "Kansas City", however.)
I think it is situational. If you see "Kansas City" on a distance sign, then on I-35 at least, and probably also I-70, I think that is the distance to the Kansas City (Missouri) city limits unless KCK is explicitly specified. If you see "Kansas City" on a pull-through, then that refers to the metropolitan area as a whole.
This is probably true. It always somewhat bothered me that the direction signage for the 78th Street interchange refers to "Kansas City" as the destination for eastbound I-70, since the 435 interchange uses "St Louis" already, and you're already in the boundaries of a perfectly valid destination named Kansas City. Of course it must be assumed that KCMo is meant there, too.
Quote
(For I-70 in Kansas, I-435 appears to be where distance signing transitions to interchange sequence signing. I think the changeover point is outside I-435 on Kansas I-35 because Olathe has sprawled well southwest of the I-35/I-435 cloverstack.)
I want to say it is the newest exit, which is (I believe) Lone Elm Road.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 28, 2012, 07:19:57 PMQuote
(For I-70 in Kansas, I-435 appears to be where distance signing transitions to interchange sequence signing. I think the changeover point is outside I-435 on Kansas I-35 because Olathe has sprawled well southwest of the I-35/I-435 cloverstack.)
I want to say it is the newest exit, which is (I believe) Lone Elm Road.
I believe you are correct. I dug up the plans for the Lone Elm contract (KDOT project number 35-46 K-9014-01) and it has sign panel details for several interchange sequence signs. I have also checked StreetView on I-35 between the last Gardner exit (175th Street) and Lone Elm, and spotted just one distance sign (Olathe 2, Kansas City 20; since 175th Street is Exit 214 and I-35 leaves Kansas at approximately milepost 235, the "Kansas City" in question has to be the one in Missouri).
I posted this question in another thread and sent a PM to J N Winkler, but I have not yet received a reply. J N Winkler said in this thread that the control cities on I-70 between Kansas City and Denver are Kansas City, Topeka, Salina, Hays, and Denver (but not Limon). He also said in another thread that Limon was "dropped" as an AASHTO control city.
I'm just curious when, or if, Limon was removed from the list of AASHTO-approved control cities. I know that Limon has been an AASHTO-approved control city for many decades. As far as I know, the most recent list of AASHTO-approved control cities was published in 2001 in the publication Guide Signs, Part III: List of Control Cities for Use in Guide Signs on Interstate Highways, 4th Edition. That publication lists Limon as a control city. I have searched online for any information regarding Limon being removed from the list of AASHTO-approved control cities, but I cannot find any information about it.
I'm interested in this because if Limon was removed from the list of AASHTO-approved control cities, then that would have implications for signing I-70 between Hays and Denver, would it not? Based on the information in this thread, Kansas has apparently decided to stop using Limon as a control city on westbound I-70 and use Denver as the control city instead. It would be easy enough for Colorado to also use Denver as the control city for westbound I-70 between the Kansas-Colorado border and Denver. As far as I know, Colorado might already do this.
But on eastbound I-70 between Denver and Limon, it would seem to me that Limon would need to remain the control city unless Colorado wanted to use Hays, Salina, or some other city as the control city. On Google Street View, Limon is listed as the control city on eastbound I-70 exit signs at northbound I-25, I-225, and E-470.
So, can anyone clarify whether or not Limon was actually removed from the list of AASHTO-approved control cities, and if so, when did this action occur?
Quote from: minneha on February 15, 2013, 01:05:30 AMI posted this question in another thread and sent a PM to J N Winkler, but I have not yet received a reply. J N Winkler said in this thread that the control cities on I-70 between Kansas City and Denver are Kansas City, Topeka, Salina, Hays, and Denver (but not Limon). He also said in another thread that Limon was "dropped" as an AASHTO control city.
My source for the information regarding I-70 control cities in Kansas is KDOT's
Highway Sign Manual (2007), which itself cites the AASHTO control cities list as a source but omits Limon. (Colorado DOT has a loosely equivalent policy document (http://www.coloradodot.info/library/traffic/traffic-manuals-guidelines/traffic-guidelines-info/colorado_guide_signs_2012.pdf/at_download/file), which unlike the Kansas one is online and accessible for public download. However, it does not list control cities and only refers the reader to the AASHTO list.)
