Washington Post: Toll roads toss the coins for electronic methods (http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/toll-roads-toss-the-coins-for-electronic-methods/2012/11/15/fa241d6c-29f9-11e2-b4e0-346287b7e56c_story.html)
QuoteJohn Townsend, a spokesman for AAA Mid-Atlantic, didn't remember blowing through a tollbooth on a Friday evening in September, despite an official letter from the E-ZPass Maryland Service Center charging him with the infraction. The note included a bill for $3.25 in unpaid tolls, plus a stern warning: Failure to pay could result in additional penalties, suspension of his car registration and, finally, a collection agency on his tail.
QuoteAfter consulting his travel calendar and determining his family's movements on that fateful night, he cracked the mystery. His son had driven the car on Maryland's Intercounty Connector, an all-electronic toll road. According to Papa Townsend, his child's defense was, "I didn't know that was a toll road."
My boss has done that in the Dallas area–driven a rental car on a toll road without knowing it was a toll road until they were passing underneath the cameras.
I've heard of people doing that, and claiming there was no sign. I know some people who, when driving, don't know the speed limit, or what road it is, or what road's coming up. I can't imagine driving like that, just moving in a direction without keeping a sense of what's around, but it seems to be the way some people do it. At the same time, maybe toll roads should be marked a little better than a little white tab above a sign. In Texas, the route markers have different colors, which helps. I tell my younger friends, who mostly don't pay that much attention, that it's their responsibility to know where the toll roads are, how much they cost, and what forms of payment are accepted. They still end up with unexpected toll bills because they just won't pay attention. Regarding the topic at hand, I guess it's better to get a bill in the mail later than to have to unexpectedly stop and dig for coins.
Quote from: wxfree on November 18, 2012, 10:13:00 PM
I've heard of people doing that, and claiming there was no sign. I know some people who, when driving, don't know the speed limit, or what road it is, or what road's coming up. I can't imagine driving like that, just moving in a direction without keeping a sense of what's around, but it seems to be the way some people do it. At the same time, maybe toll roads should be marked a little better than a little white tab above a sign. In Texas, the route markers have different colors, which helps. I tell my younger friends, who mostly don't pay that much attention, that it's their responsibility to know where the toll roads are, how much they cost, and what forms of payment are accepted. They still end up with unexpected toll bills because they just won't pay attention. Regarding the topic at hand, I guess it's better to get a bill in the mail later than to have to unexpectedly stop and dig for coins.
Maryland's first cashless toll road, Md. 200 (ICC), is
very well signed at both ends and at all entrances.
I don't believe the clueless "I didn't know" excuse for a second. Neither does a good cop when it comes to speed limits (yeah... non of that "warning" crap).
Faster we can get 100% ETC (or ORT if you'd rather call it that) the better. So sick of toll booths littering the place and forcing drivers to slow down / encourage sloppy interchange design.
Quote from: wxfree on November 18, 2012, 10:13:00 PM
At the same time, maybe toll roads should be marked a little better than a little white tab above a sign.
The several signs marking it as a toll road could crash through some drivers' windshields and they would still miss them.
Quote from: wxfree on November 18, 2012, 10:13:00 PM
Regarding the topic at hand, I guess it's better to get a bill in the mail later than to have to unexpectedly stop and dig for coins.
Except then you pay $25 for a $0.25 toll.
What's best is ORT lanes with a manned booth on the side... then, even if you don't have change, you could at least pay with bills or a credit card.
Quote from: colinstu on November 18, 2012, 11:29:42 PM
I don't believe the clueless "I didn't know" excuse for a second. Neither does a good cop when it comes to speed limits (yeah... non of that "warning" crap).
Faster we can get 100% ETC (or ORT if you'd rather call it that) the better. So sick of toll booths littering the place and forcing drivers to slow down / encourage sloppy interchange design.
Only when they come up with a way that doesn't force non-transponder users to pay a lot more. Any rate difference should be no larger than the current transponder discount on mixed toll roads.
Quote from: deanej on November 19, 2012, 11:34:08 AM
Quote from: wxfree on November 18, 2012, 10:13:00 PM
Regarding the topic at hand, I guess it's better to get a bill in the mail later than to have to unexpectedly stop and dig for coins.
Except then you pay $25 for a $0.25 toll.
What's best is ORT lanes with a manned booth on the side... then, even if you don't have change, you could at least pay with bills or a credit card.
Quote from: colinstu on November 18, 2012, 11:29:42 PM
I don't believe the clueless "I didn't know" excuse for a second. Neither does a good cop when it comes to speed limits (yeah... non of that "warning" crap).
Faster we can get 100% ETC (or ORT if you'd rather call it that) the better. So sick of toll booths littering the place and forcing drivers to slow down / encourage sloppy interchange design.
Only when they come up with a way that doesn't force non-transponder users to pay a lot more. Any rate difference should be no larger than the current transponder discount on mixed toll roads.
Welcome to the 21st century.
The cost of putting a toll collector out there goes way beyond the employee. Way, way beyond. Signage, booths, multiple collectors (one collector isn't going to work 24/7), money collection, accounting, security, buildings, bathrooms, parking, congestion, training, lighting, barriers, rumble strips, uniforms, etc.
I'm sure I forgot a dozen or so things.
Agreed. Technology has gotten to the point where the toll taker is rapidly becoming the telephone operator of the 21st century. That said, I still think that busy exits/toll plazas can afford to have a manned toll booth or two off to the side to accept cash. And, you still have a few people who don't have credit or debit cards to connect with a transponder, nor may they have internet access on a regular basis. It will take time to totally wean 100% of the populace from the concept of paying cash for tolls.
As for the "I didn't know it was a toll road" excuse: I call bullshit on that one. I can't think of a toll road or bridge that isn't clearly marked as such. At least not in the USA. Now, many could do a much better job of actually posting the toll amount. But they're marked well enough.
If you're so stupid as to be unable to read signs, perhaps you need to go back to Mrs. Puff's Boating Academy for a few lessons.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FvRtocoWlWSA%2F0.jpg&hash=1f6b7d9d0cb447eb92a20b40efb08a85fe00d89a)
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
As for the "I didn't know it was a toll road" excuse: I call bullshit on that one. I can't think of a toll road or bridge that isn't clearly marked as such. At least not in the USA. Now, many could do a much better job of actually posting the toll amount. But they're marked well enough.
No signs here warning you that the toll road begins ahead: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.338486,-81.508306&spn=0.034599,0.066047&gl=us&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=28.338486,-81.508306&panoid=NONkksyE9qkjMfPMIrYaNA&cbp=12,103.86,,0,2.11
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
As for the "I didn't know it was a toll road" excuse: I call bullshit on that one. I can't think of a toll road or bridge that isn't clearly marked as such. At least not in the USA. Now, many could do a much better job of actually posting the toll amount. But they're marked well enough.
But many are not marked until the last exit, with a "Last Free Exit" tab and no other warning. If traffic won't let you over, you have a choice of some illegal and/or unsafe move or the poorly marked tollway.
Others have free one-way access roads that end without warning, forcing drivers onto the tollroad.
Quote from: US81 on November 19, 2012, 05:52:49 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
As for the "I didn't know it was a toll road" excuse: I call bullshit on that one. I can't think of a toll road or bridge that isn't clearly marked as such. At least not in the USA. Now, many could do a much better job of actually posting the toll amount. But they're marked well enough.
But many are not marked until the last exit, with a "Last Free Exit" tab and no other warning. If traffic won't let you over, you have a choice of some illegal and/or unsafe move or the poorly marked tollway.
In Maryland, the signs read "TOLL ROAD" or "LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL" ahead of all toll roads and toll crossings.
Quote from: US81 on November 19, 2012, 05:52:49 PM
Others have free one-way access roads that end without warning, forcing drivers onto the tollroad.
That seems like a matter that should be discussed with the appropriate elected officials.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 19, 2012, 06:33:54 PM
Quote from: US81 on November 19, 2012, 05:52:49 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
As for the "I didn't know it was a toll road" excuse: I call bullshit on that one. I can't think of a toll road or bridge that isn't clearly marked as such. At least not in the USA. Now, many could do a much better job of actually posting the toll amount. But they're marked well enough.
But many are not marked until the last exit, with a "Last Free Exit" tab and no other warning. If traffic won't let you over, you have a choice of some illegal and/or unsafe move or the poorly marked tollway.
In Maryland, the signs read "TOLL ROAD" or "LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL" ahead of all toll roads and toll crossings.
Quote from: US81 on November 19, 2012, 05:52:49 PM
Others have free one-way access roads that end without warning, forcing drivers onto the tollroad.
That seems like a matter that should be discussed with the appropriate elected officials.
Yes, but this disproves your assertion that all toll roads are clearly marked. Even if all of them are
marked - and I know of many counterexamples (Ohio River toll bridges, for example) - the markings are often very difficult to make out. The word "toll'' gets buried on Garden State Parkway signs, for example, even though most people know by heart that that's a toll road. You also don't currently see "toll" on NJ Turnpike signs. All of that is fortunately changing with a recognizable yellow "Toll" banner, but these aren't the last roads to be upgraded.
Also, in Florida, the toll shields are used on free portions. For example, the western 4 miles of SR 528 are free (and a useful local route), despite being maintained by the Turnpike and signed with a toll shield. There is a 'last exit before toll', but the signs approaching on side roads are the same whether you're approaching a free or toll portion.
The free portion includes the International Drive tourist area: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.423545,-81.46049&spn=0.01721,0.033023&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=28.423545,-81.46049&panoid=918-7Od19lkfaM3BQ08lFA&cbp=12,118.27,,1,1.35
It wouldn't surprise me if many tourists take a different route because they think they will be charged a toll to get to I-4.
Quote from: NE2 on November 19, 2012, 07:17:47 PM
Also, in Florida, the toll shields are used on free portions. For example, the western 4 miles of SR 528 are free (and a useful local route), despite being maintained by the Turnpike and signed with a toll shield. There is a 'last exit before toll', but the signs approaching on side roads are the same whether you're approaching a free or toll portion.
Same strategy Garden State Parkway uses on the free sections.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
Agreed. Technology has gotten to the point where the toll taker is rapidly becoming the telephone operator of the 21st century.
But then how do you deal with travelers out of the area? If I go to Texas, I can't use a toll road without paying an arm and a leg in fees.
EDIT: Don't even have to go that far. The A-25 bridge in Montreal is just two hours away.
Quote from: deanej on November 19, 2012, 07:23:44 PM
But then how do you deal with travelers out of the area? If I go to Texas, I can't use a toll road without paying an arm and a leg in fees.
EDIT: Don't even have to go that far. The A-25 bridge in Montreal is just two hours away.
I'd like to see a way to pay on the road. With modern technology we don't need expensive human toll collectors. The sensors could measure the vehicle and display the toll amount on a screen, and the machine could accept coins, bills, and credit cards. The pay lanes would be off to the side, segregated from the full-speed main lanes. This gives you a choice. If you don't have a tag and don't have money, or there's a long line in the pay lanes, or you just don't want to stop, you continue on the main lanes and get a bill later. If you don't want to pay more, or are driving a car that's rented or borrowed, you stop and pay. This gives maximum choice: use a tag, stop and pay, or get a bill. The Austin area toll roads present this choice until the end of the year, when all cash collection will be removed. Is it really so onerous to replace attended toll booths with automated machines?
Quote from: NE2 on November 19, 2012, 07:17:47 PM
Also, in Florida, the toll shields are used on free portions. For example, the western 4 miles of SR 528 are free (and a useful local route), despite being maintained by the Turnpike and signed with a toll shield. There is a 'last exit before toll', but the signs approaching on side roads are the same whether you're approaching a free or toll portion.
Some signs approaching the road do differentiate, like this one right after the Florida's Turnpike toll plaza: http://goo.gl/maps/tZmUp
The shield for west 528 is a design I've never seen before - a Toll FL shield with the toll banner blank white, while the shield for east 528 is the standard toll shield. And on 528 itself, heading east, the advance signs for Exit 4 do have "LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL" banners, but the sign at the exit itself does not.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 19, 2012, 08:26:04 PM
Some signs approaching the road do differentiate, like this one right after the Florida's Turnpike toll plaza: http://goo.gl/maps/tZmUp
The shield for west 528 is a design I've never seen before - a Toll FL shield with the toll banner blank white, while the shield for east 528 is the standard toll shield.
Whoa. I never take the Turnpike there, but I've been all over the surface roads, so that's probably the only one. (Even stranger: the overheads before that do it on both shields, with a text TOLL to the left on the right sign.)
Miami's toll roads have a bunch of shields with the toll removed: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=25.812718,-80.232189&spn=0.017617,0.033023&gl=us&t=m&layer=c&cbll=25.8123,-80.232173&panoid=FG6XxyYMJDujUq-oboI0wQ&cbp=12,40.63,,2,0.37&z=16
And then up near Pensacola a two-lane surface road (that eventually leads to a toll bridge) is signed as Toll 281:
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/FL/FL19912812i1.jpg)
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
As for the "I didn't know it was a toll road" excuse: I call bullshit on that one. I can't think of a toll road or bridge that isn't clearly marked as such. At least not in the USA.
I can think of a few former facilities that were not well marked - though they all had manned booth:
1) The IA 394 bridge into Missouri: Seems the first sign warning of a toll bridge on the Iowa approach was shortly before the bridge where there was no good place to turn around.
2) The McKinley Bridge at St. Louis
3) The IL 14/IN 66 Wabash River bridge
As for current facilities, I've heard that the IL 141/IN 62 Wabash River bridge has no warning that it is a tag only crossing.
Quote from: NE2Also, in Florida, the toll shields are used on free portions.
The IDOT maintained free section of SB I-355 between I-290 and Army Trail Road also has the "Toll" banners on the entrances from I-290 and US 20.
I can see the confusion some places in knowing whether one is turning onto a toll road. Why can't everyone make it as clear as we do in Indiana?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.tinypic.com%2Fj13wk5.png&hash=d2ded7ca8b2ad6c60d551a2f891832a5f571e8f6)
Quote from: deanej on November 19, 2012, 07:23:44 PM
But then how do you deal with travelers out of the area? If I go to Texas, I can't use a toll road without paying an arm and a leg in fees.
I drove on the Bush Turnpike in Dallas a few years ago. I'm still waiting for my bill.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 19, 2012, 10:45:24 PM
I drove on the Bush Turnpike in Dallas a few years ago. I'm still waiting for my bill.
Getting a bill from NTTA depends on the number of transactions (toll points passed through). In order to avoid wasting money mailing bills for small amounts, they don't bill for fewer than 5 transactions. The practices are explained here https://www.ntta.org/custinfo/Pages/Billing-and-Payment.aspx (https://www.ntta.org/custinfo/Pages/Billing-and-Payment.aspx)
Quote from: deanej on November 19, 2012, 07:23:44 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
Agreed. Technology has gotten to the point where the toll taker is rapidly becoming the telephone operator of the 21st century.
But then how do you deal with travelers out of the area? If I go to Texas, I can't use a toll road without paying an arm and a leg in fees.
EDIT: Don't even have to go that far. The A-25 bridge in Montreal is just two hours away.
The Florida system isn't too terrible on their all-electronic toll roads in Miami. A SunPass transponder gets discounts on tolls. A free online SunPass account with your tag number gets you regular toll rates. License plates not associated with a free SunPass account are billed toll rates plus a small administrative fee ($2.50/month) . The website has an easy mechanism to time limit license plates to make it easy to tie rental cars to your SunPass account, plus they have agreements with all the major rental agencies.
Is it more of a hassle for tourists? Yes. But it saves significant amounts of money that can be reinvested into the road infrastructure.
For us in Connecticut, the closest toll road is I-90/Massachusetts Turnpike. Once you hit Hartford, the pull through signs simply say "I-84 EAST | BOSTON." However, no mention is made of any tolls until you're close to Exit 3 in Sturbridge, MA (US Route 20). Only in that area do the signs say "TOLL ROAD":
http://goo.gl/maps/CliRz
Quote from: US81 on November 19, 2012, 05:52:49 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on November 19, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
As for the "I didn't know it was a toll road" excuse: I call bullshit on that one. I can't think of a toll road or bridge that isn't clearly marked as such. At least not in the USA. Now, many could do a much better job of actually posting the toll amount. But they're marked well enough.
But many are not marked until the last exit, with a "Last Free Exit" tab and no other warning. If traffic won't let you over, you have a choice of some illegal and/or unsafe move or the poorly marked tollway.
Others have free one-way access roads that end without warning, forcing drivers onto the tollroad.
Even if a road is clearly marked TOLL, then that still doesn't tell a driver he can't pay cash. This is especially a problem for out-of-town drivers, many of whom are driving a rental or company vehicle or borrowing someone else's car. Can you imagine being a truck driver, seeing a sign that says TOLL ROAD, expecting to pay cash, and then finding out only too late that your company will be receiving a hefty bill?
Signs like "StatePASS Only" don't convey the necessary information as clearly as possible. A driver might assume that means no other states' transponders are accepted. What's needed is something like "StatePASS ONLY –
NO CASH ACCEPTED".
Quote from: kphoger on November 20, 2012, 10:21:44 AM
Even if a road is clearly marked TOLL, then that still doesn't tell a driver he can't pay cash. This is especially a problem for out-of-town drivers, many of whom are driving a rental or company vehicle or borrowing someone else's car. Can you imagine being a truck driver, seeing a sign that says TOLL ROAD, expecting to pay cash, and then finding out only too late that your company will be receiving a hefty bill?
In my opinion, the signing on eastbound I-370 in Montgomery County, Maryland approaching the end of 370 and the beginning of
TOLL Md. 200 (ICC) is pretty clear (note the words
NO CASH):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toward.com%2Fcpz%2Fimg01248-20120606-1730-1.jpg&hash=65a7ba6f74990d50d3a209e0fafdd7aaa3da9fcf)
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on November 20, 2012, 02:51:42 AM
For us in Connecticut, the closest toll road is I-90/Massachusetts Turnpike. Once you hit Hartford, the pull through signs simply say "I-84 EAST | BOSTON." However, no mention is made of any tolls until you're close to Exit 3 in Sturbridge, MA (US Route 20). Only in that area do the signs say "TOLL ROAD":
http://goo.gl/maps/CliRz
These signs were put up in 2003-2004 and are a huge improvement over the original signs. The previous signs at this location had no reference to either I-90-MassPike being a toll road or Exit 3B being the last exit before you are committed to the toll road at all.
https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/massachusetts050/i-084_eb_exit_003a_05.jpg
Quote from: kphoger on November 20, 2012, 10:21:44 AM
Signs like "StatePASS Only" don't convey the necessary information as clearly as possible. A driver might assume that means no other states' transponders are accepted. What's needed is something like "StatePASS ONLY – NO CASH ACCEPTED".
I think "StatePASS ONLY" conveys the message that you MUST have a "StatePASS" device to pay the toll and no other form of payment would be accepted.
In northern California, there are two types of tolled facilities, Express Lanes and toll bridges. In the case of the Express Lanes, signs at entry points are clearly marked as "FasTrak ONLY"...
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images680/i-680_sb_exit_015_04.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images680/i-680_sb_exit_015_06.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images680/i-680_sb_exit_015_08.jpg)
For toll bridges, there are electronic signs posted before the toll plaza to indicate which lanes are FasTrak Only and which ones accept both FasTrak and cash...
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images680/i-680_nb_exit_058a_11.jpg)
The Golden Gate Bridge was supposed to go cashless in February of 2013 but has pushed that back a month due to testing delays. The Bay Area Toll Authority is watching the Golden Gate Bridge's conversion closely to see if it's possible to take the rest of the area's bridges cashless in the future.
Quote from: wxfree on November 19, 2012, 08:06:53 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 19, 2012, 07:23:44 PM
But then how do you deal with travelers out of the area? If I go to Texas, I can't use a toll road without paying an arm and a leg in fees.
EDIT: Don't even have to go that far. The A-25 bridge in Montreal is just two hours away.
I'd like to see a way to pay on the road. With modern technology we don't need expensive human toll collectors. The sensors could measure the vehicle and display the toll amount on a screen, and the machine could accept coins, bills, and credit cards. The pay lanes would be off to the side, segregated from the full-speed main lanes. This gives you a choice. If you don't have a tag and don't have money, or there's a long line in the pay lanes, or you just don't want to stop, you continue on the main lanes and get a bill later. If you don't want to pay more, or are driving a car that's rented or borrowed, you stop and pay. This gives maximum choice: use a tag, stop and pay, or get a bill. The Austin area toll roads present this choice until the end of the year, when all cash collection will be removed. Is it really so onerous to replace attended toll booths with automated machines?
I'll reprint exactly what I said before, striking out the items that may not be needed. Even if you take the toll collector out of the equation, you still have:
Signage,
booths, multiple collectors (one collector isn't going to work 24/7), money collection, accounting, security, buildings,
bathrooms, parking, congestion, training, lighting, barriers, rumble strips,
uniforms, etc.
I'm sure I forgot a dozen or so things.
It's not like it'll be an occasional motorist that won't have an electronic toll tag. Even if 20% of the motorists use cash or credit cards, you'll need several lanes just to handle these people.
Nothing is requiring the motorist to take the toll road. In the example of the ICC, for the past several decades motorists have used 95, 495 & 270 to get to the same destinations as the ICC. Those motorists without an EZ Pass can continue to do so.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 20, 2012, 01:35:07 PM
I'll reprint exactly what I said before, striking out the items that may not be needed. Even if you take the toll collector out of the equation, you still have:
Signage, booths, multiple collectors (one collector isn't going to work 24/7), money collection, accounting, security, buildings, bathrooms, parking, congestion, training, lighting, barriers, rumble strips, uniforms, etc.
I'm sure I forgot a dozen or so things.
It's not like it'll be an occasional motorist that won't have an electronic toll tag. Even if 20% of the motorists use cash or credit cards, you'll need several lanes just to handle these people.
Nothing is requiring the motorist to take the toll road. In the example of the ICC, for the past several decades motorists have used 95, 495 & 270 to get to the same destinations as the ICC. Those motorists without an EZ Pass can continue to do so.
I understand that it costs money to collect cash. This is why cash payers are charged higher rates. The highest rates are for Pay by Mail, which is what they're moving non-tag holders to. They're eliminating a less expensive option and replacing it with a more expensive one, so their concern evidently isn't cost. My point is that it may not be best to disincentivize use of the toll road by removing options. In some places it may be useful to ban non-tag traffic in order to reduce congestion, but some roads desperately need more traffic and revenue. The toll roads in my example, those around Austin, have received over half a billion dollars in fuel tax subsidies to fund construction and debt payments, and are projected to need more subsidies for decades. Pushing traffic away would be counterproductive.
