AARoads Forum

Regional Boards => Central States => Topic started by: Chris on April 26, 2009, 04:02:34 PM

Title: Kansas City
Post by: Chris on April 26, 2009, 04:02:34 PM
Kansas City is cited as the city with the highest amount of freeway capacity relative to it's population.

But I was wondering about the alignment of I-70 and I-670, shouldn't they be swapped? I-670 is basically just a shortcut for the I-70. While this is not really uncommon within the United States, it just looks weird in Kansas City. (I-70 in St. Louis has the same issue).
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Truvelo on April 26, 2009, 04:20:08 PM
I-70 is plagued with this problem. In Wheeling, WV thru traffic is directed via I-470 because I-70 has only one thru lane near the tunnel. Surely the route numbers should be switched so thru traffic stays on I-70.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Alps on April 26, 2009, 10:25:50 PM
Quote from: TruveloI-70 is plagued with this problem. In Wheeling, WV thru traffic is directed via I-470 because I-70 has only one thru lane near the tunnel. Surely the route numbers should be switched so thru traffic stays on I-70.
To keep this pretty much on-topic, I think I-670 belongs as I-70 but not I-470.  670 is a shorter route than 70 and serves the downtown just the same way, plus it avoids a multiplex with busy 35.  On the other hand, 470 is longer than 70.  The bypass route is often the through route but doesn't have to be the main route.  See I-295 around Providence or any number of other examples.  The problem I have is that I-70 needs to have two through lanes, but as long as it's an Interstate it may as well keep the designation going through Wheeling instead of around it.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Sykotyk on April 27, 2009, 12:20:22 AM
The problem with 470/70 in Ohio and West Virginia is the horrible bottleneck formed at the tunnel. Taking a major interstate to one lane in the middle of a town is not good (a similar complaint I have about I-70 in Columbus heading east when all four lanes are marked to go to four different roads).

There's talk of blowing up the mountain to carve a new I-70 straight through. Which I think is utterly ridiculous. If it is a must, close the tunnel. Create an I-970 and I-170 on both ends. And realign I-70 along the I-470 ROW.

Carving a giant V into the mountain is not a solution.

Sykotyk
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Revive 755 on April 27, 2009, 01:49:58 AM
Quote from: ChrisKansas City is cited as the city with the highest amount of freeway capacity relative to it's population.

I've wondered how many freeways were canceled around Kansas City.  I'm not sure if the dead outer loop was going to be a freeway or an expressway (the "Route 7 Loop" on the NHS map?  http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/nhs/maps/mo/kansascity_mo.pdf)  I've also wondered if the KS 5 freeway was once planned to connect to the 3rd Street interchange on I-70, and KS 12 was planned for a freeway between I-435 and I-35.

(I would consider US 71 between I-670 and I-435 mostly complete with final completion dormant until a major uprising after a fatality or two at its stoplights.)

Quote from: ChrisBut I was wondering about the alignment of I-70 and I-670, shouldn't they be swapped? I-670 is basically just a shortcut for the I-70. While this is not really uncommon within the United States, it just looks weird in Kansas City. (I-70 in St. Louis has the same issue).

Considering I-670 west of I-35 seems to have taken as long as I-670 at Columbus to get finished . . .

As for St. Louis, the main reason I've been told I-70 hasn't been shifted onto I-270 is the confusion this renumbering would cause, IIRC.  Yet I've wondered how the area handling I-270 taking over I-244; I've never heard anyone still call it I-244 - yet I have seen a few people think I-270 changes to I-255 at the JB Bridge instead of I-55, and heard I-170 referred to as MO 725 once.  But if they decide to relocate I-70 around St. Louis, I think they should do it when the new downtown river bridge opens and they have to renumber stuff anyway. 

I have to wonder if Illinois at one time tried to shift I-70 since I-70 continues east of I-55 using I-270's mileage.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Chris on April 27, 2009, 05:10:13 AM
I love this bridge:

12th street bridge, kansas City, MO
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3199%2F3050884785_a6aef6249f.jpg&hash=910d9ec6acd2951e0700e4c5c16323eeb2d18f59)

Lower level (closed to traffic apparantly)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3241%2F2872285069_da7d7651de.jpg&hash=1fc802c667e2af928cd182affda72209be27b4a8)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F100%2F308245490_b9ed70006c.jpg&hash=fd1ff607d269f2be74835aef48a605d1a6f6b74e)
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Chris on April 27, 2009, 05:30:53 AM
Exit numbering is also interesting on the downtown loop.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F96%2FKC_Alphabet.svg%2F700px-KC_Alphabet.svg.png&hash=e0d93e42a386723cba7a0798ff30f1d437136559)

I guess downtown Kansas City is one of the best served downtowns in the U.S. by freeways.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Bryant5493 on April 27, 2009, 09:35:24 PM
^^ That's the weirdest exit numbering scheme I've ever seen. I haven't seen an exit with a suffix above "D."


Be well,

Bryant
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Hellfighter on April 28, 2009, 11:09:30 AM
What was the lower level supposed to be?
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: njroadhorse on May 02, 2009, 11:48:03 AM
My guess is probably a surface street connector to filter local traffic off of the main lanes of the viaduct.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Chris on May 07, 2009, 11:49:03 AM
Quote from: Bryant5493 on April 27, 2009, 09:35:24 PM
^^ That's the weirdest exit numbering scheme I've ever seen. I haven't seen an exit with a suffix above "D."

Here's a picture:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3029%2F2346985000_2b74dcf7e9.jpg&hash=8e90aee2e607f482b2120e52237c0490c1cee6b7)
by http://www.flickr.com/photos/rock_chalk_jhawk_ku/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rock_chalk_jhawk_ku/)
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: mightyace on May 07, 2009, 03:21:06 PM
Quote from: Bryant5493 on April 27, 2009, 09:35:24 PM
^^ That's the weirdest exit numbering scheme I've ever seen. I haven't seen an exit with a suffix above "D."

IIRC Many years ago, I remember traveling I-43 just north of I-94 and seeing an exit 1U.

Now, this was before I-43 was extended to Beloit.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Chris on May 07, 2009, 03:24:10 PM
Exit 51 on the I-90/I-94 in Chicago goes up to 51I (i) because of the ridiculous amount of exits there.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: SSOWorld on May 08, 2009, 12:18:41 PM
Quote from: Chris on May 07, 2009, 03:24:10 PM
Exit 51 on the I-90/I-94 in Chicago goes up to 51I (i) because of the ridiculous amount of exits there.
I swear that's the worst set of interchanges I've ever seen.  (they've taken down one set, but still...  and the Circle Interchange is slow enough to be considered a roundabout (except you cant go around in circles ;-) )  The ramps are entry on left, exit on right.  If you're going to use the Kennedy to go from one street to the next - think again.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: florida on May 12, 2009, 10:04:52 PM
I love the suffixed exits up to Y. Is it 2Y? And they're button copy to boot!
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Revive 755 on October 27, 2009, 12:42:01 AM
Found an apparent proposal to extend a freeway from the NE corner of the I-435 loop beyond I-35 to US 69:
http://www.marc.org/2040/Plan/Project_Solicitation/projectdetails.aspx?PID=456 (http://www.marc.org/2040/Plan/Project_Solicitation/projectdetails.aspx?PID=456)

EDIT: Proposal for the I-435 to I-35 section:
http://www.marc.org/2040/Plan/Project_Solicitation/projectdetails.aspx?PID=149 (http://www.marc.org/2040/Plan/Project_Solicitation/projectdetails.aspx?PID=149)
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Revive 755 on February 20, 2010, 08:16:14 PM
Finally managed to get to the correct library that has the 1950's expressway plan for Kansas City.  Other than the major shift in alignment for I-70 and I-670 on the Kansas side, the system inside I-435 is almost identical to what was built - including most of the ramps on the I-35/70 section.  Only freeway cancellation appears to be a short spur from the I-70 curve near Indiana Avenue (the reason for the three level design?) to 9th Street near Van Brunt.  An expressway, shown with very few at grade intersections and many overpasses and interchanges, was also planned from Jackson Curve on I-70 southward to MO 350 near the Coal Mine Road intersection.  The interchanges with I-70 for both facilities was shown as being trumpets, but possibly with some left side ramps.

Google book entry for this plan is http://books.google.com/books?id=kFVtQwAACAAJ&dq=kansas+city+expressway+plan&lr=&cd=18 (http://books.google.com/books?id=kFVtQwAACAAJ&dq=kansas+city+expressway+plan&lr=&cd=18)
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: J N Winkler on February 21, 2010, 06:01:06 AM
I have a complete camera copy of this plan.  The synoptic expressways map is on page 40.  I would make the following observations:

*  What is now the I-35 Turkey Creek Expressway is shown as full freeway to the 63rd Street corridor (then US 50), and "expressway-other" (not freeway) south of there.  An alternate routing was suggested for part of it, which would have paralleled Southwest Blvd. on the south rather than the north.

*  US 40 (now I-70) is shown as "expressway-other" west of what is the current location of the Turner Diagonal, and east of Manchester Trafficway.

*  The South Midtown Freeway (now Bruce Watkins Drive) is shown with a direct connection to the SE corner of the downtown loop, but runs south just to the 47th Street corridor (then US 50).

*  A freeway routing, presumably an alternate to part of I-70, is shown running from the South Midtown Freeway east to what is now I-70 at the Jackson Curve.  If this had been built instead of present I-70, it is likely the Jackson Curve would not exist.  What is now the I-670/I-70 corridor (including the southern flank of the downtown loop) is identified as "Crosstown Freeway" east from the I-70/I-670 interchange in Kansas to the freeway spur into Independence.  Southeast of there and running east to the Jackson Curve, it is identified as the Southeast Freeway.  East of the Jackson Curve, it becomes the Missouri Freeway.  The proposed expressway tying into I-70 at the Jackson Curve is identified as the Southeast Trafficway.

*  The map shows long lengths (but not the totality) of what is now the I-435 corridor, but no I-435.

*  A road identified as "expressway-other" is shown as existing from I-35 near Penn Avenue south to 39th Street, and as proposed from 39th Street to an intersection with then US 50 just south of 47th Street.  I think the length between 39th Street and former US 50 was not actually constructed.  A follow-up map on page 41 identifies it as the Southwest Trafficway.

The plan specifies geometric design standards for the downtown freeway loop which are extremely relaxed compared to current standards--including summit curve radii down to 1000'.  This is part of the reason the freeway loop is so difficult to negotiate.  A standard cross-section with two reversible lanes in the center (very similar to Lake Shore Drive in Chicago) is also shown (page 83), but as far as I know was never actually used anywhere on the system that now exists.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Revive 755 on February 23, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg706.imageshack.us%2Fimg706%2F1067%2Fkc1o.jpg&hash=6c5e7ff674508d225e0054df504964a99d35a180)
Map excerpt to show the unbuilt routes and the alignment change west of the downtown loop from the plan.  The black dashes are freeways, the white dashes are alternatives, the dashes filled with diagonal lines are expressways.

There's also what appears to be an early version of the Riverfront Expressway shown running near the southern bank of the Missouri River.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: ShawnP on May 01, 2010, 02:47:58 PM
Interesting to see just how many of the roads did get built in the Kansas City area. FYI there are plans to cover over the south side of the downtown loop eventually. Right now the Interstate is kind of a moat dividing downtown and the crossroads district.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Bickendan on May 20, 2010, 03:12:36 AM
As put a roof over the freeway or outright eliminate it?
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: J N Winkler on May 20, 2010, 04:16:36 AM
I don't see it being eliminated, but yes, a deck lid could be tried, or there could be more air-rights developments like Bartle Hall.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: ShawnP on May 22, 2010, 01:53:48 PM
A lid is most likely as there are studies being conducted. Most are low level kinda quiet ones now.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Revive 755 on August 01, 2010, 01:02:17 AM
Found an EIS for the South Midtown Freeway today.  From a general KC area map it appears the brief spurs of I-70 at Jackson and Benton curves shown in the 1950 plan were dead by the 1970's.    Expressways for the US 50 - MO 350 and SW Trafficway corridors still appeared to be alive.  The map also showed what appeared to be some sort of facility curving off I-70 at the Benton Curve that appeared to head for the I-29-35/I-70 interchange - but I don't think this one reoccurred on any other maps in the EIS.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Alex on July 16, 2015, 11:09:53 AM
Was the interchange at the Jackson Curve on Interstate 70 meant to tie into the Crosstown Expressway leading east? Also what was planned to tie into I-70 at Myrtle Avenue (Exit 5B)?
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Henry on July 16, 2015, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: Chris on April 27, 2009, 05:30:53 AM
Exit numbering is also interesting on the downtown loop.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F96%2FKC_Alphabet.svg%2F700px-KC_Alphabet.svg.png&hash=e0d93e42a386723cba7a0798ff30f1d437136559)

I guess downtown Kansas City is one of the best served downtowns in the U.S. by freeways.
I agree. BTW, I think the reason that I, O and Z are not used as suffixes is because they would be confused with numbers (1, 0 and 2, respectively).
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: intelati49 on July 16, 2015, 05:36:03 PM
Quote from: Alex on July 16, 2015, 11:09:53 AM
Was the interchange at the Jackson Curve on Interstate 70 meant to tie into the Crosstown Expressway leading east? Also what was planned to tie into I-70 at Myrtle Avenue (Exit 5B)?

For both questions, the answer is that the South East trafficway was going to tie into I-70. That road was meant the tie into Swope parkway east of the Blue river.

There was an alternative route for I-70 or the "Southeast freeway" that lead from that same location to Paseo and US71 (South Midtown Freeway)

Source: 1956 Expressway plan
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Alex on July 17, 2015, 01:04:23 PM
Quote from: intelati49 on July 16, 2015, 05:36:03 PM
Quote from: Alex on July 16, 2015, 11:09:53 AM
Was the interchange at the Jackson Curve on Interstate 70 meant to tie into the Crosstown Expressway leading east? Also what was planned to tie into I-70 at Myrtle Avenue (Exit 5B)?

For both questions, the answer is that the South East trafficway was going to tie into I-70. That road was meant the tie into Swope parkway east of the Blue river.

There was an alternative route for I-70 or the "Southeast freeway" that lead from that same location to Paseo and US71 (South Midtown Freeway)

Source: 1956 Expressway plan

Thanks for that, I am writing up a blog post from our drive through Kansas City last month and was wondering about both turns of I-70 with the 45 MPH speed advisory signs. I posted a map scan from 1961 (http://www.interstate-guide.com/maps/kansas_city_1961.jpg) of Kansas City to the Interstate 29 Guide (http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-029.html) and saw both stubs acknowledged but never found them elsewhere.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: J N Winkler on July 17, 2015, 02:36:38 PM
The expressway plan called for relaxed standards anyway--ISTR a throwaway reference to minimum horizontal and vertical curve radii of 1000 ft.  For this reason, as well as the fact that Kansas City streets have a rather low unit lane width (10 ft, I think), I generally prefer to bypass KC on I-435 and I-470 unless I actually have a destination within town, or am looking at the infrastructure itself.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Revive 755 on July 17, 2015, 10:32:25 PM
From the 1978 Transportation Plan for the Kansas City area:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1375.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag457%2Frevive755%2F1978%2520KC%2520Plan_System%2520Evolution_zpsowusqo86.jpg&hash=45adf762d717bf2e40345e83d410a754df1160b4)
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Revive 755 on May 05, 2016, 10:36:56 PM
Dusting of this thread . . .

This blog has a couple interesting scans I don't recall seeing before, including a map that shows the unbuilt east-west facility between the Jackson Curve on I-70 and I-35 as MO Route 735:
Link (http://www.linecreekloudmouth.com/blog/kc-freeway-history/)
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: dvferyance on June 01, 2016, 10:28:16 AM
Quote from: mightyace on May 07, 2009, 03:21:06 PM
Quote from: Bryant5493 on April 27, 2009, 09:35:24 PM
^^ That's the weirdest exit numbering scheme I've ever seen. I haven't seen an exit with a suffix above "D."

IIRC Many years ago, I remember traveling I-43 just north of I-94 and seeing an exit 1U.

Now, this was before I-43 was extended to Beloit.
I remember that too my guess is they used higher letters to avoid confusion with the nearby I-794 exits. I-794 has an exit 1H and I-894 and an exit 1E. Not to mention I-90/94 in Chicago has an exit 51I.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: rte66man on June 01, 2016, 08:09:11 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 05, 2016, 10:36:56 PM
Dusting of this thread . . .

This blog has a couple interesting scans I don't recall seeing before, including a map that shows the unbuilt east-west facility between the Jackson Curve on I-70 and I-35 as MO Route 735:
Link (http://www.linecreekloudmouth.com/blog/kc-freeway-history/)

Wow, quite a find.  Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Kansas City
Post by: Alex on October 20, 2016, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 23, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
Map excerpt to show the unbuilt routes and the alignment change west of the downtown loop from the plan.  The black dashes are freeways, the white dashes are alternatives, the dashes filled with diagonal lines are expressways.

Could you repost this map? Was wondering more about the wide median at the north end of the Turkey Creek Expressway, where I-35 overtakes the Southwest Trafficway. Is this what Jonathan was referring to?

Quote from: J N Winkler on February 21, 2010, 06:01:06 AM
*  What is now the I-35 Turkey Creek Expressway is shown as full freeway to the 63rd Street corridor (then US 50), and "expressway-other" (not freeway) south of there.  An alternate routing was suggested for part of it, which would have paralleled Southwest Blvd. on the south rather than the north.