It looks like half of it is missing. The old bridge was much, much cooler. Besides, they're using Chinese materials to build the bridge, and I GUARANTEE it will collapse in a bad earthquake.
Quote from: Stalin on February 26, 2013, 06:00:12 PM
It looks like half of it is missing. The old bridge was much, much cooler. Besides, they're using Chinese materials to build the bridge, and I GUARANTEE it will collapse in a bad earthquake.
Well, you'd have to define bad. I suppose you could define no earthquake as bad unless it knocked down the new Bay Bridge span. No agency anywhere is more concerned with bridges that won't fall down in earthquakes than Caltrans.
The USA has no monopoly on good building materials. China will make products as good (or as bad) as the buyer wants to pay for.
Quote from: Stalin on February 26, 2013, 06:00:12 PM
It looks like half of it is missing. The old bridge was much, much cooler. Besides, they're using Chinese materials to build the bridge, and I GUARANTEE it will collapse in a bad earthquake.
The new span of the Bay Bridge is a Self-Anchored Suspension (SAS) bridge and while I agree the old cantilever bridge looks cooler, that type of bridge is too rigid for an area known for having big earthquakes. That is why a section of that bridge collapsed in 1989 in a magnitude 6.9 quake. If we were to get a magnitude 8 quake, I would GUARANTEE the old bridge would completely collapse... the new bridge, probably not. :D
I suppose they could have built a traditional suspension bridge but then it would have looked a lot like the western span. I like the SAS design. It's different and it is a hell of a lot better than a plain old causeway which was the original design.
How's construction coming along with the new East Bay span? What is the anticipated completion date?
Quote from: brownpelican on March 09, 2013, 12:36:54 AM
How's construction coming along with the new East Bay span? What is the anticipated completion date?
The new eastern span of the Bay Bridge is supposed to open on Labor Day which is September 2nd, 2013. The entire bridge will close on August 28th so construction crews can make the final connection between the new bridge and the eastern approaches. There are plans to hold a celebration including fireworks and a bridge walk on Sunday, September 1st.
Problems with the new bridge span?
KPIX Channel 5: Bay Bridge May Have Many More Bad Bolts, Flawed Tower Welds (http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/05/01/bay-bridge-may-have-many-more-bad-bolts-flawed-tower-welds/)
QuoteTransportation officials are concerned about the possibility that the new eastern span of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge may have many more bad bolts than originally thought, KPIX 5 has learned.
Sacramento Bee: Bay Bridge tower welds flawed, need repairs (http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/01/5387460/bay-bridge-tower-welds-flawed.html)
QuoteWelds on the iconic tower of the new San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge are flawed and must be repaired, compounding other problems that have beset the project and could delay its planned September opening.
QuoteSources confirmed that the California Department of Transportation is working with contractors to fix defects on portions of 20 welds, each nearly 33 feet long and up to 4 inches thick — a protracted process that has been under way for months. The welds are necessary for the tower to withstand a major earthquake.
TOLLROADSnews: SASsy story in San Fran - Caltrans and BATA have problems on iconic new East Span (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6536)
Now why does that not surprise me??
A bit more came out yesterday in the Sacramento Bee, which has noted flaws in the new bridge. These flaws may delay the planned Labor Day 2013 opening:
http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/18/5431401/corrosion-plagues-new-bay-bridge.html
Corrosion plagues new Bay Bridge span
QuoteDoug Coe, a normally confident engineering manager for the new east span of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge, walked into the nearby Oakland project office looking as if he were fighting back tears. Joel Sayre, then a bridge spokesman who worked there, remembers tensing in alarm.
Engineers had discovered an alarming corrosion problem with the "post-tension" tendons, and were pumping gallons of rusty water from the ducts that held them, Sayre said Coe told him. "Oh my god," he recalled Coe saying that afternoon in late spring of 2006. "What are we going to do?"
Coe, whom the California Department of Transportation would not permit to answer questions, was talking about thousands of steel tendons in the skyway section of the new span — the elevated roadway that runs from the Oakland footing to the suspension bridge near Yerba Buena Island. Ducts containing the tendons, crucial to structural integrity, had been left unsealed. Rainfall and water used to cure concrete, tainted by construction debris exposed to salty bay mist, had entered many of them.
QuoteAmong The Bee's findings:
- Beginning more than two years before Coe's discovery, inspectors frequently warned about water leaks and corrosion. Bridge spokesman Andrew Gordon could not say why officials failed to address the problems without significant research.
- Experts blamed water problems on design or construction errors. Leaks of grout — a cement-based filler that normally prevents or halts corrosion — between hundreds of ducts forced long construction delays that left tendons exposed. They said the errors made further, unseen corrosion of tendons likely.
- Caltrans used the wrong tests for corrosion, resulting in "essentially useless" findings, said UC Berkeley engineering professor Thomas Devine, an internationally known authority on corrosion-caused cracking in metals. He called the agency's research "woefully inadequate" and "meaningless" for detecting "environmentally assisted cracking," which can worsen as tendons fatigue under stress, and can ultimately cause breaks.
- University of South Florida professor Alberto A. Sagüés, sole independent evaluator of the Caltrans study, gave it a vote of confidence based on faulty assumptions provided by Caltrans. Sagüés declined to comment.
QuoteWhat's next?
Experts agreed that strong skyway foundations and piers, plus the factor of safety — "10 percent extra tendons," according to Caltrans — make a disastrous collapse of the bridge improbable, even in a devastating quake.
But if tendons are more corroded than Caltrans' study indicates, said Hawkins of the University of Illinois, a massive temblor might render one or more sections of the skyway unusable.
Another looming question, experts said, is whether taxpayers have purchased the $6.4 billion bridge they were promised, or a structure that will require costly repairs relatively soon.
"It's reasonable to suggest, strongly suggest, that a number of experts who are completely independent, knowledgeable in these areas, sit down and review what has been done," said Weyers, of Virginia Tech, "... and give suggestions about what would need to be done."
Regards,
Andy
I recommend "The Handyman's Secret Weapon: Duct Tape!"
I'm not going to test drive the new bridge due to these issues....but I do want to drive across the old one before it's torn down.
Crazy Glue
I actually like the new eastern approach span for the San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge (Bay Bridge for locals). It's a hell of a lot better than the original span. The old one made me feel sick. X-( But, the new span makes me go. :spin: :clap: I can't wait to visit San Francisco in 2016, and cross the bridge.
Just one thing.... compare how long it took to complete the original bridge with how long it took to construct this replacement.
But there wasn't an old bridge in the way when they built the original span.
N.Y. Times: In California, Bolts May Hold Up a Bridge in More Ways Than One (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/us/in-california-bolts-may-hold-up-a-bridge-in-more-ways-than-one.html)
QuoteThe plan was to finish construction on the new eastern stretch of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge and open it on Labor Day. Then the existing bridge, which partly collapsed in 1989 during the last major earthquake here, would be demolished.
QuoteBut problems surrounding seismic bolts in the new stretch and lingering questions about others have now presented California with two unattractive options for the most expensive infrastructure project in the state's history. Under the assumption that the next major jolt could occur at any time, should the state delay the opening of the new bridge, which despite its imperfections is said to be more seismically resistant than its 77-year-old predecessor? Or should the opening go as planned, leaving some issues to be resolved later?
QuoteState transportation officials must decide by July 10.
Quote"We are pushing for time against when the next earthquake will occur, and that's why there's this urgency about this," said Amy Rein Worth, the chairwoman of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission, one of the organizations involved in the construction, and the mayor of Orinda, a city in the East Bay. "At the same time, there's a strong feeling from all of us involved that we want to get it right."
What's the latest on when it will open. I was hoping on being able to drive it on Sept 9 but it's starting to look like it might not be open yet?
Quote from: Mdcastle on August 04, 2013, 07:31:21 PM
What's the latest on when it will open. I was hoping on being able to drive it on Sept 9 but it's starting to look like it might not be open yet?
Last I read, almost definitely not Labor Day as previously announced - probably December or later. More info at http://baybridgeinfo.org/.
Quote from: citrus on August 06, 2013, 10:17:11 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on August 04, 2013, 07:31:21 PM
What's the latest on when it will open. I was hoping on being able to drive it on Sept 9 but it's starting to look like it might not be open yet?
Last I read, almost definitely not Labor Day as previously announced - probably December or later. More info at http://baybridgeinfo.org/.
