Next Week, the PA Turnpike is opening another all-electronic (EZ Pass only) interchange with Rt. 29 (new Exit 320). This is one of a few that the PA Turnpike has created over the past several years.
However, one annoying feature (at least to me) with these interchanges is that they keep putting barriers between the lanes. There's no future for manned booths, plus the islands are too narrow for a booth anyway. The sole purpose appears to be to install the gantry between the two lanes. Like any other 2 lane ramp, or any express EZ Pass plaza, the lanes could easily be kept together with a single gantry over the lanes. From a safety point alone, the barrier is needlessly there.
http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/r29ramp/project-overview.aspx
I could easily see myself using that interchange from time-to-time instead of Valley Forge.
Now if the PTC can only build one at where US 202 crosses over I-476 (the Northeast Extension).
I see a couple of advantages to the barriers. First, the presense of the physical divider will tend to slow traffic down, which IMO is a good thing for locations like this one. Remember, these are exit and entrance ramps, and not the Turnpike mainline.
Second, the barrier allows the use of the "butterfly' uprights for the lane lights and related equipment, as opposed to typical cantilever or full span support gantries. This design, especially the foundation, is easier and less costly to construct than more "traditional' supports are. As the barriers have impact attenuators, they are considered "protected" locations, so the installations conform to current MUTCD guidance for support installation.
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 06, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
Now if the PTC can only build one at where US 202 crosses over I-476 (the Northeast Extension).
How about one in Bedford County, at the (non)connection to I-70 East?
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 06, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 06, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
Now if the PTC can only build one at where US 202 crosses over I-476 (the Northeast Extension).
How about one in Bedford County, at the (non)connection to I-70 East?
Breezewood !!
Quote from: roadman on December 06, 2012, 03:57:21 PM
I see a couple of advantages to the barriers. First, the presense of the physical divider will tend to slow traffic down, which IMO is a good thing for locations like this one. Remember, these are exit and entrance ramps, and not the Turnpike mainline.
Right, but then why aren't barriers built on all ramps? There are tens of thousands of miles of highway with thousands of ramps, almost all of which don't have barriers between lanes. So why here?
Quote
Second, the barrier allows the use of the "butterfly' uprights for the lane lights and related equipment, as opposed to typical cantilever or full span support gantries. This design, especially the foundation, is easier and less costly to construct than more "traditional' supports are. As the barriers have impact attenuators, they are considered "protected" locations, so the installations conform to current MUTCD guidance for support installation.
I don't necessarily agree with this either. Maybe the support itself is cheaper, but all that other stuff - the curbing, the attenuators, etc - adds a lot more to the cost. The overhead gantry typically used for BGSs or used on all-electronic toll roads would work just as well here as well.
In fact, the signage itself is almost as useless. All-electronic roads don't have separated lanes with signs detailing when a lane is open or closed. Why here?
There are a cople of recent photos in the PTC's website that show the new BGS' past the toll gantries for the two I-76 directions. Breaking w/usual PTC tradition, Exit number ranges are not shown on the BGS'.
Included in the eastbound BGS messages are TO 276 references but no I-476/Northeast Extension references that are shown at the Downington (PA 100) & Valley Forge (I-76 East) interchanges. The numeral font in the I-276 shield are of the narrow series B rather than the series C font. The font used for the I-76 shield numerals are the usual series D.
Direction cardinals are in Clearview (a design no-no) in addtion to the control cities (authorized use of Clearview). Control cites use the usual/expected Harrisburg & Philadelphia.
I'd be curious to know how the exit BGS' look. Time will tell.
I think the reason for the barriers is so the PTC doesn't have to spend money on tag readers that can deal with lane changes.
Quote from: deanej on December 07, 2012, 11:11:37 AM
I think the reason for the barriers is so the PTC doesn't have to spend money on tag readers that can deal with lane changes.
But if they want to transition to all-electronic toll collection with gantries between interchanges, they had better figure that out.
Md. 200 has gantries that read the transponder regardless of what lane a driver is in (including the shoulders).
