I noticed that when the now defunct TWA was in business and one of the world's major carriers, many people were calling it TWA Airlines when the "A" in TWA is for Airlines.
Then you have today people using the term PIN Number for ATM use when its redundant. Also, I have heard some people call and ATM an ATM Machine as well.
Are there any other such cases where redundancy like this occurs in common speech? Even local terms will do that may be used in only one area of the US could be stated.
Some others I've heard:
HIV Virus
PSAT/SAT Test
RAM Memory
LCD Display
UPC Code
But this tendency occurs a lot in common speech. Examples are endless: "hot water heater," "completely full," "past history," etc. You even see it in the Preamble of the Constitution: ". . . in order to form a 'more perfect union' . . ."
Another annoying habit: I know quite a few people who throw unnecessary "un-" prefixes on words, so they "unpeel" an orange (they put the peel back on?) or they "unthaw" food (so they re-freeze it after thawing?).
Quote from: xonhulu on October 13, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
Some others I've heard:
HIV Virus
PSAT/SAT Test
RAM Memory
LCD Display
UPC Code
But this tendency occurs a lot in common speech. Examples are endless: "hot water heater," "completely full," "past history," etc. You even see it in the Preamble of the Constitution: ". . . in order to form a 'more perfect union' . . ."
Another annoying habit: I know quite a few people who throw unnecessary "un-" prefixes on words, so they "unpeel" an orange (they put the peel back on?) or they "unthaw" food (so they re-freeze it after thawing?).
What about the word baggage claim? In Spanish its reclamo, that translates to reclaim in our language. You are not reclaiming it as you already own it or it was not even lost or given away in the sense.
How about a pair of pants? Its not two of the same item, but only one item. Then why is it plural as well?
Why are all amounts of fish in the singular? If someone uses fishes in their vocabulary it is considered improper, but most people do it anyhow. Properly it is: I have caught 3 fish, next time I hope to catch 5 fish on my trip. Not, I caught 3 fishes and I hope to catch 5 fishes next time, which is what many would say.
silly roadman65 thread
There's probably examples in every case where an acronym interferes with the way we normally construct sentences. The human brain doesn't "unpack" the acronym the way a computer would when processing language; instead, we treat it the same as a regular word. Once I've heard a lot this semester is "HTTP Protocol".
Road related, from the Alliance for I-69 Texas (http://www.i69texasalliance.com/NewsUpdates/update7.26.12%20houston.html):
Quote
Each designation requires an extensive submittal by the TxDOT and an exhaustive review by the federal FHWA to see that standards are being met.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2012, 11:06:05 AM
I noticed that when the now defunct TWA was in business and one of the world's major carriers, many people were calling it TWA Airlines when the "A" in TWA is for Airlines.
Then you have today people using the term PIN Number for ATM use when its redundant. Also, I have heard some people call and ATM an ATM Machine as well.
Are there any other such cases where redundancy like this occurs in common speech? Even local terms will do that may be used in only one area of the US could be stated.
SSN Number
PIN number is one that I sometimes intentionally use at work–in an Oklahoma accent, "PIN" and "pen" sounds the same, and I certainly do not want the customers to use their pen on the machine.
RAS syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAS_syndrome) on Wikipedia explains this phenomenon pretty well.
VIN Number
LED Light
Quote from: DaBigE on October 14, 2012, 02:20:08 AM
LED Light
Nope. The light that the diodes emit is not the same as the physical light (bulb).
'Reiterate' means to say something again...again.
The most common ones I hear have already been mentioned: PIN and VIN.
Quote from: NE2 on October 14, 2012, 03:15:56 AM
Quote from: DaBigE on October 14, 2012, 02:20:08 AM
LED Light
Nope. The light that the diodes emit is not the same as the physical light (bulb).
Does the average consumer care about that technicality? Highly doubt it. LEDs emit light by definition, how or how much it does is not the topic of this thread.
