Why can't motorists pump their own gas in New Jersey?
I'm not sure if this should be in the Northeast or Off Topic board, so I put it in Off Topic.
Off Topic is right. It's because the law says we can't.
Isn't there another state that still has that law? Oregon maybe?
edit: yep, it's Oregon.
Stupid law. I avoid filling up in New Jersey. A few years back I spent a month in Princeton while handling a trial in the federal court in Trenton. I drove across to Pennsylvania for gas so I could fill the tank myself. Don't like the attendant dropping the gas cap against the paint.
I live in Jersey, and given the choice of lower prices or self-serve gas, I will take the lower prices.
I love pumping my own gas when out of state, but we're used to it and I really see nothing wrong if a person does it for us.
I don't mind the full-service gas stations. Also, I like how New Jersey's gas is cheaper than Pennsylvania and Delaware's gas.
Quote from: ilvny on February 15, 2013, 10:10:28 PM
I don't mind the full-service gas stations. Also, I like how New Jersey's gas is cheaper than Pennsylvania and Delaware's gas.
Really? Cool! :clap:
Quote from: ilvny on February 15, 2013, 10:10:28 PM
I don't mind the full-service gas stations. Also, I like how New Jersey's gas is cheaper than Pennsylvania and Delaware's gas.
Its hardly full service. Some moron sticks the nozzle in and turns the pump on. If you go late at night you have to wait for an attendant to pump gas at numerous vehicles and finally return to you. You could pump the gas faster yourself. The reason for the lower price is difference in gas taxes from state to state not necessarily self serve vs someone else pumping gas.
So, if you work as a fuel attendant in NJ, are you allowed to fill up your own car? If so, do you have to be actually on duty and at your actual workplace to do so? What credentials are required?
Quote from: empirestate on February 16, 2013, 10:44:01 AM
So, if you work as a fuel attendant in NJ, are you allowed to fill up your own car? If so, do you have to be actually on duty and at your actual workplace to do so? What credentials are required?
It's rarely ever checked. I've pumped my own gas at a station that didn't have the employee card interlock.
Quote from: Steve on February 16, 2013, 11:27:49 AM
It's rarely ever checked.
"It" meaning whatever credential is required? Which, again, is what?
Quote from: Steve on February 16, 2013, 11:27:49 AMI've pumped my own gas at a station that didn't have the employee card interlock.
I take it you are an attendant, just not at that particular station? Or does the interlock serve to keep out those who aren't employees of
any station?
Sorry if I seem a bit behind, but it seems the bits I'm most interested in are the ones you've left out, probably because they go without saying to someone from NJ! :-)
At larger stations in NJ, does a certain attendant have a certain set of pumps, while another attendant has another set of pumps? That's the way they do it in México–which means, if one driver wants to pay for two vehicles at once, he has to make sure to direct the other vehicle to a pump being manned by the same attendant.
FWIW, in the case of paying for two vehicles, I've found it advantageous to watch both pumps and do the addition myself, since gas station attendants (especially in México) aren't always the best at mental math. I did have an attendant once who carried a calculator with him. And another one once who did the math by writing it with his finger in the dust on our window.
When I was on the NJ Turnpike they had one attendant per pump at the service area.
Quote from: kphoger on February 16, 2013, 12:53:02 PM
At larger stations in NJ, does a certain attendant have a certain set of pumps, while another attendant has another set of pumps? That's the way they do it in México–which means, if one driver wants to pay for two vehicles at once, he has to make sure to direct the other vehicle to a pump being manned by the same attendant.
FWIW, in the case of paying for two vehicles, I've found it advantageous to watch both pumps and do the addition myself, since gas station attendants (especially in México) aren't always the best at mental math. I did have an attendant once who carried a calculator with him. And another one once who did the math by writing it with his finger in the dust on our window.
Large enough ones, such as Wawa and Quick Chek, has like 4 even distributed. Hess also does that.
In addition to New Jersey and Oregon, the town of Huntington, NY, and several towns in Massachusetts have bans on self-service.
It's worth noting that full service used to be the norm with gas stations - the idea of self-service gasoline didn't really take off until the 1970s, when the oil embargoes prodded gas station owners to cut costs by ditching the attendants.
It's interesting how the culture has changed. Back in the day attendants were a business courtesy and the idea of telling someone to pump their own gas was considered rude. Nowadays, nobody thinks that way.
I, for one, am perfectly capable of pumping my own gas thank you very much, and I specifically make a point of avoiding full service only stations. I don't want some random stranger touching my car, nor do I trust him with handling my credit card.
Quote from: empirestate on February 16, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 16, 2013, 11:27:49 AM
It's rarely ever checked.
"It" meaning whatever credential is required? Which, again, is what?
Meaning that you very rarely have someone actually get caught touching the gas pump illegally.
Quote
Quote from: Steve on February 16, 2013, 11:27:49 AMI've pumped my own gas at a station that didn't have the employee card interlock.
I take it you are an attendant, just not at that particular station? Or does the interlock serve to keep out those who aren't employees of any station?
Sorry if I seem a bit behind, but it seems the bits I'm most interested in are the ones you've left out, probably because they go without saying to someone from NJ! :-)
Meaning that I could just insert my credit card and pump gas like any of the other states. At most places, the employees insert a validation card first.
I don't know about Jersey, but in Oregon if you are filling up on the job (e.g. as a contractor filling up his truck for work) you're actually allowed to pump your own gas, but you'll probably get yelled at.
Quote from: Steve on February 16, 2013, 10:48:39 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 16, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 16, 2013, 11:27:49 AM
It's rarely ever checked.
"It" meaning whatever credential is required? Which, again, is what?
Meaning that you very rarely have someone actually get caught touching the gas pump illegally.
Quote
Right, but if they were to check, what would you have to present to prove that you were legal?
In checking the NJ statute, it appears you have to have a full day of supervised training and a practical "exam", after which you get a certificate that must be kept on file. Is there a standard state form for this?
Quote from: Steve on February 16, 2013, 11:27:49 AMI've pumped my own gas at a station that didn't have the employee card interlock.
I take it you are an attendant, just not at that particular station? Or does the interlock serve to keep out those who aren't employees of any station?
Sorry if I seem a bit behind, but it seems the bits I'm most interested in are the ones you've left out, probably because they go without saying to someone from NJ! :-)
Meaning that I could just insert my credit card and pump gas like any of the other states. At most places, the employees insert a validation card first.
