I can't seem to tell for sure how 291's eastern end is configured.
Some say it turns up the 26th street "expressway" to end at the Surekill there.
Others say it continues along Penrose Ave. and ends at the Surekill at the next interchange over.
Others, such as whoever put together that piece of OpenStreetMap, say it continues past 76 and ends at PA 611 at Oregon Ave.
So which is correct? OSM actually says "PA 291" goes up 26th St, but that "SR0291" goes up Penrose to 611. :hmmm:
That one's a bit of toughy. I believe the current PA 291 runs along 26th st. to I-76 West The exit BGS off I-76 West prior to that merge should technically read TO 291 if it doesn't already.
Once upon a time, PA 291 used to continue along Penrose Ave. and then proceed north along Broad St. to City Hall; the PA 611 designation used to end at City Hall. That's what OSM might've based their information from.
I believe the current set-up has existed for at least 25 years.
"Pennsylvania traffic route" PA 291 and "state route" SR 0291 are not the same thing, just as PA 380 is SR 0400 and the local lanes of US 1 are SR 6001.
Just what are those routes with 4 numbers? Are those considered to be PA's secondary highways?
Have you ever noticed those little white signs that show the number of even secret routes (not in Philly proper) and the section number? They usually don't have preceding zeroes, but SR 0001 is plain old SR 1, which is signed as US 1.
Routes with all four digits filled that begin with 1 to 4 are secondary routes. See the section on the PA Highways state routes (http://www.pahighways.com/state) page.
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 22, 2012, 11:52:58 AM
That one's a bit of toughy. I believe the current PA 291 runs along 26th st. to I-76 West The exit BGS off I-76 West prior to that merge should technically read TO 291 if it doesn't already.
Once upon a time, PA 291 used to continue along Penrose Ave. and then proceed north along Broad St. to City Hall; the PA 611 designation used to end at City Hall. That's what OSM might've based their information from.
I believe the current set-up has existed for at least 25 years.
Looking at Google's (HD) Street View, the WB exit BGS says WEST PA 291, without "To" next to it. The BGS for the eastbound exit says "To PA 291-South I-95" on a full set of button copy signs! :D
Street view on 291 itself shows no shields at all at 611, and no reassurance shields at the Penrose/26th Street intersection for either branch.
So for now, I'm going with it ending at 76 on Penrose.
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on August 22, 2012, 01:04:37 PM
Just what are those routes with 4 numbers? Are those considered to be PA's secondary highways?
No. They're state route numbers that all state maintained highways in Pennsylvania have. Some of them are also signed as "traffic routes", and usually the numbers match. Roadsguy is confused because PA 291 doesn't follow SR 0291.
http://www.pahighways.com/state/LRS.pdf
[edit]It appears that at least the maps in the PennDOT videolog takes PA 291 along SR 0291 all the way to PA 611 (but also calls Broad north of Oregon PA 291, when it's clearly PA 611, so I wouldn't put much stock in it). On the other hand, ftp://ftp.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/BPR_pdf_files/Maps/GHS/Roadnames/philadelphia_GHSN.PDF shows PA 291 along SR 3003 (26th) to I-76.
I can't find any signage for PA 291 north/east of 26th and Penrose, except on I-76 (and the offramp from I-76 west, which has a PA 291 trailblazer). It seems reasonable to put the signed end at I-76 and Penrose.
Here in Connecticut, we have some state maintained roads which aren't signed. The highest numbered state route is 372, which runs from Plainville (near the Bristol city line) southeastward towards Cromwell.
A good example of an unsigned route is the so-called Willow Brook Connector in Berlin. It runs west from CT Route 9 to the junction of CT Routes 372 and 71A near the New Britain city line). It's unsigned CT Route 571. It's no more than 1 1/2 miles long.
Are the little four-digit signs kind of like the tiny green and white markers along most roads and interstates in New York?
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on August 22, 2012, 01:43:02 PM
Are the little four-digit signs kind of like the tiny green and white markers along most roads and interstates in New York?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m-plex.com%2Froads%2Fpamplex%2Fjrotz%2F16_75_416_franklindirex.jpg&hash=e5af6d9f74bb29f313d3281a451db5543cf6092e) (http://www.m-plex.com/roads/pamplex/mp_pa16_pa75_pa416.html)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m-plex.com%2Froads%2Fpamplex%2Ftreichard%2Fpa8n_pa380w_reass.jpg&hash=f662af80d23ff4561822db4b11cdc550069205a6) (http://www.m-plex.com/roads/pamplex/mp_pa8_pa380.html)
It appears that the initial zeros are left off signs.
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on August 22, 2012, 01:43:02 PM
Are the little four-digit signs kind of like the tiny green and white markers along most roads and interstates in New York?