And now, officials are saying it might be open on time after all: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Bridge-could-open-on-Labor-Day-4728573.php
hmm - a weekend drive to SF might be possible after all then...
It's official. The new eastern span of the Bay Bridge will be opening on September 3rd.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/New-east-span-of-Bay-Bridge-to-open-Sept-3-4735622.php
The entire bridge is being closed at 8 PM on Wednesday, August 28th and will reopen on September 3rd at 5 AM, in time for the Tuesday morning commute. The closure allows construction crews to put the finishing touches on the approaches to the new bridge as well as do last minute striping.
Speaking of the new bridge, check out the sign pic:
http://baybridgeinfo.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/potd_image/images/x13_10928d0020.JPG.pagespeed.ic.wOpwc4SOJ-.jpg
Quote from: brad2971 on August 15, 2013, 09:59:17 PM
Speaking of the new bridge, check out the sign pic:
http://baybridgeinfo.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/potd_image/images/x13_10928d0020.JPG.pagespeed.ic.wOpwc4SOJ-.jpg
Nice find!
This is how I expected Caltrans to sign left exits to comply with the new MUTCD. To be honest, I kind of like that layout versus the stacked method mandated by the 2009 MUTCD.
Edit: I did a quick mockup of the sign in brad2971's post...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2F80w_Exit4_NBB.png&hash=2b1c8030f36578506a70a19d9e8adce90904924c)
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 15, 2013, 10:04:41 PM
Edit: I did a quick mockup of the sign in brad2971's post...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2F80w_Exit4_NBB.png&hash=2b1c8030f36578506a70a19d9e8adce90904924c)
FYI: Image isn't showing for me...
Interesting sign gantry for California.
If you want to see another view of that sign, check out this video that was recently posted about testing the LED lighting fixtures that the new bridge is being fitted with:
Personally, I am hoping for the chance to drive across the old eastern span one last time prior to next week's closure, but my window of opportunity is quickly closing.
The new bridge is awesome! The left exitBGS isn't too bad either. I prefer the stripped design as the Caltrans exit tabs go.
The Orlando Sentinel here in Florida has an article in yesterday's paper about it being finally opened! I see no one clinched it yet, or else it would have been said here, but if someone is from the area please let us know your experience.
To see a video of the new bridge (both directions) posted by FreewayBrent, see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_kZ2oCKNoQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UU1h3GvHmdNJyKW-IA3CAS_g
Regards,
Andy
So did pctech clinch it or am I the first? It was pretty cool at night with a light fog.
I've only seen LED street lamps on the supports of some traffic signals erected in the last couple of years here.New traffic signals and railroad crossing signals have had them for several years now. The only bridge that is cool enough to compete with the new SF bay bridge here is the James Audubon one north of Baton Rouge.
Quote from: pctech on September 10, 2013, 10:42:32 AM
I've only seen LED street lamps on the supports of some traffic signals erected in the last couple of years here.New traffic signals and railroad crossing signals have had them for several years now. The only bridge that is cool enough to compete with the new SF bay bridge here is the James Audubon one north of Baton Rouge.
Many California freeways now have LED lights. A lot of California cities are switching to LED lights on their surface streets. Granted, LED lights on conventional streetlights are much different from the pole.
Railroad crossing/traffic lights have had red LEDs for 20 years now. :P
The freeway illumination lamps at Exit 65 of I-8 here in Boulevard have been changed to LED's
Wow the New Bay Bridge looks great. But lets hope the bolts are repaired soon.
I clinched it a week after opening on September 9. Looks pretty nice but I wonder why the speed limit is still 50 on the new span with full shoulders on both sides? I had to set the cruse control on my cousin's Lexus RX450H to 54 to avoid accidentally going over the speed limit.
Quote from: apjung on November 01, 2013, 06:59:16 AM
I clinched it a week after opening on September 9. Looks pretty nice but I wonder why the speed limit is still 50 on the new span with full shoulders on both sides? I had to set the cruse control on my cousin's Lexus RX450H to 54 to avoid accidentally going over the speed limit.
If you think that is bad, you should see the 35 speed limit on the Margaret Hunt Hill bridge here in Dallas.
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Speed-Across-Hunt-Hill-Bridge-to-be-35-MPH-143326336.html
Quote from: apjung on November 01, 2013, 06:59:16 AM
I clinched it a week after opening on September 9. Looks pretty nice but I wonder why the speed limit is still 50 on the new span with full shoulders on both sides?
I suspect they want the speed limit to be constant across the whole bridge, as the older half west of Treasure Island still has a 50 limit.
In fact, all of 80 from the terminus at the Central Freeway in SF to the MacArthur Maze is signed for that speed. Once the route transitions to the Eastshore Freeway, I think that's where it opens up to 65.
I think San Francisco has a maximum speed limit of 50. Even in the rare places where geometric design would allow higher speeds, higher speeds invite panic stops at congested areas.
Quote from: kkt on November 01, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
I think San Francisco has a maximum speed limit of 50. Even in the rare places where geometric design would allow higher speeds, higher speeds invite panic stops at congested areas.
280 has a 65 limit, presumably as it is the widest of the freeways in San Francisco (especially the 1960s-1970s extension section to the ballpark).
Quote from: apjung on November 01, 2013, 06:59:16 AM
I clinched it a week after opening on September 9. Looks pretty nice but I wonder why the speed limit is still 50 on the new span with full shoulders on both sides? I had to set the cruse control on my cousin's Lexus RX450H to 54 to avoid accidentally going over the speed limit.
Huh? You set the cruise control to 54 to avoid going over 50?
Quote from: NE2 on November 02, 2013, 02:46:01 PM
Quote from: apjung link=topic=8865.msg25cruise control set at 8#msg256988 date=1383303556
I clinched it a week after opening on September 9. Looks pretty nice but I wonder why the speed limit is still 50 on the new span with full shoulders on both sides? I had to set the cruse control on my cousin's Lexus RX450H to 54 to avoid accidentally going over the speed limit.
Huh? You set the cruise control to 54 to avoid going over 50?
C'mon, if I set it at 50, just about everybody would be passing me up. People are already passing me up with the cruise control set at 54. I have yet to be pulled over going 4-6 miles over the speed limit.
Quote from: TheStranger on November 01, 2013, 01:08:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on November 01, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
I think San Francisco has a maximum speed limit of 50. Even in the rare places where geometric design would allow higher speeds, higher speeds invite panic stops at congested areas.
280 has a 65 limit, presumably as it is the widest of the freeways in San Francisco (especially the 1960s-1970s extension section to the ballpark).
Really? I thought it dropped at the city limits northbound, about where 19th Ave. splits off. I guess I could be wrong or outdated, though, I haven't been on it in a few years.
Quote from: kkt on November 04, 2013, 02:12:12 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on November 01, 2013, 01:08:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on November 01, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
I think San Francisco has a maximum speed limit of 50. Even in the rare places where geometric design would allow higher speeds, higher speeds invite panic stops at congested areas.
280 has a 65 limit, presumably as it is the widest of the freeways in San Francisco (especially the 1960s-1970s extension section to the ballpark).
Really? I thought it dropped at the city limits northbound, about where 19th Ave. splits off. I guess I could be wrong or outdated, though, I haven't been on it in a few years.
I-280 is 65 MPH south of US 101...
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=37.734287,-122.410745&spn=0.000841,0.000862&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=37.734236,-122.410845&panoid=_EFK4oK5d81tiM-UfNWd3A&cbp=12,243.98,,1,0.21
Actually, it looks like I-280 is 65 MPH all of the way to King Street where the freeway ends...
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=37.759468,-122.39248&spn=0.004792,0.006899&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.759382,-122.392473&panoid=2FqPbpOJpPO1gz6UOhbHrw&cbp=12,195.43,,1,0.03
Quote from: myosh_tino on November 04, 2013, 02:29:40 PM
Quote from: kkt on November 04, 2013, 02:12:12 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on November 01, 2013, 01:08:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on November 01, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
I think San Francisco has a maximum speed limit of 50. Even in the rare places where geometric design would allow higher speeds, higher speeds invite panic stops at congested areas.
280 has a 65 limit, presumably as it is the widest of the freeways in San Francisco (especially the 1960s-1970s extension section to the ballpark).
Really? I thought it dropped at the city limits northbound, about where 19th Ave. splits off. I guess I could be wrong or outdated, though, I haven't been on it in a few years.
I-280 is 65 MPH south of US 101...
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=37.734287,-122.410745&spn=0.000841,0.000862&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=37.734236,-122.410845&panoid=_EFK4oK5d81tiM-UfNWd3A&cbp=12,243.98,,1,0.21
Actually, it looks like I-280 is 65 MPH all of the way to King Street where the freeway ends...
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=37.759468,-122.39248&spn=0.004792,0.006899&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.759382,-122.392473&panoid=2FqPbpOJpPO1gz6UOhbHrw&cbp=12,195.43,,1,0.03
Okay, thanks for the links.
From SF Gate:
Demolition crews start chipping away at old Bay BridgeQuoteThe beginning of the end arrived Tuesday for the recently retired east span of the Bay Bridge, which will slowly disappear from its place of prominence over the next three years.
Demolition crews, who had been preparing the 77-year-old bridge for its departure since its shiny new replacement arrived in September, began ripping out the upper road deck of the cantilever section as light rain yielded to sunshine Tuesday morning. The day, incidentally, was the anniversary of the bridge's opening.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/d1)
Is it because I am getting old (pushing 60) that I am not enamored of the looks of the new span ?
To me, there is something of a, for lack of a better word, kludge factor in the lack of proportion, or grace, or something in how it looks.
Even I find this odd, I was a big fan of Ruck-a-Chucky, and was disappointed it was never built. I don't it is that it is cable stayed, Tampa, and that one in France are stunning to look at.
I just find myself grimacing and wincing when I look at it.
And this is something I need to keep secret, I am related to some management types at Peter Kiewit, and I know they are proud of their involvement in the project.
:hmmm:
From SF Gate:
Bay Bridge's new problem: leaksQuoteThe just-opened eastern span of the Bay Bridge, already beset by questions about flawed welds and cracked steel rods, has a new problem: It leaks.
Rainwater is dripping into the steel structure beneath the road deck on the suspension stretch of the span, which is supposed to be watertight, Caltrans said. Outside experts say that could pose a risk of corrosion on a bridge that cost $6.4 billion and is supposed to last well into the 22nd century.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/m2)
Designed to last until the 22nd century....I would count on it.
Quote from: Jardine on November 16, 2013, 01:07:21 PM
Is it because I am getting old (pushing 60) that I am not enamored of the looks of the new span ?
To me, there is something of a, for lack of a better word, kludge factor in the lack of proportion, or grace, or something in how it looks.
Even I find this odd, I was a big fan of Ruck-a-Chucky, and was disappointed it was never built. I don't it is that it is cable stayed, Tampa, and that one in France are stunning to look at.
I just find myself grimacing and wincing when I look at it.
And this is something I need to keep secret, I am related to some management types at Peter Kiewit, and I know they are proud of their involvement in the project.
:hmmm:
But it's not a cable stay bridge... at all.
Quote from: pctech on February 10, 2014, 09:20:16 AM
Designed to last until the 22nd century....I would count on it.
22nd century? What evidence is it based on? Geez we need to wait for the next quake to find out now that leaks are mentioned.
Quote from: bing101 on February 11, 2014, 11:15:58 AM
Quote from: pctech on February 10, 2014, 09:20:16 AM
Designed to last until the 22nd century....I would count on it.
22nd century? What evidence is it based on? Geez we need to wait for the next quake to find out now that leaks are mentioned.
This reminds me of the Lazlo Toth objection to the Department of Energy paying Bechtel in full for nuclear waste storage facilities designed to last 10,000 years. Pay half up front, Toth argued, and half after 10,000 years if the results are satisfactory.
Perhaps the final payment on the bridge should remain in escrow for 86 years.
Maybe that would be a good payment arrangement for major engineering works in general. If the firm is at the edge of solvency, they can merge with some other firm who takes over the future payment but also the obligation to fix it in the meantime if necessary.
Oops, just caught my typo. I meant don't count on it lasting until the 22nd century..... :poke:
Quote from: pctech on February 12, 2014, 09:43:25 AM
Oops, just caught my typo. I meant don't count on it lasting until the 22nd century..... :poke:
Why not? That's only 87 years away. Should be nothing for a well-engineered bridge.
Given these cracks, this bridge might not be so well-engineered.
And the hits keep on coming...
From SF Gate:
Caltrans kept Bay Bridge leaks from local officialsQuoteLocal transportation officials are demanding that Caltrans reveal any problems with the new Bay Bridge eastern span after the state agency failed to tell them for nearly two months that potentially corrosive rainwater was leaking into the steel superstructure.
"An oversight committee can't oversee if it is not provided with information from the project staff," said Steve Heminger, executive director of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission. "I have made that clear in no uncertain terms."
In his update on the bridge project last week, which was not publicized, Heminger revealed that Caltrans didn't tell commission staffers of the leak problem - which carries the risk of corrosion over the long term - until late January, though the state knew about it in early December.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/n6)
Quote from: kkt on February 12, 2014, 12:41:28 PM
Quote from: pctech on February 12, 2014, 09:43:25 AM
Oops, just caught my typo. I meant don't count on it lasting until the 22nd century..... :poke:
Why not? That's only 87 years away. Should be nothing for a well-engineered bridge.
I happened to read today that old London Bridge lasted over 600 years. There are probably older examples, but it had heavy use its whole life.
Quote from: kkt on February 18, 2014, 11:15:47 PMI happened to read today that old London Bridge lasted over 600 years. There are probably older examples, but it had heavy use its whole life.
The 7th bridge lasted from 1209 to 1831. And it was the Georgian demolition of the houses and widening of the bridge that caused the structural reasons for the bridge, now in Arizona, being built.
Of course, the 12ft roadway stopped heavy vehicles, such as we see now, from using it. 7-storey buildings, however, do add a lot of load onto the structure. Add in that London is sinking into the soft clay, and it is especially a bridge problem (the 1831 bridge was sinking about an inch every 8 years) and for a bridge to last that long is epic.
Plus, it was the only bridge downstream of Kingston until Waterloo Bridge was opened, prompting the 1760s widening. And the nursery rhyme tells of its falling down. Both point to the engineering difficulty in bridging the river (OK there's political reasons why no other bridges, as well as South London not developing until the industrial revolution). 1209 had some chuffing good engineers!
Quote from: english si on February 19, 2014, 09:50:23 AM
Of course, the 12ft roadway stopped heavy vehicles, such as we see now, from using it. 7-storey buildings, however, do add a lot of load onto the structure.
Pedestrians packed shoulder-to-shoulder across a bridge can put more weight on the span that a typical load of cars and trucks. The Golden Gate Bridge is slightly arched in the middle. When the bridge was closed to car traffic and jammed wall-to-wall with pedestrians for the 50th anniversary celebration, the weight was so much the center arch flattened out. That never happened when it was open to vehicle traffic, even bumper to bumper commute traffic.
Yep, those 13th century stonemasons knew what they were doing.
Quote from: kkt on February 18, 2014, 11:15:47 PM
I happened to read today that old London Bridge lasted over 600 years. There are probably older examples, but it had heavy use its whole life.
plenty of bridges in Europe that are about that old, if not older.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_bridge
I'll bet we can find a Roman bridge that is open to vehicular traffic today.
IIRC, the Alcantara bridge pictured on that ref'd Wiki page is open to vehicular traffic.
From SF Gate:
Caltrans was warned Bay Bridge welds could crackQuoteThe firm that designed the new Bay Bridge eastern span warned Caltrans as the bridge neared completion that some of its welds could crack prematurely under the constant pounding of cars and trucks, The Chronicle has learned.
The potential for cracking was created after the span was designed, said engineers with the firm T.Y. Lin International. It happened when Caltrans suspended its rules and allowed the bridge builder to weld together Chinese-manufactured sections of steel road deck that didn't fit together correctly.
Any cracks in the welded connections would be minor, the engineers concluded, and would not pose the threat of a catastrophic failure. However, such cracking could shorten the time before toll-payer dollars would be needed to make repairs to the $6.4 billion bridge.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/s3)
From Sacramento Bee:
New Bay Bridge shows signs of rust in critical areasQuoteThe bridge suspension span and iconic tower rely on an unusual design: A single cable, comprising 137 steel strands, loops over the tower and under the bridge to hold it up. That cable is secured on the eastern edge of the span, inside chambers designed to keep out water and marine air to prevent corrosion.
But a Sacramento Bee investigation found that inside one of the chambers, where the suspension cable is attached, the cable strands and rods show rust. Lab tests confirm the rust, alarming independent engineering experts who warn of severe long-term implications. They urge the California Department of Transportation to move quickly to fix the problem.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/s7)
How not to build a bridge.
From SF Gate:
Caltrans' simple, cut-rate fix for Bay Bridge problemQuoteEven as Caltrans spends $10 million to study whether more than 2,000 rods and bolts on the new eastern span of the Bay Bridge are vulnerable to cracking, the agency has quietly installed a relatively cheap and simple fix for dozens of the galvanized-steel parts, The Chronicle has learned.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/tb)
From SF Gate:
Optimistic report on new Bay Bridge's maintenanceQuoteNone of the issues that have arisen in the past year-plus on the new Bay Bridge eastern span should result in extra maintenance costs over the expected 150-year life of the bridge, the project manager for the new span said Tuesday.
A Bay Area transportation official ordered up a list of potential maintenance headaches after The Chronicle reported in February that the huge, hollow steel structures that support the road decks on the tower portion of the bridge leak when it rains, raising the threat of rust and a shortened life for the span.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/tx)
When will the fun ever stop?
From SF Gate:
New Bay Bridge defect could be trouble in earthquakeQuoteSteel rods that anchor the Bay Bridge eastern span's massive main cable have shifted since they were installed and are now perilously close to sharp-edged plates inside the belly of the new span, a problem Caltrans acknowledges could take months and millions of dollars to fix, The Chronicle has learned.
Caltrans engineers say more than 200 high-strength rods could be jerked in a major earthquake into those sharp edges, risking damage to the main cable and possibly threatening the bridge's stability.
Caltrans has known about the problem for several months, but Bay Area transportation officials who will soon be responsible for maintaining the bridge say they learned of it only recently. They want it dealt with before the state officially turns over the bridge to local authorities, which is supposed to happen in August.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/ui)
Quote from: ZLoth on May 15, 2014, 09:29:09 PM
When will the fun ever stop?
From SF Gate:
They want it dealt with before the state officially turns over the bridge to local authorities, which is supposed to happen in August.
I don't understand turning over the bridge to local authorities. Caltrans isn't going to be maintaining the bridge throughout its life? Who is?
If the bridge is getting turned over to local authorities, does that mean that I-80's getting truncated back to the MacArthur Maze?
Quote from: Bickendan on May 16, 2014, 07:55:41 PM
If the bridge is getting turned over to local authorities, does that mean that I-80's getting truncated back to the MacArthur Maze?
My quick review of cahighways.org, and the state highway code, suggests there are no plans to "relinquish" (remove from the state highway system) the Bay Bridge part of route 80. That's unlike what's happened to several other routes, like CA 1, that have been sliced and diced through relinquishments to county or municipal governments.
As discussed over in another recent thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12381.msg299840#msg299442), at least part of I-215 in Nevada is county-maintained, so the lack of state maintenance seems not inconsistent with Interstate status.
Quote from: kkt on May 16, 2014, 12:00:10 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on May 15, 2014, 09:29:09 PM
When will the fun ever stop?
From SF Gate:
They want it dealt with before the state officially turns over the bridge to local authorities, which is supposed to happen in August.
I don't understand turning over the bridge to local authorities. Caltrans isn't going to be maintaining the bridge throughout its life? Who is?
What I thought Caltrans is the owner of the Bridge? that makes no sense why would caltrans throw away money that they get from the Fastrak tolls?
But it could be like the Golden Gate Bridge, where it's not a part of either US 101 or SR 1, right?
Quote from: bing101 on May 16, 2014, 09:35:03 PM
What I thought Caltrans is the owner of the Bridge? that makes no sense why would caltrans throw away money that they get from the Fastrak tolls?
Except Caltrans doesn't see any of the toll revenue per se.
The Bay Area Toll Authority (BATA), created by the state legislature in the late 90's, handles ALL toll revenue from the 7 state-owned bridges (San Mateo, Dumbarton, San Rafael, Benicia, Carquinez, Antioch and the Bay Bridge) and uses those funds for day-to-day operations and maintenance of these bridges along with funding certain capital improvement projects.
Quote from: JustDrive on May 16, 2014, 10:03:17 PM
But it could be like the Golden Gate Bridge, where it's not a part of either US 101 or SR 1, right?
The Golden Gate Bridge is not part of the BATA that myosh_tino mentioned; instead, it is part of the Golden Gate Bridge, Highway and Transportation District (see http://www.goldengatebridge.org/). BATA (http://bata.mtc.ca.gov/about.htm) was created in 1997; the Golden Gate District was formed in 1928. Since BATA is a comparably recent state legislative creation, my suspicion is that BATA-controlled bridges are considered part of the state highway system. I think that since the GGBHTD is a special purpose district and is much older with a different background, the Golden Gate Bridge is not a part of the state highway system.
For purposes of route continuity, US 101 and SR 1 are both signed on the approaches to the bridge; however, California's Streets and Highways Code (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=shc&group=00001-01000&file=300-635) notes route disruptions for both routes at the bridge approaches. Having said that, in the case of US 101, there is no route continuity issue from AASHTO's perspective. In the latest US highways log (http://route.transportation.org/Pages/U.S.RouteNumberDatabase(Dec2009).aspx), there is no disruption listed; therefore, AASHTO considers US 101 to be part of the Golden Gate Bridge.
Similar instances where FHWA and/or AASHTO and California's Streets and Highways Code vary include Interstate 210 along the north-south SR 57/Orange Freeway segment (FHWA still considers this short segment between SR 210 and I-10 to be I-210; California's code considers it to be SR 57). Interstate 305 (listed in the FHWA Route Log and Finder List but not in the California Streets and Highways Code). It is debatable whether I-80 west of the Bay Bridge has a similar discrepancy, as some sources question whether I-80 west of the Bay Bridge was ever officially added into the Interstate Highway System.
Is this like Port Authority in New Jersey and New York State where they manage the bridges such as the I-95 George Washington Bridge but the state of New York and New Jersey DOt's manage other freeways in the state that does not land on state borders.
But the strange thing is that I see CalTrans have offices and trucks on the Carquinez Toll Plaza and Bay Bridge Toll plaza I never knew it was really managed by BATA.
Quote from: bing101 on May 18, 2014, 08:43:08 AM
But the strange thing is that I see CalTrans have offices and trucks on the Carquinez Toll Plaza and Bay Bridge Toll plaza I never knew it was really managed by BATA.
Just to clarify, the BATA uses the toll revenue from the 7 bridges to fund operations and maintenance which is performed by Caltrans.
From wikipedia...
"In August 2005, the California Legislature expanded BATA's responsibilities to include administration of all toll revenue and
joint oversight of the toll bridge construction program with Caltrans and the California Transportation Commission."
"As part of these activities, BATA
funds the day-to-day operations, facilities maintenance, and administration of the bridges."
From Sacramento Bee:
Bay Bridge's troubled China connection
How Caltrans' choice of an inexperienced company left structural doubts and cost taxpayersQuoteThe Chinese company hired to build key parts of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge had never built a bridge.
Shanghai Zhenhua Port Machinery Co. Ltd., after all, was a manufacturer of giant cranes for container ports.
The California Department of Transportation agreed to contract the company known as ZPMC in 2006 because it had established a reputation as fast and cost-effective, offering savings of about $250 million compared to the competing bidder.
Bridge officials were racing to finish the span, pushed years behind schedule and billions of dollars over budget by political squabbles and construction delays. Fearful that the old bridge might not survive a major quake, they wanted speed and savings.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/vx)
Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive. Looks like this will a very big headache for Caltrans and ultimately the taxpayers of CA.
Quote from: pctech on June 08, 2014, 03:17:31 PM
Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive. Looks like this will a very big headache for Caltrans and ultimately the taxpayers of CA.
Lesson learned?
Here's one -
do not hire any firm to fabricate large structures like this unless everyone on the job is fluent in the English language.
Especially make sure that they understand that "requirement" is not the same as "suggestion".
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 08, 2014, 11:26:12 PM
Quote from: pctech on June 08, 2014, 03:17:31 PM
Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive. Looks like this will a very big headache for Caltrans and ultimately the taxpayers of CA.
Lesson learned?
Here's one - do not hire any firm to fabricate large structures like this unless everyone on the job is fluent in the English language.
Low Bid Ain't Everything
From SF Gate:
Bay Bridge flaws: bad welds, delays cost many millions extraQuoteCaltrans paid hundreds of millions of dollars over the original bid price for work on the Bay Bridge eastern span that was plagued by shoddy welding and completed more than a year late, state documents reviewed by The Chronicle show.
In agreeing to pay the extra money, Caltrans accepted responsibility for much of the delay, the documents show - even though bridge officials have publicly blamed bad welding done at the Shanghai factory of China's largest maker of heavy machinery.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/vy)
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
After having Leyland Yee, a SF state assemblyman/senator busted for smuggling in/out weapons to Al Quida for the Chinese mob. I would wonder if he had his hand in any "lay off China" pressure. He was effectively the #3 Democrat in the state. Even with the weapons trafficking indictment, he got 400K voted for State SoS in last weeks primary.
Its Crazy now we have two bridges Carquinez and Bay Bridge exposed for the same steel issues. under the deck.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 08, 2014, 11:26:12 PM
Lesson learned?
Here's one - do not hire any firm to fabricate large structures like this unless everyone on the job is fluent in the English language.
Wait. How is language involved here?
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 08, 2014, 11:26:12 PM
Lesson learned?
Here's one - do not hire any firm to fabricate large structures like this unless everyone on the job is fluent in the English language.
From my read of the article, I wouldn't say that fluency of English wasn't the major factor. More so, if you're going to hire a contractor to do a major and unusual fabrication job, you have to make sure that they are familiar with and embrace the fabrication and quality control procedures.
Quote from: ZLoth on June 08, 2014, 05:32:19 AM
From Sacramento Bee:
Bay Bridge's troubled China connection
How Caltrans' choice of an inexperienced company left structural doubts and cost taxpayersQuoteThe Chinese company hired to build key parts of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge had never built a bridge.
Bridge officials were racing to finish the span, pushed years behind schedule and billions of dollars over budget by political squabbles and construction delays. Fearful that the old bridge might not survive a major quake, they wanted speed and savings.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/vx)
So instead of the old bridge that might not survive a major earthquake, we have a new bridge that might not survive a major quake?
Uh, can somebody tell me what's wrong with this picture? :hmmm:
Or maybe the better emoticon is :pan:.
From Sacramento Bee:
Do hidden cracks imperil Bay Bridge?QuoteThe welding code and construction contract for the suspension-span roadway of the new San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge each contain a universal rule: "No cracks."
That rule applies to any new steel bridge and is particularly important for a "fracture-critical" bridge such as the new span, which opened last fall. Fracture-critical bridges can break, because some of their parts lack redundancy or backup. If a weld crack grows larger, causing such a part to fail, all or part of the roadway could collapse.
In 2008, the no-cracks rule put the California Department of Transportation in a worrisome bind. The Chinese firm hired to build the roadway routinely produced cracked welds that proved difficult to fix. Facing rising costs and increasing delays on a $6.5 billion bridge that was already years behind schedule and billions over budget, Caltrans sought advice about its options from a highly regarded expert in how metal fractures. He said some cracks can remain without compromising safety.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/wq)
Criminal Investigation of Caltrans construction of Bay Bridge.
http://abc7news.com/traffic/sen-calls-for-criminal-investigation-into-bay-bridge/223903/
From SF Gate:
Caltrans muzzled Bay Bridge critics, report saysQuoteCaltrans sought to silence engineers who voiced concerns about cost overruns or construction defects on the new Bay Bridge eastern span, forcing several of them from the project, according to an investigative report prepared for a state Senate committee.
Eight engineers who either worked for Caltrans or had contracts with the state agency had to leave their posts, as did a ninth who worked for the bridge's builder, according to the report released Thursday by the Senate Transportation and Housing Committee.
Several engineers criticized the quality of welding work on giant deck sections and tower components that began in 2007 at a factory in Shanghai, while others balked at costly change orders that they saw as benefiting the bridge's lead contractor.
Caltrans has said cracks were found in numerous welds in deck sections made by Zhenhua Heavy Industries Co. Ltd., known as ZPMC. But it says they were not a safety concern and that the welds have been repaired.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/z9)
There is talk that Caltrans was ordered by officials, including elected ones and maybe even Brown to sweep this under the table so that it would not engender more opposition to high speed rail and all the jobs that would result from that project.
http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/08/05/4054950/am-alert-criminal-charges-for.html?
More Details to this scandal at the Bay Bridge.
From SF Gate:
Latest defect: Bay Bridge tower rods sitting in waterQuoteNearly every one of the 423 steel rods that anchor the tower of the new Bay Bridge eastern span to its base has been sitting in potentially corrosive water, Caltrans officials said Tuesday – one of the most serious construction defects found yet on the $6.4 billion project.
Several of the high-strength, 25-foot-long rods inspected after the first signs of trouble appeared last month were found to be submerged in several feet of water, in part because not enough grout had been pumped into protective sleeves to keep them dry, officials told members of a bridge project oversight committee in Oakland.
"I am a problem solver," the bridge panel's chairman, Steve Heminger, said after the meeting. "This is another problem – I certainly wish we would stop finding problems to solve."
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/10u)
Damn its 1 month after the 6.0 American Canyon Quake and we have a new episode of the Bay Bridge Reality show. The argument prior to the 2014 Napa Quake was that both the East Bay Bridge and Carquinez/Al Zampa may not even withstand a 6.0 quake. now rust was at play here and the realization that there are other Norcal faults at play besides the Hayward Fault and San Andreas that could destroy this bridge.
Dang its been 25 years since Loma Prieta took out old East Bay Bridge.
Quote from: bing101 on October 01, 2014, 11:20:24 AM
Dang its been 25 years since Loma Prieta took out old East Bay Bridge.
"A quarter of a century. Makes a girl think." -- Marilyn Monroe,
Some Like It HotCalTrans should have left the old east span in place. It would be a handy bypass route for when the new span falls down or needs emergency closure.
Quote from: kkt on October 01, 2014, 12:39:37 PM
CalTrans should have left the old east span in place. It would be a handy bypass route for when the new span falls down or needs emergency closure.
Several problems with that idea:
- The new bridge is single-deck while the old east span was double-deck. While it's not impossible to have a ramp configuration to have both connect at Treasure Island, the net effect would be a new bottleneck there due to a capacity shift. (And leaving the old bridge closed except for detour purposes does not mitigate any needed maintenance to keep that span serviceable)
- The old span was specifically taken out of service because of the expense to bring it to modern seismic safety standards - why a new east span was even considered in the first place (though the cost to build that east span, as noted, ended up being way more).
Quote from: TheStranger on October 01, 2014, 12:45:24 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 01, 2014, 12:39:37 PM
CalTrans should have left the old east span in place. It would be a handy bypass route for when the new span falls down or needs emergency closure.
Several problems with that idea:
- The new bridge is single-deck while the old east span was double-deck. While it's not impossible to have a ramp configuration to have both connect at Treasure Island, the net effect would be a new bottleneck there due to a capacity shift. (And leaving the old bridge closed except for detour purposes does not mitigate any needed maintenance to keep that span serviceable)
- The old span was specifically taken out of service because of the expense to bring it to modern seismic safety standards - why a new east span was even considered in the first place (though the cost to build that east span, as noted, ended up being way more).
I was attempting to make a joke about how the new span is in more danger of collapse than the old one was.
Quote from: kkt on October 01, 2014, 01:58:58 PM
I was attempting to make a joke about how the new span is in more danger of collapse than the old one was.
LOL. Totally get where you're coming from!
I'd almost agree, but I still vividly remember what happened in 1989.
I remember it too. I was in Seattle by that time, but wondered if any of my family were on it (they weren't). But just because one section of the old one collapsed doesn't mean it's not safe with the strengthening that was done shortly after the quake. And it definitely doesn't prove that the new one is safe.
Continuing on...
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_26916804/offficials-scoff-at-price-tag-hiking-path-along
QuoteBay Bridge officials are looking for a cheaper way to build a 2-mile trail along the western span after a study estimated the project would cost a whopping $400 million to $500 million.
... Toward that goal, the toll authority's oversight committee on Wednesday will consider authorizing a $10 million engineering study to assess more affordable alternatives and options to pay for them. ... Interest in building a path some 2 miles across the western span -- between San Francisco and Yerba Buena Island -- has picked up since September 2013, when the $6.4 billion new eastern span opened with a popular hiking and biking trail. ... Trail advocates say it doesn't make sense to build a trail just half way across the bay. A path all the way between Oakland and San Francisco, they say, would prove popular with tourists, bike commuters and recreation enthusiasts.
A study by the toll authority and Caltrans came up with six design options for attaching to the bridge a new 12-foot-wide path. Each would cost between $400 million and $500 million, officials said. One alternative included adding 12-foot-lanes on both the north and south side of the bridge, one for trail users and the other one for Caltrans maintenance vehicles. The other five options call for a single 12-foot-wide path added to either the north or south side.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/11/11/san-francisco-oakland-yerba-buena-island-bay-bridge-bike-path-temporarily-closes-cyclists-happy-workers-extending-trail/
QuoteStarting this week, the new Bay Bridge bike path will be closing periodically as crews continue to tear down the old span, but cyclists are willing to put up with it since the work is extending the trail to Yerba Buena Island. ... "We understand they're going to have to do some temporary closures of the pathway related to the demolition of the old bridge and then eventually related to the construction of the touchdown portion of the bike trail," said Dave Campbell with Bike East Bay. He said eventually it will be worth it to be able to get all the way to the island. "It's beautiful. It's one of the nicest bike facilities our public servants have built. They definitely raised the bar. We're going to expect a lot more good things out of them in the future," he said. The path is expected to touch down on the island and be open permanently next summer.
From SF Gate:
Bay Bridge contractor facing possible fines for unfinished workQuoteWith work still to be completed on the new Bay Bridge eastern span, Caltrans is threatening to fine the main contractor up to $25,000 a day for as long as the $6.4 billion project remains unfinished.
Several problems that developed after the bridge opened in September 2013 have yet to be fixed. Rust spots remain in the span's gleaming white paint, and dozens of sleeves for steel anchor rods at the tower's foundation must be filled with grout or grease after botched construction resulted in the holes flooding with rainwater.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/13r)
From SF Gate:
Another problem for new Bay Bridge span: Elevator doesn't workQuoteA $4 million elevator intended to take maintenance workers and well-connected investor-tourists to the top of the signature tower on the new Bay Bridge eastern span failed after just a few uses, and Caltrans is trying to figure who will pay the bill, The Chronicle has learned.
The primary function of the glass cab elevator – billed as unique by its manufacturer – is to take workers from the base of the 525-foot tower to the top so they can make repairs and touch up paint. But bridge officials also hoped to use it to show off 360-degree views of the Bay Area to investors who purchased bonds that helped pay for the span, even ordering larger windows surrounding the elevator to get a more expansive view.
For the past month, however, no one has gone to the top of the tower on the elevator. Its door malfunctioned Dec. 7, two days after it was put into service. That problem was fixed Dec. 23, but on Jan. 8 its drive shaft failed and the cab became stuck halfway up the tower. It has not worked since.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/15l)
Quote from: ZLoth on February 08, 2015, 07:13:38 AM
From SF Gate:
Another problem for new Bay Bridge span: Elevator doesn't workQuoteA $4 million elevator intended to take maintenance workers and well-connected investor-tourists to the top of the signature tower on the new Bay Bridge eastern span failed after just a few uses, and Caltrans is trying to figure who will pay the bill, The Chronicle has learned.
The primary function of the glass cab elevator – billed as unique by its manufacturer – is to take workers from the base of the 525-foot tower to the top so they can make repairs and touch up paint. But bridge officials also hoped to use it to show off 360-degree views of the Bay Area to investors who purchased bonds that helped pay for the span, even ordering larger windows surrounding the elevator to get a more expansive view.
For the past month, however, no one has gone to the top of the tower on the elevator. Its door malfunctioned Dec. 7, two days after it was put into service. That problem was fixed Dec. 23, but on Jan. 8 its drive shaft failed and the cab became stuck halfway up the tower. It has not worked since.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/15l)
Man, what else is next?
At this point, it probably would have cost less to retrofit the old doubledecker span...
Can I buy some of that debt and get a ride up whenever? I have $50 that wants to know.
Quote from: Bickendan on February 11, 2015, 12:54:37 AM
At this point, it probably would have cost less to retrofit the old doubledecker span...
Oh, absolutely. We knew that going in. Relying on memory, back in the 90s, Caltrans said about 1.5B to renovate the doubledecker span or $2B to rebuild. Of course that was before the Signature Span with Signature Elevator for Political Contributors was added.
Honestly, I think the old cantilever span looked nicer...
From SF Gate:
Rust, cracks found on Bay Bridge tower rodQuoteTests on a steel anchor rod removed from the Bay Bridge eastern span's tower after being inadvertently submerged in water for years revealed rust and tiny cracks, bridge officials said Friday – a potentially worrisome sign for the long-term viability of the span.
The 25-foot-long rod is one of more than 400 galvanized-steel fasteners that became soaked in water because they sat in holes at the tower's foundation that were poorly grouted. They cannot be removed without being destroyed, and there is not enough room to maneuver replacement rods into position – so any evidence that the water has damaged the rods presents Caltrans with what could be an unsolvable dilemma.
"We did see some evidence of damage on the surface," Caltrans bridge engineer Brian Maroney said at a news conference in Oakland, where officials announced the results of preliminary tests on the removed rod.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/15t)
Oh, jeez.
By this point, I'm surpised the bridge hasn't been attacked by Godzilla.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 25, 2015, 03:07:42 PM
Oh, jeez.
By this point, I'm surpised the bridge hasn't been attacked by Godzilla.
There's an idea. Auction off the movie rights to the destruction of the New Bay Bridge. The money raised could partially offset the cost of rebuilding it.
Pacific Rim II: Bay Bridge Boogaloo!
Well the East Bay Bridge should get its reality series at this point.
http://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/bay-bridge/article12793520.html
Here we go again this is crazy.
Good luck to the new Bay Bridge, it was 25 years in the making. Someone said "Chinese" materials were used, but what if they were Japanese materials from a country well accustomed to earthquakes? I find the Bay Bridge of more importance than the scenic Golden Gate: how can drivers easily cross the bay from SF or Oakland, two of the Bay area's 3 largest cities (San Jose being the largest) to vice versa? Let's pray the Bay area won't have a similar size M7+ earthquake (not just 1989, think of the 1906 disaster) for a LONG time...or at least the Bay Bridge remains sturdy.
Quote from: Mike D boy on March 12, 2015, 09:13:44 PM
Good luck to the new Bay Bridge, it was 25 years in the making. Someone said "Chinese" materials were used, but what if they were Japanese materials from a country well accustomed to earthquakes? I find the Bay Bridge of more importance than the scenic Golden Gate: how can drivers easily cross the bay from SF or Oakland, two of the Bay area's 3 largest cities (San Jose being the largest) to vice versa? Let's pray the Bay area won't have a similar size M7+ earthquake (not just 1989, think of the 1906 disaster) for a LONG time...or at least the Bay Bridge remains sturdy.
If said M7+ did happen again, I wonder the effects on both spans in regards to Treasure Island.
Quote from: Mike D boy on March 12, 2015, 09:13:44 PM
Someone said "Chinese" materials were used, but what if they were Japanese materials from a country well accustomed to earthquakes?
It's not so much the materials... Rather, the manufacturing processes were not adhered to by the foreign company, and various quality control/inspection measures with the materials were overlooked or ignored. Various costly deficiencies have been the too-common result.
Although, there have been construction problems and oversights as well...so it's not all on the material manufacturing, but I think that is the cause of the bulk of the issues.
Well, there's the other bridges... San Mateo and Dumbarton and San Rafael + Golden Gate. And within a few weeks they could probably get car ferries running again.
But, yeah, serious inconvenience.
Quote from: 707 on March 12, 2015, 09:39:58 PM
Quote from: Mike D boy on March 12, 2015, 09:13:44 PM
Good luck to the new Bay Bridge, it was 25 years in the making. Someone said "Chinese" materials were used, but what if they were Japanese materials from a country well accustomed to earthquakes? I find the Bay Bridge of more importance than the scenic Golden Gate: how can drivers easily cross the bay from SF or Oakland, two of the Bay area's 3 largest cities (San Jose being the largest) to vice versa? Let's pray the Bay area won't have a similar size M7+ earthquake (not just 1989, think of the 1906 disaster) for a LONG time...or at least the Bay Bridge remains sturdy.
If said M7+ did happen again, I wonder the effects on both spans in regards to Treasure Island.
Funny you should say that. The USGS released a new forecast for the San Francisco Bay Area where the chance of a M6.7 within the next 30 years is 72% and the chance of a M7.0 is 50-50.
http://www.mercurynews.com/News/ci_27686200/Big-Bay-Area-quake:-When-and-where-is-it-most-likely-to-happen
Quote from: Mike D boy on March 12, 2015, 09:13:44 PM
Someone said "Chinese" materials were used
What, like paper armor?
Here is aerial photo of the new Bay Bridge I took while flying over Bay area on April 13, 2015.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnaru.yamatonetwork.net%2FMapProjects%2FUS-CA%2FSF%2FSAM_4311.JPG&hash=f16c5ffbe5fc82093541298d5e78eeaec6aab99e) (http://naru.yamatonetwork.net/MapProjects/US-CA/SF/SAM_4311.JPG)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnaru.yamatonetwork.net%2FMapProjects%2FUS-CA%2FSF%2FSAM_4312.JPG&hash=582a12acd1cc8d74ce27e98c7295f8bc820ecbce) (http://naru.yamatonetwork.net/MapProjects/US-CA/SF/SAM_4312.JPG)
Beautiful pictures! :clap:
The beat goes on...
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Anchor-rod-on-Bay-Bridge-may-have-snapped-6178607.php
QuoteCaltrans has uncovered evidence that one of the 25-foot-long rods that anchor the new Bay Bridge eastern span's tower may have snapped after being installed, a finding that could cast doubt on hundreds of other rods exposed to corrosion-causing water for two years before a construction defect was discovered.
Agency officials cautioned that tests are needed to determine whether the rod, which is encased in a grout-filled sleeve at the base of the tower, is indeed broken.
An ultrasonic test performed late last month indicates that the steel fastener may be as much as 6 inches shorter than the other rods, Caltrans officials say. It could have snapped at the bottom because of corrosion, or it could simply have been cut or made shorter than the other 400-plus rods at the tower's base, they say.
The answer could determine whether Caltrans must bolster the tower's anchoring system.
All 422 rods in the tower underwent an ultrasonic test to determine their viability after Caltrans discovered that many of them had sat in water because of a contractor's failure to seal and grout their sleeves properly.
One of an additional two rods that were removed earlier showed microscopic cracking, and Caltrans is conducting more tests on that fastener to determine the cause.
The rod that showed signs of being short was the only fastener that appeared to have any problems based on the ultrasonic tests, Caltrans officials said.
"The good news is that 421 passed the test," said Dan McElhinney, a Caltrans district manager. "One was short, and there was not a clear understanding of why."
And more, both on the condition of the cable of the new bridge and the removal of the E-3 pier, a major section of the old span (on Nov 7, 2015)...
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/10/04/bay-bridge-designer-warns-caltrans-leaks-corrode-main-cable/
QuoteThe lead designer of the Bay Bridge has warned Caltrans that the cable that holds up the new bridge's eastern span is vulnerable to corrosion because of rainwater leaking into its anchorages.
Bridge officials have been preoccupied with the possibility that rods at the base of the span's tower could be corroded by water but lead designer Marwan Nader of the T.Y. Lin International design firm in San Francisco said the bigger concern is the cable – specifically, the twin steel boxes where the cable is anchored inside the span's deck.
On the span, the cable is protected from the elements by a steel jacket. But in the anchorages on either side of the eastern end, the strands fan out and are exposed, and if water gets to them, they can corrode and fail.
The corrosion danger is very real on the $6.4 billion project, Nader told a Caltrans-convened peer review panel in July. According to minutes of the meeting, released only recently, Caltrans officials acknowledged that rainwater has been flowing into the two anchorages because of design problems with the guardrail system.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Caltrans-Gets-Final-Approval-to-Implode-Largest-Pier-of-Old-Bay-Bridge-330357261.html
QuoteCaltrans has secured the final of several permits necessary to demolish the largest pier of the old eastern span of the Bay Bridge using nearly 400 small explosives, a Bay Bridge spokeswoman said Thursday.
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers signed off on the planned implosion of Pier E3 on Wednesday night and the demolition is scheduled to happen on the morning of Nov. 7, Bay Bridge spokeswoman Leah Robinson-Leach said.
The implosion is expected to last only six seconds and pull the concrete debris from the destroyed pier down into its own buried cavities. A "bubble curtain" of compressed air will contain the blast.
The Bay Bridge will need to be closed for up to 15 minutes that morning. California Highway Patrol officers will be on hand to stop traffic on the bridge and keep any boaters out of the area.
Caltrans has touted the implosion as the best solution for both the environment and the demolition project's budget. Mechanically removing the pier would take months and require building a dam around it, significantly disrupting area wildlife, according to project engineers.
If it works on Pier E3, Caltrans may seek future permits to demolish the remaining 21 smaller piers the same way. Pier E3 is the largest -- a 268-foot chunk of concrete buried 165 feet in the soft bay mud. It has already been partially dismantled in preparation for the implosion.
Caltrans has had to contend with a number of environmental concerns in planning the implosion, mainly the possible impact on area mammals like seals, sea lions and porpoises. Monitors will be keeping close watch to make sure no mammals wander into the area.
If any animals are spotted, the blast will be postponed. The timing was crucial as it was chosen to be when the fewest marine mammals would be in the area of the pier.
Environmental watchdog group Baykeeper has raised concerns about whether the bubble curtain can in fact contain the concrete debris and prevent it from polluting the bay. They have said they will be closely watching November's implosion.
Caltrans has been securing permits for months. The project required sign-off by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the National Marine Fisheries Service, the state Department of Fish and Wildlife, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, among other agencies.
Implosion of the largest pier of the old Bay Bridge occurred at 7:15 am on Saturday on 11/14/15. Video link here:
http://patch.com/california/millvalley/watch-caltrans-destroys-bay-bridge-pier-dramatic-implosion
The eastern span of the Bay Bridge has many leaks plugged as a result of applying industrial-grade caulk. The San Francisco Chronicle heralded this solution as a "big win" for Caltrans in the ongoing difficulties with the new eastern span.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Big-win-for-Caltrans-Leaks-plugged-on-Bay-Bridge-6778388.php
QuoteAfter spending more than $1.4 million trying to plug leaks that put the cable of the Bay Bridge's new eastern span at risk of corrosion, Caltrans says it has finally hit on a fix that costs less than $100,000 – and has all but eliminated a problem that plagued the project for years.
The relatively simple solution could eliminate what the bridge's chief designer last year called a significant concern to the $6.4 billion span: leaks that could cause rust and other damage to the cable at its anchorages.
Even with rains drenching the Bay Area this month, bridge officials said, almost no water is making it into the hollow steel structures that support the eastern span's two roadways and house its cable anchorages. ...
Caltrans struggled with water leaking into the steel support structures even during construction. The problem got worse after the bridge opened in September 2013, when rainwater began to drip underneath the road decks and onto the two anchorages where strands of the cable are tied.
It quickly became clear that hundreds of holes, drilled into the deck so steel guardrails could be bolted in place, were letting the water in. That raised the possibility that corrosion could spread through a structure that is supposed to be water-free.
Just how the water was getting to the holes, however, wasn't clear. Caltrans engineers eventually blamed a change made during construction that eliminated metal plates intended to keep rainwater from pooling inside the hollow structures, and spent $1.4 million on a complicated sealant job. ...
Caltrans said the bill for the caulking will amount to less than $100,000. Brown said the sealant will have to be replaced about every seven years – a fix that will be much simpler, and cheaper, than some of the proposals that had been suggested for protecting the cable, such as re-engineering how the guardrails are anchored.
http://abc7news.com/traffic/caltrans-leaks-plugged-in-bay-bridge-eastern-span/1171530/
QuoteCaltrans has found a simple and cheap solution to eliminate leaks in the Bay Bridge's new eastern span that could cause corrosion and other damage to the cable at its anchorages, authorities announced.
Bridge officials said almost no water is making it into the hollow steel structures despite recent heavy rains thanks to industrial-grade caulk used to seal the gaps between the asphalt road surface and the guardrails, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.
"Everything is looking pretty good," said Dan McElhinney, the Caltrans district official in charge of the eastern span project.
Caltrans struggled with water leaking into the steel support structures during construction and the problem got worse after the bridge opened in September 2013, when rainwater began to drip underneath the road decks.
The simple solution comes after authorities spent more than $1.4 million trying to plug the leaks to keep rainwater from pooling inside the hollow structures.
Just think of all those new caulking jobs created.
Wonder what the unintended negative side effect(s) of the caulk will be ??
I hope they remember to check the caulking regularly. I can just see that job being cut from the budget next time there's a crisis.
Only on AARoads would you find discussion of caulking in such detail. Yay for caulking jobs! ;)
Quote from: kkt on January 31, 2016, 06:31:40 PM
I hope they remember to check the caulking regularly. I can just see that job being cut from the budget next time there's a crisis.
What I could plausibly see is a judgement being made at some point that the seven years was decided based on average lifespan X of the caulking material, and eight or nine years is still within acceptable failure likelihood, until it fails and something else therefore fails and there's an incident and an inquiry...
It's like a disaster movie plot where they say "Relax, the only way anything can go wrong is if someone fails to [minor thing that always gets neglected]."
So there are a lot of holes that need to be filled with caulk? They are going to need a lot of caulk experts. I hope they can find enough people in the Bay Area who really know their caulk. And once they've put their caulk in all those holes, someone will need to periodically inspect their caulk. Caulk inspection is important so you can detect a problem before it gets out of hand. You're only going to want good caulk. The inspectors will not be satisfied if there is bad caulk filling those holes.
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on January 31, 2016, 07:25:11 PM
Only on AARoads would you find discussion of caulking in such detail. Yay for caulking jobs! ;)
Yes there is a lot of interest in caulk. Some people just love caulk. It's not everyone's favorite, but I for one am glad there are people who care about good, quality caulk.
:bigass:
Are there any boutique caulk shops on Rodeo Drive ??
Heaven forbid they use the cheap crap from Menards.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 31, 2016, 09:58:20 PM
So there are a lot of holes that need to be filled with caulk? They are going to need a lot of caulk experts. I hope they can find enough people in the Bay Area who really know their caulk. And once they've put their caulk in all those holes, someone will need to periodically inspect their caulk. Caulk inspection is important so you can detect a problem before it gets out of hand. You're only going to want good caulk. The inspectors will not be satisfied if there is bad caulk filling those holes.
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on January 31, 2016, 07:25:11 PM
Only on AARoads would you find discussion of caulking in such detail. Yay for caulking jobs! ;)
Yes there is a lot of interest in caulk. Some people just love caulk. It's not everyone's favorite, but I for one am glad there are people who care about good, quality caulk.
:bigass:
With these jokes, you have everyone's first day of being a painter out of the way. Congratulations.
Quote from: Jardine on January 31, 2016, 10:15:02 PM
Heaven forbid they use the cheap crap from Menards.
Caltrans is highly unlikely to do this... Mainly because there's no Menards locations out west–Lowes or Home Depot maybe... :pan:
As I recall, the Golden Gate Bridge sheet piling was 'caulked' with grains of wheat.
Wonder if they were on to something ?
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on January 31, 2016, 07:25:11 PM
Only on AARoads would you find discussion of caulking in such detail. Yay for caulking jobs! ;)
We're expanding from being a font forum to also being a caulking forum. Someone alert the Clearview developers!
What kind of font should be used to label a caulked goat ??
Quote from: Jardine on February 01, 2016, 10:08:49 PM
What kind of font should be used to label a caulked goat ??
Comic Sans
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 31, 2016, 10:55:25 PM
With these jokes, you have everyone's first day of being a painter out of the way. Congratulations.
I couldn't resist a little sophomoric humor. :sombrero:
Okay, a lot. :biggrin:
In Oregon our loggers wear caulk boots. The word is pronounced as "cork" though and it used to be common to see signs in stores and cafes saying "No caulk boots allowed". If you saw the big spikes on those boots you would know why!
Rick
Demolition of the old bay bridge continues, with phase 2 focusing on the removal of the remaining truss segments.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/02/04/crews-lowering-truss-old-bay-bridge-span/
QuoteA major section of the old eastern span of the Bay Bridge began coming down Thursday morning.
In the second part of the three-phase process of dismantling the old eastern span, crews on Thursday began lowering a 504-foot truss that weighs about 2,500 tons.
There are five such trusses that were built in 1935 and they combine to stretch for about a half-mile, from Pier E4 to Pier E9.
Caltrans spokeswoman Leah Robinson-Leach said the work Thursday will focus on severing the truss from the bridge's towers and beginning its slow descent to the Bay below.
QuoteThe first phase in taking down the old eastern span was completed at the end of last year with the complete demolition of the cantilever section and the S-curve to Yerba Buena Island.
The second phase is removing the five 504-foot trusses and then removing 14 288-foot truss span sections that extend to the Oakland shore. The third phase will focus on demolishing the span's remaining marine foundations.
Official webpage http://www.baybridgeinfo.org/demolition has pictures.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 31, 2016, 09:58:20 PM
So there are a lot of holes that need to be filled with caulk? They are going to need a lot of caulk experts. I hope they can find enough people in the Bay Area who really know their caulk. And once they've put their caulk in all those holes, someone will need to periodically inspect their caulk. Caulk inspection is important so you can detect a problem before it gets out of hand. You're only going to want good caulk. The inspectors will not be satisfied if there is bad caulk filling those holes.
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on January 31, 2016, 07:25:11 PM
Only on AARoads would you find discussion of caulking in such detail. Yay for caulking jobs! ;)
Yes there is a lot of interest in caulk. Some people just love caulk. It's not everyone's favorite, but I for one am glad there are people who care about good, quality caulk.
:bigass:
Now what about duct tape?
Continuing on with the Bay Bridge blame game... http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Bridge-contractor-says-Caltrans-owes-50-6824865.php
QuoteThe main contractor on the new eastern span of the Bay Bridge says Caltrans owes it nearly $50 million – a large chunk of what could add up to $140 million in cost overruns on the project.
Caltrans revealed the demand Thursday from the main contractor, a joint venture called American Bridge/Fluor. Officials did not say what the disputed costs were for, but they acknowledged that the state will probably have to pay at least some of them, depending on the outcome of an expected arbitration process.
"As a risk manager, I need to be conservative in my approach," said Caltrans official Patrick Treacy, who said he was including the full $49.9 million bill from American Bridge/Fluor in his estimate that the bridge could end up $140 million in the red. "I'm trying to capture the pessimistic outlook." ...
Caltrans, however, has its own issues with American Bridge/Fluor. In September, it demanded $11 million from the joint venture for problems with high-strength steel rods on the bridge, including the failure of 32 of them on seismic-stabilizing structures in 2013. Caltrans also held American/Bridge Fluor responsible for flooding problems in the bridge tower's foundation that could expose more than 400 anchor rods to corrosion.
American Bridge/Fluor challenged the penalty, and that issue will now be part of the arbitration, said Andrew Fremier, deputy director of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission.
American Bridge/Fluor representatives have not commented about the project, but they have previously defended the quality of the joint venture's work, and said they would help Caltrans fix the tower rods problem. They did not appear at the meeting Thursday.
Construction delays and environmental protection efforts are contributing to the potential $140 million deficit on the bridge project, which already has cost $6.4 billion. Transportation officials have said there is enough money in toll-payer-financed funds to cover the repairs without having to bump up the cost of driving across Bay Area bridges. Tolls were last raised in 2010.
On a related note, the Yerba Buena Tunnel has recently seen damage to its interior causing chunks of concrete to fail.
http://abc7news.com/traffic/caltrans-finds-series-of-weak-spots-in-yerba-buena-tunnel/1213977/
QuoteCaltrans says there is a series of weak spots inside the Yerba Buena Tunnel. It is concrete that has been compromised by rainwater leaking into the 80-year-old structure. ...
When the new eastern span of the Bay Bridge opened, the Yerba Buena Tunnel received a new paint job, but that was about it. It hasn't had a major renovation in more than 50 years and it is starting to show. "There were 13 spots that were discovered," Caltrans spokesperson Myeast McCauley said.
In fact, Caltrans tests now reveal a pattern of failure, due to corrosion caused by rainwater. It's the same eastbound tunnel where a chunk of concrete gave way in January damaging a car while narrowly missing the driver.
So,
more caulk ?
More Bay Bridge problems? Why couldn't they build it right the first time?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 04, 2016, 05:16:53 PM
More Bay Bridge problems? Why couldn't they build it right the first time?
This is the tunnel, not part of the new east span project. So it is basically the 1930s tunnel. The ceiling of the upper deck was raised in the 1950s, but that probably didn't do anything about rain leaking in.
I didn't want to open a new thread on the Bay Bridge given there are so many so I just found the one that hit the criteria I thought fit best. Recently drove the Bay Bridge for the first time since 1993 which of course would include the somewhat new eastern span:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2019/03/interstate-80-over-san-francisco.html
I went a little overboard on the history of routes connecting to the Bay Bridge but I thought they had merit to the topic. My photo set for the Bay Bridge can be found below:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmAZWcxG
Drove the Bay Bridge eastbound this afternoon:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmzZYGX4