I was out campaigning for a local Congressman today, and in my travels many traffic lights were still out following Hurricane Sandy. Officially, an inoperative traffic light means it's an all-way stop, but at every signal I saw, that was not the case. It wasn't a complete crap-storm because in most cases, one of the roads was pretty obviously a "major" road (a side street vs. a 50-mph 5xx county route). At some lights, there were barricades put up in the center-line of the major road (see diagram below) and/or traffic cones to force all traffic on the side street to make a right turn. But at every light that I saw this, people were going around the center barricades to make left turns onto the side street therefore briefly driving on the wrong side of the street. Alternatively, people who wish to continue on the side street just go around the barriers as well.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKNXE2.png&hash=ee646a86dca2bd4180f14d337a45c1173c42db21)
At a lot of these intersections, the local PD put up temporary stop signs on the side streets, but I'm thinking in order to have more control, how about make a circle of traffic cones in the center of the intersection, put up temporary stop or yields on all legs, and turn the intersection into a temporary mini roundabout?
Depends on the road. NJ 10 had this at River Road. You're not going to be moving traffic on Route 10 through a roundabout. At more minor intersections, I absolutely agree, although a 2-way or 4-way stop might also work in those cases on an emergency basis. I haven't seen much barricade-ducking over the last week, though just today I had to make a sketchy left turn into and back out of a driveway - the barricades and cones were haphazardly placed, so I couldn't tell if they applied to me.
Usually, when signals are dark, they are supposed to be treated as an all-way stop. However, as a unique situation last year, after a storm on the Saturday before Labor Day 2011, in Detroit at Telegraph and Five Mile Roads, traffic on Five Mile was made to turn right onto Telegraph, proceed to the Michigan Left, and then turn right onto Five Mile to continue on Five Mile. Not too different from your suggested idea.
Trying to create a temporary roundabout would not work. Cones, after they are properly places, get hit, moved, etc. After a while, the cones are all out of whack. It's hard enough to keep cones in place to signal a lane closed or to prevent cross traffic at an intersection. To completely recreate an intersection into a traffic circle would be absolutely confusing to everyone.
I remember in the aftermath of Hurricane Fran in 1996 there were a lot of temporary portable stop signs set up at a lot of intersections in the Durham, NC, area. To the extent it's feasible that might be a better solution than relying on people to do the right thing. Of course, it's also entirely appropriate to recognize that it's a lot easier for a small city like Durham to do that than it is in a large metropolitan area like DC or New York.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 05, 2012, 12:36:47 PM
I remember in the aftermath of Hurricane Fran in 1996 there were a lot of temporary portable stop signs set up at a lot of intersections in the Durham, NC, area. To the extent it's feasible that might be a better solution than relying on people to do the right thing. Of course, it's also entirely appropriate to recognize that it's a lot easier for a small city like Durham to do that than it is in a large metropolitan area like DC or New York.
Maryland's practice is to force all traffic on side roads to make a right turn at a signalized intersection if the power is expected to be out for a while.
I have also seen STOP signs mounted on plastic barrels to reinforce the idea that a dark signal means "All-Way STOP," though plenty of motorists don't get that concept.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 05, 2012, 01:13:39 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 05, 2012, 12:36:47 PM
I remember in the aftermath of Hurricane Fran in 1996 there were a lot of temporary portable stop signs set up at a lot of intersections in the Durham, NC, area. To the extent it's feasible that might be a better solution than relying on people to do the right thing. Of course, it's also entirely appropriate to recognize that it's a lot easier for a small city like Durham to do that than it is in a large metropolitan area like DC or New York.
Maryland's practice is to force all traffic on side roads to make a right turn at a signalized intersection if the power is expected to be out for a while.
I have also seen STOP signs mounted on plastic barrels to reinforce the idea that a dark signal means "All-Way STOP," though plenty of motorists don't get that concept.
I can see how the right turn would be safer. In my town we only have so many "temporary" stop signs and placing stop signs at all dark signals would be almost impossible for most municipalities. I just don't understand how hard it is to treat a dark signal as a four-way stop especially in the day time.
It isn't hard to treat it as a stop sign. It's more a case of people not wanting to be bothered or thinking that the law doesn't apply to them. As a practical matter, they know the odds of a cop being out at a given intersection issuing tickets to people who don't treat it as a four-way stop are pretty much nil (given that if there were a cop, he'd probably be directing traffic or doing something else instead of writing tickets for this particular offense), so they feel they're free to go.
It's unfortunate that so many drivers seem to think that it's OK to do whatever you want as long as you don't get a ticket. I see constant crap like people turning right from the far left lane, people driving at night with no headlights or just the parking lights, people going straight out of a turn-only lane, people turning from the left-hand of two right-turn lanes into the far right lane (never mind that another car is already turning into that lane from the other turn lane located to the right).....
Wisconsin has the practice, at least for state highways, to place folding stop signs at signalized intersections which can be unfolded and displayed in case of a power outage.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 05, 2012, 01:28:57 PMpeople turning from the left-hand of two right-turn lanes into the far right lane (never mind that another car is already turning into that lane from the other turn lane located to the right).....
or going straight from a right-turn-only lane when I am making a right turn from the lane to the left, which is an option for right or straight...
(invariably, it's a R0iDz D00d with a lifted pickup truck with an unnecessary set of auxiliary rear tires)
I always wondered why they don't just put up permanent signs to the effect of "stop when signal is dark."
If it's an intersection where you want it to become a two-way stop, have one road as "proceed with caution when signal is dark."
^ The problem comes in how often the sign would be applicable. Ideally, the signal is rarely dark...is a sign needed for so rare a circumstance.
Signs aren't always the best solution...
Some intersections have folded stop signs that can be unfolded and bolted up when the power goes out.
Decades ago, Maryland SHA (and its predecessor agency, the SRC) had STOP signs (which were never covered) at the "lower priority" road at some signalized intersections, with the implication being that the STOP signs were to be ignored when the signal was operating properly. I think the priority road was determined by AADT or maybe functional classification but I am not 100% certain about that.
They were removed (and that was probably a good thing) many, many years ago.
This is yet another reason why I like the "priority road" (http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vagmarken/Vajningspliktsmarken/B4/B4-1/laddahem/B4-1.png) and "end priority road" (http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vagmarken/Vajningspliktsmarken/B5/B5-1/laddahem/B5-1.png) signage found in many European nations.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 06, 2012, 08:28:07 AM
Decades ago, Maryland SHA (and its predecessor agency, the SRC) had STOP signs (which were never covered) at the "lower priority" road at some signalized intersections, with the implication being that the STOP signs were to be ignored when the signal was operating properly. I think the priority road was determined by AADT or maybe functional classification but I am not 100% certain about that.
They were removed (and that was probably a good thing) many, many years ago.
This is yet another reason why I like the "priority road" (http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vagmarken/Vajningspliktsmarken/B4/B4-1/laddahem/B4-1.png) and "end priority road" (http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vagmarken/Vajningspliktsmarken/B5/B5-1/laddahem/B5-1.png) signage found in many European nations.
speaking of European nations, Italy among other places is really big on putting STOP signs with traffic lights. Just in case the power goes out, but the average dumbass American has
no idea what to do with a STOP sign and a green light being presented simultaneously.
I agree that the best practice would be to somehow convert the USA to the European method (signs govern when signals are dark).
Also, at more major intersections, setting up barricades to create Michigan lefts are a solution, if the rest of the roadways are set up for that.
OTOH, one of the big advantages of roundabouts is that they keep working normally when the power goes out.
:nod:
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on November 06, 2012, 10:00:26 AM
I agree that the best practice would be to somehow convert the USA to the European method (signs govern when signals are dark).
What a concept!
Quote from: mgk920 on November 06, 2012, 10:00:26 AM
Also, at more major intersections, setting up barricades to create Michigan lefts are a solution, if the rest of the roadways are set up for that.
That has become increasingly common in Maryland.
Quote from: mgk920 on November 06, 2012, 10:00:26 AM
OTOH, one of the big advantages of roundabouts is that they keep working normally when the power goes out.
:nod:
Mike
Absolutely correct. Same thing applies to many (not all) grade-separated interchanges.
Quote from: mgk920 on November 06, 2012, 10:00:26 AM
I agree that the best practice would be to somehow convert the USA to the European method (signs govern when signals are dark).
OTOH, one of the big advantages of roundabouts is that they keep working normally when the power goes out.
So do conventional intersections with stop signs.
It sounds to me like the barricades cause confusion, which leads to caution. Just because people are making sketchy turns around them doesn't mean it is unsafe.
In Massachusetts, drivers encountering a powerless traffic signal are supposed to treat it as a four-way stop.
Of course, I can probably count on one hand the number of drivers that actually know that.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 06, 2012, 09:36:42 AM
but the average dumbass American has no idea what to do with a STOP sign and a green light being presented simultaneously.
If there is conflicting signs/signals, I'd say the real dumasses are the traffic engineers. (Even the ridiculously easy American drivers license tests cover how to handle dead signals.)
This intersection was a lot of fun when the power went out. Six ways, lots of left turns, trolley lines. Most people at least
tried to take turns:
http://goo.gl/maps/JGCB0
Quote from: Central Avenue on November 05, 2012, 10:20:13 PM
I always wondered why they don't just put up permanent signs to the effect of "stop when signal is dark."
I have actually seen such signs posted before.
In Europe, some countries have a "priority road" system. If I understand it correctly, the road with priority gets a special yellow diamond sign posted on its signal and gets the right-of-way. If your street doesn't have the diamond, you have to yield to traffic on the other street. Still other countries always post a stop or a yield sign at signalized intersections. The law says that the stoplight overrides these signs, so the only time they are in force is when the light is out.
Quote from: flowmotion on November 08, 2012, 03:56:15 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 06, 2012, 09:36:42 AM
but the average dumbass American has no idea what to do with a STOP sign and a green light being presented simultaneously.
If there is conflicting signs/signals, I'd say the real dumasses are the traffic engineers. (Even the ridiculously easy American drivers license tests cover how to handle dead signals.)
....
I'm pretty sure that was not covered on the test when I originally took it in the 1980s or when I had to take the knowledge test again in 2003 (due to two moving violations). It may–and if it isn't, it certainly should–be on there now. But that's part of the problem with the way we do things in this country: Once you get your driver's license, you generally don't have to be re-tested for knowledge. Problem is, standards of care change, but you get a lot of people who assume that what they were taught way back when is still valid. One prime example that always comes to my mind is antilock brakes. A lot of people learned to pump the brakes and don't understand that with ABS you don't do that. Another example might be that nowadays they teach following distance by time instead of by car lengths (my wife learned car lengths and when I explained how they teach it now, she thought it sounded idiotic).
We require people practicing various occupations to take continuing education courses to remain certified–teachers and attorneys come to mind most readily for me (mainly because I'm an attorney and my mother was a teacher), and I assume doctors probably fall into the same category. Aside from lack of political will to do it, I don't see why driving should be different, given that a mistake while driving has potentially dangerous or fatal consequences for other people.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2012, 09:43:58 AMA lot of people learned to pump the brakes and don't understand that with ABS you don't do that.
except when your ABS does not kick in, in which case you
do need to pump manually, at least once. I stopped myself from skidding into a busy intersection in Fairbanks this past March by doing precisely that. I don't know
why the ABS didn't kick in, but then was not the time for philosophical discussion.
the more general lesson taught should be "if your brakes lock up, release and try again", which resolves to "pump brakes when no ABS" and also to "if ABS is working, keep foot depressed".
Quote from: mgk920 on November 06, 2012, 10:00:26 AM
the best practice would be to somehow convert the USA to the European method (signs govern when signals are dark).
I believe that's already the case. The hierarchy in every state I'm familiar with is:
1) Police officer
2) Traffic signals
3) Signs
But, as with so many other things, you're not going to remember it if you never use it.
Quote from: roadfro on November 06, 2012, 04:47:59 AM
^ The problem comes in how often the sign would be applicable. Ideally, the signal is rarely dark...is a sign needed for so rare a circumstance.
Signs aren't always the best solution...
I know here in Florida there are a few big intersections with battery back up. But we get lots of summer T-storms w power out for a few minutes.. The batteries would run out if power off for days. But when we had hurricanes knock power out a few years ago. The Shierffs dept had officers out pretty soon after winds died down
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 08, 2012, 09:55:48 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2012, 09:43:58 AMA lot of people learned to pump the brakes and don't understand that with ABS you don't do that.
except when your ABS does not kick in, in which case you do need to pump manually, at least once. I stopped myself from skidding into a busy intersection in Fairbanks this past March by doing precisely that. I don't know why the ABS didn't kick in, but then was not the time for philosophical discussion.
the more general lesson taught should be "if your brakes lock up, release and try again", which resolves to "pump brakes when no ABS" and also to "if ABS is working, keep foot depressed".
All a fair point. What I was thinking of when I typed my post is how several people I know have said, "I think I messed up my antilock brakes because the pedal started vibrating, so I took my foot off."
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 08, 2012, 09:55:48 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2012, 09:43:58 AMA lot of people learned to pump the brakes and don't understand that with ABS you don't do that.
except when your ABS does not kick in, in which case you do need to pump manually, at least once. I stopped myself from skidding into a busy intersection in Fairbanks this past March by doing precisely that. I don't know why the ABS didn't kick in, but then was not the time for philosophical discussion.
the more general lesson taught should be "if your brakes lock up, release and try again", which resolves to "pump brakes when no ABS" and also to "if ABS is working, keep foot depressed".
To hazard a guess as to why your ABS didn't kick in - my first thought is that all four of your wheels locked up. The car doesn't know its own speed; it only knows how fast the wheels are turning. Usually the assumption that wheel speed = car speed is correct. ABS works by detecting differing wheel speeds while braking. If all four wheels lock, the car assumes it's happily stationary even though in real life it's careening into traffic.
Quote from: realjd on November 12, 2012, 02:54:36 PM
To hazard a guess as to why your ABS didn't kick in - my first thought is that all four of your wheels locked up. The car doesn't know its own speed; it only knows how fast the wheels are turning. Usually the assumption that wheel speed = car speed is correct. ABS works by detecting differing wheel speeds while braking. If all four wheels lock, the car assumes it's happily stationary even though in real life it's careening into traffic.
I did not know that, but that is a sensible guess.
I wonder how to solve that problem.
1) deceleration of wheels occurred far too quickly compared to known values for how well the car brakes - wheels must be locked up, or car has crashed into a wall.
2) add an accelerometer which detects change in velocity of the moving body and compares it to change in velocity implied by rotation of the wheels.
Totally as an aside, but my father learned only a few years ago that one of his uncles was the inventor of ABS. He sat on the invention while the big car manufacturers offered him peanuts for his idea, and only jumped when the right deal came along. My dad remembers going on childhood visits to his uncle's house in the Michigan dunes–a huge house overlooking the lake, obviously (looking back now) a rich man's house–but never really thought anything of it as a kid. Now, of course, it makes sense how he could have afforded such a place when the rest of the family was of more modest means. Anyway, over time, my dad gradually became less connected to his Chicago-area family and didn't really know the guy anymore. But, as my grandfather was nearing the end of his life, it's amazing what family stories started coming forth. For the life of me, I can't remember my dad's uncle's name; it might be rather hard to find in the history books, since I assume the bigwigs in Detroit ended up taking most of the credit....
Quote from: Big John on November 05, 2012, 01:33:07 PM
Wisconsin has the practice, at least for state highways, to place folding stop signs at signalized intersections which can be unfolded and displayed in case of a power outage.
I've seen a couple of these in the Philly area. It depends on the road and the township.
One township (Radnor) actually brought in portable generators last year after Hurricane Irene and attached them to the traffic lights at major intersections.
I've seen the folded stop signs all over WI... I just kinda assumed that was a thing outside this state too... apparently
not!
35th St and National Ave http://goo.gl/maps/1ijRh however didn't feature such folding signs when they needed to mess around
with the metal box that has some traffic light tech inside it back in the summer. The first day it was a 4-way flashing red
stop, the next day they had stop signs installed all over the place and turned the lights off while working inside the box.
Day after that the lights were back to normal and stop-signs removed. The traffic here wasn't bad at all in the morning but
in the afternoon it was BAD. Traffic on the viaduct backed up like half way or a third of the way. The problem was the two
lanes from each direction stopping... people turned into scaredy cats here and most people didn't move fast enough.
I remember Capitol Dr and Humboldt http://goo.gl/maps/MqyDD back in the spring randomly turned into a 4-way flashing red
stop too during the day. It actually worked out pretty damn well. Everyone stopped and gave way like they were supposed to
and seemed to work better than the signalling that's usually there.... but that's because Humboldt isn't very busy of a
road, and when there is traffic to turn left onto it, or cars on humboldt at all... it's only a couple cars.
Here's some interesting videos:
Auckland power cut... 3-way intersection working pretty well w/o lights and drivers don't treat it like 3-way stop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3-MspHo7ZI
UK project to turn off their seemingly useless traffic lights with nice results: Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBcz-Y8lqOg Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi0meiActlU
Got a little off-topic here, but in WI anyway people are pretty good at treating it like a stop sign. Although I can't say I'm always a fan of traffic lights. I wish left turns on red were permitted (after stopping of course and yielding to traffic). Also wish red lights would act like a stop light at times too... sitting at a red light with NO cross traffic drives me insane... I should be able to stop, look left and right, and proceed. Basically I'd like the major road to be flashing yellow with the minor road being a flashing red.