I tend to find most School Zone speed limits to be VERY under posted. One local school near me on a state route with a 55 mph requires a drop to 15 mph as you go through the school zone, while both the school buildings are at least 50 yards off the right of way. What usually ends up happening is a line of vehicles forms at 15-20 mph, crawling through the school zone with each vehicle right on the bumper of the person in front of them. This makes it harder for buses to get out, as well as regular old cars to get out from the school property. It causes more traffic problems than it solves.
Are there any school zones like this where you live? And what are your thoughts on them in general?
Quote from: CrossCountryRoads on February 05, 2013, 02:14:31 PM
Are there any school zones like this where you live? And what are your thoughts on them in general?
one should not build schools on arterials designed to serve through traffic. that's what residential back roads are for. the out-of-hours speed limit should be no higher than 35, and the in-hours can be as low as is deemed safe. 15 sometimes does make sense if there is odd geography leading to the crossings.
I believe it is Texas that has a school zone somewhere on a 70mph four-lane undivided road. what kind of idiot decided to put the school there?
We've already had this discussion. The point of a school zone is to make it possible for cars to stop for pedestrians in heavy traffic.
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2013, 02:20:47 PM
We've already had this discussion. The point of a school zone is to make it possible for cars to stop for pedestrians in heavy traffic.
Except when there's no pedestrians around, because the school is 3-5 blocks away form the main road. At least it gives you a warning that there will be a sudden increase in nearby cell-phone-laden SUVs/minivans and motorcycle police officers.
Sometimes the school zone is way too long for what amounts to a single crossing guard for walking children that live nearby. But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.
Quote from: CrossCountryRoads on February 05, 2013, 02:14:31 PM
What usually ends up happening is a line of vehicles forms at 15-20 mph, crawling through the school zone with each vehicle right on the bumper of the person in front of them.
This is not what irks me the most. What irks me the most is that traffic often goes about 10 mph instead, even when there is nobody around. They'll go five over the rest of the way, but drop to five under for the school zone. Rrrgghh...
Quote from: formulanone on February 05, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.
Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.
Yes, the people who drive 10 over normally then 5 under in the school zone irk me too.
But the thing is, in my example, the schools are well off the right of way and there is nothing across the road from them except empty fields and woods. No one ever has any reason to cross there to begin with. So why the sudden 55 mph to 15 mph? I understand that in city areas pedestrians might be more likely to cross a street in a school zone, but my example is of a school in a very rural area. You can still stop your car rather quickly at 35 mph, so why isn't that slow enough for this rural school zone?
I think that if they have school zone speed limits, they might as well have them for all places people gather such as shopping areas, parks, churches, etc. Why are they limited to schools, when kids could also be at these other places?
Quote from: kphoger on February 05, 2013, 02:49:15 PM
Quote from: CrossCountryRoads on February 05, 2013, 02:14:31 PM
What usually ends up happening is a line of vehicles forms at 15-20 mph, crawling through the school zone with each vehicle right on the bumper of the person in front of them.
This is not what irks me the most. What irks me the most is that traffic often goes about 10 mph instead, even when there is nobody around. They'll go five over the rest of the way, but drop to five under for the school zone. Rrrgghh...
That is the same on I-4. When the speed limit is 50 or 55 in Orlando, everyone mostly does 70 to 75. Where the speed limit is 60 or 65 people slow down to 45 or 50. People do not like to do what they are told.
What causes people to want to not respect all speed zones is when lower speed limits in construction areas prevail months before and months after the project. Then you see no workers around at times and you have a 55 mph limit in a very rural area during the project with no schedule for any work to be done in the area for that particular day. The same with the length of school zones where it exceeds 1/10 mile where the zone extends further than it has to.
On Central Florida Parkway in Orlando we had a school zone 20 that was eliminated with Orange County installing a traffic signal at Galvin Drive. Now several years later, two more school zones have been added near Galvin Drive on Central Florida Parkway with one a very long distance and both areas are not in the imdiate area of any school, but just to help the crossing guards at two crosswalks that could easily be consolidated into one. One zone is less than 200 feet, but the longer one is the two spaced out crosswalks. Basically the Galvin Drive signal in the long run accomplished nothing.
New York City generally doesn't post reduced speed limits for school zones or even necessarily provide any warning whatsoever that there is a school around. The kids somehow manage to survive. And most of them walk to school and have to cross the street!
I don't mind "school zone" as a warning sign but reducing the regulatory speed limit is silly. Kids do not have speed limits reduced for them when they cross the street anywhere else, why is in front of the school special?
All that said, elementary schools having crossing guards is something I support if the intersection is not signalized. (if it's signalized, the kids can wait for the light, and having the guard go against the light just ties up traffic)
Near my house, there is a stretch a few blocks long that has schools lining one side of it. There is a school zone, but only in front of one of the schools; the other(s) has no reduction. Ironically, I see more people crossing the street where there is no school zone–and they're also more likely to just walk in front of you there as well.
Quote from: formulanone on February 05, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.
Ah, that takes me back to Drivers Ed in high school. I took my practice drivers test, and thought I had aced it. My instructor told me that I would have flunked because I drove through the entire Ball State University campus at 35 MPH, while the the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.
My defense was that college students should know better than to run out in front of cars. The instructor wasn't buying it. Three years later I was a student there and learned that college students are worse than grade schoolers. Drivers have to be prepared to stop at any time.
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2013, 02:56:33 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 05, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.
Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.
And when was the last time you saw teenagers use a crosswalk properly. They can't or don't on many occasions where I live. And yes, I see many drivers fail to yield to pedestrians using a crosswalk, although in half the cases, they don't use the crosswalk signals, either.
Unless it's a rural area with a 65 mph speed limit in town, there's enough of a gap and plenty of time to use judgement to walk across two lanes, take a moment to check again, and walk across two more. Being a pedestrian doesn't come with the free license to be a dumb-ass.
Quote from: theline on February 05, 2013, 04:21:18 PMthe the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.
was it signed? if not, you can't be expected to know.
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2013, 02:56:33 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 05, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.
Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.
It's called waiting for the break in traffic. If traffic is that heavy, then a crossing guard, four-way stop, or signal should be used.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 05, 2013, 04:52:25 PM
Quote from: theline on February 05, 2013, 04:21:18 PMthe the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.
was it signed? if not, you can't be expected to know.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was signed. I was probably eyeing a coed, since I was 15 at the time. :wow:
Quote from: theline on February 05, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 05, 2013, 04:52:25 PM
Quote from: theline on February 05, 2013, 04:21:18 PMthe the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.
was it signed? if not, you can't be expected to know.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was signed. I was probably eyeing a coed, since I was 15 at the time. :wow:
I was about to say, "They're called girls, by the way", but then I looked it up and found out the term
coed has referred to female students since the late 19th Century. :palmslap"
Quote from: Brandon on February 05, 2013, 04:52:44 PM
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2013, 02:56:33 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 05, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.
Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.
It's called waiting for the break in traffic. If traffic is that heavy, then a crossing guard, four-way stop, or signal should be used.
