I had a few thoughts about various aspects of pavement markings that didn't fit into other threads, so I figured I'd create a topic, and hopefully it can be used by others in the future.
First, does anyone know why NYSDOT is repainting dedicated turn lane arrows? I just emailed NYSDOT (see the quote below for the message), and will post their response when I get one.
Quote
Within the past few weeks, I've noticed that the markings for dedicated turn lanes have been ground out and repainted at a different spacing. Instead of having the word "ONLY" directly before the arrow, the word and arrows are evenly spaced apart on both ends. I was unable to find any new and/or changed requirements in the 2009 Federal MUTCD (the original revision from December 2009) or the 2012 NYS Supplement. Most of the new arrows I've seen are located on Route 5 between Half Acre Road in Aurelius (listed as CR 5A HALF ACRE RD on the Traffic Volume Report) and Turnpike Road in Sennett (listed as CR 10A SENNETT in the Traffic Volume Report). Any information would be greatly appreciated.
My second thought would apply to a "Pavement Markings with Design Errors" thread, but I thought that was too specific of a topic to make. I took this photo yesterday on Genesee Street westbound at Loop Road here in Auburn. It was repainted about a month ago, but my original photo from then was too blurry.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmjr1990.webng.com%2FAARoads%2FPavement%2520Marking%2520Fail%2520-%2520Loop%2520Road%2C%2520Auburn.jpeg&hash=d11ef6ba1238c7449bf2f38242f4eec8c1f4e65e)
I had to stare at that for like 2 minutes to figure out what the design error was, and now that I've seen it I feel appropriately stupid.
Quote from: Central Avenue on October 12, 2012, 03:46:28 AM
I had to stare at that for like 2 minutes to figure out what the design error was, and now that I've seen it I feel appropriately stupid.
I don't know if it's all that stupid of an error - it just so happens that "ONLY" has been restricted by the MUTCD to mean a lane which can go in
one direction. It is probably of smaller utility (but not so much smaller as to make the discussion a waste of time) to have "ONLY" mean
one or two directions. that lane still needs a restriction to indicate that a left turn from there is prohibited - it just so happens to be the case that the MUTCD, in that situation, specifies a two-headed arrow and no "ONLY".
so yes, it is an error, but it isn't an egregious one.
I think it's more of an error that the straight arrow doesn't stick out more. The arrowhead is practically touching the right curve.
In Oklahoma, it seems like much of the time "ONLY" has been removed in favor of just including the left-turn arrows at a smaller interval. This may be limited to Norman, however; I think ODOT still uses ONLY.
Oklahoma City has an interesting pavement marking to indicate a school zone–a wavy line extending down the middle of the lane, between the tire treads. Is this used elsewhere? I don't think it's in the MUTCD.
NYSDOT and NJDOT both have close-together turning lane striping. I always thought that looked really awkward, but probably because PennDOT spaces it out more (https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.029688,-75.103315&spn=0.000298,0.00066&t=k&z=21). Some districts seem to also omit "ONLY" and have two or more arrows only, like OKDOT (no K?) apparently does.
No K. All three states starting with "O" just call it ODOT.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 12, 2012, 12:16:54 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on October 12, 2012, 03:46:28 AM
I had to stare at that for like 2 minutes to figure out what the design error was, and now that I've seen it I feel appropriately stupid.
I don't know if it's all that stupid of an error - it just so happens that "ONLY" has been restricted by the MUTCD to mean a lane which can go in one direction. It is probably of smaller utility (but not so much smaller as to make the discussion a waste of time) to have "ONLY" mean one or two directions. that lane still needs a restriction to indicate that a left turn from there is prohibited - it just so happens to be the case that the MUTCD, in that situation, specifies a two-headed arrow and no "ONLY".
so yes, it is an error, but it isn't an egregious one.
There's also a dashed line instead of a solid line between the lanes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 12, 2012, 12:43:19 PM
In Oklahoma, it seems like much of the time "ONLY" has been removed in favor of just including the left-turn arrows at a smaller interval. This may be limited to Norman, however; I think ODOT still uses ONLY.
Oklahoma City has an interesting pavement marking to indicate a school zone–a wavy line extending down the middle of the lane, between the tire treads. Is this used elsewhere? I don't think it's in the MUTCD.
The Virginia DOT has tried a wavy line near a bike trail crossing near Leesburg. When they put it there the reports were that the FHWA granted permission for it as an experiment. I haven't heard anything about whether it's worked to call drivers' attention to the crossing. Apparently the concept was that drivers would say "WTF!" and either slow down or pay more attention to their surroundings.
They claimed at the time that they were inspired by lines in the UK, although normally the lines of this sort there are closer to the curb and denote a "no stopping" area.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvoices.washingtonpost.com%2Fgetthere%2FZig%2520Zag%2520markings.jpg&hash=79b15fba8695d6e73fa12f8e74d21f672b8a889b) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvoices.washingtonpost.com%2Fgetthere%2F2009%2F04%2F15%2FPainting%2520zigzag%2520Web.jpg&hash=7d31ad50ffb575b9719988811eb76c8b72edec3a)
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 12, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvoices.washingtonpost.com%2Fgetthere%2FZig%2520Zag%2520markings.jpg&hash=79b15fba8695d6e73fa12f8e74d21f672b8a889b) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvoices.washingtonpost.com%2Fgetthere%2F2009%2F04%2F15%2FPainting%2520zigzag%2520Web.jpg&hash=7d31ad50ffb575b9719988811eb76c8b72edec3a)
That looks like a pavement striper or parking lot striper was asleep/drunk/whacko.
I've noticed this in the Rochester area too...old arrows ground out and then repainted in a slightly different place. It seems like a waste of money to me, but I'm curious to hear what the reply will be when you get one...
Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 12, 2012, 07:17:41 PM
I've noticed this in the Rochester area too...old arrows ground out and then repainted in a slightly different place. It seems like a waste of money to me, but I'm curious to hear what the reply will be when you get one...
I think it's happening
everywhere; I've seen it too many times to count.
That's along the lines of what Oklahoma City uses, but it's a bit narrower and it has smooth curves instead of angles. Example: https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.500605,-97.610078&spn=0.000639,0.001029&t=k&z=21
I've seen the same in Western New York - turn arrows & "ONLY" statements being ground out & then the turn arrows replaced in a different area . . . and the "ONLY" coming back only in some situations (no pun intended). Very interested to hear any reply.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 12, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
The Virginia DOT has tried a wavy line near a bike trail crossing near Leesburg. When they put it there the reports were that the FHWA granted permission for it as an experiment. I haven't heard anything about whether it's worked to call drivers' attention to the crossing. Apparently the concept was that drivers would say "WTF!" and either slow down or pay more attention to their surroundings.
They claimed at the time that they were inspired by lines in the UK, although normally the lines of this sort there are closer to the curb and denote a "no stopping" area.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvoices.washingtonpost.com%2Fgetthere%2FZig%2520Zag%2520markings.jpg&hash=79b15fba8695d6e73fa12f8e74d21f672b8a889b) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvoices.washingtonpost.com%2Fgetthere%2F2009%2F04%2F15%2FPainting%2520zigzag%2520Web.jpg&hash=7d31ad50ffb575b9719988811eb76c8b72edec3a)
Last time I saw a line like that was in the movie Vanishing Point (the original 1970s version). It was used to denote an approach to a temporary single lane bridge and appears in the scene where the Challenger is racing a Jaguar.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 12, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
They claimed at the time that they were inspired by lines in the UK, although normally the lines of this sort there are closer to the curb and denote a "no stopping" area.
I recall them being used most commonly around crosswalks in the UK: http://goo.gl/maps/LU4DG
Virginia, Hawaii, and a few other locations have been experimenting with zigzag crosswalk markings, including some that are similar to the British style:
http://traffic.hawaiicounty.gov/faded-traffic-markings/
http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main/online_reports/pdf/11-r9.pdf (full paper with multiple pictures)
Quote from: realjd on October 23, 2012, 08:44:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 12, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
They claimed at the time that they were inspired by lines in the UK, although normally the lines of this sort there are closer to the curb and denote a "no stopping" area.
I recall them being used most commonly around crosswalks in the UK: http://goo.gl/maps/LU4DG
....
