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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: roadman65 on January 10, 2013, 02:45:37 PM

Title: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: roadman65 on January 10, 2013, 02:45:37 PM
I was always wondering, which border control crossings between the US and Canada have anybody experienced good things or bad experiences either on our side or the Canadian side.

I once went through the Detroit- Windsor Tunnel heading back into the US and was hassled by our own customs.   This was back in 95 way before 9/11.  Because I was traveling alone, had not shaved in days, and was from Florida, the inspector did a check on my license before I  could continue. 

He made me pull over and park the car, and then go inside the facility to retrieve it.  When I went into the building, there was a desk and when I asked the inspector behind it what was up, he asked me "Well what did you do wrong?"  I told him, nothing and I wanted my drivers license back.  Two minuets later, I was handed it back and free to go, with no explanation.

One year later I went across the Bluewater Bridge at Port Huron.  The US Customs Officer let me through with only a few questions and I was alone and with my Florida tags and this time clean shaven.

Into Canada, I used the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls and was asked a series of questions and one was " You live in Florida, that means guns, do you have one on you?" That was in my 95 trip.  I was then let in to Canada after all of this.


In 1996 I entered Canada at the Peace Bridge and had no problems.  No prejudicial remarks about us Floridians owning guns at all.
However, I have found Georgia Police to be skeptical of Floridians to have guns on them when traveling, even in Charlton County next to Nassau County, FL.  I guess its cause I had a rented vehicle with Dade County tags (Florida uses county names on general plates) and if I had Duval, Nassau, Baker, or any border county I would be a fellow redneck and not be prejudiced against.

Which are your favorites and which are the ones that you hate?  Which crossings should we use and which ones to avoid?
A chance to talk about your experiences.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on January 10, 2013, 03:16:00 PM
My crossings-

I've used I-5/BC 99 probably the most in various situations (by myself, with friends, with family), and I've never had any hassle at that crossing. I've used WA-543/BC-15 heading back into the USA with friends, and no hassle there.

I've crossed WA-9/BC-11 by into the US by myself once in a Jeep Wrangler. The guy just opened my trunk and looked under the car real quick, but otherwise no hassle.

Didn't have any trouble with friends crossing into Canada at I-94/ON 403.

I've only had trouble twice. Once was on A-55/I-91 crossing into Vermont at 2 AM in 2007 with some friends. We were all 18 and had planned on getting drunk in Quebec on our way from Idaho to New Hampshire, but we didn't get to Quebec until too late (we started in Milwaukee and stopped in South Bend for a while) and decided to just keep pressing on to New Hampshire. We hadn't showered or shaven in a while, and we just looked kind of sketchy. They made us get out of the car and stand with them and we watched as they searched our trunk and coolers for beer, the whole time saying "If you just tell us where it is your life will be a lot easier." We were exhausted and pretty calm because of it, and when they opened up a cooler full of Wisconsin root beer they cracked a joke and sent us on our way.

The other time was in late 2008, crossing from Washington into BC on SR 539. I was with two friends and had drank a lot the night before so was pretty dehydrated so I was shaking like a motherfucker. I was driving and my shakiness when handing over the passports got us pulled over for secondary. They searched the car, brought us in, had us empty out our pockets. The guy asked me why I was shaking so much (at this point I was hungover and scared so I was really shaking) and my friend said "He's just a shaky guy." The officer responded with "Is he a shaky guy or a shady guy?" Again, they told us just to tell us where the drugs are and we'd be OK. Eventually they let us go.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 10, 2013, 03:38:27 PM
Grand Marais, MN was a bear last time.  they held me for an hour and a half, and we had some exchanges of this sort:

"why are you unable to sit still?"
"I haven't eaten in a while, and I also need to use the restroom."
[writes something down, ostensibly "hasn't eaten in a while; needs to use restroom"]
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 10, 2013, 03:58:44 PM
I haven't really had trouble crossing the Canadian border in any direction, aside from a couple of crossings at the Peace Arch in 1991 where I felt the wait was excessively long in both directions.  I have since religiously avoided the Peace Arch, once driving all the way from the Fraser Valley suburbs of Vancouver to Osoyoos to use the Osoyoos-Oroville border crossing (US 97), and then crossing back to the rainy side of the Cascades via SR 20.  Nowadays there are VMS signs, websites, and smartphone apps which give the wait times at various border crossings, so it is much easier to time your arrival at a given crossing on the US-Canadian border to minimize wait time.

I have never been selected for secondary inspection.

The Mexican border is, by comparison, much harder to deal with.  Infrastructural provision for limiting wait time is much less generous (you get websites but not VMS signs), and the requirement to return a temporary vehicle importation permit on final exit from Mexico additionally constrains the crossing points that can be used.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: 1995hoo on January 10, 2013, 04:08:09 PM
Never had any problems anywhere other than having to wait on line. Had to wait a really long time in Portland after we exited the Cat Ferry from Nova Scotia, simply because the facility was too small for the amount of traffic. The Customs inspector was either an idiot or trying to be funny when he looked at our list of stuff to declare because he wanted to know what "golf rainwear" is. I responded honestly: "You know, rain pants and rain jackets to wear when we're playing golf and it starts raining, like it did last week on Cape Breton Island. We each bought a pair of rain pants and a rain jacket with the golf course's logo." Seemed to satisfy him.

Crossing back to the USA at the Thousand Islands Bridge in January 2006 the first thing out of the inspector's mouth was "What does your license plate mean?" When I told him it was a reference to flying at Mach 2 he became more interested in that and we talked about airplanes for a few minutes before he sent us on our way.

Sometimes I think they just come up with random questions to see how you answer so they can decide whether you're being evasive.

Funny thing, the only Canadian stamp in my passport is from the ferry terminal in Yarmouth. None of the others have ever stamped it, even at the cruise ship terminal in Vancouver. All my US stamps are from airports (never gotten a stamp when driving), but the weird thing is that the border preclearance station at the airport in Vancouver did not stamp it. I wonder how they decide whether to give you a stamp.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 10, 2013, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 10, 2013, 04:08:09 PMSometimes I think they just come up with random questions to see how you answer so they can decide whether you're being evasive.

Yes, they do.  Since I am deaf, I always ask them to write down such questions because I want the audit trail (I don't want to get jammed up as a result of their asking me one question, my misunderstanding it, and then answering a completely different question).  Usually they don't bother.  The one time an immigration inspector did, he wanted to know how long I had been outside the United States.  I did a quick mental calculation and finally wrote down, "About ten months."  That was it.

In my decade-plus of attempting to lipread mumbly immigration officers, I have had the suspicion that they read out loud the name on the passport.  I wonder if they do this on the assumption that a person travelling under a false passport will not react the same way to the alias name that an ordinary person would react to his or her real name.  I wouldn't expect such a crude technique to work on people who are seriously focused on the task of travelling under false documentation, but a lot of law enforcement is about getting people to inculpate themselves through stupid mistakes.

QuoteAll my US stamps are from airports (never gotten a stamp when driving), but the weird thing is that the border preclearance station at the airport in Vancouver did not stamp it. I wonder how they decide whether to give you a stamp.

I think the policy is just at airports on US soil, and it is quite recent--it started sometime in the last ten years or so.  Previously, my passport was never consistently stamped on entry to the US.  I wonder if the policy has something to do with passport books being required for airport arrivals (I am not sure if you can use a passport card when arriving at an airport on US soil).  Alternatively, it could be the default position that all arrivals get stamped but land arrivals aren't stamped in order to avoid creating problems for cross-border commuters.  Passport stamping has the potential to be quite expensive for frequent international travellers because we no longer get additional passport pages free of charge.  In fact, the current charge for insertion of additional pages is close to the cost of a passport renewal.

There is a similar disparity in use of Customs Form 6059B.  You can be required to fill out the written Form 6059B only at the customs officer's discretion:  if he does not require a written declaration, then you can make it verbally.  Verbal declarations are the norm at land crossings and arrivals are rarely, if ever, asked to fill out the written form.  At airports it is precisely the opposite.  If you offer to make a verbal declaration, you will be handed Form 6059B and sent to the back of the queue.  The one time I tried to get away with a verbal declaration at an airport, I had to fill 6059B out in Italian ("Benvenuto negli Stati Uniti") because the immigration officer could not find an English-language copy at his desk.

I have never tried to cross the border by car on a vanity or specialty plate:  every time I have had a vanilla Kansas license plate.  At the moment I have a Kansas veterans' plate on my car because the last person to drive it regularly, who is still on the title, was entitled to it.  I am not, because I have never served in the military, but I cannot get a vanilla plate until we find time to wait at a severely understaffed tag office to get the title amended.

While I am happy to travel domestically with a veterans' plate on a temporary basis, I don't want to travel with it internationally.  It draws too much attention.  The Kansas veterans' plate design also has the eagle with shield, olive branch, and arrows on it, which encourages uninformed foreigners to confuse my car with an official military or US Government vehicle.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 10, 2013, 04:48:52 PM
after my fun experience at Grand Marais, I asked for a passport stamp and was told that policy was to not give one for lawful US residents (citizens or green card holders).

I did get a stamp going into Canada at Fort Frances by land, though, just for asking.  the Canadian authorities gave me a secondary inspection as well (identity verification and vehicle search) but their questions were reasonable and I was done in 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 10, 2013, 05:08:32 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2013, 02:45:37 PM
Two minuets later, I was handed it back and free to go

Boy, talk about a song and dance!

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 10, 2013, 04:35:58 PM
I have never tried to cross the border by car on a vanity or specialty plate:  every time I have had a vanilla Kansas license plate.  At the moment I have a Kansas veterans' plate on my car because the last person to drive it regularly, who is still on the title, was entitled to it.  I am not, because I have never served in the military, but I cannot get a vanilla plate until we find time to wait at a severely understaffed tag office to get the title amended.

While I am happy to travel domestically with a veterans' plate on a temporary basis, I don't want to travel with it internationally.  It draws too much attention.  The Kansas veterans' plate design also has the eagle with shield, olive branch, and arrows on it, which encourages uninformed foreigners to confuse my car with an official military or US Government vehicle.

I've driven in México with a specialty plate, one that is just as likely to stand out but is much less likely to draw unwanted attention of the violent kind:  breast cancer awareness.  I knew a man who was chased nearly across the entire state of Idaho a few decades ago, supposedly because of his National Guard license plates.

QuoteOP

Other than a fuzzy childhood memory or two, I've only driven across the Canadian border once.  This was in the summer of 2002 or 2003, I believe, and we crossed at the Ambassador Bridge in Detroit.  It was me, two coworkers, and the wife of one of them.  We crossed into Canada after dark; the border official on the bridge asked from out the darkness, 'Where ya headed?' – 'Rondeau Park.' – 'Go ahead!'  On the return trip, the American official on the bridge took our passports, asked how we knew each other and why we were travelling together, what we'd been doing, then let us through.  BTW, I remember it being difficult finding a place to exchange currency that late at night in Windsor.  We ended up using a debit card to buy snack food at the grocery store and just asking for cash back.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 10, 2013, 05:11:17 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 10, 2013, 04:48:52 PMafter my fun experience at Grand Marais, I asked for a passport stamp and was told that policy was to not give one for lawful US residents (citizens or green card holders).

That policy clearly doesn't apply to airport arrivals--the last few times I have entered the US by air I have been stamped (US passport, immigration officer never asks if I would like a stamp, I never ask if I can not be stamped).  Most of my stamps are from ORD but I have one from MSP too, so I don't think it is something that varies by port of entry.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 10, 2013, 05:15:39 PM
I've been stamped inbound at airports in Atlanta, Chicago, and Denver.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on January 10, 2013, 07:49:14 PM
By my count it's going to take about 25 trips to Canada with no clear explanation (I'm gonna clinch me some highways! be back in three days. Oh, well, I'm crossing here in Scobey because I need to clinch these highways.) over the next five years to clinch the Alberta, BC, and NWT highway systems, so I think I'm about to have some fun
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on January 10, 2013, 11:13:01 PM
Favourite: unsigned NY 22 / QC 219 (Mooers/Hemmingford).

US side usually asks the routine questions and lets me go.
Canadian side is usually quite friendly (rather than cold), and on one or two occasions they didn't even grab my passport from my hand. Could be related to the fact that it's the closest one from where I live.

Least favourite: I-87 / A-15 (Champlain/Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle).

I'll always wait there if I cross during the way. I've waited half an hour Canada-bound in February.
I have no reason not to avoid it now. It is surrounded by other smaller crossings, most of which are fairly quiet. (same for I-89 and I-91, too, by the way).
I've been selected for secondaries twice there in Canada, within a few weeks. No reason was given, and on both occasions I waited 20 minutes while parked before someone came. On both occasions, everything was left in a completely unorganized mess. On the second time, they damaged my friend's cooler.

I don't wait as much on I-91, but it does get quite the traffic on weekend mornings with people heading to Jay Peak and other Vermont ski resorts. There are VMSes on both A-10 and A-55 but I've never seen them display anything at all. On one particular occasion, on the first morning of the vacation season in Québec, the U.S. bound lines were going all the way to Boulevard Notre-Dame (Hwy 247) in Stanstead. I avoided it via Canusa Avenue. When I go to Jay, I usually cross on Hwy 243 in North Troy, but I've had mixed experiences there. I once had a very bitchy female agent that was aggressively trying to expose a weakness in my declaration by unsettling me and otherwise making me feel uncomfortable. She was borderline (pun unintended) treating me like an idiot. Going back in Canada on Hwy 139 / Richford / Sutton I sometimes get asked why I get through there.

I've had one secondary on I-91, I suspect because my friend's passport wasn't signed (they didn't tell him either, he was only informed of that coming back into Canada). It took about 45 minutes, which included waiting for them to process other people that were already there, asking questions to each of the four people in the car, searching the car without our presence and filling written declarations. I hope they learned that the question "Have you ever been fingerprinted?" is dangerously ambiguous for someone who isn't a native English speaker.

I've waited in both directions at many crossings in Ontario, but that's understandable as there aren't nearly as many since the border is in the water and the bridges have to clear the Seaway in many places, which makes them even more expensive to build and therefore sparse.

I think it is imprtant to say, though, that I cross the border dozens of times every year and in almost all of the cases, it's pretty damn down-to-earth and uneventful. It'll be even moreso once I get my Nexus card.

I've never flown, except for one domestic flight when I was 4.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Mdcastle on January 10, 2013, 11:20:39 PM
The hassle I got from the US side leaving the US at the peace gardens- car and person searched, made to sign a statement saying I wasn't exporting more than $10,000.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 11, 2013, 12:13:58 AM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 10, 2013, 11:13:01 PMI hope they learned that the question "Have you ever been fingerprinted?" is dangerously ambiguous for someone who isn't a native English speaker.

It is difficult even for native speakers, who may very well have been fingerprinted outside the context of booking after arrest.  It is a bit like being asked on a job application whether you have ever been convicted of a crime:  do you have to say Yes when the only crime in question is a minor traffic offense?

If I were asked the fingerprinting question at a border crossing--I have never been--I would just say, "I can't remember offhand if I have been or not.  Why do you need to know?"
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on January 11, 2013, 12:27:14 AM
Yeah, if somebody asked me that I would have said "yes" since I was fingerprinted when I worked for the Census and I'd have assumed they were just asking to see if my fingerprints were in a database or something, and maybe that could help expedite the crossing for some reason, not to see if I had been arrested.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 11, 2013, 11:17:26 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Automated_Fingerprint_Identification_System

In the US, IAFIS (sometimes just "AFIS" in thriller novels) includes fingerprints taken not just from arrest bookings but also various types of official proceedings where fingerprints are collected, such as background checks, applications for sensitive categories of employment, military service, etc.  One of the non-criminal routes through which prints can be added to the IAFIS is the US-VISIT program, which applies to nationals of visa-waiver countries who enter the US on an I-94W instead of an I-94.

If I were in Dr Frankenstein's position, my initial impulse would be to suspect that the fingerprinting question was designed to bring out whether he had participated in US-VISIT.  (I don't know if Canadian citizens are required to participate in this program to obtain entry to the US.)  But if that is actually what the immigration officer wants to know, he should ask the question directly, instead of using an open-ended question to fish for a damaging admission.  (Dr Frankenstein's entry-exit record should also be linked to his passport, and Canadian passports are machine-readable--which raises the question of why the immigration officer has to ask for information he should already have gotten when he scanned the MRZ on his passport.)

There is some risk of looking uncooperative and as if you have something to hide by pushing back against the fingerprinting question, but I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.  If the immigration officer has no articulable reason to believe you are doing anything illegal, then pushing back against questions designed to elicit self-incriminating information sends a signal that you are aware of your rights and will not give up anything for free.  That encourages the officer to move on to a more gullible arrival and improves the chances you will be let go, albeit after a delay.

One other thing to remember:  a law enforcement officer has unlimited discretion to lie to you to secure a damaging admission.  (Saying "It's OK, you can admit you have drugs, nothing bad will happen to you" is a prime example of this.)  On the other hand, it is a federal crime to lie back to a federal law enforcement officer.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: 1995hoo on January 11, 2013, 11:34:20 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 10, 2013, 04:35:58 PM
....

QuoteAll my US stamps are from airports (never gotten a stamp when driving), but the weird thing is that the border preclearance station at the airport in Vancouver did not stamp it. I wonder how they decide whether to give you a stamp.

I think the policy is just at airports on US soil, and it is quite recent--it started sometime in the last ten years or so.  Previously, my passport was never consistently stamped on entry to the US.  I wonder if the policy has something to do with passport books being required for airport arrivals (I am not sure if you can use a passport card when arriving at an airport on US soil).  Alternatively, it could be the default position that all arrivals get stamped but land arrivals aren't stamped in order to avoid creating problems for cross-border commuters.  Passport stamping has the potential to be quite expensive for frequent international travellers because we no longer get additional passport pages free of charge.  In fact, the current charge for insertion of additional pages is close to the cost of a passport renewal.

....

I have never tried to cross the border by car on a vanity or specialty plate:  every time I have had a vanilla Kansas license plate.  At the moment I have a Kansas veterans' plate on my car because the last person to drive it regularly, who is still on the title, was entitled to it.  I am not, because I have never served in the military, but I cannot get a vanilla plate until we find time to wait at a severely understaffed tag office to get the title amended.

While I am happy to travel domestically with a veterans' plate on a temporary basis, I don't want to travel with it internationally.  It draws too much attention.  The Kansas veterans' plate design also has the eagle with shield, olive branch, and arrows on it, which encourages uninformed foreigners to confuse my car with an official military or US Government vehicle.

The passport card is not valid for air travel, though if for some reason you needed a second form of ID it could presumably be used then. (I use mine regularly as a primary form of ID simply because the piece of my wallet that holds my driver's license obscures the fourth digit of my date of birth and the date of expiry. It's easier just to pull out the passport card. Some people, especially the lady at the polling place in November, seem to have a real beef if you use anything other than a driver's license as ID. The guy at the Apple Store, by contrast, was impressed by it–but then, he has a green card!) The State Department's info on the passport card specifies that it is valid for entry into the US from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Bermuda by land (obviously Mexico and Canada only) or sea and never by air.

Funny thing regarding stamping, I looked through mine again and I see a few air entries where I do NOT have stamps. Every time I've come back from Europe (once to JFK; other times to Dulles) I've gotten a stamp. Got a stamp in Philadelphia on the way back from Mexico. Did not get a stamp either time I connected in Charlotte on the way back from Mexico, and one of those was more recent than the Philadelphia connection. But I know some of the preclearance airports do stamp, even though I didn't get one at Vancouver–the facility at Dorval in Montreal does it, for example (or at least sometimes they do), because I know people who have those stamps.

Regarding personalized plates, all three of our cars have them, so we'll always be crossing with one (although the '88 RX-7 will never be driven that far so it's not an issue). I've never had any problem with it, mind you; the guy just wanted to know what it meant, and I've had other people ask me the same question so it didn't strike me as particularly odd.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 11, 2013, 11:37:44 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 10, 2013, 05:11:17 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 10, 2013, 04:48:52 PMafter my fun experience at Grand Marais, I asked for a passport stamp and was told that policy was to not give one for lawful US residents (citizens or green card holders).

That policy clearly doesn't apply to airport arrivals--the last few times I have entered the US by air I have been stamped (US passport, immigration officer never asks if I would like a stamp, I never ask if I can not be stamped).  Most of my stamps are from ORD but I have one from MSP too, so I don't think it is something that varies by port of entry.

correct. I did not speak clearly enough; the passport policy I mentioned was for land crossings only. 

no idea what ship entries are like.  or private aircraft.  on the latter, I'll have to ask some friends of mine, who fly to Mexico in one of their little Cessnas all the time.  from what I recall, they have to clear customs for both countries, on both legs of the flight.  they tend to do a Calexico-San Felipe leg (or the reverse) to take care of this.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 11, 2013, 11:39:47 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 11, 2013, 12:13:58 AM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 10, 2013, 11:13:01 PMI hope they learned that the question "Have you ever been fingerprinted?" is dangerously ambiguous for someone who isn't a native English speaker.

It is difficult even for native speakers, who may very well have been fingerprinted outside the context of booking after arrest.  It is a bit like being asked on a job application whether you have ever been convicted of a crime:  do you have to say Yes when the only crime in question is a minor traffic offense?

If I were asked the fingerprinting question at a border crossing--I have never been--I would just say, "I can't remember offhand if I have been or not.  Why do you need to know?"

for me the question is easy.  "sure have, you guys do it all the time"
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 11, 2013, 12:16:17 PM
All my crossings in 2012 were at either Ogdensburg or the Seaway Bridge, so I've noticed more variation between crossings at one port of entry rather than between them.  For some reason, it seemed to get easier to cross after I got my enhanced driver's license.  On my last trip, the US officer only wanted to know where I was coming from, the purpose of the trip, and if I was bringing anything back - nothing else; it took about 15-20 seconds to cross (not including the wait, because it took everyone else longer).