QuoteI'm just curious when, or if, Limon was removed from the list of AASHTO-approved control cities. I know that Limon has been an AASHTO-approved control city for many decades. As far as I know, the most recent list of AASHTO-approved control cities was published in 2001 in the publication Guide Signs, Part III: List of Control Cities for Use in Guide Signs on Interstate Highways, 4th Edition. That publication lists Limon as a control city. I have searched online for any information regarding Limon being removed from the list of AASHTO-approved control cities, but I cannot find any information about it.
My own searches suggest that the 2001 edition of the list is indeed the latest. I do not have a copy of it as published by AASHTO, and have to rely on Paul Wolf's control cities site, which does list Limon. I basically trust him to transcribe the control cities accurately. The possibility I cannot exclude is that AASHTO removed Limon sometime after 2001 in a slip correction which would have been distributed to people who mail-ordered the control city list from the AASHTO online bookstore. Such a revision, if it were indeed issued, would not necessarily be reflected in Wolf's control-cities site.
QuoteI'm interested in this because if Limon was removed from the list of AASHTO-approved control cities, then that would have implications for signing I-70 between Hays and Denver, would it not? Based on the information in this thread, Kansas has apparently decided to stop using Limon as a control city on westbound I-70 and use Denver as the control city instead. It would be easy enough for Colorado to also use Denver as the control city for westbound I-70 between the Kansas-Colorado border and Denver. As far as I know, Colorado might already do this.
The present position, as near as I have been able to establish from the sources available to me--which include Kansas DOT's signing plans for I-70 in western Kansas and Colorado DOT's photologging for I-70 eastbound--is that Kansas now ignores Limon as a control city on I-70 westbound while Colorado ignores Hays as a control city on I-70 eastbound.
However, figuring out which each state DOT considers to be a control city is kind of tricky because the two do not sign I-70 the same way. The gold standard for control-city signing is pull-through signs, and I don't think there are any on I-70 between Limon and Salina with the possible exception of the US 40 split for Sharon Springs.
Kansas DOT uses ramp signs while Colorado DOT uses trailblazers. By Kansas policy, the ramp signs use the next control points encountered along the route (which for Interstates are the AASHTO control cities, or at any rate the ones KDOT chooses to use). Older ramp signs (installed in the 1999 major signing contract) all say "Limon" where they point traffic toward westbound I-70. Newer signs (installed in the 2011 update contract) all say "Denver." Meanwhile, on eastbound I-70 in Colorado, Limon is listed as the final destination (a position usually but not always reserved for control cities) on seven mileage signs between Denver and Limon, at which point final-line signing flips forward to Salina, not Hays.
QuoteBut on eastbound I-70 between Denver and Limon, it would seem to me that Limon would need to remain the control city unless Colorado wanted to use Hays, Salina, or some other city as the control city. On Google Street View, Limon is listed as the control city on eastbound I-70 exit signs at northbound I-25, I-225, and E-470.
To be precise, Limon is used as a ramp destination on northbound I-25 (I have not checked I-225 or E-470), as is Grand Junction, which is the next AASHTO control city west (Denver itself does not count since I-25 at least, and possibly the other two, are considered as being within Denver). But one would also expect Limon to be specified on pull-through signs on I-70 eastbound. The interesting thing is that Colorado doesn't use pull-throughs on I-70 eastbound in urban Denver
at all, even at system interchanges where one would ordinarily expect them to be used.
It sounds to me like a good summary would be...
The AASHTO list of approved control cities may or may not have changed, but the states are free to not use Limon as a control city if they wish–which does seem to the the case at least in Kansas.
It seems as though Limon both is and is not a control city. Maybe the person in charge of determining such things got his PE certification done in Alanland.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 15, 2013, 11:48:13 AM
To be precise, Limon is used as a ramp destination on northbound I-25 (I have not checked I-225 or E-470), as is Grand Junction, which is the next AASHTO control city west (Denver itself does not count since I-25 at least, and possibly the other two, are considered as being within Denver). But one would also expect Limon to be specified on pull-through signs on I-70 eastbound. The interesting thing is that Colorado doesn't use pull-throughs on I-70 eastbound in urban Denver at all, even at system interchanges where one would ordinarily expect them to be used.