Given the way this particular interchange is designed (trumpet w/a connector/feeder road); had this been 15 to 20 years ago, it would've been a regular toll plaza constructed there.
Quote from: Beltway on December 06, 2012, 05:51:57 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 06, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 06, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
Now if the PTC can only build one at where US 202 crosses over I-476 (the Northeast Extension).
How about one in Bedford County, at the (non)connection to I-70 East?
Breezewood !!
Umm, yes. I consider that place name to be an obscenity, and try not to mention it if I can.
Quote from: Beltway on December 06, 2012, 05:51:57 PM
Breezewood !!
Whats sad is that one can be fixed without touching the existing toll plaza by adding just two ramps.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 07, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: deanej on December 07, 2012, 11:11:37 AM
I think the reason for the barriers is so the PTC doesn't have to spend money on tag readers that can deal with lane changes.
But if they want to transition to all-electronic toll collection with gantries between interchanges, they had better figure that our.
Md. 200 has gantries that read the transponder regardless of what lane a driver is in (including the shoulders).
According to personal observation, E-470 in Denver does not charge you if you change lanes under the gantry. A single (note: not double) white line exists beneath the gantry, and for about 500' or so afterward to discourage people from changing lanes there.
It seems like the problem could be easily fixed by installing readers between the lanes, and on the shoulder.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 07, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: deanej on December 07, 2012, 11:11:37 AM
I think the reason for the barriers is so the PTC doesn't have to spend money on tag readers that can deal with lane changes.
But if they want to transition to all-electronic toll collection with gantries between interchanges, they had better figure that out.
Md. 200 has gantries that read the transponder regardless of what lane a driver is in (including the shoulders).
What makes you think that they want to switch to a barrier system if/when they go all-electronic? Maybe they plan to retain the ticket system with toll gantries at interchanges. It does make toll collection a lot simpler, especially since the interchanges are already set up for it.
Quote from: deanej on December 08, 2012, 12:08:30 PM
What makes you think that they want to switch to a barrier system if/when they go all-electronic? Maybe they plan to retain the ticket system with toll gantries at interchanges. It does make toll collection a lot simpler, especially since the interchanges are already set up for it.
Actually, one of the articles I read (can't remember exactly from where at the moment) indicated they were studying a plan that there would only be toll "readers" along the mainline, and not at exits... so it would somewhat resemble a "barrier system"... but they'd be placed between each exit (it didn't mention anything about the current "free" stretch between Cranberry (I-79) & New Castle (Toll I-376) retaining that status or not), so the tolls should still represent a "per mile" fare the way the ticket system does now.
It's still more complicated to collect though. You either have to wait a long time and group several tolls into one or have each vehicle rack up an entire statement's worth of barrier tolls in one trip.
Quote from: deanej on December 09, 2012, 12:41:49 PM
It's still more complicated to collect though. You either have to wait a long time and group several tolls into one or have each vehicle rack up an entire statement's worth of barrier tolls in one trip.
Maryland's Route 200 (ICC) works that way - if you drive several segments, the tolls are computed as if it was a "closed" ticket-type toll road on my E-ZPass statement.
Yeah, but as noted in another thread, the system has a huge lag in order to group all the barriers into a single trip.
Quote from: deanej on December 09, 2012, 01:20:21 PM
Yeah, but as noted in another thread, the system has a huge lag in order to group all the barriers into a single trip.
Usually a day.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 06, 2012, 01:46:57 PM
Next Week, the PA Turnpike is opening another all-electronic (EZ Pass only) interchange with Rt. 29 (new Exit 320). This is one of a few that the PA Turnpike has created over the past several years.
TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike opening third new all-electronic interchange - IC320 SR29 Malvern (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6312)
QuotePennsylvania Governor Tom Corbett will open the state Turnpike's third and most ambitious all-electronic interchange Tuesday (Dec 11) at Mile Post 320 (MP320) in the Great Valley, Chester County PA on the northwest outskirts of the Philadelphia area. The new interchange known as SR29 E-ZPass Only is 21 miles, 34km as the crow flies from downtown Philadelphia and provides access to a major corporate center, medical services, a campus of Penn State University as well as scattered residential development that have grown up around once rural villages in the Malvern area - East Whiteland Township.