A month or so ago I drove the new section of the Triangle Expwy. in NC, with the assurance that they never set up reciprocity with NJ. I also later drove a small cashless piece of Florida's Tpk. (Homestead Ext.), and I still haven't received a bill, though I thought they had much wider reciprocity. (I've attended a presentation on their plate-recognition methodology.)
I personally think that they should at LEAST have mostly transponder lanes with a few lanes on each end with a slot to put cash and coins in (no attendant). When I was 7 or so I saw that up in Maine on I-95. I saw that again earlier this year when I was up that way back in August, except we had an EZ-Pass this time so we just went right by.
Quote from: nwrgeek on November 20, 2012, 08:00:20 PM
I personally think that they should at LEAST have mostly transponder lanes with a few lanes on each end with a slot to put cash and coins in (no attendant). When I was 7 or so I saw that up in Maine on I-95. I saw that again earlier this year when I was up that way back in August, except we had an EZ-Pass this time so we just went right by.
From the time it opened in 1963 until about 1982, there were (never-staffed) exact-change coin drop toll barriers on all of the ramps on Maryland's I-95/JFK Highway between (but not including) present-day Exits 67 (Md. 43, White Marsh) and 109 (Md. 279, Elkton) for traffic that did not pass through the main barrier at Perryville, Maryland.
I think all of the remnants of these were removed long ago.
Delaware's I-95/JFK Highway/Delaware Turnpike had similar exact-change coin drop tolls for traffic that did not pass through the main barrier at Newark. I believe some remnants can still be seen on some of the ramps in Delaware.
Cash collection isn't really all that onerous. You just have to have a Turnpike Authority employee swap the cashboxes out at some low-traffic time (probably 3am or so) and take it back to HQ. While they're there they can put in new canisters of change and small bills. Then after the route is done, the full cashboxes are opened and counted up at HQ. All of these cashboxes remain locked while in transit; if someone wants to steal they have to steal the whole box, and if they do that, it will be a pretty obvious "Oh, we sent Joe out at 3:00am with canister #3599 full of $1 bills and then we never saw him again. Better press charges."
The main issue I see is–what are you going to do if some jackass who wads up their money like a slob gets it stuck in the bill acceptor during rush hour?
Quote from: kphoger on November 20, 2012, 10:21:44 AM
Signs like "StatePASS Only" don't convey the necessary information as clearly as possible. A driver might assume that means no other states' transponders are accepted. What's needed is something like "StatePASS ONLY – NO CASH ACCEPTED".
Sort of like this one along I-88 in Aurora?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_2721_zpsae0513a8.jpg&hash=399d877052b0a85114cfa0fe8c101d3ba56bce7c)
Quote from: Steve on November 20, 2012, 07:57:14 PM
A month or so ago I drove the new section of the Triangle Expwy. in NC, with the assurance that they never set up reciprocity with NJ. I also later drove a small cashless piece of Florida's Tpk. (Homestead Ext.), and I still haven't received a bill, though I thought they had much wider reciprocity. (I've attended a presentation on their plate-recognition methodology.)
My bill came about 45 - 60 days after I went thru the tolls on the Florida Tpk. 3 tolls...1 image was of the rear of the car; the other 2, the front. The pics were extremely clear - you could see my wife and I in the vehicle, what we were wearing, etc.
I could only imagine some of the images that they see!!!
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 06:28:17 AM
Cash collection isn't really all that onerous. You just have to have a Turnpike Authority employee swap the cashboxes out at some low-traffic time (probably 3am or so)
You mean during a time of day when it's dark and there's very little traffic? Sounds like an easy opportunity to commit a robbery.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2012, 08:36:13 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 06:28:17 AM
Cash collection isn't really all that onerous. You just have to have a Turnpike Authority employee swap the cashboxes out at some low-traffic time (probably 3am or so)
You mean during a time of day when it's dark and there's very little traffic? Sounds like an easy opportunity to commit a robbery.
Well, you can't really shut the lanes down to do drop in the middle of the day with traffic whizzing around. It would probably not be all that hard to schedule the Highway Patrol to have an officer present at the scheduled time, either–many turnpikes have a dedicated Highway Patrol troop that only responds to calls on their designated toll road. (There is a separate Oklahoma Highway Patrol troop dedicated to each of the OK toll roads, and a similar setup on the Kansas Turnpike.)
Quote from: wxfree on November 19, 2012, 11:15:05 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 19, 2012, 10:45:24 PM
I drove on the Bush Turnpike in Dallas a few years ago. I'm still waiting for my bill.
Getting a bill from NTTA depends on the number of transactions (toll points passed through). In order to avoid wasting money mailing bills for small amounts, they don't bill for fewer than 5 transactions. The practices are explained here https://www.ntta.org/custinfo/Pages/Billing-and-Payment.aspx (https://www.ntta.org/custinfo/Pages/Billing-and-Payment.aspx)
License plates from many states, especially those from far away, aren't (or weren't at least) in their database.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 20, 2012, 01:35:07 PM
I'll reprint exactly what I said before, striking out the items that may not be needed. Even if you take the toll collector out of the equation, you still have:
Signage, booths, multiple collectors (one collector isn't going to work 24/7), money collection, accounting, security, buildings, bathrooms, parking, congestion, training, lighting, barriers, rumble strips, uniforms, etc.
I'm sure I forgot a dozen or so things.
You need signage regardless. You'd still have booths, but I don't see why you would have buildings, parking, or training. NY doesn't use rumble strips for most Thruway barriers, but I can't imagine they're expensive given that we use them for every construction project. You need security, money collection, and accounting of some form for all-electronic as well.
If the opportunity cost of constructing toll booths is too high, perhaps the road shouldn't be tolled in the first place.
QuoteNothing is requiring the motorist to take the toll road. In the example of the ICC, for the past several decades motorists have used 95, 495 & 270 to get to the same destinations as the ICC. Those motorists without an EZ Pass can continue to do so.
I can't believe what you're saying here. People should be shoved onto inferior roads just because they're not from the area!?!? Perhaps the US should be dissolved too, since many people don't seem to like the "one nation" part very much! Part of being in a union means that you don't discriminate against non-locals.
I can't even use an all-electronic toll road that doesn't take E-ZPass even if I didn't mind them slapping on a $25 penalty for not having "our metro's local transponder that has lots of its own fees and is no good outside of the tiny area that makes it". My car is registered to my Mom and that likely won't change as I don't want to have to change out the plates on the car to those ugly yellow things NY now makes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 09:12:38 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2012, 08:36:13 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 06:28:17 AM
Cash collection isn't really all that onerous. You just have to have a Turnpike Authority employee swap the cashboxes out at some low-traffic time (probably 3am or so)
You mean during a time of day when it's dark and there's very little traffic? Sounds like an easy opportunity to commit a robbery.
Well, you can't really shut the lanes down to do drop in the middle of the day with traffic whizzing around. It would probably not be all that hard to schedule the Highway Patrol to have an officer present at the scheduled time, eithermany turnpikes have a dedicated Highway Patrol troop that only responds to calls on their designated toll road. (There is a separate Oklahoma Highway Patrol troop dedicated to each of the OK toll roads, and a similar setup on the Kansas Turnpike.)
Sure you can. Many of the GSP toll plazas are unmanned, along with the AC Expressway, just to name 2 toll roads. Access to the lane is maintained at almost all times. It's been done for 50+ years.
Quote from: deanej on November 21, 2012, 11:31:33 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 20, 2012, 01:35:07 PM
I'll reprint exactly what I said before, striking out the items that may not be needed. Even if you take the toll collector out of the equation, you still have:
Signage, booths, multiple collectors (one collector isn't going to work 24/7), money collection, accounting, security, buildings, bathrooms, parking, congestion, training, lighting, barriers, rumble strips, uniforms, etc.
I'm sure I forgot a dozen or so things.
You need signage regardless. You'd still have booths, but I don't see why you would have buildings, parking, or training. NY doesn't use rumble strips for most Thruway barriers, but I can't imagine they're expensive given that we use them for every construction project. You need security, money collection, and accounting of some form for all-electronic as well.
If the opportunity cost of constructing toll booths is too high, perhaps the road shouldn't be tolled in the first place.
QuoteNothing is requiring the motorist to take the toll road. In the example of the ICC, for the past several decades motorists have used 95, 495 & 270 to get to the same destinations as the ICC. Those motorists without an EZ Pass can continue to do so.
I can't believe what you're saying here. People should be shoved onto inferior roads just because they're not from the area!?!? Perhaps the US should be dissolved too, since many people don't seem to like the "one nation" part very much! Part of being in a union means that you don't discriminate against non-locals.
I can't even use an all-electronic toll road that doesn't take E-ZPass even if I didn't mind them slapping on a $25 penalty for not having "our metro's local transponder that has lots of its own fees and is no good outside of the tiny area that makes it". My car is registered to my Mom and that likely won't change as I don't want to have to change out the plates on the car to those ugly yellow things NY now makes.
Quote from: deanej on November 21, 2012, 11:31:33 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 20, 2012, 01:35:07 PM
I'll reprint exactly what I said before, striking out the items that may not be needed. Even if you take the toll collector out of the equation, you still have:
Signage, booths, multiple collectors (one collector isn't going to work 24/7), money collection, accounting, security, buildings, bathrooms, parking, congestion, training, lighting, barriers, rumble strips, uniforms, etc.
I'm sure I forgot a dozen or so things.
You need signage regardless. You'd still have booths, but I don't see why you would have buildings, parking, or training. NY doesn't use rumble strips for most Thruway barriers, but I can't imagine they're expensive given that we use them for every construction project. You need security, money collection, and accounting of some form for all-electronic as well.
If the opportunity cost of constructing toll booths is too high, perhaps the road shouldn't be tolled in the first place.
QuoteNothing is requiring the motorist to take the toll road. In the example of the ICC, for the past several decades motorists have used 95, 495 & 270 to get to the same destinations as the ICC. Those motorists without an EZ Pass can continue to do so.
I can't believe what you're saying here. People should be shoved onto inferior roads just because they're not from the area!?!? Perhaps the US should be dissolved too, since many people don't seem to like the "one nation" part very much! Part of being in a union means that you don't discriminate against non-locals.
I can't even use an all-electronic toll road that doesn't take E-ZPass even if I didn't mind them slapping on a $25 penalty for not having "our metro's local transponder that has lots of its own fees and is no good outside of the tiny area that makes it". My car is registered to my Mom and that likely won't change as I don't want to have to change out the plates on the car to those ugly yellow things NY now makes.
You need buildings because you need to house the electronic equipment required to run the toll equipment, an electric meter, etc. Maybe you can get away with a steel booth, or if fortunate, a box like one used to house traffic light equipment. But you need something.
Parking. Where is someone going to park to collect the money? Even if it's on the shoulder, that has to be created.
Training. You need to instruct someone how to pick up the money. Or do you just give someone the keys to go out there and do it? If that person was hit by a vehicle and wasn't given training manuals on the safe operation of collecting money, that would very easily come back on the toll authority for not providing training and safety equipment.
Signage: You'll need signs denoting the highway split for electronic toll passes and the cash/credit card side. And not just one, but one or two a mile (or two) away, another a half-mile...
Actually - we're all familiar with how highways work. You just don't have one sign for an exit or a toll plaza.
Inferior highways? Just a year ago, 95/495/270 was the main way to make the trip. Suddenly, it's now an inferior roadway?
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 06:28:17 AM
Cash collection isn't really all that onerous. You just have to have a Turnpike Authority employee swap the cashboxes out at some low-traffic time (probably 3am or so) and take it back to HQ. While they're there they can put in new canisters of change and small bills. Then after the route is done, the full cashboxes are opened and counted up at HQ. All of these cashboxes remain locked while in transit; if someone wants to steal they have to steal the whole box, and if they do that, it will be a pretty obvious "Oh, we sent Joe out at 3:00am with canister #3599 full of $1 bills and then we never saw him again. Better press charges."
The main issue I see is–what are you going to do if some jackass who wads up their money like a slob gets it stuck in the bill acceptor during rush hour?
Scott,
accounting for and
processing cash is an
expensive operation.
I think paper currency might cost more to process than coin (since coin can be counted and so forth using automated equipment), but large quantities of coin are expensive because of the weight.
I recall watching the transport of collected cash from a toll road facility many years ago (pre-E-ZPass). A state trooper or two would show up and get their long guns out (not sure if they were rifles or shotguns).
An armored car the size of a dump truck (complete with tandem axles) would pull in, and it would take the better part of an hour to get the cash loaded. And when loaded and pulling out, it was obvious to me that the truck was at or close to its registered weight (possibly 65,000 pounds), as the engine strained and groaned (producing a large cloud of particulate exhaust) to pull away with the load of cash (presumably the truck was then on its way to a cash room at a bank).
At this location, there was normally a cash pick-up six days a week.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2012, 08:36:13 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 06:28:17 AM
Cash collection isn't really all that onerous. You just have to have a Turnpike Authority employee swap the cashboxes out at some low-traffic time (probably 3am or so)
You mean during a time of day when it's dark and there's very little traffic? Sounds like an easy opportunity to commit a robbery.
ISTHA usually does it during typical daily working hours. With the coin collection baskets only on the ramps now, they stay out of the way while swapping the bins. No cops are present when they switch out the bins. Of course, what robber wants to deal with a large number of pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters? With 85% of users using I-Pass (EZ-Pass), they don't need swapping out as much. All cash is handled by toll collectors on the mainline.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2012, 02:00:03 PM
You need buildings because you need to house the electronic equipment required to run the toll equipment, an electric meter, etc. Maybe you can get away with a steel booth, or if fortunate, a box like one used to house traffic light equipment. But you need something.
I'd think you'd just need the same systems you use to run traffic lights.
Quote
Parking. Where is someone going to park to collect the money? Even if it's on the shoulder, that has to be created.
Why not just park in the regular shoulder?
Quote
Training. You need to instruct someone how to pick up the money. Or do you just give someone the keys to go out there and do it? If that person was hit by a vehicle and wasn't given training manuals on the safe operation of collecting money, that would very easily come back on the toll authority for not providing training and safety equipment.
How bureaucratic could this process possibly be? It's not that hard to drive to the booths, put the box of money in a truck, and replace it with an empty box.
Quote
Signage: You'll need signs denoting the highway split for electronic toll passes and the cash/credit card side. And not just one, but one or two a mile (or two) away, another a half-mile...
This is needed regardless of whether you have booths for non-transponder users or not, so it's moot.
Quote
Inferior highways? Just a year ago, 95/495/270 was the main way to make the trip. Suddenly, it's now an inferior roadway?
It takes TWICE AS LONG. Roadways are meant for the PUBLIC to use... not just people local enough to have whatever otherwise useless transponder is needed. Just because a way existed to get somewhere before the toll road existed doesn't mean that it's a good way.
Re: reciprocity - one assumes that even if the automated system cannot read your plate that it can save the image for someone to look at manually. The reason it doesn't happen is that for what might be a bill of a few dollars, this isn't worth it to a toll road agency to do.
I imagine, however, that traffic cameras are a different story. If I ran a red light in Oregon, the system might not be able to read my Connecticut plates, but I'm sure they'd have a cop look at the picture and figure it out.
Though I know that NYPD's plate recognition system that they have in their squad cars is capable of running all plates from all 50 states and all Canadian provinces.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 21, 2012, 03:46:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2012, 06:28:17 AM
Cash collection isn't really all that onerous. You just have to have a Turnpike Authority employee swap the cashboxes out at some low-traffic time (probably 3am or so) and take it back to HQ. While they're there they can put in new canisters of change and small bills. Then after the route is done, the full cashboxes are opened and counted up at HQ. All of these cashboxes remain locked while in transit; if someone wants to steal they have to steal the whole box, and if they do that, it will be a pretty obvious "Oh, we sent Joe out at 3:00am with canister #3599 full of $1 bills and then we never saw him again. Better press charges."
The main issue I see is–what are you going to do if some jackass who wads up their money like a slob gets it stuck in the bill acceptor during rush hour?
Scott, accounting for and processing cash is an expensive operation.
I think paper currency might cost more to process than coin (since coin can be counted and so forth using automated equipment), but large quantities of coin are expensive because of the weight.
I recall watching the transport of collected cash from a toll road facility many years ago (pre-E-ZPass). A state trooper or two would show up and get their long guns out (not sure if they were rifles or shotguns).
An armored car the size of a dump truck (complete with tandem axles) would pull in, and it would take the better part of an hour to get the cash loaded. And when loaded and pulling out, it was obvious to me that the truck was at or close to its registered weight (possibly 65,000 pounds), as the engine strained and groaned (producing a large cloud of particulate exhaust) to pull away with the load of cash (presumably the truck was then on its way to a cash room at a bank).
At this location, there was normally a cash pick-up six days a week.
Oh, trust me, I know. I work in a casino. I observe drop occurring at the machines every day. While I am not really allowed to go into Soft Count on a regular basis, it is my understanding (based on talking to several employees that used to work Soft Count) that they do have automated machines that count the money back there, separate it by denomination, and strap it up every 100 bills. The cashiers have smaller versions of them that fit on a countertop and just display a count of whatever money you send through them, no fancy strapping and sorting functions.
A cash box (http://rudysdeals.com/image/cache/Sep%20_74-500x500.jpg) for use with a modern bill acceptor devices is made of ABS plastic and is about (I'm guessing based on a mental estimation 8 inches deep by 8 inches tall by 5 inches wide. They have a stated capacity of 500 bills. There is a spring in the box that keeps the bills squashed so tightly together they're almost a solid block. If you were just dealing with paper money boxes you could likely fit an entire turnpike's worth of boxes into a typical sedan.
Accounting costs must be taken into consideration, but accounting would have to be done with EZ-Pass anyway. You also have to pay for the drop team, but you don't have to have three shifts worth of workers, so it is still cheaper than having a manned toll booth (though more expensive than all-electronic).
Quote from: deanej on November 21, 2012, 07:47:07 PM
Quote
Inferior highways? Just a year ago, 95/495/270 was the main way to make the trip. Suddenly, it's now an inferior roadway?
It takes TWICE AS LONG. Roadways are meant for the PUBLIC to use... not just people local enough to have whatever otherwise useless transponder is needed. Just because a way existed to get somewhere before the toll road existed doesn't mean that it's a good way.
I believe the Chicago area tollways were originally created to allow long-distance (read: not local) travelers to avoid going through downtown; I just assume this was also the case in other places. It seems quite ironic to me, then, that some folks are suggesting we sacrifice the needs of long-distance travelers to meet those of local commuters.
Toll roads are typically found on routes that are either long-distance corridors or urban bypasses–both of which cater to non-local traffic. They should therefore make it easy for said non-local traffic to use them, which (IMO) means not forcing them to give up the option of paying cash.
Quote from: deanej on November 21, 2012, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2012, 02:00:03 PM
Signage: You'll need signs denoting the highway split for electronic toll passes and the cash/credit card side. And not just one, but one or two a mile (or two) away, another a half-mile...
This is needed regardless of whether you have booths for non-transponder users or not, so it's moot.
Out of everything, this is a head scratcher. A toll road that is fully open-road tolling would only have a single sign, if that, approaching the toll point. Otherwise, they just have overhead gantrys with the toll equipment. Why would they have several large signs approaching that?
Besides, there are several roads that are transponder-only. Feel free to check out the signage on them, compared to signage on roads with open-road tolling & stop-to-pay tolling.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 23, 2012, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: deanej on November 21, 2012, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2012, 02:00:03 PM
Signage: You'll need signs denoting the highway split for electronic toll passes and the cash/credit card side. And not just one, but one or two a mile (or two) away, another a half-mile...
This is needed regardless of whether you have booths for non-transponder users or not, so it's moot.
Out of everything, this is a head scratcher. A toll road that is fully open-road tolling would only have a single sign, if that, approaching the toll point. Otherwise, they just have overhead gantrys with the toll equipment. Why would they have several large signs approaching that?
Besides, there are several roads that are transponder-only. Feel free to check out the signage on them, compared to signage on roads with open-road tolling & stop-to-pay tolling.
Check out the signage for the A-25 bridge (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5378.msg186214#msg186214) and the I-495 HOT lanes (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7481.msg185531#msg185531). Both are transponder-only, yet have more signage than ORT lanes in many areas (including the Spring Valley barrier on the Thruway), and much more than barrier-only (which is typically just a single yellow Toll Booths - 1/2 mile and maybe a "last exit before toll" sign if you're lucky).
I'm curious which state you're from so we could figure out what each other's expectations are. I've been in NY my whole life, so I compare everything to NYSDOT and NYSTA, which are both very conservative agencies and slow to adopt anything. We even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic. The Thousand Islands Bridge Authority has only just started "studying" the possibility of accepting E-ZPass, which itself signifies that hell has frozen over. The other St. Lawrence crossings and Niagara Falls bridges will switch over never.
Quote from: deanej on November 23, 2012, 01:02:57 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 23, 2012, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: deanej on November 21, 2012, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2012, 02:00:03 PM
Quote
Signage: You'll need signs denoting the highway split for electronic toll passes and the cash/credit card side. And not just one, but one or two a mile (or two) away, another a half-mile...
This is needed regardless of whether you have booths for non-transponder users or not, so it's moot.
Out of everything, this is a head scratcher. A toll road that is fully open-road tolling would only have a single sign, if that, approaching the toll point. Otherwise, they just have overhead gantrys with the toll equipment. Why would they have several large signs approaching that?
Besides, there are several roads that are transponder-only. Feel free to check out the signage on them, compared to signage on roads with open-road tolling & stop-to-pay tolling.
Check out the signage for the A-25 bridge (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5378.msg186214#msg186214) and the I-495 HOT lanes (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7481.msg185531#msg185531). Both are transponder-only, yet have more signage than ORT lanes in many areas (including the Spring Valley barrier on the Thruway), and much more than barrier-only (which is typically just a single yellow Toll Booths - 1/2 mile and maybe a "last exit before toll" sign if you're lucky).
I'm curious which state you're from so we could figure out what each other's expectations are. I've been in NY my whole life, so I compare everything to NYSDOT and NYSTA, which are both very conservative agencies and slow to adopt anything. We even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic. The Thousand Islands Bridge Authority has only just started "studying" the possibility of accepting E-ZPass, which itself signifies that hell has frozen over. The other St. Lawrence crossings and Niagara Falls bridges will switch over never.
Those examples are splits of a non-tolled highway and a tolled highway.