Quote from: Mdcastle on January 10, 2013, 11:20:39 PM
The hassle I got from the US side leaving the US at the peace gardens- car and person searched, made to sign a statement saying I wasn't exporting more than $10,000.

Since when does the US do exit inspections?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 11, 2013, 12:18:50 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 11, 2013, 12:16:17 PM
Since when does the US do exit inspections?

since whenever they want to.  I got one at Columbus, NM heading into Palomas, Chih and I am thinking they simply were bored.  When I crossed into Mexico, I looked back and saw - for the first time in my life - nobody in line to enter the US.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Brandon on January 11, 2013, 12:24:09 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 11, 2013, 11:37:44 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 10, 2013, 05:11:17 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 10, 2013, 04:48:52 PMafter my fun experience at Grand Marais, I asked for a passport stamp and was told that policy was to not give one for lawful US residents (citizens or green card holders).

That policy clearly doesn't apply to airport arrivals--the last few times I have entered the US by air I have been stamped (US passport, immigration officer never asks if I would like a stamp, I never ask if I can not be stamped).  Most of my stamps are from ORD but I have one from MSP too, so I don't think it is something that varies by port of entry.

correct. I did not speak clearly enough; the passport policy I mentioned was for land crossings only. 

no idea what ship entries are like.  or private aircraft.  on the latter, I'll have to ask some friends of mine, who fly to Mexico in one of their little Cessnas all the time.  from what I recall, they have to clear customs for both countries, on both legs of the flight.  they tend to do a Calexico-San Felipe leg (or the reverse) to take care of this.

After the two cruises I've taken thus far in the Caribbean, I did not get my passport stamped coming back through customs (Tampa and Houston).  They seem to be on the lookout for people bringing back too much alcohol without paying the duty and people bringing back drugs they shouldn't have.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Brandon on January 11, 2013, 12:25:53 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 11, 2013, 12:16:17 PM
All my crossings in 2012 were at either Ogdensburg or the Seaway Bridge, so I've noticed more variation between crossings at one port of entry rather than between them.  For some reason, it seemed to get easier to cross after I got my enhanced driver's license.  On my last trip, the US officer only wanted to know where I was coming from, the purpose of the trip, and if I was bringing anything back - nothing else; it took about 15-20 seconds to cross (not including the wait, because it took everyone else longer).

Quote from: Mdcastle on January 10, 2013, 11:20:39 PM
The hassle I got from the US side leaving the US at the peace gardens- car and person searched, made to sign a statement saying I wasn't exporting more than $10,000.

Since when does the US do exit inspections?

I've never seen one at the Soo, Niagara, Port Huron, or Detroit.  Of course, they don't seem to be set up very well for any sort of exit inspection at these crossings.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on January 11, 2013, 01:58:04 PM
There are two car ferries across the St. Clair River between Ontario and Michigan.  Generally, it never takes more than 20 minutes or so to cross the border, while the wait at the Bluewater Bridge in Sarnia could be over an hour.  I find customs at these locates to be quick and fair.

Like Dr. Frank, I have had a few opportunities where the Canadian border patrol hasn't taken my passport for verification on a return trip back to Canada.  I am always driving a car with Ontario plates, and speak like an Ontarian so I don't raise too much trouble.

I sometimes (often?) find the border patrol staff ask questions that are both abrasive and a little rude, but I have always figured that was just how they determined if the interviewee was lying, and have never been particularly bothered by it.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Alps on January 11, 2013, 05:12:49 PM
My least favorite is the amazingly overused I-87 crossing. US 11, old? NY 22, and others are so close by and empty most of the day. Honorable mention to the two Niagara Falls crossings at ON 405 and 420. QEW for me! I don't really have a favorite, nor do I rate them by my experiences there beyond wait (you can get a dickish stop at any one or breeze through equally plausibly), but:
* Fort Kent, for its beauty
* A couple of the St. Lawrence bridges from ON-NY, for their beauty
* US 3 NH-QC, because you can literally walk across the border without stopping at Customs. You park just before, walk by, tell them you're going hiking, and the trail is along the border.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 12, 2013, 02:31:59 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 11, 2013, 12:18:50 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 11, 2013, 12:16:17 PM
Since when does the US do exit inspections?

since whenever they want to.  I got one at Columbus, NM heading into Palomas, Chih and I am thinking they simply were bored.  When I crossed into Mexico, I looked back and saw - for the first time in my life - nobody in line to enter the US.

I've been inspected multiple times by the CBP upon exiting the US at the southern border, but I've never had to fill out any paperwork; I don't even think they've made me get out of the car.

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 10, 2013, 11:13:01 PM
mucho text

So, in general, have you had better experiences at major or minor crossings?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: english si on January 12, 2013, 04:25:31 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 11, 2013, 12:13:58 AM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 10, 2013, 11:13:01 PMI hope they learned that the question "Have you ever been fingerprinted?" is dangerously ambiguous for someone who isn't a native English speaker.

It is difficult even for native speakers, who may very well have been fingerprinted outside the context of booking after arrest.  It is a bit like being asked on a job application whether you have ever been convicted of a crime:  do you have to say Yes when the only crime in question is a minor traffic offense?
I would automatically say "yes" - when on an elementary (-equivalent) school trip to the police station I was fingerprinted, and again with the Cub Scouts - simply as it was a simple activity we could do (along with visiting the cells, showing off the blues and twos on a car and hearing from a copper what bobbies do for a living, what equipment they carry, etc). Pretty sure we did it a couple of other times at school, as part of a lesson. None of those were kept on file.

Nowhere does that question say to me 'have you ever been arrested?' and even then, arrests shouldn't be on the record or of any concern to border guards if you were released without charge or warning.

Oh, and at the US border fingerprinted my index finger last time I visited.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: oscar on January 12, 2013, 05:49:12 PM
I have crossed the border dozens of times, and have probably gotten more than my share of secondary searches (one in each direction on my latest trip, at I-81/ON 137 crossing into Ontario and QC 133/I-89 returning through Vermont -- this is starting to get irritating).  So I have a lot of aggravating experiences. 

The worst was at the ferry crossing from Cape Vincent NY to Wolfe Island ON, where Customs Canada seems to do a secondary on one vehicle on every crossing, and since the ferry holds only three to six cars, the odds are high you'll be selected for a search.  Only consolation is that they make sure your search is done before the next victim arrives on the following trip, which isn't that long since that round-trip across the St. Lawrence is pretty short.

My favorite crossings were multiple trips in both directions between Alaska and Canada.  Customs on both sides are used to tourists and Alaska residents flitting back and forth across that border, so no stupid questions or hassles.

Problem searches crossing into Canada --

I-95 into New Brunswick on my way to Newfoundland (friendly search ordered by a rookie agent, we talked about American football during the search), Peace Bridge into Ontario, Seaway Bridge into Ontario, light search while I was in line crossing into Manitoba at ND 1 (just a quick flip through my photo albums in the trunk, with some muttering about kiddie porn), the above-mentioned crossings into Ontario on I-81 (included scan of my laptop, thumb drive, and laptop) and at Wolfe Island.

Back into the U.S. --

MB 75/I-29 into North Dakota (vehicle taken apart basically, including my dirty laundry, and a search of my various electronic devices; no effort to reassemble my belongings after the search), the above-mentioned search at I-89 in Vermont (long waits due to short staffing, which didn't reduce the number of secondary searches).

Uneventful crossings in either direction --

between Stewart BC and Hyder AK (back then, no customs checkpoint on either side; now there's one on the Canada side), multiple other trips back and forth between Alaska and Canada mentioned above, Sidney BC ferry into U.S., I-5 in both directions, US 395 in both directions on different trips., US 89 into U.S., I-15 into U.S., US 52 into Saskatchewan, US 83 south of Melita MB (might've helped that I mentioned "Melita" was my mother's name), MN 61 into Canada, I-75 in both directions (but obnoxious questions from U.S. Customs while in line about how come I wasn't married), I-69 in both directions, I-190 in both directions, Rainbow Bridge and Peace Bridge from Ontario into U.S., I-81 in both directions except the one time mentioned above, ON 16 into U.S., I-87 in both directions, US 11 into New York (customs agent accepted my explanation that I was trying to clinch the north end of US 11), I-89/QC 133 into Quebec, A-55/I-91 into Vermont, US 201 into Quebec, one of the crossings into the U.S. to ME 11, Campobello Island off the east coast of Maine in both directions, and at Calais ME into Canada.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: deathtopumpkins on January 12, 2013, 11:11:51 PM
Quote from: oscar on January 12, 2013, 05:49:12 PM(included scan of my laptop, thumb drive, and laptop)

Wait, they can look through your laptop if you bring it with you crossing the border? That's legal!?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Brandon on January 12, 2013, 11:23:10 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on January 12, 2013, 11:11:51 PM
Quote from: oscar on January 12, 2013, 05:49:12 PM(included scan of my laptop, thumb drive, and laptop)

Wait, they can look through your laptop if you bring it with you crossing the border? That's legal!?

Yes.  There's a lot of violating the 4th Amendment at the border.  Personally, I'm all for dropping border controls along the US-Canadian Border.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on January 12, 2013, 11:32:32 PM
The Constitution doesn't apply to US citizens entering Canada or Canadians entering the US... I do wonder if an American citizen entering the US would have to consent to a laptop search
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Brandon on January 12, 2013, 11:51:12 PM
Quote from: corco on January 12, 2013, 11:32:32 PM
The Constitution doesn't apply to US citizens entering Canada or Canadians entering the US... I do wonder if an American citizen entering the US would have to consent to a laptop search

IIRC, yes they do, as I've read it when coming back via ship.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 13, 2013, 12:14:16 AM
Quote from: corco on January 12, 2013, 11:32:32 PMThe Constitution doesn't apply to US citizens entering Canada or Canadians entering the US... I do wonder if an American citizen entering the US would have to consent to a laptop search

This piece by the Electronic Frontier Foundation suggests No, the reason being that the Fourth Amendment essentially does not apply at the border:

https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-privacy-us-border-guide-travelers-carrying-digital-devices

I think the reason for this, ultimately, is that customs officers have generally been held to have the right of warrantless search of newly arrived travellers.  This is a legal convention that pre-dates the Constitution and is more or less international in scope.

I have personally never had my electronic devices inspected in more than fifteen years of international travel, and indeed the EFF piece suggests that such searches are rare.  The consequences of having devices selected for inspection, however, can be quite severe, even in quotidian scenarios such as having a stockpile of illegally downloaded audiovisual material on a mass storage device.  This is why it is becoming more common to resort to home VPN servers and remote desktop connections to transfer sensitive data over the Internet, rather than physically transporting it across the border on a storage device.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 13, 2013, 01:20:21 PM
It's for this reason that I refuse to take electronic devices across the border if I can avoid it, especially since they've been known to seize electronic devices without cause.  I don't see a border exemption to the 4th amendment, so we can blame the supreme court on ruling on convenience rather than the actual wording in the Constitution (why the court is allowed to consider anything beyond the actual text of the Constitution is beyond me).
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 13, 2013, 02:07:47 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 13, 2013, 01:20:21 PMIt's for this reason that I refuse to take electronic devices across the border if I can avoid it, especially since they've been known to seize electronic devices without cause.  I don't see a border exemption to the 4th amendment, so we can blame the supreme court on ruling on convenience rather than the actual wording in the Constitution (why the court is allowed to consider anything beyond the actual text of the Constitution is beyond me).

Actually, the Fourth Amendment was never designed to limit customs officers in the performance of searches on new arrivals.  The black-letter text is as follows:

Quote from: Fourth AmendmentThe right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The key word is unreasonable.  Expansive searches at the border are not now and have never been considered unreasonable.  That may or may not be fair; it is just something that has been a feature of international law since the eighteenth century at least.  What is considered unreasonable (per the cites accompanying the EFF piece, some of which are to federal court decisions dealing with border searches) are things like this:

*  Keeping your data appliances indefinitely, without formally seizing them or telling you when they will be returned

*  Extending the border search by defining an extended part of your inland travel as part of the act of crossing the border

Edit:  If you want to see what a nightmarish border search by a Canada Customs officer looks like, just watch the movie Ararat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ararat_%28film%29

It is my personal gold standard for how badly pear-shaped things can go at the border.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 14, 2013, 10:22:20 AM
Quote from: oscar on January 12, 2013, 05:49:12 PM
I-75 ... obnoxious questions from U.S. Customs while in line about how come I wasn't married

Say what!!
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on January 14, 2013, 10:49:35 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2013, 02:31:59 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 10, 2013, 11:13:01 PM
mucho text

So, in general, have you had better experiences at major or minor crossings?

Never got a secondary at a secondary (badum-tish) crossing, and I've never waited much (except one time on U.S. 11 / QC 223 Canada-bound), therefore those. The smaller the better; that guy in the shack on the side of a deserted back road who sees only a dozen people in a day will probably be (relatively) friendlier than the one in the highway booth processing that amount of people every hour. And if I do get searched, at least I want the guy who acts like a human, which is more likely if he's not working like if he was on a production chain.

I've heard about getting your electronics searched, but I've never known anyone who's been through this until now. I never bring my external drives for this reason, and I do my own search on my laptop's hard disk on the day before I leave, secure-deleting anything that might cause trouble. Then I defrag it and blank out the free space.

(Don't worry, it's mostly stuff that the lobbyists from the MPAA, RIAA and software companies might not approve of. You can get in trouble for importing counterfeit "goods.")

Regarding U.S. exit inspections, they're probably very rare, since most crossings don't have any kind permanent setup that may facilitate those. I know of an internal checkpoint on I-87 southbound, but I don't think anyone here has ever seen it active.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 14, 2013, 11:35:43 AM
Given the Beyond the Border program, Canadian customs will soon be serving as "exit inspections" from the US...

I suspect that Canada wanted to try a computer search with me on one of my crossings (they asked if I had any hardware or software), but the joke was on them: I didn't have anything on me except my camera and phone.  I also had a customs officer who seemed very disappointed that I didn't have anything in my trunk.

I've also noticed another interesting thing with the border: I've NEVER seen a female US customs officer, but Canada appears to be 50/50.

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 13, 2013, 02:07:47 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 13, 2013, 01:20:21 PMIt's for this reason that I refuse to take electronic devices across the border if I can avoid it, especially since they've been known to seize electronic devices without cause.  I don't see a border exemption to the 4th amendment, so we can blame the supreme court on ruling on convenience rather than the actual wording in the Constitution (why the court is allowed to consider anything beyond the actual text of the Constitution is beyond me).

Actually, the Fourth Amendment was never designed to limit customs officers in the performance of searches on new arrivals.  The black-letter text is as follows:

Quote from: Fourth AmendmentThe right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The key word is unreasonable.  Expansive searches at the border are not now and have never been considered unreasonable.  That may or may not be fair; it is just something that has been a feature of international law since the eighteenth century at least.  What is considered unreasonable (per the cites accompanying the EFF piece, some of which are to federal court decisions dealing with border searches) are things like this:

*  Keeping your data appliances indefinitely, without formally seizing them or telling you when they will be returned

*  Extending the border search by defining an extended part of your inland travel as part of the act of crossing the border

Edit:  If you want to see what a nightmarish border search by a Canada Customs officer looks like, just watch the movie Ararat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ararat_%28film%29

It is my personal gold standard for how badly pear-shaped things can go at the border.
Personally, I don't agree about randomly searching people extensively without warrants at the border being reasonable, especially with citizens.  IMO, customs should NOT have anything to do with law enforcement like they do now - they should be border guards tasked with making sure applicable duties are paid and that inadmissible people and goods are turned back, nothing more.  If they encounter something illegal, they should simply turn the person back and alert law enforcement in the other country.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on January 14, 2013, 11:39:49 AM
I've seen two female U.S. customs inspectors. One was an african-american woman, I forgot where (it was when I was still crossing with my birth certificate), and the other was that PMSed bitch (to me, she deserves that title) in North Troy.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 14, 2013, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Steve on January 11, 2013, 05:12:49 PM
* US 3 NH-QC, because you can literally walk across the border without stopping at Customs. You park just before, walk by, tell them you're going hiking, and the trail is along the border.

this in stark contrast with Derby Line.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 14, 2013, 01:35:16 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 14, 2013, 11:39:49 AM
I've seen two female U.S. customs inspectors. One was an african-american woman, I forgot where (it was when I was still crossing with my birth certificate), and the other was that PMSed bitch (to me, she deserves that title) in North Troy.
Come to think of it, I have seen one: at the Byrne Dairy gas station in Cicero, NY.  She must have worked at Syracuse Airport.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 14, 2013, 01:36:21 PM
Sorry, I have much more experience crossing the southern border than the northern one, but I try to keep my comments and stories applicable to the thread.



When we cross into México, we use an out-of-the-way crossing, and I've found the officials to be pretty friendly.  Last time, in fact, one guy was cracking jokes inside the FMM office.  I try to avoid congestion in general, so it's good to know that slower crossings tend to be less obnoxious.

There's been more than one occasion that we were stopped at either an inspection point (inland station on both sides of the US-Mexican border) or a roadside checkpoint (in México), and then simply waved through when the officer noticed our child(ren) asleep in the back seat.  I guess they didn't want to wake them up; they must have kids of their own.

Quote from: deanej on January 14, 2013, 11:35:43 AM
I also had a customs officer who seemed very disappointed that I didn't have anything in my trunk.

Some friends of ours were once driving north from México to pick up some friends of theirs at the airport in Laredo.  It was just a day trip to pick them up, so they had nothing but a duffel bag in the back of their 4Runner.  That didn't stop US immigration in Laredo from bringing sniffer dogs into the vehicle, though.  Two dogs, and an empty vehicle.  Weird.

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 14, 2013, 11:39:49 AM
I've seen two female U.S. customs inspectors. One was an african-american woman, I forgot where (it was when I was still crossing with my birth certificate), and the other was that PMSed bitch (to me, she deserves that title) in North Troy.

I've had a female inspection agent at the inland station on I-35 north of Laredo.  Maybe more too, but I don't really pay attention to their sex/color/hairstyle/etc.  The one that really caught me off guard was a roadside checkpoint near Saltillo, Coahuila.  The officers were dressed in full riot gear, including face masks and assault rifles.  I heard one officer say to the other "Gringos" when they were looking at my DL and car import paperwork, and I wondered if that was good or bad.  When the other officer handed my stuff back to me, a pleasant female voice came from behind the face mask, wishing us well–in English, no less.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on January 14, 2013, 01:50:12 PM
One of my favourite border crossing memories comes from a few years ago crossing at the Detroit Windsor Tunnel.  A few friends and I had crossed to go to a Detroit Lions football game.  We tailgated, ate, drank, all of the fun stuff to do at a game.  On the way back, one of my friends had already passed out in the back from the drink by the time we hit Canadian customs.  With the back window rolled down for the Customs Inspector to see, she took one look at us asked "football game?" and let us through.

The Lions went 0-16 that season.  I lost $20 that game figuring that they were due.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 14, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 14, 2013, 01:35:16 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 14, 2013, 11:39:49 AM
I've seen two female U.S. customs inspectors. One was an african-american woman, I forgot where (it was when I was still crossing with my birth certificate), and the other was that PMSed bitch (to me, she deserves that title) in North Troy.
Come to think of it, I have seen one: at the Byrne Dairy gas station in Cicero, NY.  She must have worked at Syracuse Airport.

I've seen so many, in all countries, that I do not note it as unusual.  Mexico seems to have a smaller proportion of women working the land crossings, but their airports are staffed similarly to US and Canada.  Europe and South America seem to be just about 50/50.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: catch22 on January 14, 2013, 02:15:55 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 14, 2013, 11:35:43 AM
I also had a customs officer who seemed very disappointed that I didn't have anything in my trunk.

I've also noticed another interesting thing with the border: I've NEVER seen a female US customs officer, but Canada appears to be 50/50.

My only really bad experience was when a friend of mine & I were returning via the Ambassador Bridge at Detroit from a long weekend in Toronto.  It was about 10 at night, no line to speak of.  The agent took one look at us (darn hippie types) and sent us over to the main building for the secondary inspection.  They tore my car apart, poked around everywhere (including under the car), popped the hubcaps, deflated and broke the bead on the spare tire to look inside, and rifled our luggage and left it in a pile beside the car.  The two guys doing all this were obviously disappointed they didn't find a thing other than my stash of Coffee Crisp bars.

This was somewhat balanced out a couple of years later, when I and a different friend were returning home via the same crossing at 2 in the morning after a two-week camping trip in Quebec. The inside of the van we used was really messy (and I guess, so were we) and we had a couple of cases of beer we were bringing back for my dad.  The female agent (to date, my one and only on the US side) asked us if we had anything to declare.  I mentioned the beer, but she took a quick look at the mess in the van, smiled, and waved us on without another word.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 14, 2013, 02:16:06 PM
I don't think I have had my passport inspected by a female inspector any of the times I have entered the US at an airport.  (The women inspectors I have encountered at airports have tended to be working the green-suited dogs.)  I also don't think I have encountered a female inspector at a land crossing on the northern border, except once at Porthill, Idaho, when I walked past the Customs post to take photographs of the border monumentation, and then had to return through Customs to explain that I had not actually entered Canada.  I did have my passport processed going into Mexico by a female INM officer the second time I crossed at Ojinaga.

Quote from: deanej on January 14, 2013, 11:35:43 AMPersonally, I don't agree about randomly searching people extensively without warrants at the border being reasonable, especially with citizens.  IMO, customs should NOT have anything to do with law enforcement like they do now - they should be border guards tasked with making sure applicable duties are paid and that inadmissible people and goods are turned back, nothing more.  If they encounter something illegal, they should simply turn the person back and alert law enforcement in the other country.

As to expansiveness of border search, it doesn't really matter whether we agree with the legal doctrine underlying it--it is still what prevails.  I think there is a case for limiting search of data appliances because it is highly and unreasonably burdensome to be without data which is not duplicated on another device that is protected from search, but such a limitation will never happen absent specific Congressional action to limit the search powers of Customs officers.

It will never be practical to segregate Customs enforcement from law enforcement, because identification and confiscation of contraband is a key part of their duties.  I also don't agree that US citizens should have special protection from search that is not available to foreigners.  It damages our reputation for fairness and due process, and in any case US citizens already enjoy the advantage of guaranteed entry to the US that is not available to aliens.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Beeper1 on January 14, 2013, 08:56:37 PM
Quote
Regarding U.S. exit inspections, they're probably very rare, since most crossings don't have any kind permanent setup that may facilitate those. I know of an internal checkpoint on I-87 southbound, but I don't think anyone here has ever seen it active.

I remember that checkpoint being active back when I would be traveling to school in northern NY.  They would set up at the southbound High Peaks rest area between exits 30 and 29.  They also would set up a checkpoint fairly often on NY 30 southbound between Tupper Lake and Long Lake. Between those two, chekpoints (and increased police presence on US 9  in North Hudson, you would have to go a long way around to avoid a checkpoint stop.  This was back around 2003-2005ish, so I don't know if they still use those checkpoints today.  I don't know if a similar one was set up on I-81 or NY 12 below Lowville, but I know residents in northern NY were angry that they would frequently have to essentially clear customs just to go downstate. 
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on January 14, 2013, 09:13:05 PM
The signs for the High Peaks checkpoint are still there, folded up.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: realjd on January 15, 2013, 08:01:55 AM
I've always been hassled a bit by Canadian immigration (multiple ports of entry) but have never had any issues with CBP coming home.

Of course now that I have Global Entry, the conversation with the CBP officer at the land border last summer went like this:
<hand him my and my wife's GE cards>
CBP: How was Canada?
Me: Nice.
<officer hands them back>
CBP: Welcome home.

Come to think of it, I was hassled much less by the CBSA guy than usual that trip also. Unlike Nexus, Global Entry doesn't offer trusted traveler privileges into Canada, but he may have seen it pop up on his computer screen and decided we weren't trouble. All he asked us was how long we were staying and if we had any guns or drugs then let us through. Ordinarily they ask us a lot more than that.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 15, 2013, 12:45:26 PM
There's also folded signs for what I assume is an interior checkpoint on NY 30 between NY 86 and NY 456 (more generally, Saranac Lake and Malone).  I've also seen a border patrol car give a very thorough search of a truck at the snowplow turnaround on US 11 on the Jefferson-St. Lawrence county line too.  I don't think I-81 has any checkpoints.

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 14, 2013, 02:16:06 PM
As to expansiveness of border search, it doesn't really matter whether we agree with the legal doctrine underlying it--it is still what prevails.
The Constitution trumps "international convention", and it's worth pointing out the the US and Canada have the strictest border controls of any friendly countries on the planet.  The Europeans have no border controls between each other, and those countries hate each other!

QuoteIt will never be practical to segregate Customs enforcement from law enforcement, because identification and confiscation of contraband is a key part of their duties.  I also don't agree that US citizens should have special protection from search that is not available to foreigners.  It damages our reputation for fairness and due process, and in any case US citizens already enjoy the advantage of guaranteed entry to the US that is not available to aliens.
There is a big difference between making sure inadmissible goods and people don't get in and conducting general law enforcement operations (which is what customs currently does).  And as you said, US citizens are guaranteed entry.  That means that any procedures for determining whether one should be allowed to enter should not apply, yet you still have to prove yourself "worthy" of returning home before they'll let you go.

And yes, I'm in favor of eliminating the border.  If Europe can do it, so can we, at least as long as people can stop being paranoid over "terrorism".  Why does the government always insist on creating a boogeyman so that it can implement wartime policies without question?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 01:39:17 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 15, 2013, 12:45:26 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 14, 2013, 02:16:06 PMAs to expansiveness of border search, it doesn't really matter whether we agree with the legal doctrine underlying it--it is still what prevails.

The Constitution trumps "international convention" . . .

Not in this case.  The Constitution was deliberately designed to permit pass-through of English common law and certain legal institutions, such as the inviolability of diplomats (which is one reason foreign diplomats in the US can still get away with rape and murder with no sanction stronger than being declared persona non grata and deported) and expansive border search.

QuoteThe Europeans have no border controls between each other, and those countries hate each other!

The Europeans have a customs union, which is not the same thing at all.  Also, the EU countries have a very high degree of economic, technological, and infrastructural integration, which undercuts surface rivalries.

QuoteAnd as you said, US citizens are guaranteed entry.  That means that any procedures for determining whether one should be allowed to enter should not apply, yet you still have to prove yourself "worthy" of returning home before they'll let you go.

I would not characterize it quite that way.  Entry of your person is the only thing you get by unquestioned right as an US citizen.  Everybody who enters--whether US citizen or alien--has to satisfy the customs officers that he or she is not carrying contraband or dutiable goods which neither fit within duty-free allowances or have had all applicable duties paid.

QuoteAnd yes, I'm in favor of eliminating the border.  If Europe can do it, so can we, at least as long as people can stop being paranoid over "terrorism".  Why does the government always insist on creating a boogeyman so that it can implement wartime policies without question?

We have had strict border inspections for a lot longer than "securing the homeland" has been a policymaker's buzz phrase.  In fact inspections have been much stricter in the past, even in times of peace.  For example, my grandmother took several trips to western Europe in the early 1980's (before the Visa Waiver Program made travel to the US accessible to the masses in the EU-15) and remembered standing in line at Philadelphia International Airport waiting for a customs officer to open her suitcase and inspect the contents.  In contradistinction, I have never had to open my suitcase for a customs officer since I began flying between the US and western Europe in 1998.

In regard to the US-Canadian border, I am not really opposed to the idea of our having a customs union with Canada.  However, the political and legal obstacles to such an union are not all on our side.  It is true that Canada will admit travellers from some groups which we would not want to admit to the US without close inspection, but Canada also doesn't want to give up collecting duty from Canadians returning with US-purchased goods.  An open border would, for example, make a mockery of super-high Canadian cigarette duties, which are imposed for health reasons.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 15, 2013, 03:05:53 PM
I'd be in favor of South America style border crossings between the US and Canada.  the border would be closed, but the officials would be more cooperative than interrogative.  I'll never forget that in Chile and Argentina, we made (horrors!) friendly small talk with their officers! 

here, one is automatically assumed to be a threat just for wanting to enter the US.  (either a 'dirty foreigner', or in the case of a US citizen, a near-traitor who dared leave the glorious Homeland)  that strikes me as the most absurd part of this whole charade - being treated like a criminal, as opposed to someone who happens to want to cross an international boundary.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 15, 2013, 03:08:18 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 01:39:17 PM
(which is one reason foreign diplomats in the US can still get away with rape and murder with no sanction stronger than being declared persona non grata and deported)

is there an expectation, however, that the country to whom the diplomat belongs is expected to take care of the offender? 

I can imagine if a diplomat actually raped and/or murdered someone on US soil, the Secretary of State of Elbonia would be apologizing profusely and releasing video of the former diplomat being thrown into a dingy Elbonian jail.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Kniwt on January 15, 2013, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 15, 2013, 03:05:53 PM
here, one is automatically assumed to be a threat just for wanting to enter the US.  (either a 'dirty foreigner', or in the case of a US citizen, a near-traitor who dared leave the glorious Homeland)

Going slightly off-topic here, but I recently had my most pleasant re-entry ever to the USA, and it was at Los Algodones, B.C. / Andrade, Calif. -- although a lot of that had to do with it being Christmas Day and me being the only -- only! -- pedestrian in the whole inspection office. I had bicycled about 15 miles to Cd. Morelos and back, and there was literally nobody in the entire huge waiting area that was set up for pedestrians.

I walked up to the office, the door was closed, and the officer motioned for me to come in. His first words to me, after looking at my bike, were: "You don't get one of those at Walmart, do you?" We had a chat where all the key points were hit -- where I was from, why I'd done it (because it was Christmas, probably the least-congested day of the year to do it), and we spent about 10 minutes, and all the other idle officers joined in. Nothing was searched, it was just a chat, and not a single other pedestrian came in the whole time. I finally cut the whole thing short by saying that I needed to ride the final couple of miles back to my car before sunset.

Quite unlike the time re-entering at Blaine, Wash., in 2004 when upon hearing that I was a newspaper editor at the time, his next question was: "What do you write about the war?"
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 15, 2013, 03:47:12 PM
Quote from: Kniwt on January 15, 2013, 03:40:45 PM

Quite unlike the time re-entering at Blaine, Wash., in 2004 when upon hearing that I was a newspaper editor at the time, his next question was: "What do you write about the war?"

I absolutely despise that style of questioning, and am disgusted that it is part of the standard operating procedure for a government office which claims itself to be a legitimate arm of a democratic government.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: english si on January 15, 2013, 04:20:53 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 01:39:17 PMThe Europeans have a customs union, which is not the same thing at all.
Though it should be said that Schengen != Common Market - they aren't the same in overlap. Switzerland and the Common Market have a relationship similar to that of the US and Canada, but Switzerland is in Schengen (and the Common Travel Area isn't, but is mostly in the Common Market).

And while the customs union exist, bodies like HMRC can stop you bringing too many things that come under 'vice taxes'. French lower vice taxes spawned the 'booze cruise' trend, going to Warehouse booze-and-biscuits places in Calais for the day and filling your boot full of vice products, coming back. The question is 'personal use only', much like the Duty Free (which I remember existing for inside EU-15 travel via boat or plane - not the case now), but with higher limits as you did pay duty.

Then again, Switzerland is small, has several major transit routes between the surrounding countries, a wiggly border and such like. The irony is that they fairly recently spent a lot of money at Euro-Airport and Geneva Airport on separate Swiss/Schengen border controls (I'm pretty sure they did them up not too long ago). I guess it's still needed for the customs though.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 04:40:06 PM
Quote from: english si on January 15, 2013, 04:20:53 PMAnd while the customs union exists, bodies like HMRC can stop you bringing too many things that come under 'vice taxes'. French lower vice taxes spawned the 'booze cruise' trend, going to Warehouse booze-and-cigarettes places in Calais for the day and filling your boot full of vice products, coming back. The question is 'personal use only', much like the Duty Free (which I remember existing for inside EU-15 travel via boat or plane - not the case now), but with higher limits as you did pay duty.

I remember reading the court decision in the Hoverspeed case, where a group of friends drove an Escort down to France from Lancashire, and were caught on the return journey trying to bring in an unbelievable amount of alcohol and tobacco from France.  They tried, unsuccessfully, to claim that it was exempt from duty on the basis that they collectively were a private members' club and the booze and baccy had been purchased for their sole use.

It is also true that the EU member states are aware of the possibility of VAT fraud even for merchandise that does not fit the traditional vice categories.

So, a customs union does not preclude revenue enforcement even under the relatively liberal terms under which it is run in the EU.  For Canada (my impression has always been that Americans are nowhere near as keen as Canadians to collect duty from tourist travellers), I suspect the added cost and customer burden of tight inspections are deemed worth it for the added certainty of revenue collection and interdiction of vice merchandise which would otherwise cross the border in commercial quantities.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 15, 2013, 06:50:13 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 01:39:17 PM
Not in this case.  The Constitution was deliberately designed to permit pass-through of English common law and certain legal institutions, such as the inviolability of diplomats (which is one reason foreign diplomats in the US can still get away with rape and murder with no sanction stronger than being declared persona non grata and deported) and expansive border search.
Where in the document does it say anything like that?  I don't care one bit for anything the supreme court says - if the supreme court says something that the actual text of the document doesn't say, then the supreme court is wrong as far as I'm concerned.

QuoteWe have had strict border inspections for a lot longer than "securing the homeland" has been a policymaker's buzz phrase.  In fact inspections have been much stricter in the past, even in times of peace.  For example, my grandmother took several trips to western Europe in the early 1980's (before the Visa Waiver Program made travel to the US accessible to the masses in the EU-15) and remembered standing in line at Philadelphia International Airport waiting for a customs officer to open her suitcase and inspect the contents.  In contradistinction, I have never had to open my suitcase for a customs officer since I began flying between the US and western Europe in 1998.

In regard to the US-Canadian border, I am not really opposed to the idea of our having a customs union with Canada.  However, the political and legal obstacles to such an union are not all on our side.  It is true that Canada will admit travellers from some groups which we would not want to admit to the US without close inspection, but Canada also doesn't want to give up collecting duty from Canadians returning with US-purchased goods.  An open border would, for example, make a mockery of super-high Canadian cigarette duties, which are imposed for health reasons.
I've only been across the land border with Canada, so I wouldn't know anything about air travel or Mexico, but before 9/11 going through customs was no more of a burden than taking your toll ticket to enter the Thruway.  My, how things have changed since then...  In many places the border was a mere formality.  In some places, it didn't even exist for all practical purposes (such as Derby Lane, VT and Stanstead, QC, which had no customs controls if you avoided US 5 and I-91, and nobody cared; this also held for the 1000 Islands on boat prior to the post-9/11 construction of the customs booth at Boldt Castle).

I remember that during the 90s the US and Canada were actively working towards eliminating the border, so I'm not sure what changed other than 9/11.  I have noticed that Canadians are less lenient on duties, probably because 90% of their population lives within driving distance of the US, while the majority of the US population would have to drive far away to get to Canada.

My biggest beef with the border is that it's inconvenient for roadgeeking.  I've done several road trips in the US where I had no other purpose whatsoever than to clinch highways (though my winter ones are allegedly to "keep the car running").  Any foray into Canada needs at least some other purpose, so it naturally follows that my clinched mileage in Canada is much lower than in the US despite having lived within 40 miles of the border my entire life (well, except for one summer internship, that is).

I've also gotten the "why would you go to Canada when we have everything in the US" attitude from customs at least once.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 15, 2013, 06:50:13 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 01:39:17 PMNot in this case.  The Constitution was deliberately designed to permit pass-through of English common law and certain legal institutions, such as the inviolability of diplomats (which is one reason foreign diplomats in the US can still get away with rape and murder with no sanction stronger than being declared persona non grata and deported) and expansive border search.

Where in the document does it say anything like that?  I don't care one bit for anything the supreme court says - if the supreme court says something that the actual text of the document doesn't say, then the supreme court is wrong as far as I'm concerned.

The Constitution doesn't say anything directly--it merely leaves existing law untouched.  That is how written constitutions typically work.  Most states have overhauled their state constitutions several times but in each case the existing body of law has been carried through from the old constitution to the new one (except in isolated cases where legal provisions which have become unconstitutional are either repealed or allowed to stand without enforcement).

(To answer Jake's question upthread:  I am not aware that the home country is expected to try diplomats accused of serious crimes in the countries to which they are accredited.  I think the more usual procedure is for the diplomat's home country to waive immunity so that the diplomat can be tried in the country where the crimes occurred, but the greasier the villain, the less likely this is to happen.)

QuoteI've only been across the land border with Canada, so I wouldn't know anything about air travel or Mexico, but before 9/11 going through customs was no more of a burden than taking your toll ticket to enter the Thruway.  My, how things have changed since then...

Has it, really?  The only change which I have actually experienced at the land border is the need to use a passport because of WHTI.  Even in 1991 we had to do a verbal declaration when re-entering the US from Canada, so it was not as casual as picking up a Thruway toll ticket.

QuoteIn many places the border was a mere formality.  In some places, it didn't even exist for all practical purposes (such as Derby Lane, VT and Stanstead, QC, which had no customs controls if you avoided US 5 and I-91, and nobody cared; this also held for the 1000 Islands on boat prior to the post-9/11 construction of the customs booth at Boldt Castle).

These have seen considerable change since 9/11, I will grant you that, but I think they qualify as edge cases.

QuoteI remember that during the 90s the US and Canada were actively working towards eliminating the border, so I'm not sure what changed other than 9/11.  I have noticed that Canadians are less lenient on duties, probably because 90% of their population lives within driving distance of the US, while the majority of the US population would have to drive far away to get to Canada.

There was a lot going on in the mid-1990's besides it being before 9/11.  NAFTA had just come into effect, so there was a lot of policy momentum in favor of cross-border integration.  Several commentators, notably Lester Thurow, floated the idea of the NAFTA area turning into a sort of clone of the EU, with a customs and immigration union between the US and Canada at the least, and supernational institutions coordinating key areas of trade and economic policy.  At this time the EU seemed to have the potential to be more competitive economically than the US because it represented a potential unified economic and common-currency area with a population greater than that of the US, a per capita income comparable to that of the US, and full internal mobility of capital and labor comparable to that prevailing in the US.  It really did look at the time as if the US would need to enter into a much closer partnership with its neighbors in order to compete in a new managed-trade world consisting of multi-country blocs such as the EU, MERCOSUR, SADC, etc.

The problems the EU has had economically since the early noughties have taken away a lot of momentum for cross-border integration in the NAFTA zone.  The euro has been the next best thing to a failure, because there is not enough labor mobility in the euro area to offset the disadvantages of the uniform interest rate.  The eurozone has turned out to be much smaller than envisioned in the 1990's because several big players in the EU, notably Britain and Sweden, steered clear of the single currency after first intimating that they might join.  The EU as a whole is aging, and not bringing in enough new blood through immigration to stave off crises in old-age pensions and other social provision.  No cure is in sight because EU immigration policy is overtight and sclerotic, and the agenda is owned by right-wing parties which resist expanded immigration.  We in the US no longer worry about a resurgent EU; instead we fear an EU collapse.

Put simply, a lot of the impetus for customs and immigration union with Canada that existed in the 1990's is just not there anymore.

QuoteMy biggest beef with the border is that it's inconvenient for roadgeeking.  I've done several road trips in the US where I had no other purpose whatsoever than to clinch highways (though my winter ones are allegedly to "keep the car running").  Any foray into Canada needs at least some other purpose, so it naturally follows that my clinched mileage in Canada is much lower than in the US despite having lived within 40 miles of the border my entire life (well, except for one summer internship, that is).

In my experience, it does not take much of an excuse to get into Canada.

QuoteI've also gotten the "why would you go to Canada when we have everything in the US" attitude from customs at least once.

I have never had that reaction.  I have heard "the US has a lot of stuff to see, so why don't you see that first before you travel abroad" staple from my relatives in the US, but never from US customs or immigration officers.  (I think that sentiment originates from a Will Rogers quote, and while I think it is fine to suggest seeing stuff in the US as far as that goes, my outlook is basically internationalist and cosmopolitan, so I don't really buy the idea that the US stuff should be seen first, or that seeing it should be a greater priority than seeing stuff abroad, etc.)

There is a flip answer to that question that can be given--"The US has a lot of stuff to see, but it doesn't have the stuff that is in Canada"--but personally I don't see a need for a conversation with a border official to get onto that track.  The border is no place to get gabby.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 15, 2013, 09:38:14 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 15, 2013, 06:50:13 PM
I remember that during the 90s the US and Canada were actively working towards eliminating the border, so I'm not sure what changed other than 9/11.  I have noticed that Canadians are less lenient on duties, probably because 90% of their population lives within driving distance of the US, while the majority of the US population would have to drive far away to get to Canada.

In a perfect world, the United States and Canada would just join the Schengen agreement (and encourage the UK to do the same) and scrap most border controls between the U.S. and Canada.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on January 16, 2013, 11:41:48 AM
I have to agree with deanej on the pre 9/11 land borders, especially on rural crossings. At times, we'd get waved through into the US after two questions, and would come back with a simple "Not bringing anything back? - No." without anyone checking any document. The guy was literally yelling away from the door of his office.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 16, 2013, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 09:07:15 PM
The Constitution doesn't say anything directly--it merely leaves existing law untouched.  That is how written constitutions typically work.  Most states have overhauled their state constitutions several times but in each case the existing body of law has been carried through from the old constitution to the new one (except in isolated cases where legal provisions which have become unconstitutional are either repealed or allowed to stand without enforcement).
The version of history I learned says that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and that the federal government is not allowed to do anything not explicitly stated in the Constitution.  It is this interpretation that I follow.

QuoteHas it, really?  The only change which I have actually experienced at the land border is the need to use a passport because of WHTI.  Even in 1991 we had to do a verbal declaration when re-entering the US from Canada, so it was not as casual as picking up a Thruway toll ticket.
From what I remember, in the 90s a typical customs stop with my family on I-81 would consist of "where are you from", "where are you going", and "welcome to Ontario" (note that these days they always say "you're all set" if they say anything at all when handing back documents; I guess this was too friendly).  I didn't even realize that countries were more different from each other than states were until I was in middle school or high school, and I still didn't think of Canada as "foreign" until WHTI.  I've also noticed that the amount of places in the 1000 Islands flying both US and Canadian flags has gone down significantly in the past two years.

QuoteThese have seen considerable change since 9/11, I will grant you that, but I think they qualify as edge cases.
I never have, but then again I can count on two fingers the number of times I've crossed outside the St. Lawrence, and both of those were at Niagara Falls.

QuoteIn my experience, it does not take much of an excuse to get into Canada.
True, but most of my trips consist of "drive for 8 hours stopping only for food and gas".  At some point I hope to get some trips that consist of more than food and gas for Canada, but it's dependent on me getting a job right now.

QuoteThe border is no place to get gabby.
Sometimes the officials don't leave a choice, though I don't usually get that problem now that I have my enhanced driver's licence for some reason.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 16, 2013, 12:30:02 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 16, 2013, 11:41:48 AM
I have to agree with deanej on the pre 9/11 land borders, especially on rural crossings. At times, we'd get waved through into the US after two questions, and would come back with a simple "Not bringing anything back? - No." without anyone checking any document. The guy was literally yelling away from the door of his office.

As recently as three years ago, I was waiting in line at the CBP exit checkpoint leading to the Colombia border crossing (upriver of Laredo), when a pickup just drove up alongside the queue of vehicles.  He stopped next to our car, which was at the head of the line, and rolled down the window.  One CBP official shouted to the other one, "Frequent crosser", and they waved the guy on without further ado.  Of course, that was southbound; I don't know if they do the same thing northbound.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 16, 2013, 12:43:11 PM
seems like an exit interview is much more at the discretion of the CBP officers present.  I doubt that they would have that kind of informal "Sentri line" for inbound traffic.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: english si on January 16, 2013, 01:01:13 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 15, 2013, 09:38:14 PMIn a perfect world, the United States and Canada would just join the Schengen agreement (and encourage the UK to do the same) and scrap most border controls between the U.S. and Canada.
If the US joins, then we would join in a snip.

Our current problem with Schengen is
1)Countries out east don't really want to enforce the border that much - partially as they will just be a transit country for immigrants
2)Most of the illegal immigrants want to go to the UK, where there's little room for them - even those who love immigrants agree about the lack of space
3)Our not being in Schengen means that we can deal with those who illegally want to get here, rather than relying on an Eastern European country - working with the French authorities, we sorted out the camps of people trying to cross the channel for instance (it was a major embarrassment for the French that they had a load of immigrants living there in tents trying to leave them for England)

If the US joins Schengen then its money for strict border controls will exist on that eastern frontier and there'd be a country (well 2) with space, more jobs, etc - instead of aiming to cross the Channel, they'd be aiming to cross the Atlantic.

The moment, however, you lecture us about integration with our European friends, you've just turned a large number of people against that aim - either by being evil America, or by reminding us of those glorious British freedoms and ideals we once had and the process that caused us to (first of all) lose you guys and finally end up yoked to these people who just don't get those long-lost ideals (and even despise such ideals).
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: DBrim on January 16, 2013, 03:58:24 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 11, 2013, 05:12:49 PM* Fort Kent, for its beauty
I didn't like Fort Kent because the US Guards simply could not comprehend me wanting to take ME-11 over 1 or TC2, and thus were very perplexed that I would choose to cross there over the crossing in Edmundston or Houlton.  Over an hour of questioning because of it.

Other least favorites include crossing into Canada along the Alaska highway, since they made us stand outside during winter while they checked our car.  US-bound at Jackman, ME was pretty bad, too.

As Jake already mentioned, the Chile to Argentina crossings were particularly easy and bordered on fun at times.  Except the crossing at Chile Chico, since they close early for no reason and cost us a few hours of good light.

I've never received a US passport stamp when enterring the country via air or via car.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 16, 2013, 04:00:41 PM
Quote from: DBrim on January 16, 2013, 03:58:24 PM
I've never received a US passport stamp when enterring the country via air or via car.

must be different rules for US citizens.  for me (Hungarian citizen, US green card), it's a consistent "yes by air, no by ground".
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 16, 2013, 05:39:12 PM
Honestly, I've never understood the point of an exit interview.  What's the point of going through customs to leave a country?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kkt on January 16, 2013, 06:39:55 PM
Worst experiences:  I was about 8 years old and my grandparents brought me to Baja for spring break along with their younger kids.  My mom wrote a permission letter, but my dad didn't sign it as well.  So the Mexico border guards kept us in the border station for a couple of hours while they got my dad on the phone.  They did let us in after that.  Fair enough, they were just doing their job I guess.  They were polite about it.

More recently, about 2000, we brought a friend from Vancouver to Seattle to visit for a couple of days.  He was a polite, softspoken young man, but for some reason the U.S. border guard saw the need to get an inch from his face and yell.  He was in the Canadian military and showed his military ID when the border guard asked his job.  The guard didn't delay us or have us searched, but I felt ashamed to be American after that treatment.  Friend thought later that reaction was because his ID said "reserve", which in the U.S. means part-time service, but in Canada can mean full-time work but not eligible to be sent overseas.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: realjd on January 16, 2013, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 05:39:12 PM
Honestly, I've never understood the point of an exit interview.  What's the point of going through customs to leave a country?

One of the big reasons is export duties or expert restrictions. It's illegal to export antiquities from many countries for instance, and at the Mexican border the US CBP officers are often looking for undeclared cash leaving the country (anything over $10k must be declared). Other countries charge an exit tax be paid or an exit visa and they're checking for that, and some countries check to make sure the person doesn't have any outstanding warrants or something. It also provides a convenient way for a traveler to get a carnet signed which can be a complete PIA here in the states since you often have to go find some obscure hard-to-find customs office to get that done.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 16, 2013, 07:36:07 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 09:07:15 PMThe Constitution doesn't say anything directly--it merely leaves existing law untouched.  That is how written constitutions typically work.  Most states have overhauled their state constitutions several times but in each case the existing body of law has been carried through from the old constitution to the new one (except in isolated cases where legal provisions which have become unconstitutional are either repealed or allowed to stand without enforcement).

The version of history I learned says that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and that the federal government is not allowed to do anything not explicitly stated in the Constitution.  It is this interpretation that I follow.

The point I think you are missing is that, since the Constitution does not explicitly disallow warrantless border search, and Congress has not specifically banned it, courts are influenced by prior law and judicial precedent in interpreting the Fourth Amendment in respect of border searches.  The legal convention (which pre-dates the Constitution and is considered to have been saved by it) is that customs officers have almost unlimited powers of search, so long as the search happens at the border or is in some other way intimately tied to the act of crossing the border.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: 1995hoo on January 17, 2013, 10:06:47 AM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 05:39:12 PM
Honestly, I've never understood the point of an exit interview.  What's the point of going through customs to leave a country?

Some countries with strict access control are very picky about it–in Russia, for example, if you overstay beyond your visa's expiry, you will be fined and you won't be allowed to leave the country until you get your visa extended. Over the years it's frequently tripped up tourists trying to leave on the train from St. Petersburg to Helsinki–the train leaves St. Petersburg in the evening but crosses the border after midnight, so if your visa expires on the day the train leaves, you'll overstay your visa.

As a general matter in the United States, the lack of exit controls is one reason why your duty-free purchases at the airport are delivered to you at the gate when you board the plane. It's how they make sure the tax-free purchases leave the country.

I've never seen exit inspections when leaving the United States except for commercial vehicles, although I see from the comments in this thread that it happens. I've never driven to Mexico, though. Usually when I've crossed the border at major checkpoints there's an exit for "Export Control" and the only people who head over there are commercial drivers. For the majority of tourists it's not much of an issue, although no doubt you've encountered software packages whose labels say there are limits on export (usually due to encryption or some such thing) and so in theory (though usually not in practice) those could pose an issue.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on January 17, 2013, 12:24:48 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 16, 2013, 07:36:07 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 15, 2013, 09:07:15 PMThe Constitution doesn't say anything directly--it merely leaves existing law untouched.  That is how written constitutions typically work.  Most states have overhauled their state constitutions several times but in each case the existing body of law has been carried through from the old constitution to the new one (except in isolated cases where legal provisions which have become unconstitutional are either repealed or allowed to stand without enforcement).

The version of history I learned says that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and that the federal government is not allowed to do anything not explicitly stated in the Constitution.  It is this interpretation that I follow.

The point I think you are missing is that, since the Constitution does not explicitly disallow warrantless border search, and Congress has not specifically banned it, courts are influenced by prior law and judicial precedent in interpreting the Fourth Amendment in respect of border searches.  The legal convention (which pre-dates the Constitution and is considered to have been saved by it) is that customs officers have almost unlimited powers of search, so long as the search happens at the border or is in some other way intimately tied to the act of crossing the border.
The Constitution doesn't explicitly allow for it either, though.  In case you haven't noticed, I'm a strict constructionist.  As far as I'm concerned, courts shouldn't be allowed to consider anything other than the actual text of the law - not even prior court rulings.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 17, 2013, 12:29:18 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 05:39:12 PM
Honestly, I've never understood the point of an exit interview.  What's the point of going through customs to leave a country?

for a country where one has to cancel out their temporary legal stay (visa, etc), it makes perfect sense.  I don't know if this is the case with the US, as I have a much different legal status.  (there is also the shade of difference between a voluntary exit procedure - you yourself pulling over and taking care of your paperwork - versus a mandatory stop.)

for a country whose neighbor does not do consistent entry interviews, it also makes sense.  you can go very far in Mexico without running into a formal aduana checkpoint (all the way down Baja, and ~30km into the mainland) and therefore if guns, large quantities of money, etc, are going into Mexico and about to disappear in the borderlands, the US might as well see if they can put a stop to it. 

edit: everyone else did a better job explaining it!
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kkt on January 17, 2013, 12:30:09 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 12:00:11 PM
The version of history I learned says that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and that the federal government is not allowed to do anything not explicitly stated in the Constitution.  It is this interpretation that I follow.

Stopping people at the border and possibly searching them is allowed under the constitution, if you read it with understanding.  Look at Article I, Section 8, the first and the last paragraphs:

Quote
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

In order to collect duties on imports, and for those taxes not to be just a gentle suggestion, they have to be able to search people entering the country; laws and executive orders allowing those searches are necessary and proper.

This is not after the fact justification.  We tried running the country without a "necessary and proper" clause and a shorter list of federal powers.  It was the articles of confederation, and it didn't work very well.  The founders knew they were expanding federal powers when they adopted the present constitution, and meant to do so.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: hbelkins on January 17, 2013, 02:50:32 PM
My wife tells how when she was an infant, her family went to Canada. They did not have a birth certificate for her and they had difficulties getting back into the USA because of it. I'm guessing this happened at Detroit, since she grew up in Ohio and her mother's siblings had all relocated from Kentucky to the Ypsilanti-Ann Arbor area.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: ghYHZ on January 17, 2013, 03:07:12 PM
I've crossed a couple of times at North Troy VT/Highwater QC .......a sleepy little Border Post on Route 243 (same # in both QC & VT) and a short-cut back to AutoRoute 10 when returning from a day's skiing at Jay's Peak VT.

Best way to describe the Guard was "Boarder Dude"  as in Snow Boarder. He saw our skis and was very professional in the questions he had to ask. But after that......just wanted to talk skiing and that days conditions until the next car showed-up in line behind us.   
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 17, 2013, 03:14:00 PM
Quote from: ghYHZ on January 17, 2013, 03:07:12 PM
I've crossed a couple of times at North Troy VT/Highwater QC .......a sleepy little Border Post on Route 243 (same # in both QC & VT) and a short-cut back to AutoRoute 10 when returning from a day's skiing at Jay's Peak VT.

Best way to describe the Guard was "Boarder Dude"  as in Snow Boarder. He saw our skis and was very professional in the questions he had to ask. But after that......just wanted to talk skiing and that days conditions until the next car showed-up in line behind us.

is this on the US or the Canadian side?  I once attempted to cross there, but the Canadian guy would not let my rental car in.  (odd, because I did have the permissions; it just wasn't explicitly stated on the contract)  he was very friendly, while his US counterpart was the usual taciturn. 

I'm not sure which helped my cause less: my failure to be let into Canada, or the fact that it didn't have too much bearing on my plans.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: ghYHZ on January 17, 2013, 03:28:56 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 17, 2013, 03:14:00 PM
is this  on the US or the Canadian side?.......

This was on the Canadian side
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: DBrim on January 17, 2013, 04:25:09 PM
In general, I actually have just as much, if not more trouble getting into Canada than getting into the US.  The Canadian guards are generally nicer about it, but I can only recall three times (out of 8 or so) that I have been able to get through the Canadian border WITHOUT exiting the vehicle.

Speaking of that, one to add to the list of favorites: The Canada-bound border patrol station in Hyder, Alaska.  We were only in the US for 5 minutes or so, so the lady probably saw us enter.  The questions were along these lines:

"How long were you in the US?" - about 5 minutes or so.
"How long are you going to be in Canada?" - about two days. 
"Did you get Hyderized?" - no. 
"Very good, welcome to Canada."
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on January 17, 2013, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: DBrim on January 17, 2013, 04:25:09 PM"Did you get Hyderized?" - no. 
:-D
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: oscar on January 17, 2013, 05:55:21 PM
Quote from: DBrim on January 17, 2013, 04:25:09 PM
Speaking of that, one to add to the list of favorites: The Canada-bound border patrol station in Hyder, Alaska.  We were only in the US for 5 minutes or so, so the lady probably saw us enter.  The questions were along these lines:

"How long were you in the US?" - about 5 minutes or so.
"How long are you going to be in Canada?" - about two days. 
"Did you get Hyderized?" - no. 
"Very good, welcome to Canada."

I did get "Hyderized" on my visit there in 1994.  The local paramedic advised my to walk around town a few hours, to get my blood alcohol back below the Canadian limit before recrossing the border.  While there was no checkpoint on either side of the border back then, I was warned that the RCMP watched the border for DWI violators, as well as Stewart BC residents trying to smuggle cheap booze and tobacco purchased at the "Val-Mart" in Hyder. 

Hyder's bar is close enough to the border that you could conceivably been Hyderized during a five-minute visit. 
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 17, 2013, 06:34:39 PM
Quote from: oscar on January 17, 2013, 05:55:21 PM

I did get "Hyderized" on my visit there in 1994.  The local paramedic advised my to walk around town a few hours, to get my blood alcohol back below the Canadian limit before recrossing the border.  While there was no checkpoint on either side of the border back then, I was warned that the RCMP watched the border for DWI violators, as well as Stewart BC residents trying to smuggle cheap booze and tobacco purchased at the "Val-Mart" in Hyder. 

Hyder's bar is close enough to the border that you could conceivably been Hyderized during a five-minute visit. 

that's precisely what I was worried about - my BAC shooting through the roof.  isn't Canada's threshold .03 or something similarly low?  Given my weight, one shot of Everclear would get me to about .05.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 17, 2013, 08:37:51 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 05:39:12 PM
Honestly, I've never understood the point of an exit interview.  What's the point of going through customs to leave a country?

You might appreciate the fact that the CBP checks American vehicles for guns and ammunition when they leave the US for México.  Where do you think the Mexican cartels get their guns?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Brandon on January 17, 2013, 11:22:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2013, 08:37:51 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 05:39:12 PM
Honestly, I've never understood the point of an exit interview.  What's the point of going through customs to leave a country?

You might appreciate the fact that the CBP checks American vehicles for guns and ammunition when they leave the US for México.  Where do you think the Mexican cartels get their guns?

That, and the fact that having an unauthorized firearm in Mexico carries a substantial sentence in a Mexican jail, IIRC.  Hence the supersized signage mentioning "NO FIREARMS IN MEXICO" before the border.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on January 18, 2013, 12:06:45 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 17, 2013, 06:34:39 PM
Quote from: oscar on January 17, 2013, 05:55:21 PM

I did get "Hyderized" on my visit there in 1994.  The local paramedic advised my to walk around town a few hours, to get my blood alcohol back below the Canadian limit before recrossing the border.  While there was no checkpoint on either side of the border back then, I was warned that the RCMP watched the border for DWI violators, as well as Stewart BC residents trying to smuggle cheap booze and tobacco purchased at the "Val-Mart" in Hyder. 

Hyder's bar is close enough to the border that you could conceivably been Hyderized during a five-minute visit. 

that's precisely what I was worried about - my BAC shooting through the roof.  isn't Canada's threshold .03 or something similarly low?  Given my weight, one shot of Everclear would get me to about .05.

Depends on the province. .05 for most, .08 in Québec. Federal criminal offense above .08 in all provinces.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 18, 2013, 09:20:24 AM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on January 18, 2013, 12:06:45 AM

Depends on the province. .05 for most, .08 in Québec. Federal criminal offense above .08 in all provinces.

figured.

I'm not much of a drunk driver, but I get the idea that what I perceive as .03 is definitely not .08 but could be .05 if I'm not careful.  One strong beer (7%, 16oz) might do it for me. 
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 18, 2013, 02:48:39 PM
Quote from: Brandon on January 17, 2013, 11:22:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2013, 08:37:51 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 16, 2013, 05:39:12 PM
Honestly, I've never understood the point of an exit interview.  What's the point of going through customs to leave a country?

You might appreciate the fact that the CBP checks American vehicles for guns and ammunition when they leave the US for México.  Where do you think the Mexican cartels get their guns?

That, and the fact that having an unauthorized firearm in Mexico carries a substantial sentence in a Mexican jail, IIRC.  Hence the supersized signage mentioning "NO FIREARMS IN MEXICO" before the border.

True, but I doubt the CBP is too worried about the possiblity of your ending up in a Mexican jail.  That's simply not their concern.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Sykotyk on January 19, 2013, 03:44:18 PM
I've had a few interesting cross-border stories going into or out of Canada. I've had a few uneventful ones, as well.

First time was the longest inspection, I was 17 and I crossed at about 2am on I-190. The first booth you pull up to the lady asked me "Citizenship", and I thought she was asking for proof, so I started handing her my license (this was in the late 90s). She then waived off the license, and asked "Where did you come from?" And I looked over my shoulder, pointed behind me and said, "That road, right there."

Needless to say, I got a card to take to the inspection bay for a further analysis. She was certain I was meeting someone up there from the internet (not the case), or that was forced to run drugs (not the case). About an hour later and my car completely torn apart (the floor had garbage on it and they were kind enough to spread it all over the seats).

Probably the other big reason was I was honest and said I had driven 5 hours and planned on being in Canada about 2 hours and then was going to drive home. Sucks to be honest. Now I always say "for the weekend", no matter how long I plan on staying.

Second interesting crossing was with a friend in my grandfather's car on the Ambassador Bridge into Canada. My grandfather lives in Detroit, but is still a legal resident of Pennsylvania. I borrowed his car when I was up there, and didn't think to look at the plates. So, I crossed the border and was pretty straight forward that we were just going to the casino for the night. When I told them my grandfather lived in Detroit, they questioned why the car had PA tags (and I'm an Ohio resident, my friend is from PA). So, Canada calls us for a vehicle inspection. I didn't know this, as well, but my grandfather's car had a security system on it (an aging Lincoln), that had a bypass with a switch under the hood. If you flip the switch, it disables the car (and takes forever for the computer to start working properly). Well, we're standing behind a jersey barrier while the inspector goes through the car and notices all these extra wires and this switch, and asks, "What's this switch for?" And we have no clue. Meanwhile, he's switching it on and off (obviously, he doesn't think it's a bomb, or he's the worst bomb expert ever). Finally, he says we're free to go. But, the car won't start. Nothing. Won't crank. No lights. Then we figure it's the switch. Flip it, and the car runs, ... kinda. It won't stay running at idle speed. Which meant holding the brake and accelerator at the same time at lights (and even that failed sometimes). We also decided to come back through the tunnel, and kept worrying about the car dying. And, we got called for an inspection on the way back. But, that wasn't the interesting part. We were escorted to the waiting room and then distraught 18-year-old comes in, panicked, saying "they put my friend in handcuffs". He asked if that was a bad thing? We agreed, it probably was. They impounded his car. While we waited, we figured he had warrants out and was caught on reentry.

Blue Water Bridge, Peace Bridge, Rainbow Bridge, I-91, Calais, ME, and US395 (into Canada) and I-5 (into US) were never a problem for me any other time. Had a long talk with the US395 Canadian inspector as I was the only one there and it was getting late. I just told him I was out for a drive for the weekend. Was in Spokane for business and saw my rental car was allowed to enter Canada. Drove the Crows Nest by Osoyoos and eventually toward Vancouver and the BC-99 to I-5. Beautiful drive up that way. Especially westbound down the hill into Osoyoos.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: roadman65 on January 19, 2013, 07:29:05 PM
Sounds to me from many, that the border patrols have an interesting way of feeling people out!  Gabbing about personal interests when no one is around is rather effective and I am sure these agents get bored sitting around all day in the isolated entrees.  They are killing two birds with one stone basically.

Then the one where they ask strange questions are just like new job interviewers that asks questions not pertaining to the job at all!  Now days, some potential employers throw in a somewhat off the wall question just to see how you would respond, to test you!  In a job that requires quick thinking, they may ask a dumb question that requires you to take a little time to figure out what is going on.  How fast you figure it out shows if you are their specific hiring material.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: oscar on January 19, 2013, 08:08:04 PM
Quote from: Sykotyk on January 19, 2013, 03:44:18 PM
Drove the Crows Nest by Osoyoos and eventually toward Vancouver and the BC-99 to I-5. Beautiful drive up that way. Especially westbound down the hill into Osoyoos.
Customs agents on both sides of the border seem to completely understand why you want(ed) to travel the awesome Crowsnest Highway (BC/AB 3).  I mentioned that doing the crossing, in both directions in different years.  Something you might want to work into whatever you say at the border in eastern Washington/British Columbia, if you're crossing in daylight.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Sykotyk on January 19, 2013, 10:52:02 PM
Quote from: oscar on January 19, 2013, 08:08:04 PM
Quote from: Sykotyk on January 19, 2013, 03:44:18 PM
Drove the Crows Nest by Osoyoos and eventually toward Vancouver and the BC-99 to I-5. Beautiful drive up that way. Especially westbound down the hill into Osoyoos.
Customs agents on both sides of the border seem to completely understand why you want(ed) to travel the awesome Crowsnest Highway (BC/AB 3).  I mentioned that doing the crossing, in both directions in different years.  Something you might want to work into whatever you say at the border in eastern Washington/British Columbia, if you're crossing in daylight.

Would definitely want to go back and drive the rest. Maybe when I finally drive to Alaska, I'll take some detours around AB/BC.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: thenetwork on January 20, 2013, 08:39:40 AM
Of all the times I have crossed back & forth into Canada (Niagara/Detroit/Port Huron Areas), I never had to pull off for inspection or additional questioning. 