It's called yielding to pedestrians. What are crosswalks even
for, if not to allow pedestrians a place to cross the street without fear of being run over? If I'm going to wait for a gap in traffic large enough to not make anybody slow down, then why shouldn't I just cross wherever I feel like it, crosswalk or no crosswalk? The whole point of a crosswalk is to provide a safe place to walk across the street
without having to find a crossing guard, four-way stop, signal, bridge, tunnel, etc.
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly. If they don't want to, that's there choice, but we shouldn't try to shield people from the problems their choices cause.
Quote from: theline on February 05, 2013, 04:21:18 PM
My defense was that college students should know better than to run out in front of cars. The instructor wasn't buying it. Three years later I was a student there and learned that college students are worse than grade schoolers. Drivers have to be prepared to stop at any time.
As a current college student, I can tell you that half the problems there are caused by poor placement of paths and crosswalks on the part of the university. At Clarkson, half the paths are in places where nobody in their right mind would ever use them. And many high-traffic routes don't have a path and are marked only by dead grass. Still other useful paths become impassible after heavy snow because that's where the plows dump everything. The university then has the audacity to complain that students don't use the crosswalks correctly. Perhaps if the paths and crosswalks were laid out such that students could actually use them to get to class, people would use them properly. There are even dorms where one has to walk in the middle of the road just to go anywhere.
Quote from: NE2 on February 05, 2013, 02:56:33 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 05, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.
Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.
I was taught that you should stop, look both ways, and cross when it's clear. I neither that or walking to the nearest traffic light is practical and a large number of people need to cross there, than a signal should be installed.
Quote from: deanej on February 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly. If they don't want to, that's there choice
If someone is old enough to go to school, they're old enough to use "their" correctly. Look what I did
there...
Quote from: Steve on February 05, 2013, 06:49:53 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly. If they don't want to, that's there choice
If someone is old enough to go to school, they're old enough to use "their" correctly. Look what I did there...
If someone is old enough to drive a car, their old enough to know there suppose to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks. If they don't want to, thats they're choice.
Quote from: theline on February 05, 2013, 04:21:18 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 05, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.
Ah, that takes me back to Drivers Ed in high school. I took my practice drivers test, and thought I had aced it. My instructor told me that I would have flunked because I drove through the entire Ball State University campus at 35 MPH, while the the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.
My defense was that college students should know better than to run out in front of cars. The instructor wasn't buying it. Three years later I was a student there and learned that college students are worse than grade schoolers. Drivers have to be prepared to stop at any time.
I recall in the Purdue traffic/parking policies that it mentioned that the 20 mph limit on campus was because the entire campus is a school zone. Is this an Indiana thing? (It was not clear about the limit applying to city/state highways or just university roadways; much of State Street is posted above that despite being surrounded by campus on both sides but carrying SR 26 and being INDOT "property" I guess the University doesn't have jurisdiction over speed limit. Campus streets, however, were all posted for 20--with regular (and old) speed limit signs, not any "school" ones.
Quote from: kphoger on February 05, 2013, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 05, 2013, 06:49:53 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly. If they don't want to, that's there choice
If someone is old enough to go to school, they're old enough to use "their" correctly. Look what I did there...
If someone is old enough to drive a car, their old enough to know there suppose to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks. If they don't want to, thats they're choice.
It's tough to yield to a pedestrian when the pedestrian has stepped out in traffic less than 15 flipping feet from you. The yield/stop should be for those who entered the crosswalk then the street was clear and then a car came up upon the crosswalk. It should not be for the brain-dead who step out thinking cars will magically stop for them.
Quote from: deanej on February 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.
I'm gonna disagree. Children generally start schooling around age 5 or 6. I doubt many children that young are able to accurately judge the speed at which a vehicle is traveling or how long it would take to bring a vehicle to a stop.
Obviously kids that young should have adult supervision, but even then there's still a pretty high likelihood of a kid stepping out into the street when they shouldn't.
In Niceville, FL the popo :) stop traffic on the city streets to allow school traffic (buses and cars) to exit school grounds. They let the lines to get off the school grounds grow to 10-15 cars then stop thru traffic and let em go. Seems to work well except when you get behind 10 school buses :banghead:. Also the buses here seem to stop at every other corner in the city, back when I rode a bus the bus stopped once in our neighborhood and we walked a half mile to a mile home uphill both ways in the snow barefoot pushing a wheel barrow full of rutabagas :). BTW our school zones are 20mph and enforced vigorously, the fuzz park where they can be easily seen and still some idiots get speeding tickets :banghead:.
After finding out what zones are posted in other states, I'm happy to see NJ isn't too bad. In most cases, the school zone speed limit is 15 mph below the regular limit, although around high schools the limit is generally 10 mph below the regular limit. The school zone lower limit is generally no lower than 25 mph.
So...examples near an elementary school:
Normal speed limit: 50 mph. School Zone: 35 mph.
Normal speed limit: 40 mph. School Zone: 25 mph.
Normal speed limit: 30 mph. School Zone: 25 mph.
Normal speed limit: 25 mph. School Zone: 25 mph.
There can be variations, but this is typically what one will encounter throughout the state.
And...school zones are almost always signed "When Children Are Present". Occasionally, one will find a lighted/flashing sign instead.
Quote from: Central Avenue on February 06, 2013, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: deanej on February 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.
I'm gonna disagree. Children generally start schooling around age 5 or 6. I doubt many children that young are able to accurately judge the speed at which a vehicle is traveling or how long it would take to bring a vehicle to a stop.
Obviously kids that young should have adult supervision, but even then there's still a pretty high likelihood of a kid stepping out into the street when they shouldn't.
This sort of thing is why I don't mind the reduced speed limits near elementary schools, regardless of whether there's a designated crossing or not. The really little kids just don't have a great sense for traffic safety. Have you ever noticed how a lot of school buses these days have a metal bar type thing on the front bumper that swings out when the bus driver opens the door? It's to make kids walk further away from the bus when crossing the street–if they cross too close, it's harder for the driver to see if the way is clear. The flat-front design most school buses now have is for similar reasons–the hood most school buses had when most of us were kids would obstruct the view of a little kid who might be right in front of the bus. Apparently there were multiple accidents involving little kids who would drop something while crossing the street and then just run back to grab it without checking traffic or seeing if the bus were about to move. With the way little kids' one-track minds work, that's not surprising. Elementary school zones are one area where I
always slow down when those yellow lights are flashing, simply because I've seen too many little kids do dumb things like chasing a ball into the street without looking for cars.
High schools
should be different because those kids should know better, but the problem with them is that a lot of them seem either not to care what the rules are or else to take a belligerent attitude of daring you to hit them. Either way, though, I understand why many localities just post the same school zone speed limit for all school zones without differentiating between elementary/junior high/high schools (I guess the current fad is not to say "junior high" and to call it "middle school," but whatever).
I was passing through a school zone yesterday afternoon, speed limit dropped from 35 to 25, and two motorcycle cops were in front of me so I DEFINITELY slowed down....pissed off the guy behind me and he peeled out to pass me and then, of course, he suddenly slammed on his brakes. Asshole didn't even look sheepish when he realized why I was going so slowly. That school zone almost always has police enforcement because the road is six lanes wide (three each way) and there's a mid-block crosswalk controlled only by a crossing guard during school hours. I almost always see multiple cars stopped for speeding, too. They use laser there–when traffic was stopped one day I was next to a cop standing on the side of the road and I rolled down my window and asked because it didn't look like a radar gun.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 06, 2013, 09:46:26 AMThat school zone almost always has police enforcement because the road is six lanes wide (three each way) and there's a mid-block crosswalk controlled only by a crossing guard during school hours.
that definitely sounds like a "you should not have built a school there".