Correct. But notice the fundamental difference between those and what Virginia did. In the British example, one of the zig-zag lines represents the center stripe that separates the two directions of traffic. The other two lines represent "No Stopping" areas along the curbs (or perhaps I should say "kerbs"). Virginia's lines aren't like that at all because they essentially take up almost the entire lane.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 23, 2012, 09:30:14 AM
Quote from: realjd on October 23, 2012, 08:44:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 12, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
They claimed at the time that they were inspired by lines in the UK, although normally the lines of this sort there are closer to the curb and denote a "no stopping" area.
I recall them being used most commonly around crosswalks in the UK: http://goo.gl/maps/LU4DG
....
Correct. But notice the fundamental difference between those and what Virginia did. In the British example, one of the zig-zag lines represents the center stripe that separates the two directions of traffic. The other two lines represent "No Stopping" areas along the curbs (or perhaps I should say "kerbs"). Virginia's lines aren't like that at all because they essentially take up almost the entire lane.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 23, 2012, 09:30:14 AM
Quote from: realjd on October 23, 2012, 08:44:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 12, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
They claimed at the time that they were inspired by lines in the UK, although normally the lines of this sort there are closer to the curb and denote a "no stopping" area.
I recall them being used most commonly around crosswalks in the UK: http://goo.gl/maps/LU4DG
....
Correct. But notice the fundamental difference between those and what Virginia did. In the British example, one of the zig-zag lines represents the center stripe that separates the two directions of traffic. The other two lines represent "No Stopping" areas along the curbs (or perhaps I should say "kerbs"). Virginia's lines aren't like that at all because they essentially take up almost the entire lane.
The Virginia ones in the picture go right down the middle of the lane. But they (and other locations like Hawaii) are also experimenting with more British style ones where the zigzag markings are the lane dividers and along the curbs.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 13, 2012, 01:12:44 AM
That's along the lines of what Oklahoma City uses, but it's a bit narrower and it has smooth curves instead of angles. Example: https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.500605,-97.610078&spn=0.000639,0.001029&t=k&z=21
Are you sure someone didn't just spill some paint, then they came in after-the-fact and said, "Hey, let's just say this is a new warning strip?". OK - I see the line is approaching a School Speed Limit sign...but why not, say, in front of the school, in the road where there's no sidewalk, etc! :-/
Quote from: Roadsguy on October 12, 2012, 01:52:02 PM
NYSDOT and NJDOT both have close-together turning lane striping. I always thought that looked really awkward, but probably because PennDOT spaces it out more (https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.029688,-75.103315&spn=0.000298,0.00066&t=k&z=21). Some districts seem to also omit "ONLY" and have two or more arrows only, like OKDOT (no K?) apparently does.
That's exactly what NYSDOT is doing, but I was having trouble explaining it. I personally prefer the closer spacing.
Anyway, I received a reply last Monday, but am just getting around to posting it. I was all ready to resend my message that night since it had been two weeks.
Quote
Your question about arrows and ONLY's in turn lanes has been forwarded to me for reply. Allow me to give you some history on pavement markings specifically and traffic control devices in general in New York State.
The use of traffic control devices (signs, markings, and signals) in the United States is governed by the Manual on Traffic Control Devices which is published by the Federal Highway Administration and updated about every 5 years. New York State had its own Manual which was accepted by FHWA, but by the early 2000's it became clear that it would be more efficient to use the edition published by FHWA and issue a NY Supplement for the devices that are unique to New York and in 2007 New York adopted the 2003 MUTCD with a state supplement. The NY MUTCD specified that the ONLY be "between 5 and 10 feet" in advance of the arrow. The 2009 Edition of the MUTCD published by FHWA requires that the ONLY be between 32' and 80' in advance of the arrow (see Section 3B.20, paragraph 08 ), so we had to update our markings.
I hope this answers your question. Thank you for your interest in our highways.
The paragraph referenced in the reply is the same in both the 2003 and 2009 MUTCDs, and was not modified by either NY Supplement:
Quote
Except for the two opposing arrows of a two-way left-turn lane marking (see Figure 3B-7), the longitudinal space between word or symbol message markings, including arrow markings, should be at least four times the height of the characters for low-speed roads, but not more than ten times the height of the characters under any conditions.
Going back even further, the 2000 MUTCD had the same numbers with very similar wording:
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The longitudinal space between word or symbol message markings, including arrow markings, should be at least four times the height of the characters for low-speed roads, but not more than ten times the height of the characters under any conditions.
The quoted paragraphs are Guidance statements in all three MUTCDs.
The spacing of words is mentioned in the same section as TWLTL arrows, which had the 4-10x spacing added in the 2003 version, along with a compliance date of five years after the Final Rule of the 2003 MUTCD. Since the most recent revision of the 2003 MUTCD was released in 2007, five years would be 2012.
For reference, here's (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/divisions/operating/oom/transportation-systems/traffic-operations-section/mutcd) a link to the 2007 and 2012 NY Supplements.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 12, 2012, 12:40:20 PM
I think it's more of an error that the straight arrow doesn't stick out more. The arrowhead is practically touching the right curve.
The short arrow is partly an illusion because of the angle of the photo. I had to go back and look at it in person to be sure. It's higher up the straight arrow shaft than normal, but the arrow heads don't actually touch.
P.S.: After typing this message, I feel like JN.
When I was checking my Facebook News Feed earlier, this showed up from How It's Made:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.treehugger.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2Fsmart-highway-2.jpg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg&hash=70f663f6f2793d471809fbea5a9114d1485426e9)
From the article that was linked (http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/smart-highways-netherlands-will-glow-dark.html):
Quote
The Netherlands will start experimenting with photoluminescent paint on roads that charges in sunlight and then glows at night to denote lanes, traffic markers and even cold weather conditions.
Poor crosswalk placement at a roundabout in Minnesota:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FCrosswalks%2Funtitled56_zps4cdbedf7.jpg&hash=c838aff1a212154ed86bdfe9c6e943d4429570b3) (http://s478.photobucket.com/user/tradephoric/media/Transportation%20Pictures/Crosswalks/untitled56_zps4cdbedf7.jpg.html)
https://maps.google.com/?ll=45.194333,-93.844226&spn=0.000533,0.000862&t=h&z=20
Quote from: Michael on January 08, 2013, 01:18:54 PM
When I was checking my Facebook News Feed earlier, this showed up from How It's Made:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.treehugger.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2Fsmart-highway-2.jpg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg&hash=70f663f6f2793d471809fbea5a9114d1485426e9)
From the article that was linked (http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/smart-highways-netherlands-will-glow-dark.html):
Quote
The Netherlands will start experimenting with photoluminescent paint on roads that charges in sunlight and then glows at night to denote lanes, traffic markers and even cold weather conditions.
Now this would be excellent out in rural areas
Quote from: ET21 on February 03, 2014, 02:13:35 PM
Quote from: Michael on January 08, 2013, 01:18:54 PM
When I was checking my Facebook News Feed earlier, this showed up from How It's Made:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.treehugger.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2Fsmart-highway-2.jpg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg&hash=70f663f6f2793d471809fbea5a9114d1485426e9)
From the article that was linked (http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/smart-highways-netherlands-will-glow-dark.html):
Quote
The Netherlands will start experimenting with photoluminescent paint on roads that charges in sunlight and then glows at night to denote lanes, traffic markers and even cold weather conditions.
Now this would be excellent out in rural areas
My biggest concern is how would they perform with snowplows and snow covered roads.
Quote from: tradephoric on February 02, 2014, 11:03:07 PM
Poor crosswalk placement at a roundabout in Minnesota:
IMG
Please, baby Jesus, let that be a joke...PLEASE!!
I found my own odd pavement marking near Tacoma, WA:
http://goo.gl/tZEA7F
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6gjm03Q.png&hash=10b757db15cf35c34698312f63b4e6a87cc61ba6)
Two errors in this one:
1) "centre" -- spelled wrong. Emailed Gig Harbor chief engineer, they are going to fix it next time the markings are updated.
2) the calligraphy is painted from top to bottom, instead of bottom to top. I personally prefer this, but technically it's wrong.
Quote from: jake on February 03, 2014, 06:23:29 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on February 02, 2014, 11:03:07 PM
Poor crosswalk placement at a roundabout in Minnesota:
IMG
Please, baby Jesus, let that be a joke...PLEASE!!