Quote from: DaBigE on October 14, 2012, 01:41:25 PM
Quote from: NE2 on October 14, 2012, 03:15:56 AM
Quote from: DaBigE on October 14, 2012, 02:20:08 AM
LED Light
Nope. The light that the diodes emit is not the same as the physical light (bulb).
Does the average consumer care about that technicality? Highly doubt it. LEDs emit light by definition, how or how much it does is not the topic of this thread.
The average consumer puts their PIN number in the ATM machine, so...
Quote from: deanej on October 13, 2012, 06:55:22 PM
There's probably examples in every case where an acronym interferes with the way we normally construct sentences. The human brain doesn't "unpack" the acronym the way a computer would when processing language; instead, we treat it the same as a regular word. Once I've heard a lot this semester is "HTTP Protocol".
You are right about this as, for example, Scuba used to be S.C.U.B.A that stands for Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus, but over time it went from acronym to an actual word. Most people today do not know where the name Scuba came from, but nonetheless it was an acronym.
The same for the Disney Theme Park called EPCOT that originally was an acronym for Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow. Now the purpose of the original name is not that anymore and has become a household word that even FDOT has changed the word EPCOT to Epcot on area road signs including recent I-4 guide signs.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2012, 01:31:42 PMWhat about the word baggage claim? In Spanish its reclamo, that translates to reclaim in our language. You are not reclaiming it as you already own it or it was not even lost or given away in the sense.
"Baggage claim" is an Americanism--in British English (as seen in airports like Heathrow, etc.) the phrase is "Baggage reclaim." The act of reclamation being referred to is taking back into your possession a thing that you checked in when you started your flight. (You can continue to own a thing that is not actually in your possession.)
QuoteWhy are all amounts of fish in the singular? If someone uses fishes in their vocabulary it is considered improper, but most people do it anyhow. Properly it is: I have caught 3 fish, next time I hope to catch 5 fish on my trip. Not, I caught 3 fishes and I hope to catch 5 fishes next time, which is what many would say.
Not in my experience--when I hear plural "fishes" (except in the context of traditional phrases like "miracle of the loaves and fishes") I instantly suspect the person using it is a deaf ASL signer who effectively uses English as a "first and half" language. It is really very jarring.
I regularly hear people use the abbreviations "AM" and "PM" together with "morning" and "afternoon" or "evening." For example, "The Broncos and the Chargers will play at 8:30 PM Monday night." The use of "PM" renders "night" unnecessary and redundant.
Another one that derives from ignorance of a foreign term is "Please RSVP." People say that constantly as though "RSVP" were a verb. It's not. It's not even a word. The "R" stands for a verb, however. "RSVP" is an abbreviation for
répondez s'il vous plaît, literally "please respond" or "respond please," so if you say "Please RSVP," you're saying "please respond please" (or "please please respond," which I guess could constitute begging). I suppose I've seen worse, though–I recall at least one invitation that said "Call for RSVP," which led me to assume the sender thought "RSVP" was some sort of synonym for "reservations."
Quote from: roadman65 on October 14, 2012, 02:26:18 PM
....
The same for the Disney Theme Park called EPCOT that originally was an acronym for Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow. Now the purpose of the original name is not that anymore and has become a household word that even FDOT has changed the word EPCOT to Epcot on area road signs including recent I-4 guide signs.
Disney themselves now spell it as "Epcot" on the Disney World website and in other promotional materials.
"hot water heater". Why do you want to heat up water that's already hot?
Quote from: BamaZeus on October 15, 2012, 11:53:14 AM
"hot water heater". Why do you want to heat up water that's already hot?
Didn't know my brother had joined the forum! :-D He says that all the time.
I once had a boss whose pet peeve was the use of the term "ink pen." He said by definition, a pen has ink in it.
(Warning, off-color remark follows).
Once when someone questioned him about it, he grabbed his crotch and said, "There's cum in here, but I don't call it my cum dick!"
Foreign language ones happen all the time....