I see, you're referring to times you've pumped your own gas without technically being allowed to do so.
But my question is, if you were authorized to pump gas, could you do so at any filling station, or only the one you work at? And if the latter, could you drive in on your off day and pump your own gas, or could only an on-duty attendant do it?
I'm specifically wondering about what the law requires, not what people are likely to be able to get away with.
I'll never buy gas in New Jersey.
NJ's law does have an exception, you are allowed to pump your own diesel fuel as the law specifies gasoline only. Another exception is private fleet pumps. I certainly don't expect someone to come out and fill up one of my job's pool cars at 6am on a dark foggy morning.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 17, 2013, 12:17:09 AM
NJ's law does have an exception, you are allowed to pump your own diesel fuel as the law specifies gasoline only. Another exception is private fleet pumps. I certainly don't expect someone to come out and fill up one of my job's pool cars at 6am on a dark foggy morning.
Logic pwning the law! :wow:
Quote from: Duke87 on February 16, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
I don't want some random stranger touching my car, nor do I trust him with handling my credit card.
Do you also avoid stores that don't have swipe-your-own credit card readers?
I think we have had this thread at least three times in the past. In each case my answer has always been the same--I disapprove of mandatory full-serve because I have owned a car which trips the shutoff prematurely when fuel is fed in at the highest possible rate, as attendants tend to do because it reduces the time required to turn over my car. It is highly burdensome to supervise the attendant to ensure that this does not happen.
Quote from: empirestate on February 16, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
I take it you are an attendant, just not at that particular station?
Yep, Steve's a pump jockey. He's putting that MIT degree and that PE certification to good use! :-D
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 17, 2013, 11:06:02 AM
I think we have had this thread at least three times in the past. In each case my answer has always been the same--I disapprove of mandatory full-serve because I have owned a car which trips the shutoff prematurely when fuel is fed in at the highest possible rate, as attendants tend to do because it reduces the time required to turn over my car. It is highly burdensome to supervise the attendant to ensure that this does not happen.
I have the opposite problem. My car tends to spew gas from the tank if you put very much more in after it clicks the nozzle off, which then makes the car smell like gasoline for several miles. Yet the attendants in México seem to be trained to squeeze every drop of gas possible into your tank.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 17, 2013, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 16, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
I take it you are an attendant, just not at that particular station?
Yep, Steve's a pump jockey. He's putting that MIT degree and that PE certification to good use! :-D
Hey, my first job out of college was pizza delivery. And I did enjoy my brief couple of stints as a gas station attendant (though not in NJ of course).
Also, Steve didn't mention his credentials in answering my question, so the only clue I had about his occupation was that he answered my question about a specific occupation with a first person anecdote. Thus, I'd say my assumption was not unfounded. :-)
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2013, 04:13:26 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 17, 2013, 11:06:02 AM
I think we have had this thread at least three times in the past. In each case my answer has always been the same--I disapprove of mandatory full-serve because I have owned a car which trips the shutoff prematurely when fuel is fed in at the highest possible rate, as attendants tend to do because it reduces the time required to turn over my car. It is highly burdensome to supervise the attendant to ensure that this does not happen.
I have the opposite problem. My car tends to spew gas from the tank if you put very much more in after it clicks the nozzle off, which then makes the car smell like gasoline for several miles. Yet the attendants in México seem to be trained to squeeze every drop of gas possible into your tank.
They just know you're going places :sombrero: :sombrero: :sombrero:
From what I can remember right off the bat, my town (and another one nearby, too) only has full service stations. I don't know if there's a municipal law regarding that or if it's just a local trend. Our gas tends to be cheaper too, but that's unrelated.
I don't mind having my car filled up by someone else, but again, that might be because I grew up and I still live here; especially in cold winter days. I also appreciate that, in some places, they will clean my windows and lights while my car is being filled up.
Still, we're pretty far from the fifties, when they'd check your fluids and kick your tires, and top them up if necessary, after cleaning your windows.
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2013, 08:41:35 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 16, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
I don't want some random stranger touching my car, nor do I trust him with handling my credit card.
Do you also avoid stores that don't have swipe-your-own credit card readers?
For purchases totaling under $20 I pay with cash, and I rarely spend more than that at a small store that wouldn't have such a reader, so that's never really an issue.
Only other place I might not be able to swipe my own card is at a restaurant, but I'm OK with that. See, my fear is that if I hand someone my card, they'll grab it and run away. A lot easier to do that if you're out in the open unsupervised and I'm sitting in my car than if you're behind a counter, I'm right in front of you, and there are lots of other people around.
It also helps that for whatever reason I perceive being a cashier to be more respectable of a job than being a pump jockey and thus I have more respect for the person doing it.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 18, 2013, 09:21:24 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2013, 08:41:35 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 16, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
I don't want some random stranger touching my car, nor do I trust him with handling my credit card.
Do you also avoid stores that don't have swipe-your-own credit card readers?
For purchases totaling under $20 I pay with cash, and I rarely spend more than that at a small store that wouldn't have such a reader, so that's never really an issue.
Only other place I might not be able to swipe my own card is at a restaurant, but I'm OK with that. See, my fear is that if I hand someone my card, they'll grab it and run away. A lot easier to do that if you're out in the open unsupervised and I'm sitting in my car than if you're behind a counter, I'm right in front of you, and there are lots of other people around.
It also helps that for whatever reason I perceive being a cashier to be more respectable of a job than being a pump jockey and thus I have more respect for the person doing it.
What's the difference in wages between a gas pump attendant and a restaurant server? I'd think it easier for the server to disappear out the back entrance after picking up your card from the table, completely out of sight to you.
FWIW, I've only ever paid cash for full-serve gas, since most Pemex stations don't take credit.
Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2013, 11:07:23 AM
What's the difference in wages between a gas pump attendant and a restaurant server? I'd think it easier for the server to disappear out the back entrance after picking up your card from the table, completely out of sight to you.
I'm talking about a cashier at a diner where you go up to the register to pay. You hand the guy your card and he swipes it, then hands it back to you. Restaurants where the waitress takes your card while you stay at the table...
that I don't like! I pay with cash in such circumstances.
For whatever reason I do not like paying for gas with cash. Partly because the purchase is large enough that I often do not have enough cash to cover it without draining the contents of my wallet, partly because it just seems inconvenient to either have to go inside or wait for the guy to make change.
But even beyond all concerns about financial security and who handles my car, there is the simple fact that, on a basic level, I
hate when someone does for me some simple task which I am perfectly capable of performing myself. It is a direct affront to my independence and self-sufficiency. As such, if I am not allowed to pump my own gas, it is insulting and emasculating.
For much the same reason, I refuse to hand my keys to a valet and avoid patronizing establishments that employ them. I am perfectly capable of parking my own car, thanks.
I hate paying inside for gas because I usually don't know how much it will cost to completely fill the tank. I won't use anything where payment is based on a "guess how much you need" system unless it's unavoidable; this includes parking meters.
Quote from: deanej on February 19, 2013, 10:34:48 PM
I hate paying inside for gas because I usually don't know how much it will cost to completely fill the tank. I won't use anything where payment is based on a "guess how much you need" system unless it's unavoidable; this includes parking meters.
One perk of NJ's full serve is that paying with cash is easier. They fill the car and you pay the total, no prepaying in a C-Store. Paying cash is recommended in NJ nowadays since its usually 8-10 cents a gallon cheaper, for the most part stations here started split pricing in 2005.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 19, 2013, 09:20:03 PM
on a basic level, I hate when someone does for me some simple task which I am perfectly capable of performing myself. It is a direct affront to my independence and self-sufficiency. As such, if I am not allowed to pump my own gas, it is insulting and emasculating.
For much the same reason, I refuse to hand my keys to a valet and avoid patronizing establishments that employ them. I am perfectly capable of parking my own car, thanks.
Interesting. I have the opposite reaction to an establishment offering to do something for me that I'm perfectly capable of doing myself. I'm pleased.
At a restaurant, I'm happy when they bring me my food rather than having me serve myself from the counter, and when they clean up after me rather than expecting me to bus my own table. Yes, I'm capable of walking my food back to my own table; yes, I'm capable of throwing my own trash away; but it shows respect to me, the customer, that they offer to do it for me.
I avoid the self-checkout lanes at the grocery store for similar reasons. I know plenty of people prefer them, but I find them insulting. Sometimes, when the lines are long, a management-type person will direct me over to a self-checkout lane; I'll go, but I just stand there as if it were a regular checkout lane, because I didn't sign up to do their job for free.
When I go to the bank, I prefer to go inside and deal with a teller, although I've started getting used to the ATM. But who decided I only want $20 bills, anyway? I still prefer to be asked the question, "˜How would you like that back?'
As others have mentioned, it used to be that gas station attendants would wash your windshield, check your oil, give your tires a kick–out of respect to you, the customer. Now they've reached the point where they barely realize you exist. Heck, some gas stations don't even
have attendants. I remember our family trying desperately several years ago to find a gas station in Nevada that actually had someone working there, because we needed to pay cash. So I quite enjoy filling up at Pemex, where I don't even have to step out of the car if I don't want to–and where there's a decent chance someone will wash the windshield while waiting for the pump to click off. So many establishments these days treat me like a number on a report, rather than a person of value, that it's refreshing to be accorded some respect.
the reason I do not like self-checkout lanes is because they do not work all that well. Home Depot is a great example of a store where I end up needing human assistance anyway.
For spray paint, I have to be 18 (the idiocy that law is a completely different topic!) and I can't just swipe my license, which would be the intuitive solution.
sometimes I'm buying something without a bar code - like a single 9c washer. I'm not sure what they expect me to do in that situation - steal it?
Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2013, 09:16:57 AMInteresting. I have the opposite reaction to an establishment offering to do something for me that I'm perfectly capable of doing myself. I'm pleased.
I don't have that reaction as a rule; for me it is very situational. When a business offers service, I am typically aware of two things. First, as a deaf person I have the added difficulty of managing another person. Second, I am keenly aware that by creating an expectation that patrons will be served instead of serving themselves, the business makes it easier for itself to control the patrons in various ways.
In a sit-down restaurant the control issue is not prominent because the customer goes in with no expectation that the process will be any different and is prepared to buy the service as well as the actual food. But in another setting, such as a state DOT office where you would like to obtain and retrieve copies of electronic construction plans, it can be extremely awkward to have someone at your elbow observing what you are doing.
QuoteI avoid the self-checkout lanes at the grocery store for similar reasons. I know plenty of people prefer them, but I find them insulting. Sometimes, when the lines are long, a management-type person will direct me over to a self-checkout lane; I'll go, but I just stand there as if it were a regular checkout lane, because I didn't sign up to do their job for free.
If I have a lot of groceries and have had the forethought to bring the cloth bags with me, I will typically go through an attended checkout, because it is faster. But at the same time I am aware that, because the clerk and bagger will not actually be eating any fresh food I buy, fruit is more likely to get bruised, vegetables are more likely to wind up in the bottom of the bag with canned goods on top, egg crates won't necessarily be set down gently in the bag, etc. I also feel under a lot of social pressure to pay with a credit card in order to minimize delay to anyone who is in the line behind me. In the self-checkout area there is typically only one queue feeding multiple checkout stands, so the responsibility of clearing a station quickly does not fall entirely on my shoulders. I typically pay cash at the self-checkout and use it as a place to get rid of loose change. (In Britain I had less of a bias toward using self-checkouts to get rid of loose change because VAT is not charged on most groceries and is included in the price of those where VAT is charged, which meant I could know exactly what I had to pay by keeping a running total in my head, and get my money ready before my purchases were actually rung up. Kansas charges sales tax on food and the tax is not included in sticker prices, plus there are typically coupons and loyalty card offers which complicate mental computation of the final bill, so I cannot guess what I have to pay down to the last cent before I start ringing up my purchases. This means I need to avoid a checkout lane where a clerk will be tapping his or her feet while I fish coins out of my coin purse.)
QuoteWhen I go to the bank, I prefer to go inside and deal with a teller, although I've started getting used to the ATM. But who decided I only want $20 bills, anyway? I still prefer to be asked the question, "˜How would you like that back?'
For a deaf person, the less oral communication, the better--it saves having to lipread, keep your eyes on the teller in case he or she talks to you (not all that easy to do without looking like you are giving them the evil eye), asking to have things written down when you don't have enough context to lip-read, etc.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2013, 11:27:51 AM
I am aware that, because the clerk and bagger will not actually be eating any fresh food I buy, fruit is more likely to get bruised, vegetables are more likely to wind up in the bottom of the bag with canned goods on top, egg crates won't necessarily be set down gently in the bag, etc.
I try to keep a running list in my head of who is good at bagging groceries and who is not, and then I choose my checkout lane appropriately. In the absence of any bagger in my lane, I've come to the point of bagging my own groceries, because I'm rather picky (like you) about how things are bagged, and I don't assume the cashier is very good at it. I'm not thrilled about bagging by own, but I'd rather do it right than end up with sixteen half-full bags that fall over their contents make an upside-down pyramid.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2013, 11:27:51 AM
In a sit-down restaurant the control issue is not prominent because the customer goes in with no expectation that the process will be any different and is prepared to buy the service as well as the actual food. But in another setting, such as a state DOT office where you would like to obtain and retrieve copies of electronic construction plans, it can be extremely awkward to have someone at your elbow observing what you are doing.
Is it not possible to say to that DOT employee, "˜No, thanks, I've got it on my own'? Similar to answering no to a department store salesman who asks, "˜Can I help you find anything?'
As for full-serve gas stations–I've just always assumed the requirement was for safety reasons. That is, the government or corporate leadership feels it is unsafe to allow Joe Schmoe to pump his own gas. After all, I've seen the effects of someone leaving it on auto, walking away, and coming back to find a pool of gasoline on the ground (a flammable puddle and an irate customer); and the effects of someone driving away without taking the nozzle out of the tank (the entire pump pulled down to the ground, since the breakaway apparently didn't work).
The grocery store I use has a barcode-scanning gun you can use to scan your groceries as you shop. I quite like it–I scan them and bag them as I go around the store and it's a lot faster when it comes time to check out since I just go to the shortest line regardless of whether it's a self-checkout or a staffed lane. Since everything is already scanned, all I have to do is scan a special "end of order" barcode, enter the number of reusable bags, and scan any coupons (also, if I'm buying beer or wine an employee has to tell the system I'm old enough). The gun also offers discounts that aren't offered through coupons or via the "loyalty card."
I much prefer it because since I have to put the stuff in the cart anyway, the added time to scan the barcode and put it in the bag is MINIMAL; it also solves the issue others have noted about how the employees don't always do a particularly intelligent job of bagging things. I've found some of them seem to flat-out resent reusable grocery bags, I guess because they actually have to think about how to arrange things instead of just dumping one item per plastic bag. I use the reusable bags not out of environmental concern or because I get 5¢ off for each bag, but rather because they hold more stuff and are a lot more durable than the plastic bags.
The way the scanner works is that when you enter the store they have this display to one side and you scan your card and take the scanner that lights up:
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The scanner sits in a little holster-type thing on the cart:
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When you're done you scan this barcode at the register (they've since replaced the sign with a more durable one):
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Every once in a great while (it's happened to me twice) when you go to check out the system dings at you and tells you to go to a staffed checkout. When that happens it's the system requiring an employee to audit your purchase–i.e., to scan some of the items to confirm that you aren't trying to cheat by putting stuff in your bag without scanning it.
From talking to friends I've learned that the availability of the self-scanning system varies by neighborhood in the DC area, and it seems that the stores in lower-income or inner-city neighborhoods do not have this.
Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2013, 11:45:26 AMIs it not possible to say to that DOT employee, "˜No, thanks, I've got it on my own'? Similar to answering no to a department store salesman who asks, "˜Can I help you find anything?'
Actually, after thinking about it (while shoveling the two inches of snow that has accumulated so far), I have concluded this example is bad because it conflates two distinct issues: regulating access to unpublished information that is part of the public record, and controlling how members of the public interact with the customer-facing part of the organization. It is the second that is under discussion in this thread.
In regard to your suggested scenario--saying "Thanks, but I'm fine" when a sales clerk approaches and offers help--I actually prefer not to have to worry about being approached in this way. I always feel a little on edge when going to Best Buy, for example, because it is apparently corporate policy for sales-floor employees to approach people who step into a department and ask if they can help. I always refuse, because (1) it is harder for me to communicate with a sales clerk than it is to get the information I need from reading product labels, and (2) I have no reason to expect disinterested advice (I don't know if Best Buy sales staff works on commission, though I suspect employee turnover is just high enough that organizational loyalty does not necessarily incentivize the clerks to promote the high-margin alternatives to the customer). But until I have "checked into" a department by saying "No thanks" to a sales clerk, I feel like I have to have eyes in the back of my head and be on alert for an ambush.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 20, 2013, 12:48:56 PMFrom talking to friends I've learned that the availability of the self-scanning system varies by neighborhood in the DC area, and it seems that the stores in lower-income or inner-city neighborhoods do not have this.
We don't have scan-as-you-go in Wichita, to the best of my knowledge, although I think we have "price check" scanners. What we have instead are self-checkouts located at one end of the checkout lanes, near the front door. These machines use weight sensors to ensure that nothing is bagged unless it has been scanned.
Self-checkouts started appearing in Dillons stores in Wichita at approximately the same time they appeared in Sainsburys, Tesco, and the Co-op in Oxford; in fact, until Dillons upgraded its equipment recently, Dillons and the Co-op used to have precisely the same model of self-checkout machine, aside from the components needed to handle different national currencies.
To my knowledge there is no audit of type for fresh produce (so, for example, you could try to cheat the store by ringing up garlic bulbs or peppers as potatoes), but minute discrepancies in the registered weight can generate "Unexpected item in bagging area" error messages which can be cleared only by a store employee. I observed that such messages were cleared much more readily in a Wichita Dillons, which had one employee whose sole responsibility it was to supervise the self-checkout, than in an Oxford supermarket, where the number of self-checkouts per dedicated employee might be higher or the employee might be expected to split his time between the self-checkouts and other responsibilities. (It is often argued that British retailers make more efficient use of fixed assets than American ones. I don't disagree with this claim, but in my experience the greater efficiency results from asset sweating and intentionally sparse employee coverage, which the customer perceives as shabby premises and poor service respectively.)
At the Dillons where I shop regularly (13th and West), the self-checkouts were recently replaced. The first-generation equipment had a tendency to eat coins on both sides of the Atlantic, but this was a lot worse on the US side because we have some coin denominations which are very similar in weight (e.g., dime and cent) and all our coins are round--British coinage is better designed for mechanical sorting and, in my experience, is minted to rather tighter tolerances. Four first-generation "coin-eaters" have now been replaced with six second-generation machines, which so far have distinguished among dimes and pennies (even very dirty ones, with tarry deposits) flawlessly.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2013, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2013, 11:45:26 AMIs it not possible to say to that DOT employee, "˜No, thanks, I've got it on my own'? Similar to answering no to a department store salesman who asks, "˜Can I help you find anything?'
Actually, after thinking about it (while shoveling the two inches of snow that has accumulated so far), I have concluded this example is bad because it conflates two distinct issues: regulating access to unpublished information that is part of the public record, and controlling how members of the public interact with the customer-facing part of the organization. It is the second that is under discussion in this thread.
In regard to your suggested scenario--saying "Thanks, but I'm fine" when a sales clerk approaches and offers help--I actually prefer not to have to worry about being approached in this way. I always feel a little on edge when going to Best Buy, for example, because it is apparently corporate policy for sales-floor employees to approach people who step into a department and ask if they can help. I always refuse, because (1) it is harder for me to communicate with a sales clerk than it is to get the information I need from reading product labels, and (2) I have no reason to expect disinterested advice (I don't know if Best Buy sales staff works on commission, though I suspect employee turnover is just high enough that organizational loyalty does not necessarily incentivize the clerks to promote the high-margin alternatives to the customer). But until I have "checked into" a department by saying "No thanks" to a sales clerk, I feel like I have to have eyes in the back of my head and be on alert for an ambush.
Sorry, I really meant that saying "˜No thanks' in one scenario is similar to saying "˜No thanks' in the other scenario. I didn't mean to imply the scenarios themselves were necessarily comparable.
Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2013, 01:53:43 PMSorry, I really meant that saying "˜No thanks' in one scenario is similar to saying "˜No thanks' in the other scenario. I didn't mean to imply the scenarios themselves were necessarily comparable.
For the avoidance of doubt--I was criticizing my own initial choice of example (looking at plans in person at a state DOT office).
My underlying point is that having to interact with a customer service apparatus (which is what a "full service" scenario is all about) is in itself a constraint on free movement and can be fashioned into a tool to impose even heavier constraints, depending on the organization's motivations. In some places and contexts, a reply of "No thanks" to an offer of service does not necessarily have the intended effect of dismissal, e.g. when the question is asked by a security guard who is trying to usher you off the premises politely.
Another scenario is when a waiter stops by your table and asks, "Is everything all right?" In many cases the real question is, "Will you release this cover so we can seat someone else?" You can say Yes, but if the restaurant is operating in a competitive environment and there are people waiting to be seated, you can be faced with a sequence of follow-up questions--"Would you like to order dessert?" "Would you like to see the dessert cart?"--and so on until you get the message, pay up, and go. (There are some towns where I hate going out to eat because revenue per cover per unit time is watched so closely. Dallas is a classic example: they put down too much food and expect you to be gone within half an hour.)
QuoteOnly other place I might not be able to swipe my own card is at a restaurant, but I'm OK with that. See, my fear is that if I hand someone my card, they'll grab it and run away. A lot easier to do that if you're out in the open unsupervised and I'm sitting in my car than if you're behind a counter, I'm right in front of you, and there are lots of other people around.
You've never worked in the service industry, have you?
I've worked with some shady characters and would be utterly shocked if any of them would run off with your credit card- these people deal with hundreds of credit cards a week. If you think your credit card is special, I don't know what to tell you.
And working behind the counter...hoo- if I wanted to commit credit card theft from behind a counter that's way easier than trying to grab it and run away with it. I might not be able to get the physical card, but I can get the information off of it very easily without you ever knowing. Many credit card terminals are just USB devices on a windows machine- if I open notepad or something and swipe your card, I've got the number now and then I can get the expiration and card security by looking at it without you ever knowing. But again, you're dealing with hundreds of credit cards and while it's a touch less risky than grabbing your physical card and running away with it, you'd still likely get caught so 99.9% of service workers aren't going to think that's worth it.
Gas pump attendant is still gainful employment- most gainfully employed people are at least sort of honest, and know better than to risk their jobs which pay them money for a few bucks. Of service workers I've met, this is especially true of them because if they lose their jobs, that's it. Their job is the only thing keeping them not living in a box- they're not going to risk that.
As a whole, low-paid service workers are some of the most honest people I've ever met. The vast majority of them understand the value of a dollar better than the rest of us- these are folks who work terrible hours with little opportunity for time off, barely make ends meet, work a lot physically harder than anybody who sits at a desk, and often have to put up with shitty work environments for the privilege. They have no desire to take your money, and it always saddens me to see people who distrust them just because they're poor.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2013, 02:49:55 PM(There are some towns where I hate going out to eat because revenue per cover per unit time is watched so closely. Dallas is a classic example: they put down too much food and expect you to be gone within half an hour.)
then there is the exact opposite. "damn it, the waiters have completely forgotten about us."
I love self checkouts. You don't have to deal with a person, and I can be grumpy at times and it's nice not having to small talk. You do have to figure out the quirks at the self checkouts but once you have that down, they're a piece of cake.
Quote from: Stalin on February 20, 2013, 03:23:18 PM
I love self checkouts. You don't have to deal with a person, and I can be grumpy at times and it's nice not having to small talk. You do have to figure out the quirks at the self checkouts but once you have that down, they're a piece of cake.
One other benefit: You can't pay by check at the self-checkout (at least not at any I've ever seen). I hate it at the grocery store when you get stuck behind a check-payer because invariably it's a woman who acts shocked that she actually has to pay and doesn't start rummaging through her enormous pocketbook to find her checkbook until the cashier has finished scanning all the groceries, which means everyone has to wait while she then fills in all the blanks on the check (whereas someone with common sense would have pulled out the checkbook and filled in the date and the store's name and signed it so that all that remained was to fill in the amounts).
I hardly ever write checks anymore, but whenever I'm at the grocery store I always see a surprising number of people who still do.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2013, 01:49:28 PMWe don't have scan-as-you-go in Wichita, to the best of my knowledge, although I think we have "price check" scanners. What we have instead are self-checkouts located at one end of the checkout lanes, near the front door. These machines use weight sensors to ensure that nothing is bagged unless it has been scanned.
Self-checkouts started appearing in Dillons stores in Wichita at approximately the same time they appeared in Sainsburys, Tesco, and the Co-op in Oxford; in fact, until Dillons upgraded its equipment recently, Dillons and the Co-op used to have precisely the same model of self-checkout machine, aside from the components needed to handle different national currencies.
....