On I-25 in Denver, Limon is a control city at E-470, I-225, I-70, and (southbound) at I-270. From the standpoint of Colorado drivers, this probably makes sense because Limon is the first population center of any significance east of Denver, and there is nothing to trump this for a couple of hundred miles into Kansas. Hays is probably an unknown town to many drivers, Salina not much better known, and who is actually going as far as Topeka or Kansas City? Conversely, Kansas traffic on WB I-70 likely have their eyes on Denver, except for the relatively few who are exiting at Limon to go to Colorado Springs.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on February 15, 2013, 08:59:20 PM
From the standpoint of Colorado drivers, this probably makes sense because Limon is the first population center of any significance east of Denver, and there is nothing to trump this for a couple of hundred miles into Kansas. Hays is probably an unknown town to many drivers, Salina not much better known, and who is actually going as far as Topeka or Kansas City? Conversely, Kansas traffic on WB I-70 likely have their eyes on Denver, except for the relatively few who are exiting at Limon to go to Colorado Springs.
On what do you base the supposition that eastbound traffic from Denver isn't likely to be going as far as Topeka yet westbound traffic from Topeka is more likely to be going as far as Denver? With Colorado Springs being such a large area, in fact, I'm starting to see Limon as more reasonable a westbound control city than an eastbound one. I still think Burlington would do for an eastbound control city, as pretty much anyone driving farther east than Limon is probably already familiar with it.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 15, 2013, 11:48:13 AMMy source for the information regarding I-70 control cities in Kansas is KDOT's Highway Sign Manual (2007), which itself cites the AASHTO control cities list as a source but omits Limon.
Thanks for the information and reply. It seems that Limon is still used as a control city for eastbound I-70 between Denver and Limon. I'm basing this on the mileage signs that you referred to and the ramp destination signs, plus the fact that Limon is still presumably listed as a control city in the most recent AASHTO list of control cities. AASHTO has a separate list of control cities for eastbound I-70 than it does for westbound I-70. If Colorado follows Kansas' practice of using Denver as the control city for westbound I-70, then Limon could be removed from the list of control cities for westbound I-70.
Quote from: kphoger on February 16, 2013, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on February 15, 2013, 08:59:20 PM
From the standpoint of Colorado drivers, this probably makes sense because Limon is the first population center of any significance east of Denver, and there is nothing to trump this for a couple of hundred miles into Kansas. Hays is probably an unknown town to many drivers, Salina not much better known, and who is actually going as far as Topeka or Kansas City? Conversely, Kansas traffic on WB I-70 likely have their eyes on Denver, except for the relatively few who are exiting at Limon to go to Colorado Springs.
On what do you base the supposition that eastbound traffic from Denver isn't likely to be going as far as Topeka yet westbound traffic from Topeka is more likely to be going as far as Denver? With Colorado Springs being such a large area, in fact, I'm starting to see Limon as more reasonable a westbound control city than an eastbound one. I still think Burlington would do for an eastbound control city, as pretty much anyone driving farther east than Limon is probably already familiar with it.
You'd be surprised at how many going east from Denver take I-135 down to Wichita/OKC/DFW Metroplex. After all, (sorry Kansas City) we Denverites utilize I-76/I-80 to go to Chicago, and if we don't like using US287, we'll swallow hard and pay the KTA toll south of Wichita.
Quote from: kphoger on February 16, 2013, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on February 15, 2013, 08:59:20 PM
From the standpoint of Colorado drivers, this probably makes sense because Limon is the first population center of any significance east of Denver, and there is nothing to trump this for a couple of hundred miles into Kansas. Hays is probably an unknown town to many drivers, Salina not much better known, and who is actually going as far as Topeka or Kansas City? Conversely, Kansas traffic on WB I-70 likely have their eyes on Denver, except for the relatively few who are exiting at Limon to go to Colorado Springs.
On what do you base the supposition that eastbound traffic from Denver isn't likely to be going as far as Topeka yet westbound traffic from Topeka is more likely to be going as far as Denver? With Colorado Springs being such a large area, in fact, I'm starting to see Limon as more reasonable a westbound control city than an eastbound one. I still think Burlington would do for an eastbound control city, as pretty much anyone driving farther east than Limon is probably already familiar with it.
In large part, I'm commenting as someone who doesn't really agree with using cities 400 miles or more away as control cities. I think of the I-215 and I-80 interchange near Salt Lake City that offers me Reno and Cheyenne. Really? Nothing closer?