My favorite border crossing was somewhere just north of Havre, MT, crossing into Alberta.  2 Houses in the middle of empty high desert plain (one on each side of the border).  The houses looked like the old filling stations of the 20's & 30's with the vehicles pulling underneath an extended porch roof -- the customs agents were about as friendly and informal AS a filling station attendant from that era to boot.  And you just had to make sure that if you were coming back later that day, you had to be sure you got back before the border "closed" at 8PM -- They would lock up the road gate until the next morning, and the next closest 24/7 border crossing was I-15 about 125 miles west.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on January 22, 2013, 08:54:28 PM
I dug this up for a parallel thread:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/gg00038.pdf

An interesting statistic--of 140 million passengers inspected by Customs in fiscal 1997 and 1998, only 102,000 (less than 0.1% of the total) were subjected to some form of "personal search," defined in the report as anything from a patdown to (in ascending order by intrusiveness and need for higher-level approval) to partial body search, X-ray, full cavity search, or a monitored bowel movement.  It was evidently not possible, however, to obtain information on the proportion of arrivals selected for secondary inspection.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: A.J. Bertin on January 24, 2013, 01:38:20 PM
I've crossed the border several times over the past 10 years or so. Whenever I cross, it's usually between Michigan and Ontario and is almost always the Blue Water Bridge. However, I've also crossed at the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel, the Ambassador Bridge, the International Bridge (Sault Ste. Marie), and also the Peace and Rainbow Bridges between Ontario and New York.

I generally don't have too many issues, but the time I had the most difficulty was when I was driving back home from a road meet in Rochester, New York, in 2010. I had crossed the Peace Bridge from Buffalo into Ontario and was cutting across Ontario on my way home to Grand Rapids, Michigan. Getting into Canada was fine, but getting back into the U.S. in Port Huron was a pain. I was driving alone, had my passport, and answered the questions sufficiently, but I was asked to pull off to the side and get out of my car. There were five cars that were being inspected by some large vehicle, and out of the five, mine was selected to be searched. They looked inside the cabin and trunk of my car. I was worried because I had brought a few albums with photos of U.S. road signs (Michigan state highway shields), and I feared that they would ask me more about those. Fortunately they didn't. After waiting for about 15 minutes or so, all of us were cleared to go.

It is interesting trying to explain roadgeeking as a purpose for crossing the border. There was a group of us who attended the Port Huron MI/Sarnia ON road meet in August 2012, and I was the passenger in Brian Rawson-Ketchum's car. We explained to the Canadian customs agent that were joining up with a group of highway enthusiasts, and she asked us, "How do you know these people?" I said "through an online community", and she seemed okay with that answer.

My significant other and I crossed over into Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, in December for a three-day visit. The Canadian official was quite friendly. It was right at the end of December, and she asked "So are you planning to stay for New Year's?" We said no because we were planning to cross back into the U.S. on New Year's Eve Day, and she said, "Aww... that sucks! Being in Canada for New Year's is fun!" or something along those lines. When she gave us our passports back, she just said, "Have fun!"

Those are probably the most interesting border-crossing stories I have. I used to get pretty nervous about crossing the border, but now I think I handle them just fine. :)
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 24, 2013, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on January 24, 2013, 01:38:20 PM
she asked us, "How do you know these people?" I said "through an online community", and she seemed okay with that answer.

this seems to be getting more and more accepted, because nowadays everyone has Facebook, and "online community" isn't associated solely with dorks, nerds, dweebs, freaks, geeks, Al Qaeda operatives, etc.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: elsmere241 on January 24, 2013, 06:01:20 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 24, 2013, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on January 24, 2013, 01:38:20 PM
she asked us, "How do you know these people?" I said "through an online community", and she seemed okay with that answer.

this seems to be getting more and more accepted, because nowadays everyone has Facebook, and "online community" isn't associated solely with dorks, nerds, dweebs, freaks, geeks, Al Qaeda operatives, etc.

Hey, I met my wife online back in 2004.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on January 24, 2013, 06:15:51 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 24, 2013, 06:01:20 PM

Hey, I met my wife online back in 2004.

did you ever have any trouble explaining that to the border patrol?

Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: elsmere241 on January 24, 2013, 08:39:56 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 24, 2013, 06:15:51 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 24, 2013, 06:01:20 PM

Hey, I met my wife online back in 2004.

did you ever have any trouble explaining that to the border patrol?



Not yet.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on January 28, 2013, 12:03:45 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 24, 2013, 08:39:56 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 24, 2013, 06:15:51 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 24, 2013, 06:01:20 PM

Hey, I met my wife online back in 2004.

did you ever have any trouble explaining that to the border patrol?



Not yet.

I met my wife online back in 2003.  It took a little explaining to my parents, but no border agent has ever asked how I met my wife.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: hbelkins on February 09, 2013, 09:26:18 PM
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/02/electronics-border-seizures/?cid=co5746764

This is why it's likely I will never, ever get to visit Canada. Usually when I'm traveling I have a laptop, a netbook, an iPad, an iPhone, my work cellphone, an iPod Touch, an iPod classic, at least two digital cameras, a video camera and a radar detector. The border patrol would have a field day with me.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 10, 2013, 11:13:44 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2013, 09:26:18 PMhttp://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/02/electronics-border-seizures/?cid=co5746764

This is why it's likely I will never, ever get to visit Canada. Usually when I'm traveling I have a laptop, a netbook, an iPad, an iPhone, my work cellphone, an iPod Touch, an iPod classic, at least two digital cameras, a video camera and a radar detector. The border patrol would have a field day with me.

I don't think that is a very good reason to avoid going to Canada or, for that matter, travelling internationally in general.  The article says that just 6,500 people had their electronic gear taken for inspection while entering the US "between 2008 and 2010."  The article is unclear whether those years are included, which gives an annual figure ranging from approximately 2,200 (assuming 2008, 2009, and 2010 are included) to 6,500 (assuming just 2009 is included).  Using the higher figure, that is just 1/16 the number of people chosen for personal inspection (anything from a frisk up to full body cavity search and monitored bowel movements; about 102,000 annually), which in turn is a fairly small fraction of those selected for secondary inspection.  And it sounds like the inspections, at least for now, are narrowly targeted.  From the DHS perspective, staff resource is an issue--CBP (which actually handles the inspections of electronic gear; the Border Patrol is not involved) is not top-heavy with IT-trained people, and it takes a fair amount of man-hours to comb through the hundreds of gigabytes people may have on their personal devices.

6,500 people is a very small fraction of the 90 million people who cross the Canadian border annually, not to mention the 350 million people (per Wikipedia) who cross the Mexican border annually, or arrivals at international airports.

If you are really worried about CBP sniffing through your electronic stuff, just use DynDNS and a VPN server program on your home computer to maintain access to the sensitive stuff (which, for the ordinary person, is likely to be things like video or DVD rips whose presence on a storage device cannot be accounted for within the law).  If it crosses the border via VPN tunnel over a fiber-optic line rather than on a mass storage device, it won't be inspected.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: SP Cook on February 10, 2013, 12:45:52 PM
For all of the Constitutional scholars, border crossings have no 4th Adm. protections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception)

Anyway, I have crossed the border at both the tunnel and bridge in Detroit, by air at Toronto and Montreal, at Niagara Falls by car and on foot, at the end of I-81, and by sea at the since closed Portland - Yarmouth ferry.  The last one was the only time I had an issue.  I was just roadgeeking, traveling for no real reason by myself and told the Canadian border cop that (no reservations, no destination, etc).  He sent me over to the search line, where another border cop searched the car for about 20 minutes.  Nothing to find, nothing found.  Not a big issue.  Didn't take the car appart or anything.

When I travel with anything valuable, I take a letter from my insurance agent (why not) that says he has physically seen me with the item prior to the trip, so I don't get hit with a duty claim. 



Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on February 10, 2013, 01:07:14 PM
For me it's not even search - just the loss of freedom (I consider my devices to be 100% mine and under my control) and inability to go without my laptop for any length of time without going crazy.

There's still no text in the 4th Amendment that mentions borders - it's worth noting that I don't believe that court rulings should be made on precedent (or anything else other than the law as exactly written, for that matter).  Yes, I know this view is in contrary to every lawyer and judge on the planet, and also that this view is a bit hypocritical because I've exploited precedent in the past.

Oh look, new avatar!  :police:
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kkt on February 10, 2013, 07:31:38 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 10, 2013, 01:07:14 PM
There's still no text in the 4th Amendment that mentions borders - it's worth noting that I don't believe that court rulings should be made on precedent (or anything else other than the law as exactly written, for that matter).  Yes, I know this view is in contrary to every lawyer and judge on the planet, and also that this view is a bit hypocritical because I've exploited precedent in the past.

4th Amendment:
Quote
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and
no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.

I'm not sure how you'd define "reasonable" if not by referring to precedent.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on February 10, 2013, 07:38:01 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2013, 09:26:18 PM
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/02/electronics-border-seizures/?cid=co5746764

This is why it's likely I will never, ever get to visit Canada. Usually when I'm traveling I have a laptop, a netbook, an iPad, an iPhone, my work cellphone, an iPod Touch, an iPod classic, at least two digital cameras, a video camera and a radar detector. The border patrol would have a field day with me.

You make me happy that I am not afraid of the border.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 10, 2013, 08:03:31 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 10, 2013, 07:31:38 PM4th Amendment:

QuoteThe right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I'm not sure how you'd define "reasonable" if not by referring to precedent.

I made a point very similar to this upthread, noting that the Constitution as written (including the Fourth Amendment) in effect passed through a pre-existing legal convention of warrantless search at the border, this convention being universal internationally.  (In Journal of a Voyage to Lisbon, published in 1755, the English novelist Henry Fielding complained about Portuguese customs officers in essentially the same terms people in this thread have been complaining about US and Canadian customs officers.)

The argument has previously been made that the Constitution should not be interpreted as having a carve-out for search at the border which it does not explicitly specify.  I have replied to this argument by saying that it is untenable--the Constitution was not created in a vacuum; it was understood that English common law and existing statute law would carry through unchanged except in isolated specific instances of conflict (as has happened in other countries which have adopted new constitutions on top of pre-existing bodies of statute law).

But even if it were tenable to treat the Constitution as newly born into a legal vacuum, the fact still remains that the Constitution empowers Article III courts to interpret it, and if they choose to interpret it as having a border search exception (as indeed they do), then appeal to a higher authority is not possible.

In any case, my experience has been that secondary inspection of any kind is very rare.  I have never been subjected to it, nor has anyone in my immediate family.  I'd say a majority of the people who have commented in this thread have been, but this is the classic example of an unrepresentative sample, and in most cases the secondary inspections described have been traceable to a trigger that is easy to avoid (showing up at the border station with an alcoholic hangover, being overly specific as to purpose of the visit, looking hinky while discussing a niche hobby, etc.).
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on February 10, 2013, 08:44:31 PM
The opinions on this forum regarding border crossings generally ranges from "it's not that big of a deal", to "it's a pain in the ass, but not that big of a deal"

About 300,000 people cross between US and Canada everyday, the vast majority without incident.  To think that not one of those 300,000 people who cross everyday are carrying various electronic devices is downright laughable.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/07/f-canada-us-border-by-the-numbers.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/07/f-canada-us-border-by-the-numbers.html)
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on February 10, 2013, 08:56:41 PM
Yeah, I've gotten a couple of pretty good searches in secondary, and not once has the fact that I had a laptop and camera and phone with me even come up- with me they've always been looking for drugs/alcohol. Now that I'm out of college, of legal drinking age, have and can easily prove I have a steady paying job, and am probably nerdier looking, we'll see if the focus of their searches changes now that I'm going to start going to Canada with regularity again.

Actually, if anything I could see being scrutinized for my electronic devices now- I don't look like the type that would be carrying a firearm or drugs, I'm fairly clean cut...appearance wise if I look suspicious it's because I look like I could be smuggling intellectual property across the border.

I will say that living in Arizona and having to put up with internal checkpoints (you want to have a nice talk about unconstitutionality....I have no idea why those things are legal) has helped my confidence level when dealing with authority in the car, so I'd bet I'm even less likely to get secondary than I was prior anyway.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 10, 2013, 10:37:02 PM
Quote from: corco on February 10, 2013, 08:56:41 PMActually, if anything I could see being scrutinized for my electronic devices now- I don't look like the type that would be carrying a firearm or drugs, I'm fairly clean cut...appearance wise if I look suspicious it's because I look like I could be smuggling intellectual property across the border.

I don't think the likelihood has changed.  Notwithstanding the fact that DHS is defending suspicionless searches of electronic devices, they are doing so few of them that I think the searches are in fact targeted and based on articulable suspicion--they just don't want to say what the suspicion is.  And in spite of all the talk about terrorist plans (as if there are actually blueprints or CAD drawings for a terrorist attack that can be carried around, like plans for a bank job in a 1970's heist film), I think the real focus of laptop searches is child pornography.  The real way to jack up your chances of getting hauled into secondary and having your devices looked at is to get on the NAMBLA mailing list.

QuoteI will say that living in Arizona and having to put up with internal checkpoints (you want to have a nice talk about unconstitutionality....I have no idea why those things are legal) has helped my confidence level when dealing with authority in the car, so I'd bet I'm even less likely to get secondary than I was prior anyway.

I think they rely on two things:  federal statutes providing for suspicionless search within 100 miles of the border, and US v. Martinez-Fuerte (http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/428/543/case.html).  There is an interesting summary of the jurisprudence here:

http://www.pickyourbattles.net/2012/10/update-on-border-patrol-lawsuit.html

Apparently they are not allowed to detain you for longer than two minutes, and are allowed to ask immigration-related questions only, which you have the option of not answering, and they cannot use your refusal to answer to build suspicion for further search.  So if you want to buck them, and have the time and resource to handle the aggravation that will follow, you can--but since any sanctions that may be applied to them for overreaching their authority will be backloaded and will not fall on the officers involved personally, it'd be one hell of a ride for the sake of principle.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: oscar on February 10, 2013, 11:04:42 PM
Quote from: J N WinklerI don't think that is a very good reason to avoid going to Canada or, for that matter, travelling internationally in general.  The article says that just 6,500 people had their electronic gear taken for inspection while entering the US "between 2008 and 2010."  The article is unclear whether those years are included, which gives an annual figure ranging from approximately 2,200 (assuming 2008, 2009, and 2010 are included) to 6,500 (assuming just 2009 is included).  Using the higher figure, that is just 1/16 the number of people chosen for personal inspection (anything from a frisk up to full body cavity search and monitored bowel movements; about 102,000 annually), which in turn is a fairly small fraction of those selected for secondary inspection.  And it sounds like the inspections, at least for now, are narrowly targeted.  From the DHS perspective, staff resource is an issue--CBP (which actually handles the inspections of electronic gear; the Border Patrol is not involved) is not top-heavy with IT-trained people, and it takes a fair amount of man-hours to comb through the hundreds of gigabytes people may have on their personal devices.

That said, having been subjected twice to inspections of my electronic devices by U.S. Customs (one last month, the other in 2008) makes me wonder about the real frequency of such searches, or the real criteria for selecting people for such searches.

The part about the limited IT capabilities of CBP does make me wonder about how thoroughly they inspect electronic devices.  On one of my inspections, the agents made a point of separating me from my devices, so I don't know what they did with them, but since they never asked for the password for my laptop, maybe they were just bluffing about doing an electronics inspection.   (The vehicle search, though, was definitely not a bluff, considering how long it took for me to put everything in my car back in order.)  The second time I was subject to an electronics inspection, CBP did demand my system password, but if they poked around my files, either they didn't try to look at the ones that were password-protected, or they were able to break the passwords without my help (the password protection for those files is medium-strength at best, I just get by with what WordPerfect and Excel make available).
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on February 11, 2013, 09:33:08 AM
^ That sucks that that happened to you.  Just to for transparency, what was the net result of having your devices searched?  Just inconvenience correct?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 11, 2013, 10:02:11 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 10, 2013, 10:37:02 PM
suspicionless search within 100 miles of the border
I've seen border patrol officers manning the agricultural checkpoint on I-40 in Needles.

if that's within 100 miles of the US-Mexico border, then I am shooting for one Hell of a speeding ticket.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kkt on February 11, 2013, 12:27:37 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 11, 2013, 10:02:11 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 10, 2013, 10:37:02 PM
suspicionless search within 100 miles of the border
I've seen border patrol officers manning the agricultural checkpoint on I-40 in Needles.

Really?  I thought they used California agricultural inspection agents.  When did that change?  I didn't think the Border Patrol knew how to identify plants.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 11, 2013, 12:32:15 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 11, 2013, 12:27:37 PM

Really?  I thought they used California agricultural inspection agents.  When did that change?  I didn't think the Border Patrol knew how to identify plants.

there were aggies as well, but when we passed by (going the other way on I-40), one person was waved out of the aggie point and immediately pulled over by a waiting border patrol car.

if they're not officially manning the station, they sure are running plates.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 11, 2013, 12:51:45 PM
My theory is that the Border Patrol is using the agricultural checkpoints to develop suspicion that they can then use to justify Terry stops.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 11, 2013, 12:58:34 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 11, 2013, 12:51:45 PM
My theory is that the Border Patrol is using the agricultural checkpoints to develop suspicion that they can then use to justify Terry stops.

since when are they allowed to do anything in an official capacity, further than 100 miles away from an international border?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on February 11, 2013, 01:13:00 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 10, 2013, 08:03:31 PM
I made a point very similar to this upthread, noting that the Constitution as written (including the Fourth Amendment) in effect passed through a pre-existing legal convention of warrantless search at the border, this convention being universal internationally.
I was always taught that the Constitution was a "reboot" of the federal government (the same way Hollywood can "reboot" Batman and James Bond) because the Articles of Confederation were so bad.

QuoteBut even if it were tenable to treat the Constitution as newly born into a legal vacuum, the fact still remains that the Constitution empowers Article III courts to interpret it, and if they choose to interpret it as having a border search exception (as indeed they do), then appeal to a higher authority is not possible.
I tend to take a much more limited view of "interpreting" the Constitution than most, I admit.  It's worth noting that the modern role of the Supreme Court was invented by... the Supreme Court.

Quotelooking hinky while discussing a niche hobby, etc.).
Kinda hard not to if customs decides to pry.  Doesn't help that my first time interacting with customs was on a trip with no purpose other than to meet AsphaltPlanet and clinch roads in Montreal, with my drive to/from Montreal being a hair longer than my time in Montreal.  Other than roadmeets, I avoid "pure" roadgeeking trips into Canada, though I hope to be able to clinch more Canadian highways in the future by intermixing in sight-seeing.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 11, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 11, 2013, 12:58:34 PMsince when are they allowed to do anything in an official capacity, further than 100 miles away from an international border?

AIUI, their jurisdiction is limited by function (enforcing immigration laws), not by geography.  The 100-mile zone delimits their ability to question without suspicion, but they can still take action outside that zone as long as someone else (e.g. a California agricultural inspector) develops that suspicion for them.  It is comparable to some police departments finding illegal immigrants as part of a criminal investigation and then handing them over to ICE to be dealt with.

Quote from: deanej on February 11, 2013, 01:13:00 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 10, 2013, 08:03:31 PMI made a point very similar to this upthread, noting that the Constitution as written (including the Fourth Amendment) in effect passed through a pre-existing legal convention of warrantless search at the border, this convention being universal internationally.

I was always taught that the Constitution was a "reboot" of the federal government (the same way Hollywood can "reboot" Batman and James Bond) because the Articles of Confederation were so bad.

I was taught the same thing, but the Constitution was actually a reboot of the Articles of Confederation only, not the whole body of statute law and judicial precedent at either the state or national level, for which the original enabling devices were the colonial charters and the Articles of Confederation.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 11, 2013, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 11, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
AIUI, their jurisdiction is limited by function (enforcing immigration laws), not by geography.  The 100-mile zone delimits their ability to question without suspicion, but they can still take action outside that zone as long as someone else (e.g. a California agricultural inspector) develops that suspicion for them.  It is comparable to some police departments finding illegal immigrants as part of a criminal investigation and then handing them over to ICE to be dealt with.

how does the California agricultural inspector develop suspicion?  all the aggies do is ask if I have various raw fruits/meats/etc - unless I volunteer "I am in this country illegally", out of the blue, they will not get suspicious about my status.

bear in mind, the border patrol vehicle was already parked and ready to go at Needles; it's not like the aggies detained someone for several hours waiting for CBP to show up! 
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: oscar on February 11, 2013, 11:03:53 PM
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on February 11, 2013, 09:33:08 AM
^ That sucks that that happened to you.  Just to for transparency, what was the net result of having your devices searched?  Just inconvenience correct?

Right.  As I mentioned upthread, I'm not sure CBP took a close look at the data on my devices. 

CBP's Canadian counterparts searched my electronic devices on two of my many crossings into Canada.  (Same outcome, just hassle and a half-hour or less delay.)  So this isn't just about CBP. 
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 11, 2013, 11:40:03 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 11, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 11, 2013, 12:58:34 PMsince when are they allowed to do anything in an official capacity, further than 100 miles away from an international border?

AIUI, their jurisdiction is limited by function (enforcing immigration laws), not by geography.  The 100-mile zone delimits their ability to question without suspicion, but they can still take action outside that zone as long as someone else (e.g. a California agricultural inspector) develops that suspicion for them.  It is comparable to some police departments finding illegal immigrants as part of a criminal investigation and then handing them over to ICE to be dealt with.

I have observed U.S. Border Patrol cars at Greyhound bus stations in the District of Columbia and Maryland (not recently, during the George W. Bush Administration).  But rather far from the land borders with Canada and Mexico.

I presume they were checking for undocumented aliens riding the buses.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on February 12, 2013, 12:18:25 AM
Quoteall the aggies do is ask if I have various raw fruits/meats/etc - unless I volunteer "I am in this country illegally", out of the blue, they will not get suspicious about my status.

I've had the aggies ask me where I'm coming/going. I crossed in from Arizona on California 62 a few weeks ago when I was moving to Montana, and I'd put my studded snow tires on since the weather was supposed to be bad on the way up, and the aggie asked several questions (veiled in legitimate curiosity) about why I had studded snow tires on my car, which was fun to explain since Tucson -> Deer Lodge via Needles isn't really a route that makes sense (I drove up again in a Uhaul the following week and didn't want to go the same way twice).

I bet if you look Mexican they have a whole extra set of questions.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 12, 2013, 09:59:01 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 11, 2013, 11:40:03 PM

I have observed U.S. Border Patrol cars at Greyhound bus stations in the District of Columbia and Maryland (not recently, during the George W. Bush Administration).  But rather far from the land borders with Canada and Mexico.

I presume they were checking for undocumented aliens riding the buses.

I believe that, along with the "100 miles from any land border", there is a parallel clause of "50 miles from any sea port".  In this case, most of Chesapeake Bay counts.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 12, 2013, 10:42:18 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 12, 2013, 09:59:01 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 11, 2013, 11:40:03 PM

I have observed U.S. Border Patrol cars at Greyhound bus stations in the District of Columbia and Maryland (not recently, during the George W. Bush Administration).  But rather far from the land borders with Canada and Mexico.

I presume they were checking for undocumented aliens riding the buses.

I believe that, along with the "100 miles from any land border", there is a parallel clause of "50 miles from any sea port".  In this case, most of Chesapeake Bay counts.

As I understand it, border protection off of the Atlantic, Pacific and Gulf coasts (and, I believe, the Great Lakes) is the responsibility of the Border Patrol's sister agency, the Coast Guard.

But either way, anyone that gets caught by the Border Patrol at a bus station in Maryland has only themselves to blame, since I don't think anyone is obligated to answer their questions at "inland" locations.

Or could it be that the Border Patrol agents are looking for persons that appear to be Latin American? 

Sounds like profiling to me!
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 12, 2013, 11:00:42 AM
These conversations with agricultural inspectors sound much longer than any I have ever had.  The longest was on I-80 near Truckee when I was returning to Sacramento, having taken a scenic drive on Calif. 70 without once leaving California.  "Where did you come from?"  "Sacramento."  "Pardon?"  "Sacramento."  "Say again?"  "SACRAMENTO."  Eventually he asked me to open my trunk, looked in, found nothing whatever of interest, and eventually handed me a worthless piece of yellow paper which looked like it was supposed to act as evidence of prior inspection if I ever had to route through an agricultural inspection station without having previously left California, only there was no apparent reason for me to believe I wouldn't be inspected again anyway.

I hate agricultural inspection stations.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 12, 2013, 11:13:08 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 12, 2013, 10:42:18 AMBut either way, anyone that gets caught by the Border Patrol at a bus station in Maryland has only themselves to blame, since I don't think anyone is obligated to answer their questions at "inland" locations.

I don't think that is actually true except in cases where the interaction is being videotaped, which prevents Border Patrol officers from lying about whether the initial interview turned up facts that reasonably led to individualized suspicion.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 05:11:14 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 10, 2013, 10:37:02 PM
Quote from: corco on February 10, 2013, 08:56:41 PM
I will say that living in Arizona and having to put up with internal checkpoints (you want to have a nice talk about unconstitutionality....I have no idea why those things are legal) has helped my confidence level when dealing with authority in the car, so I'd bet I'm even less likely to get secondary than I was prior anyway.

I think they rely on two things:  federal statutes providing for suspicionless search within 100 miles of the border, and US v. Martinez-Fuerte (http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/428/543/case.html).  There is an interesting summary of the jurisprudence here:

http://www.pickyourbattles.net/2012/10/update-on-border-patrol-lawsuit.html

Apparently they are not allowed to detain you for longer than two minutes, and are allowed to ask immigration-related questions only, which you have the option of not answering, and they cannot use your refusal to answer to build suspicion for further search.  So if you want to buck them, and have the time and resource to handle the aggravation that will follow, you can--but since any sanctions that may be applied to them for overreaching their authority will be backloaded and will not fall on the officers involved personally, it'd be one hell of a ride for the sake of principle.

If you do some Google searching to read stories of people who've actually attempted to buck them, however, you'll find it's only too easy for the inspection agent to claim that a drug-sniffing dog made an "indication" toward your vehicle, and then they're free to detain you–whether or not the dog actually did any such thing.

There was a pastor a few years ago who decided to start refusing to answer the officers whenever they asked his citizenship.  Most times, they just let him through anyway.  One time, however, they broke his windows in and physically abused him.  Granted, he refused to answer the permitted question, but I still have mixed feelings about the whole checkpoint thing.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2009/04/pastor_tased_and_beaten_at_che.php (http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2009/04/pastor_tased_and_beaten_at_che.php)
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on February 12, 2013, 05:23:54 PM
I'm surprised the agricultural stations are around - they would appear to be illegal under the interstate commerce clause, which the government typically tries to claim as much power as they can under (especially since there's essentially no such thing as intrastate commerce any more).

On the electronics, I'm mostly afraid of the scenario where customs has been known to seize a laptop for a month and dissect it.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: SP Cook on February 12, 2013, 08:29:25 PM
Ag inspection stations are predicated on health.  The Commerce Clause applies to taxation.  A state cannot have tax barriers against other state's products.

I got Ag inspected, in a rental car with Cal tags coming back from Reno into California.  It was the middle of winter and no fruit flies could posibably be alive if I had any in the car once I rolled the window down.  Figured it was just some wanna-be copette. 

I have also been ag inspected going into (by the state/commonwealth) and back out of (by the USDA) both Hawaii and Puerto Rico (at the airport, of course).  These were serious inspections, you pretty much are not suppose to bring anything that ever was alive into or out of either jurisdiction.

Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on February 12, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
I'm pretty sure the commerce clause essentially says "states do not have the power to enact any regulation of any kind concerning interstate commerce".  Basically it's what prevents the states from acting like sovereign nations.  Otherwise, what prevents states from making people go through customs whenever crossing a state border as long as they don't charge import duties?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kkt on February 13, 2013, 02:17:28 AM
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
I'm pretty sure the commerce clause essentially says "states do not have the power to enact any regulation of any kind concerning interstate commerce".  Basically it's what prevents the states from acting like sovereign nations.  Otherwise, what prevents states from making people go through customs whenever crossing a state border as long as they don't charge import duties?

The interstate commerce clause empowers Congress to regulate commerce between the states and between states and foreign countries.  It doesn't mean states can't ban certain things and enforce that ban with inspection stations, it just means Congress can make laws that supersede the state on matters of interstate commerce.  Congress probably has never seen a good reason to stop agricultural inspections.  They are protecting a huge agricultural industry.  California isn't the only state that has them.  Hawaii does, I understand Florida does.  Basically, anywhere there's a large agricultural business that could be threatened by pests that thrive outside that state.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: oscar on February 13, 2013, 06:33:05 AM
Quote from: kkt on February 13, 2013, 02:17:28 AM
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
I'm pretty sure the commerce clause essentially says "states do not have the power to enact any regulation of any kind concerning interstate commerce".  Basically it's what prevents the states from acting like sovereign nations.  Otherwise, what prevents states from making people go through customs whenever crossing a state border as long as they don't charge import duties?

The interstate commerce clause empowers Congress to regulate commerce between the states and between states and foreign countries.  It doesn't mean states can't ban certain things and enforce that ban with inspection stations, it just means Congress can make laws that supersede the state on matters of interstate commerce.  Congress probably has never seen a good reason to stop agricultural inspections.  They are protecting a huge agricultural industry.  California isn't the only state that has them.  Hawaii does, I understand Florida does.  Basically, anywhere there's a large agricultural business that could be threatened by pests that thrive outside that state.

In addition to the states not being able to cross up Congress' regulation of interstate commerce, there are "dormant Commerce Clause" restrictions on what states can do w/r/t interstate commerce even where Congress hasn't spoken.  But those limits focus on unreasonable discrimination against out-of-state commerce, or unreasonable preferences for local businesses.  For example, an Illinois case where the state tried to force all truckers passing through the state to use a particular type of mud flap manufactured only in Illinois.  That law was struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court.  But ag inspections just don't raise that kind of concern. 
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: myosh_tino on February 13, 2013, 10:31:40 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 12, 2013, 11:00:42 AM
These conversations with agricultural inspectors sound much longer than any I have ever had.  The longest was on I-80 near Truckee when I was returning to Sacramento, having taken a scenic drive on Calif. 70 without once leaving California.  "Where did you come from?"  "Sacramento."  "Pardon?"  "Sacramento."  "Say again?"  "SACRAMENTO."  Eventually he asked me to open my trunk, looked in, found nothing whatever of interest, and eventually handed me a worthless piece of yellow paper which looked like it was supposed to act as evidence of prior inspection if I ever had to route through an agricultural inspection station without having previously left California, only there was no apparent reason for me to believe I wouldn't be inspected again anyway.

I hate agricultural inspection stations.
Hmmm... I suspect this happen quite a few years ago when the inspection station was located just west of the CA-89 south interchange in Truckee.  That inspection station has been moved to where the truck scales are located a couple of miles east of Truckee thus reducing the chance that someone traveling within the state of California will encounter the inspection station.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 13, 2013, 10:52:45 AM
Quote from: myosh_tino on February 13, 2013, 10:31:40 AMHmmm... I suspect this happen quite a few years ago when the inspection station was located just west of the CA-89 south interchange in Truckee.  That inspection station has been moved to where the truck scales are located a couple of miles east of Truckee thus reducing the chance that someone traveling within the state of California will encounter the inspection station.

Yes--this incident happened in September 2002, a few years before the reconstruction of I-80 from the Donner Pass westward kicked into high gear.  It is good to hear that the inspection station has been shifted from that really awkward location.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on February 13, 2013, 11:09:18 AM
Quote from: kkt on February 13, 2013, 02:17:28 AM
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
I'm pretty sure the commerce clause essentially says "states do not have the power to enact any regulation of any kind concerning interstate commerce".  Basically it's what prevents the states from acting like sovereign nations.  Otherwise, what prevents states from making people go through customs whenever crossing a state border as long as they don't charge import duties?

The interstate commerce clause empowers Congress to regulate commerce between the states and between states and foreign countries.  It doesn't mean states can't ban certain things and enforce that ban with inspection stations, it just means Congress can make laws that supersede the state on matters of interstate commerce.  Congress probably has never seen a good reason to stop agricultural inspections.  They are protecting a huge agricultural industry.  California isn't the only state that has them.  Hawaii does, I understand Florida does.  Basically, anywhere there's a large agricultural business that could be threatened by pests that thrive outside that state.

During the Dust Bowl, Los Angeles police chief James Davis sent 136 police officers to the Arizona, Nevada, and Oregon state lines; had them deputized by the respective county sheriffs; and ordered them to refuse entry to migrants with "no visible means of support".  This was called the Bum Blockade.  The LA Evening News, however, decried it as "[violating] every principle that Americans hold dear [...] the right of every citizen to go wherever he pleased".  When the blockade was challenged politically, it was upheld by Gov. Frank Merriam.  Eventually, however, the funding for the program was called into question, and it ceased.

Various counties, however, continued to apprehend people who assisted destitute relatives across the state line–based on the Indigent Act, which prohibited bringing poor people into the state.  This was then challenged by the ACLU, who brought it to the US Supreme Court; the Court ruled it unconstitutional (Edwards v California, 1941), that it violated Article 1, Section 8.  In the ruling, Chief Justice Byrnes stated that transporting people across a state line counts as commerce, and therefore any state restricting it necessarily creates "an unconstitutional barrier to interstate commerce".  The other justices were bothered by the notion that transporting a person could be considered commerce, stating instead that freedom to travel across state lines is an "implied" right of US citizens, and therefore deserves equal protection under the 14th Amendment.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on February 13, 2013, 11:15:48 AM
One thing that's interesting them is that they require all traffic to exit the main highway.  Since everyone stops at them, why not build them directly on the carriageway?  And why have them inland, where people can just go around them easily on local roads?  You'd think they'd have them at the border, just like US federal customs (since they really are nothing more than California customs).

I would think of a ban as "regulating interstate commerce".
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kkt on February 13, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 13, 2013, 11:15:48 AM
One thing that's interesting them is that they require all traffic to exit the main highway.  Since everyone stops at them, why not build them directly on the carriageway?  And why have them inland, where people can just go around them easily on local roads?  You'd think they'd have them at the border, just like US federal customs (since they really are nothing more than California customs).

The one on I-5 entering California from Oregon is directly on the freeway, and several of the California inspection stations have been moved closer to the border than they were previously.  I'm sure they figure they can't stop every single person and some will get through by accident, but how many will take some National Forest dirt road just to bring fruit into California?

It's not customs, because they don't collect import duties there.  From m-w.com under "custom", definition 2.a.: duties, tolls, or imposts imposed by the sovereign law of a country on imports or exports.

Quote
I would think of a ban as "regulating interstate commerce".

Like I tried to say, states can ban things and the ban is legal unless the U.S. Congress makes a federal law overruling it.  Just like the Federal government has the power to tax, but that doesn't mean state governments can't also tax.

I see no reason Congress would want to overturn state bans protecting their agriculture.  If California were taxing imports instead of banning produce that's likely to be infected, it would have been struck down by the courts by now.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 13, 2013, 04:18:51 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 13, 2013, 11:15:48 AMSince everyone stops at them, why not build them directly on the carriageway?

easier to close them, either temporarily or permanently
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: 1995hoo on February 13, 2013, 04:53:31 PM
Then there's one thing that states ARE explicitly allowed to regulate: alcoholic beverages. The Twenty-First Amendment provides, in pertinent part, "The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or Possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited." It's the "in violation of the laws thereof" that's the key in this respect. The Virginia ABC, for one, used to have agents spying on liquor stores in DC and Maryland watching for Virginia residents because Virginia law limited you to bringing in one gallon of liquor from outside the state. (I believe the law still uses the antiquated term "gallon" even though liquor is sold by the litre, or fraction or multiple thereof, these days.) If they saw you buy what looked like more than a gallon, they radioed ahead and had someone pull you over after you crossed the state line.

More recently the Supreme Court has held that the Dormant Commerce Clause (prohibition on discriminating against interstate commerce) does apply to Twenty-First Amendment issues–some state got sued for allowing in-state wineries to ship to in-state residents while prohibiting out-of-state wineries from doing the same. The Supreme Court reasoned that states had never been allowed to discriminate against interstate commerce before and so the Twenty-First Amendment didn't change that. Of course, the potential unintended consequence is that a state might just prohibit all such shipping. Wine-shipping laws are a crazy quilt all over the country.

I recall reading somewhere that US Customs will enforce the law of the state in which you enter the USA, although in my experience they'd never bothered because (I assume) they didn't want to bother with forms and paperwork. We brought back substantial amounts of Canadian wine and liquor on our last trip to Nova Scotia, declared all of it on the form handed out on the ferry, and the Customs inspector paid no attention to that and was more interested in our golf raingear.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: myosh_tino on February 13, 2013, 05:00:40 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2013, 10:52:45 AM
Quote from: myosh_tino on February 13, 2013, 10:31:40 AMHmmm... I suspect this happen quite a few years ago when the inspection station was located just west of the CA-89 south interchange in Truckee.  That inspection station has been moved to where the truck scales are located a couple of miles east of Truckee thus reducing the chance that someone traveling within the state of California will encounter the inspection station.

Yes--this incident happened in September 2002, a few years before the reconstruction of I-80 from the Donner Pass westward kicked into high gear.  It is good to hear that the inspection station has been shifted from that really awkward location.
Especially since it was really easy to avoid.  Just take the CA-89 South exit, go north to Donner Pass Road, make a left and rejoin I-80 in a mile or so.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: SP Cook on February 13, 2013, 07:33:28 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2013, 04:53:31 PM
Then there's one thing that states ARE explicitly allowed to regulate: alcoholic beverages.

More recently the Supreme Court has held that the Dormant Commerce Clause (prohibition on discriminating against interstate commerce) does apply to Twenty-First Amendment issues—some state got sued for allowing in-state wineries to ship to in-state residents while prohibiting out-of-state wineries from doing the same. The Supreme Court reasoned that states had never been allowed to discriminate against interstate commerce before and so the Twenty-First Amendment didn't change that. Of course, the potential unintended consequence is that a state might just prohibit all such shipping. Wine-shipping laws are a crazy quilt all over the country.

In my state the ABC responded by imposing a $500/year fee (tax) on every wine shipper.  Neutral on its face, exept that all of the wine produced here wouldn't fill a single backyard swimming pool.  Most wine shippers pay up, but more than once I have had to explain to clerks in California that West Virginia is a totally different jurisdiction than Virginia (which totally prohibits wine shipping).  I also heard a clerk one time telling a woman she could not ship "out of the country".  The woman was from New Mexico.  My 3rd grade teacher taught us all of the states and state capitals.  Third grade.

Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: 1995hoo on February 13, 2013, 08:38:29 PM
Virginia doesn't prohibit wine shipping. I've had wine shipped to my house many times. I think there may be registration requirements, however.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: thenetwork on February 14, 2013, 10:51:48 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2013, 08:38:29 PM
Virginia doesn't prohibit wine shipping. I've had wine shipped to my house many times. I think there may be registration requirements, however.

In Colorado, the wineries along I-70 will have lists that tell travelers what states they can ship wine to and which ones they can't.   One of the few weird alcohol rules left in the state.  The other major one is that all grocery stores/convenience stores are only permitted to carry beer -- and only 3.2 (near) beer. 

However, if you own multiple grocery/convenience stores in Colorado (like Safeway), only ONE of your stores can be a full-service liquor store, where you can sell full strength beer, wine spirits.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: A.J. Bertin on February 14, 2013, 12:13:10 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2013, 09:26:18 PM
This is why it's likely I will never, ever get to visit Canada. Usually when I'm traveling I have a laptop, a netbook, an iPad, an iPhone, my work cellphone, an iPod Touch, an iPod classic, at least two digital cameras, a video camera and a radar detector. The border patrol would have a field day with me.

Geez... couldn't you travel to Canada strictly for pleasure and leave some of that stuff at home? And when you're traveling, is it super necessary to have ALL those things? I can't believe that someone would choose not to visit a great country such as Canada just because they think they can't visit without bringing all that technology.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 12:26:31 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2013, 09:26:18 PM
This is why it's likely I will never, ever get to visit Canada. Usually when I'm traveling I have a laptop, a netbook, an iPad, an iPhone, my work cellphone, an iPod Touch, an iPod classic, at least two digital cameras, a video camera and a radar detector. The border patrol would have a field day with me.

good grief, what are you - an Apple salesman?? 

I thought I traveled heavy with one camera bag (SLR and lenses), laptop (sometimes), iphone, ipod, the necessary chargers and car adapters - and that's about it.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 12:31:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2013, 04:53:31 PMWe brought back substantial amounts of Canadian wine and liquor on our last trip to Nova Scotia, declared all of it on the form handed out on the ferry, and the Customs inspector paid no attention to that and was more interested in our golf raingear.

at one point, three of us brought back about 4.25 or 4.5L of tequila from Mexico*, and when they asked "how much" I just waved at the back seat and said "that much".  they didn't seem to care.

* there's a really good tequila store in Ensenada with the best selection I've ever seen
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on February 14, 2013, 01:01:12 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 13, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
The one on I-5 entering California from Oregon is directly on the freeway, and several of the California inspection stations have been moved closer to the border than they were previously.  I'm sure they figure they can't stop every single person and some will get through by accident, but how many will take some National Forest dirt road just to bring fruit into California?
On Google it shows up like a service area with a re-striping.  However, there is older imagery from before the re-striping; looks like the inspection stations were truck-only just a few years ago.

Quote
It's not customs, because they don't collect import duties there.  From m-w.com under "custom", definition 2.a.: duties, tolls, or imposts imposed by the sovereign law of a country on imports or exports.
Lets see, you have to tell them where you're coming from/going to, declare certain items, surrender prohibited goods, and can be searched.  Sure sounds like customs, even if they don't fit the exact definition.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 13, 2013, 04:18:51 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 13, 2013, 11:15:48 AMSince everyone stops at them, why not build them directly on the carriageway?

easier to close them, either temporarily or permanently
Under what circumstances are they closed?  I was under the impression they were permanent.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 01:17:04 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 14, 2013, 01:01:12 PM
Under what circumstances are they closed?  I was under the impression they were permanent.

the 80 example: the station was closed, and a new one opened at a different location.  if the booths were on the mainline, then mainline traffic would have had to have been detoured while they were removed.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kkt on February 14, 2013, 01:58:16 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 14, 2013, 01:01:12 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 13, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
The one on I-5 entering California from Oregon is directly on the freeway, and several of the California inspection stations have been moved closer to the border than they were previously.  I'm sure they figure they can't stop every single person and some will get through by accident, but how many will take some National Forest dirt road just to bring fruit into California?
On Google it shows up like a service area with a re-striping.  However, there is older imagery from before the re-striping; looks like the inspection stations were truck-only just a few years ago.

Cars have had to stop for ag inspection as far back as I remember, at least back to the late 1960s from my own memories.  My parents also remember having to stop from their childhoods.  There have been some changes, the place where the inspection occurs used to be farther south, allowing the stop to be lower down in the foothills where the highway is more likely to be out of the snow, and where it's more pleasant to work in a little booth in the winter.

Quote
Quote
It's not customs, because they don't collect import duties there.  From m-w.com under "custom", definition 2.a.: duties, tolls, or imposts imposed by the sovereign law of a country on imports or exports.
Lets see, you have to tell them where you're coming from/going to, declare certain items, surrender prohibited goods, and can be searched.  Sure sounds like customs, even if they don't fit the exact definition.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 13, 2013, 04:18:51 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 13, 2013, 11:15:48 AMSince everyone stops at them, why not build them directly on the carriageway?

easier to close them, either temporarily or permanently
Under what circumstances are they closed?  I was under the impression they were permanent.

They're pretty much always open.  Maybe they close for severe storms when they don't want the inspectors to have to drive to work?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 02:02:41 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 14, 2013, 01:58:16 PM

They're pretty much always open.  Maybe they close for severe storms when they don't want the inspectors to have to drive to work?

they were mostly closed for several years between about 2006 and 2010, due to budget shortfalls in California.  now they are almost always operational.  I have not encountered a non-operational one in several years.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on February 14, 2013, 02:56:29 PM
The Google street view imagery likely corresponds to 07 or 08, which would be that time period.  I'm surprised the booths were built like this given that they're intended to pretty much always be open.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 12:31:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2013, 04:53:31 PMWe brought back substantial amounts of Canadian wine and liquor on our last trip to Nova Scotia, declared all of it on the form handed out on the ferry, and the Customs inspector paid no attention to that and was more interested in our golf raingear.

at one point, three of us brought back about 4.25 or 4.5L of tequila from Mexico*, and when they asked "how much" I just waved at the back seat and said "that much".  they didn't seem to care.

* there's a really good tequila store in Ensenada with the best selection I've ever seen

Probably because you weren't very far over the limit.  California allows its residents to bring in up to one liter per person, so you were only over the legal limit by 500 ml total.  I'm sure it's not worth the flak for them to bother adding up the total and dumping out 500 ml (measured how?) of liquor.  For what it's worth, non-residents can bring up to 60 liters of alcohol through a California border crossing; they might also not have wanted to bother determining your residency over such a trivial amount.  They have bigger fish to fry, like this guy who was caught smuggling bologna across the border (http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/Border-Patrol-Lauds-385-Pound-Mexican-Bologna-Bust/-/9153762/6126124/-/6q3n6z/-/index.html).

(ref:  California Dept. of Alcoholic Beverage Control (http://www.abc.ca.gov/permits/importing.html))
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 03:26:59 PM
Probably because you weren't very far over the limit.  California allows its residents to bring in up to one liter per person, so you were only over the legal limit by 500 ml total.
depends on how you measure it.  the three of us were over by 1.5L, so who wants to take credit for the excess?

QuoteFor what it's worth, non-residents can bring up to 60 liters of alcohol through a California border crossing
what if I cross into Arizona, as a California resident?  how much can I bring in then?  (assume, of course, that I'll leave the excess in Arizona before returning to California!)

that said - I'd be happy to pay the duty to the feds, but the state is being awful ornery about it if all it offers is a cap with no recourse.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 03:26:59 PM
Probably because you weren't very far over the limit.  California allows its residents to bring in up to one liter per person, so you were only over the legal limit by 500 ml total.
depends on how you measure it.  the three of us were over by 1.5L, so who wants to take credit for the excess?

Oh, I didn't know you meant 4.5 liters each.  I assumed you meant total.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 03:26:59 PMFor what it's worth, non-residents can bring up to 60 liters of alcohol through a California border crossing
what if I cross into Arizona, as a California resident?  how much can I bring in then?  (assume, of course, that I'll leave the excess in Arizona before returning to California!)

I don't see any out-of-state exception in Arizona law, so I assume it's one liter no matter what.

(ref:  Arizona State Legislature (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/4/00244-02.htm&Title=4&DocType=ARS))
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 04:09:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 04:01:48 PM

Oh, I didn't know you meant 4.5 liters each.  I assumed you meant total.

I did.  4.5L total for a three-person limit of 3L is 1.5L over the limit. 

QuoteI don't see any out-of-state exception in Arizona law, so I assume it's one liter no matter what.


I'll just have to go to Mexico more often  :sombrero:
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 04:09:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
Oh, I didn't know you meant 4.5 liters each.  I assumed you meant total.
I did.  4.5L total for a three-person limit of 3L is 1.5L over the limit. 

My reasoning was that each person could claim one liter, therefore the total allowable would be three liters total.  Bringing in 4.5 liters would put the total at 1.5 liters over, or 500 ml per person.  Little was I thinking that he could just dump out the whole 1.5 liters (again, measured how? ... well, I guess it would be easy with 750-ml bottles) and leave the three of you to figure out your one liter each after the fact.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 04:09:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
I don't see any out-of-state exception in Arizona law, so I assume it's one liter no matter what.
I'll just have to go to Mexico more often  :sombrero:

Just so you know, the limits are for every 31-day period.  So I suppose you could cross once at Arizona and once at California per 31-day period.  Of course, that all assumes that the customs agent would even know that you'd brought alcohol back with you the last time you were there–and that even assumes he bothers to check your passport stamps to see when you were there last, and where you crossed the border (do the stamps even say that last part?).
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 05:06:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 04:26:58 PMSo I suppose you could cross once at Arizona and once at California per 31-day period.
that's significantly more often than I cross now.

QuoteOf course, that all assumes that the customs agent would even know that you'd brought alcohol back with you the last time you were there–and that even assumes he bothers to check your passport stamps to see when you were there last, and where you crossed the border (do the stamps even say that last part?).

I'd assume that, in their files, they record when and where I cross, and what I am bringing back.  I'm pretty sure that, in my file, I have "Nogales fiscal corridor, 750mL tequila, 1/26/2013" as the most recent entry.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 05:10:52 PM
Hmm.  I've never declared anything, except maybe back in high school before I knew itty-bitty trinkets didn't matter.  I always just make sure we're under the per-person limit for the vehicle and say I have nothing to declare.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on February 14, 2013, 05:52:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 04:26:58 PMJust so you know, the limits are for every 31-day period.  So I suppose you could cross once at Arizona and once at California per 31-day period.  Of course, that all assumes that the customs agent would even know that you'd brought alcohol back with you the last time you were there–and that even assumes he bothers to check your passport stamps to see when you were there last, and where you crossed the border (do the stamps even say that last part?).

They do, but I don't know if a US citizen is stamped at a land port of entry even when dutiable goods are declared.  The duty officer would be relying on a computerized record of entries and exits (produced, I would guess, by scanning the MRZ on a passport, green card, or passport card).  Presumably declarations of dutiable goods and records of payment collected in respect of same would be linked to the entry record.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 05:56:30 PM
Just goes to show, I'd never really thought about what the guys actually do with our passports after they ask for them.  I guess I'm just always preoccupied with.....OK, I'll be honest, license plate spotting.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 06:46:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 05:56:30 PM
Just goes to show, I'd never really thought about what the guys actually do with our passports after they ask for them.  I guess I'm just always preoccupied with.....OK, I'll be honest, license plate spotting.

at the border?  usually when I'm there, I'll have scanned all the neighboring vehicles after 30 seconds, and the remaining 5 hours is "yep, there's that Toyota".
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Duke87 on February 14, 2013, 08:03:05 PM
My one experience with the Californian Border Patrol thus far was on I-15 last summer, at about 5 or 6 in the evening on a Monday. There was a lot of traffic and the guys were just standing there waving everyone through.

I'll be dealing with them again come April, probably on I-8.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 08:07:54 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 14, 2013, 08:03:05 PM
My one experience with the Californian Border Patrol thus far was on I-15 last summer, at about 5 or 6 in the evening on a Monday. There was a lot of traffic and the guys were just standing there waving everyone through.


I don't think I've ever actually seen the I-15 checkpoint active.  the I-5, maybe a handful of times in all the years I've been driving that road regularly.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: citrus on February 14, 2013, 08:38:04 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 08:07:54 PM
I don't think I've ever actually seen the I-15 checkpoint active.  the I-5, maybe a handful of times in all the years I've been driving that road regularly.

I've been through it active exactly once - around 8am on a weekday. Caused 10-15 minute delays.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 08:53:22 PM
Quote from: citrus on February 14, 2013, 08:38:04 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 08:07:54 PM
I don't think I've ever actually seen the I-15 checkpoint active.  the I-5, maybe a handful of times in all the years I've been driving that road regularly.

I've been through it active exactly once - around 8am on a weekday. Caused 10-15 minute delays.

one time, I-5 resulted in a delay of an hour.  was about 9pm on a Tuesday evening.

I've always wondered what the rationale is for activating the checkpoint on those two busy freeways.  then again, I wonder what the rationale is for the Border Patrol to be running radar just south of the I-15 checkpoint.  strange things happen sometimes.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on February 15, 2013, 12:01:11 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 14, 2013, 06:46:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2013, 05:56:30 PM
Just goes to show, I'd never really thought about what the guys actually do with our passports after they ask for them.  I guess I'm just always preoccupied with.....OK, I'll be honest, license plate spotting.

at the border?  usually when I'm there, I'll have scanned all the neighboring vehicles after 30 seconds, and the remaining 5 hours is "yep, there's that Toyota".

Well, when I'm actually at the point where the officer has my passport, then I have the opportunity to see the cars that were pulled over for secondary inspection, plus any that pull away from the other gates while I'm stopped.  Between that and scoping out the sniffer dogs, checking the follower vehicle in the mirror, preparing to call my folks to say we're back in the States, etc., etc.–I find little room in my brain for wondering what the officer is actually doing.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: hbelkins on February 15, 2013, 03:57:17 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on February 13, 2013, 07:33:28 PMMost wine shippers pay up, but more than once I have had to explain to clerks in California that West Virginia is a totally different jurisdiction than Virginia (which totally prohibits wine shipping).  I also heard a clerk one time telling a woman she could not ship "out of the country".  The woman was from New Mexico.  My 3rd grade teacher taught us all of the states and state capitals.  Third grade.

That's rich, especially since I have heard tales before of people thinking New Mexico was part of Mexico.

Quote from: A.J. Bertin on February 14, 2013, 12:13:10 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2013, 09:26:18 PM
This is why it's likely I will never, ever get to visit Canada. Usually when I'm traveling I have a laptop, a netbook, an iPad, an iPhone, my work cellphone, an iPod Touch, an iPod classic, at least two digital cameras, a video camera and a radar detector. The border patrol would have a field day with me.

Geez... couldn't you travel to Canada strictly for pleasure and leave some of that stuff at home? And when you're traveling, is it super necessary to have ALL those things? I can't believe that someone would choose not to visit a great country such as Canada just because they think they can't visit without bringing all that technology.

I know you're a self-described Luddite  :-D but when I travel, I want to be able to shoot road videos and take pictures. I use the iPad for tracking my travels with EveryTrail, the iPods for listening to music and podcasts when I'm driving, and then I have a personal phone and also a work cell phone that I'm expected to have 24/7. I use the laptop to download my photos and videos off the cameras as well as staying in touch online.

So when traveling for pleasure, having my electronic devices with me IS part of the pleasure.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on February 16, 2013, 12:49:15 PM
The two phones and iPod shouldn't be a problem; not sure if having both the iPad and laptop would be or not.  The multiple cameras might raise eyebrows if they asked though.  Might be possible to do what Oscar does with the radar detector and store it in a hidden compartment?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on February 16, 2013, 07:43:56 PM
I had an interesting one when I crossed today into Canada on US/BC 95- I decided I would take the opposite approach to normal and give as little information as possible:

CBSA: Can you roll your back window down?
Me: It doesn't work.
CBSA: What is the purpose of your trip?
Me: Sightseeing.
CBSA: Where are you headed?
Me: Alberta.
CBSA: When were you last in Canada?
Me: 2008
CBSA: What do you do for a living?
Me: Work for [where I work]
CBSA: What is that?
Me: [What it is]
(A couple questions relating to whether I was carrying anything illegal, all answered with "No")
CBSA: So, if you're from Montana and you're going to Alberta why didn't you cross in Roosville or Coutts?
Me: I was in Spokane last night.
CBSA: Spokane?
Me: Yeah, I was in Spokane last night and now I'm going to Alberta.
CBSA: OK, pull into the first inspection bay on the left and go into the office.

So I was kind of bummed about that, but since I couldn't roll my window down I guess that was fair.

What confused me though was I went in, the lady in the office walked back to the guy at the window, I heard the lady laugh, and then about a minute later she came out with my passport and said "Welcome to Canada!" and that was that- no inspection took place- they didn't even walk out to my car.

Any idea what that could have been about? I've heard they run credit checks now sometimes- I'm guessing that might have been what was up.

Overall that's a strategy I'll probably continue to use- the fewer words I use the less nervous I get, and I get nervous in those types of situations. Fast crossing too- there was no line and the customs interview took about 45 seconds and then I just had to wait in the office for about two minutes- I'm sure that's the fastest I've ever gotten through the border in either direction.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on February 16, 2013, 08:05:29 PM
The last time I crossed when I was asked for the purpose of my trip I responded "that I was in search of warm weather".  That worked OK.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: realjd on February 17, 2013, 03:32:41 PM
Re: electronics
Traveling overseas, I usually take multiple cell phones (my US iPhone, an unlocked older iPhone for prepaid SIM cards), an ipad, a Kindle, a laptop, a point and shoot camera, and my DSLR. My wife carries the same load minus the cameras. Quantity of electronic devices is not suspicious. I go overseas multiple times a year and have never been searched. From what I understand, when they do take a laptop, they basically do a search for all the .jpg pictures looking for child porn. Same with cameras. Those kind of searches are more commonly performed on people returning from places known for sex tourism like Thailand. The case mentioned in Wired where the confiscated the man's computer was due to the images they found. He was a professor studying modern Syrian culture (or something like that) and had a number of Hezbollah pictures which raised red flags.

Re: border patrol inland
Are you sure they were US Border Patrol? More likely they were CBP, a similarly named but completely different agency. USBP patrols the borders, CBP handles airports and land border checkpoints, as well as immigration stings nationwide. USBP keeps people out from the physical borders while CBP deals with immigrants already here. They're similarly named but serve different roles. An easy way to tell is that USBP uses green striped cars and green uniforms while CBP uses blue striped cars and blue uniforms.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on February 17, 2013, 07:16:44 PM
QuoteAn easy way to tell is that USBP uses green striped cars and green uniforms

Yep, definitely the border patrol. The border patrol usually drives a Tahoe/Suburban/F-350/Econoline while CBP drives Crown Vics. Border patrol does the checkpoints, and then you'd see CBP driving around randomly sometimes. You'll see CBP cars parked at the interior checkpoints usually, but there's usually one CBP car for every 10 USBP cars, and it's definitely USBP asking the questions. I think CBP only gets involved if there's a secondary inspection. 

It's USBP at the California ag checkpoints too, usually.

USBP does all the internal monitoring in border regions from what I've seen- for instance, one followed me all the way down to Sasabe AZ from Three Points AZ, even though I naturally fluctuated between speed limit and 3 or so below with hopes that he'd pass me. Then you'll see USBP randomly stationed at roads south of Tucson all the time. CBP...eh, you see them occasionally, but it's pretty rare.

Yeah, if you're really inland it's CBP- but you have to get outside of that 100 mile buffer for that to happen.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Interstatefan78 on February 18, 2013, 09:57:00 PM
For me it should be Rainbow Bridge since both US and Canadian border agents don't search incoming cars for produce, but From what I heard on those who used the Queenston-Lewiston Bridge (I-190/ON-405) was that both US and Canadian border agents will search cars carrying produce since trucks carry produce into both US and Canada in the Buffalo,NY/ Niagara Falls & Fort Eire, ON area   
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: mgk920 on February 18, 2013, 11:45:36 PM
One thought regarding the propriety of the state AG inspection stations - the second paragraph of Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution alludes to state inspection laws, assuming that they already exist and are proper, and provides for their enforcement.

Mike.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: thenetwork on February 19, 2013, 12:28:09 PM
One of my favorite US/CAN crossings used to be the Whirlpool Bridge in Niagara Falls.  It was one of the easiest, simplest crossings between the two countries, and because it was off the beaten path, it was pretty much the crossing for locals.  It was also the creepiest crossing as you share a crossing with a rail line (located above the roadway on the upper deck of the bridge), which can rattle your nerves (literally) when a train is crossing at the same time.

In between 9/11 and the Passport era, it pretty much became the locals crossing as by that time, you needed one of those "NEXUS commuter passes" to even be allowed to use the bridge crossing.

Title: MOVED: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Alps on February 19, 2013, 07:29:28 PM
Discussion of radar detectors has been moved to Off-Topic (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=9.0).

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8802.0
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: mgk920 on March 09, 2013, 12:24:31 PM
Quote from: realjd on February 17, 2013, 03:32:41 PM
Re: electronics
Traveling overseas, I usually take multiple cell phones (my US iPhone, an unlocked older iPhone for prepaid SIM cards), an ipad, a Kindle, a laptop, a point and shoot camera, and my DSLR. My wife carries the same load minus the cameras. Quantity of electronic devices is not suspicious. I go overseas multiple times a year and have never been searched. From what I understand, when they do take a laptop, they basically do a search for all the .jpg pictures looking for child porn. Same with cameras. Those kind of searches are more commonly performed on people returning from places known for sex tourism like Thailand. The case mentioned in Wired where the confiscated the man's computer was due to the images they found. He was a professor studying modern Syrian culture (or something like that) and had a number of Hezbollah pictures which raised red flags.

A related news item here, the US Federal Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit, just ruled on a case of searching the hard drives of electronic stuff at the border.  I'm expecting this to be appealed to the Supremes.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/8/court-limits-feds-ability-search-laptops-border/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS

Mike
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Duke87 on March 09, 2013, 06:06:23 PM
Yes, it will be appealed to the supreme court. And the suspicionless searches of course won't stop in the meantime.

Tough to predict how the supreme court will rule... it would be a departure from precedent to uphold the ninth circuit decision, but as the ninth circuit argues, justification for that departure does exist.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on March 10, 2013, 12:05:32 PM
This is why I hate precedent.  It allows one to eat away at the original law.  For example, consider if the law was a line in the ground.  The first case to arise under it leads to the ruling "we'll move the line a little to accommodate this case since we believe it fits the spirit of the law".  Then the next case says "we'll move the line a little farther to accommodate this case since we believe it fits the spirit of the last case".  And so on.  Suddenly, you find that the line is where nobody ever intended it to be, the people who benefit are laughing manically (like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYeL4Ch0UiY)), and everyone else is screwed.  While it's a nice idea (to keep rulings consistent), it has terrible consequences.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on August 31, 2013, 01:17:20 AM
Sorry to necro, but this is a good enough story that even the guy who did a thorough secondary on me said "now you have a story!"

The people involved were very polite, very professional, and I enjoyed working with them. If I knew every secondary would go like this, I would have no problem being secondaried every time I crossed the border.

I deserved the secondary too, because I had no good story for why I was crossing the border. I definitely raised the flags, so I got what would be expected.

I pulled into the Coutts crossing tonight (I-15) on my way up to Canada today. I'd stopped in Great Falls to pick up a rental car, a new Hyundai Sonata with Washington plates.

I got to the border, and the lady asked the typical questions. I told her I was going to Lethbridge tonight, then on up to Edmonton. She asked why I had a car with Washington plates if I was from Montana. I explained it was a rental and she asked why I rented, to which I answered "better gas mileage, newer car." She asked what I was going to be doing in Edmonton, and I had no good answer because I hadn't really thought about it. I basically  said "I...uh...will probably go up the long way, taking either 22 or 36 and then ...uh...I dunno...maybe go to a museum or see a band or something. I haven't really thought about it" which is a totally honest answer, but not acceptable for that question and I knew it as I was saying it. She asked where I was staying in Lethbridge tonight and then where I was staying in Calgary [sic] tomorrow. She then started probing about my trip to Canada in February and wanted to make sure I didn't know anybody in Canada. I then got sent over to secondary.

I get nervous in these situations, to the point that I start visibly shaking, so that doesn't help things. The officer there asked a lot of the same questions, and said "she said you knew route numbers...have you researched this out or what?" and looked through my trunk, which just had one suitcase in it.  He did a non-invasive search of my suitcase but saw my laptop charger. He asked if I had a laptop, to which I replied "yes, it's in a bag in the front." He opened the bag which also had my hotel reservations for the next couple nights, and looked at them very carefully. He then explained that in Canada, a laptop search is like a suitcase search and is warranted and politely asked if he would find anything treasonous, related to organized crime, or any child porn. Obviously I didn't have any of that, so I said no and he opened up the laptop, set it on the roof of my car, and turned it on. He asked again if he might find anything weird, and I said "you'll probably find some road sign pictures and maybe some info related to my route" and he said "I'm looking for organized crime related stuff." He was facing me, so I couldn't see what he was doing. He asked more about my previous trip to Canada, and said "so you're just a guy who likes to travel, huh?" and I said "yep." He asked if I'd ever been secondaried before going into Canada and I answered that honestly. He asked where I worked, then asked if I worked today and if that's why I'm so late getting up here (9:30 PM).

I waited a couple minutes and he said "What did HP do to this thing?" and I said "What do you mean?" and he said "I can't get to anything" and I realized...Windows 8. I told him "oh, it's Windows 8" and waited a second and then said "Do you want me to walk over there and show you how to work it?" He hesitated for a second and said "sure." He wanted to see my "My Pictures" folder, so I guided him to that. He couldn't figure out how to work the start screen interface at all. Once that happened I stopped being so nervous.

All my road photos are on the desktop, so he wanted to see those.  This is a screenshot of my desktop as it was when that happened (http://www.corcohighways.org/desktop.jpg). He said "so the bc folder then, that contains photos from your trip to BC?" and I said "yes." He opened the rawphotos folder and opened one picture in the photo viewer, but neither of us could figure out how to make it scroll between photos. The picture he opened happened to be a random reassurance shield in Missouri from my Wichita trip and he said "where's that at?" and I said "Missouri".  I think at that point he realized I'm just a crazy person and not a criminal. A few seconds later he laughed and said "I'm confused, I need to learn Windows 8. Here's your passport. Put your laptop away and have a nice trip." As he walked away he said "and now you have a story!"

I tried to be as nice and helpful as possible, and I think that went a long way. I kept a smile on my face as he was searching and tried to help him search as best I could.

So that was...oddly interesting. He was really polite, never accused me of anything, and at the end I think  he realized I'm just a guy who likes roadtrips. I'm sure I'm on some red flag list now though...we'll see when I go back into the states on Monday.

Moral of the story is never give route numbers and have a plan- I had this too oddly specific story that had nothing to do with Edmonton, and that warranted a secondary. I think that's fair.

I'm 2 for 2 now on getting secondaried in the dark- once from Canada into the US in 07 and once from the US into Canada today, and both times have been really pleasant given the circumstances.