I dislike the "weight sensor" style of self-checkout because they almost always balk if you bring a reusable grocery bag. It invariably says there's an unexpected item in the bagging area and you then have to get the attendant to override the system. In theory if you scan the first item and set it in the reusable bag as you put it into the bagging area it may work, but it doesn't always. The only one I've seen that doesn't have this problem is the one at Wal-Mart, where there's a button on the touchscreen that says "I brought my own bag." I try never to go to Wal-Mart if I can help it, though (mainly because it's always a zoo).
The Giant store I patronize has a self-checkout system with a conveyer belt that looks similar to other lanes except that it has some kind of detection halfway down the belt. Your items must pass through that detection area. This is one place where the self-checkout can backfire if you use reusable bags: Often the attendant, trying to be helpful, will come along and start sticking your groceries in plastic bags to save you some time. Of course, if you use the scanner gun I described earlier you don't have to put any items at all on the belt or in a bagging area.
I have to say I sometimes take a perverse enjoyment from getting on line at the "12 items or fewer" line when I have four bags containing 30 or 40 items total but I've used the scanner gun. I always expect someone to confront me for having "too many" items. Hasn't happened yet, though–the only time anyone was baffled was when I went through the staffed express line and a woman behind me wanted to know why I wasn't putting my groceries on the checkout belt.
BTW, the other thing I like about the self-checkout at the Giant is that they occasionally have a coupon that gets you an extra 300 gas points if you spend $50. The self-checkout line doesn't make you insert that particular coupon into the coupon box, meaning you can re-use it. That means if you need to buy over $100 worth of stuff and you use the scanner gun it's very easy to watch the total as you shop and then as soon as you top $50, or maybe a bit more as a buffer for coupons and the like, you can go check out, use the gas point coupon, put the groceries in the car, and come back in and finish your shopping with another $50 of stuff for which you use the gas point coupon again. Or you can just split it up over two days to make it less obvious what you're doing. The gas points add up! 300 points gets you 30¢ off per gallon at the Shell station. This past Monday Ms1995hoo and I filled up two cars on one transaction because we had 1,000 gas points–$1.00 off per gallon and between the two cars we put in something like 22.6 gallons. To get us back on-topic, that's another reason I prefer self-serve gas to full-serve: At a full-serve station it's quite unlikely we'd have been able to fill up two cars on the one transaction without the attendant resetting the pump in between. With the self-serve I simply pulled my car up a bit further and told Ms1995hoo to back up to the pump at a 90-degree angle so that the pump could easily reach both cars without us having to move one.
At the Walmart Neighborhood Market that I shop at, you must put your item in the bag or on the "scale" next to the bags before you can scan another item. I've seen others scan the item then put it directly into the basket or put it in a bag but not leave it in there long enough and an error message pops up. The secret is to wait until the "Finish and pay" icon on the touchscreen flashes, then you can put your item in the shopping cart. Not everybody understands this, and this is the reason that many don't like the scanners. There's a Food Pyramid just down the road from Walmart that uses self checkouts with the same software as Walmart, but they are buggy and don't work half the time so when I go there I just go through a regular cashier.
QuoteThis past Monday Ms1995hoo and I filled up two cars on one transaction.
Well that's stealing
QuoteNo. The discount can only be used on one vehicle, limited to the tank's capacity not to exceed 35 gallons.
http://www.giantfood.com/savings/shell_program.htm
Quote from: corco on February 20, 2013, 03:55:05 PM
QuoteThis past Monday Ms1995hoo and I filled up two cars on one transaction.
Well that's stealing
It's not stealing. We paid for all the gas (something like $71.50 total).
Quote from: corco on February 20, 2013, 03:55:05 PM
QuoteNo. The discount can only be used on one vehicle, limited to the tank's capacity not to exceed 35 gallons.
http://www.giantfood.com/savings/shell_program.htm
Interesting. Didn't know they had that rule. Well, the attendant at the Shell station we use saw what we were doing and didn't seem to care. Her computer would have shown that we were using gas points.
If I give you $2 for a widget and take the widget and you're selling it for $100, that's stealing- you paid less than you were supposed to for gas in one of the cars.
But yeah, it's a pretty obvious abuse of the program- I know of instances where the police would get called in Arizona when that would happen with repeat offenders.
When you do that, it disincentivizes the grocery store or whatever from offering fuel rewards because it costs them more money, which is bad for everyone.
But, if the attendant saw it and turned the other cheek then I guess that's that.
Essentially, then, when the 300-point coupon is available, the way to do it is: Go to store, buy $50 of groceries, then go fill the tank. Next day, take the other car, buy $50 worth of groceries, then go fill that car's tank. Nothing prohibiting that, as far as I can see.
Interestingly, though, the "Terms and Conditions" page (as opposed to the FAQ page) says this:
QuoteFuel savings are limited to 35 gallons of fuel per vehicle per purchase, or limits placed on your payment card by your financial institution, which may be lower.
"35 gallons of fuel per vehicle per purchase" can reasonably be read in the sense that if you put fewer than 35 gallons of fuel into two vehicles, you're within the rules. (Apparently what they meant was "up to 35 gallons of fuel for a single vehicle in one purchase, not to exceed the available capacity of the fuel tank." That's not what the terms and conditions say, though. If you really get technical, when they say "limited to the tank's capacity not to exceed 35 gallons" you'd be entitled to use a gas can if, say, you have a 17.1-gallon tank but your car only needs 13 gallons–you could use the gas can for 4.1 gallons to reach "the tank's capacity." Pain in the butt to do that, though.)
Heh, interesting. That does pretty clearly sound like they mean multiple cars are legal. In fact, I even get from 35 gallons per vehicle per purchase that you could put 34 gallons of fuel each into 1000 cars on one discount. That's the worst worded thing I've ever seen.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 20, 2013, 09:50:17 AM
the reason I do not like self-checkout lanes is because they do not work all that well. Home Depot is a great example of a store where I end up needing human assistance anyway.
For spray paint, I have to be 18 (the idiocy that law is a completely different topic!) and I can't just swipe my license, which would be the intuitive solution.
sometimes I'm buying something without a bar code - like a single 9c washer. I'm not sure what they expect me to do in that situation - steal it?
Oh, thank you! I have now realized why it makes some sort of sense for Home Despot to package 8 screws in a bubble pack. It's so it can be self checked out with the barcode. Too bad pretty much every checkout at the self checkout ends with one or more supervisors coming over to make the machine work right.
Quote from: kkt on February 20, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
Oh, thank you! I have now realized why it makes some sort of sense for Home Despot to package 8 screws in a bubble pack. It's so it can be self checked out with the barcode. Too bad pretty much every checkout at the self checkout ends with one or more supervisors coming over to make the machine work right.
there are some products which I cannot find in blister pack form. the washer in question, for example.
The Dillons stores in Wichita have long had a fuel rewards program which lends itself to a similar abuse because the reward payout is a set amount off the per-gallon price in a single fuel-dispensing cycle, which gives customers an incentive to try to fill up multiple vehicles in the same cycle. Dillons, unlike Giant, does not ban this, but the pumps reset automatically if fuel has not been dispensed in a certain amount of time (about 40 seconds), so unless you have the two cars set up to dash the nozzle from one tank opening to the other, you lose the reward on the second tank. The nozzles are also not long enough to reach both tank openings on two vehicles parked back to front. 1995hoo's method, which is to park one car at a right angle to the other, can obstruct the apron, and greatly inconveniences other customers if it is done in the aisle between two ranks of pumps.
Until Dillons started allowing customers the option of taking a smaller discount on one fillup to save a discount for the next tank, people would often rush to move their cars within the same fuel-dispensing cycle, which frankly was a recipe for disaster. I don't think the discount rollover option altogether removes the incentive to try to fill up multiple tanks on a single fuel-dispense cycle. I think it should instead become unlawful for grocery stores to structure fuel rewards as a flat discount on an arbitrary number of gallons (whether pumped into one tank or several). Instead, the discount should be a fixed percentage of the cost of groceries purchased using the loyalty card, and the customer should have the option of using up any proportion of it on any fillup. It should never expire (there should never be a rush to use up fuel points by the end of the month, as often happens under some reward programs).
That's actually a good idea- with a minimum of $100 purchase or whatever, you get $5 off your next fillup. I do wonder if that would be more expensive, though. "5 cents off a gallon!" sounds a lot more meaningful than "$.75 off your next fillup!" so they'd have to bump those numbers up somehow to make them more enticing.
I guess the trick would be to raise the reward amount to a number that sounds appealing and then raise the amount that needs to be spent proportionally.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2013, 04:53:05 PM
.... 1995hoo's method, which is to park one car at a right angle to the other, can obstruct the apron, and greatly inconveniences other customers if it is done in the aisle between two ranks of pumps.
....
Yeah, when we've done this we make a point of using one of the pumps on the end for precisely the reason you cite. The Shell station we use has a large amount of space beyond the pumps at either end.
Quote from: Stalin on February 20, 2013, 03:52:41 PM
At the Walmart Neighborhood Market that I shop at, you must put your item in the bag or on the "scale" next to the bags before you can scan another item. I've seen others scan the item then put it directly into the basket or put it in a bag but not leave it in there long enough and an error message pops up. The secret is to wait until the "Finish and pay" icon on the touchscreen flashes, then you can put your item in the shopping cart.
Here, the Walmart scanners also have red and green LED lights on them. Scan an item, and the LEDs go red until they're done weighing. It goes back to green when you can scan the next item.
Some self-checkouts have a little cup for accepting change, like a mini toll basket, instead of the slot like vending machines have. If I've accumulated a lot of change while shopping at other places that day, I will sometimes dump it all in the cup, then pay the remaining amount with a card. That's something you can't do with a human cashier, since they would have to count it all and you would understandably get some dirty looks for it. You can also do things like pay for part of your purchase with a different card (like if you have a business card and want to put your non-business purchases on your personal account) more easily.
Quote from: corco on February 20, 2013, 05:02:18 PMThat's actually a good idea- with a minimum of $100 purchase or whatever, you get $5 off your next fillup. I do wonder if that would be more expensive, though. "5 cents off a gallon!" sounds a lot more meaningful than "$.75 off your next fillup!" so they'd have to bump those numbers up somehow to make them more enticing.
Yeah, I suspect the "X off a gallon" structure evolved because it was easier to promote. But actually you could continue to advertise "X off a gallon" while moving to a fixed-percentage structure, as long as there were fine print: "assumes a typical fillup of 15 gallons" or something like that.
QuoteI guess the trick would be to raise the reward amount to a number that sounds appealing and then raise the amount that needs to be spent proportionally.
That is one way to do it, or you could simply say, "Each $100 spent on groceries between this date and that date gives you a $7.50 discount on fuel," and let it be understood that fractions of $100 buy equal fractions of the $7.50 discount (no need to make the obesity crisis worse by leading people to think they actually have to buy $100 worth of food in order to get any part of the discount). You can have a base discount percentage, which you raise for short periods of time for special promotions and the like.
(As an aside, I wonder why supermarkets continue to advertise discounts as BOGOF. They don't even interpret this condition consistently. At Dillons and other arms of the Kroger octopus, BOGOFs and other multibuy offers only reduce the average price per unit--you do not have to buy the advertised number of units in order to get the discounted average price per unit, though Dillons does not stress this in its advertising because it does not want to encourage customers to buy
fewer units. At a typical British supermarket, however, you have to buy the specified number of units in order to access the discount. A BOGOF on shampoo for £2.50 does not mean that just one bottle of shampoo costs £1.25; it only means that you pay £2.50 whether you get one or two bottles.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 20, 2013, 05:08:09 PMYeah, when we've done this we make a point of using one of the pumps on the end for precisely the reason you cite. The Shell station we use has a large amount of space beyond the pumps at either end.
I figured you might be doing something like that, and one advantage of contracting with an oil-company chain for discounts on fuel is that customers can access their typical station layouts, which include an extra-wide aisle between the pumps and the shop. Dillons, on the other hand, run their own filling stations and each tends to be located in a corner of the parking lot where it is "boxed in" by circulating aisles.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2013, 06:06:24 PM
(As an aside, I wonder why supermarkets continue to advertise discounts as BOGOF. They don't even interpret this condition consistently. At Dillons and other arms of the Kroger octopus, BOGOFs and other multibuy offers only reduce the average price per unit--you do not have to buy the advertised number of units in order to get the discounted average price per unit, though Dillons does not stress this in its advertising because it does not want to encourage customers to buy fewer units. At a typical British supermarket, however, you have to buy the specified number of units in order to access the discount. A BOGOF on shampoo for £2.50 does not mean that just one bottle of shampoo costs £1.25; it only means that you pay £2.50 whether you get one or two bottles.)
I've always been irritated by inconsistencies in this.