However, I also don't like to see a very small town, whose only claim to prominence is a moderately significant junction and that has a much larger metropolitan area an hour west of it, used. Maybe I-70 from Denver to Salina is a stretch of highway that warrants two control cities in both directions, one near and one far. (Note: this wouldn't work in metro Denver, since the I-25 exits that list Limon - except at I-70 -also usually list Aurora). This concept would affect Kansas more than Colorado, unless Colorado can be convinced to put control cities on its eastern I-70 interchanges like they have on I-25 in southern Colorado.
I've driven all of I-70 in Colorado and Kansas, and so I am familiar with the small cities and distances involved.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on February 17, 2013, 11:05:56 AM
Maybe I-70 from Denver to Salina is a stretch of highway that warrants two control cities in both directions, one near and one far.
I wholeheartedly agree with using two control cities–and I'd love to see more of it pretty much everywhere. OTOH, who in eastern Kansas doesn't know that Denver is to the west, and that their possible intermediate destination would lie in the same direction? and who in eastern Colorado doesn't know that Kansas City is to the east, and that their possible intermediate destination would lie in the same direction? Very, very few, I'm sure.
To put a concrete example out there.....a person driving from Denver to Oklahoma City for the first time would be no more confused by seeing "Kansas City" on a guide sign than by seeing "Limon" on a guide sign–let alone "Burlington", "Salina", or any other intermediate place. Yes, he or she
might have an idea that Salina is where to turn south, or
might be familiar with Limon for who knows what reason, but it's common knowledge that Kansas and Kansas City lie to the east. And, if the person has looked at a map of their route at all, it would be really hard to completely miss the fact that I-70 is headed straight for Kansas City.
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2013, 04:02:09 PM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on February 17, 2013, 11:05:56 AM
Maybe I-70 from Denver to Salina is a stretch of highway that warrants two control cities in both directions, one near and one far.
I wholeheartedly agree with using two control cities–and I'd love to see more of it pretty much everywhere. OTOH, who in eastern Kansas doesn't know that Denver is to the west, and that their possible intermediate destination would lie in the same direction? and who in eastern Colorado doesn't know that Kansas City is to the east, and that their possible intermediate destination would lie in the same direction? Very, very few, I'm sure.
To put a concrete example out there.....a person driving from Denver to Oklahoma City for the first time would be no more confused by seeing "Kansas City" on a guide sign than by seeing "Limon" on a guide sign–let alone "Burlington", "Salina", or any other intermediate place. Yes, he or she might have an idea that Salina is where to turn south, or might be familiar with Limon for who knows what reason, but it's common knowledge that Kansas and Kansas City lie to the east. And, if the person has looked at a map of their route at all, it would be really hard to completely miss the fact that I-70 is headed straight for Kansas City.
An almost perfect analogy - and I know this is outside the geographic coverage of this particular board - is I-25 from Pueblo to Santa Fe. Southbound, consistent with Colorado's use of Limon from Denver, the last pullthrough sign on I-25, in Pueblo, reads Walsenburg. From then on, the only "control" indications are what are listed on mileage signs or at the onramps to I-25 that have destinations. Southbound, Walsenburg then Trinidad are featured on both kinds of signs. There are no distance signs from Pueblo to Trinidad that show anything past Raton. Northbound from Santa Fe, the last pullthrough shows Las Vegas, and then similarly New Mexico seems to use the next significant town as the first destination on distance signs (not sure whether New Mexico onramp signage has destinations through here). In Colorado, though, the onramp signage skips Walsenburg and instead indicates Pueblo. So, by analogy, Walsenburg is I-25's version of Limon.
You could therefore make the same argument you made about Salina or Kansas City about I-25, and say that the control from Pueblo should be Santa Fe or Albuquerque. While I would like to see more long-distance signage in Colorado along I-25 between here and the New Mexico border (mileages to Santa Fe and Albuquerque), I don't think those should be used as actual control cities. And to aid in comparison of distance, Albuquerque is 325 miles south of Pueblo, while Salina is about 435 miles from Denver.
Almost perfect analogy Part II:
I'm dealing with plans for the upcoming reconstruction on I-76 east of Brush. In Brush the eastbound city used on the entrance ramps is Sterling, but the bottom line on the existing distance signs is Julesburg. Sterling is the control city so should normally be the bottom line, but there's a lack of names to fill up three lines, so it ends up being Atwood / Sterling / Julesburg.
In this situation it might be logical for the bottom line to jump to the next available control city (North Platte, so you would have 2 control cities listed) but in the interest of staying with precedent I'm using Julesburg. We'll see what happens when I turn the sign plans into CDOT for review.