It's the same basic idea. PennDOT uses an entirely different system though. The Segment Numbers (which would be the 170 for SR 75 and the 140 for SR 16 in NE2's picture) are 1/20ths of a mile (which is an odd unit of measurement) from the west/south beginning of the highway in the county. However, if the route is an interstate they are tenths of a mile from the west/south beginning of the highway in PA. If the road is a divided highway, PennDOT will often give the two directions segment numbers that are offset by 1. (For example, SR 15 Seg 30 for NB and SR 15 Seg 31 for SB) Segments are typically one-half mile long, and as such it is rare to see segment numbers less than 10 (or 5 on interstates.)
Usually, for more than one route on the same road, the SR designation and segments refer to the primary route. The only example I can think of where this is not true is the short duplex between PA 581 & US 11. The road stays SR 581 regardless of US 11, although US 11 does retain the SR 11 designation throughout the entire US 11/15 duplex.
PennDOT assigns the state route numbers for the 4-digit routes by figuring out which "quadrant" of the county the route is in. York County, PA divides into quadrants based on location relative to I-83 (North-South divider) and US 30 (East-West). The first digit of the route is a 4 if it's in the NW part, 3 if SW, 2 if SE, and 1 if NE. Again using York County as an example, Old York Road from Rossville to Dillsburg (well into the NW portion of York County) is State Route 4026.
There are special series routes... 6XXX = a road that was transferred to/from PennDOT, 8XXX are ramps and 9XXX are jughandles and turning lanes. The 8XXX series has a special designation. For a diamond interchange, the ramps will have the same SR designation but they will have segments of 10, 250, 500 and 750. For cloverleafs it seems to be 10/11, 250/251, 500/501, and 750/751 for the ramp pairs.
PennDOT also has some odd instances where the SR and signed route don't match. PA 3 uses a set of Quadrant Routes in Philadelphia. But it doesn't seem to be as bad as New York, who I've seen many mismatches in when roads were moved. (245 markers on I-390, 14 markers on NY 17 in Elmira, 379 markers on NY 427 in Elmira... although this does let you figure out a bit of history!)
And to add to the 291 discussion, last I remember being on 291 East, it put you right onto 76.
Quote from: Roadsguy on August 22, 2012, 01:28:19 PMLooking at Google's (HD) Street View, the WB exit BGS says WEST PA 291, without "To" next to it. The BGS for the eastbound exit says "To PA 291-South I-95" on a full set of button copy signs! :D
Street view on 291 itself shows no shields at all at 611, and no reassurance shields at the Penrose/26th Street intersection for either branch.
So for now, I'm going with it ending at 76 on Penrose.
That eastbound BGS was erected during the 1980s and design-wise might have (repeat,
might have) predated S. Broad St. changing from PA 291 to PA 611. Either that or PennDOT sloppily applied the
TO lettering in the wrong place; BGS may have
intended to read
291 TO SOUTH 95. Personally, I would say the latter because the adjacent through-traffic BGS for I-76 East erroneously reads
TO EAST 76 NORTH 95 rather than the more-correct
EAST 76 TO NORTH 95.
IIRC, there
was a reassurance trailblazer assembly along 26th St. just beyond the Platt Bridge that read
EAST 291 and
TO WEST 76 a few years ago. The assembly may have been damaged in an accident and/or the signs stolen by vandals.
PA 291 used to head up Penrose Ave to Broad St, and then up South Broad St to end at City Hall. PA 611's southern terminus was also City Hall. Sometime in the 1980's, PA 291 was re-routed to go up 26th Street and end at I-76, and PA 611 was extended down South Broad St to end at I-95.
For some reason, though, they never did update the related SR numbers.
Also in Philly, stated above, SR 0003 doesn't exactly follow PA 3.
Other counties/PennDOT districts seem to be better about updating SR references when there are traffic route changes.
Quote from: jemacedo9 on August 22, 2012, 06:40:30 PMAlso in Philly, stated above, SR 0003 doesn't exactly follow PA 3.
Not sure if it ever changed; but back in 1992, the SR number for S. Broad between I-95 and Penrose was still 3001 despite the fact that it was already designated (and signed) as PA 611.
Quote from: jemacedo9 on August 22, 2012, 06:40:30 PM
PA 291 used to head up Penrose Ave to Broad St, and then up South Broad St to end at City Hall. PA 611's southern terminus was also City Hall. Sometime in the 1980's, PA 291 was re-routed to go up 26th Street and end at I-76, and PA 611 was extended down South Broad St to end at I-95.
For some reason, though, they never did update the related SR numbers.
:clap: we have a winner