Seconded.
Quote
I found my own odd pavement marking near Tacoma, WA:
http://goo.gl/tZEA7F
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6gjm03Q.png&hash=10b757db15cf35c34698312f63b4e6a87cc61ba6)
Two errors in this one:
1) "centre" -- spelled wrong. Emailed Gig Harbor chief engineer, they are going to fix it next time the markings are updated.
2) the calligraphy is painted from top to bottom, instead of bottom to top. I personally prefer this, but technically it's wrong.
I also agree on #2, but only where a driver can reasonably see both words at approximately the same time. Doesn't work in some instances. All the more reason to keep word messages as simple as possible.
Quote from: Alps on February 03, 2014, 07:14:46 PM
I also agree on #2, but only where a driver can reasonably see both words at approximately the same time. Doesn't work in some instances. All the more reason to keep word messages as simple as possible.
I agree. Like on a road going down a slope. Still though, it's weird having to unlearn "top to bottom, left to right".
Quote from: ET21 on February 03, 2014, 02:13:35 PM
Quote from: Michael on January 08, 2013, 01:18:54 PM
When I was checking my Facebook News Feed earlier, this showed up from How It's Made:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.treehugger.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2Fsmart-highway-2.jpg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg&hash=70f663f6f2793d471809fbea5a9114d1485426e9)
From the article that was linked (http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/smart-highways-netherlands-will-glow-dark.html):
Quote
The Netherlands will start experimenting with photoluminescent paint on roads that charges in sunlight and then glows at night to denote lanes, traffic markers and even cold weather conditions.
Now this would be excellent out in rural areas
Definitely like the idea, very "Tron" ish, but would all colored lines have the same "alien green" color? They could add some fluorescence color to the paints that would help also to differentiate between yellow and white.
Quote from: doogie1303 on February 04, 2014, 09:43:39 PM
Quote from: ET21 on February 03, 2014, 02:13:35 PM
Quote from: Michael on January 08, 2013, 01:18:54 PM
When I was checking my Facebook News Feed earlier, this showed up from How It's Made:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.treehugger.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2Fsmart-highway-2.jpg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg&hash=70f663f6f2793d471809fbea5a9114d1485426e9)
From the article that was linked (http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/smart-highways-netherlands-will-glow-dark.html):
Quote
The Netherlands will start experimenting with photoluminescent paint on roads that charges in sunlight and then glows at night to denote lanes, traffic markers and even cold weather conditions.
Now this would be excellent out in rural areas
Definitely like the idea, very "Tron" ish, but would all colored lines have the same "alien green" color? They could add some fluorescence color to the paints that would help also to differentiate between yellow and white.
Apparently in the future, the sky is lit with blacklights as well.
Quote from: doogie1303 on February 04, 2014, 09:43:39 PM
Quote from: ET21 on February 03, 2014, 02:13:35 PM
Quote from: Michael on January 08, 2013, 01:18:54 PM
When I was checking my Facebook News Feed earlier, this showed up from How It's Made:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.treehugger.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2Fsmart-highway-2.jpg.492x0_q85_crop-smart.jpg&hash=70f663f6f2793d471809fbea5a9114d1485426e9)
From the article that was linked (http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/smart-highways-netherlands-will-glow-dark.html):
Quote
The Netherlands will start experimenting with photoluminescent paint on roads that charges in sunlight and then glows at night to denote lanes, traffic markers and even cold weather conditions.
Now this would be excellent out in rural areas
Definitely like the idea, very "Tron" ish, but would all colored lines have the same "alien green" color? They could add some fluorescence color to the paints that would help also to differentiate between yellow and white.
Most of Europe only uses white lines (aside from parking markings or construction markings)...
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 05, 2014, 05:16:11 AM
Most of Europe only uses white lines (aside from parking markings or construction markings)...
http://goo.gl/maps/zoJBH
I'm guessing the 'center line' is just a much thicker white line in lieu of the American solid-yellow or striped-yellow.
Also, slightly off topic, but I thought they used km/h in the UK? This sign tells me otherwise:
http://goo.gl/maps/28W5l
Quote from: Zeffy on February 05, 2014, 11:11:30 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 05, 2014, 05:16:11 AM
Most of Europe only uses white lines (aside from parking markings or construction markings)...
http://goo.gl/maps/zoJBH
I'm guessing the 'center line' is just a much thicker white line in lieu of the American solid-yellow or striped-yellow.
Also, slightly off topic, but I thought they used km/h in the UK? This sign tells me otherwise:
http://goo.gl/maps/28W5l
UK uses different types of white lines depending on context. Generally speaking, center lines are white and similar to American lines while lane dividing lines are short lines spaced farther apart.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070563.pdf
In practice though, it isn't an issue figuring out which is which. It seems to just work itself out through context, traffic flow, and signage. When in doubt, keep left.
UK uses miles and yards for road signs. Along with us, they're one of the few holdouts on metricising (that's a word, right?) the roads.
EDIT:
I wanted to add that in built up areas, lanes are treated more informally than in the US. People are often allowed to park along the curb in the left lane, and roads will sometimes shift from one wide lane to two narrow lanes from block to block. If the lane is wide enough, people form two lanes anyway. I've also seen it where lanes are marked at intersections but not in between. Drivers all tend to figure it out and I've never noticed it leading to any problems in any of my trips over there.
This doesn't apply to highways and motorways of course. Lanes are always well marked on high speed roads in my experience.
The double yellow edge lines in your street view link indicate no stopping or parking along the curb.
If you watch Top Gear, they always say MPH and miles. They only converted their temperatures to metric.
I saw a GIF (http://imgur.com/5ZfZmw3) (well, technically GIFV) of this video yesterday on Imgur:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/16052489859/in/photostream/
Isn't this a beautiful shield (or shields) paintings ever?
I've always wondered how do they get it exact when in a truck? I noticed when painting broken lines, even if one is off centered they can still trace it exact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTckC_eJs
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2015, 12:32:23 PM
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/16052489859/in/photostream/
Isn't this a beautiful shield (or shields) paintings ever?
A couple of NW variations:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYrXkC0y.png&hash=cfa958090e6fec527433a412503e0a2d9138c0a4)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfQYEnOy.png&hash=8b66202f1c6ab3a2347efeff62aadec34a3718f1)
Zig-zag markings have made their way to SR 9 in Washington State:
http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2015/08/new-zig-zag-pavement-markings.html
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-QNnjMgH-QgI%2FVdI8gh35WgI%2FAAAAAAAABw0%2FG-63BIYtorg%2Fs1600%2Fsr-99-zig-zag-lines-2.jpg&hash=3a43be1f7d526a7aa8a1cbc88794999e91a31cc1)
Quote from: Zeffy on February 05, 2014, 11:11:30 AM
Also, slightly off topic, but I thought they used km/h in the UK? This sign tells me otherwise:
http://goo.gl/maps/28W5l
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
WSDOT has been installing LEDs on the lanes of I-90 near Snoqualmie Pass:
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
My mistake. Was on Street-view and didn't check which direction I was looking at.
Orlando's Expressway Authority has been doing a ton of new roadway markings over the past year. I personally don't like most of them, here's what I've noticed that I haven't seen too many other places:
Extremely long arrows and dashes on the option lanes, for example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5399471,-81.3188048,3a,25.1y,283.55h,86.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seVt5CNEVZ7XLimn_0f1GoQ!2e0!5s20150301T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Right behind that you can see they also just added typical intersection right turn arrows. I think its looks pretty ugly, and is somewhat inaccurate, so there should be a better way to do it, but the area does have a lot of people who, from the right lane of the 2 exit lanes, feel they can choose either of the 2 exit lanes even if someone is next to them who has the option to exit into the left of the exit lanes. A fair number of people also seem to believe that from the right lane, they can change lanes right at the gore as well to continue going straight, seemingly getting upset when someone uses the option lane to exit as it makes that maneuver more difficult.