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 06, 2013, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 06, 2013, 09:46:26 AMThat school zone almost always has police enforcement because the road is six lanes wide (three each way) and there's a mid-block crosswalk controlled only by a crossing guard during school hours.
that definitely sounds like a "you should not have built a school there".
Hard to say. I have no idea how long the school has been there nor whether the road may have been widened at some point after the school was built. I can see on historicaerials.com that the road used to be two lanes (one per side), but there's a 15-year gap in the images.
Quote from: Central Avenue on February 06, 2013, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: deanej on February 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.
I'm gonna disagree. Children generally start schooling around age 5 or 6. I doubt many children that young are able to accurately judge the speed at which a vehicle is traveling or how long it would take to bring a vehicle to a stop.
Obviously kids that young should have adult supervision, but even then there's still a pretty high likelihood of a kid stepping out into the street when they shouldn't.
When I was that young I knew to look both ways, cross only when there's no car in sight (or the only cars are very far away) and to run across. I've always assumed that it's the way I was raised. Am I just weird?
My grandparents also didn't allow me (or my cousins) to play near the road without adult supervision.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 06, 2013, 10:16:13 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 06, 2013, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 06, 2013, 09:46:26 AMThat school zone almost always has police enforcement because the road is six lanes wide (three each way) and there's a mid-block crosswalk controlled only by a crossing guard during school hours.
that definitely sounds like a "you should not have built a school there".
Hard to say. I have no idea how long the school has been there nor whether the road may have been widened at some point after the school was built. I can see on historicaerials.com that the road used to be two lanes (one per side), but there's a 15-year gap in the images.
Agreed - the school certainly may have been there first and the increased traffic and road expansion come after. Also, isn't that where schools need to be, where children and their families live?
Quote from: US81 on February 06, 2013, 11:30:25 AM
Agreed - the school certainly may have been there first and the increased traffic and road expansion come after. Also, isn't that where schools need to be, where children and their families live?
people generally don't
live on six-lane arterials. usually their neighborhood roads are divided off by access limitations.
Quote from: Brandon on February 05, 2013, 10:24:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 05, 2013, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 05, 2013, 06:49:53 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly. If they don't want to, that's there choice
If someone is old enough to go to school, they're old enough to use "their" correctly. Look what I did there...
If someone is old enough to drive a car, their old enough to know there suppose to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks. If they don't want to, thats they're choice.
It's tough to yield to a pedestrian when the pedestrian has stepped out in traffic less than 15 flipping feet from you. The yield/stop should be for those who entered the crosswalk then the street was clear and then a car came up upon the crosswalk. It should not be for the brain-dead who step out thinking cars will magically stop for them.
As for the law: A driver is required to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, period. One toe in your lane means you're required to yield. This is even true for cases where the pedestrian didn't use a crosswalk. The law doesn't let you decide the street wasn't clear
enough when the pedestrian stepped out and just not yield to him. Treat every crosswalk as a "Yield to pedestrians" sign.
As for common sense: If there's someone at a crosswalk (or even not), close to the curb, who looks like he wants to cross the street–then you, as a driver, should be prepared for him to step into the crosswalk at any time. It's called defensive driving.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 06, 2013, 11:31:57 AM
Quote from: US81 on February 06, 2013, 11:30:25 AM
Agreed - the school certainly may have been there first and the increased traffic and road expansion come after. Also, isn't that where schools need to be, where children and their families live?
people generally don't live on six-lane arterials. usually their neighborhood roads are divided off by access limitations.
That particular road has quite a few houses on it. But, as I noted above, once upon a time it was two lanes.
Quote from: deanej on February 06, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
Quote from: Central Avenue on February 06, 2013, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: deanej on February 05, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.
I'm gonna disagree. Children generally start schooling around age 5 or 6. I doubt many children that young are able to accurately judge the speed at which a vehicle is traveling or how long it would take to bring a vehicle to a stop.
Obviously kids that young should have adult supervision, but even then there's still a pretty high likelihood of a kid stepping out into the street when they shouldn't.
When I was that young I knew to look both ways, cross only when there's no car in sight (or the only cars are very far away) and to run across. I've always assumed that it's the way I was raised. Am I just weird?
Yes. You should never run across the street, you might trip. Always walk, and if you can't walk, you shouldn't be crossing at that time.
Quote from: kphoger on February 06, 2013, 11:53:29 AMAs for the law: A driver is required to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, period. One toe in your lane means you're required to yield.
One toe within one lane of your half of the roadway means you're required to yield. (Another good reason to walk, it gives drivers more time to see you and stop, rather than if you just dart across all willy-nilly.)
Quote from: kphoger on February 06, 2013, 11:53:29 AM
As for common sense: If there's someone at a crosswalk (or even not), close to the curb, who looks like he wants to cross the street– then you, as a driver, should be prepared for him to step into the crosswalk at any time. It's called defensive driving.
In my opinion, common sense would dictate one shouldn't be crossing a busy road if it's obvious a bunch of cars are coming. But I'm more of a pedestrian than a driver anyway, so maybe it's me.
Quote from: kj3400 on February 06, 2013, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 06, 2013, 11:53:29 AM
As for common sense: If there's someone at a crosswalk (or even not), close to the curb, who looks like he wants to cross the street– then you, as a driver, should be prepared for him to step into the crosswalk at any time. It's called defensive driving.
In my opinion, common sense would dictate one shouldn't be crossing a busy road if it's obvious a bunch of cars are coming. But I'm more of a pedestrian than a driver anyway, so maybe it's me.
Caution is called for by both the driver and the pedestrian. I'm 62 years old, and I made it this far without killing myself or anyone else by always assuming that the other guy is likely to do some dumb-ass thing at any moment. Defensive driving and defensive walking are highly recommended.
I like Oklahoma's school zones because there are almost always flashing lights when the school speed limit is in effect. There are also "END SCHOOL ZONE" signs. Arkansas uses signs that say "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" and rarely has the flashing lights, which I hate.
Quote from: Stalin on February 06, 2013, 09:51:59 PM
I like Oklahoma's school zones because there are almost always flashing lights when the school speed limit is in effect. There are also "END SCHOOL ZONE" signs. Arkansas uses signs that say "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" and rarely has the flashing lights, which I hate.
Agreed. We have a bunch of "DURING RESTRICTED HOURS" signs that irk the shit out of me every time I see them. Obviously if I see a bunch of kids milling about I'm going to pay attention, but holy hell I can just see some cop writing a ticket for speeding when a basketball game is in progress.
Quote from: 6a on February 07, 2013, 07:33:10 PM
Quote from: Stalin on February 06, 2013, 09:51:59 PM
I like Oklahoma's school zones because there are almost always flashing lights when the school speed limit is in effect. There are also "END SCHOOL ZONE" signs. Arkansas uses signs that say "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" and rarely has the flashing lights, which I hate.