Think of the Loop 49 in Texas, Toronto's 407 (http://goo.gl/maps/tghn0), or Florida Turnpike where they have made the modifications to go all cashless tolling. There is no split; there's nothing for the car driver to decide while on the highway. They are going thru the toll lanes, whether they like it or not.
Quote from: deanej on November 23, 2012, 01:02:57 PM
We even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic.
The toll crossings that are intra-New York State and don't accept E-ZPass should (in a perfect world) be compelled to accept electronic payment by the New York legislature (I presume that it is within the power of the legislature to force the issue).
The toll bridges between New York State and Canada are a different matter.
Though it would be nice if Highway 407 in Ontario would join the E-ZPass IAG.
Quote from: deanej on November 23, 2012, 01:02:57 PMWe even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic.
I've never seen a toll booth that accepts credit cards.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 23, 2012, 07:37:02 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 23, 2012, 01:02:57 PMWe even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic.
I've never seen a toll booth that accepts credit cards.
They do exist. The NJ Turnpike Authority considered them. While I can't comment on what the outcome of that consideration is, I can say that their throughput is certainly no better than cash lanes, and quite possibly worse.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 23, 2012, 07:37:02 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 23, 2012, 01:02:57 PMWe even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic.
I've never seen a toll booth that accepts credit cards.
The unmanned ramp tolls on the privately-owned Dulles Greenway (Va. 267) in Loudoun County, Va. accept most credit and debit cards. The Ohio Turnpike also takes plastic at its toll collection points.
Toll roads and toll crossings in the European Union nations usually accept Visa and Eurocard (MasterCard) if the toll collection points are staffed.
I think the Airport Drive exit on VA 895 also takes credit cards.
Quote from: Steve on November 23, 2012, 08:05:31 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 23, 2012, 07:37:02 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 23, 2012, 01:02:57 PMWe even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic.
I've never seen a toll booth that accepts credit cards.
They do exist. The NJ Turnpike Authority considered them. While I can't comment on what the outcome of that consideration is, I can say that their throughput is certainly no better than cash lanes, and quite possibly worse.
The Indiana Toll Road takes credit cards, at both attended and unattended lanes. They are a convenience to travelers. I'd like to see figures on throughput compared to cash transactions. Credit cards don't require making change, so CC transactions can be pretty quick.
Working from memory here, but don't the mainline toll booths on PA 43 (Mon-Fayette) also take credit cards?
Given the amount of tampering that's been going on with credit card readers, I'd be very leary of swiping my credit card at a toll booth. Cash or transponder works for me.
Note: There was a large theft of customer's credit card numbers when thieves compromised the credit card readers at a number of grocery store self-checkout lanes. Even before this happened, I made it a point to never use a credit card in the self-checkout lane.
Quote from: theline on November 23, 2012, 08:34:17 PM
Quote from: Steve on November 23, 2012, 08:05:31 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 23, 2012, 07:37:02 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 23, 2012, 01:02:57 PMWe even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic.
I've never seen a toll booth that accepts credit cards.
They do exist. The NJ Turnpike Authority considered them. While I can't comment on what the outcome of that consideration is, I can say that their throughput is certainly no better than cash lanes, and quite possibly worse.
The Indiana Toll Road takes credit cards, at both attended and unattended lanes. They are a convenience to travelers. I'd like to see figures on throughput compared to cash transactions. Credit cards don't require making change, so CC transactions can be pretty quick.
I believe the issue with CC transactions stems from the time to reach over, insert the card, have the transaction process through to the CC company and come back approved. Then you have some that aren't approved, people who insert the stripe the wrong way, debit/credit mixups... If everyone knew what they were doing, it would probably be 2-3 times faster.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 23, 2012, 07:37:02 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 23, 2012, 01:02:57 PMWe even have toll bridges here that don't accept credit cards let alone transponders or going all-electronic.
I've never seen a toll booth that accepts credit cards.
The Thruway does, as does the Thousand Islands Bridge. They're both all staffed lanes (even the ones where you just get a ticket, and the ticket is the same regardless of what vehicle class you are).
Quote from: Steve on November 23, 2012, 10:13:38 PM
I believe the issue with CC transactions stems from the time to reach over, insert the card, have the transaction process through to the CC company and come back approved. Then you have some that aren't approved, people who insert the stripe the wrong way, debit/credit mixups... If everyone knew what they were doing, it would probably be 2-3 times faster.
Yes, idiots can mishandle their cedit cards, but they can also fumble around their cars finding coins or drop them before getting them deposited. There's no accounting for the level of human stupidity.
I should also mention that in Canada, automated credit card readers are used in parking garages (unlike the US where there's a manned booth), so it's not a stretch IMO to see them on highways.
Quote from: deanej on November 25, 2012, 04:06:37 PM
I should also mention that in Canada, automated credit card readers are used in parking garages (unlike the US where there's a manned booth), so it's not a stretch IMO to see them on highways.
Automated credit card readers are used in many parking garages in the US as well.
Quote from: Brandon on November 25, 2012, 04:48:08 PM
Quote from: deanej on November 25, 2012, 04:06:37 PM
I should also mention that in Canada, automated credit card readers are used in parking garages (unlike the US where there's a manned booth), so it's not a stretch IMO to see them on highways.
Automated credit card readers are used in many parking garages in the US as well.
We have a number of garages here that give you the option of not taking a ticket when you enter and instead inserting your credit card on entry and exit. I find it reasonably convenient, though I suppose doing that doesn't let you bail out to go see the attendant if it charges you the wrong amount.
We also have quite a few garages that use the "E-Z Out" machines where you take your ticket with you, pay at the machine (often either cash or credit/debit) before returning to your car, then leave. I like this as well, though I do have to concede that when it is the ONLY payment option it tends to cause problems because some people (in my experience, a disproportionate number of them elderly) seem never to notice all the signs saying that you have to pay at the machine and then they drive up to the exit expecting to find a manned booth and it creates a traffic mess if the garage is crowded.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 09:25:40 AM
We also have quite a few garages that use the "E-Z Out" machines where you take your ticket with you, pay at the machine (often either cash or credit/debit) before returning to your car, then leave. I like this as well, though I do have to concede that when it is the ONLY payment option it tends to cause problems because some people (in my experience, a disproportionate number of them elderly) seem never to notice all the signs saying that you have to pay at the machine and then they drive up to the exit expecting to find a manned booth and it creates a traffic mess if the garage is crowded.
I regularly park in a garage that does this, and I actually find it inconvenient. The garage is on top of a grocery store, so obviously caters to shoppers (who even get free parking). It's a pain to have to carry your groceries over to the machine, put them down to pay, then pick them back up and carry them to your car (you can't easily just go straight to your car then go back because there is only a machine on the ground floor). Also, the only way to get up to the parking levels from where the machine is is an elevator - helpful with bags of groceries, but without a lot of groceries it'd be much easier to just go straight up the stairs, which are located right by the store entrance in the front, while the pay machine and elevator are around the side of the building, along the car ramp by the office.
Since you still have to insert your ticket when you leave, it just seems like it's pointless. I'd rather just pay when I leave. Especially since it's free.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 26, 2012, 09:40:57 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 09:25:40 AM
We also have quite a few garages that use the "E-Z Out" machines where you take your ticket with you, pay at the machine (often either cash or credit/debit) before returning to your car, then leave. I like this as well, though I do have to concede that when it is the ONLY payment option it tends to cause problems because some people (in my experience, a disproportionate number of them elderly) seem never to notice all the signs saying that you have to pay at the machine and then they drive up to the exit expecting to find a manned booth and it creates a traffic mess if the garage is crowded.
I regularly park in a garage that does this, and I actually find it inconvenient. The garage is on top of a grocery store, so obviously caters to shoppers (who even get free parking). It's a pain to have to carry your groceries over to the machine, put them down to pay, then pick them back up and carry them to your car (you can't easily just go straight to your car then go back because there is only a machine on the ground floor). Also, the only way to get up to the parking levels from where the machine is is an elevator - helpful with bags of groceries, but without a lot of groceries it'd be much easier to just go straight up the stairs, which are located right by the store entrance in the front, while the pay machine and elevator are around the side of the building, along the car ramp by the office.
Since you still have to insert your ticket when you leave, it just seems like it's pointless. I'd rather just pay when I leave. Especially since it's free.
In that situation I think I'd agree with you that it would be inconvenient. Most of the time when I park in a pay garage it's because I'm going to Verizon Center (well, not so much this winter due to the lockout) and so are most of the other people, so carrying loads of stuff isn't an issue.
I wonder if the people who are confounded by the idea of the "E-Z Out" garage, or the cashless toll road, are also confused by the self-checkout line at the grocery store.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 09:50:00 AM
In that situation I think I'd agree with you that it would be inconvenient. Most of the time when I park in a pay garage it's because I'm going to Verizon Center (well, not so much this winter due to the lockout) and so are most of the other people, so carrying loads of stuff isn't an issue.
Oh this setup can work wonderfully for event/sports venues, if the pay station is in the venue. For example, TD Garden here in Boston has you pay at windows on the concourse before taking an elevator back down to the garage, so you're already on the way and it works out great.
QuoteI wonder if the people who are confounded by the idea of the "E-Z Out" garage, or the cashless toll road, are also confused by the self-checkout line at the grocery store.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Having worked at a grocery store (albeit one without self checkouts), I can affirm that people are absolutely helpless. No one was even capable of using the lottery machine, much less the coinstar machine or vending machines. And every time I go to a grocery store with self checkouts I see at least one person who needs help.
Those are really quite pointless, because so many people have trouble with them that they still need to have an attendant monitoring them, so I can't see it even really saving the store any money.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 09:50:00 AM
I wonder if the people who are confounded by the idea of the "E-Z Out" garage, or the cashless toll road, are also confused by the self-checkout line at the grocery store.
Speaking of confounding, have you ever watched people try to use the Farecard machines in the Washington Metrorail system? Especially at stops like Washington Union Station (near my office) and National Airport, with plenty of out-of-town people that have not ridden the system before?
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 26, 2012, 10:48:49 AM
....
Those are really quite pointless, because so many people have trouble with them that they still need to have an attendant monitoring them, so I can't see it even really saving the store any money.
They'd have to have the attendant monitoring them anyway because of age-restricted purchases, such as beer and wine. At the store where we shop, the attendant is also needed to override the system to scan certain coupons because the self-checkout will only scan the UPC-style barcodes but some coupons use a different type. BUT they have one attendant monitoring four self-checkout lanes, so I suppose it does reduce the number of people needed.
The store where we do our grocery shopping also has some self-scanner devices (they call it the "SCAN IT!" system) where you scan your grocery-store card when you arrive, take a scanner, and scan your groceries as you go. Since we use the reusable bags, we bag them as we go. Saves a lot of time at the checkout because all you do is scan an "end of order" barcode, then scan your grocery-store card again, enter the number of reusable bags (they give you 5¢ off per bag), scan any coupons, and pay (also if you buy beer or wine the attendant has to come over to tell it you're legal). It works really well most of the time and it also gives you discounts on various things based on your shopping history. But the people who don't understand the self-checkout are COMPLETELY CONFOUNDED when they see you waiting on line to pay but not putting any of your groceries on the checkout belt! I like the system because we use the reusable bags, which means I prefer to bag the groceries myself since I have a sense for what I'm buying and how it all fits best into the bags, whereas the cashiers/bag boys just stuff things in any old way.
I suppose this is getting totally off-topic (though you're a moderator so I guess that makes it OK!). I can turn it back on-topic, though, because in my mind some of the confusion some people display over things like self-checkout or E-Z Out parking spills over to things like electronic toll collection. My father is reasonably up to speed on technology for someone in his mid-60s, with the exception that he absolutely refuses ever to use an ATM under any circumstances. But for some reason back around 1999 or 2000 when I first got a Virginia Smart Tag (predecessor to E-ZPass), he was absolutely confounded by the device because he couldn't understand "how you reload it"–that is, how you add money when the balance gets low. He thought you had to touch it to something to put money on it. I have absolutely no idea how he got that idea. After I explained how it works, and after he experienced the Smart Tag in use when I taped it to the windshield in his car when we were going to play golf one weekend, he changed his tune and now he and my mother have two E-ZPasses for their three cars.
But it makes me think that if my father was skeptical of electronic toll collection based on his misunderstanding of how it works, imagine how many other people must have totally off-the-wall reasons for not getting transponders or the like. (BTW, my parents do not like the self-checkout lane at the supermarket because my mom doesn't want to be bothered bagging her own groceries. She doesn't use the self-scanner because she didn't know how to get credit for the reusable bags.)
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 26, 2012, 10:56:06 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 09:50:00 AM
I wonder if the people who are confounded by the idea of the "E-Z Out" garage, or the cashless toll road, are also confused by the self-checkout line at the grocery store.
Speaking of confounding, have you ever watched people try to use the Farecard machines in the Washington Metrorail system? Especially at stops like Washington Union Station (near my office) and National Airport, with plenty of out-of-town people that have not ridden the system before?
Yes, absolutely. When I commuted on the subway I also regularly saw tourist families trying to use one Farecard for the entire family. I remember telling a tourist at the Vienna stop that it wouldn't let him do that and he got annoyed: "You're telling me I have to buy a separate Farecard for each of five people?!!!" Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, dude. Sorry I tried to do you a favor!
I liked it when they had the SmarTrip Only faregates at Vienna because they let those of us with those cards (I got mine the first day they were available back in 1999 and I still have the same card) bypass the confused tourists. I understand why those units didn't work well at a stop like Navy Yard, though, because after a ballgame it's simply too much of a traffic jam to make people sort themselves out into the appropriate queue.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 09:50:00 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 26, 2012, 09:40:57 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 09:25:40 AM
We also have quite a few garages that use the "E-Z Out" machines where you take your ticket with you, pay at the machine (often either cash or credit/debit) before returning to your car, then leave. I like this as well, though I do have to concede that when it is the ONLY payment option it tends to cause problems because some people (in my experience, a disproportionate number of them elderly) seem never to notice all the signs saying that you have to pay at the machine and then they drive up to the exit expecting to find a manned booth and it creates a traffic mess if the garage is crowded.
I regularly park in a garage that does this, and I actually find it inconvenient. The garage is on top of a grocery store, so obviously caters to shoppers (who even get free parking). It's a pain to have to carry your groceries over to the machine, put them down to pay, then pick them back up and carry them to your car (you can't easily just go straight to your car then go back because there is only a machine on the ground floor). Also, the only way to get up to the parking levels from where the machine is is an elevator - helpful with bags of groceries, but without a lot of groceries it'd be much easier to just go straight up the stairs, which are located right by the store entrance in the front, while the pay machine and elevator are around the side of the building, along the car ramp by the office.
Since you still have to insert your ticket when you leave, it just seems like it's pointless. I'd rather just pay when I leave. Especially since it's free.
In that situation I think I'd agree with you that it would be inconvenient. Most of the time when I park in a pay garage it's because I'm going to Verizon Center (well, not so much this winter due to the lockout) and so are most of the other people, so carrying loads of stuff isn't an issue.
I wonder if the people who are confounded by the idea of the "E-Z Out" garage, or the cashless toll road, are also confused by the self-checkout line at the grocery store.
Why don't they just put the machine at the exit of the parking garage? Problems solved.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 11:10:48 AM
they give you 5¢ off per bag
Wow, that's nice; in my part of the country, you have to buy the reusable bag from the store and get no discount.
Quote from: deanej on November 26, 2012, 11:25:44 AM
Why don't they just put the machine at the exit of the parking garage? Problems solved.
I believe the idea is to move the time-consuming part of the process (paying) to a location away from the exit to speed the process. But you raise a valid issue because of the problem of the people who ignore all the signs telling you to pay before you return to your car. They drive up to the exit and then sit there in everyone else's way. The smart operators put an additional machine near the garage exit to deal with precisely those sorts of people. Unfortunately, I've parked in a number of garages whose operators don't do that.
Quote from: deanej on November 26, 2012, 11:25:44 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 11:10:48 AM
they give you 5¢ off per bag
Wow, that's nice; in my part of the country, you have to buy the reusable bag from the store and get no discount.
You could always use a cardboard box instead. Back in the 1980s a local discount grocery store chain called Shoppers Food Warehouse charged you 3¢ a bag for every bag you needed, but they also made all their cardboard boxes available for free. Most people used those instead of buying the bags.
(I bought our current reusable bags, but of course you don't have to buy separate ones for each store. I bought them mainly because they're more durable and hold more stuff than the plastic bags. I wasn't motivated by environmental reasons or by a bag discount–indeed the store where I did most of the shopping back when I got the bags does not give a discount.)
The District of Columbia passed a bag tax law whereby stores must charge you 5¢ for every bag you need. That includes less-obvious places like liquor stores. Montgomery County in Maryland has a similar law; don't know about elsewhere. DC's law was ostensibly for the purpose of reducing plastic-bag litter in the city.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 11:10:48 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 26, 2012, 10:48:49 AM
....
Those are really quite pointless, because so many people have trouble with them that they still need to have an attendant monitoring them, so I can't see it even really saving the store any money.
They'd have to have the attendant monitoring them anyway because of age-restricted purchases, such as beer and wine. At the store where we shop, the attendant is also needed to override the system to scan certain coupons because the self-checkout will only scan the UPC-style barcodes but some coupons use a different type. BUT they have one attendant monitoring four self-checkout lanes, so I suppose it does reduce the number of people needed.
This is true - one attendant can monitor more lanes than a regular checkout line, but you have to factor in the decreased throughput. I'm sure 4 self checkouts still handle a higher volume than 1 standard checkout, but self checkouts take longer for people to get through (dealing with the computer, trying to scan things, bagging and scanning everything yourself rather than having 2 or 3 people), so I wonder where the trade-off point is.
QuoteThe store where we do our grocery shopping also has some self-scanner devices (they call it the "SCAN IT!" system) where you scan your grocery-store card when you arrive, take a scanner, and scan your groceries as you go. Since we use the reusable bags, we bag them as we go. Saves a lot of time at the checkout because all you do is scan an "end of order" barcode, then scan your grocery-store card again, enter the number of reusable bags (they give you 5¢ off per bag), scan any coupons, and pay (also if you buy beer or wine the attendant has to come over to tell it you're legal). It works really well most of the time and it also gives you discounts on various things based on your shopping history. But the people who don't understand the self-checkout are COMPLETELY CONFOUNDED when they see you waiting on line to pay but not putting any of your groceries on the checkout belt! I like the system because we use the reusable bags, which means I prefer to bag the groceries myself since I have a sense for what I'm buying and how it all fits best into the bags, whereas the cashiers/bag boys just stuff things in any old way.
I would use that system in a heartbeat! What stores have it? When I lived in VA I worked for a local Hampton Roads-area chain and the only exposure to self checkouts I had down there was Food Lion and Kroger.
QuoteI suppose this is getting totally off-topic (though you're a moderator so I guess that makes it OK!).
Close enough. ;-)
QuoteI can turn it back on-topic, though, because in my mind some of the confusion some people display over things like self-checkout or E-Z Out parking spills over to things like electronic toll collection. My father is reasonably up to speed on technology for someone in his mid-60s, with the exception that he absolutely refuses ever to use an ATM under any circumstances. But for some reason back around 1999 or 2000 when I first got a Virginia Smart Tag (predecessor to E-ZPass), he was absolutely confounded by the device because he couldn't understand "how you reload it"–that is, how you add money when the balance gets low. He thought you had to touch it to something to put money on it. I have absolutely no idea how he got that idea. After I explained how it works, and after he experienced the Smart Tag in use when I taped it to the windshield in his car when we were going to play golf one weekend, he changed his tune and now he and my mother have two E-ZPasses for their three cars.
To be fair, that is a very valid assumption. Almost everything else reloadable needs to be done in person (reloadable credit cards, giftcards, transit farecards, to an extent even bank cards). And honestly, I sometimes wish there was an option to reload in person. You can reload Massachusetts E-ZPasses at any RMV [DMV] office, which, as you can imagine, no one wants to do. I've always thought it would be helpful to have reload kiosk things at, for example, turnpike service plazas, considering that the Gulf convenience stores in every MassPike plaza already sell preloaded transponders.
QuoteBut it makes me think that if my father was skeptical of electronic toll collection based on his misunderstanding of how it works, imagine how many other people must have totally off-the-wall reasons for not getting transponders or the like.
Generally the only complaint I hear about not wanting an E-ZPass is the ability to track our movements, which can be easily dismissed by bringing up all the other ways the government already can if it wants to. Though other people, my mother included, did wait a while (my mother waited until I got one on my own) to get an E-ZPass because they don't like anything that automatically takes money out of a bank account, like automatic bill pay, just in case they forget and don't have enough money in the account.
Quote(BTW, my parents do not like the self-checkout lane at the supermarket because my mom doesn't want to be bothered bagging her own groceries. She doesn't use the self-scanner because she didn't know how to get credit for the reusable bags.)
Mine is the reverse - she refuses to let other people bag her groceries. Probably because the majority of baggers at the closest supermarket to her are mentally challenged (literally) people that are a hassle to deal with and don't seem to understand concepts as basic as bread not going on the bottom of a bag, or bringing reusable bags means we want only reusable bags, not plastic inside reusable bags. Before anyone calls us insensitive, I'm all for them having jobs, and I'm not mean to them or anything, I just don't feel like they can do it satisfactorily.
Quote from: deanej on November 26, 2012, 11:25:44 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 11:10:48 AM
they give you 5¢ off per bag
Wow, that's nice; in my part of the country, you have to buy the reusable bag from the store and get no discount.
Almost every store I've ever been to in VA, NY, CT, MA, NH, and ME has given a 5¢ discount per reusable bag. I've even seen the occasional 10¢. And you don't have to have a store brand bag - it can be any kind of bag.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 26, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
....
QuoteThe store where we do our grocery shopping also has some self-scanner devices (they call it the "SCAN IT!" system) where you scan your grocery-store card when you arrive, take a scanner, and scan your groceries as you go. Since we use the reusable bags, we bag them as we go. Saves a lot of time at the checkout because all you do is scan an "end of order" barcode, then scan your grocery-store card again, enter the number of reusable bags (they give you 5¢ off per bag), scan any coupons, and pay (also if you buy beer or wine the attendant has to come over to tell it you're legal). It works really well most of the time and it also gives you discounts on various things based on your shopping history. But the people who don't understand the self-checkout are COMPLETELY CONFOUNDED when they see you waiting on line to pay but not putting any of your groceries on the checkout belt! I like the system because we use the reusable bags, which means I prefer to bag the groceries myself since I have a sense for what I'm buying and how it all fits best into the bags, whereas the cashiers/bag boys just stuff things in any old way.