Another thing is when lanes are ending, they're adding the same small dashed lines that go all the way to the end of the merge period, with the lane disappearing behind the line. I really hate this one, as usually when the dashed lines end, its very easy to tell that the lane merge is imminent for both lanes. I'm also used to that sort of dashed line indicating that the lane you are in is exit only. Street view doesn't seem to be updated enough for that line marking yet even though they're only a couple months old. I really don't even understand the logic for this one. The best I can come up with is thta when you reach the end of the merge, some people feel they need to stop others from passing them when its busy traffic, so they begin to drive in the middle of the 2 lanes to try to block those trying to pass in the merging lane. Perhaps they believe this will help them stay in their lane? The first time I saw it, I was about to get off at the next exit, saw the dashed lines and assumed I should get into that lane, pulled into the lane and someone began passing me as my lane was coming to an abrupt end
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 17, 2015, 10:35:21 PM
Extremely long arrows and dashes on the option lanes, for example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5399471,-81.3188048,3a,25.1y,283.55h,86.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seVt5CNEVZ7XLimn_0f1GoQ!2e0!5s20150301T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Right behind that you can see they also just added typical intersection right turn arrows. I think its looks pretty ugly, and is somewhat inaccurate, so there should be a better way to do it, but the area does have a lot of people who, from the right lane of the 2 exit lanes, feel they can choose either of the 2 exit lanes even if someone is next to them who has the option to exit into the left of the exit lanes. A fair number of people also seem to believe that from the right lane, they can change lanes right at the gore as well to continue going straight, seemingly getting upset when someone uses the option lane to exit as it makes that maneuver more difficult.
These long arrows were likely adapted from the UK, where they are used to indicate lanes that are either being added or lanes that are diverging from the present roadway. Florida is the only state that I know of that uses them. I think they are quite helpful, at the very least helping drivers in the lane directly to the right to recognize the optional lane which is also exiting (as you've stated). As for the drivers in the lane in which the arrows are placed, they may be helpful in assisting drivers as to what the lane they are in is doing, beyond the typical straight/right arrow. I don't think any studying has been done, but I think comparing the two, the long arrow sticking into the straight
and optional lane (the new style) might be the more visible of the two. Though, to be fair, they aren't really built to replace one-another, but rather assist each other.
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 17, 2015, 10:35:21 PM
Another thing is when lanes are ending, they're adding the same small dashed lines that go all the way to the end of the merge period, with the lane disappearing behind the line. I really hate this one, as usually when the dashed lines end, its very easy to tell that the lane merge is imminent for both lanes. I'm also used to that sort of dashed line indicating that the lane you are in is exit only. Street view doesn't seem to be updated enough for that line marking yet even though they're only a couple months old. I really don't even understand the logic for this one. The best I can come up with is thta when you reach the end of the merge, some people feel they need to stop others from passing them when its busy traffic, so they begin to drive in the middle of the 2 lanes to try to block those trying to pass in the merging lane. Perhaps they believe this will help them stay in their lane? The first time I saw it, I was about to get off at the next exit, saw the dashed lines and assumed I should get into that lane, pulled into the lane and someone began passing me as my lane was coming to an abrupt end
The closely spaced dashed lines are called, I believe, "edge extensions" or something of the sort and a number of states, and many countries use these markings to indicate when lanes are ending or beginning (alternatively, merging or diverging). The Ontario Ministry of Transportation calls them "continuity lines", and states the following (http://goo.gl/IrjIcK):
"When you see continuity lines on your left side, it generally means the lane you are in is ending or exiting and that you must change lanes if you want to continue in your current direction. Continuity lines on your right mean your lane will continue unaffected."For all practical purposes, the closely-spaced dotted lines you speak of ("edge extensions") mean the same thing. Personally, I like them and I find they reduce ambiguity with regards to whether or not you are in a lane or not. Wide-open spaces where lanes diverge and merge sort of bug me. These dotted extension lines help keep people in the right lane, in my experience. (WSDOT doesn't really use these except when there's a restricted lane involved or geometry which may result in incorrect lane usage, but British Columbia uses them extensively, in much the same way as Ontario).
Pardon the bump...
Hilo, HI has installed zig-zag edge lines leading up to some of their crosswalks. The typical US style is to place them in the center of the lane. I prefer the edge markings because it visually narrows the lane down, which may or may not heighten driver awareness...
Image from Dongho Chang (Seattle DOT traffic engineer) via Twitter (https://goo.gl/NVc6ir):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CgrQtpRU0AA7GoB.jpg:large)
Going back to continuity lines, most NYSDOT regions started using them quite extensively when the 2009 MUTCD came out. Few other states use them in such a widespread way.
With the original topic of the post (grinding out markings and repainting), the main place I have seen that is Region 4. Very common there.
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious when you cross the border.
https://goo.gl/maps/emVbjGhTXv52
Quote from: cbeach40 on April 27, 2016, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious when you cross the border.
https://goo.gl/maps/emVbjGhTXv52
He already made it clear, eight months ago, that he was looking the wrong way in street view:
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 10:32:41 PM
My mistake. Was on Street-view and didn't check which direction I was looking at.
Quote from: jakeroot on April 27, 2016, 04:49:43 PM
He already made it clear, eight months ago, that he was looking the wrong way in street view:
I was showing that the sign exists. For some reason I thought that a transportation discussion forum was an appropriate place to show a picture of a traffic control device.
Quote from: cbeach40 on April 27, 2016, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious when you cross the border.
https://goo.gl/maps/emVbjGhTXv52
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0527172,-74.0254249,3a,75y,63.71h,101.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn25spanjAZNCwNOrU2SUvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
Quote from: bzakharin on May 03, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on April 27, 2016, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious when you cross the border.
https://goo.gl/maps/emVbjGhTXv52
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0527172,-74.0254249,3a,75y,63.71h,101.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn25spanjAZNCwNOrU2SUvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
The sign is there because NY 304 is a state highway. Note that there is no "welcome to NJ" sign in the other direction. Heck, even US 11 doesn't have a sign coming into PA, and where NY 7A crosses the state line, only this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9980865,-75.7648738,3a,75y,182h,73.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLNkL7nNIsCH7pEU8C7qUfA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 03, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on April 27, 2016, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious when you cross the border.
https://goo.gl/maps/emVbjGhTXv52
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0527172,-74.0254249,3a,75y,63.71h,101.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn25spanjAZNCwNOrU2SUvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
The sign is there because NY 304 is a state highway. Note that there is no "welcome to NJ" sign in the other direction. Heck, even US 11 doesn't have a sign coming into PA, and where NY 7A crosses the state line, only this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9980865,-75.7648738,3a,75y,182h,73.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLNkL7nNIsCH7pEU8C7qUfA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US
Signs are typically only posted for state-maintained highways. None of the more minor crossings into New York are signed, except
maybe with a county line sign if the road is county-maintained.
Quote from: bzakharin on May 03, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0527172,-74.0254249,3a,75y,63.71h,101.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn25spanjAZNCwNOrU2SUvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
Crossing between UK states (Scotland, Wales, and England) is a bigger deal than between countries, evidently:
- Scotland into England: https://goo.gl/ixXs9B
- England into Scotland: https://goo.gl/GQEybP
- England into Wales: https://goo.gl/ahwcNi
- Wales into England: https://goo.gl/dyL5UW
Quote from: bzakharin on May 03, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
Given how loaded of a question the "different country" issue is there, it's not entirely surprising.
Quote from: cbeach40 on May 03, 2016, 03:20:25 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 03, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
Given how loaded of a question the "different country" issue is there, it's not entirely surprising.
This. Not even the A1 (only limited-access crossing between the two countries) has any signs other than a county line sign heading SB.
Quote from: cl94 on May 03, 2016, 01:54:54 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 03, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on April 27, 2016, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious when you cross the border.
https://goo.gl/maps/emVbjGhTXv52
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0527172,-74.0254249,3a,75y,63.71h,101.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn25spanjAZNCwNOrU2SUvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
The sign is there because NY 304 is a state highway. Note that there is no "welcome to NJ" sign in the other direction. Heck, even US 11 doesn't have a sign coming into PA, and where NY 7A crosses the state line, only this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9980865,-75.7648738,3a,75y,182h,73.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLNkL7nNIsCH7pEU8C7qUfA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US
Signs are typically only posted for state-maintained highways. None of the more minor crossings into New York are signed, except maybe with a county line sign if the road is county-maintained.