Agreed. We have a bunch of "DURING RESTRICTED HOURS" signs that irk the shit out of me every time I see them. Obviously if I see a bunch of kids milling about I'm going to pay attention, but holy hell I can just see some cop writing a ticket for speeding when a basketball game is in progress.
You may want to find out if it's a Police Athletic League game. Nothing's worse than a cop that's fouled out. He's just looking to take it out on someone!
Quote from: Duke87 on February 05, 2013, 03:59:28 PM
New York City generally doesn't post reduced speed limits for school zones or even necessarily provide any warning whatsoever that there is a school around. The kids somehow manage to survive. And most of them walk to school and have to cross the street!
I don't mind "school zone" as a warning sign but reducing the regulatory speed limit is silly. Kids do not have speed limits reduced for them when they cross the street anywhere else, why is in front of the school special?
All that said, elementary schools having crossing guards is something I support if the intersection is not signalized. (if it's signalized, the kids can wait for the light, and having the guard go against the light just ties up traffic)
This. Pretty much the point I was trying to make but didn't articulate as well as you did in this post.
School zones are worthless
The high/middle school in my community (https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.02705,-82.43229&spn=0.007854,0.021136&t=h&z=16) has a school zone around the road entrance but not around the sidewalk that carries most of the foot traffic.
It could be, and was, worse. It was shortened by a quarter of a mile a few years ago. Right now, the east end is at the sharp turn by the football field. It used to be at the exit of the condo complex north of the schools.
I think the optimal policy should be what some cities in Nebraska do, which is have a traffic light on the road at the school crossing. They are activated by someone hitting the walk button. Of course, not all kids do that, but if you could get them to do that, and only cross at the light, it would save a lot of trouble.
Another thing they do here in Nebraska is the pedestrian bridge over the road, although it's been years since Omaha built a new one. La Vista did build one early in the 2000's by G. Stanley Hall Elementary on 72nd St. (a major thoroughfare). I'm not sure whether they have any in the part of Nebraska outside the Omaha area, but I know that particular one always has kids in it (it's covered) when school lets out.
I know that school zones exist to keep school students safe, but I find them annoying.
The school zone speed limit in Pennsylvania is 15 mph. The schools in my area have large expanses of land, and the buildings are far from the street.
The elementary schools (grades K-5) have schoolyards that are fenced in and have grass in between the fence and the street. The schools off of main roads have crossing guards, so the traffic already has to stop to let the children cross.
Elementary schools are the worst with school zones, because the 15 mph speed limit is active several times a day, "during opening, closing, and recess," as the signs say.
The middle schools (6-8) are also far from the street. The high school in my area is very far from the street, but that doesn't bother me because I don't drive past it on a regular basis and most of the traffic on the road just goes to and from the school, since the road dead ends past the school.
There are very few students that walk to school in my area; most of them ride school buses, so there aren't that many children crossing the streets. The walkers either walk or get a ride from a parent.
I hate it when I drive in an active school zone (lights flashing and "15" lit) and there are no students anywhere. I'm like, "Why the heck am I slowing down?"
This one school zone in my area is almost always active. I can never predict when it's going to be active. I drive past this elementary school once a week when I give a friend a ride home and the 15 mph speed limit is always in effect at that time. The road I drive on is one lane in each direction and its regular speed limit is 35.
It can be 11:30, 11:40, or 11:50, and it'll be active. Depending on the time, the kids are either at recess or lining up to go back to class. The time I passed the school at 11:50, nobody was outside and the weather was fine. Last week, I drove past it a few minutes earlier and there were no students outside. I think they had indoor recess since there was snow on the grass.
The absolute most annoying thing about the school zones is this:
When school is closed for an inservice, holiday, break, bad weather, etc, nobody turns off the signs. That means I'm driving 15 mph just because the signs are on. The electronic signs appear to be controlled by a box on the pole. If they could be controlled remotely by the schools, they could be adjusted easily for non-school days, inclement weather closings/delayed openings/early dismissals, and other things.
I understand the need for active school zones during opening and closing, but is it really necessary during recess? Especially in rural areas where the schoolyard is fenced in and a distance away from the street?
Quote from: ilvny on February 09, 2013, 08:13:25 PM
I hate it when I drive in an active school zone (lights flashing and "15" lit) and there are no students anywhere. I'm like, "Why the heck am I slowing down?"
The absolute most annoying thing about the school zones is this:
When school is closed for an inservice, holiday, break, bad weather, etc, nobody turns off the signs. That means I'm driving 15 mph just because the signs are on.
This is true where I live as well, with signs that explicitly say "school zone"..."when lights are flashing." It is annoying to know that it's spring break, summer recess or whatever, and yet the law - with the high-priced penalties - is still the law. Conversely, sometimes one drives past a school that is clearly in session, children everywhere and yet the lights are not flashing. Somehow I suspect the law is still enforced.
In NY we don't even have flashers most of the time - it's just 15/20 any time between 6 AM and 6 PM Mon-Fri (sometimes "school days").
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 08, 2013, 09:32:47 PM
School zones are worthless
Wait a second. Where's the logic behind this? Why do you think school zones are worthless? They're actually necessary for the safety of children and parents crossing the arterial. What if that was your child going through a crosswalk in a 25 MPH school zone and some dummy blasts the red light at 40 and hits your child? See where I'm getting at?
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on February 11, 2013, 10:19:43 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 08, 2013, 09:32:47 PM
School zones are worthless
Wait a second. Where's the logic behind this? Why do you think school zones are worthless? They're actually necessary for the safety of children and parents crossing the arterial. What if that was your child going through a crosswalk in a 25 MPH school zone and some dummy blasts the red light at 40 and hits your child? See where I'm getting at?
They're worthless in most instances because children are usually never outside all day (at least where I live), I agree they are useful in those instances you mentioned. I think that they are useful in the instances where the sign says, "when children are present" I don't like the ones that say "7am to 4:30pm" There's no need for it to be all day, children aren't outside all day. I'm sure you totally disagree with my opinion though.
Quote from: deanej on February 10, 2013, 12:48:20 PM
In NY we don't even have flashers most of the time - it's just 15/20 any time between 6 AM and 6 PM Mon-Fri (sometimes "school days").
Is this New York City? I'd hate to have to drive slower like that during that time period, since most of my driving is in the morning and afternoon.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on February 11, 2013, 10:19:43 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 08, 2013, 09:32:47 PM
School zones are worthless
Wait a second. Where's the logic behind this? Why do you think school zones are worthless? They're actually necessary for the safety of children and parents crossing the arterial. What if that was your child going through a crosswalk in a 25 MPH school zone and some dummy blasts the red light at 40 and hits your child? See where I'm getting at?
If someone's blasting a red light, do you really think they're going to pay attention to a 25mph school zone (which would actually be really high for a school zone; I have only seen one that high)? Though, for the record, I have never observed anyone blasting red lights either; 100% of red light running I've observed is cases of yellows that are too short (so people can't stop in time) or the common problem of "I'm tailgating so I don't have to obey traffic laws" where a line of cars will follow one driver who entered the intersection at the tail end of a yellow.
Quote from: ilvny on February 11, 2013, 12:38:17 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 10, 2013, 12:48:20 PM
In NY we don't even have flashers most of the time - it's just 15/20 any time between 6 AM and 6 PM Mon-Fri (sometimes "school days").
Is this New York City? I'd hate to have to drive slower like that during that time period, since most of my driving is in the morning and afternoon.
Nope - upstate; most of my experience is in the Finger Lakes region.
Quote from: deanej on February 06, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
When I was that young I knew to look both ways, cross only when there's no car in sight (or the only cars are very far away) and to run across. I've always assumed that it's the way I was raised. Am I just weird?
It sounds like you were raised in a very small town. Here in Seattle, if you only crossed when there was no car nearby, you'd remain on your own block for hours. Prevailing speeds outside of school zones are 30-40 mph, and at that speed drivers cannot see a pedestrian stepping into the street in time to stop. Hence, the need for school zones.
Maybe they aren't ideal locations for schools, but most of the schools built facing arterials were built more than 60 years ago when there was much less car traffic and what traffic there was was much slower. It's not terribly helpful to suggest closing them and rebuilding elsewhere now that the city is densely built. The school district expects students who live within 3/4 mile of their school to walk and generally does not provide busing for such short distances, and that's healthier for the students and their parents too.
Incidentally, Seattle just started red light cameras in school zones, and they're surprised by how many drivers are caught speeding through. The revenue does not go into the general fund, it goes into traffic safety improvements and education. The school zone speed limit here is 20 mph, and even at that they catch a lot of speeders.
Quote from: kphoger on February 05, 2013, 05:15:52 PM
I was about to say, "They're called girls, by the way", but then I looked it up and found out the term coed has referred to female students since the late 19th Century. :palmslap"
Is a male student attending a historically all-women's college a co-ed?
I would use the term "women" unless there's some reason to emphasize that the college just started admitting women recently.
On the Seattle story, are those school zones all day or just at certain hours in the morning and the afternoon. I'm fine with school zones, but only in the cases that certain hours (7-9, 3-5 for example) are listed or the sign says "When Children are Present." I see no reason for me to be slowing down when I drive by a school when the children are INSIDE the school. My car going the legal speed limit should not be a threat to them when they are inside a brick/stone structure.
Quote from: tdindy88 on February 11, 2013, 06:16:36 PM
On the Seattle story, are those school zones all day or just at certain hours in the morning and the afternoon. I'm fine with school zones, but only in the cases that certain hours (7-9, 3-5 for example) are listed or the sign says "When Children are Present." I see no reason for me to be slowing down when I drive by a school when the children are INSIDE the school. My car going the legal speed limit should not be a threat to them when they are inside a brick/stone structure.
Most of them are "when children are present". The rest have flashing lights shortly before and after school and are "when lights flash or when children are present".
Quote from: kkt on February 11, 2013, 05:56:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 05, 2013, 05:15:52 PM
I was about to say, "They're called girls, by the way", but then I looked it up and found out the term coed has referred to female students since the late 19th Century. :palmslap"
Is a male student attending a historically all-women's college a co-ed?
I would use the term "women" unless there's some reason to emphasize that the college just started admitting women recently.
I was the first to use "coed" in this thread and I admit to being a person from another era. Kphoger points out that the term has been in use since the late 19th century. I deny that I'm old enough to be the first to use it. :-D
If someone can provide an authoritative cite that the term is considered pejorative, I'll quit using it. Otherwise, I'll go right ahead.
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.
Quote from: SidS1045 on February 12, 2013, 10:53:04 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 11, 2013, 05:01:23 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 11, 2013, 11:09:17 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 08, 2013, 09:32:47 PM
School zones are worthless
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 11, 2013, 10:38:00 AM
Their worthless
let me guess; you think schools are worthless too.
Nope proud college student.
Spelling > you.
So I made a mistake in spelling, big deal, it happens to everyone, even you.
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 12, 2013, 02:07:57 PM
So I made a mistake in spelling, big deal, it happens to everyone, even you.
you're just digging your hole even further, with the absurd combination of college-education braggartry and careless sentence construction.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 12, 2013, 02:23:58 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 12, 2013, 02:07:57 PM
So I made a mistake in spelling, big deal, it happens to everyone, even you.
you're just digging your hole even further, with the absurd combination of college-education braggartry and careless sentence construction.
I'm not bragging, you're starting a flame war and that is absurd. Also before you insult me, make sure your own house is in order, you also aren't practicing proper grammar.
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 12, 2013, 02:39:05 PM
I'm not bragging, you're starting a flame war and that is absurd. Also before you insult me, make sure your own house is in order, you also aren't practicing proper grammar.
I'm not the one who declared school zones to be worthless.
Quote from: US81 on February 10, 2013, 09:59:21 AM
Quote from: ilvny on February 09, 2013, 08:13:25 PM
I hate it when I drive in an active school zone (lights flashing and "15" lit) and there are no students anywhere. I'm like, "Why the heck am I slowing down?"
The absolute most annoying thing about the school zones is this:
When school is closed for an inservice, holiday, break, bad weather, etc, nobody turns off the signs. That means I'm driving 15 mph just because the signs are on.
This is true where I live as well, with signs that explicitly say "school zone"..."when lights are flashing." It is annoying to know that it's spring break, summer recess or whatever, and yet the law - with the high-priced penalties - is still the law. Conversely, sometimes one drives past a school that is clearly in session, children everywhere and yet the lights are not flashing. Somehow I suspect the law is still enforced.
To be fair, I've never seen a cop sitting there clocking people's speed on days when school is not in session.
Quote from: empirestate on February 11, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.
Really? We're all going to war about
they're and
their, yet nobody is bothered by referring to a child as "it"? :D
Quote from: empirestate on February 11, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.
Actually the implication is that you'd be more inclined to blow past a crosswalk where a kid is waiting to cross when driving at a higher speed.
Quote from: kkt on February 11, 2013, 05:48:36 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 06, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
When I was that young I knew to look both ways, cross only when there's no car in sight (or the only cars are very far away) and to run across. I've always assumed that it's the way I was raised. Am I just weird?
It sounds like you were raised in a very small town. Here in Seattle, if you only crossed when there was no car nearby, you'd remain on your own block for hours. Prevailing speeds outside of school zones are 30-40 mph, and at that speed drivers cannot see a pedestrian stepping into the street in time to stop. Hence, the need for school zones.
Maybe they aren't ideal locations for schools, but most of the schools built facing arterials were built more than 60 years ago when there was much less car traffic and what traffic there was was much slower. It's not terribly helpful to suggest closing them and rebuilding elsewhere now that the city is densely built. The school district expects students who live within 3/4 mile of their school to walk and generally does not provide busing for such short distances, and that's healthier for the students and their parents too.
Incidentally, Seattle just started red light cameras in school zones, and they're surprised by how many drivers are caught speeding through. The revenue does not go into the general fund, it goes into traffic safety improvements and education. The school zone speed limit here is 20 mph, and even at that they catch a lot of speeders.
Not really, but I did grow up in the suburbs, and my family pretty much just drove everywhere. The only time I dealt with walking and arterial roads was walking to high school, and I didn't have to cross the street. Given the current state of Rochester, we didn't usually have much reason to go to the city, and the crosswalks there are all controlled by traffic lights anyways. It's probably safe to say that I had a sheltered childhood.
Quote from: NE2 on February 12, 2013, 05:42:21 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 11, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.
Actually the implication is that you'd be more inclined to blow past a crosswalk where a kid is waiting to cross when driving at a higher speed.
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past. It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross. Which strikes you as more efficient? In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past. It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross. Which strikes you as more efficient? In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).
That only holds true if there's only one car coming down the road. There are many roads where a pedestrian would need to wait a couple of minutes for a true break in traffic; due to signal timing, it's sometimes even improbable to find a true "break" at all. In cases like that, the comparison would be 30 seconds of waiting for a few cars (who actually takes 30 seconds to cross one lane of traffic, anyway?; I'd say it's more like slowing down a bit or pausing for a few seconds) to a couple of minutes of waiting for the pedestrian.
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 05:38:10 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 11, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.
Really? We're all going to war about they're and their, yet nobody is bothered by referring to a child as "it"? :D
I'm bothered by the lack of signage stating "School Zone: Points Doubled"
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 05:38:10 PM
To be fair, I've never seen a cop sitting there clocking people's speed on days when school is not in session.
the general public has little way of knowing where the speed traps are at any given moment.
furthermore, if the lights are on all the time, and people get used to thinking that during the summer they aren't enforced... then there will be cognitive dissonance, possibly with harmful consequences, on the one day of the weekend/holiday/summer when there's a special event at the school.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 12, 2013, 06:53:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 05:38:10 PM
To be fair, I've never seen a cop sitting there clocking people's speed on days when school is not in session.
the general public has little way of knowing where the speed traps are at any given moment.
furthermore, if the lights are on all the time, and people get used to thinking that during the summer they aren't enforced... then there will be cognitive dissonance, possibly with harmful consequences, on the one day of the weekend/holiday/summer when there's a special event at the school.
This is one case where Alanland actually has a one-up on the USA, since cognitive dissonance is expressly permitted under the 2012 VCG, and is even a legitimate counter-argument (rather, the
only legitimate counter-argument) to a traffic ticket.
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 07:00:41 PM
This is one case where Alanland actually has a one-up on the USA, since cognitive dissonance is expressly permitted under the 2012 VCG, and is even a legitimate counter-argument (rather, the only legitimate counter-argument) to a traffic ticket.
however, the only counter-argument which will actually get you off without penalty is to declare verbally that traffic tickets are illegal, and stomp out of the courtroom.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 12, 2013, 07:15:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 07:00:41 PM
This is one case where Alanland actually has a one-up on the USA, since cognitive dissonance is expressly permitted under the 2012 VCG, and is even a legitimate counter-argument (rather, the only legitimate counter-argument) to a traffic ticket.
however, the only counter-argument which will actually get you off without penalty is to declare verbally that traffic tickets are illegal, and stomp out of the courtroom.
Man refuses to pay ticket, storms from courtroom, evades penalty... (http://www.this-page-intentionally-left-blank.org/)
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past. It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross. Which strikes you as more efficient? In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).
That only holds true if there's only one car coming down the road. There are many roads where a pedestrian would need to wait a couple of minutes for a true break in traffic; due to signal timing, it's sometimes even improbable to find a true "break" at all. In cases like that, the comparison would be 30 seconds of waiting for a few cars (who actually takes 30 seconds to cross one lane of traffic, anyway?; I'd say it's more like slowing down a bit or pausing for a few seconds) to a couple of minutes of waiting for the pedestrian.
Then walk a flipping block over to the signal and then cross. Don't be a dumbass and cross where it is impossible to get a good break in traffic.
Quote from: Brandon on February 12, 2013, 11:56:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past. It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross. Which strikes you as more efficient? In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).
That only holds true if there's only one car coming down the road. There are many roads where a pedestrian would need to wait a couple of minutes for a true break in traffic; due to signal timing, it's sometimes even improbable to find a true "break" at all. In cases like that, the comparison would be 30 seconds of waiting for a few cars (who actually takes 30 seconds to cross one lane of traffic, anyway?; I'd say it's more like slowing down a bit or pausing for a few seconds) to a couple of minutes of waiting for the pedestrian.
Then walk a flipping block over to the signal and then cross. Don't be a dumbass and cross where it is impossible to get a good break in traffic.
Okay, here the signals are about every quarter mile. A pedestrian probably walks about 4 mph. So you're saying the pedestrian should walk 1/8 mile to the light, wait for the light, walk 1/8 mile back, say 6 minutes -- in order to save a driver 30 seconds waiting for a pedestrian to cross? You think a driver's time is 12 times as valuable as a pedestrian's?
Quote from: kkt on February 13, 2013, 01:57:50 AM
Quote from: Brandon on February 12, 2013, 11:56:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past. It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross. Which strikes you as more efficient? In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).
That only holds true if there's only one car coming down the road. There are many roads where a pedestrian would need to wait a couple of minutes for a true break in traffic; due to signal timing, it's sometimes even improbable to find a true "break" at all. In cases like that, the comparison would be 30 seconds of waiting for a few cars (who actually takes 30 seconds to cross one lane of traffic, anyway?; I'd say it's more like slowing down a bit or pausing for a few seconds) to a couple of minutes of waiting for the pedestrian.
Then walk a flipping block over to the signal and then cross. Don't be a dumbass and cross where it is impossible to get a good break in traffic.
Okay, here the signals are about every quarter mile. A pedestrian probably walks about 4 mph. So you're saying the pedestrian should walk 1/8 mile to the light, wait for the light, walk 1/8 mile back, say 6 minutes -- in order to save a driver 30 seconds waiting for a pedestrian to cross? You think a driver's time is 12 times as valuable as a pedestrian's?
Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block? Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?
Just walk the extra few minutes. Most people I see walk across a roadway, not in a cross walk, wind up walking by the next intersection anyway where it would have been legal to cross.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2013, 09:14:56 AM
Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block? Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?
False equivalency, asshole.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2013, 09:14:56 AM
Just walk the extra few minutes. Most people I see walk across a roadway, not in a cross walk, wind up walking by the next intersection anyway where it would have been legal to cross.
It's usually legal to cross between intersections.
Quote from: NE2 on February 13, 2013, 09:34:26 AM
It's usually legal to cross between intersections.
This is true; however, the pedestrian is then obligated by law to yield right of way to all vehicles on the roadway.
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2013, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: NE2 on February 13, 2013, 09:34:26 AM
It's usually legal to cross between intersections.
This is true; however, the pedestrian is then obligated by law to yield right of way to all vehicles on the roadway.
Unless there's a crosswalk, of course. Which is generally true in a school zone.
Quote from: NE2 on February 13, 2013, 01:13:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2013, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: NE2 on February 13, 2013, 09:34:26 AM
It's usually legal to cross between intersections.
This is true; however, the pedestrian is then obligated by law to yield right of way to all vehicles on the roadway.
Unless there's a crosswalk, of course. Which is generally true in a school zone.
And voilà ! We're back on topic!
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2013, 01:17:47 PM
Quote from: NE2 on February 13, 2013, 01:13:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2013, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: NE2 on February 13, 2013, 09:34:26 AM
It's usually legal to cross between intersections.