I would use that system in a heartbeat! What stores have it? When I lived in VA I worked for a local Hampton Roads-area chain and the only exposure to self checkouts I had down there was Food Lion and Kroger.
....
Many, though not all, Giant stores in Northern Virginia have it. When you enter the store this display is off to one side; you scan your card and a scanner lights up and you take that scanner.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2F7c6979ab.jpg&hash=65b21755b9b82bf07bbbc992ab6be4a24a4aa904)
The shopping cart has a metal doohickey on top that's sort of like a holster and you put the scanner in that. A lot of things can be scanned without removing the device from the cart (you press the yellow button to scan).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2F5004928f.jpg&hash=294951cc6d905f6b6c3756c9df5e0f66966be2ee)
When you're done and you get to the checkout, you scan this barcode first (they've since changed the setup slightly, mainly to use a better sign, but the process is the same) and then you scan your store card, coupons, enter the number of reusable bags, get carded if necessary, and pay.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2Fce718909.jpg&hash=7e71b5eccd072f290f6f7c1a4d234f42c77bc3b1)
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 26, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
....
QuoteI can turn it back on-topic, though, because in my mind some of the confusion some people display over things like self-checkout or E-Z Out parking spills over to things like electronic toll collection. My father is reasonably up to speed on technology for someone in his mid-60s, with the exception that he absolutely refuses ever to use an ATM under any circumstances. But for some reason back around 1999 or 2000 when I first got a Virginia Smart Tag (predecessor to E-ZPass), he was absolutely confounded by the device because he couldn't understand "how you reload it"–that is, how you add money when the balance gets low. He thought you had to touch it to something to put money on it. I have absolutely no idea how he got that idea. After I explained how it works, and after he experienced the Smart Tag in use when I taped it to the windshield in his car when we were going to play golf one weekend, he changed his tune and now he and my mother have two E-ZPasses for their three cars.
To be fair, that is a very valid assumption. Almost everything else reloadable needs to be done in person (reloadable credit cards, giftcards, transit farecards, to an extent even bank cards). And honestly, I sometimes wish there was an option to reload in person. You can reload Massachusetts E-ZPasses at any RMV [DMV] office, which, as you can imagine, no one wants to do. I've always thought it would be helpful to have reload kiosk things at, for example, turnpike service plazas, considering that the Gulf convenience stores in every MassPike plaza already sell preloaded transponders.
I know in Virginia you can log onto your account and make a one-time payment to top up your account to a higher balance. It's useful if you're driving a long distance on a number of tolled facilities, say if you're going from Virginia to Maine, because the automatic replenishment doesn't always work immediately. I've done this in the past and I guess now I could do it via iPhone or iPad mid-trip if needed....though I suppose now I'm less likely to need it because we have two E-ZPasses and the way Virginia does it means we have to have the minimum balance per transponder but they draw from the same pool of dollars (so, basically, when it replenishes it tops us up to $70 instead of $35).
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 26, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
Generally the only complaint I hear about not wanting an E-ZPass is the ability to track our movements, which can be easily dismissed by bringing up all the other ways the government already can if it wants to. Though other people, my mother included, did wait a while (my mother waited until I got one on my own) to get an E-ZPass because they don't like anything that automatically takes money out of a bank account, like automatic bill pay, just in case they forget and don't have enough money in the account.
I've heard that, and I've also heard people INSIST that states give speeding tickets using E-ZPass data. People who believe that often simply cannot be persuaded otherwise.
I also know one fellow who refuses to get an E-ZPass because he opposes the Dulles Metrorail project here in Virginia and he has this idea that getting an E-ZPass would mean he's supporting the project (even if he doesn't drive on the Dulles Toll Road, which I know he tries to avoid doing). But with someone like that you just shake your head and say, "He's weird."
That is absolutely genius!
I believe the NJ Turnpike experimented with Credit Cards way back in the mid-1970's. At the time it was a failed experiment, although I don't remember why. The results today may be a bit different. However, with the majority of travelers using EZ Pass, and the eventual conversion to all-electronic/video tolling, it's not a major concern to them.
As for parking garages, I think at one point it was invisioned that EZ Pass would be used to pay for parking as well. I don't know if the cost was too high or there were other challanges, but the only parking garages I'm aware of that accept EZ Pass are authority-owned parking garages, such as the Newark Airport (PANYNJ) and a garage in Atlantic City (AC Expressway).
Many parking garages also will allow you to insert a credit card when you arrive at the parking garage, rather than take a ticket. When you leave, you swipe your credit card again, and it instantly matches your CC in time to charge your account.
TOLLROADSnews: Thanksgiving trip Frederick MD to Princeton NJ sees Penn Pike cash lanes most congested (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6288)
QuoteA 370 mile Thanksgiving round trip to a son's place in Princeton NJ and back involved the use of six toll facilities:
- Pennsylvania Turnpike Harrisburg to Trenton
- DRJTBC US1 Trenton
- New Jersey Turnpike southern end
- DRBA Delaware Memorial Bridge
- Delaware Turnpike
- Kennedy Highway and Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, MdTA
QuoteThe good news is that although traffic was often heavy nowhere did we experience any delays. With our Penn Pike E-ZPass we were able to drive straight through all the toll points.
We saw an E-ZPass parking garage in downtown Richmond during the meet tour. (citation needed)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 26, 2012, 01:50:26 PM
I believe the NJ Turnpike experimented with Credit Cards way back in the mid-1970's. At the time it was a failed experiment, although I don't remember why. The results today may be a bit different. However, with the majority of travelers using EZ Pass, and the eventual conversion to all-electronic/video tolling, it's not a major concern to them.
....
I wonder if back then they had to take an imprint and have the driver sign the slip, given that all the various card readers and the related relaxation of signature requirements came along later (remember how you used to have to sign the slip at the gas station?). That would be a major reason it flopped if that's how it worked. This all is part of the reason why most fast-food places didn't take credit cards for many years. Taking an imprint, filling in the slip, and having the customer sign it, or printing a receipt and getting a signature, took too long.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 04:28:18 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 26, 2012, 01:50:26 PM
I believe the NJ Turnpike experimented with Credit Cards way back in the mid-1970's. At the time it was a failed experiment, although I don't remember why. The results today may be a bit different. However, with the majority of travelers using EZ Pass, and the eventual conversion to all-electronic/video tolling, it's not a major concern to them.
....
I wonder if back then they had to take an imprint and have the driver sign the slip, given that all the various card readers and the related relaxation of signature requirements came along later (remember how you used to have to sign the slip at the gas station?). That would be a major reason it flopped if that's how it worked. This all is part of the reason why most fast-food places didn't take credit cards for many years. Taking an imprint, filling in the slip, and having the customer sign it, or printing a receipt and getting a signature, took too long.
I'm not in retail, so I claim no authority. However, my common sense tells me that fast food restaurants love credit cards because their employees don't have to take the time to make change, they don't risk change-making errors, and they don't have to handle as much cash, with less chance of loss due to theft. My experience paying with a card at a fast food is that I'm at the window for a shorter time.
All of that would seem to apply to toll booths.
Quote from: theline on November 26, 2012, 10:59:47 PM
I'm not in retail, so I claim no authority. However, my common sense tells me that fast food restaurants love credit cards because their employees don't have to take the time to make change, they don't risk change-making errors, and they don't have to handle as much cash, with less chance of loss due to theft. My experience paying with a card at a fast food is that I'm at the window for a shorter time.
All of that would seem to apply to toll booths.
I am in retail and we have a love-hate relationship with credit cards. While we (and our customers) love the convenience, I despise the processing fees we have to fork over to Visa, Mastercard, Discover and American Express each month (as much as 4.5 cents for each dollar charged). While change-making errors are reduced, because our registers don't have a built-in mag stripe reader, we have to run credit card transactions through a separate terminal where there is a chance the amount keyed in is incorrect. It doesn't happen too often but it does happen.
I've never used a credit card to pay at a fast-food drive thru but my waits when I pay cash are pretty short.
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 27, 2012, 01:40:24 AM
Quote from: theline on November 26, 2012, 10:59:47 PM
I'm not in retail, so I claim no authority. However, my common sense tells me that fast food restaurants love credit cards because their employees don't have to take the time to make change, they don't risk change-making errors, and they don't have to handle as much cash, with less chance of loss due to theft. My experience paying with a card at a fast food is that I'm at the window for a shorter time.
All of that would seem to apply to toll booths.
I am in retail and we have a love-hate relationship with credit cards. While we (and our customers) love the convenience, I despise the processing fees we have to fork over to Visa, Mastercard, Discover and American Express each month (as much as 4.5 cents for each dollar charged). While change-making errors are reduced, because our registers don't have a built-in mag stripe reader, we have to run credit card transactions through a separate terminal where there is a chance the amount keyed in is incorrect. It doesn't happen too often but it does happen.
I've never used a credit card to pay at a fast-food drive thru but my waits when I pay cash are pretty short.
Well it's only recently (past 5 or 10 years) that fast food decided to accept credit/debit cards at all! Fast food was a whole lot less convenient back in the dark ages when they were cash only.
Quote from: realjd on November 27, 2012, 09:23:52 AM
Well it's only recently (past 5 or 10 years) that fast food decided to accept credit/debit cards at all! Fast food was a whole lot less convenient back in the dark ages when they were cash only.
I'm willing to bet it's longer than that, because I can't ever in my life recall going to a fast food restaurant and having it not accept credit cards.
In general, customers using credit cards spend more than those that don't, so it helps increase sales as well. Someone may normally get a burger, fries and soda paying cash, but will add on a apple pie or splurge for a milkshake with a credit card. You may say "But that's only another dollar". The restaurant sees it as receiving another 10% - 20% of revenue from that customer.
As more and more people carry less and less cash, fast-food restaurants and convenience stores have decided to accept credit. One of the largest downsides is the transaction fee, which can average 20 - 25 cents, plus nearly 3% of the total sale. So for those of you have have charged $1 (yeah, admit it, some of you have done that), it cost the store upwards of 28 cents in transaction fees. They're willing to do it though because the guy behind you is buying $10 worth of product on plastic that he might not have purchased otherwise.
The point about the credit card fees (called the "interchange fee" in the industry) is a good one and might also be a reason why toll road operators often don't accept cards. Think about it from the point of view of paying your income tax or your personal property tax with a credit card. The government isn't about to hand over a portion of your tax payment to American Express. So the site that processes the payment tacks on a transaction fee (sort of like buying tickets from Ticketmaster) to cover the interchange fee. Whether it's worth it to you to pay that processing fee would likely depend on what sort of incentive you got for paying by credit card (for example, American Express used to have a double-points promo every April and depending on the amount of your tax payment, what you could do with the points could make it worthwhile). Or the fee might be small enough that you don't car–I think the fee was less than $5 for my car tax payment this past October and I just didn't want to deal with the hassle of sending a check since I had several other bill payments due at the same time and all carefully timed based on when money was coming in and out.
The Dulles Greenway in Virginia would be an exception to this principle because the toll road is operated by a private entity.
Electronic toll collection obviously bills to a credit card and so the toll agency has to pay the interchange fee, but I have to assume the agencies calculated out how the interchange fee balances out against the costs saved by implementing electronic tolling.
As a general matter, I think people use plastic a lot more than they did 25 and 30 years ago. A lot has changed. Gas stations almost always charged more for credit back then and many of them didn't take standard credit cards–you had to use their own card. Department store credit cards weren't store-branded VISA or MasterCard, they were just that store's card and most of the time you couldn't use them elsewhere, although here in the DC area there was a card called the "Washington Shopping Plate" that was accepted at a bunch of local stores (the last one to accept it, Hecht's, was taken over by Macy's around 2005). As I mentioned before, you didn't have the "pay-at-the-pump" type machines or the little units where you swipe your card yourself at the grocery store or McDonald's, and the current setup where a signature is not needed for purchases below some particular amount was unknown. I NEVER saw people charging $10 purchases when I was growing up.
Interesting thought occurred to me as I type this–once upon a time people said you should never use a credit card at the grocery store. I understand the concern in principle about people running up unsustainable debt due to interest rates. But the part that's interesting is that a couple of weeks ago I had one of our cars at the mechanic for a window repair and when I went to pay for it (using American Express) I asked the guy to give me one Powerball ticket as well. He told me I had to pay for the lottery ticket separately: Virginia law prohibits using a credit card to pay for a lottery ticket. I could have used debit had I been so inclined, but I do not use debit unless I have no choice (which is very, very rare).
As a general rule, credit cards cannot be used for gambling. I don't know of any casino where you can stick a credit card in a machine (getting a cash advance is certainly permitted though on a credit card at a casino), and likewise I don't know of any states offhand that'll allow you to buy lottery tickets with credit as well.
Online gambling sites are just a wee-bit different though!
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 27, 2012, 09:29:30 AM
Quote from: realjd on November 27, 2012, 09:23:52 AM
Well it's only recently (past 5 or 10 years) that fast food decided to accept credit/debit cards at all! Fast food was a whole lot less convenient back in the dark ages when they were cash only.
I'm willing to bet it's longer than that, because I can't ever in my life recall going to a fast food restaurant and having it not accept credit cards.
I remember only being able to use cash, and I'm only 31 years old. The most recent in my memory is probably from 2007 or so.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 27, 2012, 10:52:29 AM
As a general rule, credit cards cannot be used for gambling. I don't know of any casino where you can stick a credit card in a machine (getting a cash advance is certainly permitted though on a credit card at a casino), and likewise I don't know of any states offhand that'll allow you to buy lottery tickets with credit as well.
Online gambling sites are just a wee-bit different though!
I've almost never visited any casinos so I'll take your word for it. The only "real" ones I've visited (as opposed to on cruise ships or the ferry between Maine and Nova Scotia) were in New Orleans and on a day trip to Atlantic City and in both cases I left all my credit/debit cards in secure locations and took only the cash I was willing to lose (although I left Atlantic City with more than I had when I arrived!).
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 27, 2012, 09:29:30 AM
Quote from: realjd on November 27, 2012, 09:23:52 AM
Well it's only recently (past 5 or 10 years) that fast food decided to accept credit/debit cards at all! Fast food was a whole lot less convenient back in the dark ages when they were cash only.
I'm willing to bet it's longer than that, because I can't ever in my life recall going to a fast food restaurant and having it not accept credit cards.
A quick googling sows that McDonalds started accepting plastic in 2004. I was in college at the time and it was remember it being a big deal for us to be able to go to the McD's across from the EE building without having to hit up an ATM. I think that corresponded with the change in rules that allowed small purchases to forgo signatures.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 27, 2012, 11:43:19 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 27, 2012, 10:52:29 AM
As a general rule, credit cards cannot be used for gambling. I don't know of any casino where you can stick a credit card in a machine (getting a cash advance is certainly permitted though on a credit card at a casino), and likewise I don't know of any states offhand that'll allow you to buy lottery tickets with credit as well.
Online gambling sites are just a wee-bit different though!
I've almost never visited any casinos so I'll take your word for it. The only "real" ones I've visited (as opposed to on cruise ships or the ferry between Maine and Nova Scotia) were in New Orleans and on a day trip to Atlantic City and in both cases I left all my credit/debit cards in secure locations and took only the cash I was willing to lose (although I left Atlantic City with more than I had when I arrived!).
Last casino I visited was about 10 years ago at a gambling joint once owned in part by Frank Sinatra, until Nevada gambling regulators forced him to sell because he allegedly associated with members of organized crime.
The Calneva (http://www.calnevaresort.com/) resort has
great views of Lake Tahoe, and as the name implies, straddles the California/Nevada border south of Ca./Nev. 28 in North Lake Tahoe (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=calneva+resort&hl=en&ll=39.225372,-120.003512&spn=0.009292,0.01929&safe=off&fb=1&gl=us&hq=calneva+resort&cid=0,0,4164003876936723660&t=h&z=16).
I think I blew $20 or $30 feeding the slot machines there (to their
great credit, at the time, this place had the "genuine" old-fashioned electromechanical one-armed bandits that took quarters and dispensed winnings in those genuine coins, not the noisy and obnoxious electronic slots apparently usually found in most places (I make that statement based on TV reports I've seen, as I have never set foot in a casino in Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey or Pennsylvania)).
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 27, 2012, 09:29:30 AM
Quote from: realjd on November 27, 2012, 09:23:52 AM
Well it's only recently (past 5 or 10 years) that fast food decided to accept credit/debit cards at all! Fast food was a whole lot less convenient back in the dark ages when they were cash only.
I'm willing to bet it's longer than that, because I can't ever in my life recall going to a fast food restaurant and having it not accept credit cards.
At the Wendy's I worked at between 2001-2003, we did NOT accept credit cards. I know that location does now, but it has been since the Summer of 2003.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 27, 2012, 09:29:30 AM
Quote from: realjd on November 27, 2012, 09:23:52 AM
Well it's only recently (past 5 or 10 years) that fast food decided to accept credit/debit cards at all! Fast food was a whole lot less convenient back in the dark ages when they were cash only.
I'm willing to bet it's longer than that, because I can't ever in my life recall going to a fast food restaurant and having it not accept credit cards.
I remember discovering that Burger King accepted credit cards when I started college in 2005 and it was a new thing (advertised as "pay it your way").
I also remember that prior to ~1995 the grocery store we shopped at did not take credit cards and my mother was always stopping at the bank to get cash before going to get groceries.
We also used to take a nice shortcut through some residential streets to get from the bank to the grocery store. Back then it was no-brainer convenient. Today the route involves several speed bumps.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 23, 2012, 08:44:59 PM
Working from memory here, but don't the mainline toll booths on PA 43 (Mon-Fayette) also take credit cards?
Only commercial cards issued by the Turnpike Commission.
Quote from: realjd on November 27, 2012, 03:14:11 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 27, 2012, 09:29:30 AM
Quote from: realjd on November 27, 2012, 09:23:52 AM
Well it's only recently (past 5 or 10 years) that fast food decided to accept credit/debit cards at all! Fast food was a whole lot less convenient back in the dark ages when they were cash only.
I'm willing to bet it's longer than that, because I can't ever in my life recall going to a fast food restaurant and having it not accept credit cards.
A quick googling sows that McDonalds started accepting plastic in 2004. I was in college at the time and it was remember it being a big deal for us to be able to go to the McD's across from the EE building without having to hit up an ATM. I think that corresponded with the change in rules that allowed small purchases to forgo signatures.
Looks like 2004 is when it went chainwide (one article says that about 3000 locations did already beforehand). I worked at one 2002-03, and I'm pretty sure we did, but I never worked counter so I could be mistaken.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 27, 2012, 10:52:29 AM
As a general rule, credit cards cannot be used for gambling. I don't know of any casino where you can stick a credit card in a machine (getting a cash advance is certainly permitted though on a credit card at a casino), and likewise I don't know of any states offhand that'll allow you to buy lottery tickets with credit as well.
Online gambling sites are just a wee-bit different though!
This has less to do with legal issues and more to do with the logistics of having potentially thousands of credit card terminals at each machine (my casino has 2600 machines–that's a lot of credit card terminals). Allowing slot machines to access a network outside the building is also a huge gaming control issue (you don't want someone hacking into the machine). Also, if something goes wrong ("it charged my card but the money never showed up on my machine!" "that's because you tried to charge money to a machine that was out of order, idiot") then you have to get an outside vendor involved in resolving the problem, which might take time (something tells me you're not gonna be able to get ahold of someone at Visa at 3am on a Saturday night) and risks becoming a customer service and/or gaming control issue.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 27, 2012, 03:27:45 PM
I think I blew $20 or $30 feeding the slot machines there (to their great credit, at the time, this place had the "genuine" old-fashioned electromechanical one-armed bandits that took quarters and dispensed winnings in those genuine coins, not the noisy and obnoxious electronic slots apparently usually found in most places (I make that statement based on TV reports I've seen, as I have never set foot in a casino in Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey or Pennsylvania)).
Coin-in/coin out machines are rightfully dead. It is much simpler for everyone involved to just have the machine keep track of a credit balance and print a cashable voucher when the gaming session is done. Printer jams are way easier to clear than coin jams, and you don't have to carry a bucket of quarters around from machine to machine. The casino doesn't have to keep a hard count room anymore, just soft count. Nobody has to be hand paid because the hopper ran out of coins.
Not all machines these days are loud and noisy. You can still play the lower-key mechanical reel slots (although nothing is really electromechanical anymore; the reels are just a USB device these days). Those tend to lose people's interest after a while though. You can come up with a lot more interesting game play mechanics if you're not limited to spinning reels around (you can instead have the player pick things on a screen, have the reel symbols change on each spin, etc.)
^^^
One of the casino boats near here has the fancy electronic machines, but they're all coin. It's the only place I've seen fancy, electronic slot machines that dump quarters when you push the cash-out button.
Quote from: realjd on November 28, 2012, 08:11:21 AM
^^^
One of the casino boats near here has the fancy electronic machines, but they're all coin. It's the only place I've seen fancy, electronic slot machines that dump quarters when you push the cash-out button.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mrdevious.com%2Fforum%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fbarf.gif&hash=aee78154b09e1050a5c0292911a2c62ba9512bda)
Whereas those older reel slot machines were generally in denominations of 25 cents, 50 cents and $1, It's also interesting to note that almost any new slot machine comes out in a denomination of 1 cent!
The move to the ticket voucher system instead of coins has helped move this along. But for those that aren't familiar with gambling...you're not going to play 1 cent on many of these machines. Quite a number of them have minimum credit requirements such as 30 cents...which may be something like 30 lines at 1 cent each. (Some will allow you to play 1 cent as well...it all depends on the machine)
The maximums on each machine are much higher as well. On an older reel machine, the common max on a 25c machine was 3 quarters, or 75c. On the penny machines, using the 30 line machine mentioned above, the max credit could be 9 cents per line, or $2.70 a spin!
The payouts can vary also. Much like EZ Pass allows charges of odd amounts based on discounts and all (say, $4.82 for a toll that would cost a cash toll payer $6.00), these slot machines will allow you to win odd combinations as well.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 28, 2012, 09:05:53 AMMuch like EZ Pass allows charges of odd amounts based on discounts and all (say, $4.82 for a toll that would cost a cash toll payer $6.00)
I've noticed that. Last time I took the NYS Thruway from the Taconic State Parkway to the MassPike I got an E-ZPass discount of $0.02 ($0.43 instead of $0.45). Although I'm fairly used to odd toll amounts from ticket systems like the NJTP (I think they kept their rates at no more specific than a nickel though).