AARoads Forum

Hello everybody.. I am a former resident of northern Virginia and now a resident of central Florida.  I've researched my question but still can't find the answer as it stands today.  I have a Sunpass which is interchangeable with EZPass all through Florida.  I also often travel to northern VA which now has toll lanes on the Beltway and probably soon everywhere else, and I also cross Bay Bridge to the eastern shore beaches pretty often.  So before that I ass-u-me that Sunpass and EZPass are interchangeable outside of Florida... will my Sunpass work in EZPass lanes in Virginia and Maryland?

Quote from: norahs on March 18, 2013, 12:04:26 AM
Hello everybody.. I am a former resident of northern Virginia and now a resident of central Florida.  I've researched my question but still can't find the answer as it stands today.  I have a Sunpass which is interchangeable with EZPass all through Florida.  I also often travel to northern VA which now has toll lanes on the Beltway and probably soon everywhere else, and I also cross Bay Bridge to the eastern shore beaches pretty often.  So before that I ass-u-me that Sunpass and EZPass are interchangeable outside of Florida... will my Sunpass work in EZPass lanes in Virginia and Maryland?

As I understand it, E-ZPass and SunPass are working on interoperability, but are not yet there.   

Regarding E-ZPass, I am not aware of any E-ZPass transponder that is accepted in any state to the south of North Carolina (see map here (http://www.e-zpassiag.com/about-e-zpass/where-can-i-use-it)).

SunPass and E-Pass (Orlando area) are interoperable.  LeeWay in Lee County is also part of that interoperability.  Any one of those three transponders will work in any SunPass, E-Pass, or LeeWay lane in Florida.  But they will not work out of Florida.

Don't confuse Orlando's E-Pass with the NE/Midwest's E-ZPass.  They are not the same thing. 

E-ZPasses are different depending on what state you get your tag from.  Not all E-ZPasses are created equal, especially in terms of monthly fees, cost of transponders, and causual use toll discounts.  Generally each state issues their own tags through a state customer service center, and only one toll agency still maintains its own customer service center: the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission still issues their own tags separate from PA Turnpike E-ZPass and New Jersey E-ZPass.  All E-ZPass tags are interoperable across the 14 "pure" E-ZPass states (all E-ZPass states except NC), and as of last fall, all but one of those states calls their tags "E-ZPass"...Illinois still brands their tags I-Pass, but it is fully interoperable with E-ZPass.  And when we say interoperable, we mean "accepted as a valid form of payment"...in many states, causual user toll discounts are only given to those with an E-ZPass tag from that state.  E-ZPass tags from other states are accepted at the full posted cash toll rate.  Other states are nicer and give discounts to anyone with an E-ZPass, regardless of where it is issued. 

North Carolina is a special case.  Their toll system is called NC QuickPass, and it has partial interoperability with E-ZPass.  All E-ZPass tags (and I-Pass tags from IL) are accepted in NC.  But only some NC QuickPass tags are accepted in E-ZPass toll lanes.  Other (the cheaper, sticker tags) are only accepted in NC. 

As was mentioned, E-ZPass and SunPass are working on an interoperability agreement.  But I wouldn't think of it is "A SunPass is also an E-ZPass" with full interoperability.  Most likely it will be more like "A SunPass will be accepted as a valid form of payment at certain E-ZPass facilities, but not others".  This is far more likely.  And it should also be noted that initial interoperability will likely be license plate based, meaning you'll pay with your SunPass ACCOUNT, not with your SunPass TAG.  So as long as your license plate is properly listed on your SunPass account, those E-ZPass facilities with the ability to process video tolls will video toll you, whether or not you actually have your SunPass tag in your car. If you do noy have your license plate listed, you'll be processed as a violator, even if you have the tag mounted on your windshield.  And at those E-ZPass facilities that don't have the capability to do video tolls, the SunPass will not be accepted and you will have to pay cash. 

The same scenario appies in reverse...E-ZPass will likely be accepted in "SunPass Only" lanes, but if there is a gated lane, you'll have to pay cash. 

Quote from: mtantillo on March 18, 2013, 12:46:42 AM
And it should also be noted that initial interoperability will likely be license plate based, meaning you'll pay with your SunPass ACCOUNT, not with your SunPass TAG.  So as long as your license plate is properly listed on your SunPass account, those E-ZPass facilities with the ability to process video tolls will video toll you, whether or not you actually have your SunPass tag in your car. If you do noy have your license plate listed, you'll be processed as a violator, even if you have the tag mounted on your windshield.  And at those E-ZPass facilities that don't have the capability to do video tolls, the SunPass will not be accepted and you will have to pay cash.

This is my understanding of how interoperability will work, at least for starters.

Bottom line, when SunPass/E-ZPass interoperability is announced, you must have your correct state of registration and license plate number or numbers associated with your account online.

Getting technical, apparently E-ZPass states could add the hardware to their existing toll lane readers to accept some form of the SunPass transponder, but there is no agreement (at least not yet) to do that.

But given the amount of traffic betwen SunPass territory and E-ZPass territory, that's a possibility (though does it make financial sense for states at the north end of E-ZPass land (such as New Hampshire and Maine) to spend money to accept SunPass?).  I see a lot of vehicles with Florida registration plates in Maryland and Virginia, but some of those belong to military families that are stationed at one of the several bases in these states.