I don't know if this makes me reluctant to return to Canada- with a more obnoxious border agent that could have been really unpleasant but at the same time this one was kinda  on me for not having a straight answer to a simple question. I was going to go to Vancouver over Columbus Day and I may put that off since they were so interested in previous trips to Canada, but that trip would be to see a hockey game so that's a pretty good reason to go to Canada. We'll see.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on August 31, 2013, 11:57:36 AM
This is an interesting story.  I am tempted to suggest that you could get a TourBook for this part of Canada (comes free with AAA membership) and quote some of the starred attractions (now, cheesily, called "GEM" and marked with a cut-diamond logo--"GEM" is an initialism for "Great Experience for Members") along the planned itinerary.  But, on reflection, I am not sure this is a great idea because (1) you shouldn't have to tailor your itinerary description to the immigration officers' expectations of a "standard" tourist, and (2) if they record your answers and later refer to those records the next time you enter Canada, then those are hostages to fortune you don't want--"So, how was the Glenbow Museum when you visited it?" is really awkward when you haven't been there.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on August 31, 2013, 01:05:11 PM
I don't know if this would make you more or less likely to be searched in the future.  I would think that the CBPA would log their encounter with you and use it for future interviews with you.  Today's experience with the border staff might actually make you less likely to be searched in the future.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Scott5114 on August 31, 2013, 01:38:37 PM
You know, maybe I should install Linux on my laptop. . .
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on August 31, 2013, 08:57:18 PM
This is one reason why a travel with my chromebook.  The other is that I'm lazy and don't want to fish my laptop power cord from the maze of cables in the back of my desk.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: hbelkins on August 31, 2013, 09:24:43 PM
This is one of the reasons that I will probably never get to travel in Canada. They'd have a blast searching my MacBook, my Acer netbook, two iPads, an iPhone, an iPod Touch and all my other gadgetry. I'd have to budget a whole day for the border crossing.

And here I thought coming back home was the problematic area.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on August 31, 2013, 09:51:58 PM
I'm not sure... I'm going to rethink bringing my laptop in the future just because it's kind of a hassle. If you love traveling with devices and don't have a specific reason to be in Canada, yeah... I can see the desire to avoid. My brain works such that it kind of taints the whole trip- today a more than healthy part of my brain has been worried about crossing back in on Monday, when I should be enjoying myself. The only thing though...he clearly wasn't satisfied with just a suitcase check. If I hadn't had a laptop for him to search, I wonder what he would have done instead.

I don't know what the best solution is. I had better luck crossing last time when, when they asked my destination, I said "Alberta." and then explained I was driving a loop (I crossed from BC). I can't really say "Alberta" if I am crossing from a checkpoint that goes directly into Alberta, but I'm sure there's a phrasing that is both honest and wouldn't raise the flags. This time I said "Lethbridge and then up to Edmonton" and it sounded like I was backtracking when they asked why, me thinks. It's imperative to be honest- had I been lying I would have been tripped up by the questions yesterday, there's pretty much no way around it because I had to repeat the same story about my trip to Canada in Feburary about four times.

I've always had more trouble getting into Canada than back into the US, because usually my reasoning for being in Canada is tenuous at best for CBSA agents, but my reasons for returning to the US are obviously clear (and after I've actually been in Canada, it's a lot easier for me to explain with confidence what I did in Canada over what I'm going to do, and a lot easier to prove- I keep all my receipts which would clearly show that I spent my time on the road, and worse case is I have like a thousand photos of road signs that pretty much trace my route). I don't know if the US maybe has more info about me than Canada...any info the government has access to on me would strengthen my case as a non-criminal (stable government job, good credit, no record, etc), and the US always seems more concerned with me importing things which is easy enough to disprove while Canada is more concerned with my motives for entering Canada.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: NE2 on August 31, 2013, 10:18:08 PM
Say your destination is sightseeing.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Kacie Jane on August 31, 2013, 10:27:42 PM
Sightseeing where?  What sights?  Answering vaguely only opens the door to harder-to-answer questions.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on August 31, 2013, 10:30:22 PM
That worked last time, actually. When I said my destination was Alberta, I said I'd be sightseeing, and that worked well. I had to keep repeating it, but it worked. I said it this time, but sort of lumped it in after I said I was going to Edmonton and it seemed like a lie.

I don't know how many times you can use that in the same general area though before it raises flags anyway.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: mgk920 on August 31, 2013, 10:37:24 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 31, 2013, 09:24:43 PM
This is one of the reasons that I will probably never get to travel in Canada. They'd have a blast searching my MacBook, my Acer netbook, two iPads, an iPhone, an iPod Touch and all my other gadgetry. I'd have to budget a whole day for the border crossing.

And here I thought coming back home was the problematic area.

I'm planning to wait until such time as the checkpoints can be removed, too.  If I pass on before then, well, c'est la vie.

:meh:

Mike
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: empirestate on September 01, 2013, 12:54:13 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 31, 2013, 10:37:24 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 31, 2013, 09:24:43 PM
This is one of the reasons that I will probably never get to travel in Canada. They'd have a blast searching my MacBook, my Acer netbook, two iPads, an iPhone, an iPod Touch and all my other gadgetry. I'd have to budget a whole day for the border crossing.

And here I thought coming back home was the problematic area.

I'm planning to wait until such time as the checkpoints can be removed, too.  If I pass on before then, well, c'est la vie.

:meh:

Mike

Oh come now, fellas...having gadgets isn't going to get you searched, having a vague plan is what does it. All you need is to pick one or two reasonable, truthful destinations or sights and state them as the purpose of your trip. If they ask you why you're crossing here instead of the "usual" place, just say you like taking back roads or you thought there'd be less traffic. How you get to and from your destinations doesn't even need to come up. I have been thoroughly questioned for what I thought was a pretty mundane crossing, because my itinerary was vague. Then another time, when I had an absolutely ridiculous-sounding (I thought) 36-hour international mission, there wasn't the slightest glimmer of suspicion.

Now if you do get pulled inside, yeah, you can always leave most of the gadgets at home–you already have to leave the guns, anyway, so what's another laptop or two?

Of course, yeah, you could always just not go in the first place. I happen to love Canada, so it's a safe assumption that H.B. would not be missing out on anything he'd be at all interested in. :-D

As another option, you can just cross on foot at the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls. This is usually super-easy, because you have no car with you to be searched, your destination, duration and purpose there are obvious (you're going to Niagara Falls for a few hours to be a tourist), and the toll is cheap (50 cents U.S.-bound, as of last week). Only problem is, sometimes there's only one officer handling pedestrians; or there might be two or three, but the others are tied up with suspicious characters like corco from when they got pulled in from their vehicles.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Mr_Northside on September 01, 2013, 01:37:50 AM
Quote from: NE2 on August 31, 2013, 10:18:08 PM
Say your destination is sightseeing.

This is pretty much S.O.P in the Niagara Falls area. 

I remember the first time (that I can remember) crossing the Peace Bridge.  My grandparents were with us, and my grandma was from Wales (and I don't think ever bothered to get citizenship, despite being married to my grandfather since the end of World War 2), so we had to deal with a bunch of stuff for that (I was only in 4th grade at the time, so I don't remember the details other than having to park, and she had to go into a building.

The only other crossing I've used was taking I-190 into Canada after visiting Fort Niagara... in 2010.  We give him our passports, and he starts asking about our "tickets".  We (I was driving) just had blank looks on our faces.  And he asked again; so I finally asked "What are you talking about?"  He said "For the game."
Apparently the Pirates were playing the Toronto Blue Jays, and since we were from near Pittsburgh he thought we were there for that.  They were so horrible then, I just told him "They're so bad we don't bother watching them in Pittsburgh.  We're gonna spend our time in Canada better than that." - or something to that effect.  He was fine with that, and let us on thru.
Other than that though, I've only ever crossed at the Peace Bridge (more often as a passenger), and other than traffic, haven't had any crappy experiences.  Not always the most pleasant customs agents (especially when "tripping balls"), but I suppose that comes from the job.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Brandon on September 01, 2013, 07:21:20 AM
Corco, if your destination was Edmonton, you have a great answer: West Edmonton Mall.  It's only the biggest tourist attraction in the province.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 01, 2013, 09:38:47 AM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on August 31, 2013, 10:27:42 PM
Sightseeing where?  What sights?  Answering vaguely only opens the door to harder-to-answer questions.

Actually, for my one border crossing experience, I found the opposite to be true. The CBSA agent asked me what the purpose of my visit was, I said tourism, he asked me where I was going, I said I was driving a loop around Quebec, and he said okay have a nice day.
I would have thought it'd be more suspicious to give them a whole long list of things I was going to see.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: empirestate on September 01, 2013, 09:54:51 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on September 01, 2013, 09:38:47 AM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on August 31, 2013, 10:27:42 PM
Sightseeing where?  What sights?  Answering vaguely only opens the door to harder-to-answer questions.

Actually, for my one border crossing experience, I found the opposite to be true. The CBSA agent asked me what the purpose of my visit was, I said tourism, he asked me where I was going, I said I was driving a loop around Quebec, and he said okay have a nice day.
I would have thought it'd be more suspicious to give them a whole long list of things I was going to see.

Exactly: not too vague, not too specific. You know, just act like a normal person, not a roadgeek. But again, don't just make up a story, they'll catch you in that for sure. Actually have enough of a touristic itinerary that they'll be satisfied with, then you needn't even get into why you might have thousands of photos of road signs on your laptop.

Quote from: Mr_Northside on September 01, 2013, 01:37:50 AM
Apparently the Pirates were playing the Toronto Blue Jays, and since we were from near Pittsburgh he thought we were there for that.  They were so horrible then, I just told him "They're so bad we don't bother watching them in Pittsburgh.  We're gonna spend our time in Canada better than that." - or something to that effect.  He was fine with that, and let us on thru.

Hey, part of why I love going to Pirates home games is because they suck! There's no pressure; the fans are already resigned to the fact that it'll be a losing day, so there isn't anger and belligerence all around (and if they do win, it's a bonus). That, and it's probably the best view from a ballpark anywhere.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: J N Winkler on September 01, 2013, 11:18:14 AM
In regard to the travelling-with-devices issue:  the last time I took a long-distance roadtrip, which was to Colorado and New Mexico in early September 2012, I took just my digital camera and my old laptop, which had already been cleaned of data.  I would never cross a border where search of devices is routine (as appears now to be the case at the US-Canadian border) except with "second devices" that are easy to sanitize.  It is too easy to have material on a primary computer that is either entirely legal in the country of origin (such as a stash of porn clips) or represents a comparatively minor violation of the law (such as a collection of TV rips of broadcast TV shows) that will cause all kinds of trouble in a border search.  While there are techniques for protecting this kind of content from casual search, such as packing it into encrypted ZIPs or into a folder hierarchy where the top-level folder has its attributes changed to "superhidden," the only way to be absolutely safe is to ensure it is not physically stored at all when crossing the border.  It is a hassle to deal with "home base" over the slow wireless connections that are typically available in budget motels, but if I were travelling in Canada for an extended period of time, I would get VPN server/client software to allow me to connect remotely to my primary computer for purposes of working with sensitive material.

This said, I don't see any value in boycotting Canada simply because searches of devices happens on occasion.  The Canadians are not going to change their border search policies simply because they are disfavored by a comparatively marginal group in the US.  Pretty much every other industrialized country at least keeps legal powers to search devices in reserve, even if such searches are not routinely carried out.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on September 01, 2013, 11:56:02 AM
^ Put sensitive material on a portable hard drive and leave it at home.

I always travel with my laptop, and it has never been searched, and I usually tell the boarder staff that I have my laptop with me, so that I can use it to book hotels on-line for the later stages of my journey.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: oscar on September 01, 2013, 12:10:15 PM
Just to follow up on my previous annoying border experiences:  I just got back from a trip to northern Manitoba, which included three round-trip border crossings (into Canada at US 281/MB 10, MN 72/ON 11, and MN 61/ON 61; return to the US at MB 59/US 59, ON 71/US 71, and I-75 at Sault Ste. Marie).  No hassles at all on any of the crossings, the closest I came to a secondary was having to open my hatch while I was in line so the agent could take a quick peek inside.

Considering my history as a magnet for secondary searches, either I'm now doing something right, or agents on both sides of the border have finally caught on that searching my vehicle would be a waste of time.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: empirestate on September 01, 2013, 03:46:36 PM
I'll also add that I made my first use of my enhanced driver's license on my most recent crossing. I and two friends who also had EDLs were traveling together; they popped them into their machine, and we were on our way with the barest of questioning. I'll obviously need more experiences to judge whether the EDL does much to streamline the process, but it doubtless makes it easier for agents to track my border-crossing history. I guess I was a bit disappointed that, it being my birthday, I didn't get a friendly birthday wish from the agent, which has happened to me before.

(If you don't know, an EDL is a driver's license with extra encoded data that verifies citizenship, similar to a passport card. It can be used in lieu of a passport at Canadian and Mexican land crossings and seaports, as well as in the Caribbean. It costs extra and only a few states offer them, but if you think you might use it occasionally, it's a great way to skip the much-longer DMV line for a regular license!)
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on September 02, 2013, 11:20:05 AM
I noticed that the crossings were quicker when I got my EDL, though as people who have known me a long time know, that wasn't exactly controlled conditions, so it may have been something else.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 02, 2013, 01:52:41 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 02, 2013, 11:20:05 AM
I noticed that the crossings were quicker when I got my EDL, though as people who have known me a long time know, that wasn't exactly controlled conditions, so it may have been something else.

EDL?
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kkt on September 02, 2013, 02:13:10 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 02, 2013, 01:52:41 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 02, 2013, 11:20:05 AM
I noticed that the crossings were quicker when I got my EDL, though as people who have known me a long time know, that wasn't exactly controlled conditions, so it may have been something else.

EDL?

Enhanced Drivers' License.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Jim on September 02, 2013, 04:18:17 PM
Just curious - why might scanning an EDL make for any quicker of a process than scanning a passport?  I see how it would be better than the old days of typing in information from drivers licenses and birth certificates.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on September 02, 2013, 09:30:58 PM
Crossed back into the states at Carway/US 89/AB-2 today. Back to the original topic, this is now my favorite border crossing point for going Canada->USA. There was no line at all today, though the line was insanely long getting back into Canada. This makes sense- the only people who would really benefit from this crossing are people heading from the population centers in Lethbridge and Calgary to East Glacier. Americans wanting to see Waterton wouldn't use it.

Anyway, the crossing was really, really easy. I used a different tac this time, and replied to "what were you doing in Canada" with an "oh, I drove a big loop up northeast of Edmonton and then came back down." (which I did, I went up to Lac La Biche to clinch Alta. 36 before returning south to Edmonton) and had a smile on my face and acted enthusiastic about my trip. She asked what was up there, and I said "oh, it's surprisingly lush up there. Lots of lakes." She asked if I was a fisherman and I said no. Then she asked me to name some of the towns up there and asked how the roads were. Then she gave me my passport back and told me to have a good day- didn't even ask the routine questions about alcohol/tobacco/firearms.

So that is my favorite crossing now. Honestly, for Calgary->Great Falls traffic that was probably a better route. You average 15 MPH slower probably over about the same distance from where the routes split at Fort MacLeod (220 miles)- at  75 that takes what, 2h 56m? and at 60 that takes what, 3h 40m? Didn't have to sit in line for 30 minutes at Sweetgrass though as I would have had I took AB 4/I-15. AB-2/US 89 had no line. The drive is way, way prettier too as you come in on the east side of Glacier instead of out on the prairie.

That'll probably be the crossing I use in the future whenever I head south from Calgary on a Sunday/holiday Monday afternoon- okay, it takes 15 minutes longer, but you're moving the whole time and the scenery is a lot better.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: kphoger on September 02, 2013, 10:51:47 PM
Quote from: corco on September 02, 2013, 09:30:58 PM
There was no line at all today, though the line was insanely long getting back into Canada. This makes sense- the only people who would really benefit from this crossing are people heading from the population centers in Lethbridge and Calgary to East Glacier. Americans wanting to see Waterton wouldn't use it.

Do Americans visiting Canada there not go back the same way?  Wouldn't one reasonably expect a roughly one-to-one correlation between northbound and southbound drivers, no matter where the crossing is? because what goes up must come down, and vice versa.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on September 02, 2013, 10:56:17 PM
I don't think Americans use that crossing much at all. It runs diagonally from the populated parts of Alberta to Glacier National Park.

The crossing to the west, MT-17/AB-6, I suspect isn't used by Canadians very much, since it connects habitable Montana to Waterton National Park- basically I think Americans use 17/6 and Canadians use 89/2.

If you look on a map you can see what I'm talking about- http://goo.gl/maps/Kr2ok

So yeah, you basically would want to go against the grain. If it's Friday afternoon and you're going from the US to Canada or Sunday afternoon and you're going from Canada to the US, you'd use 89/2 to save time. If it's Friday afternoon and you're going from Canada to the US or Sunday afternoon and you're going from US to Canada, you'd use 17/6 to save time.

Those crossings are mainly there for people accessing Glacier/Waterton. Traffic moving between populated areas would likely be over at Sweetgrass/I-15, which does seem to have roughly equal flows.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on September 02, 2013, 11:18:22 PM
To clarify: Out of the significant number that cross into Canada, only three people on this forum have had their devices searched by the CBSA, and it only happened once to each of them, and each time, it seems to have been a very shallow search. In my case, it was my camera, and the guy got bored after about 10 photos of roads and of my friends in Westchester County. In corco's case, he also gave up once he'd seen enough shots of roads and signs.

And, H.B. Elkins, no, they don't inspect all of your devices. I always have a laptop, a smartphone, and one or two cameras. They only looked at my camera, once, for less than 30 seconds.

No matter where and how you travel, going through customs with porn on your computer is a little stupid. If you carry outright illegal stuff with you, it's very stupid, be it going into Switzerland or Australia by plane or boat, or to Canada by car. Because of that, I do exactly what AsphaltPlanet does; I have an external hard disk that never leaves Canada. In fact, I never travel with it because it's impractical anyway.

I cross 15 times a year. I've been secondaried three times in the past 5 years and never got in trouble. (Okay, there was that time when I was asked "Have you ever been fingerprinted?", which was unclear and led to a few extra questions after my unclear answer.)

When I'm out on a roadgeek trip, I almost always stop in some more or less touristy/historic places. My official purposes are: "Vacation, going to see X and Y and see some friends who live in [state]." As long as I have a believable story, really... Seriously, it takes a lot to be denied entry, in each direction. Basically, as long as they're convinced that you're not up to anything illegal, you're welcome. Oh, and if you're a citizen, you can't be denied, period. (But you can be taxed.)

Now, if you guys here are so afraid of crossing into Canada that you won't even do it once every few years... damn. Your loss.
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: corco on September 02, 2013, 11:38:16 PM
Quote from: oscar on September 01, 2013, 12:10:15 PM
Just to follow up on my previous annoying border experiences:  I just got back from a trip to northern Manitoba, which included three round-trip border crossings (into Canada at US 281/MB 10, MN 72/ON 11, and MN 61/ON 61; return to the US at MB 59/US 59, ON 71/US 71, and I-75 at Sault Ste. Marie).  No hassles at all on any of the crossings, the closest I came to a secondary was having to open my hatch while I was in line so the agent could take a quick peek inside.

Considering my history as a magnet for secondary searches, either I'm now doing something right, or agents on both sides of the border have finally caught on that searching my vehicle would be a waste of time.

Just out of curiosity, what do you say when you do those back and forth zig-zags? I'm trying to drive the entire Montana and Alberta highway systems, and there are places where doing that would be most convenient, but I'm reluctant to do so because I don't know how to explain it. 
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: vdeane on September 03, 2013, 09:15:29 PM
Quote from: Jim on September 02, 2013, 04:18:17 PM
Just curious - why might scanning an EDL make for any quicker of a process than scanning a passport?  I see how it would be better than the old days of typing in information from drivers licenses and birth certificates.

Might be because EDL's don't have any internal shielding (unlike passports, which can only be scanned when open); unless someone waits until the last possible second to remove the EDL from its case (which in NY is just a piece of paper lined with tin foil), it can be read from the moment you get in line.  But it's probably just prejudice on the part of the border officers ("you cross often enough to warrant getting a document other than a passport?  You can't possibly be a threat then" or "it's a card with RFID so it must be nexus and I won't even bother to look at it").
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: oscar on September 03, 2013, 09:48:02 PM
Quote from: corco on September 02, 2013, 11:38:16 PM
Quote from: oscar on September 01, 2013, 12:10:15 PM
Just to follow up on my previous annoying border experiences:  I just got back from a trip to northern Manitoba, which included three round-trip border crossings (into Canada at US 281/MB 10, MN 72/ON 11, and MN 61/ON 61; return to the US at MB 59/US 59, ON 71/US 71, and I-75 at Sault Ste. Marie).  No hassles at all on any of the crossings, the closest I came to a secondary was having to open my hatch while I was in line so the agent could take a quick peek inside.

Considering my history as a magnet for secondary searches, either I'm now doing something right, or agents on both sides of the border have finally caught on that searching my vehicle would be a waste of time.

Just out of curiosity, what do you say when you do those back and forth zig-zags? I'm trying to drive the entire Montana and Alberta highway systems, and there are places where doing that would be most convenient, but I'm reluctant to do so because I don't know how to explain it. 

I managed to avoid details about most of my zigzagging, just saying that my itinerary included a week in Manitoba in tourism (I threw in my visit to Churchill, to make that believable -- the rest of the province isn't exactly a tourism magnet), and a few days visiting family in the Dakotas, without details about the timing or sequence of those visits.  The one exception was my in-and-out between Baudette MN and International Falls MN, but that was a plausible shortcut to both Canadian and U.S. customs officials, since unless there are significant border delays, ON 11 is straighter and faster than MN 11. 
Title: Re: Favorite and least favorite US- Canada Border Crossings
Post by: ZLoth on October 16, 2013, 11:07:17 AM
When I was disembarking the ferry in Victoria, BC, the questions were along the lines of:I guess a 44 yo guy who is traveling alone in the off-season with a visible Sun Chips box in the back of his car would be considered suspicious.