I was wondering if there is any specific ruling about the placing of control cities? Usually the nearest city is listed before the far away city if it is the same direction of travel. If it is one point for each way, then I have seen it either way used. However, the NJ Turnpike for the signing of Exit 4 in Mount Laurel, NJ placed Philadelphia before Camden, spite that Camden is before Philadelphia. The same for the Atlantic City Expressway for all Westbound Entrance Ramps. Although, on the ACE one could say that Philly comes first as the Walt Whitman Bridge (that is the first crossing into the City of Brotherly Love) is before Camden. In the case of the NJ Turnpike you must pass through Camden to reach Philadelphia.
Toll roads want to put the major destination first because most toll road drivers are clueless. (Before you accuse me of anything, I know someone who has to deal with broken down or lost motorists. These are the people who follow one road so blindly they don't even know which one it is.) If they put Philly second, people would think "oh, it MAY get me there, but there must be a more direct exit later." Yes, it's incorrect, but you'd get more confused motorists in Delaware if you didn't do it that way.
(Okay, now you can accuse me of anything.)
I am not accusing you of anything, nor will I. However, I do believe you big time about many motorists being "clueless" of where they are and what road they are on. I remember once on this forum, someone mentioned the amount of people who ask a NJ Turnpike toll collector what state they are in spite the fact the Turnpike they are on is named ugh New Jersey.
Then you have many non road geeks who think the whole turnpike is I-95 and you could get into very heated arguments about it as well. I also remember back in the early 80s prior to the controversial 5 mile Union County segment opening, a man on the CB radio was referring to the I-78 & I-287 junction as I-78's eastern terminus because I-78 eastbound at that particular interchange was not signed at all. Local Traffic and Mount Bethel were used on the guides to keep through motorists and trucks off of Bonnie Burn Road in Watchung and he believed what NJDOT wanted him to. Me and him got into it for a bit on ole channel 19.
I do not have a problem with NJTA signing it that way at all. I was just wondering not so much why as to how unusual it is. The Port Authority once put New York in front of Newark leaving EWR before the current signing directing motorists via the Turnpike or Skyway was installed. It is interesting to see this, though.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 08, 2012, 07:20:03 PM
I was wondering if there is any specific ruling about the placing of control cities? Usually the nearest city is listed before the far away city if it is the same direction of travel. If it is one point for each way, then I have seen it either way used. However, the NJ Turnpike for the signing of Exit 4 in Mount Laurel, NJ placed Philadelphia before Camden, spite that Camden is before Philadelphia. The same for the Atlantic City Expressway for all Westbound Entrance Ramps. Although, on the ACE one could say that Philly comes first as the Walt Whitman Bridge (that is the first crossing into the City of Brotherly Love) is before Camden. In the case of the NJ Turnpike you must pass through Camden to reach Philadelphia.
Actually, Camden's city limits don't even touch the NJ Turnpike at all. Exit 4 is actually located in Cherry Hill; several miles from Camden.
Another set of BGS' that lists the farther control destination above the closer one are 2 exit BGS' from the eastbound Vine Expressway to I-95 South in Philadelphia. Those BGS', erected when the Vine Expressway & I-676 was fully opened in late 1991, read
95 SOUTH Chester Phila. Int'l Airport despite the fact that one using I-95 South from that point reaches the Airport prior to reaching Chester.
The only
logic, and I use that term very loosely, for that approach would be that the advance BGS' containing only one northbound and one southbound control destinations for I-95 only include Chester for the southbound destination. It's worth noting that the
majority of exit and pull-through signage for I-95 South from Center City to Broad Street (PA 611) use the airport as its control destination.
Some of the signs on southbound I-95 in Virginia approaching the I-85 exit list South Hill before Blackstone, but South Hill is considerably further south down I-85. I wonder if this might be an exception to the more normal rule because Blackstone is not on I-85 but is instead typically accessed by taking Exit 61 off I-85 onto US-460 and then continuing west (although on my first trip to Blackstone I went down to McKenney and took VA-40 instead).