I eat roast beef au jus. I don't eat it with au jus sauce.
I eat quesadillas. I don't eat cheese quesadillas (Taco Bell, I'm looking at you).
I like burritos con queso. I don't like burritos with con queso (or with con queso cheese).
'Please RSVP' is probably my all time biggest wedding pet peeve, along with 'Have you RSVPed yet?'
Has anyone heard of Halloween Eve? I like to call it October 30 instead. Then there's Christmas Eve Day for December 24. I think I'm going to start calling December 22 'Christmas Eve Eve Eve Day'.
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
'Please RSVP' is probably my all time biggest wedding pet peeve, along with 'Have you RSVPed yet?'
the RSVP one, which has come up several times in this thread, is to me the least peevy - it is a result of applying prescriptive terms to language (see: Academie Francaise) as opposed to letting language evolve by itself.
in the US, "RSVP" is a verb without any knowledge of what it means in the original French, because we borrowed it from the original French many centuries ago! sure, it's ignorant, but it's nowhere near the most ignorant use of language we've got going. (I'm looking at you, "your" vs. "you're".)
while we're borrowing French poorly, the plural of "hors d'oeuvre" is "hors d'oeuvre", not "hors d'oeuvres". but, whatever. Just as long as we don't spell it "orderves"!
Quote from: xonhulu on October 13, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
But this tendency occurs a lot in common speech. Examples are endless: "hot water heater," "completely full," "past history," etc. You even see it in the Preamble of the Constitution: ". . . in order to form a 'more perfect union' . . ."
I don't think "more perfect union" is applicable here. I think literally "more" is not an appropriate descriptor for "perfect", as something is either perfect, or it is not, but as far as figurative speech goes, it's easy to understand what Madison et. al. were getting at, so I don't mind it.
it is, in my opinion, not a redundancy like "completely full", but rather a mildly skewed metaphor that
allows "perfect" to take on shades of meaning. given that unions can indeed have degrees of togetherness, from Bosnia-Herzegovina to Borg Collective, "more perfect" is a valid descriptor in my world.
(but, then again, I am the farthest thing from a language prescriptivist. I make up words all the time! see "peevy" in my previous post in this thread.)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 15, 2012, 01:37:37 PM
while we're borrowing French poorly, the plural of "hors d'oeuvre" is "hors d'oeuvre", not "hors d'oeuvres". but, whatever. Just as long as we don't spell it "orderves"!
My dad calls them
whores' ovaries.
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
I eat quesadillas. I don't eat cheese quesadillas (Taco Bell, I'm looking at you).
A friend of mine actually got called out on this at Qdoba the other day when he ordered a "quesadilla with grilled chicken and cheese". The employee pointed out "you know, you don't need to say cheese. That's what the 'quesa' in 'quesadilla' means!"
Admittedly though, that is one I often purposefully do to distinguish from a chicken quesadilla, etc.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 15, 2012, 11:35:59 AM
I regularly hear people use the abbreviations "AM" and "PM" together with "morning" and "afternoon" or "evening." For example, "The Broncos and the Chargers will play at 8:30 PM Monday night." The use of "PM" renders "night" unnecessary and redundant.
Well, when comparing the visible position of the sun in our sky, during the summer months, 8am and 8pm might appear the same, if one was not aware of the actual time of day...although, I'm using a rather far-fetched example (although a handful of my day-nights in college were similarly flip-flopped). Otherwise, I'm being a little pedantic...but perhaps people like to refer to a non-specific time of day and refine it with an actual time for emphasis.
Another foreign-language example: "vegetable con carne" presented as the vegetarian alternative to "chili con carne" (!).