This is true; however, the pedestrian is then obligated by law to yield right of way to all vehicles on the roadway.
Unless there's a crosswalk, of course. Which is generally true in a school zone.
And voilà ! We're back on topic!
In my experience, sometimes a seemingly illogical "school zone" speed limit is posted due to a crosswalk even if the school itself isn't directly adjacent to the crosswalk's location. Back in the late 1990s when I worked in McLean, Virginia, I used to pass through a school zone on Westmoreland Street and I always wondered why. The overhead view linked below clarifies why. The crosswalk is at the center of the image and McLean High School is at the top left corner. Note the special access sidewalk leading to the school from the crosswalk. (I don't recall the cul-de-sac located just below and to the left of the crosswalk being there back then.) I haven't been on that street recently, but Google Street View shows the school zone sign as still being there (the standard "Speed Limit 25 When Flashing" style used in Northern Virginia). The crosswalk itself has been improved–there's now a pedestrian island in the center of the street.
http://binged.it/ZaKzHq
Point being, stuff like that is probably one reason why you sometimes see a "school zone" posted when it seems like there's no school around. In Fairfax County when I was a kid the rule was that elementary school students living within a one-mile radius of the school were not entitled to bus service unless there were special circumstances; for high school students the rule was a mile and a half (although I regularly walked two miles to high school just because I liked having the time to myself). On the other hand, I recall there was a crossing guard at one intersection I passed on the way to high school even though it wasn't a school zone.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2013, 09:14:56 AM
Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block? Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?
Straw man. Nobody's talking about trespassing.
Quote
Just walk the extra few minutes. Most people I see walk across a roadway, not in a cross walk, wind up walking by the next intersection anyway where it would have been legal to cross.
Nobody's talking about crossing midblock where there's no crosswalk. Just at intersections where there's no traffic light. These are legal crosswalks, whether there are painted lines or not. Drivers are required to stop for pedestrians there, and required to drive slowly enough that they could see a pedestrian with a foot in the street. It's incredibly self-centered to think that as a driver you should be able to endanger others' safety, ignore the speed limit, ignore the crosswalks, and expect others to walk many minutes out of their way just because you don't want to stop for half a minute.
Quote from: kkt on February 13, 2013, 03:54:16 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2013, 09:14:56 AM
Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block? Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?
Straw man. Nobody's talking about trespassing.
And that's not even trespassing. Unless they have a fence and/or signs, depending on the laws in your particular jurisdiction. When I was a kid, I used to cut across peoples lots all the time. Now I prefer to stick to the pavement, and the only lots I usually "trespass" on are business parking lots.
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2013, 05:11:05 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 13, 2013, 03:54:16 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2013, 09:14:56 AM
Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block? Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?
Straw man. Nobody's talking about trespassing.
And that's not even trespassing. Unless they have a fence and/or signs, depending on the laws in your particular jurisdiction. When I was a kid, I used to cut across peoples lots all the time. Now I prefer to stick to the pavement, and the only lots I usually "trespass" on are business parking lots.
Trespassing is entering private property without permission or business there. Your business isn't just "getting to the other side," either.
Quote from: Steve on February 14, 2013, 12:19:52 AM
Trespassing is entering private property without permission or business there. Your business isn't just "getting to the other side," either.
Depends on the state. In some states you're allowed to enter and even hunt (!) if there are no signs prohibiting it.
I'm guessing that's not true in NY, because when my Aunt and Uncle sold their house in Riga they explicitly put in the contract that themselves and a few others could still use the property for hunting (that said, they had a LOT of land; they could have created an entire neighborhood in their property if they wanted).
Quote from: NE2 on February 14, 2013, 10:49:22 AM
Quote from: Steve on February 14, 2013, 12:19:52 AM
Trespassing is entering private property without permission or business there. Your business isn't just "getting to the other side," either.
Depends on the state. In some states you're allowed to enter and even hunt (!) if there are no signs prohibiting it.
...which is exactly why I said "depending on the laws in your particular jurisdiction". Thank you.
The only real opinion I have about school zones is that the 'End School Zone' sign should be abolished and replaced with the year-long Speed Limit sign at each end of the school zone.
No interfering speed limit signs should be placed along the school zone, in my opinion. In other words, don't put a "Speed Limit 40" sign in between a school zone. Also, the "End School Zone" sign needs to be more visible, But usually, you can just look for the school zone warning sign going the other direction...in most cases, they're either towering, or suspended above the road.
I got out of a ticket in a school zone once because of this; there was a "35 mph" sign roughly 300 feet before the End School Zone sign (which I honestly didn't see), but a cop located just after the speed limit sign, but a fair distance from the school entrance (from my heading). He waved me down, and said "you were going 28 in a school zone". I pointed out that I thought the 35 mph sign meant the school zone had just ended. He said, "no the school zone ends a little further down [points towards the sign ahead of us]...but since you were only just now going 28, I can see why you thought that. Okay, just watch your speed...[waves me off]"
Yes, I was lucky that day. :)
Quote from: mjb2002 on February 14, 2013, 06:36:15 PM
The only real opinion I have about school zones is that the 'End School Zone' sign should be abolished and replaced with the year-long Speed Limit sign at each end of the school zone.
That's what we do in NY. I can't even recall a time where I've even seen an "end school zone" sign.
Quote from: formulanone on February 15, 2013, 09:36:46 AM
No interfering speed limit signs should be placed along the school zone, in my opinion. In other words, don't put a "Speed Limit 40" sign in between a school zone. Also, the "End School Zone" sign needs to be more visible, But usually, you can just look for the school zone warning sign going the other direction...in most cases, they're either towering, or suspended above the road.
I got out of a ticket in a school zone once because of this; there was a "35 mph" sign roughly 300 feet before the End School Zone sign (which I honestly didn't see), but a cop located just after the speed limit sign, but a fair distance from the school entrance (from my heading). He waved me down, and said "you were going 28 in a school zone". I pointed out that I thought the 35 mph sign meant the school zone had just ended. He said, "no the school zone ends a little further down [points towards the sign ahead of us]...but since you were only just now going 28, I can see why you thought that. Okay, just watch your speed...[waves me off]"
Yes, I was lucky that day. :)
Sounds like they're deliberately deceiving motorists to get speeding ticket revenue.
Quote from: mjb2002 on February 14, 2013, 06:36:15 PM
The only real opinion I have about school zones is that the 'End School Zone' sign should be abolished and replaced with the year-long Speed Limit sign at each end of the school zone.
That's what they do in Seattle. I'm surprised there isn't something about this is the Manual.
Quote from: mjb2002 on February 14, 2013, 06:36:15 PM
The only real opinion I have about school zones is that the 'End School Zone' sign should be abolished and replaced with the year-long Speed Limit sign at each end of the school zone.
Quote from: deanej on February 15, 2013, 10:50:15 AM
Quote from: formulanone on February 15, 2013, 09:36:46 AM
No interfering speed limit signs should be placed along the school zone, in my opinion. In other words, don't put a "Speed Limit 40" sign in between a school zone. Also, the "End School Zone" sign needs to be more visible, But usually, you can just look for the school zone warning sign going the other direction...in most cases, they're either towering, or suspended above the road.