Thanks everyone... so now I won't go through any toll areas outside of Fla. and just hope I don't have a brain lapse up north and accidentally fly through without thinking.  The map is very useful and I hope they keep it updated.  Why does this all have to be so confusing.. more stuff to have to remember.  I know Florida is working on changing their default license plate design to make it easier to read by the cameras, and thus eliminating the jobs of the toll collectors.  They should just phase out the whole Sunpass thing and make it all EZPass..

Quote from: norahs on March 18, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
Thanks everyone... so now I won't go through any toll areas outside of Fla. and just hope I don't have a brain lapse up north and accidentally fly through without thinking.  The map is very useful and I hope they keep it updated.  Why does this all have to be so confusing.. more stuff to have to remember.  I know Florida is working on changing their default license plate design to make it easier to read by the cameras, and thus eliminating the jobs of the toll collectors.  They should just phase out the whole Sunpass thing and make it all EZPass..

Or you could get an E-ZPass transponder to use while you are in E-ZPass territory.  You can get one at any Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration branch office, and at most Maryland Transportation Authority crossings (Bay Bridge, Fort McHenry Tunnel, but not Md. 200 (ICC)) and certain retailers (details here (https://www.ezpassmd.com/en/onthego/locations.shtml)).  In Virginia, you can get one at several retail outlets (details here (http://www.ezpassva.com/EZPages/OnTheGo.aspx)).

E-ZPass and E-Pass (Orlando) began in 1993 and 1994, respectively. Back then ETC was in its infancy and there was little thought to interoperability.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 18, 2013, 01:11:33 AM

Quote from: norahs on March 18, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
Thanks everyone… so now I won't go through any toll areas outside of Fla. and just hope I don't have a brain lapse up north and accidentally fly through without thinking.  The map is very useful and I hope they keep it updated.  Why does this all have to be so confusing.. more stuff to have to remember.  I know Florida is working on changing their default license plate design to make it easier to read by the cameras, and thus eliminating the jobs of the toll collectors.  They should just phase out the whole Sunpass thing and make it all EZPass..

Or you could get an E-ZPass transponder to use while you are in E-ZPass territory.  You can get one at any Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration branch office, and at most Maryland Transportation Authority crossings (Bay Bridge, Fort McHenry Tunnel, but not Md. 200 (ICC)) and certain retailers (details here (https://www.ezpassmd.com/en/onthego/locations.shtml)).  In Virginia, you can get one at several retail outlets (details here (http://www.ezpassva.com/EZPages/OnTheGo.aspx)).

Or you could sign up for an E-ZPass from Massachusetts.  That might be your best bet, since it is one of the only places left where you can still get a free transponder and not have a monthly maintenance fee (important for infrequent travelers). 

Quote from: norahs on March 18, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
Thanks everyone... so now I won't go through any toll areas outside of Fla. and just hope I don't have a brain lapse up north and accidentally fly through without thinking.  The map is very useful and I hope they keep it updated.  Why does this all have to be so confusing.. more stuff to have to remember.  I know Florida is working on changing their default license plate design to make it easier to read by the cameras, and thus eliminating the jobs of the toll collectors.  They should just phase out the whole Sunpass thing and make it all EZPass..

Depending on where you plan to be driving, avoiding that "brain lapse" can be more important than you might realize. Some E-ZPass facilities still maintain the toll-machine arms in the E-ZPass Only lanes that were converted from machine-style exact-change lanes, meaning you have to slow almost to a complete stop until your E-ZPass registers and the arm goes up. The Dulles Greenway in Virginia, for example, uses that style because the space they were allowed to have for the toll plaza is limited, so they want to maintain maximum flexibility to change whether a given lane is full-service, exact change, or E-ZPass Only.

I don't travel to New York as often as I used to, so I don't know whether this statement is still accurate, but I recall pretty much all of the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority facilities continued to use the arms (presumably to try to prevent toll cheats from speeding through).

In either case, a SunPass will not trigger the arm to go up and you will have a lot of very enraged drivers behind you if you mistakenly enter one of those lanes.

Well the joke is on me.  This convo caused me to research wether I was getting the discounted ez pass rates at the MTA bridges.  I have had an ez pass for almost 10 years from the PA turnpike.

I used to live in PA.  Then I lived in NJ where I would commute to work via the tappan zee bridge.   I still get the 25 cent discount there making the toll 4.75 so I just assumed the mta bridges would be the same.  NOPE!  I have been paying the full jack each time I go to manhattan, which is like once a week.  I pay 10 bucks round trip at the Henry Hudson and 15 bucks round trip at the triboro instead a of 4.88 and 10.66, respectively.

I am really pissed I didn't check this sooner.  For 2 years I have been letting the mta rob me.  Looks like I am getting the panynj discounts when I use the GWB.  I guess I should check my account more often rather than just seeing the 70 bucks replenishment on my Amex and making assumptions. This cost me over 500 dollars.  Son of a €Â£*^%.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 18, 2013, 12:19:06 AM
Regarding E-ZPass, I am not aware of any E-ZPass transponder that is accepted in any state to the south of North Carolina (see map here (http://www.e-zpassiag.com/about-e-zpass/where-can-i-use-it)).