I know I could look it up to see if that's a recognized exception to the normal principle, but I'm just not motivated to do it just now. The other signs for I-85 use the more traditional order for Durham and Atlanta (though in a departure from standard Virginia practice, they don't add "NC" and "GA," respectively....I'm sure almost everyone knows where Atlanta is, but Durham might be less-universally recognized).
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/virginia095/i-095_sb_exit_052_02.jpg)
I think any rule applies only to distance signs, not guide signs.
Quote from: NE2 on November 09, 2012, 09:15:32 AM
I think any rule applies only to distance signs, not guide signs.
Fom the 2009 MUTCD:
Section 2E.13 Designation of Destinations
Standard:
01 The direction of a freeway and the major destinations or control cities along it shall be clearly identified
through the use of appropriate destination legends (see Section 2D.37). Successive freeway guide signs shall
provide continuity in destination names and consistency with available map information. At any decision
point, a given destination shall be indicated by way of only one route.Guidance:
02 Control city legends should be used in the following situations along a freeway:
A. At interchanges between freeways;
B. At separation points of overlapping freeway routes;
C. On directional signs on intersecting routes, to guide traffic entering the freeway;
D. On Pull-Through signs; and
E. On the bottom line of post-interchange distance signs.Support:
03 Continuity of destination names is also useful on expressways serving long-distance or intrastate travel.
04 The determination of major destinations or control cities is important to the quality of service provided by
the freeway. Control cities on freeway guide signs are selected by the States and are contained in the "Guidelines
for the Selection of Supplemental Guide Signs for Traffic Generators Adjacent to Freeways, 4th Edition/Guide
Signs, Part II: Guidelines for Airport Guide Signing/Guide Signs, Part III: List of Control Cities for Use in Guide
Signs on Interstate Highways," published by and available from the American Association of State and Highway
Transportation Officials (see Section 1A.11).Some states are more restrictive than the MUTCD when it comes to the use of control cities. For example, MassDOT's Guide Sign Policy For Secondary State Highways (which covers signs like PennDOTFan's "paddle" signs) states:
Destinations on signs at entrances to Interstate routes shall conform to MUTCD "˜control city' requirements. On sign panels with two destinations, only one "˜control city' is required, but if only one is used, it shall be the further destination on the sign.
Yep, no mention of where on the non-distance signs the actual control city (as opposed to what many roadgeeks incorrectly call control cities) goes.
According to the MUCTD then, FDOT and NJDOT are in violation then, cause it states that control cities should be used at entrance ramps to freeways, yet I-4 and I-287 (along with many NJ Interstates) leave out control cities and use shield only in many locations.
Also, I remember when the EB control cities used be for FL 528 on I-4 Eastbound were Cape Canaveral followed by Orlando International Airport spite that the airport is way before Cape Canaveral on FL 528. Now it was fixed, but only "Int'l Airport" is used as many know what airport it is. However, if it were used second after Cape Canaveral it may seem now that it is the Cape Canaveral International Airport as it could easily be misread that way, spite there is no such place.
I-495 in Maryland used to use Baltimore & College Park for the outer loop from the Potomac River to the BW Parkway for a long time. I believe that changed when I-495 was dropped for that short period on the east end of the Capital Beltway. I do not know now if College Park was added back along with the second term I-495 or not. Nonetheless, College Park is much closer than Baltimore that at that time the former was via another interstate as I-95 was not yet assigned in designation on the Beltway yet.
Sorry..... I had to.....
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2012, 05:03:53 AM
spite the fact the Turnpike they are on is named ugh New Jersey.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2012, 05:21:26 PM
spite there is no such place.
:thumbdown: :banghead:
Quote from: PHLBOS on November 09, 2012, 08:50:19 AM
despite the fact that one using I-95 South from that point reaches the Airport prior to reaching Chester.
:thumbsup: :nod:
Quote from: The Collins English Dictionary
spite [spaɪt]
n
1. maliciousness involving the desire to harm another; venomous ill will
2. an instance of such malice; grudge
3. Archaic something that induces vexation
in spite of (preposition) in defiance of; regardless of; notwithstanding
vb (tr)
1. to annoy in order to vent spite
2. Archaic to offend.
despite [dɪˈspaɪt]
prep
in spite of; undeterred by
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2012, 05:21:26 PM
According to the MUCTD then, FDOT and NJDOT are in violation then, cause it states that control cities should be used at entrance ramps to freeways, yet I-4 and I-287 (along with many NJ Interstates) leave out control cities and use shield only in many locations.
Should and shall are not the same in the MUTCD.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2012, 05:21:26 PM
According to the MUCTD then, FDOT and NJDOT are in violation then, cause it states that control cities should be used at entrance ramps to freeways, yet I-4 and I-287 (along with many NJ Interstates) leave out control cities and use shield only in many locations.
Look at the MUTCD more closely. Shield only is perfectly acceptable.
Quote from: kphoger on November 09, 2012, 05:42:35 PM
Sorry..... I had to.....
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2012, 05:03:53 AM
spite the fact the Turnpike they are on is named ugh New Jersey.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2012, 05:21:26 PM
spite there is no such place.
:thumbdown: :banghead:
Quote from: PHLBOS on November 09, 2012, 08:50:19 AM
despite the fact that one using I-95 South from that point reaches the Airport prior to reaching Chester.
:thumbsup: :nod:
Quote from: The Collins English Dictionary
spite [spaɪt]
n
1. maliciousness involving the desire to harm another; venomous ill will
2. an instance of such malice; grudge
3. Archaic something that induces vexation
in spite of (preposition) in defiance of; regardless of; notwithstanding
vb (tr)
1. to annoy in order to vent spite
2. Archaic to offend.
despite [dɪˈspaɪt]
prep
in spite of; undeterred by
I guess working around politically correct people has a tendency to rub off on me. Most of my co workers use words like "Yo" and "What up" and the street lingo.
I have to learn others as well, because broadcasting requires you to use proper words and sentence structure on air as well as a Midwestern tone in speech. That is why you never hear a newscaster talk in a strong southern accent in the South. However, Shock Jock Tom Joyner does not try to hide his strong southern accent, so some rules are broken. Especially if you are a strong runner in political gossip and already established an audience, you can deviate from the rules. I am studying broadcasting as a thing so I hear this from mentors.
I will try to use the proper vocabulary next time.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2012, 10:20:45 AM
I guess working around politically correct people has a tendency to rub off on me. Most of my co workers use words like "Yo" and "What up" and the street lingo.
what
Quote from: NE2 on November 10, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2012, 10:20:45 AM
I guess working around politically correct people has a tendency to rub off on me. Most of my co workers use words like "Yo" and "What up" and the street lingo.
what
no, "What up." and i think by "politically correct people" he meant to say "I work around Negroes."
Quote from: Steve on November 10, 2012, 07:34:58 PM
i think by "politically correct people" he meant to say "I work around Negroes."
Or wannabes (http://www.eminemlounge.com/wp-content/uploads/Birthday-Eminem.jpg).
You guys don't try hard enough.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F2732_1068251144280_4424184_n.jpg&hash=7ca3ab2983445a2d48c4b0c3dde033aa864027be)
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2012, 05:03:53 AM
I am not accusing you of anything, nor will I. However, I do believe you big time about many motorists being "clueless" of where they are and what road they are on. I remember once on this forum, someone mentioned the amount of people who ask a NJ Turnpike toll collector what state they are in spite the fact the Turnpike they are on is named ugh New Jersey.
That would be me that said it.
While I don't recall any specifics, I do remember thinking to myself, after my first weekend of working the toll booths, how scary it is to be driving alongside many of the motorists I encountered. "Clueless" could actually be an understatement.
As for the Philadelphia situation above, countless motorists - per shift, mind you - would make their way south to Interchange 1 of the NJ Turnpike and ask how far to Philadelphia...which they passed a half-hour ago. Who knows how many more make it to Delaware before asking that question.
Many motorists, when exiting at an interchange, will want to know if the ramp they want is on the left or right. I would try to say "Straight Ahead" or "Right". Why? Because when you say left, some of them will go thru the cones past the toll booth, and go the wrong way into oncoming traffic.
I wished I kept a diary of my days at the Turnpike. I think toll collectors on the weekends (which we part-timers work) probably had more issues with wayward travelers than on the weekdays, where many people are regular commuters and know their destinations well.
Truckers especially surprised me. Considering how many tools they had at their disposal (think pre-smart phone material: maps, route info, CB radio, etc), many of those truckers were just as clueless. One incident I remember well is a trucker who didn't like paying the toll. I told him he could've taken 295 instead (yes, we freely admit to that free road being there, knowing most will never take it). The trucker argued with me that I-295 in NJ was a toll road as well. The only thing I could think of (afterwards) was that 295 is marked a toll road at the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and he read that to be all 67 miles of 295 in NJ is a toll road.
In most cases, it's easier just to agree with the motorist, or say "I don't know", and let them move on.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 12, 2012, 12:06:38 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2012, 05:03:53 AM
I am not accusing you of anything, nor will I. However, I do believe you big time about many motorists being "clueless" of where they are and what road they are on. I remember once on this forum, someone mentioned the amount of people who ask a NJ Turnpike toll collector what state they are in spite the fact the Turnpike they are on is named ugh New Jersey.
That would be me that said it.
While I don't recall any specifics, I do remember thinking to myself, after my first weekend of working the toll booths, how scary it is to be driving alongside many of the motorists I encountered. "Clueless" could actually be an understatement.
As for the Philadelphia situation above, countless motorists - per shift, mind you - would make their way south to Interchange 1 of the NJ Turnpike and ask how far to Philadelphia...which they passed a half-hour ago. Who knows how many more make it to Delaware before asking that question.
Many motorists, when exiting at an interchange, will want to know if the ramp they want is on the left or right. I would try to say "Straight Ahead" or "Right". Why? Because when you say left, some of them will go thru the cones past the toll booth, and go the wrong way into oncoming traffic.
I wished I kept a diary of my days at the Turnpike. I think toll collectors on the weekends (which we part-timers work) probably had more issues with wayward travelers than on the weekdays, where many people are regular commuters and know their destinations well.
Truckers especially surprised me. Considering how many tools they had at their disposal (think pre-smart phone material: maps, route info, CB radio, etc), many of those truckers were just as clueless. One incident I remember well is a trucker who didn't like paying the toll. I told him he could've taken 295 instead (yes, we freely admit to that free road being there, knowing most will never take it). The trucker argued with me that I-295 in NJ was a toll road as well. The only thing I could think of (afterwards) was that 295 is marked a toll road at the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and he read that to be all 67 miles of 295 in NJ is a toll road.
In most cases, it's easier just to agree with the motorist, or say "I don't know", and let them move on.
I can believe it. I live in Orlando, the vacation destination of the world, so I can emphasize what you must go through. I have given so many directions and seen so many motorists do crazy things from backing up on a major highway if they miss their turn to making left turns from the far right lane, and even such things as wait for a left turn signal to change while in a through lane holding up other motorists. Heck with the horn being blasted at them.
Many times I will give directions out and I watch the person drive off not going in the direction I have told them. Some even still look at you even after you told them everything before driving off slowly and I have seen some people ask more than one person the same question, with both answering and directing them perfectly and STILL walking away confused.
I was behind a truck on the PA Turnpike once that did not have the money to pay his toll and held me in line for over 5 minuets while the collector had to obtain the necessary information needed to let the driver through the barrier. You figure truckers and cab drivers would know everything, but some of them you wonder how they make it everyday on the roads. I cannot count how many times a cab driver asked me directions to part of a resort cause they did not know where to take their passengers.
That is why we have accidents so much! Then you even have the cell phone, and YES I have seen a person with an open bottle of beer while driving his vehicle on the road! I also saw a guy who had no license plate, permanent or temporary, on his car, while it was souped up for attention, and with the driver doing massive weaving around cars with a loud muffler. You figure that would be a magnet for police as it is the same as hanging a billboard on your vehicle I HAVE NO TAG in large letters. Then again, the way I see law enforcement nowadays with regular crime being the focus, I have found many of them to ignore what is happening on the roads, especially around my area. Hence, the reason why the private sector is stopping red light runners with their cameras on street corners, because the peace officers have turned away.
I can believe it. So no matter how many signs you place, or what you place on them, it is not going to help many motorists. My favorite is the EXIT ONLY signs with lane control arrows on them overhead and yet I have seen people make a change of lanes after the exit ramp parts to back on the freeway. The new lines that the MUTCD requires for pavement striping at exit lanes are not even noticed or comprehended eithe. r Its just plain carelessness!
I once had a friend/coworker/roommate who was originally from Bolivia. He moved to Birmingham, AL, and then to the Chicago area, which is where I knew him. He once drove from Chicago to Birmingham, but didn't notice he was going the wrong direction until he got to....Saint Louis. Oops.
Quote from: kphoger on November 12, 2012, 09:41:09 AM
I once had a friend/coworker/roommate who was originally from Bolivia. He moved to Birmingham, AL, and then to the Chicago area, which is where I knew him. He once drove from Chicago to Birmingham, but didn't notice he was going the wrong direction until he got to....Saint Louis. Oops.
I have observed people getting similarly (and catastrophically) lost, even with GPS units along I-95 in Maryland and Virginia.
I've driven in Las Vegas a few times, and I've noticed that at the Spaghetti Junction (where I-15, I-515, US 93 and US 95 meet), the overhead signs mark southbound I-515/US 93/US 95 as "Phoenix, Downtown LV". I guess it's for all the tourist traffic. Unless things have changed, Phoenix isn't mentioned again on any signs until you get into Arizona on US 93.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on December 02, 2012, 11:19:04 PM
I've driven in Las Vegas a few times, and I've noticed that at the Spaghetti Junction (where I-15, I-515, US 93 and US 95 meet), the overhead signs mark southbound I-515/US 93/US 95 as "Phoenix, Downtown LV". I guess it's for all the tourist traffic. Unless things have changed, Phoenix isn't mentioned again on any signs until you get into Arizona on US 93.
I was in Las Vegas in October and "Phoenix / Downtown LV" were on the I-515 exit signs. The sign is kind of old IIRC (not Porcelain-old but I recall it does look quite weathered).
Quote from: myosh_tino on December 03, 2012, 12:34:05 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on December 02, 2012, 11:19:04 PM
I've driven in Las Vegas a few times, and I've noticed that at the Spaghetti Junction (where I-15, I-515, US 93 and US 95 meet), the overhead signs mark southbound I-515/US 93/US 95 as "Phoenix, Downtown LV". I guess it's for all the tourist traffic. Unless things have changed, Phoenix isn't mentioned again on any signs until you get into Arizona on US 93.
I was in Las Vegas in October and "Phoenix / Downtown LV" were on the I-515 exit signs. The sign is kind of old IIRC (not Porcelain-old but I recall it does look quite weathered).
The I-15 NB approach to the Spaghetti Bowl and exit to I-515/US 93/US 95 south are one of the few places where "Phoenix / Downtown LV" is used. The other is on the I-15 SB ramp to US 95, at the north/south ramp split. These signs date to the reconstruction of the Spaghetti Bowl, and would have been erected in 1999-2000.
Other signs approaching the Spaghetti Bowl used to indicate "Phoenix / Downtown LV". These have been replaced in recent reconstruction projects and now simply say "Phoenix" (on I-15 SB) or "Downtown LV" (on US 95 SB).
There is also a pull-through sign on I-515 at the Casino Center Blvd exit (just past the Spaghetti Bowl) that uses Phoenix as the control city--an older version of the sign used "Phoenix / Needles". After that, there are no other pull-through signs on the mainline in Nevada.
"Phoenix / Needles" is used on an overhead sign on Las Vegas Blvd NB approaching I-515. Any other overhead signs on intersecting streets/highways use either "Henderson" or "Boulder City".
I-10 east bound in Houston Tx. had a BGS just past the 10-610 interchange that listed the control city as Baton Rouge La.
This skips Beaumont TX, Lake Charles La and Lafayette La, all major cities east of Houston. I haven't been through there in a few years, so I'm not sure it's still labeled that way.
Mark
Quote from: pctech on December 03, 2012, 12:19:54 PM
I-10 east bound in Houston Tx. had a BGS just past the 10-610 interchange that listed the control city as Baton Rouge La.
This skips Beaumont TX, Lake Charles La and Lafayette La, all major cities east of Houston. I haven't been through there in a few years, so I'm not sure it's still labeled that way.
Mark
I have seen a lot of skip overs, like in Florida you will see Daytona Beach first used on I-95 in Jacksonville, then it goes to Miami in St. John's County where Daytona has not been reached. Then the same happens later where Miami is used up until the Indian River County Line, where it switches to West Palm Beach again long before you reach Miami. That is not unusual.
I-10 also uses Lake City from Tallahassee, FL eastward, but then jumps to Jacksonville before even reaching Lake City. Then I
I-35 in Kansas seems to skip over Kansas City once you enter Olathe, KS and goes right to Des Moines. Forget that you still have not reached Missouri's largest city yet. That is, I remember someone years back on here stating, because many vehicles entering I-35 NB in the Greater KC area here are locals and know where Kansas City is and feel that it is trivial to mention it.
Personally, I feel Mississippi was still in anti-federal government mode when parts of their section of the Interstate system was built, for they use McComb, Grenada and sometimes Brookhaven on I-55 instead of New Orleans and Memphis, except on BGS's in Jackson and once you pass McComb and Grenada. :-|
Quote from: roadman65 on December 03, 2012, 04:48:21 PM
I-35 in Kansas seems to skip over Kansas City once you enter Olathe, KS and goes right to Des Moines. Forget that you still have not reached Missouri's largest city yet. That is, I remember someone years back on here stating, because many vehicles entering I-35 NB in the Greater KC area here are locals and know where Kansas City is and feel that it is trivial to mention it.
That, and Kansas seems to consider "Kansas City" to mean "Kansas City, KS" sometimes. I-70 EB is signed for "St Louis" from I-435.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 05, 2012, 12:13:32 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 03, 2012, 04:48:21 PM
I-35 in Kansas seems to skip over Kansas City once you enter Olathe, KS and goes right to Des Moines. Forget that you still have not reached Missouri's largest city yet. That is, I remember someone years back on here stating, because many vehicles entering I-35 NB in the Greater KC area here are locals and know where Kansas City is and feel that it is trivial to mention it.
That, and Kansas seems to consider "Kansas City" to mean "Kansas City, KS" sometimes. I-70 EB is signed for "St Louis" from I-435.
And Missouri considers its own as Kansas City. Look at SB I-29 & US 71 at I-635 with the pull through sign for I-29 and US 71 being Kansas City Downtown (originally just KC). I-635 has the state name "Kansas" as control city instead of at least Kansas City, KS.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Kansas+City,+MO&hl=en&ll=39.193034,-94.617434&spn=0.008465,0.021136&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=9.892242,21.643066&oq=kansas+city&t=h&hnear=Kansas+City,+Jackson,+Missouri&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.192841,-94.617319&panoid=oinuK_jg1yzcvy7jOHaY_Q&cbp=12,180,,0,0
That does make sense, since just "Kansas City" there could be confusing. MoDOT could do their thing of posting "Kansas City Ks" but they seem to feel "Kansas" communicates that just as well.
I would be tempted to put "Argentine" there but I imagine that would be too obscure for a lot of people to grasp.
Quote from: brownpelican on December 05, 2012, 01:35:26 AM
Personally, I feel Mississippi was still in anti-federal government mode when parts of their section of the Interstate system was built, for they use McComb, Grenada and sometimes Brookhaven on I-55 instead of New Orleans and Memphis, except on BGS's in Jackson and once you pass McComb and Grenada. :-|
I don't think it's "anti-federal government" as opposed to localism (and, in the days of the 55 mph limit and before I-55 was finished, the fact that there wasn't as much interstate traffic on I-55). The most notorious example was actually I-59 using "Picayune" as a control city. Newer signage projects have usually supplemented the old control city names on overheads, while MDOT continues like many states to be more parochial in the signage from off-ramps.