I got out of a ticket in a school zone once because of this; there was a "35 mph" sign roughly 300 feet before the End School Zone sign (which I honestly didn't see), but a cop located just after the speed limit sign, but a fair distance from the school entrance (from my heading). He waved me down, and said "you were going 28 in a school zone". I pointed out that I thought the 35 mph sign meant the school zone had just ended. He said, "no the school zone ends a little further down [points towards the sign ahead of us]...but since you were only just now going 28, I can see why you thought that. Okay, just watch your speed...[waves me off]"
Yes, I was lucky that day. :)
Sounds like they're deliberately deceiving motorists to get speeding ticket revenue.
I would rather see
both signs displayed at the end of the school zone. That way, you know what the speed limit was before the school zone (especially handy if you've just pulled out from the school and never saw the previous speed limit sign) and have a definitive point at which you know you're no longer in the school zone. However, the END sign should never be placed on the left side of the roadway, always on the right; and I agree about having no other speed limit signs along the zone, except perhaps a repetition of the school zone limit.
Interesting that another regular speed limit sign would be placed inside a school zone. I've never seen this in Nevada. Usually, you will have the "end school zone" sign, and then a regular speed limit sign is posted either on the same post or just downstream of the end sign. In some cases, there is no end sign, but a regular speed limit sign designates a de facto end of the school zone where you can resume the speed as stated on the sign.
My thoughts on school zones are simple.
1. Speed limit in effect only when school is getting in and letting out. NOT 24 hours, NOT "7am-5pm on school days." (I'm glaring at you, Iowa.) ONLY when school is getting in and letting out.
3. 10-15mph under the normal speed limit. There's a school zone in Maine somewhere, can't remember the highway, but it's a 55mph highway and the limit drops to 15 for the school zone. Furthermore, the school is on a road that only intersects with the 55mph highway, there are no pedestrian crossings on the highway. The school zone is posted 500 feet leading and trailing this intersection. WTF, Maine? a reduction to 45 or even 50 would do just fine, you don't need to drop the speed limit by 40mph for that.
Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on February 27, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
there are no marked pedestrian crossings on the highway.
Fixed for you.
Not quite. I've been by there enough back when I lived up there to know that nobody crosses the highway on foot.
No, the point is that any intersection of roads (with the state-by-state exception of a T intersection with no sidewalk on the short end of the T) has crosswalks. In the absence of paint on the asphalt, they are considered unmarked crosswalks.
Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on February 27, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
My thoughts on school zones are simple.
1. Speed limit in effect only when school is getting in and letting out. NOT 24 hours, NOT "7am-5pm on school days." (I'm glaring at you, Iowa.) ONLY when school is getting in and letting out.
You might find worse in Illinois, where the school zones could go to 'when children are present' 24/7/365 per an article in the Chicago Tribune, although the actual text of the bill (that I can find online tonight) doesn't seem to agree with the article
http://openstates.org/il/bills/98th/HB3229/documents/ILD00127773/ (http://openstates.org/il/bills/98th/HB3229/documents/ILD00127773/)
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2013, 09:45:35 AM
No, the point is that any intersection of roads (with the state-by-state exception of a T intersection with no sidewalk on the short end of the T) has crosswalks. In the absence of paint on the asphalt, they are considered unmarked crosswalks.
But not all states recognize unmarked crosswalks as legal crossing points for pedestrians.
Then what the heck is a crosswalk in those states?
Do you have a source to cite that I could read?
Most of the people driving badly in school zones are dropping kids off (cellphones, no turn signals) and there are never any kids out by the street.
In my hometown, the speed limit is maintained so it will stay at 25, 30 or even 40 miles per hour. The key is crosswalks with stoplights.
Quote from: roadman on April 16, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
But not all states recognize unmarked crosswalks as legal crossing points for pedestrians.
[citation needed]
[and I think you mean points where peds have right-of-way, not legal crossing points]
Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on February 27, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
Speed limit in effect only when school is getting in and letting out. NOT 24 hours, NOT "7am-5pm on school days." (I'm glaring at you, Iowa.) ONLY when school is getting in and letting out.
Even that's better than Ohio's de facto standard of simply "during restricted hours", which quite honestly seems to be designed to trap motorists by making it unclear as to whether the 20 mph speed limit applies at any given time.
ORC 4511.21 specifies the 20 mph limit "during school recess and while children are going to or leaving school during the opening or closing hours" but it also states that schools are not required to post specific hours or use flashing lights.
I mean seriously, I'm usually the last person to complain about school zones--the idea of "slow down to reduce the chance that you accidentally hit a kid" is a very reasonable one--but I can't think of any reason how deliberately creating ambiguity like that would increase safety instead of just increasing revenue.
Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on February 27, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
My thoughts on school zones are simple.
1. Speed limit in effect only when school is getting in and letting out. NOT 24 hours, NOT "7am-5pm on school days." (I'm glaring at you, Iowa.) ONLY when school is getting in and letting out.
3. 10-15mph under the normal speed limit. There's a school zone in Maine somewhere, can't remember the highway, but it's a 55mph highway and the limit drops to 15 for the school zone. Furthermore, the school is on a road that only intersects with the 55mph highway, there are no pedestrian crossings on the highway. The school zone is posted 500 feet leading and trailing this intersection. WTF, Maine? a reduction to 45 or even 50 would do just fine, you don't need to drop the speed limit by 40mph for that.
I would add to your list "No reduced speed during recess." Most schools have fenced-in playgrounds and playground aides to prevent children from running in the street, to get a ball for instance.
Somebody out there has a really freaky view of them:
https://imgflip.com/i/1lopwo
:) :-D :biggrin: :spin:
:-D :-D
Quote from: D-Dey65 on August 30, 2017, 10:19:17 AM
Somebody out there has a really freaky view of them:
https://imgflip.com/i/1lopwo
:)
:-D :-D Never thought of it that way, but that was good!
Bumping the thread by cross-posting an item from another thread:
This past Monday, the Town of Wakefield (MA) just posted the section of Albion Street - one of the Town's major east-west streets - between Mountain Ave and Gould Street as a 20 mph school zone, effective Monday - Friday (per the tab on the sign), and re-signed all the intermediate crosswalks as school crossings. The school this is intended to benefit isn't even on Albion Street, but on a dead-end side street about a block away. Not to mention that the intersection of Albion and Broadway, which is in the middle of the new school zone, is fully signalized with crosswalks and an exclusive ped phase.
At least the Town hasn't yet implemented the town-wide '25 mph unless otherwise posted' nonsense the State Legislature foolishly enacted into law last year.
I have no problem with school zones. All school zones in Utah are 20 mph, when lights are flashing.
However, what bugs the shit out of me is when they post school zones on major arterials, often with just the small flashing lights on one side, probably obscured by trees. I can think of several major arterials with a speed limit of 40 (one of which is six lanes wide) with a school zone, and there's at least one school zone on a 45 mph street near me. If it's really a big issue for children to cross highways like this, just put in a pedestrian light and have a crossing guard there.
I don't have a problem with school zones just as long as the hours are reasonable (2005 Oregon, I'm looking at you) and it the zone is around the school property/close crosswalks only.
Also in rural Yamhill County, OR, There is a school zone in a 55 mph limit that is in the Newberg school district. Normal 7-5.