I worked for a Farm Fresh store when I lived in Virginia, which is one of the Supervalu brands. Whenever we had anything buy-one-get-one-free, the discount would be per unit, i.e. it would actually be two at half-price. Now that I've moved to Massachusetts and occasionally shop at Shaw's, which is another Supervalu brand, I've found that they usually require you to buy the specified number, which can be very annoying (my mother recently complained of going and buying something that lasts her several weeks so she would never need more than one of, and already had her money counted out, expecting to pay half-price for it, only to have the cashier inform her that she needed to buy a second one to get the discount).
If it lasts several weeks, though, that means it's probably not perishable. It would be wise to go ahead and buy the second one to take advantage of the deal, and just keep it in storage until you run out of the first one.
Quote from: corco on February 20, 2013, 02:54:45 PM
I've worked with some shady characters and would be utterly shocked if any of them would run off with your credit card- these people deal with hundreds of credit cards a week. If you think your credit card is special, I don't know what to tell you.
I am well aware that my fear is not realistic. But it's nonetheless permanently ingrained in my head on an instinctual level to keep all my possessions close to me and secure lest someone decide to grab something from me and run away with it. Bullies did that sort of thing to me a lot when I was a kid.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2013, 06:06:24 PM
As an aside, I wonder why supermarkets continue to advertise discounts as BOGOF. They don't even interpret this condition consistently. At Dillons and other arms of the Kroger octopus, BOGOFs and other multibuy offers only reduce the average price per unit--you do not have to buy the advertised number of units in order to get the discounted average price per unit, though Dillons does not stress this in its advertising because it does not want to encourage customers to buy fewer units. At a typical British supermarket, however, you have to buy the specified number of units in order to access the discount. A BOGOF on shampoo for £2.50 does not mean that just one bottle of shampoo costs £1.25; it only means that you pay £2.50 whether you get one or two bottles.
Or, even more literally, it means you get two even if you only want one.
I have never seen this or the "1 or 2 cost the same" implementation. I have, however, seen plenty of cases where something is advertised as "2 for $5.00", and it's $3.99 if you only buy one, rather than $5.00 or $2.50.
On this note you also have the annoyance that stores will put a cap on how many of something you can buy when they put it on sale. I remember trying to buy four boxes of pasta once when they were on sale and the cashier told me I was only allowed to buy two.
The next day I went back and bought four more, and used the self-checkout. While it did not stop me from scanning more than two, none of them scanned at the advertized sale price. I didn't care, I eat a lot of pasta and I wasn't intentionally binge buying it just because it was on sale. Nor will I cry over an extra quarter a box, or whatever it was.
That, actually, is another reason I like using the self checkout - nobody argues with it. Too many times I've been in line behind some old lady at the register complaining that her prunes scanned at $3.99 when the flyer in the paper said they were $3.79, forcing everyone behind her to wait a good 5-10 minutes while the cashier goes and gets the manager to handle things so the lady can save 20 cents. This sort of shit never happened growing up in Connecticut. It happens all the goddamned time in Queens. (yeah, yeah, I know, the average household income where I grew up was much higher than it is where I now live, but still!)
The quantity cap is so people don't go crazy Extreme Couponer on them and buy the whole stock out because it's on sale. Not only do they not have any in stock for anyone else then, it defeats the point of the sale, since part of the reason for putting certain items on sale is to get to you into the store so you might buy non-sale items, and perhaps to try that brand if you haven't before(hoping to earn your loyalty to that brand even when it's not on sale). The store might actually end up losing money without the cap, since the sale price might be at or below cost.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2013, 07:34:46 PM
I have never seen this or the "1 or 2 cost the same" implementation. I have, however, seen plenty of cases where something is advertised as "2 for $5.00", and it's $3.99 if you only buy one, rather than $5.00 or $2.50.
Its all marketing. People think they have to buy Y of item to get the "$X.XX for Y" price. That is not the case unless the price tag is specifically marked "Must buy Y for sale price". The local Shop-Rite does this all the time in their weekly sale circular. For example, I have bought one unit of an item marked "3 for $10.00" and only paid $3.33 many times.
In that case, you actually get charged a penny more if you buy three. :P
At the store where we shop, "buy one get one free" means exactly that (no discount if you just buy one), but "two for $6.00" means if you buy one you pay $3.00.
There's a sign by the self-scanner telling people to scan both items in the BOGOF situation. It's for inventory control purposes. Makes sense to me.
So when I pass through NJ this summer on my motorcycle and stop for fuel I have to let some careless gasoline pumping technician either spill and/or dribble gasoline all over my painted tank and let it run down on my seat or maybe engine? :ded:
BTW I bet NJ has a certification requirement for this position. College credit? Also the pump will shut off at about half full on my MC. Oh, I have two tanks will I have to get into line again to fill the second one or is a second tank illegal in NJ? :hmmm:
QuoteOne of the biggest lies out there about flat plates is that they increase visibility.
Wait, somebody argued that? The Idaho sheriffs came out publicly against the lack of visibility when Idaho switched to flat plates (making some of the most beautiful plates in the country some of the ugliest)- and it's definitely true. I can typically read an embossed Idaho plate from twice as far as a flat Idaho plate.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 20, 2013, 10:55:25 PM
Its all marketing. People think they have to buy Y of item to get the "$X.XX for Y" price. That is not the case unless the price tag is specifically marked "Must buy Y for sale price". The local Shop-Rite does this all the time in their weekly sale circular. For example, I have bought one unit of an item marked "3 for $10.00" and only paid $3.33 many times.
in some places this is the way it is, but not universally. I have heard that in Ohio it is like that by state law. in California, it definitely isn't, because I see plenty of items which are sold as "$3.19, two for $4.99".
(Red Bull, btw, seems to be that price in just about every convenience store in the state.)
Quote from: leroys73 on February 21, 2013, 09:46:12 AM
Also the pump will shut off at about half full on my MC.
Right there's your
real headache.
Quote from: empirestate on February 16, 2013, 10:44:01 AM
So, if you work as a fuel attendant in NJ, are you allowed to fill up your own car? If so, do you have to be actually on duty and at your actual workplace to do so? What credentials are required?
That almost sounds like a favorite rhetorical question of mine: "If a fire station catches fire, who do they call?"
Quote from: hm insulators on February 26, 2013, 03:10:09 PM
That almost sounds like a favorite rhetorical question of mine: "If a fire station catches fire, who do they call?"
Mine actually had a small fire in the kitchen once while we were away from the station. Hearing your own firehouse's address being dispatched over the radio sure is interesting.