Dear god that map is horrible. Looks like someone opened up MS Paint and scribbled the red lines in. And without actually paying enough attention to keep them geographically accurate - look at how Alligator Alley and the Illinois Tollways are rendered. WTF?

Quote from: Duke87 on March 18, 2013, 10:16:45 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 18, 2013, 12:19:06 AM
Regarding E-ZPass, I am not aware of any E-ZPass transponder that is accepted in any state to the south of North Carolina (see map here (http://www.e-zpassiag.com/about-e-zpass/where-can-i-use-it)).

Dear god that map is horrible. Looks like someone opened up MS Paint and scribbled the red lines in. And without actually paying enough attention to keep them geographically accurate - look at how Alligator Alley and the Illinois Tollways are rendered. WTF?

Agreed.  Though it has the state outlines right, and that is what matters most.  The Dulles Toll Road/Dulles Greenway corridor is totally wrong, the InterCounty Connector is not there at all.

It also looks like large parts of Suffolk and Chesapeake, Va. are under water.

And the Tri-Ex is also missing, even though North Carolina is colored purple.

That's pretty awful, mc78andrew..
Yea, that map isn't exactly elegant but it's good enough, the simpler the better.. if they keep it up to date.  It's just becoming a pain in the neck keeping up with it all as more and more states start putting tolls on interstates.  A long time ago they made Bay Bridge a toll bridge and were supposed to do away with the toll after the bridge was paid for.  Fat chance.  What needs to happen is that the entire United States needs to come up with ONE system to handle all tolls as long as they are working on the license plate id, etc, and they can dole it out to each state as they see fit.  It's a cluster right now, and a good time to start straightening the whole mess out.  I really don't want a removable transponder on my windshield, which is why I put the Sunpass/EZPass gray sticker on it, and that works pretty quickly.  So now it looks like the real answer IS to get a transponder from the state with the best perks, and put it up - hassle.  Yuk.

It would be easier to keep the map up to date if they don't try to put all the toll roads on it.  It was a nice idea when it was the long turnpikes, but now that little toll roads are cropping up everywhere, it would be easier to just do away with it IMO.

Quote from: mc78andrew on March 18, 2013, 10:13:30 PM
Well the joke is on me.  This convo caused me to research wether I was getting the discounted ez pass rates at the MTA bridges.  I have had an ez pass for almost 10 years from the PA turnpike.

I used to live in PA.  Then I lived in NJ where I would commute to work via the tappan zee bridge.   I still get the 25 cent discount there making the toll 4.75 so I just assumed the mta bridges would be the same.  NOPE!  I have been paying the full jack each time I go to manhattan, which is like once a week.  I pay 10 bucks round trip at the Henry Hudson and 15 bucks round trip at the triboro instead a of 4.88 and 10.66, respectively.

I am really pissed I didn't check this sooner.  For 2 years I have been letting the mta rob me.  Looks like I am getting the panynj discounts when I use the GWB.  I guess I should check my account more often rather than just seeing the 70 bucks replenishment on my Amex and making assumptions. This cost me over 500 dollars.  Son of a €Â£*^%.

The MTA eliminated discounts for "foreign" transponders in 2009.  Though non-MTA transponders issued in New York State (Thruway, Port Authority, NYS Bridge Authority, and Peace Bridge) are given the discount as well, as they are all managed by one customer service center and you don't get to pick which agency you get a tag from.  The NJ Turnpike Authority is the only other agency that used to give discounts to all and then restricted them to locally issued tags only.  Other states have always given the discount to all (NC, VA, PA, non MTA NY facilities including PA NYNJ, OH, IN, IL), while the remainder have always restricted discounts to those with a local tag (ME, NH, MA, RI, DE, MD, WV).  Note that I'm refering to single use discounts, not commuter plans, all of which require you to have a locally issued tag with only two exceptions (NJ tagholders can apply for certain NY commuter plans: PANYNJ, NYS Bridge Authority, and some Thruway Authority plans; and the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission will allow you to establish a "companion" account, meaning you have a DRJTBC account linked to a non-DRJTBC tag, and it draws from the DRJTBC account on DRJTBC facilities, but from the other account at all other facilities). 

If you can, the easiest way to get an MTA tag if you cross their facilities is to buy one in a cash toll lane.  It is $30, and that entire $30 will be put into a toll balance if you link it to a credit card.  When you register the tag, you can link it to your bank account with "Pay Per Trip" so that you do not have to maintain a pre-paid toll balance, it will take funds from your bank once per day, essentially turning your tag into a debit card.  Then if you even have the slightest chance of taking more than 3 NY-bound trips via the Outerbridge, Goethals, or Bayonne Bridges, sign up for the "Staten Island Bridges Plan".  You have nothing to lose if you make 0, 1, or 2 trips in a month (0 trips = no charges, 1 or 2 will re-post at the normal rate at the end of the month), but if you take 3 or more, you get through for only $5.25 each. 

If you sign up via mail, you might not get an MTA tag.  If you are assigned a Thruway/Bridge Authority/Peace Bridge tag, you won't be able to do pay per trip.  If you are assigned a Port Authority tag, you will also have a $1/month fee. 