Quote from: Milepost61 on March 01, 2013, 11:45:40 PM
Almost perfect analogy Part II:
I'm dealing with plans for the upcoming reconstruction on I-76 east of Brush. In Brush the eastbound city used on the entrance ramps is Sterling, but the bottom line on the existing distance signs is Julesburg. Sterling is the control city so should normally be the bottom line, but there's a lack of names to fill up three lines, so it ends up being Atwood / Sterling / Julesburg.
In this situation it might be logical for the bottom line to jump to the next available control city (North Platte, so you would have 2 control cities listed) but in the interest of staying with precedent I'm using Julesburg. We'll see what happens when I turn the sign plans into CDOT for review.
Random question–as a sign designer, how do you know what mileage to put on the sign? Is there a CDOT database, or do you just use good ol' Google Maps?
Another random question... How exactly does one get a job as a sign designer? Sounds like a dream job...
^ With either lots of luck. I get the impression that the designers normally do more than just signs - depending on the employer, they may also due traffic signal plans (for bidding, not the planning of where signals go/warrant analysis) or any other roadway plan sheet.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 02, 2013, 03:02:26 AM
Random question–as a sign designer, how do you know what mileage to put on the sign? Is there a CDOT database, or do you just use good ol' Google Maps?
Normally you can just subtract the exit numbers and add any additional distance along the cross road (the mileage shown is supposed the distance into the town, not just to the exit).
Quote from: situveux1 on March 02, 2013, 03:20:02 PM
Another random question... How exactly does one get a job as a sign designer? Sounds like a dream job...
Short answer, be a civil engineer and specialize in traffic engineering. In my case I'm a roadway civil engineer that does sign plans on a limited basis.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 02, 2013, 11:33:54 PMI get the impression that the designers normally do more than just signs - depending on the employer, they may also do traffic signal plans (for bidding, not the planning of where signals go/warrant analysis) or any other roadway plan sheet.
Traffic design is its own functional discipline, but in addition to signing and signals, it can also include lighting, guardrail, ITS, etc. Not all of a traffic designer's work product goes into construction plans either. Depending on how the sign procurement process is structured in a given state DOT, it can also include producing work orders showing each sign at a much higher level of detail (and with more thorough dimensioning) than on the plan sheet.
I don't think I have ever met a traffic designer who did nothing but signs all day long, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of that level of specialization in, e.g., a dedicated sign design unit such as some state DOTs (e.g., MoDOT) have.
I would imagine that a traffic designer who was interested in sign design from a hobby perspective, not just as a way to earn income, would get more satisfaction from being able to work with tools which make it simple to produce pattern-accurate sign layouts, sign panel details, and sign elevation sheets. State DOTs vary widely in the types of signing sheets they require to be included in signing plans and also in the tools they specify or make available for this purpose. The state DOTs that produce the majority of the signing sheets I work with conform to a three-part model--sign layout sheets, sign panel detail sheets, and sign elevation sheets for overhead signs only--but this is far from universal. Some state DOTs produce sign layout sheets only, like Louisiana DOTD and Wyoming DOT; others, like Colorado DOT, produce just sign layouts and sign elevations (what CDOT calls "sign cross-sections"). A few state DOTs like clean signing sheets and go so far as to specify their preferred design packages (Arizona DOT accepts only
SignCAD, while others have standardized on
GuidSIGN), while others (Montana, for example) have never produced pattern-accurate details for designable signs. Plus, as time goes on, state DOTs change how they structure the signing sheets in their plans sets. Ten years ago, Caltrans, KyTC, and NCDOT never used to include sign panel detail sheets in their plans sets--now they routinely do.
A liking for sausage doesn't mean you would be happily employed as a butcher.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 03, 2013, 12:55:02 AM
I don't think I have ever met a traffic designer who did nothing but signs all day long, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of that level of specialization in, e.g., a dedicated sign design unit such as some state DOTs (e.g., MoDOT) have.
I won't out him, but we have someone here from NYSDOT who pretty much only does sign design.
Quote
A liking for sausage doesn't mean you would be happily employed as a butcher.
There are hundreds of people signed up for this forum who have a liking for sausage :D
Quote from: Milepost61 on March 03, 2013, 12:08:14 AM
Short answer, be a civil engineer and specialize in traffic engineering. In my case I'm a roadway civil engineer that does sign plans on a limited basis.
Specialization in college does not always equal employment in the same area in a DOT. You could specialize in Traffic Engineering in college, but get passed over for a traffic job in a DOT and end up as a construction or materials inspector instead - hence the luck component.
Also remember that the one who actually does the sign design does not always get to decide what goes on the sign, or how the sign is arranged. There are always the statewide standards that usually must be followed. Then there can be the higher ups that will sometimes seem to think just having a PE license and a few years of experience means they can never be wrong - you could be double checking a signing plan that has a state route shield for a US route, but be unable to do anything about it without getting severely disciplined.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 03, 2013, 02:26:55 PM
Then there can be the higher ups that will sometimes seem to think just having a PE license and a few years of experience means they can never be wrong - you could be double checking a signing plan that has a state route shield for a US route, but be unable to do anything about it without getting severely disciplined.
Putting petty people like that in management seldom goes well for the organization that does it, no matter what their product is.
There has been a lot of standardization in control city signs in western Kansas since this thread was first started. Kansas has been transitioning from using Limon to using Denver as the westbound control city on I-70 west of Hays. As part of that process, they have been replacing Limon signs with Denver signs. This includes both the on-ramp signs and the distance signs. All of the distance signs that had Limon in the terminal position have been removed. In addition, all of the signs that used an "in-between" city such as Oakley or WaKeeney have been removed and replaced with the standard control cities, such as Denver or Hays.
On westbound I-70, Hays is the westbound control city from I-135 to the Toulon Avenue exit. All of the on-ramp signs from I-135 to the Toulon Avenue exit use Hays as the control city. At the Commerce Parkway exit, Denver becomes the westbound control city and remains so until the Colorado border.
On eastbound I-70, Hays is the eastbound control city from the Colorado border to the Yocemento Avenue exit. All of the on-ramp signs from the Colorado border to the Yocemento Avenue exit use Hays as the control city. At the US-183 Bypass exit, Salina becomes the eastbound control city and remains so until the Halstead Road exit. All of the on-ramp signs from the US-183 Bypass exit to the Halstead Road exit use Salina as the control city. At the I-135 exit, Topeka becomes the eastbound control city.
As of September 2023, there were only two Limon on-ramp signs remaining in Kansas, both of which appear to be remnants that haven't been replaced yet. One is a small approach sign just south of the Park exit and one is a small approach sign just south of the Grainfield east exit. Technically these could be considered control city signs, but the Big Green Signs and the north approach signs at these same exits use Denver, so it's pretty clear that Denver is the control city here and that these Limon signs are just old signs that haven't been replaced yet. Other than those two Limon signs, all of the other on-ramp signs from the Commerce Parkway exit to the Colorado border use Denver as the control city.
When it comes to distance signs, Hays is in the terminal position on all of the distance signs on westbound I-70 from I-135 to Hays. Just west of US-183 Bypass, Denver begins to be signed in the terminal position on distance signs. All of the distance signs from US-183 Bypass to the Colorado border have Denver in the terminal position.
Limon is only listed on three distance signs on I-70 between I-135 and the Colorado border and it is not listed in the terminal position on any of those signs. The furthest east that Limon is signed on a distance sign in Kansas is about four miles east of WaKeeney.
The eastbound distance signs from the Colorado border to Hays have Hays in the terminal position, except for two signs which have Topeka in the terminal position. From Hays to Salina, all of the distance signs have Salina in the terminal position.
Distance signs on westbound I-70 between I-135 and the Colorado border, as of September 2023:
K-156 23
Russell 64
Hays 89
Jct K-14 2
Russell 40
Hays 66
Wilson 14
Russell 35
Hays 58
Dorrance 7
Russell 22
Hays 46
Hays 29
Gorham 10
Victoria 17
Hays 25
Hays 9
Ellis 12
WaKeeney 30
Denver 326
K-147 9
WaKeeney 18
Denver 315
WaKeeney 8
Oakley 61
Denver 304
Limon 224
Denver 303
Collyer 12
Oakley 53
Denver 296
Park 16
Oakley 41
Denver 284
Grainfield 5
Oakley 26
Denver 280
Grinnell 8
Oakley 20
Denver 263
Oakley 12
Colby 34
Denver 255
US-83 5
Goodland 56
Denver 244
Colby 16
Goodland 51
Denver 239
Levant 7
Goodland 34
Denver 223
Denver 218
Brewster 8
Goodland 26
Denver 215
K-253 9
Goodland 16
Denver 205
Goodland 7
Denver 197
Kanorado 14
Limon 98
Denver 186
Burlington 13
Limon 90
Denver 176
Distance signs on eastbound I-70 from the Colorado border to I-135, as of September 2023:
Goodland 15
Colby 52
Hays 157
Colby 34
Oakley 56
Hays 139
Brewster 8
Colby 29
Hays 131
Colby 16
Oakley 39
Hays 122
Colby 7
Oakley 29
Hays 112
Hays 110
Salina 205
Topeka 305
Oakley 18
WaKeeney 71
Hays 103
US-40 5
WaKeeney 56
Hays 88
Grinnell 10
WaKeeney 51
Hays 83
Grainfield 8
WaKeeney 40
Hays 76
Park 3
WaKeeney 32
Hays 61
Quinter 8
WaKeeney 28
Hays 60
WaKeeney 12
Ellis 30
Hays 43
K-147 7
Hays 30
Hays 27
Salina 120
Topeka 221
Ellis 10
Hays 23
Hays 16
Victoria 10
Russell 26
Salina 93
Gorham 7
Russell 17
Salina 83
K-232 22
K-14 30
Salina 66
K-14 12
K-156 17
Salina 48
Jct K-156 3
Salina 32
Jct I-135 25
Salina 29
It should be Denver from Hays west. Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.
PennDOT does the same for Carlisle over Harrisburg on I-81 North of Chambersburg. If you sign a city that lies before a much larger one, then why not just use the larger one.
EB out of Denver, Limon is okay as it's a split of routes, but WB it serves no point of reference unless you're going to Pikes Peak, which I'm sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
It should be Denver from Hays west. Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.
Did you even read |minneha|'s posts? Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
WB it serves no point of reference unless you're going to Pikes Peak, which I'm sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.
Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2023, 09:37:23 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
It should be Denver from Hays west. Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.
Did you even read |minneha|'s posts? Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
WB it serves no point of reference unless you're going to Pikes Peak, which I'm sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.
Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?
It's the same area. Pikes Peak, Colorado Springs. It's pretty obvious to what I meant.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 26, 2023, 09:44:50 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2023, 09:37:23 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
It should be Denver from Hays west. Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.
Did you even read |minneha|'s posts? Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
WB it serves no point of reference unless you're going to Pikes Peak, which I'm sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.
Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?
It's the same area. Pikes Peak, Colorado Springs. It's pretty obvious to what I meant.
But what
kphoger is saying is that
lots of people are going to Colorado Springs, so therefore it's a useful point of reference. It's not like all of them are driving up the mountain, which is what Kyle was alluding to.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 26, 2023, 09:58:26 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 26, 2023, 09:44:50 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2023, 09:37:23 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
It should be Denver from Hays west. Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.
Did you even read |minneha|'s posts? Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
WB it serves no point of reference unless you're going to Pikes Peak, which I'm sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.
Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?
It's the same area. Pikes Peak, Colorado Springs. It's pretty obvious to what I meant.
But what kphoger is saying is that lots of people are going to Colorado Springs, so therefore it's a useful point of reference. It's not like all of them are driving up the mountain, which is what Kyle was alluding to.
El Paso County, which contains Colorado Springs, is the largest single county by population in Colorado. Lots of people go to the Springs for many reasons besides Pikes Peak.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 26, 2023, 09:58:26 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 26, 2023, 09:44:50 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2023, 09:37:23 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
It should be Denver from Hays west. Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.
Did you even read |minneha|'s posts? Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
WB it serves no point of reference unless you're going to Pikes Peak, which I'm sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.
Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?
It's the same area. Pikes Peak, Colorado Springs. It's pretty obvious to what I meant.
But what kphoger is saying is that lots of people are going to Colorado Springs, so therefore it's a useful point of reference. It's not like all of them are driving up the mountain, which is what Kyle was alluding to.
Figurative speech. Just like people referring to Orlando as " The Mouse" as Disney is near there. It's one of many places in the area.
When I said Pikes Peak I didn't mean it literally. I meant the area around it. I'm sure you all could figure that one out.
My family goes to Colorado Springs much more frequently than Denver, and rarely up Pikes Peak anymore now that we've done the cog railway since reopening. Lots to do in the vicinity, and lots cleaner than Denver can ever hope to be these days. Don't even have family or friends there, but it's a better gateway to skiing/snowboarding for visitors from the southeast.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 26, 2023, 10:41:58 AM
When I said Pikes Peak I didn't mean it literally. I meant the area around it. I'm sure you all could figure that one out.
Nope, I had no clue that you were referring to Colorado Springs when you said "Pikes Peak".
Quote from: roadman65 on September 25, 2023, 06:08:27 PM
... unless you're going to Pikes Peak, which I'm sure is not that many.
Non-truck AADT on US-24 (station 100871) is 41% that of I-70 (station 103095). Granted, AADTs aren't very high in that area to begin with, but still, I wouldn't call that "not many".
Driving back from KC last weekend, and I found the easternmost reference to Denver in Kansas. On the turnpike portion of I-470 around Topeka. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0048293,-95.6554482,3a,75y,244.84h,86.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIi3g_uWxwCCDlG7cJ7cKIQ!2e0!5s20180901T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMNVRrq1/Topeka.png)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 11:26:20 AMDriving back from KC last weekend, and I found the easternmost reference to Denver in Kansas. On the turnpike portion of I-470 around Topeka. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0048293,-95.6554482,3a,75y,244.84h,86.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIi3g_uWxwCCDlG7cJ7cKIQ!2e0!5s20180901T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu)
Hmmm? (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9938541,-95.2737226,3a,75y,294.75h,88.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6W0FRjaTwb9SIjnlJM8fog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
(https://i.imgur.com/lyaXOB8.png)
I guess specifically as a control city, not necessarily any mention.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 12:04:05 PM
I guess specifically as a control city, not necessarily any mention.
If you stretch the definition of 'control city'...
Quote from: kphoger on October 05, 2023, 12:05:47 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 12:04:05 PM
I guess specifically as a control city, not necessarily any mention.
If you stretch the definition of 'control city'...
Do we have an official definition thereof?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 12:08:25 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 05, 2023, 12:05:47 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 12:04:05 PM
I guess specifically as a control city, not necessarily any mention.
If you stretch the definition of 'control city'...
Do we have an official definition thereof?
In the context of a supplemental guide sign, the MUTCD would call that a "destination" rather than a "control city". AASHTO does not have any official control cities for I-470, which is why Kansas doesn't use any.
By the way... In looking up some official documents for this reply... I found something that might be of interest to some other conversations about I-70...
Quote from: AASHTO Guidelines for the Selection of Supplemental Guide Signs for Traffic Generators Adjacent to Freeways — 2001
2-15-5 — Destinations on Signs
5. — Control cities beyond the end of a highway:
A national or regional control city located beyond the end of a highway may be considered to be served by that highway if the connecting route:
a. Is of the same or higher classification, and
b. Continues in the same general direction as the ending highway, and
c. Carries considerable through traffic from the ending highway.
So I guess we have an answer for both of I-70's termini.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 12:08:25 PMDo we have an official definition thereof?
The current
MUTCD uses the term
control city without actually defining it. However, § 2D.41 says that the final line of a three-line distance sign should be "the next major destination or control city," and § 2E.39 (for post-interchange distance signs on freeways) says (as part of a Standard statement) that "The third, or bottom line, shall contain the name and distance to a control city (if any) that has national significance for travelers using the route."
§ 2E.44 has a further mention providing for control city signing at freeway-to-freeway interchanges.
I got yelled at once by some user on here when I showed a distance sign as an example of a control city. Looks like I wasn't in the wrong (and hence, puts me in the wrong in this case).
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 12:40:05 PM
I got yelled at once by some user on here when I showed a distance sign as an example of a control city. Looks like I wasn't in the wrong (and hence, puts me in the wrong in this case).
I didn't realize the third line was supposed to be a control city till now.
Quote from: kphoger on October 05, 2023, 12:44:09 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 12:40:05 PM
I got yelled at once by some user on here when I showed a distance sign as an example of a control city. Looks like I wasn't in the wrong (and hence, puts me in the wrong in this case).
I didn't realize the third line was supposed to be a control city till now.
It was always my assumption, so that's why I was confused originally why I was told I was incorrect.
It's interesting and amusing to me that there are two Denver control city signs in Lawrence and Topeka. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge there are no Denver signs between Topeka and Salina. I know from my own travels that there are no Denver signs between Salina and Hays. Commerce Parkway in Hays is where Denver begins to be consistently signed on westbound I-70.