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/video/8056976-corbett-opens-turnpike-interchange-outside-philly/
Here's the interchange story from KYW-TV (CBS) channel 3 of Philadelphia. Gotta get used to the BPS (big PURPLE sign).
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on December 11, 2012, 07:39:14 PM
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/video/8056976-corbett-opens-turnpike-interchange-outside-philly/
Here's the interchange story from KYW-TV (CBS) channel 3 of Philadelphia. Gotta get used to the BPS (big PURPLE sign).
Those purple signs are certainly interesting to say the least. I believe there are a few at the new exit 352 (PA 132/Street Road) interchange in Bensalem as well.
I may head over to the new PA 29 interchange this weekend and get some photos.
That sign bips.
On my just-concluded trip to PA for Steve's US 202 meet, I did something I don't usually do -- I relied on my GPS for routing to my motel. It was located on PA 132 (Street Road) and the GPS directed me to use the E-ZPass only exit at 352. My GPS didn't know whether I had an E-ZPass or not. It should have routed me off the Turnpike at 351 and then had me take US 1 to PA 132. I can see this causing problems for someone who is more overly reliant on the GPS than I usually and doesn't have an E-ZPass. Thankfully I do.
And there are purple signs on PA 132 approaching the ramp.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 11, 2012, 09:12:15 PM
On my just-concluded trip to PA for Steve's US 202 meet, I did something I don't usually do -- I relied on my GPS for routing to my motel. It was located on PA 132 (Street Road) and the GPS directed me to use the E-ZPass only exit at 352. My GPS didn't know whether I had an E-ZPass or not. It should have routed me off the Turnpike at 351 and then had me take US 1 to PA 132. I can see this causing problems for someone who is more overly reliant on the GPS than I usually and doesn't have an E-ZPass. Thankfully I do.
And there are purple signs on PA 132 approaching the ramp.
It was enough of a problem that the PTC sent out a warning via the media that some GPS devices might lead motorists to E-ZPass slip ramps.
Some of my co-workers were at the dedication ceremony. One of the photos on my company's Facebook page shows a photo of one BGS gantry w/signs featuring NO Clearview font for the control cities. This BGS gantry preceeds the earlier one I mentioned/commented on. Never mind, a close-up (from the CBS-3 video) of that BGS does indeed show Clearview font for the control cities.
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on December 11, 2012, 07:39:14 PM
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/video/8056976-corbett-opens-turnpike-interchange-outside-philly/
Here's the interchange story from KYW-TV (CBS) channel 3 of Philadelphia. Gotta get used to the BPS (big PURPLE sign).
Note how the BPS sign is non-compliant. Only the EZ-Pass banner should be purple, the rest should be green.
Quote from: roadman on December 14, 2012, 11:30:58 AM
Note how the BPS sign is non-compliant. Only the EZ-Pass banner should be purple, the rest should be green.
This is SOP for the PTC's EZ-Pass only interchanges. While conformity would be nice, I do think that the BPS makes it clear as day that this exit is different, and it might get more people to pay attention to the fact that they shouldn't exit if they don't have EZ-Pass. I do think that once they go all electronic, that they can probably do away with the BPS, since then every exit is (or should be) electronic.
Quote from: Compulov on December 14, 2012, 02:25:59 PM
Quote from: roadman on December 14, 2012, 11:30:58 AM
Note how the BPS sign is non-compliant. Only the EZ-Pass banner should be purple, the rest should be green.
This is SOP for the PTC's EZ-Pass only interchanges. While conformity would be nice, I do think that the BPS makes it clear as day that this exit is different, and it might get more people to pay attention to the fact that they shouldn't exit if they don't have EZ-Pass. I do think that once they go all electronic, that they can probably do away with the BPS, since then every exit is (or should be) electronic.
Point taken. However, I would argue that having a purple "EZ-Pass ONLY" banner on a green sign would be more effective than an all-purple one, given the contrast between the purple and green backgrounds. And, IMO, if a person is so inattentive that they don't heed the EZ-Pass Only banner, I seriously doubt an all purple sign is going to deter them from entering. Plus, defense lawyers love non-compliant traffic controls - even if the presnce of the device had nothing to do with a crash. And the last thing society needs is to give lawyers even more ways for their clients to evade responsibility for their actions.
Quote from: roadman on December 14, 2012, 02:58:04 PM
Quote from: Compulov on December 14, 2012, 02:25:59 PM
Quote from: roadman on December 14, 2012, 11:30:58 AM
Note how the BPS sign is non-compliant. Only the EZ-Pass banner should be purple, the rest should be green.
This is SOP for the PTC's EZ-Pass only interchanges. While conformity would be nice, I do think that the BPS makes it clear as day that this exit is different, and it might get more people to pay attention to the fact that they shouldn't exit if they don't have EZ-Pass. I do think that once they go all electronic, that they can probably do away with the BPS, since then every exit is (or should be) electronic.
Point taken. However, I would argue that having a purple "EZ-Pass ONLY" banner on a green sign would be more effective than an all-purple one, given the contrast between the purple and green backgrounds. And, IMO, if a person is so inattentive that they don't heed the EZ-Pass Only banner, I seriously doubt an all purple sign is going to deter them from entering. Plus, defense lawyers love non-compliant traffic controls - even if the presnce of the device had nothing to do with a crash. And the last thing society needs is to give lawyers even more ways for their clients to evade responsibility for their actions.
One of my memories from working Int. 1 on the NJ Turnpike: A motorist pulls into the EZ Pass Only Lane. Yells over to me in the next toll booth "What does EZ Pass Only mean"? Some of them actually see the sign...and can't comprehend what 'Only' could mean.
Same person probably enters the "10 items or less only" line at the supermarket with 37 items, then complains at how tiny the shelf is to put their products on for the cashier.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 14, 2012, 03:27:30 PMOne of my memories from working Int. 1 on the NJ Turnpike: A motorist pulls into the EZ Pass Only Lane. Yells over to me in the next toll booth "What does EZ Pass Only mean"? Some of them actually see the sign...and can't comprehend what 'Only' could mean.
Same person probably enters the "10 items or less only" line at the supermarket with 37 items, then complains at how tiny the shelf is to put their products on for the cashier.
Sadly, there's still no cure for stupid.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 14, 2012, 03:27:30 PMOne of my memories from working Int. 1 on the NJ Turnpike: A motorist pulls into the EZ Pass Only Lane. Yells over to me in the next toll booth "What does EZ Pass Only mean"? Some of them actually see the sign...and can't comprehend what 'Only' could mean.
Same person probably enters the "10 items or less only" line at the supermarket with 37 items, then complains at how tiny the shelf is to put their products on for the cashier.
Over the years, on more than one ocassion in the local media, I've actually seen and heard "But people don't know what the "Left Turn Yield On (green ball)" sign means" as an argument to change permissive turns to dedicated left turn lanes at some local intersections.
Quote from: roadman on December 14, 2012, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 14, 2012, 03:27:30 PMOne of my memories from working Int. 1 on the NJ Turnpike: A motorist pulls into the EZ Pass Only Lane. Yells over to me in the next toll booth "What does EZ Pass Only mean"? Some of them actually see the sign...and can't comprehend what 'Only' could mean.
Same person probably enters the "10 items or less only" line at the supermarket with 37 items, then complains at how tiny the shelf is to put their products on for the cashier.
Over the years, on more than one ocassion in the local media, I've actually seen and heard "But people don't know what the "Left Turn Yield On (green ball)" sign means" as an argument to change permissive turns to dedicated left turn lanes at some local intersections.
More and more I think our society is trending towards the idea that people think they're entitled to have their hands held for every last thing. There was a letter in yesterday's Washington
Post complaining about the new all-electronic high-occupancy/toll lanes on I-495 because, quote, "Local drivers have lamented that they have no clue where to enter or exit the lanes. Because their Global Positioning System devices still fail to recognize the new configuration, how will they find where they need to get to?" I mean, give me a friggin' break!!!! People have also complained that the multitude of signs bearing the E-ZPass logo do not use the word "TOLL" anywhere (presumably because the MUTCD requires the logo rather than the word "TOLL"). I find it really hard to fathom that anyone living anywhere on the East Coast from Virginia north to the Canadian border is unfamiliar with what E-ZPass is.
But I've always felt that New Jersey's signs for the toll plazas are exceptionally clear in this respect. The only significant improvement might be if there were some sort of symbol that were universally understood to denote "CASH," so that then they could put that symbol with the international "PROHIBITED" sign (the red circle-and-slash symbol) to underscore what the E-ZPass Only lanes are.
I was at the Washington Capitals' practice facility one day back in 2010 to pick up some tickets from their office and I bumped into a couple of players as I was getting into my car. It was a nice day and I had driven my 1988 RX-7 with the top down and it was parked next to Ovechkin's Mercedes. When I came out they were looking at the car laughing at the juxtaposition of this somewhat beat-up old Mazda next to his matte black SL65 AMG Black Series. But they liked the rotary engine's exhaust note. We briefly talked about cars and one of the Russians complained about how there are so many signs in this country; he said that American drivers seem to have no clue what to do unless they have constant signs telling them exactly what they can and cannot do. I think he has a valid point. There's a woman in my neighborhood who parks her car so that it's kind of halfway around the corner where two streets meet. Why? Because there isn't a sign saying that she can't (never mind that Virginia, just like pretty much every other state, prohibits parking within a certain number of feet of an intersection regardless of whether there's a sign).
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2012, 05:48:19 PMMore and more I think our society is trending towards the idea that people think they're entitled to have their hands held for every last thing. There was a letter in yesterday's Washington Post complaining about the new all-electronic high-occupancy/toll lanes on I-495 because, quote, "Local drivers have lamented that they have no clue where to enter or exit the lanes.
What you describe is commonly referred to as "the dumbing down of America", and it's not a new trend. I first flagged that as a problem back in the 1980s when folks started griping about not being able to program their video recorders (hint - RTFM).
As for the Virginia I-495 HOT lanes, my principal gripe is with whomever designed the approach signing. While the "no clue" comment of that Post reader is not entirely accurate, the signing could be clearer. Combining the CMS panels giving the toll rates with the "ONLY (with arrows) " panels informing drivers that if you stay in the left lanes, you're committed to the HOT facility is, IMO, a classic case of poor sign design (and is also another case where a designer decided to ignore the MUTCD).
The toll rate information is so complex to read at speed- plus it's also illuminated - that I can see how easy it would be for some drivers to not realize they have to change lanes approaching the area until the actual lane "split". Add in the fact that the "Here's the entrance" sign is located in the middle of a curve, and just beyond the start of the separator pylons, and it's no wonder VDOT's been having problems with last minute lane changes.
Looks like I-476 should need its own Electronic interchange and its PA-903 Highway to Adventure and the link is http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/Route_903_Slip_Ramp/home.html (http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/Route_903_Slip_Ramp/home.html), and this will help the drivers from the Leigh Valley area and the Poconos to experience driving on to I-476 (Pa Turnpike Northeast extension) without paying tickets. A benfit of this project is to allow the PA turnpike drvers from Leigh, Northampton counties, Pa and Warren County, NJ to experiment electronic tolls just like turnpike drivers in Bucks, and Montgomery counties who use all electronic exits to access their workplace.
Quote from: roadman on December 14, 2012, 06:13:35 PM
The toll rate information is so complex to read at speed- plus it's also illuminated - that I can see how easy it would be for some drivers to not realize they have to change lanes approaching the area until the actual lane "split". Add in the fact that the "Here's the entrance" sign is located in the middle of a curve, and just beyond the start of the separator pylons, and it's no wonder VDOT's been having problems with last minute lane changes.
VDOT has revised the pavement markings on the Inner Loop approach to the HOV/Toll lanes to make it more clear to drivers what is going on, though there are some that still are not going to figure it out under any circumstances.
However, I think it was a mistake to have the separator pylons begin on a curve, especially when there a long straight stretch approaching the curved segment.