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 15, 2012, 01:37:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
'Please RSVP' is probably my all time biggest wedding pet peeve, along with 'Have you RSVPed yet?'
the RSVP one, which has come up several times in this thread, is to me the least peevy - it is a result of applying prescriptive terms to language (see: Academie Francaise) as opposed to letting language evolve by itself.
in the US, "RSVP" is a verb without any knowledge of what it means in the original French, because we borrowed it from the original French many centuries ago! sure, it's ignorant, but it's nowhere near the most ignorant use of language we've got going. (I'm looking at you, "your" vs. "you're".)
while we're borrowing French poorly, the plural of "hors d'oeuvre" is "hors d'oeuvre", not "hors d'oeuvres". but, whatever. Just as long as we don't spell it "orderves"!
I've only recently (within the past 10 years) started to see "RSVP" used as a verb or as a synonym for "reservations." When I was a kid I remember invitations would simply say, for example, "RSVP 867-5309" or whatever. Everybody understood that this meant to call Jenny to say whether or not you were coming. I don't understand why, if you want to say "Please RSVP," you don't just say "Please respond."
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 15, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
I eat quesadillas. I don't eat cheese quesadillas (Taco Bell, I'm looking at you).
A friend of mine actually got called out on this at Qdoba the other day when he ordered a "quesadilla with grilled chicken and cheese". The employee pointed out "you know, you don't need to say cheese. That's what the 'quesa' in 'quesadilla' means!"
Admittedly though, that is one I often purposefully do to distinguish from a chicken quesadilla, etc.
At Taco Bell, I will order a 'plain quesadilla'. The person on the other end asks, 'a cheese quesadilla?' I want to reply, 'What other kind is there?'
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 16, 2012, 10:04:28 AMI don't understand why, if you want to say "Please RSVP," you don't just say "Please respond."
for various reasons, "Please RSVP" sounds more classy (even though it really isn't)
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2012, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 15, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
I eat quesadillas. I don't eat cheese quesadillas (Taco Bell, I'm looking at you).
A friend of mine actually got called out on this at Qdoba the other day when he ordered a "quesadilla with grilled chicken and cheese". The employee pointed out "you know, you don't need to say cheese. That's what the 'quesa' in 'quesadilla' means!"
Admittedly though, that is one I often purposefully do to distinguish from a chicken quesadilla, etc.
At Taco Bell, I will order a 'plain quesadilla'. The person on the other end asks, 'a cheese quesadilla?' I want to reply, 'What other kind is there?'
When I worked at a pizza shop, I always thought pretty much the same thing when people would order a "cheese pizza", as opposed to just using the word "plain".
At least once, I did ask someone, ordering 2 pizzas by saying something like "I'd like a large pepperoni pizza, and a large cheese pizza": "Would you like cheese on that pepperoni pizza?". They didn't seem to get it, and were just like "Well, yeah..."
Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 16, 2012, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2012, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 15, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
I eat quesadillas. I don't eat cheese quesadillas (Taco Bell, I'm looking at you).
A friend of mine actually got called out on this at Qdoba the other day when he ordered a "quesadilla with grilled chicken and cheese". The employee pointed out "you know, you don't need to say cheese. That's what the 'quesa' in 'quesadilla' means!"
Admittedly though, that is one I often purposefully do to distinguish from a chicken quesadilla, etc.
At Taco Bell, I will order a 'plain quesadilla'. The person on the other end asks, 'a cheese quesadilla?' I want to reply, 'What other kind is there?'
When I worked at a pizza shop, I always thought pretty much the same thing when people would order a "cheese pizza", as opposed to just using the word "plain".
At least once, I did ask someone, ordering 2 pizzas by saying something like "I'd like a large pepperoni pizza, and a large cheese pizza": "Would you like cheese on that pepperoni pizza?". They didn't seem to get it, and were just like "Well, yeah..."
I say "cheese pizza", although I understand your point. The subtle difference is that the word
quesadilla actually comes from the Spanish word for cheese. I have personally had pizza with no cheese, so it is a possiblity; a cheeseless quesadilla, OTOH, is a contradiction in terms. Cheeseless pizza is like a salad without lettuce: not the norm, but certainly possible. A cheeseless quesadilla is like a virgin martini: an impossiblity.