Typically. However:
This kind of signage (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nashua,+NH+03062/@42.7020335,-71.5148702,3a,75y,333.66h,69.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sM1rZFHUa_iIoF4dLOUPszg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DM1rZFHUa_iIoF4dLOUPszg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D77.819778%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x89e3b9e3aa8d5649:0xf1481195a70dbc61) is fairly common (though not universal) on minor roads leading out of Massachusetts.
This kind of sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9163761,-70.9926023,3a,15.9y,297.98h,86.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM4D-zp51xKIQQf1vMensRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is typical of entering New Hampshire from Maine or Vermont on a minor road (not the blue "STATE LINE" sign, but rather the vertical sign with "S/L" on an Old Man of the Mountain silhouette with the town name you're entering in black on white on the left and "NEW HAMPSHIRE" in white on green on the right).
I guess it's a New England thing. I live very close to the Mason-Dixon Line, and while on state roads you'll see a WELCOME TO PENNSYLVANIA / WELCOME TO MARYLAND, on minor roads you're lucky if you get a stone marker with a M engraved on the Maryland side and P engraved on the Pennsylvania side.
Quote from: tckma on May 04, 2016, 01:56:08 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 03, 2016, 01:54:54 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 03, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on April 27, 2016, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious when you cross the border.
https://goo.gl/maps/emVbjGhTXv52
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0527172,-74.0254249,3a,75y,63.71h,101.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn25spanjAZNCwNOrU2SUvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
The sign is there because NY 304 is a state highway. Note that there is no "welcome to NJ" sign in the other direction. Heck, even US 11 doesn't have a sign coming into PA, and where NY 7A crosses the state line, only this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9980865,-75.7648738,3a,75y,182h,73.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLNkL7nNIsCH7pEU8C7qUfA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US
Signs are typically only posted for state-maintained highways. None of the more minor crossings into New York are signed, except maybe with a county line sign if the road is county-maintained.
Typically. However:
This kind of signage (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nashua,+NH+03062/@42.7020335,-71.5148702,3a,75y,333.66h,69.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sM1rZFHUa_iIoF4dLOUPszg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DM1rZFHUa_iIoF4dLOUPszg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D77.819778%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x89e3b9e3aa8d5649:0xf1481195a70dbc61) is fairly common (though not universal) on minor roads leading out of Massachusetts.
This kind of sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9163761,-70.9926023,3a,15.9y,297.98h,86.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM4D-zp51xKIQQf1vMensRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is typical of entering New Hampshire from Maine or Vermont on a minor road (not the blue "STATE LINE" sign, but rather the vertical sign with "S/L" on an Old Man of the Mountain silhouette with the town name you're entering in black on white on the left and "NEW HAMPSHIRE" in white on green on the right).
I guess it's a New England thing. I live very close to the Mason-Dixon Line, and while on state roads you'll see a WELCOME TO PENNSYLVANIA / WELCOME TO MARYLAND, on minor roads you're lucky if you get a stone marker with a M engraved on the Maryland side and P engraved on the Pennsylvania side.
That's Eastern Massachusetts. The minor roads in Western Massachusetts might have a boundary marker. Minor roads in Vermont almost never have signs and the only indication you're in Vermont is often the lack of CR markers.
Quote from: cl94 on May 04, 2016, 08:05:06 PM
Quote from: tckma on May 04, 2016, 01:56:08 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 03, 2016, 01:54:54 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 03, 2016, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on April 27, 2016, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: realjd on August 17, 2015, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 17, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
UK uses imperial for road signs. Northern Ireland went metric in 2005.
No they didn't. As part of the UK, Northern Ireland still uses mph on their roads. The non-UK portion or Ireland (ROI) uses metric.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious when you cross the border.
https://goo.gl/maps/emVbjGhTXv52
What's amazing to me is that this is the *only* indication that you crossed into a different country. In the US, crossing a *state* line is a bigger deal on all but the smallest roads:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0527172,-74.0254249,3a,75y,63.71h,101.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn25spanjAZNCwNOrU2SUvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
The sign is there because NY 304 is a state highway. Note that there is no "welcome to NJ" sign in the other direction. Heck, even US 11 doesn't have a sign coming into PA, and where NY 7A crosses the state line, only this: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9980865,-75.7648738,3a,75y,182h,73.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLNkL7nNIsCH7pEU8C7qUfA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US
Signs are typically only posted for state-maintained highways. None of the more minor crossings into New York are signed, except maybe with a county line sign if the road is county-maintained.
Typically. However:
This kind of signage (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nashua,+NH+03062/@42.7020335,-71.5148702,3a,75y,333.66h,69.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sM1rZFHUa_iIoF4dLOUPszg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DM1rZFHUa_iIoF4dLOUPszg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D77.819778%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x89e3b9e3aa8d5649:0xf1481195a70dbc61) is fairly common (though not universal) on minor roads leading out of Massachusetts.
This kind of sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9163761,-70.9926023,3a,15.9y,297.98h,86.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM4D-zp51xKIQQf1vMensRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is typical of entering New Hampshire from Maine or Vermont on a minor road (not the blue "STATE LINE" sign, but rather the vertical sign with "S/L" on an Old Man of the Mountain silhouette with the town name you're entering in black on white on the left and "NEW HAMPSHIRE" in white on green on the right).
I guess it's a New England thing. I live very close to the Mason-Dixon Line, and while on state roads you'll see a WELCOME TO PENNSYLVANIA / WELCOME TO MARYLAND, on minor roads you're lucky if you get a stone marker with a M engraved on the Maryland side and P engraved on the Pennsylvania side.
That's Eastern Massachusetts. The minor roads in Western Massachusetts might have a boundary marker. Minor roads in Vermont almost never have signs and the only indication you're in Vermont is often the lack of CR markers.
Minor roads across the NY/NJ border tend to vary. Sometimes you get the county name like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0462693,-74.0135665,3a,37.5y,224.87h,76.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKB61Wh5ngQmF1QwVpvjqLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
Or just the town name like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0468646,-74.0135225,3a,75y,358.45h,66.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scotYCIL9Bsq3cixL7DuJQg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
Often just a change in the way the speed limit is signed. Oddly enough, I have never seen county line signs *within* NJ except on the GS Parkway and Atlantic City Expressway
Quote from: bzakharin on May 04, 2016, 10:45:02 PM
Minor roads across the NY/NJ border tend to vary. Sometimes you get the county name like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0462693,-74.0135665,3a,37.5y,224.87h,76.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKB61Wh5ngQmF1QwVpvjqLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
Or just the town name like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0468646,-74.0135225,3a,75y,358.45h,66.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scotYCIL9Bsq3cixL7DuJQg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
Often just a change in the way the speed limit is signed. Oddly enough, I have never seen county line signs *within* NJ except on the GS Parkway and Atlantic City Expressway
That's kind of like what you might get on the MD/PA border. The only indications that you're crossing a state line here (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.720392,-76.9791687,3a,15y,18.33h,80.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so9hLE6UFi1Xm05Af--Lvrg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) are the change to terrible quality pavement (because Pennsylvania is terrible at road maintenance), the speed limit sign, and the "END CARROLL COUNTY MAINTENANCE," all of which might be missed, and the latter two are used elsewhere -- end county maintenance where a road shifts from county to city or state maintenance within MD. Similarly, here. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7204164,-76.8442168,3a,43.7y,27.64h,75.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPxHpmP05jopoBPnkWFizEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7199836,-77.2097626,3a,21.1y,214.58h,68.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDRIFN-OPQuVNUcI-61sE_A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is the stone marker I was talking about. This is an interesting case, though, in that on the PA side it's a state highway (there's an "END PA-134" reassurance marker just before this stone marker), but on the MD side it's a county route (county routes exist on paper in MD but are never signed). Notice that in the opposite direction (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7198591,-77.2097381,3a,75y,20.91h,79.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbR9ewsT8uRQSTi0ugOzlIQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) you get the very first PA-134 reassurance marker and a blue Welcome to Pennsylvania sign not to far ahead of that.
The transition is pretty obvious on a state highway, of course (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Westminster,+MD+21158/@39.7206603,-76.8415486,3a,75y,217.05h,96.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWC9BwOOSFf4R8IcbRCUmJg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWC9BwOOSFf4R8IcbRCUmJg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D345.70407%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c8489694a50421:0x9e64cbb314727630!8m2!3d39.6413648!4d-77.0334179).
Quote from: tckma on May 05, 2016, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 04, 2016, 10:45:02 PM
Minor roads across the NY/NJ border tend to vary. Sometimes you get the county name like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0462693,-74.0135665,3a,37.5y,224.87h,76.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKB61Wh5ngQmF1QwVpvjqLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
Or just the town name like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0468646,-74.0135225,3a,75y,358.45h,66.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scotYCIL9Bsq3cixL7DuJQg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US
Often just a change in the way the speed limit is signed. Oddly enough, I have never seen county line signs *within* NJ except on the GS Parkway and Atlantic City Expressway
That's kind of like what you might get on the MD/PA border. The only indications that you're crossing a state line here (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.720392,-76.9791687,3a,15y,18.33h,80.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so9hLE6UFi1Xm05Af--Lvrg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) are the change to terrible quality pavement (because Pennsylvania is terrible at road maintenance), the speed limit sign, and the "END CARROLL COUNTY MAINTENANCE," all of which might be missed, and the latter two are used elsewhere -- end county maintenance where a road shifts from county to city or state maintenance within MD. Similarly, here. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7204164,-76.8442168,3a,43.7y,27.64h,75.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPxHpmP05jopoBPnkWFizEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7199836,-77.2097626,3a,21.1y,214.58h,68.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDRIFN-OPQuVNUcI-61sE_A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is the stone marker I was talking about. This is an interesting case, though, in that on the PA side it's a state highway (there's an "END PA-134" reassurance marker just before this stone marker), but on the MD side it's a county route (county routes exist on paper in MD but are never signed). Notice that in the opposite direction (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7198591,-77.2097381,3a,75y,20.91h,79.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbR9ewsT8uRQSTi0ugOzlIQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) you get the very first PA-134 reassurance marker and a blue Welcome to Pennsylvania sign not to far ahead of that.
The transition is pretty obvious on a state highway, of course (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Westminster,+MD+21158/@39.7206603,-76.8415486,3a,75y,217.05h,96.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWC9BwOOSFf4R8IcbRCUmJg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWC9BwOOSFf4R8IcbRCUmJg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D345.70407%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c8489694a50421:0x9e64cbb314727630!8m2!3d39.6413648!4d-77.0334179).
Pavement quality is the reason why the PA border from any state might be the easiest land border to spot :spin: . Boundary markers like that are often the only indication of the NY-VT line.
Pardon the bump. This is the best thread for this tweet:
https://twitter.com/QAGreenways/status/1195242731473260544
I came across this video on the history of lane markings. I figured this would be good food for thought:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KYBaoNPNgA
I wonder how many threads is that video going to end up in...
Biggish bump.
This merge (https://goo.gl/maps/EsGDsx8RENjcGz936) from Kaumana Rd to westbound Saddle Road on Hawaii (the big island) has 12 "merge left" arrows painted into the ground.
Hawaii loves pavement markings, and seems to use a lot of them where other states might not use any, but even this might be overkill:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50927910798_cd6f975dff_o.png)
That's also an overkill design for what is a minor side road. Does it need its own acceleration and deceleration lane (especially from the south)?
Speaking of Hawaii: https://goo.gl/maps/j9gRHARRNchcruUJ7 and https://goo.gl/maps/R1E8WdWuqeLbX95n7 - what's going on here?
(https://i.imgur.com/bWFTQx6.png)
Quote from: seicer on February 10, 2021, 08:39:42 AM
That's also an overkill design for what is a minor side road. Does it need its own acceleration and deceleration lane (especially from the south)?
Speaking of Hawaii: https://goo.gl/maps/j9gRHARRNchcruUJ7 and https://goo.gl/maps/R1E8WdWuqeLbX95n7 - what's going on here?
(https://i.imgur.com/bWFTQx6.png)
Looks like there was a British invasion.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2021, 03:55:08 AM
Biggish bump.
This merge (https://goo.gl/maps/EsGDsx8RENjcGz936) from Kaumana Rd to westbound Saddle Road on Hawaii (the big island) has 12 "merge left" arrows painted into the ground.
Hawaii loves pavement markings, and seems to use a lot of them where other states might not use any, but even this might be overkill:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50927910798_cd6f975dff_o.png)
Yeah, super overkill on the arrows. Two or three arrows near the end of the lane would be sufficient. I doubt all the through arrows next to some of the merge arrows are necessary also.
But I do like the use of the stripe/broken line along the acceleration lane–such was discussed elsewhere, but I'm really surprised that application is not in the MUTCD.
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2021, 08:56:30 AM
Quote from: seicer on February 10, 2021, 08:39:42 AM
Speaking of Hawaii: https://goo.gl/maps/j9gRHARRNchcruUJ7 and https://goo.gl/maps/R1E8WdWuqeLbX95n7 - what's going on here?
(https://i.imgur.com/bWFTQx6.png)
Looks like there was a British invasion.
It's definitely a British thing.
Seattle also uses zig-zag markings, but just at a couple locations. Here's one along Henderson St SW. Note that the zig-zag markings replaced all of the markings here, rather than complimenting them as in the Hawaii example:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50930141772_8a84a77484_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50929329463_d91c2d144a_h.jpg)
Quote from: roadfro on February 10, 2021, 01:14:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2021, 03:55:08 AM
Biggish bump.
This merge (https://goo.gl/maps/EsGDsx8RENjcGz936) from Kaumana Rd to westbound Saddle Road on Hawaii (the big island) has 12 "merge left" arrows painted into the ground.
Hawaii loves pavement markings, and seems to use a lot of them where other states might not use any, but even this might be overkill:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50927910798_cd6f975dff_o.png)
Yeah, super overkill on the arrows. Two or three arrows near the end of the lane would be sufficient. I doubt all the through arrows next to some of the merge arrows are necessary also.
But I do like the use of the stripe/broken line along the acceleration lane–such was discussed elsewhere, but I'm really surprised that application is not in the MUTCD.
What's strange to me is why they'd paint the arrows so early, when the lane is so long. It gets to the point where staying in that lane until the end might be awkward.
That Hawaiian-style stripe/broken line is such a cool idea. I'm not sure I realized it wasn't in the MUTCD, but then I've never seen it elsewhere
in the US. Gotta wonder who thought to first use it.
Quote from: seicer on February 10, 2021, 08:39:42 AM
That's also an overkill design for what is a minor side road. Does it need its own acceleration and deceleration lane (especially from the south)?
Probably not, although Hawaii uses slip lanes with dedicated turning lanes on a very frequent basis, to the point where I'm thinking it's standard policy.
edit: specified claim.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
That Hawaiian-style stripe/broken line is such a cool idea. I'm not sure I realized it wasn't in the MUTCD, but then I've never seen it elsewhere. Gotta wonder who thought to first use it.
It's used in Belgium (https://www.google.se/maps/@50.631586,4.3075279,3a,51.7y,8.25h,84.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4pfEWKVffl2mYFTBM3NPRg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Norway (https://www.google.se/maps/@59.5760164,11.2840085,3a,37y,252.82h,81.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLDuGUvPZcCkFjwQUGUPsiA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) does a different but similar thing.
Quote from: riiga on February 12, 2021, 10:00:13 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
That Hawaiian-style stripe/broken line is such a cool idea. I'm not sure I realized it wasn't in the MUTCD, but then I've never seen it elsewhere. Gotta wonder who thought to first use it.
It's used in Belgium (https://www.google.se/maps/@50.631586,4.3075279,3a,51.7y,8.25h,84.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4pfEWKVffl2mYFTBM3NPRg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Norway (https://www.google.se/maps/@59.5760164,11.2840085,3a,37y,252.82h,81.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLDuGUvPZcCkFjwQUGUPsiA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) does a different but similar thing.
Man, that Belgium example looks slick!
Quote from: riiga on February 12, 2021, 10:00:13 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
That Hawaiian-style stripe/broken line is such a cool idea. I'm not sure I realized it wasn't in the MUTCD, but then I've never seen it elsewhere. Gotta wonder who thought to first use it.
It's used in Belgium (https://www.google.se/maps/@50.631586,4.3075279,3a,51.7y,8.25h,84.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4pfEWKVffl2mYFTBM3NPRg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Norway (https://www.google.se/maps/@59.5760164,11.2840085,3a,37y,252.82h,81.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLDuGUvPZcCkFjwQUGUPsiA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) does a different but similar thing.
Sorry, should have specified "elsewhere
in the US".
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2021, 01:29:03 PM
Man, that Belgium example looks slick!
I agree, that's very interesting!
The Verrazano Narrows bridge has little to no room for signage on the lower deck, so they do this (https://goo.gl/maps/6J86foxjQHEDfbi18) for the entire bridge, almost 2 miles. With the way those people drive, that might not be ENOUGH warning!
If only they did that for the bridges in PA, because you are basically on your own on the lower decks. This sign (https://goo.gl/maps/QzLSUgMyJ6AEEzxr7) shows just how bad it must be, because they had to put a sign to alert drivers to the weaving!
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2021, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: roadfro on February 10, 2021, 01:14:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2021, 03:55:08 AM
Biggish bump.
This merge (https://goo.gl/maps/EsGDsx8RENjcGz936) from Kaumana Rd to westbound Saddle Road on Hawaii (the big island) has 12 "merge left" arrows painted into the ground.
Hawaii loves pavement markings, and seems to use a lot of them where other states might not use any, but even this might be overkill:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50927910798_cd6f975dff_o.png)
Yeah, super overkill on the arrows. Two or three arrows near the end of the lane would be sufficient. I doubt all the through arrows next to some of the merge arrows are necessary also.
But I do like the use of the stripe/broken line along the acceleration lane–such was discussed elsewhere, but I'm really surprised that application is not in the MUTCD.
What's strange to me is why they'd paint the arrows so early, when the lane is so long. It gets to the point where staying in that lane until the end might be awkward.
That Hawaiian-style stripe/broken line is such a cool idea. I'm not sure I realized it wasn't in the MUTCD, but then I've never seen it elsewhere in the US. Gotta wonder who thought to first use it.
Speaking of excessive lane drop arrows, I noticed when I visited Montana that MDT's standard for such arrows seems to be that groups of three arrows are used where most states would normally use just one, with at least two groups of arrows. I'm not sure if there are any locations with 4 groups, and thus 12 arrows like the Hawaii example, but it's also widespread as opposed to just one location.
Here's an example (https://goo.gl/maps/oY2q9G13oQo9LXqW9) with three sets, for a total of 9 arrows.
(https://i.imgur.com/fOQqy6h.png)
I'm also noticing that Jake's Hawaii picture features a ton of thru arrows as well, even along the direction departing the intersection. That seems even more excessive/more marking than normal to me!
And regarding the broken white line next to the solid white line, I really like how Hawaii uses that too. Maybe we should comment on the MUTCD/suggest experiments for its use?
I do know of another place it was used, Connecticut (maybe other states in the NE as well) sometimes uses it at the end of uphill climbing lanes meant for use by slower traffic, though they may be phasing this out (maybe since it's not MUTCD compliant?) since I saw some places where the solid stripe disappeared after repaving.
Here's an example on I-84. (https://goo.gl/maps/FrM8ZhPi98nnmzKj8) This also shows the last dash before the solid/broken line starts; this is used along the rest of the climbing lane. I like this as well since it clearly defines the climbing lane as having a different use from the thru lanes.
College Blvd in Clute, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.041678,-95.4126937,3a,15.9y,37.37h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGlsPjvZ2VxVwg99EhNMTTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) has some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0526021,-95.4634249,3a,79.5y,106.35h,65.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUb4wgBMP0pOIAWha1Xt0ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at a mall entrance!
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
College Blvd in Clute, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.041678,-95.4126937,3a,15.9y,37.37h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGlsPjvZ2VxVwg99EhNMTTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) has some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0526021,-95.4634249,3a,79.5y,106.35h,65.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUb4wgBMP0pOIAWha1Xt0ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at a mall entrance!
You may be stunned to learn that there are still parts of the US with white center lines.
N Huson St in Tacoma, WA (https://goo.gl/maps/wUvwx4uQdnQDRe2D9) for instance.
From my experience, there are enough other clues to prevent dangerous situations like wrong-way driving. That's typically the case for most situations like what you've linked to.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 24, 2021, 12:08:58 AM
... there are enough other clues to prevent dangerous situations like wrong-way driving. That's typically the case for most situations like what you've linked to.
Yeah I totally agree, but it still feels weird.
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
College Blvd in Clute, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.041678,-95.4126937,3a,15.9y,37.37h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGlsPjvZ2VxVwg99EhNMTTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) has some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0526021,-95.4634249,3a,79.5y,106.35h,65.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUb4wgBMP0pOIAWha1Xt0ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at a mall entrance!
Off topic, but if you turn the camera 180 degrees towards the nearby intersection, that signal has some of the sloppiest wiring I think I've ever seen, for the U.S. anyway.
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0526021,-95.4634249,3a,79.5y,106.35h,65.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUb4wgBMP0pOIAWha1Xt0ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at a mall entrance!
Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 24, 2021, 09:36:06 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0526021,-95.4634249,3a,79.5y,106.35h,65.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUb4wgBMP0pOIAWha1Xt0ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at a mall entrance!
Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.
I don't expect good markings or good signage at private parking lots. They really seem to do their own thing.
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
College Blvd in Clute, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.041678,-95.4126937,3a,15.9y,37.37h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGlsPjvZ2VxVwg99EhNMTTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) has some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0526021,-95.4634249,3a,79.5y,106.35h,65.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUb4wgBMP0pOIAWha1Xt0ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at a mall entrance!
It is infuriatingly common for private parking lots to just use yellow for EVERYTHING. I'm guessing it is cheaper to just use 1 color, instead of 2. Not much anyone can do about it, as the MUTCD doesn't apply to privately owned land.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 24, 2021, 09:36:06 AM
Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.
According to whom are they supposed to?
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2021, 11:13:01 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 24, 2021, 09:36:06 AM
Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.
According to whom are they supposed to?
Yeah, I'm not aware of any actual written rules.
But it may be an unwritten rule of sorts. Needlessly confusing markings or signage leading to a crash could be cause for negligence. Think something like a Japanese grocery store installing
Japanese stop signs (https://i.natgeofe.com/n/5162a945-c026-4c17-8dc6-8eae5b22bbf9/IMG_9555.jpg) in their parking lots, and a driver accidentally interpreting it as a yield sign, failing to stop and then T-boning another car. We're talking very low speeds but shit happens, you know.
My house growing up had a long set of stairs to reach the front door. Although we had no legal requirement to do so, we eventually installed high-traction surfacing on the steps after a couple delivery people fell on the slick steps. It was suggested by someone so we could avoid getting sued for dangerous something-or-other.
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
College Blvd in Clute, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.041678,-95.4126937,3a,15.9y,37.37h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGlsPjvZ2VxVwg99EhNMTTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) has some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white.
If you go back in the street view history you can see the lines used to be white but have gradually faded away to reveal yellow lines underneath. This makes me think this used to be a 2 lane undivided road and they simply painted the white lines on top of the yellow without scrubbing them first. Nice going on the city's part to fail to maintain the markings for long enough to have that happen :P
Quote from: MCRoads on February 24, 2021, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
College Blvd in Clute, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.041678,-95.4126937,3a,15.9y,37.37h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGlsPjvZ2VxVwg99EhNMTTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) has some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0526021,-95.4634249,3a,79.5y,106.35h,65.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUb4wgBMP0pOIAWha1Xt0ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at a mall entrance!
It is infuriatingly common for private parking lots to just use yellow for EVERYTHING. I'm guessing it is cheaper to just use 1 color, instead of 2. Not much anyone can do about it, as the MUTCD doesn't apply to privately owned land.
But if the private land has public access, doesn't the MUTCD still apply?
Quote from: stevashe on February 24, 2021, 07:01:29 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
College Blvd in Clute, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.041678,-95.4126937,3a,15.9y,37.37h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGlsPjvZ2VxVwg99EhNMTTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) has some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white.
If you go back in the street view history you can see the lines used to be white but have gradually faded away to reveal yellow lines underneath. This makes me think this used to be a 2 lane undivided road and they simply painted the white lines on top of the yellow without scrubbing them first. Nice going on the city's part to fail to maintain the markings for long enough to have that happen :P
Someone should go see if a fully-autonomous car driving in the rain can figure it out.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on February 24, 2021, 09:32:26 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on February 23, 2021, 11:43:16 PM
College Blvd in Clute, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.041678,-95.4126937,3a,15.9y,37.37h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGlsPjvZ2VxVwg99EhNMTTA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) has some of the most dangerous road markings I've seen, as these dashed lines should be white, not yellow! In some areas the yellow has faded so much that it appears white. What's weird is the next city over, Lake Jackson, also has this error (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0526021,-95.4634249,3a,79.5y,106.35h,65.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUb4wgBMP0pOIAWha1Xt0ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at a mall entrance!
Off topic, but if you turn the camera 180 degrees towards the nearby intersection, that signal has some of the sloppiest wiring I think I've ever seen, for the U.S. anyway.
That IS awful. Someone just didn't care.
Pixel 2
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2021, 11:13:01 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 24, 2021, 09:36:06 AM
Using only yellow or only white for everything in parking lots is pretty common, unfortunately. Technically they're supposed to comply with the MUTCD, but there's no enforcement mechanism for private property.
According to whom are they supposed to?
According to the manual itself. It's right there in §1A.07:
QuoteStandard:
01 The responsibility for the design, placement, operation, maintenance, and uniformity of traffic control devices shall rest with the public agency or the official having jurisdiction, or, in the case of private roads open to public travel, with the private owner or private official having jurisdiction. 23 CFR 655.603 adopts the MUTCD as the national standard for all traffic control devices installed on any street, highway, bikeway, or private road open to public travel (see definition in Section 1A.13). When a State or other Federal agency manual or supplement is required, that manual or supplement shall be in substantial conformance with the National MUTCD.
02 23 CFR 655.603 also states that traffic control devices on all streets, highways, bikeways, and private roads open to public travel in each State shall be in substantial conformance with standards issued or endorsed by the Federal Highway Administrator.
https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part1/part1a.htm
All throughout part 1 the manual repeatedly includes private roads open to public travel, and in the definitions section, the definition for "Private Road Open to Public Travel" specifically includes roads within shopping centers, although it does exclude the aisles themselves.
The MUTCD references 23 CFR § 655.603 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/23/655.603), which also specifically mentions shopping centers.
So in essence, according to federal law roads in mall parking lots need to comply with the MUTCD, though the actual parking aisles themselves do not.
I don't believe the MUTCD is legally enforceable.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 02:01:32 PM
I don't believe the MUTCD is legally enforceable.
I literally just linked to a federal law that says the MUTCD is the standard. Though as I said several replies ago, there is no enforcement mechanism for private property, because the only teeth the FHWA really has is withholding federal funding, which obviously doesn't apply here.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 25, 2021, 02:11:24 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 02:01:32 PM
I don't believe the MUTCD is legally enforceable.
I literally just linked to a federal law that says the MUTCD is the standard. Though as I said several replies ago, there is no enforcement mechanism for private property, because the only teeth the FHWA really has is withholding federal funding, which obviously doesn't apply here.
Yes, I see. Maybe I need to read a little closer next time.
I would have thought another enforcement mechanism might be
a lawsuit the constant threat of a lawsuit against the private property owner for failure to adhere to that federal law, in the event of an accident caused by confusing markings.
edit: specificity.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 02:47:22 PM
I would have thought another enforcement mechanism might be a lawsuit against the private property owner for failure to adhere to that federal law, in the event of an accident caused by confusing markings.
Well, that's not really an "enforcement mechanism". As in, nobody is proactively enforcing it. If someone gets in a crash and non-compliant markings are a factor, that federal law will probably be cited in a lawsuit, yes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 25, 2021, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 02:47:22 PM
I would have thought another enforcement mechanism might be a lawsuit against the private property owner for failure to adhere to that federal law, in the event of an accident caused by confusing markings.
Well, that's not really an "enforcement mechanism". As in, nobody is proactively enforcing it. If someone gets in a crash and non-compliant markings are a factor, that federal law will probably be cited in a lawsuit, yes.
In a sense, it would be self-enforcement: either follow the MUTCD or risk litigation should an injury occur on your property.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 02:01:32 PM
I don't believe the MUTCD is legally enforceable.
Kentucky has a law stating that the state Secretary of Transportation shall promulgate a manual of uniform devices that any roadway (public or private) must follow. The secretary, through administrative regs, has stated the latest version of the national MUTCD is that manual.
So, at least for KY, the MUTCD is enforceable... However, no one actively enforces it.
Quote from: CardInLex on February 25, 2021, 06:12:29 PM
Kentucky has a law stating that the state Secretary of Transportation shall promulgate a manual of uniform devices that any roadway (public or private) must follow.
How does the State of Kentucky define roads? I would be curious to what extent the MUTCD could apply to roads on private property. For instance, at what point does a parking aisle become a road? Is anything capable of permitting vehicular travel a road? Is my driveway a road? Should my driveway have a dead-end sign? :-D
Quote from: jakeroot on February 25, 2021, 06:16:38 PM
Quote from: CardInLex on February 25, 2021, 06:12:29 PM
Kentucky has a law stating that the state Secretary of Transportation shall promulgate a manual of uniform devices that any roadway (public or private) must follow.
How does the State of Kentucky define roads? I would be curious to what extent the MUTCD could apply to roads on private property. For instance, at what point does a parking aisle become a road? Is anything capable of permitting vehicular travel a road? Is my driveway a road? Should my driveway have a dead-end sign? :-D
Good question. Here is what I can find:
"Definition. "Private road open to public travel" means a private toll road or road, including any adjacent sidewalk that generally runs parallel to the road, within a shopping center, airport, sports arena, or other similar business or recreation facility that:
(1) Is privately owned, but on which the public is allowed to travel without access restrictions; and
(2) Does not include a road within private gated property, except for a gated toll road, in which access is restricted at all times, a parking area, driving aisle within a parking area, or a private grade crossing."
https://casetext.com/regulation/kentucky-administrative-regulations/title-603-transportation-cabinet-department-of-highways/chapter-5-traffic/section-603-kar-5050-uniform-traffic-control-devices
I found this squiggly marking (https://maps.app.goo.gl/sUJRahDgpDz4LVVh9) out in the sticks today near Broken Arrow, OK. I assume it is related to the stop sign, but I have never seen this type of pavement marking before.
Quote from: CoreySamson on November 28, 2024, 05:47:41 PMI found this squiggly marking (https://maps.app.goo.gl/sUJRahDgpDz4LVVh9) out in the sticks today near Broken Arrow, OK. I assume it is related to the stop sign, but I have never seen this type of pavement marking before.
I've seen similar designs in Washington State (though with more obtuse, non-rounded corners), but it was in the British style of indicating an approaching crosswalk. WSDOT calls them zig-zag lines.
https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/zigzag-lines-on-highway-a-mystery-to-some-but-state-says-they-could-help-save-lives
https://maps.app.goo.gl/drjgmwwFpeauam4X9
Virginia likewise used a zigzag line with sharper corners on one or two streets approaching the W&OD Trail and locations that had more bike/pedestrians hit by cars. The lines were supposedly intended to call drivers' attention to the upcoming trail crossing. Most people didn't know what they meant. I don't know if they're still in place, but I don't think those markings are being added elsewhere in Virginia anymore.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 30, 2024, 08:26:14 AMVirginia likewise used a zigzag line with sharper corners on one or two streets approaching the W&OD Trail and locations that had more bike/pedestrians hit by cars. The lines were supposedly intended to call drivers' attention to the upcoming trail crossing. Most people didn't know what they meant. I don't know if they're still in place, but I don't think those markings are being added elsewhere in Virginia anymore.
I know when WSDOT installed the zig-zag markings, at least based on the article, there was the intent to install more of them in the future if they proved successful. I think the Northwest Region (district) of WSDOT has their own standards, so they may be used more often up in that part of the state, but so far I cannot think of any installations of that marking style in any other region of Washington.
That said, based on the state of the markings, they do seem to be maintained, so maybe there has been some success.
There are some British-style zig-zag markings in Hilo, Hawaii. They've been there for at least 15 years, and are maintained.
Not sure how commonly they are used elsewhere in Hawaii:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/eyGt3nLuLLeRAPoB6