http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.944547,-82.495341&spn=0.004322,0.008256&gl=us&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=27.944547,-82.495341&panoid=Hqw_3lu7NvcHqcODNmp2Ew&cbp=12,72.26,,0,0.64
There's nothing saying you can't turn left, but the angle is so acute that it's unlikely that left turns are intended.
That's pretty easily implied. Here's one where traffic should be restricted, yet isn't - especially on the acute right turn:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Clove+rd+at+long+hill+rd&hl=en&ll=40.862327,-74.201754&spn=0.001008,0.002071&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=34.376255,67.851563&hnear=Long+Hill+Rd+%26+Clove+Rd,+Little+Falls,+Passaic,+New+Jersey&t=k&z=19
(Search query left in for context)
Quote from: Steve on February 03, 2013, 08:03:04 AM
That's pretty easily implied.
How? Simply by the angle? Where is the line drawn?
Quote from: NE2 on February 03, 2013, 06:57:22 AM
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.944547,-82.495341&spn=0.004322,0.008256&gl=us&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=27.944547,-82.495341&panoid=Hqw_3lu7NvcHqcODNmp2Ew&cbp=12,72.26,,0,0.64
There's nothing saying you can't turn left, but the angle is so acute that it's unlikely that left turns are intended.
To me, the one way sign tells me you're not allowed to turn left.
Quote from: cjk374 on February 03, 2013, 09:49:15 AM
To me, the one way sign tells me you're not allowed to turn left.
It tells me I can't turn left from Matanzas to Henderson (and it isn't the only sign that does). But it doesn't tell me I can't turn left from Henderson to Kennedy. To me, the strongest clue of that is the shape of the painted gore.
Here's another: http://goo.gl/maps/Gzxdg
Can I turn left onto the one-way street (where the green minivan is, to the right of the two Do Not Enter signs)? I've actually done it once, and now it's no longer possible as the intersection's been reconfigured.
Quote from: cjk374 on February 03, 2013, 09:49:15 AM
Quote from: NE2 on February 03, 2013, 06:57:22 AM
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.944547,-82.495341&spn=0.004322,0.008256&gl=us&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=27.944547,-82.495341&panoid=Hqw_3lu7NvcHqcODNmp2Ew&cbp=12,72.26,,0,0.64
There's nothing saying you can't turn left, but the angle is so acute that it's unlikely that left turns are intended.
To me, the one way sign tells me you're not allowed to turn left.
I agree that you probably aren't allowed to turn left. But the one-way sign has absolutely nothing to do with it. That sign is meant for traffic coming in from Matanzas (the residential street coming in from the right), letting them know that they can't turn left onto Henderson. The question is about traffic turning left from Henderson onto Kennedy.
Well, the way the traffic logic works, no. If you turn left, you'll likely cause an accident.
http://goo.gl/maps/gf265
http://goo.gl/maps/kGcGO
When the signal in question turns green, the left signal from WB Kennedy onto SWB Henderson turns green (as seen above). The pavement markings (particularly the gore) makes it pretty obvious you're not supposed to do that; however, I think they should add a sign.
Quote from: Steve on February 03, 2013, 08:03:04 AM
That's pretty easily implied. Here's one where traffic should be restricted, yet isn't - especially on the acute right turn:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Clove+rd+at+long+hill+rd&hl=en&ll=40.862327,-74.201754&spn=0.001008,0.002071&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=34.376255,67.851563&hnear=Long+Hill+Rd+%26+Clove+Rd,+Little+Falls,+Passaic,+New+Jersey&t=k&z=19
(Search query left in for context)
http://goo.gl/maps/uGZi6
I know this area well. I grew up here. (The picture makes the area look kinda ugly, although it was and still is a very nice, quite area. And those stop lines may have been painted the day this photo was taken, seeing how white they look). Mostly covered by trees, Cape May Ave comes on a very acute angle with Mantua Blvd, similiar to the attached example. To add to the mix, which you can't tell in the aerial photo, Mantua Blvd quickly rises due to a railroad tressle. Never one did me, my family, my friends, or anyone in the neighborhood ever have trouble making the sharp right.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 03, 2013, 01:21:31 PMThe pavement markings (particularly the gore) makes it pretty obvious you're not supposed to do that; however, I think they should add a sign.
Totally agree. The gore, combined with the unbroken lane markings on Kennedy. Reasonably confident it's not intended to be a legal maneuver.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on February 03, 2013, 02:10:34 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 03, 2013, 01:21:31 PMThe pavement markings (particularly the gore) makes it pretty obvious you're not supposed to do that; however, I think they should add a sign.
Totally agree. The gore, combined with the unbroken lane markings on Kennedy. Reasonably confident it's not intended to be a legal maneuver.
To the driver that's the hint. If you observe how the traffic signals work, it's obvious it wasn't intended in the intersection design.
http://goo.gl/maps/kdhJI
The divider implies that turning isn't allowed. Oddly enough, it's been in place for longer than the US 11 bypass (which provides traffic from the west access to that road) has been.
https://maps.google.com/?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=38.779564,-82.985109&spn=0.001489,0.00176&z=19&vpsrc=6
Southbound US 23 to northbound (Old) Scioto Trail at Rosemount, Ohio. I'm not talking about a left turn at the traffic light, which has one-way issues, but more like a U turn just after it, onto the "ramp" that splits from northbound US 23. Pavement markings suggest engineers didn't even consider that movement to be a possibility. However, there is no traffic control device in place to prohibit such a turn, and I believe I've seen a car perform that maneuver before. (I won't say the unbroken yellow median striping prohibits the turn, because left turns across similar median striping are generally permitted into and out of private driveways.)
On two different occasions, I've seen people use this railroad crossing as a u-turn. I definalty blew my horn at the a-hole that did it in front of me, causing traffic in the left lane to have to stop unnessesarily. Is this technically illegal?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rxrsignals.net%2FTexas%2FA-F%2FFlower%2FJustin%2F6.jpg&hash=bc6bec7a298391b7b2dc391cd4f0eaf96ac95f53)
Quote from: Brian556 on February 03, 2013, 10:37:30 PM
On two different occasions, I've seen people use this railroad crossing as a u-turn. I definalty blew my horn at the a-hole that did it in front of me, causing traffic in the left lane to have to stop unnessesarily. Is this technically illegal?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rxrsignals.net%2FTexas%2FA-F%2FFlower%2FJustin%2F6.jpg&hash=bc6bec7a298391b7b2dc391cd4f0eaf96ac95f53)
Highly doubtful it's legal. Are there two double-yellows? You're not supposed to go through 2 double-yellows in any non-obstructive or non-emergency situation.
Quote from: vtk on February 03, 2013, 08:29:50 PM
https://maps.google.com/?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=38.779564,-82.985109&spn=0.001489,0.00176&z=19&vpsrc=6
Southbound US 23 to northbound (Old) Scioto Trail at Rosemount, Ohio. I'm not talking about a left turn at the traffic light, which has one-way issues, but more like a U turn just after it, onto the "ramp" that splits from northbound US 23. Pavement markings suggest engineers didn't even consider that movement to be a possibility. However, there is no traffic control device in place to prohibit such a turn, and I believe I've seen a car perform that maneuver before. (I won't say the unbroken yellow median striping prohibits the turn, because left turns across similar median striping are generally permitted into and out of private driveways.)
You're not supposed to turn left if there's two double-yellows. This was taught in driver's ed. It may be a Washington state thing, but it makes sense.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 03, 2013, 11:15:47 PM
You're not supposed to turn left if there's two double-yellows. This was taught in driver's ed. It may be a Washington state thing, but it makes sense.
I think it's a Washington State thing. It is not illegal in Illinois to turn left across two double yellows as many are used when widening for a turn lane or sometimes used as two double yellows right next to each other as a set of four yellow lines in the center.
Widening for a turn lane: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.576769,-88.121946&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.576769,-88.121946&panoid=9r0rsNZJaiG0sYN5W6yxWA&cbp=12,193.51,,0,23.13
Four yellow lines in center: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.578176,-88.122011&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.578176,-88.122011&panoid=xPv28f30c1P1zcEDeUf3-Q&cbp=12,343.21,,0,17.72
It may not be technically illegal to make a U-turn at a railroad crossing, but it will attract unwanted attention.
I think it's a west coast thing; CA has it too.
Top of the new exit from the I-495 Express Lanes in Virginia to Lee Highway (US-29) seen last Wednesday afternoon. Might be hard to see here, but those are both red arrows.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneousJanuary2013120_zps4d7d10d2.jpg&hash=21fb82b62149b41fc926b313f8a58375242dae29)
The question for the average driver is then whether a right on red is allowed, as there is no sign prohibiting that maneuver. The only relevant statute in Virginia is Va. Code 46.2-835, which doesn't distinguish between types of red lights:
QuoteNotwithstanding the provisions of § 46.2-833, except where signs are placed prohibiting turns on steady red, vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after coming to a full stop, may cautiously enter the intersection and make a right turn.
Such turning traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic using the intersection.
The drivers' manual published by the Virginia DMV, on the other hand, says both right and left turns on red are prohibited at red arrows (http://www.dmvnow.com/webdoc/pdf/dmv39c.pdf) (if you click the link, scroll down to the second page):
QuoteRed arrow: Virginia law prohibits right and left turns at red arrow lights.
The express lanes' operator says right on red is legal, citing the statute, and obviously the statute should always trump the DMV manual. In the end I wound up not turning right on red because I felt I couldn't see well enough around the corner to my left to determine whether the way was clear–the stop bar is quite far back and the side of the bridge is rather high.
Damn it. Not the turn on red arrow debate again.
What I was trying to get at is not whether turning on a red arrow is allowed, or is not allowed, or should or should not be allowed. Rather, I was trying to address what the reasonable average driver would think when confronted with that light–that is, would he think that right on red is allowed or not allowed.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 04, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
What I was trying to get at is not whether turning on a red arrow is allowed, or is not allowed, or should or should not be allowed. Rather, I was trying to address what the reasonable average driver would think when confronted with that light–that is, would he think that right on red is allowed or not allowed.
You're right...based on the law (and I located the VA State Law website and did a further search), the law never mentions red arrows. So in this case, it appears it would be allowed. The drivers manual is not a legal document. Maybe at one point it was prohibited, but there is clearly nothing on the state's Code of Virginia website that indicates it's illegal now.
That said, if I were to be the reasonable average driver (HA!), I would not think it was legal to turn right on a red arrow.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 04, 2013, 02:12:44 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 04, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
What I was trying to get at is not whether turning on a red arrow is allowed, or is not allowed, or should or should not be allowed. Rather, I was trying to address what the reasonable average driver would think when confronted with that light–that is, would he think that right on red is allowed or not allowed.
You're right...based on the law (and I located the VA State Law website and did a further search), the law never mentions red arrows. So in this case, it appears it would be allowed. The drivers manual is not a legal document. Maybe at one point it was prohibited, but there is clearly nothing on the state's Code of Virginia website that indicates it's illegal now.
That said, if I were to be the reasonable average driver (HA!), I would not think it was legal to turn right on a red arrow.
That would depend on what state you're from. An Illinoisan would turn right on the red arrow as there are no "No Turn On Red" signs prohibiting it.
Quote from: NE2 on February 03, 2013, 06:57:22 AM
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.944547,-82.495341&spn=0.004322,0.008256&gl=us&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=27.944547,-82.495341&panoid=Hqw_3lu7NvcHqcODNmp2Ew&cbp=12,72.26,,0,0.64
There's nothing saying you can't turn left, but the angle is so acute that it's unlikely that left turns are intended.
To me, that bears similarity to both a right-turn slip at a four-way intersection (Missouri-style) and to an on-ramp merge–both of which you can't turn left at, but neither of which actually post signs to that effect.
How about a roundabout where no one-way or right-only signs exist? Here's a highway interchange that sort of uses a roundabout as part of its design. Cars go the wrong way around it all the time–as, indeed, you can see a pickup doing in the Street View. Is that legit, or not? (In my example, there is one painted arrow, but it's only on the "bottom" end of the roundabout, the end nobody uses; there are no arrows on the rest of it.)
http://goo.gl/maps/dnp98 (http://goo.gl/maps/dnp98)
Quote from: Brandon on February 04, 2013, 06:40:32 AM
I think it's a Washington State thing. It is not illegal in Illinois to turn left across two double yellows as many are used when widening for a turn lane or sometimes used as two double yellows right next to each other as a set of four yellow lines in the center.
Widening for a turn lane: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.576769,-88.121946&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.576769,-88.121946&panoid=9r0rsNZJaiG0sYN5W6yxWA&cbp=12,193.51,,0,23.13
Four yellow lines in center: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.578176,-88.122011&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.578176,-88.122011&panoid=xPv28f30c1P1zcEDeUf3-Q&cbp=12,343.21,,0,17.72
It may not be technically illegal to make a U-turn at a railroad crossing, but it will attract unwanted attention.
How does that GSV page justify it being legal? Roads exactly like that exist in the west, but if you turn through 2 double-yellows, you'll get a ticket.
I've seen cops pull people over for doing random U-Turns outside of intersections that permit them, so I can't imagine a U-Turn being legal at a railroad crossing. Out of all of the places to do it, it's not the smartest place to do it.
Adding fuel to the double double yellow fire (though one of the four is faded): http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=37.596603,-121.861832&spn=0.015505,0.033023&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=37.596516,-121.862149&panoid=4DiSuphXZ4m9BL_LI7nZJA&cbp=12,31.7,,0,13.45
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 05, 2013, 05:02:23 AM
Quote from: Brandon on February 04, 2013, 06:40:32 AM
I think it's a Washington State thing. It is not illegal in Illinois to turn left across two double yellows as many are used when widening for a turn lane or sometimes used as two double yellows right next to each other as a set of four yellow lines in the center.
Widening for a turn lane: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.576769,-88.121946&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.576769,-88.121946&panoid=9r0rsNZJaiG0sYN5W6yxWA&cbp=12,193.51,,0,23.13
Four yellow lines in center: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.578176,-88.122011&spn=0.004364,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.578176,-88.122011&panoid=xPv28f30c1P1zcEDeUf3-Q&cbp=12,343.21,,0,17.72
It may not be technically illegal to make a U-turn at a railroad crossing, but it will attract unwanted attention.
How does that GSV page justify it being legal? Roads exactly like that exist in the west, but if you turn through 2 double-yellows, you'll get a ticket.
I've seen cops pull people over for doing random U-Turns outside of intersections that permit them, so I can't imagine a U-Turn being legal at a railroad crossing. Out of all of the places to do it, it's not the smartest place to do it.
As I said, it is not illegal to turn left across two double yellow lines in Illinois. You need a "No Left Turn" sign for that.
With plenty of driveways: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.556075,-88.124771&spn=0.006142,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.555986,-88.124868&panoid=i9cLP4LpjhdR7Cv8O2ZEag&cbp=12,51.97,,0,16.02
And a porkchop with a "No Left Turn" sign: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.556741,-88.123838&spn=0.006174,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.556666,-88.123951&panoid=xdb8lS38004I6iWVud4ISg&cbp=12,67.56,,0,31.03
And here's the
Illinois Rules of the Road: http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_a112.pdf "Solid yellow lines may be crossed
to make a left turn to or from an alley, private road, driveway or street". There is no mention in Illinois law regarding the number of yellow lines. As we've said before, the double-double yellow line prohibition must be a west coast thing. I've never heard of it anywhere in the Midwest.
In addition, for the red arrow thread, "You may make a right turn at a red
arrow".
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 03, 2013, 11:15:47 PM
You're not supposed to turn left if there's two double-yellows. This was taught in driver's ed. It may be a Washington state thing, but it makes sense.
Just because it's taught in driver's ed doesn't mean it's the law. (They often teach you how to be more careful than you're legally required to be. Plus, some teachers, just like some drivers, are misinformed.)
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/2011/07/19/is-it-legal-to-turn-over-a-double-yellow-line/
The answer may surprise you. RCW cite included.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on February 05, 2013, 07:12:46 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 03, 2013, 11:15:47 PM
You're not supposed to turn left if there's two double-yellows. This was taught in driver's ed. It may be a Washington state thing, but it makes sense.
Just because it's taught in driver's ed doesn't mean it's the law. (They often teach you how to be more careful than you're legally required to be. Plus, some teachers, just like some drivers, are misinformed.)
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/2011/07/19/is-it-legal-to-turn-over-a-double-yellow-line/
The answer may surprise you. RCW cite included.
Would there be any reason
other than a U turn to turn across a double yellow, except to turn into an alley, private road, or driveway?
Pretty sure this practice is illegal in California.
In Wisconsin however... it's almost encouraged at times.
Quote from: kphoger on February 05, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
Would there be any reason other than a U turn to turn across a double yellow, except to turn into an alley, private road, or driveway?
Possibly to park (side-of-the-street parking on the opposite side). Other than that, I'm stumped.
Worth noting that KEK is correct that
U-turns are prohibited across double yellows in Washington. But left turns are not.
Eh? That article's about a single double yellow, not a double double yellow (probably with diagonal stripes between).
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2013, 10:19:35 PM
Eh? That article's about a single double yellow, not a double double yellow (probably with diagonal stripes between).
Okay, I'm an idiot and/or my brain failed to properly parse things like "double double". Plus, I was thinking of an argument my father and stepmother got into regarding single double yellows.
Plus, I'm as baffled as KEK that it would ever be legal to cross diagonal stripes like that. Why not just repaint this one (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.556075,-88.124771&spn=0.006142,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.555986,-88.124868&panoid=i9cLP4LpjhdR7Cv8O2ZEag&cbp=12,51.97,,0,16.02) as a TWLTL?
What if there's not enough room for a full TWLTL between the opposing through lanes, but you want to allow left turns to and from driveways? How would you stripe that, if not with a double double yellow (possibly with diagonal filler stripes)?
Okay, so I dug deeper, and I'm pretty sure that these are the laws in question:
Quote from: RCW 46.61.150Whenever any highway has been divided into two or more roadways by leaving an intervening space or by a physical barrier or clearly indicated dividing section or by a median island not less than eighteen inches wide formed either by solid yellow pavement markings or by a yellow crosshatching between two solid yellow lines so installed as to control vehicular traffic, every vehicle shall be driven only upon the right-hand roadway unless directed or permitted to use another roadway by official traffic-control devices or police officers. No vehicle shall be driven over, across or within any such dividing space, barrier or section, or median island, except through an opening in such physical barrier or dividing section or space or median island, or at a crossover or intersection established by public authority.
Quote from: 625 ILCS 5/11-708 (d)Whenever any highway has been divided into 2 or more roadways by leaving an intervening space or by a physical barrier or a clearly indicated dividing section so constructed as to impede vehicular traffic, every vehicle must be driven only upon the right-hand roadway unless directed or permitted to use another roadway by official traffic-control devices or police officers. No vehicle may be driven over, across, or within any such dividing space, barrier, or section, except through an opening in the physical barrier, or dividing section, or space, or at a cross-over or intersection as established by public authority.
Washington explicitly includes "median island not less than eighteen inches wide formed either by solid yellow pavement markings or by a yellow crosshatching between two solid yellow lines", while Illinois does not -- otherwise they're nearly word-for-word identical.
But I'm curious why said crosshatching would not be included under "clearly indicated dividing section" anyway.
Quote from: vtk on February 05, 2013, 11:33:00 PM
but you want to allow left turns to and from driveways?
How else are people supposed to get to those businesses?
Quote from: deanej on February 06, 2013, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: vtk on February 05, 2013, 11:33:00 PM
but you want to allow left turns to and from driveways?
How else are people supposed to get to those businesses?
Do an U-turn at the next intersection?
Quote from: deanej on February 06, 2013, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: vtk on February 05, 2013, 11:33:00 PM
but you want to allow left turns to and from driveways?
How else are people supposed to get to those businesses?
That's exactly vtk's point. He was responding to the question of why it would ever be legal to turn left across a yellow cross-hatched flush median, and why it wouldn't be better to convert that flush median into a two-way left-turn lane. The answer is that the median may not be wide enough for a turn lane, but may be too wide for a simple double yellow line. His point was that drivers should still be allowed to turn into those businesses, but that yellow cross-hatching would be the best way to paint the median space.
Quote from: colinstu on February 06, 2013, 11:59:29 AM
Quote from: deanej on February 06, 2013, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: vtk on February 05, 2013, 11:33:00 PM
but you want to allow left turns to and from driveways?
How else are people supposed to get to those businesses?
Do an U-turn at the next intersection?
It's a good thing I've never seen that striping out here, because U turns are illegal in this part of the county.