As for RSVP, I imagine some people using "please" is because if the recipient doesn't know "RSVP" includes "please" in it, they might interpret it as an imperative, which could come off as rude.
"Ink pen" is one that I've caught myself using. Again, this is partly because in an Oklahoma accent "pen" and "pin" sound the same, so it disambiguates between an "ink pen" and a "safety pin" or something. I've also found myself using "ink pen" to stress that the referred-to pen is just an ordinary pedestrian pen. I once expressed to a Michigander friend that I was amazed that she was able to draw a rather beautiful work of art with "just an ink pen". When this confused her, I realized that I was using "ink pen" to specify that the pen used was a boring old ballpoint rather than a fancy specialized pen designed for inking artwork.
Quote from: NE2 on October 14, 2012, 03:15:56 AM
Quote from: DaBigE on October 14, 2012, 02:20:08 AM
LED Light
Nope. The light that the diodes emit is not the same as the physical light (bulb).
It's a light-emitting light.
Quote from: Special K on October 17, 2012, 07:47:22 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 14, 2012, 03:15:56 AM
Quote from: DaBigE on October 14, 2012, 02:20:08 AM
LED Light
Nope. The light that the diodes emit is not the same as the physical light (bulb).
It's a light-emitting light.
In point of fact, the phrase
LED light would most commonly refer to an assembly of many light-emitting diodes. For example, the taillight of you car could be composed of multiple LEDs, while the whole assembly would still be referred to as a
light (as in, 'your left rear light is out').
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2012, 07:51:10 PMI say "cheese pizza", although I understand your point. The subtle difference is that the word quesadilla actually comes from the Spanish word for cheese. I have personally had pizza with no cheese, so it is a possiblity; a cheeseless quesadilla, OTOH, is a contradiction in terms. Cheeseless pizza is like a salad without lettuce: not the norm, but certainly possible. A cheeseless quesadilla is like a virgin martini: an impossiblity.
I've had chocolate pizza. Had far more lettuce-less salads (given in the US a salad is typically 80% the blandest lettuce possible and then some other stuff, I can see what you mean): eg tomato and mozzarella, pasta salad, bean salad and my favourite - rocket and watercress salad (though those are, of course, leaves, while not being actually lettuce). In fact, I've probably had about as many leaves-less salads as with-leaves salads.
I wouldn't use the term 'cheese pizza', but certainly menus would list the cheese as a topping, 'Margherita' is typically considered posh, so 'cheese and tomato' is typically what those pizzas are called if not trying to be upmarket. However, cheese-less pizzas - when I've actually seen them - have normally said that they were cheese-less in large letters and arrows pointing to it.
I've heard the term "cheese pizza" used, but if I want a pizza with no toppings (say on a Friday during Lent) I ask for "plain cheese."
I associate the term "cheese pizza" with the Friday school lunch menu when I was in grammar school–Friday was pizza day and the menu listed "Cheese pizza" and "Meat/cheese pizza." (I never tried either one, always brought my lunch.) I always found the "Meat/cheese" description amusing because everybody else says "pepperoni" or "sausage" or whatever and so the "Meat/cheese" fit right in with the old "mystery meat" description of school food.
Just about every pizza joint I've ever patronized does not treat the regular cheese as a topping and simply presumes it's part of the pizza. The people who don't eat dairy products (vega-whatever-they-call-themselves) have to make a special request for a pizza without cheese.
OK, but the fact remains that the term 'cheese pizza' is no more redundant than 'sugar cookie'.
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2012, 10:25:38 AM
OK, but the fact remains that the term 'cheese pizza' is no more redundant than 'sugar cookie'.
Cheese pizza to differentiate from "cheese" pizza.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 17, 2012, 05:23:00 AM
this is partly because in an Oklahoma accent "pen" and "pin" sound the same
is this the accent in which "ice" and "ass" sound the same? I think it was a running gag on something set in north Texas, but Oklahoma is close to there.
There's a term for this kind of redundancy:
RAS Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAS_syndrome)
("Redundant Acronym Syndrome Syndrome")
Quote from: Special K on October 17, 2012, 11:11:55 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2012, 10:25:38 AM
OK, but the fact remains that the term 'cheese pizza' is no more redundant than 'sugar cookie'.
Cheese pizza to differentiate from "cheese" pizza.
The only way I can get this sentence to make sense to me is to read it as an imperative. So, OK, I shall henceforth cheese my pizza in order to differentiate it from "cheese" pizza, which "I" assume is "not" "made" with "real" "cheese".
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
Foreign language ones happen all the time....
I eat roast beef au jus. I don't eat it with au jus sauce.
I eat quesadillas. I don't eat cheese quesadillas (Taco Bell, I'm looking at you).
I like burritos con queso. I don't like burritos with con queso (or with con queso cheese).
'Please RSVP' is probably my all time biggest wedding pet peeve, along with 'Have you RSVPed yet?'
Has anyone heard of Halloween Eve? I like to call it October 30 instead. Then there's Christmas Eve Day for December 24. I think I'm going to start calling December 22 'Christmas Eve Eve Eve Day'.
Growing up as kids, we used to call December 23rd 'Chirstmas Adam" (the logic is that, if you believe the Book of Genesis, Adam came before Eve). But Halloween, which is the day before All Saints Day (November 1st) , was originally called "All Hallows Eve". So calling October 30th "Haloween Eve" makes no sense at all.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 17, 2012, 12:01:27 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 17, 2012, 05:23:00 AM
this is partly because in an Oklahoma accent "pen" and "pin" sound the same
is this the accent in which "ice" and "ass" sound the same? I think it was a running gag on something set in north Texas, but Oklahoma is close to there.
That's a Texas accent, which is like a much more extreme version of the milder Oklahoma accent. You only start running into that sort of thing south of Ardmore or so (though I have a coworker with that accent, and she's from Ada, so maybe it varies).
Quote from: roadman on October 17, 2012, 02:58:47 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
Foreign language ones happen all the time....
I eat roast beef au jus. I don't eat it with au jus sauce.
I eat quesadillas. I don't eat cheese quesadillas (Taco Bell, I'm looking at you).
I like burritos con queso. I don't like burritos with con queso (or with con queso cheese).
'Please RSVP' is probably my all time biggest wedding pet peeve, along with 'Have you RSVPed yet?'
Has anyone heard of Halloween Eve? I like to call it October 30 instead. Then there's Christmas Eve Day for December 24. I think I'm going to start calling December 22 'Christmas Eve Eve Eve Day'.
Growing up as kids, we used to call December 23rd 'Chirstmas Adam" (the logic is that, if you believe the Book of Genesis, Adam came before Eve). But Halloween, which is the day before All Saints Day (November 1st) , was originally called "All Hallows Eve". So calling October 30th "Haloween Eve" makes no sense at all.
If you flip back one chapter (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen%201:24-31&version=HCSB) in Genesis, then you'll find Adam and Eve both being created on the sixth day, so it gets a little tricky to work backwards from December 23. But my alternative would be to call December 20 'Christmas Sky (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen%201:6-8&version=HCSB)' and December 19 'Christmas Night (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen%201:3-5&version=HCSB)'. Anything before December 19 would be 'Christmas Nihilo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo)', and exists only in Alanland (http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Alan). Five is right out. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade_of_Antioch)
I believe November 1 is All Saints Day a.k.a. All Hallows Day, making October 31 All Hallows Eve ergo Halloween. That would make October 30 Halloween Eve. Or Hallowe'e'e'e'n.
Isn't October 30 Devil's night? </The Crow>
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_l6wmnffwdM1qz7k8b.jpg&hash=edd0b6b4a41f3efcc7b9b9f9bc5a28cbf967bfff)
:-D :happy: