Once again, I'm seeking information on the routing of US highways in a city, where the state DOT map and the signing are suspect.
This time it's Memphis.
Can anyone provide a definitive routing for US 51, US 72 and US 78 in Memphis?
I'm probably going to be there this coming Sunday, 11/4.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 28, 2012, 03:14:32 PM
Once again, I'm seeking information on the routing of US highways in a city, where the state DOT map and the signing are suspect.
This time it's Memphis.
Can anyone provide a definitive routing for US 51, US 72 and US 78 in Memphis?
I'm probably going to be there this coming Sunday, 11/4.
72 begins at 64/70/79: corner of Poplar and E Parkway North. 72 is co-signed as TN 57
51 is Danny Thomas Blvd /Thomas St coming in from the north, south to Union (64/70/79) then goes east to Bellevue by the hospital, then south, eventually becoming Elvis Presley Blvd.
78 ends at 64/70/79, but I've not quite got that one down... there's a maze of one-way streets in that area.
Quote from: US71 on October 28, 2012, 06:30:52 PM
78 ends at 64/70/79, but I've not quite got that one down... there's a maze of one-way streets in that area.
Everything I've seen indicates 2nd Street.
Have my route planned. In on 78, loop back around on the one-ways and go out 72 to Germantown/Collierville, back in on 385 to 240, then 240 north to I-40. Will go into Arkansas and reverse direction onto 55 south, then back into Mississippi and through town on 51, heading north. This will clinch 51 and 78 for me, will leave only that portion of 72 between I-24 and Chattanooga, and will finish off the entire interstate system in Tennessee until 69 and 269 are opened.
I expect traffic on a Sunday to be light. Much lighter than what I found on US 60 through the Hampton Roads area on a Friday.
Quote from: US71 on October 28, 2012, 06:30:52 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 28, 2012, 03:14:32 PM
Once again, I'm seeking information on the routing of US highways in a city, where the state DOT map and the signing are suspect.
This time it's Memphis.
Can anyone provide a definitive routing for US 51, US 72 and US 78 in Memphis?
I'm probably going to be there this coming Sunday, 11/4.
72 begins at 64/70/79: corner of Poplar and E Parkway North. 72 is co-signed as TN 57
72 begins at US 51, at Union and Bellevue.
Quote from: bugo on November 01, 2012, 02:34:10 PM
72 begins at US 51, at Union and Bellevue.
Photos I've seen show it signed along with 64, 70 and 79 in several placed.
Quote from: bugo on November 01, 2012, 02:34:10 PM
Quote from: US71 on October 28, 2012, 06:30:52 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 28, 2012, 03:14:32 PM
Once again, I'm seeking information on the routing of US highways in a city, where the state DOT map and the signing are suspect.
This time it's Memphis.
Can anyone provide a definitive routing for US 51, US 72 and US 78 in Memphis?
I'm probably going to be there this coming Sunday, 11/4.
72 begins at 64/70/79: corner of Poplar and E Parkway North. 72 is co-signed as TN 57
72 begins at US 51, at Union and Bellevue.
That's what Wikipedia says, but I recall no signage past Poplar.
OK, I drove the routes today. Came in on US 78 from Tupelo. Signage shows it turning right onto East Street. There is no sign showing the subsequent left turn onto MLK (formerly Linden), but there is signage going east indicating the turn. Also no signage at the end of the route at 2nd street, except a "To I-55" marker.
After I got myself situated to head north on 3rd Street, I noticed that US 64/70/79 and To I-40/240 signage is present, but hard to see, at Union. US 72 is well-marked along with 64, 70 and 79 going east, but signage where 64/70/79 turn off Union onto Parkway is not that great. US 72 continues on Union to Poplar. Heading west on 72, there is no signage indicating the route exits Poplar to Union.
Unusually, US 72's hidden state route (Secondary 57) is signed pretty much all the way to Collierville.
US 51 is pretty well-signed going north. It's not signed, but a short stretch of Union (between Bellevue and Danny Thomas) carries five two-digit US routes: 51, 64, 70, 72 and 79. Is that a record?
Spotted an independent TN Primary 1 posting along US 51 north of downtown. Also noted that overheads on I-55 south at the state line have state-name I-55 and I-69 shields.
Definitely felt like I was traveling through the "low-rent" area of Memphis on both Lamar (US 78) and Elvis Presley (US 51).
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2012, 10:41:45 PM
Definitely felt like I was traveling through the "low-rent" area of Memphis on both Lamar (US 78) and Elvis Presley (US 51).
Did you stop at the mall on 51 to see the low hanging 4-Way traffic signal? ;)
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2012, 10:41:45 PM
Definitely felt like I was traveling through the "low-rent" area of Memphis on both Lamar (US 78) and Elvis Presley (US 51).
That's because you were. The notorious Lamar Terrace apartments (now razed) were on the SW corner of I-240 and Lamar Blvd. However, just 3-4 blocks east is a very nice neighborhood of mixed-use housing.
rte66man
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2012, 10:41:45 PMAlso noted that overheads on I-55 south at the state line have state-name I-55 and I-69 shields.
Lest anyone salivate, they were Mississippi shields, not Tennessee.
any Tennessee state named shields around? I haven't seen one since the first day of 2005.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 15, 2012, 11:07:44 AM
any Tennessee state named shields around? I haven't seen one since the first day of 2005.
I saw none.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 15, 2012, 04:02:12 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 15, 2012, 11:07:44 AM
any Tennessee state named shields around? I haven't seen one since the first day of 2005.
I saw none.
you'd imagine some forgotten corner of Memphis would have one.
signage is somewhat spotty in downtown Memphis as well for all the routes.
US 51 north of Memphis tends to run through some of the hoods and lower income areas for about 3 or 4 miles before it reaches unmarked TN 300 (future I-69) and the area starts to improve. Further north you will eventually see secondary Route 385 signage - they don't sign TN 385 until that mainline itself. Photos were too poor of quality to post - going into sunlight and nowhere to pull over.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 15, 2012, 11:07:44 AM
any Tennessee state named shields around? I haven't seen one since the first day of 2005.
You mean the old triangles with TENN? There was one in Madisonville about 5-6 years ago.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4404/37375049785_b4270e05f2_w_d.jpg)
Quote from: US71 on October 15, 2022, 10:20:27 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 15, 2012, 11:07:44 AM
any Tennessee state named shields around? I haven't seen one since the first day of 2005.
You mean the old triangles with TENN? There was one in Madisonville about 5-6 years ago.
The standard Tennessee state route marker has the state name, on the bottom within an outline of the state borders. Like the two here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25062.msg2768341;topicseen#msg2768341) (in a different part of the state, but there are similar markers in the Memphis area).
Quote from: oscar on October 15, 2022, 10:40:46 PM
Quote from: US71 on October 15, 2022, 10:20:27 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 15, 2012, 11:07:44 AM
any Tennessee state named shields around? I haven't seen one since the first day of 2005.
You mean the old triangles with TENN? There was one in Madisonville about 5-6 years ago.
The standard Tennessee state route marker has the state name, on the bottom within an outline of the state borders. Like the two here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25062.msg2768341;topicseen#msg2768341) (in a different part of the state, but there are similar markers in the Memphis area).
Those look like the current standard.
US 72 and US 78 should both end at I-240. US 51 should be realigned to I-240 along its western part of the loop and use TN 300.
Then US 64 use I-40 from I-55 in AR to bypass the city streets leaving both US 70 and US 79 as a problem to put on the I-240 loop to bypass Memphis, so it's through town routing can't be avoided even with Indy logic.
Quote from: US71 on October 15, 2022, 10:44:01 PM
Quote from: oscar on October 15, 2022, 10:40:46 PM
Quote from: US71 on October 15, 2022, 10:20:27 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 15, 2012, 11:07:44 AM
any Tennessee state named shields around? I haven't seen one since the first day of 2005.
You mean the old triangles with TENN? There was one in Madisonville about 5-6 years ago.
The standard Tennessee state route marker has the state name, on the bottom within an outline of the state borders. Like the two here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25062.msg2768341;topicseen#msg2768341) (in a different part of the state, but there are similar markers in the Memphis area).
Those look like the current standard.
From 2016:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52485219266_f680fbc9d3.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nXWt8y)
Tiptonville
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52485489114_7d89c97e89.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nXXRm7)
Clarksville
And my favorite east of Springfield:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52485216696_68be0ee90d.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nXWsnf)
Also from 2016:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52484724317_24b9ac87d1.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nXTVZX)
near Union City
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52484720967_56f197ae50.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nXTV1c)
I-40 east of Memphis
When I was growing up in Tennessee the triangle was the statewide standard. The rectangular signs came along later. It seems like they are designating primary (rectangular) and secondary (triangle) state highways now.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2012, 10:41:45 PM
Unusually, US 72's hidden state route (Secondary 57) is signed pretty much all the way to Collierville.
TN 57 was always signed along with US 72 through Memphis when I was growing up there. They separate in Collierville, with US 72 ducking down into Mississippi and TN 57 continuing eastward toward Pickwick Lake.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 04, 2012, 10:41:45 PM
US 51 is pretty well-signed going north. It's not signed, but a short stretch of Union (between Bellevue and Danny Thomas) carries five two-digit US routes: 51, 64, 70, 72 and 79. Is that a record?
Seems like when I was growing up there was a short stretch downtown that was signed with six US highways -- 51, 64, 70, 72, 78, and 79. Maybe along Second and Third Streets?
Quote from: rlb2024 on December 12, 2022, 07:33:10 PM
When I was growing up in Tennessee the triangle was the statewide standard. The rectangular signs came along later. It seems like they are designating primary (rectangular) and secondary (triangle) state highways now.
That started around the mid-1980s. Part of it was a major expansion of the secondary network.
I was surprised that Memphis was poor in signage compared to Nashville which in 1990 did an excellent job in signing all US routes there.
Then again 32 years a lot can happen. Enough for that city to neglect signage and for a young user on here to see post neglect signage in their lives, can mean that in perhaps 1990 Memphis was better at shield placement then as well.
Chattanooga is another with bad signage including US 27 at I-24 failing to co sign it with I-24 EB once the I-124 freeway ends. Plus even to ignore I-124 is bad judgement even if the route is short in length.
In my experience, signage is terrible in Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, and Chattanooga. The signage in Knoxville was improved when they signed a reroute of US 11/US 70, but there are still some omissions in places that make it difficult to follow numbered routes.
This may be a city thing in general. KYTC's District 7 has done a good job of signing in downtown Lexington, in large part due to some reroutings of US 27 and US 60, but in Louisville, it's awful.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 01:08:30 PM
In my experience, signage is terrible in Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, and Chattanooga. The signage in Knoxville was improved when they signed a reroute of US 11/US 70, but there are still some omissions in places that make it difficult to follow numbered routes.
This may be a city thing in general. KYTC's District 7 has done a good job of signing in downtown Lexington, in large part due to some reroutings of US 27 and US 60, but in Louisville, it's awful.
Kind of figured that the adequate signage in 1990 could be gone 32 years later. It seems many road departments don't place urgency anymore on shields and guide signs. Usually you may see a sign or two get installed, but mostly when a planned improvements project commenced. NJDOT did that with the Exit 52 sign bridge on I-295 when it failed a safety inspection. It took till recently to replace that assembly that was removed ages ago. And more recently NJDOT removed theI-280 WB guides at Exit 13 and replaced with tiny signs until NJDOT has their next overall sign replacements for I-280 to put back the standard guides there which is whenever.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 01:08:30 PM
In my experience, signage is terrible in Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, and Chattanooga. The signage in Knoxville was improved when they signed a reroute of US 11/US 70, but there are still some omissions in places that make it difficult to follow numbered routes.
This may be a city thing in general. KYTC's District 7 has done a good job of signing in downtown Lexington, in large part due to some reroutings of US 27 and US 60, but in Louisville, it's awful.
It seems that urban routings of numbered non-Interstate roads are a low signage priority in many states. LaDOTD has improved signage of rural routes since the new state shield style was adopted in 2008, but urban signage is skimpy or sometimes missing altogether. I suspect it is a lesser priority since most people in cities are navigating by street name, not by route number. Kinds of calls into question the need for numbered surface routes in many cities.
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on December 14, 2022, 03:33:53 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 01:08:30 PM
In my experience, signage is terrible in Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, and Chattanooga. The signage in Knoxville was improved when they signed a reroute of US 11/US 70, but there are still some omissions in places that make it difficult to follow numbered routes.
This may be a city thing in general. KYTC's District 7 has done a good job of signing in downtown Lexington, in large part due to some reroutings of US 27 and US 60, but in Louisville, it's awful.
It seems that urban routings of numbered non-Interstate roads are a low signage priority in many states. LaDOTD has improved signage of rural routes since the new state shield style was adopted in 2008, but urban signage is skimpy or sometimes missing altogether. I suspect it is a lesser priority since most people in cities are navigating by street name, not by route number. Kinds of calls into question the need for numbered surface routes in many cities.
That's why Indy has all routes on its Beltway. Heck even Fort Wayne has US 24, US 30, and US 33 on the interstates to avoid the awkwardness of urban navigation.
Our Nations Capital is one that should realign both US 1 and US 50 to I-495 like INDOT has as DCDOT removed all signage for those routes in Washington. RI too should relocate US 1 to I-95 through Providence as well as good luck following it the through the city.
It's a shame that cities have neglected urban signage throughout America.
I believe the Indiana examples are related to the cities not wanting to have routes through their cities- numerous cities have their state/US routes directed around them.
Quote from: Mapmikey on December 15, 2022, 09:40:41 PM
I believe the Indiana examples are related to the cities not wanting to have routes through their cities- numerous cities have their state/US routes directed around them.
Wonder if Indiana's statewide mileage cap plays a role in that?
^ That's part of it, but as I recall from the time, INDOT has also been working to reduce their mileage and resultant maintenance responsibilities regardless of the mileage cap.
Quote from: froggie on December 16, 2022, 04:35:09 PM
^ That's part of it, but as I recall from the time, INDOT has also been working to reduce their mileage and resultant maintenance responsibilities regardless of the mileage cap.
caltransing /KAL-tranz-ing/ (v.) doing as much as possible to offload state maintenance to cities, towns, and counties. Can be pronounced /kal-tran-ZING/ if the joke is good enough.
i generally don't understand the lack of signage to begin with. like aren't signs cheap to replace? or is there some bureaucratic redtape making it unnecessarily expensive to replace signage?
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on December 27, 2022, 09:56:39 PM
i generally don't understand the lack of signage to begin with. like aren't signs cheap to replace? or is there some bureaucratic redtape making it unnecessarily expensive to replace signage?
I believe bureaucratic apathy is the cause.
The extent to which that apathy is the result of limited utility for navigation (e.g., if you're driving Memphis city streets, you're most likely to be relying on street names anyway), or the general disdain the state government has for most things "Memphis", is debatable.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 28, 2022, 08:53:44 AM
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on December 27, 2022, 09:56:39 PM
i generally don't understand the lack of signage to begin with. like aren't signs cheap to replace? or is there some bureaucratic redtape making it unnecessarily expensive to replace signage?
I believe bureaucratic apathy is the cause.
The extent to which that apathy is the result of limited utility for navigation (e.g., if you're driving Memphis city streets, you're most likely to be relying on street names anyway), or the general disdain the state government has for most things "Memphis", is debatable.
Not just Memphis. In my experience, Chattanooga and Nashville are just as bad, and Knoxville used to be.
Apologies for the bump, but I'm currently planning a trip out to Texas in early February and will be passing through Memphis on the way back. Since I still need to get it, I'm thinking of driving the western end of US 72 so I can fully clench my closes 2-digit US Route...
Does US 72 (still) start at US 51/Bellevue Boulevard?
Quote from: freebrickproductions on January 14, 2024, 04:37:34 PM
Apologies for the bump, but I'm currently planning a trip out to Texas in early February and will be passing through Memphis on the way back. Since I still need to get it, I'm thinking of driving the western end of US 72 so I can fully clench my closes 2-digit US Route...
Does US 72 (still) start at US 51/Bellevue Boulevard?
The 2002 map indicates such. (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/maps/city-maps/city-maps-l-o/map-city-Memphis%20SW.pdf)
I assume that it is unsigned west of here. (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1338938,-89.9839655,3a,75y,193.96h,90.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxWZsd6aPxaShV-uG7qEWPg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DxWZsd6aPxaShV-uG7qEWPg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D227.98299%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
Quote from: hbelkins on December 28, 2022, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 28, 2022, 08:53:44 AM
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on December 27, 2022, 09:56:39 PM
i generally don't understand the lack of signage to begin with. like aren't signs cheap to replace? or is there some bureaucratic redtape making it unnecessarily expensive to replace signage?
I believe bureaucratic apathy is the cause.
The extent to which that apathy is the result of limited utility for navigation (e.g., if you're driving Memphis city streets, you're most likely to be relying on street names anyway), or the general disdain the state government has for most things "Memphis", is debatable.
Not just Memphis. In my experience, Chattanooga and Nashville are just as bad, and Knoxville used to be.
Yep. In fact, I wrote a whole post ranting about the sorry state of signage in Chattanooga three years ago:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=27960.msg2546691#msg2546691
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 14, 2024, 05:17:02 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on January 14, 2024, 04:37:34 PM
Apologies for the bump, but I'm currently planning a trip out to Texas in early February and will be passing through Memphis on the way back. Since I still need to get it, I'm thinking of driving the western end of US 72 so I can fully clench my closes 2-digit US Route...
Does US 72 (still) start at US 51/Bellevue Boulevard?
The 2002 map indicates such. (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/maps/city-maps/city-maps-l-o/map-city-Memphis%20SW.pdf)
I assume that it is unsigned west of here. (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1338938,-89.9839655,3a,75y,193.96h,90.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxWZsd6aPxaShV-uG7qEWPg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DxWZsd6aPxaShV-uG7qEWPg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D227.98299%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
No sign back in July 2022; a zero mile marker only:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51972425318_cc3cabac13_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nbCgmA)US72 TN23 End MM0 at US64 US70 West US79 South (https://flic.kr/p/2nbCgmA) by formulanone (https://www.flickr.com/photos/formulanone/), on Flickr
US 72 has a posting west of here EB on the I-240 overpass - https://maps.app.goo.gl/hXRW1b7QFm1ypksq6
The TN 23 MM 0 sign is irrelevant.
But US 72 does end at US 51.
When Arkansas decides it wants US 78 in its state, how will its routing be in Memphis?
Quote from: roadman65 on January 14, 2024, 09:14:36 PM
When Arkansas decides it wants US 78 in its state, how will its routing be in Memphis?
TDOT successfully petitioned AASHTO to move it off the downtown routing to follow Crump Blvd from I-55 to Lamar Avenue.
I think the US 78 extension is a stupid proposal. First, the extension into Arkansas is a convoluted one. Second, US 78 has connected Memphis, TN with Charleston, SC since the US Highway System debuted in 1926. And third, the extension should be rejected by AASHTO.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2024, 09:32:03 PM
Second, US 78 has connected Memphis, TN with Charleston, SC since the US Highway System debuted in 1926.
So what? Changes can happen... also, it still connects those two cities.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2024, 09:32:03 PM
And third, the extension should be rejected by AASHTO.
Too late.
Quote from: Mapmikey on January 14, 2024, 08:34:20 PM
US 72 has a posting west of here EB on the I-240 overpass - https://maps.app.goo.gl/hXRW1b7QFm1ypksq6
The US 70 and 79 shields have fallen down. This view from February, 2017 shows the former 4 shield assembly when it was intact.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PYeqddbvkYs1EYTV9
This image from May, 2018 shows the US 70 and 79 shields have come loose. The two shields were removed sometime between December, 2018 and May, 2019.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/E2yCV6pXE6Rqv7U19
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on December 27, 2022, 09:56:39 PM
i generally don't understand the lack of signage to begin with. like aren't signs cheap to replace? or is there some bureaucratic redtape making it unnecessarily expensive to replace signage?
Cheap is a relative term. Probably $100 each to make the square reassurance / intersection shields. From $200 to $500 labor to replace them on existing hardware. More to replace poles, mounts, etc.
These "Simple" signs could run $1,000.00 or more each. A drop in the bucket and indeed cheap when contrasted against most other road / highway repairs and construction, but still not negligible. There COULD even be $1,000 to $1,500 of engineering just to replace them in addition to the actual cost.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2024, 09:32:03 PM
I think the US 78 extension is a stupid proposal. First, the extension into Arkansas is a convoluted one. Second, US 78 has connected Memphis, TN with Charleston, SC since the US Highway System debuted in 1926. And third, the extension should be rejected by AASHTO.
But, then Arkansas won't get more federal monies!
Are the state highway routes that penetrate the Memphis area signposted any better than the US Highways?
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 06, 2024, 09:11:41 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2024, 09:32:03 PM
I think the US 78 extension is a stupid proposal. First, the extension into Arkansas is a convoluted one. Second, US 78 has connected Memphis, TN with Charleston, SC since the US Highway System debuted in 1926. And third, the extension should be rejected by AASHTO.
But, then Arkansas won't get more federal monies!
Too late...
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 06, 2024, 12:11:26 PM
Are the state highway routes that penetrate the Memphis area signposted any better than the US Highways?
Given that most of them are hidden concurrencies with the US routes, and given Tennessee's track record of signing standalone state routes in other cities, probably not.