I am considering a trip to Monument Valley Utah, and the Grand Canyon area of Arizona if I can find a cheap flight from Buffalo to either Pheonix, Salt Lake City, or Las Vegas at the end of next week. I am wondering if anybody has taken to the time to explore this area and can recommend any good scenic roads in this part of the US. This is new territory for me, and I am looking more for amazing scenery than interesting road signs or anything like that.
I am familiar with the US-89 failure in Page.
Suggestions?
If I were to prioritize, besides US-163.
1. UT-12. You simply must drive this. It's amazing.
2. UT-9. It's expensive to drive through Zion, but very cool and if you're coming all the way from Buffalo what's another $25. Plus you'll get access to the other national parks. Check out Bryce Canyon and Kodachrome State Park too
3. CO-141 from Delta to Cortez. It might be a bit off your beaten path, but that's a breathtaking road with little tourist traffic. If you can, do it southbound.
The Moki Dugway (UT-261) is an interesting novelty. It's a must for a roadgeek, I guess, but honestly the scenery isn't super amazing there, but if you're clinching US-163 do it just to do it.
If you fly into Phoenix, I'd take 93->89->89A up one way. That's also quite beautiful- the red rocks of Sedona and the interestingness that is Jerome.
US 89A is a nice drive, but it does get tricky with the 89A closure. Arizona 98 and US-160 out to Kayenta is fairly boring. The Navajo National Monument (AZ 564) has some nice scenery nearby though.
Then obviously there's Arches and Canyonlands and the whole Moab area, and that's amazing too.
I would also add UT-95 as a recommendation, and you're likely to get onto UT-24 as well - if not on purpose, then by the necessity of getting to Point B.
also consider flying into Denver, and taking I-70 out.
I'd also recommend Antelope Canyon. it is a guided tour; information available here. it may be a bear to get to Page because of the US-89 break, though.
https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2009/11/30/antelope-canyon-ii/
If the flight is going to be taken (rather than purchased) next week, it's probably too soon, but the North Rim of the Grand Canyon (accessible in-season from US Alt 89) is very different and less crowded, and I think better, than the South Rim. Not that the South Rim is completely safe from winter storm closures.
I agree with Corco that AZ 98 and US 160 to Kayenta is pretty boring, though maybe unavoidable.
Gotta hit Arches, Canyonlands, and Bryce Canyon, and Zion. Monument Valley itself isn't very exciting. Hit the Moki Dugway too and I-15 through AZ. YOu can map a good route and I know of many good places to stay too if you message me once you decide.
I have been looking at flights, it is a fair bit cheaper to fly into Denver than it is to Pheonix. My preference is Pheonix, as I wouldn't mind to drive a few freeways in the area and enjoy an In'n'Out burger while there. I'll probably book later tonight. I plan to fly in on Wednesday evening next week, and out late in the evening on the following Monday, so I don't have days to spend driving between the airport and destinations.
Maybe the south rim of the Grand Canyon is too ambitions if I fly into Denver? It sounds like most of the really interesting roads are to the north and east of the Grand Canyon anyways.
Fly into Vegas, it's much cheaper and you're much closer to GC & Utah
Quote from: texaskdog on March 13, 2013, 03:35:45 PMMonument Valley itself isn't very exciting. Hit the Moki Dugway too and I-15 through AZ.
While the Dugway is unpaved, I wouldn't worry much about the rental car contract limit on driving unpaved roads. It's in pretty good shape, and my Prius took it in stride in both directions (the 10% grade wasn't an issue uphill).
OTOH, I did I-15 in Arizona just a few weeks ago, and it was a letdown. I-70 through Glenwood Canyon in Colorado is far better, and would be a logical part of a round-trip out of Denver. But if you do I-15 in Arizona, it's not too far from segments of I-15 in Utah posted at 80mph.
I thought Monument Valley was really neat in sunny weather, not so much under overcast.
Quote from: oscar on March 14, 2013, 11:36:14 AM
While the Dugway is unpaved, I wouldn't worry much about the rental car contract limit on driving unpaved roads. It's in pretty good shape, and my Prius took it in stride in both directions (the 10% grade wasn't an issue uphill).
that's it!? here I had thought it was something crazy like a 40% grade. that's why I had never done it.
wow, I'm totally missing out.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 14, 2013, 12:31:50 PMhere I had thought it was something crazy like a 40% grade. that's why I had never done it.
wow, I'm totally missing out.
You need to do FM 170 east of Presidio, Texas--there I think the grade gets up to 17%.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2013, 12:40:36 PM
You need to do FM 170 east of Presidio, Texas--there I think the grade gets up to 17%.
I've done that one. but that road is paved, thus ostensibly better traction. there's a couple of roads in the Sierras (CA-4, CA-108) that get to 26% or so, but again all paved.
I've done a 43% two-track in Iceland, and that needed every bit of four wheel drive we had. I had thought the Dugway would be similar, which is why I never dared to go down it in a sedan.
Quotethat's it!? here I had thought it was something crazy like a 40% grade. that's why I had never done it.
wow, I'm totally missing out.
I'd bet 100s of dollars you've driven things far more challenging than the Moki Dugway. It's really not a technically challenging drive at all.
Quote from: corco on March 14, 2013, 12:54:21 PM
I'd bet 100s of dollars you've driven things far more challenging than the Moki Dugway. It's really not a technically challenging drive at all.
I sure have.
this photo which I just googled reminds me very much of an old US-64 alignment in New Mexico.
http://goo.gl/maps/ztWgo
Moki Dugway:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.midwestroads.com%2Fotherstates%2Fmokidugway%2Fmoki-20050903-1193m.jpg&hash=0ceed1ee86672204b62c065aea19b62e69ae8ca6)
Arroyo Hondo bridge approach:
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/blog/photos/090076.jpg)
I did that one in a Prius, which is about as low a clearance a vehicle as exists on the road. probably about 12% grade.
The Shafer Trail in Canyonlands N.P. got my adrenalin going (not my video):
Quote from: oscar on March 14, 2013, 11:36:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on March 13, 2013, 03:35:45 PMMonument Valley itself isn't very exciting. Hit the Moki Dugway too and I-15 through AZ.
While the Dugway is unpaved, I wouldn't worry much about the rental car contract limit on driving unpaved roads. It's in pretty good shape, and my Prius took it in stride in both directions (the 10% grade wasn't an issue uphill).
OTOH, I did I-15 in Arizona just a few weeks ago, and it was a letdown. I-70 through Glenwood Canyon in Colorado is far better, and would be a logical part of a round-trip out of Denver. But if you do I-15 in Arizona, it's not too far from segments of I-15 in Utah posted at 80mph.
I thought Monument Valley was really neat in sunny weather, not so much under overcast.
Dang, I didn't even think about the rental car unpaved roads rule when we were on it in 2011. Oops.
Post Merge: March 14, 2013, 11:06:33 PM
Forgot about the rental car rule when we went in 2011, oops!!! Moki does get pretty narrow but two cars can pass. Worth the visit and not way out of the way.
I booked a flight out of Phonex for arriving on Wednesday.
This is my tentaive routing idea:
http://goo.gl/maps/ua8b2
Stay in Phoenix on Wednesday night
Thursday: Start in Phoenix, east along US-60 to Globe then northwest through Tonto National Park through to Camper Verde then west along I-40 staying the night in Kingman.
Friday: Start in Kingman, northwest towards the Hoover Dam towards with a quick stop in Temple Bar, and seeing the Hoover Dam from the new US-93 bridge. Pretty well straight through Las Vegas and Stay the night in Washington or Bloomington Hills UT
Saturday: Utah, drive east through Zion, Bryce Canyon through to I-70 where I take that through the San Rafael Swell. Follow I-70 east through to Grand Junction CO.
Sunday: South along US50/550 and CO 145 and then back north through Moab and then staying in Salina Sunday:
Monday:Southerly from Salina towards Page and then staying in Flagstaff.
Tusday: Grand Canyon area around Flagstaff and then return to Phoenix for overnight flight back to Buffalo for Wednesday
Anybody have any thoughts? is this too ambitious? Am I missing anything obvious? I wouldn't mind to get out of the car a couple of times to go for a hike for an hour. Any recommendations in parks that aren't too far off my beaten path?
I appreciate any feedback. While I have been to the Hoover Dam before, everything else is un trodden territory for me.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on March 19, 2013, 02:11:20 AM
Friday: Start in Kingman, northwest towards the Hoover Dam towards with a quick stop in Temple Bar, and seeing the Hoover Dam from the new US-93 bridge.
You won't be able to see Hoover Dam while driving across the bridge. Plan on a short detour off US 93 to a parking area for the pedestrian walkway on the bridge, which will have clear views of the dam.
Thereafter, you can also drive to the dam, for excellent views of the bridge.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on March 19, 2013, 02:11:20 AM
Monday:Southerly from Salina towards Page and then staying in Flagstaff.
US 89 between Page and Flagstaff is closed indefinitely due to a landslide. If you don't want to see the Glen Canyon dam, take US 89A from Kanab to US 89. If you want to see the dam, then you will be detouring east along AZ 98 to US 160 and US 160 back to US 89.
QuoteThursday: Start in Phoenix, east along US-60 to Globe then northwest through Tonto National Park through to Camper Verde then west along I-40 staying the night in Kingman.
Friday: Start in Kingman, northwest towards the Hoover Dam towards with a quick stop in Temple Bar, and seeing the Hoover Dam from the new US-93 bridge. Pretty well straight through Las Vegas and Stay the night in Washington or Bloomington Hills UT
If you can, I'd stay on 260 to Cottonwood, then 89A south to 89 to I-40. That would easily be one of the most scenic stretches on your entire trip.
On your way through the Tonto National Forest, definitely stop at Tonto Natural Bridge State Park if you like to get outside.
I'm not sure what your Friday plans are, but if it were me I'd try to spend the night in Williams or Ash Fork and then tack the rest of that I-40 driving onto Friday, since your Friday is pretty light on driving and that area, besides Hoover Dam, has a lot less to see.
Alternatively, if there's a way to do less driving on Saturday and spread out your Vegas-Grand Junction stretch, that would be ideal too. Especially if you want to get outside- you're going to want to go for your hikes and things around Escalante. I don't know what your Salina->Page plans are, but if it's just US 89- that is a scenic stretch of road, but piddly compared to some of the other stuff you'll be seeing, so maybe get more into that day.
Quote from: oscar on March 19, 2013, 06:07:30 AM
You won't be able to see Hoover Dam while driving across the bridge. Plan on a short detour off US 93 to a parking area for the pedestrian walkway on the bridge, which will have clear views of the dam.
Thereafter, you can also drive to the dam, for excellent views of the bridge.
there might be TSA there. fuck the Hoover Dam.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 19, 2013, 12:09:34 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 19, 2013, 06:07:30 AM
You won't be able to see Hoover Dam while driving across the bridge. Plan on a short detour off US 93 to a parking area for the pedestrian walkway on the bridge, which will have clear views of the dam.
Thereafter, you can also drive to the dam, for excellent views of the bridge.
there might be TSA there. fuck the Hoover Dam.
Nobody messed with me when I took lots of bridge photos from the dam. Once heavy trucks were banned from the dam, and diverted to the bridge, the concern level dropped a lot.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on March 19, 2013, 02:11:20 AM
I booked a flight out of Phonex for arriving on Wednesday.
This is my tentaive routing idea:
http://goo.gl/maps/ua8b2
Stay in Phoenix on Wednesday night
Thursday: Start in Phoenix, east along US-60 to Globe then northwest through Tonto National Park through to Camper Verde then west along I-40 staying the night in Kingman.
Friday: Start in Kingman, northwest towards the Hoover Dam towards with a quick stop in Temple Bar, and seeing the Hoover Dam from the new US-93 bridge. Pretty well straight through Las Vegas and Stay the night in Washington or Bloomington Hills UT
Saturday: Utah, drive east through Zion, Bryce Canyon through to I-70 where I take that through the San Rafael Swell. Follow I-70 east through to Grand Junction CO.
Sunday: South along US50/550 and CO 145 and then back north through Moab and then staying in Salina Sunday:
Monday:Southerly from Salina towards Page and then staying in Flagstaff.
Tusday: Grand Canyon area around Flagstaff and then return to Phoenix for overnight flight back to Buffalo for Wednesday
Anybody have any thoughts? is this too ambitious? Am I missing anything obvious? I wouldn't mind to get out of the car a couple of times to go for a hike for an hour. Any recommendations in parks that aren't too far off my beaten path?
I appreciate any feedback. While I have been to the Hoover Dam before, everything else is un trodden territory for me.
I wouldn't do both Zion & Bryce along with a lot of other driving in one day. Spend a day in each if possible. 70 isn't that interesting west of the swell, which can be easily accessed from 24 from the east. Utah 12 east of Bryce is not to be missed...take that to Torrey, hit capitol reef if you have time, head NE to Hanksville and go a few miles west when you get to 70 to see the swell. I would do Moab after the Swell and then jump back to I-70 east rather than double back.
and for all these parks, spend the $80 on the annual park pass. You'll likely already come out ahead and have it to use for a full year.
Quote from: corco on March 19, 2013, 11:49:41 AM
I'm not sure what your Friday plans are, but if it were me I'd try to spend the night in Williams or Ash Fork and then tack the rest of that I-40 driving onto Friday, since your Friday is pretty light on driving and that area, besides Hoover Dam, has a lot less to see.
I live in Williams and would be happy to give advice on the local area if you decide to stay near here.
Well, despite Delta's best efforts I made it to Phoenix this morning. Arizona is amazing. I was blown away in Tonto National Park, and that was just day one.
US-60 east of Superior:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FUS%2F60%2FUS60_aaroads.jpg&hash=1754f7ea0557dbf676c01bd077d51717a238507c)
A few more for from Friday's journey. Friday I stopped at the Grand Canyon (awesome), and then went east through the Painted Desert following US-89 to US-89A.
Painted desert:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FUS%2F89%2FUS89_aaroads.jpg&hash=8112d6aab170b7c356b8c47823efa88c8232d9c2)
Approaching Lee's Ferry.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FUS%2F89%2FUS89A_aaroads.jpg&hash=9884d4137cf10b87a13ad00f705c541477b9d8c9)
If you have the chance in the Grand Junction Area, either check out Rim Rock Drive through the Colorado National Monument, or CO-65 over the Grand Mesa to Delta. The south rim of Black Canyon National Park east of Montrose, CO is another worthwhile place to check out.
Unfortunately I didn't make it to Grand Junction today. I got sucked into the Moab area and spent almost all day there. I did jump into the southern end of Colorado, in on Hwy 90 and out along US-491. Aside from the multitude of deer along Hwy 141, I found it to be a beautiful area. The climb at Slide Rock is impressive.
Here is my road related highlight from Moab:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FUS%2F191%2FMoab.jpg&hash=b491712e95885f206875bdfe3135a980d356cb1c)
Quote from: thenetwork on March 23, 2013, 10:38:59 AM
If you have the chance in the Grand Junction Area, either check out Rim Rock Drive through the Colorado National Monument, or CO-65 over the Grand Mesa to Delta. The south rim of Black Canyon National Park east of Montrose, CO is another worthwhile place to check out.
Definitely, and it wont delay you much at all since it is a loop!
A few more photos, this time from my last day in Phoenix:
Loop 101 approaching the Loop 202 interchange:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FAZ%2F101%2FAZ101_dv_61_south_aaroads.jpg&hash=d0415a45af10ca3587921a098b4d0fe2b566cace)
Loop 202 approaching the Loop 101 interchange (same one as above, but different vantage point):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FAZ%2F202%2FAZ202_dv_50-5_west_aaroads.jpg&hash=c0736d617152abe664846f600f29300e570c8cd9)
Some button copy remains in Phoenix, but after having a look at what was there last year on AlpsRoads, a lot has been removed:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FAZ%2F101%2Fbuttoncopy.jpg&hash=eaea27e3f1b39c9452753ae4331894ac58cde1bf)
A bonus shot, not in Phoenix, taken yesterday of the Moki Dugway. The Dugway is actually a fairly tame mountain road. Because it is gravel and the switchbacks are so sharp, the Dugway necessitates driving at a pretty slow speed making it an easy climb or descent. It's neat for what it is though.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FUT%2FUT%2F261%2FUT261_Dugway.jpg&hash=5b25ea52e49c46790143e1a358dbe6561f9097e8)
I took many more photos on this trip. I'll likely add a few more to my website over the coming weeks or months until I find my next adventure to populate my camera's memory stick with.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on March 26, 2013, 11:54:56 PM
A few more photos, this time from my last day in Phoenix:
Loop 101 approaching the Loop 202 interchange:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FAZ%2F101%2FAZ101_dv_61_south_aaroads.jpg&hash=d0415a45af10ca3587921a098b4d0fe2b566cace)
Loop 202 approaching the Loop 101 interchange (same one as above, but different vantage point):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FAZ%2F202%2FAZ202_dv_50-5_west_aaroads.jpg&hash=c0736d617152abe664846f600f29300e570c8cd9)
Some button copy remains in Phoenix, but after having a look at what was there last year on AlpsRoads, a lot has been removed:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FAZ%2FAZ%2F101%2Fbuttoncopy.jpg&hash=eaea27e3f1b39c9452753ae4331894ac58cde1bf)
A bonus shot, not in Phoenix, taken yesterday of the Moki Dugway. The Dugway is actually a fairly tame mountain road. Because it is gravel and the switchbacks are so sharp, the Dugway necessitates driving at a pretty slow speed making it an easy climb or descent. It's neat for what it is though.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FUT%2FUT%2F261%2FUT261_Dugway.jpg&hash=5b25ea52e49c46790143e1a358dbe6561f9097e8)
I took many more photos on this trip. I'll likely add a few more to my website over the coming weeks or months until I find my next adventure to populate my camera's memory stick with.
Between signing projects, road widening projects and HOV lane projects, a good chunk of the button copy signs have been wiped out in the Phoenix area. That faded Loop 202 shield is a reminder of why ADOT got rid of most of the older colored shields. The only colored Loop 202 shields left can been seen going southbound on Loop 101 (Pima Freeway) from Thomas Rd to Loop 202, and on the ramp to go to Loop 202 EB or WB. I believe there's another one left going from SB AZ 51 to where it meets I-10 and Loop 202 near downtown Phoenix.
Was there any rhyme or reason as to why a green vs. red 202 marker was used? Based on the name, it would make sense if the Red Mountain Freeway section of 202 was signed with red shields. That would leave green for the Santan Freeway, but there doesn't seem to be a pattern.
Ha, actually- the color for 202 was brown- but I still don't know the answer- I guess brown is a little bit closer to red than green.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corcohighways.org%2Fhighways%2Faz%2F101%2F51to202%2F23.jpg&hash=c3f6fe654051fff194632661fc8fae7811764675)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corcohighways.org%2Fhighways%2Faz%2F101%2F51to202%2F17.jpg&hash=986e1a09a09b43d93595a0b1cf3b97391545faed)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corcohighways.org%2Fhighways%2Faz%2F101%2F51to202%2F14.jpg&hash=a0137b45704e0e6debcc9a5d696a62facc1d587f)
It's a red brown. :)
Oh I think I see what you're saying. Yeah, that "green" shield was brown but has faded- I'm guessing it faces north? (this is why AZ stopped using colored shields- the sun destroys them)
I am not an expert, but I don't think the green shield started out brown. It seems unlikely to me that the shield would have faded that much (and so consistently), while the green sign backboard would have stayed so vibrant.
Brown sheeting fades quickly- that's a large part of why Idaho moved away from brown as their scenic shield color.
Quote from: corco on August 05, 2010, 11:57:54 AM
3) The Brown inks and sheeting fade faster than the colors of the standard shields, requiring more frequent replacement.
I'll try to find some other shots of brown signs in Arizona that face the sun- there's some that look similarly awful but I'm not sure when/if I took pictures of them.
There are various brown signs for scenic attractions off I-19 that come to mind as being bad too
Yeah, I went back and looked at my full resolution photo and did notice a little bit vignette of brownish hue around the edges of the sign.
Quote from: corco on May 05, 2013, 01:01:43 PM
Oh I think I see what you're saying. Yeah, that "green" shield was brown but has faded- I'm guessing it faces north? (this is why AZ stopped using colored shields- the sun destroys them)
My guess would be south. North-facing objects in this hemisphere don't get that much direct sun. South-facing New Mexico route markers start looking like New Jersey's pretty quickly.
QuoteMy guess would be south. North-facing objects in this hemisphere don't get that much direct sun. South-facing New Mexico route markers start looking like New Jersey's pretty quickly.
Good call, that's what I meant- you see the sign if you're driving northbound...got em mixed up.
I think the color schemes for the loops were based on what happened to be built first. Loop 101's first section was the Agua Fria Freeway, so blue shields were used. Loop 202's first section was the Red Mountain Freeway. At one point, almost all of Loop 101 had colored shields. The colored Loop 202 shields only made it from downtown Phoenix to Country Club Drive in Mesa.
Quote from: corco on May 05, 2013, 02:40:24 PM
Brown sheeting fades quickly- that's a large part of why Idaho moved away from brown as their scenic shield color.
Quote from: corco on August 05, 2010, 11:57:54 AM
3) The Brown inks and sheeting fade faster than the colors of the standard shields, requiring more frequent replacement.
I'll try to find some other shots of brown signs in Arizona that face the sun- there's some that look similarly awful but I'm not sure when/if I took pictures of them.
There are various brown signs for scenic attractions off I-19 that come to mind as being bad too
Based on some green sheeting on signs in the desert highway areas of Colorado & Utah, when the weather starts cracking them, the signs go from a normal green, to darker green to almost black.
I want to say that the 202 shields were green from the start. The 202 shields may have been brown on day one, but my guess is that because of the tendency to quickly lose it's brown color due to fading from the sun, they were
replaced by newer green 202 shields which would hold their color.
I would think a brown sign would just fade into white before it would turn green.
Loop 101 - Blue
Loop 202 - Brown
Loop 303 - Black
Quote from: mapman1071 on May 06, 2013, 12:03:22 PM
Loop 101 - Blue
Loop 202 - Brown
Loop 303 - Black
Although the colored shields have almost vanished and ADOT is using the plain old white state highway signs.
Quote from: thenetwork on May 06, 2013, 01:54:49 AMThe 202 shields may have been brown on day one, but my guess is that because of the tendency to quickly lose it's brown color due to fading from the sun, they were replaced by newer green 202 shields which would hold their color.
Still no. Only brown ones have ever been created.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on May 05, 2013, 01:17:13 PM
I am not an expert, but I don't think the green shield started out brown. It seems unlikely to me that the shield would have faded that much (and so consistently), while the green sign backboard would have stayed so vibrant.
I can confirm that the "green" 202 sign was originally brown. That is possibly the oldest section of the Loop 101 and was originally only a couple miles long (Southern to University). That section opened to the 202 in around 1993, and is indeed facing south. The other brown 202 shields that you posted all face north and don't suffer from the sun fading.
around the Phoenix area, there is a continuum of shield colors between light brown (badly faded) and green (beyond badly faded), documenting the advanced stages of their decomposition.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 09, 2013, 07:02:18 PMaround the Phoenix area, there is a continuum of shield colors between light brown (badly faded) and green (beyond badly faded), documenting the advanced stages of their decomposition.
Phoenix (and southern Arizona more generally): the Body Farm for screen-process signs.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 10, 2013, 02:17:09 PM
Phoenix (and southern Arizona more generally): the Body Farm for screen-process signs.
I've always wondered why Arizona has the signs fade a lot more. New Mexico, California, and Texas also have areas of similar climate, but it seems to always be Arizona that fares the worst.
I am no expert on the topic of why signs fade, but I suspect that sign fading is directly proportional to the amount of sunlight received in the area. Based on a map I found at http://thephoenixsun.com/about, I believe that most of the Southwest (which has the most sunny days as compared to other regions of the U.S.) tend to have more faded signs. So places without an aggressive sign replacement program will have signs that fade, such as the Loop 202 sign referenced above, in a timeframe that I think is shorter than seen in other parts of the country. Perhaps others on the forum have some technical knowledge to share on why signs (especially retroreflective signs) tend to fade. Already, some reflective signs placed in 2003 along I-5 in San Diego have started to fade, especially those signs along the northbound direction.
Regards,
Andy
I don't recall California having nearly as bad a sign-fading problem. sure, we have lots of faded signs, but that is because ours are positively ancient: 30-40-50 years old. Arizona is very, very aggressive with its sign replacements: the oldest sign I know of surviving in the state is a 1985, an I-40 trailblazer on a side street in Winslow, likely forgotten by the DOT.
QuoteI don't recall California having nearly as bad a sign-fading problem. sure, we have lots of faded signs, but that is because ours are positively ancient: 30-40-50 years old. Arizona is very, very aggressive with its sign replacements: the oldest sign I know of surviving in the state is a 1985, an I-40 trailblazer on a side street in Winslow, likely forgotten by the DOT.
I think that's because California didn't use reflective signage as the primary guide sign standard until 1999 (the first such signs I saw were along California SR 94 when they added the ML King Fwy designation). The older signs are non-reflective/button copy, and for whatever reason, color fading did not happen as readily with those, especially porcelain enamel signs (although those colors do not come through as readily at night). But the newer, reflective signs do show some fading, especially on I-5 southbound/northbound overhead guide signs between La Jolla and I-8 (especially the red color on the interstate shields on the I-8 junction and I-5 pull through signs). Several roadside Interstate shields show the red part of the I-5 and I-8 shields fading to pink. Another example is in El Centro: the city-maintained Imperial Ave Business Loop I-8 signs have seen significant fading (some almost to white), very comparable to what was seen above in the Loop 202 signs in Phoenix. Having said that, Caltrans usually does well with reassurance route marker shield replacements.
Regards,
Andy
yes, the examples I was thinking of are route markers, which are green and white - I just don't know of very many examples of, say, CA-86, 111, 115, other desert numbers, which are as badly faded as some of those 202s.
I know of lots of route shields, as well as various experimental retroreflective guide signs, which are badly faded and they are from the 70s and 80s - not 2001 like the Arizona signs.
I don't claim any particular expertise in terms of sign sheeting life or performance, but I believe there are two factors at work in southern Arizona which may not be present to nearly the same degree in other places at similar latitude with similar climates. First, temperatures are generally much higher--the Phoenix area has daytime highs above 100° F for almost six months of the year. Second, UV light flux may be both higher in absolute terms and more continuous throughout the day. These factors probably work in combination to accelerate the aging of sign sheeting beyond what you would expect in places which have high UV but comparatively lower temperatures (such as upland Colorado) or high temperatures but low UV (such as Texas).
Edit: Link to solar power resource map (http://www.justinholman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/annual_10km_usa_csp2.jpg) (solar power is one possible proxy for the factors that accelerate aging of retroreflective sheeting).
I did a little road trip to northern AZ last week. The most faded signs I've ever seen (that are surprisingly still standing) are the I-17 NB signs for Montezuma Castle National Monument (Exit 289). They were brown at one point, and now they look more like a faded green. Almost no clue those signs were ever brown.
Via the Cross Country Roads website, here's a picture of what the sign looked like back in 2004:
http://www.crosscountryroads.com/Images/AZ%20I%2017%20N/i17azexit289.JPG