Quote from: mtantillo on March 22, 2013, 05:20:32 PM

Quote from: mc78andrew on March 18, 2013, 10:13:30 PM
Well the joke is on me.  This convo caused me to research wether I was getting the discounted ez pass rates at the MTA bridges.  I have had an ez pass for almost 10 years from the PA turnpike.

I used to live in PA.  Then I lived in NJ where I would commute to work via the tappan zee bridge.   I still get the 25 cent discount there making the toll 4.75 so I just assumed the mta bridges would be the same.  NOPE!  I have been paying the full jack each time I go to manhattan, which is like once a week.  I pay 10 bucks round trip at the Henry Hudson and 15 bucks round trip at the triboro instead a of 4.88 and 10.66, respectively.

I am really pissed I didn't check this sooner.  For 2 years I have been letting the mta rob me.  Looks like I am getting the panynj discounts when I use the GWB.  I guess I should check my account more often rather than just seeing the 70 bucks replenishment on my Amex and making assumptions. This cost me over 500 dollars.  Son of a €Â£*^%.

The MTA eliminated discounts for "foreign" transponders in 2009.  Though non-MTA transponders issued in New York State (Thruway, Port Authority, NYS Bridge Authority, and Peace Bridge) are given the discount as well, as they are all managed by one customer service center and you don't get to pick which agency you get a tag from.  The NJ Turnpike Authority is the only other agency that used to give discounts to all and then restricted them to locally issued tags only.  Other states have always given the discount to all (NC, VA, PA, non MTA NY facilities including PA NYNJ, OH, IN, IL), while the remainder have always restricted discounts to those with a local tag (ME, NH, MA, RI, DE, MD, WV).  Note that I'm refering to single use discounts, not commuter plans, all of which require you to have a locally issued tag with only two exceptions (NJ tagholders can apply for certain NY commuter plans: PANYNJ, NYS Bridge Authority, and some Thruway Authority plans; and the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission will allow you to establish a "companion" account, meaning you have a DRJTBC account linked to a non-DRJTBC tag, and it draws from the DRJTBC account on DRJTBC facilities, but from the other account at all other facilities). 

If you can, the easiest way to get an MTA tag if you cross their facilities is to buy one in a cash toll lane.  It is $30, and that entire $30 will be put into a toll balance if you link it to a credit card.  When you register the tag, you can link it to your bank account with "Pay Per Trip" so that you do not have to maintain a pre-paid toll balance, it will take funds from your bank once per day, essentially turning your tag into a debit card.  Then if you even have the slightest chance of taking more than 3 NY-bound trips via the Outerbridge, Goethals, or Bayonne Bridges, sign up for the "Staten Island Bridges Plan".  You have nothing to lose if you make 0, 1, or 2 trips in a month (0 trips = no charges, 1 or 2 will re-post at the normal rate at the end of the month), but if you take 3 or more, you get through for only $5.25 each. 

If you sign up via mail, you might not get an MTA tag.  If you are assigned a Thruway/Bridge Authority/Peace Bridge tag, you won't be able to do pay per trip.  If you are assigned a Port Authority tag, you will also have a $1/month fee. 

You have just made an excellent case above for the U.S. Congress to get involved and outlaw most forms of discriminatory setting of toll rates. 

The only form of discrimination that should be allowed is for geographic reasons - persons that reside on Staten Island, N.Y. or Grand Island, N.Y. and must cross a toll bridge to get home or leave home.  Perhaps the U.S. 40 Hatem Bridge is a legitimate exception.

And that's what the commuter plans are for.  It should be illegal to discriminate by where the tag is from for discounts or commuter plan eligibility.

Quote from: vdeane on March 24, 2013, 07:51:54 PM
And that's what the commuter plans are for.  It should be illegal to discriminate by where the tag is from for discounts or commuter plan eligibility.

That's a reasonable idea.  I don't like the idea of Congress getting involved in the setting of tolls and related matters, which are much better left to the states.  But Congress can and should ban discrimination by states against toll transponders issued by other states.  At the  same time, Congress can tell the states that breezewoods are not allowed (and perhaps offer federal funding for breezewood remediation projects).

Quote from: vdeane on March 24, 2013, 07:51:54 PM
And that's what the commuter plans are for.  It should be illegal to discriminate by where the tag is from for discounts or commuter plan eligibility.

I sort of agree.  I agree that you should be able to sign up for any commuter plan using a tag from any agency, but I think that it is a reasonable requirement that you have a toll account with the agency that you are getting the commuter discount from.  E-ZPass is set up to exchange money between toll agencies on a "peer to peer" basis, meaning there is no "central clearinghouse" that knows everything about every tag.  So if you use your tag on a "foreign" (out-of-state) toll facility, that toll facility does not have access to your account details.  It will know that your tag is valid, because your home agency sends out a list of every valid tag number the night before.  So instead of processing the transaction in real time, it holds it for a day, and the next day it "bundles" all the transactions that happened using each agency's tags on its facilities, and "sends a request for payment".  Then the agency who has your tag will post the charge to your account using the tag number, will draw the funds from your account (and every other account that paid a toll on the foreign agency's facility) and send a lump sum payment.  In otherwords, between agencies, the E-ZPass network is only set up to deal with a single charge for a single trip. 

Many commuter plans don't charge you per trip, they make you pay a certain amount for multiple trips that can be used within a certain timeframe.  If you don't use all of the trips, you don't get a refund.  If you use up your trips early, the system will purchase another "batch" of trips for you when you use the toll facility next (starting your next cycle at the completion of X trips or Y days, whichever is earlier), OR it will then sell you individual trips at the discounted rate until the plan resets on a certain day of the month.  The E-ZPass network can't process these type transactions between agencies. 

Now what they really should do is allow you to have a "companion account" like Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission does.  So if you have an account with agency X, and you want to use agency Y's commuter plan, you open a separate account with agency Y, but you "BYOT" (Bring Your Own Tag) from another agency.  So if you use a toll facility with agency X, it is billed as a realtime transaction, and if you use a toll facility with any agency other than X or Y, it will be billed as a "foreign transaction" to agency X (since your tag is branded with the 3-digit code for agency X).  If you use a toll facility on agency Y, it will let you through the toll gate knowing that the tag is a valid tag from agency X...but before it sends a request to agency X for payment, the computer will realize that the particular tag has an account with agency Y, and will override the normal procedure to debit the "local" account using the "foreign tag".  No reason why all agencies shouldn't be able to accept accounts with "BYOT"...afterall, it saves them the cost of the tag! And definitely no excuse for giving "single use" discounts to only your home agency's tags. 

I think the problem is that no one really envisioned "discounts to tags from your own agency only" when E-ZPass first came out.  It started in 1993, and I think the NY Thruway charged full fare to everyone.  Then when MTA and PANYNJ came on board, they gave discounts to all tags.  I don't think NJ or PA had discounts when they first got E-ZPass, but I know Delaware did in 1998.  West Virginia was an oddball state...they only gave "annual unlimited permits" to their E-ZPass customers which allowed unlimited use of certain toll plazas on the WV Turnpike...but obviously they took full fare "per trip" transactions if you had an E-ZPass from another state.  Then MA came aboard (merging their FastLane system with E-ZPass) and didn't have any discounts, same with MD.  Then Virginia came with the merger of Smart Tag and E-ZPass, and I think the only facility they had that offered a discount was the Coleman Bridge, and that discount was and still is available to anyone with any tag ($0.85 vs. $2.00 cash, pretty nice discount).  This brings  you up to 2004.  By this time, you had MA, NY, NJ, PA, DE, MD, VA, and WV in the E-ZPass network, and discounts were available to everyone on all facilities. 

Then around 2004/2005-ish, two things happeend.  The Maine Turnpike was coming online.  They had a weird system with a barrier/ramp toll setup for those paying cash, and a distance based "ticket system" for those paying electonically with TransPass.  I'm sure they probably did an economic analysis and realized that all of these out of state drivers that have E-ZPass were paying full fares (in cash), and suddenly the Maine Turnpike might face the prospect of reduced income if all of those people who can suddenly pay electronically will be getting discounted toll rates.  I suppose (especially in summertime) a large proportion of Maine Turnpike transactions are from out-of-state drivers.  So they made a decision to only allow those with a Maine E-ZPass to benefit from the distance based system, while all other tags would be charged the prevailing cash rate.  At the same time, there was a raging debate in NH about electronic tolls vs. tokens.  Tokens for NH toll roads were sold at a big discount, and locals complained at the idea of having to pay full fare.  Obviously, NH didn't want non-locals to get the discount because, like Maine, they have a large portion of out-of-state transactions.  So they made a decision that only NH tags would get discounted rates, and others would pay full fare.  Their rationale was that if you didn't live in NH and wanted a discount, you could just as easily get a NH E-ZPass as you could go out of your way to learn about tokens and purchase a roll of them.  At about the same time Massachusetts was toying with the idea of discounts at their tolls for Massachusetts residents only.  They got sued, and the court said that they could not give discounts to Massachusetts residents only, there has to be some way of allowing those from out of state to have access to the discount.  So they decided that they would give discounts to MA FastLane tags only, and not to out of state E-ZPass tags, in effect giving the discount to only Massachusetts residents, but allowing out-of-state residents to get the discount by opening an account with them. 

So all of a sudden, you have 3 states in the group only giving discounts to their own tag.  I suppose the IAG let NH and ME do it for the sake of getting their buy-in and having the ETC interoperability, and I think that MA was allowed to do it because they were accepted into E-ZPass before anyone thought up this idea, so their membership agreement didn't say they couldn't implement a scheme like this.  Then within the next 5 years, a few more states jumped up and say "hey, that's a great way to soak the out-of-state people, lets do it!"  Delaware stopped charging "distance based" tolls for foreign transponders on DE 1.  NJ Turnpike revoked the off-peak discount for foreign transponders in 2011.  MTA in NY revoked the discounted rate for foreign transponders in 2009.  Maryland decided to implement differential pricing as a way of appeasing locals who were facing a toll increase and to encourage people to keep MD E-ZPass accounts (they scared some people off by introducing a $1.50/month fee the year before).  All of these states were able to do this as they were admitted into the IAG long before anyone thought up the idea of restricted discounts. 

But then comes Indiana.  Because Illinois had a "head start" on E-ZPass (through its I-Pass system), and many people in Indiana who lived near Chicago already had I-Pass accounts, Illinois threw its weight around when Indiana was negotiating entry into the IAG.  Illinois demanded that Indiana give discounted toll rates to its I-Pass customers (and therefore, by extension, to E-ZPass tags from any other agency), and Illinois also demanded that Indiana pay IL Tollway a per-transaction fee, since more Indiana Toll Road transactions are processed using I-Pass than Indiana E-ZPass and in effect IL Tollway was providing customer service for 2/3 of Indiana Toll Road ETC users.  Indiana wasn't admitted to the IAG yet, so they had to play nice or they wouldn't get in...unlike NJ, NY, DE, and MD who were already admitted under terms that did not prohibit "transponder discrimination".  Now that E-ZPass is wise to this, they will likely not enter into business agreements with other agencies that would practice transponder discrimination....Ohio and NC were admitted and I don't even think transponder discrimination was ever even discussed at that time.  So hopefully E-ZPass will continue to throw its weight around and demand that, as more agencies accept E-ZPass for payment, they accept it at the "electronic rate" afforded to their own tags. 

Isn't the discount supposed to reflect the reduced cost of not staffing a booth for the transaction ONLY?  I think it's funny how these agencies act like database queries cost money... they don't.  If they cost anything, it's only because the database is poorly designed.  It's not like E-ZPass is Google.

Regarding the commuter plans, they could work, but only if you change how they're implemented.  Instead of charging full rate and then refunding, if the charge the discount rate and then charge the difference if not enough trips are used, then it could work.  I think the NY agencies wait the day to bill all transactions, not just foreign ones, because it takes a couple of days for them to show up.  I actually had one from the NJ Turnpike show up before a Thruway one that happened earlier on the same day.  Plus if someone lucky enough to be from a jurisdiction with no fee moves to one that does and needs a commuter plan, they're SOL.

Quote from: vdeane on March 25, 2013, 11:36:33 AM
Isn't the discount supposed to reflect the reduced cost of not staffing a booth for the transaction ONLY?  I think it's funny how these agencies act like database queries cost money... they don't.  If they cost anything, it's only because the database is poorly designed.  It's not like E-ZPass is Google.

Regarding the commuter plans, they could work, but only if you change how they're implemented.  Instead of charging full rate and then refunding, if the charge the discount rate and then charge the difference if not enough trips are used, then it could work.  I think the NY agencies wait the day to bill all transactions, not just foreign ones, because it takes a couple of days for them to show up.  I actually had one from the NJ Turnpike show up before a Thruway one that happened earlier on the same day.  Plus if someone lucky enough to be from a jurisdiction with no fee moves to one that does and needs a commuter plan, they're SOL.

Which agency issues your tag?  Technically, if you have an MTA tag, Thruway transactions are foreign (though rather than go through the peer-to-peer process, they go through the NY Service Center, so that is how NYSC can offer Thruway commuter plans to MTA tagholders, etc.).  Generally only in Virginia are all toll transactions "domestic", and that is because only VDOT joined IAG on behalf of all toll agencies, individual agencies did not join like happened in NY and NJ. 

There is no reason why they can't give one-use discounts to every E-ZPass.  A lot of agencies do.  When the NJ Turnpike and MTA revoked their discounts from everyone, they even admitted that the reason they were doing it was to get extra money from people who were unlikely to notice (or travel enough on those facilities to care).  The reasons I outlined above for ME/NH/MA to do this were not technological reasons, they were money-making reasons.  The CEO's of these toll facilities are interested in maximizing revenue, so they only care that it is technologically possible to collect more money from those who live far away...they probably weren't intially aware and were thrilled to find out it is possible!  So while I don't condone this idea, it is not likely to disappear anytime soon.  The people that get screwed over are those who have an account and then move to a different area.  Why would they change their account over to a local account?  Well, they might be paying a lot more in tolls than they should if they don't!

I like the idea of applying for commuter discounts directly through the toll agency as opposed to through E-ZPass.  This is how Virginia operates...VDOT is a member of the E-ZPass group, and they maintain 2 toll facilities (Coleman Bridge and Powhite Parkway Extension), but process transactions on behalf of all other toll agencies.  So if you want the Chesapeake Expressway commuter plan, VDOT isn't in charge of that.  So you contact the Chesapeake Expressway, and you provide your E-ZPass tag number, and they know when they see that tag in a toll lane to charge the commuter rate to the E-ZPass account.  So no reason I can't sign up for a Maryland plan with my NY tag, technologically speaking.  I also just remembered that it is possible to do a negative interagency transaction (this happens if you get hit for a toll with the wrong vehicle class...happens if the car behind you tailgates you and it thinks you are towing a two-axle trailer, and you complain and they reverse out the charge).  So, if I sign up for a Maryland commuter plan with a NY tag, Maryland could bill me for all of the trips up-front and refund any difference back to the account if need be if not all trips are used and some are refundable, etc. 

Quote from: mtantillo on March 25, 2013, 02:48:23 PM

Quote from: vdeane on March 25, 2013, 11:36:33 AM
Isn't the discount supposed to reflect the reduced cost of not staffing a booth for the transaction ONLY?  I think it's funny how these agencies act like database queries cost money... they don't.  If they cost anything, it's only because the database is poorly designed.  It's not like E-ZPass is Google.

Regarding the commuter plans, they could work, but only if you change how they're implemented.  Instead of charging full rate and then refunding, if the charge the discount rate and then charge the difference if not enough trips are used, then it could work.  I think the NY agencies wait the day to bill all transactions, not just foreign ones, because it takes a couple of days for them to show up.  I actually had one from the NJ Turnpike show up before a Thruway one that happened earlier on the same day.  Plus if someone lucky enough to be from a jurisdiction with no fee moves to one that does and needs a commuter plan, they're SOL.

Which agency issues your tag?  Technically, if you have an MTA tag, Thruway transactions are foreign (though rather than go through the peer-to-peer process, they go through the NY Service Center, so that is how NYSC can offer Thruway commuter plans to MTA tagholders, etc.).  Generally only in Virginia are all toll transactions "domestic", and that is because only VDOT joined IAG on behalf of all toll agencies, individual agencies did not join like happened in NY and NJ.

I suppose we could say the same in Maryland, since only MdTA issues Maryland E-ZPass tags - but then, there are only two other toll crossings in the state, both operated by private owners that do not accept E-ZPass - White's Ferry between Montgomery County and Loudoun County,  Va. and the Oldtown (low water) Bridge between Allegany County and Green Spring, Hampshire County, W.Va.  Though I think that both  of those could accept E-ZPass if they wanted to.

Quote from: mtantillo on March 25, 2013, 02:48:23 PM
There is no reason why they can't give one-use discounts to every E-ZPass.  A lot of agencies do.  When the NJ Turnpike and MTA revoked their discounts from everyone, they even admitted that the reason they were doing it was to get extra money from people who were unlikely to notice (or travel enough on those facilities to care).  The reasons I outlined above for ME/NH/MA to do this were not technological reasons, they were money-making reasons.  The CEO's of these toll facilities are interested in maximizing revenue, so they only care that it is technologically possible to collect more money from those who live far away...they probably weren't intially aware and were thrilled to find out it is possible!  So while I don't condone this idea, it is not likely to disappear anytime soon.  The people that get screwed over are those who have an account and then move to a different area.  Why would they change their account over to a local account?  Well, they might be paying a lot more in tolls than they should if they don't!

There is no technical reason why states cannot grant discounts to out-of-state E-ZPass transponders.  They should, if they want  to encourage everyone to adopt  this technology. 

Quote from: mtantillo on March 25, 2013, 02:48:23 PM
I like the idea of applying for commuter discounts directly through the toll agency as opposed to through E-ZPass.  This is how Virginia operates...VDOT is a member of the E-ZPass group, and they maintain 2 toll facilities (Coleman Bridge and Powhite Parkway Extension), but process transactions on behalf of all other toll agencies.  So if you want the Chesapeake Expressway commuter plan, VDOT isn't in charge of that.  So you contact the Chesapeake Expressway, and you provide your E-ZPass tag number, and they know when they see that tag in a toll lane to charge the commuter rate to the E-ZPass account.  So no reason I can't sign up for a Maryland plan with my NY tag, technologically speaking.  I also just remembered that it is possible to do a negative interagency transaction (this happens if you get hit for a toll with the wrong vehicle class...happens if the car behind you tailgates you and it thinks you are towing a two-axle trailer, and you complain and they reverse out the charge).  So, if I sign up for a Maryland commuter plan with a NY tag, Maryland could bill me for all of the trips up-front and refund any difference back to the account if need be if not all trips are used and some are refundable, etc.

I don't drive it frequently enough to care (maybe five or ten times in a year), but the Dulles Greenway (Va. 267) in Loudoun County carries a fair amount of non-Virginia traffic (mostly Maryland and West Virginia vehicles).  Its owners frequently has banners up touting their VIP Program (http://dullesgreenway.com/overview/) yet only motorists with Virginia E-ZPass transponders can participate in it.  That is unfair and wrong.

Quote from: mtantillo on March 25, 2013, 02:48:23 PM
Which agency issues your tag?

I believe I'm Thruway though it was bought through E-ZPass on-the-go rather than applying directly.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 25, 2013, 04:30:11 PM
I suppose we could say the same in Maryland, since only MdTA issues Maryland E-ZPass tags - but then, there are only two other toll crossings in the state, both operated by private owners that do not accept E-ZPass - White's Ferry between Montgomery County and Loudoun County,  Va. and the Oldtown (low water) Bridge between Allegany County and Green Spring, Hampshire County, W.Va.  Though I think that both  of those could accept E-ZPass if they wanted to.

NY has a few, mostly at the Canadian border, though there's also the Atlantic Beach Bridge in Far Rockaway.

Quote from: vdeane on March 25, 2013, 04:37:42 PM

Quote from: mtantillo on March 25, 2013, 02:48:23 PM
Which agency issues your tag?

I believe I'm Thruway though it was bought through E-ZPass on-the-go rather than applying directly.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 25, 2013, 04:30:11 PM
I suppose we could say the same in Maryland, since only MdTA issues Maryland E-ZPass tags - but then, there are only two other toll crossings in the state, both operated by private owners that do not accept E-ZPass - White's Ferry between Montgomery County and Loudoun County,  Va. and the Oldtown (low water) Bridge between Allegany County and Green Spring, Hampshire County, W.Va.  Though I think that both  of those could accept E-ZPass if they wanted to.

NY has a few, mostly at the Canadian border, though there's also the Atlantic Beach Bridge in Far Rockaway.

Correct. Prescott-Ogdensburg and the Seaway International ("Three Nations") Bridge do not take any ETC.  Thousand Islands Bridge Authority is "looking into it" I think.  The Atlantic Beach Bridge uses barcode decals (with discriminatory pricing for Nassau County vs. non-Nassau County residents), for unlimited use for a year.  They are pretty expensive though (well over $100) and they all expire on the same date in January, so if you want to purchase one in October, you're either going to overpay or be out of luck. 

Now you just made me think of something.  Here's the proof that you can "bring your own tag" (so you could, say, take advantage of a commuter discount in one state with a tag from another state):

The Niagara Falls Bridge Commission does have ETC, but they went with a sticker tag instead of E-ZPass, though their toll collection equipment can read E-ZPass tags (it just doesn't link to the databases).  It is very interesting that their "ExpressPass" sticker tags don't actually stick onto the windshield. They use the exact same sticker tag technology as GA/NC/CO/UT/WA, but they issue you a hang tag where you can place your ExpressPass on the rearview mirror as you go through the toll plaza.  So much for the toll agencies' arguments that "all tags must be mounted or they won't work".  Interestingly, ehhanced drivers licenses up to DHS standards and US CBP Trusted Traveler cards (NEXUS/FAST/SENTRI/Global Entry) use the exact same technology as ExpressPass, meaning if you have one of those cards, you are broadcasting your "PassID" number to the world, but Niagara Falls Bridge Commission will actually let you use the card as a toll pass! On the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge (NEXUS Only), you tap the card on a card reader to enter the bridge (a toll is deducted leaving the USA, but leaving Canada it only controls access to the bridge span).  On the Rainbow and Lewiston-Queenston Bridge, it can be used in an ExpressPass Only lane, either in a hangtag or just held up to the windshield!

So there.  Niagara River Bridge Commission lets you use a toll pass received from another source (US CBP) to link to their account.  So does Detroit-Windsor Tunnel.  Obviously the card is just used to access a database that each bridge commission uses, so despite using the same NEXUS card, you would need separate "ExpressPass" (NFBC) and "NEXPRESS" (DWT) accounts. 

I wonder why they don't join E-ZPass; there really isn't much reason not to, especially with the new affiliate membership.

Quote from: vdeane on March 26, 2013, 11:51:28 AM
I wonder why they don't join E-ZPass; there really isn't much reason not to, especially with the new affiliate membership.

ExpressPass pre-dated the affiliate membership by several years. 

I think they should join. 

Quote from: mtantillo on March 26, 2013, 08:43:54 PM

Quote from: vdeane on March 26, 2013, 11:51:28 AM
I wonder why they don't join E-ZPass; there really isn't much reason not to, especially with the new affiliate membership.

ExpressPass pre-dated the affiliate membership by several years. 

I think they should join. 

This (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6479) (from TOLLROADSnews) could be a great leap forward when it comes to toll road system interoperability.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2013, 08:50:57 PM

Quote from: mtantillo on March 26, 2013, 08:43:54 PM

Quote from: vdeane on March 26, 2013, 11:51:28 AM
I wonder why they don't join E-ZPass; there really isn't much reason not to, especially with the new affiliate membership.

ExpressPass pre-dated the affiliate membership by several years. 

I think they should join. 

This (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6479) (from TOLLROADSnews) could be a great leap forward when it comes to toll road system interoperability.

How will this system tell apart multiple cell phones in the same vehicle that are configured to pay tolls, in order to not charge extra?

Quote from: Zmapper on March 26, 2013, 09:25:50 PM
How will this system tell apart multiple cell phones in the same vehicle that are configured to pay tolls, in order to not charge extra?

I would imagine the requests would come in like this:

16:23:17 555-1234, pay for toll crossing 12345, license plate 1ABC234.
16:23:18 555-4321, pay for toll crossing 12345, license plate 1ABC234.

here, the computer is designed to note that 1ABC234 is not going to cross the same toll barrier legitimately twice in the span of one second, and it interprets those two requests as one transaction.

you can probably set a minimum time between valid transaction requests as high as a minute or two and not be dropping legitimate consecutive requests.  how far apart are toll barriers, anyway?

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 26, 2013, 09:45:25 PM
how far apart are toll barriers, anyway?

Right now, on long "closed" (ticket) toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike or the Ohio Turnpike, it can be hundreds of miles between an entrance barrier and an exit barrier (consider driving the entire ticket system of the Penn Pike, from Warrendale (I-79) near Pittsburgh to the mainline barrier at Bristol (U.S. 13) just short of the Delaware River and the New Jersey border).  According to Google, that's between 325 and 330 miles.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike is planning to convert to all electronic tolling (cashless), which will mean a "barrier" between each interchange.

Md. 200 (ICC) has "barriers" (a gantry) between every interchange, and some of them are not more than a mile or two apart (some others are a little further apart, bit the road is not that long, only between 15 and 20 miles.

There are two gantries on the I-495 Express Lanes in Virginia located less than a mile apart (I'd guess 1000 feet at most)–one just to the south of the US-29 overpass and another immediately to the north of it. That sort of thing is a special situation, I suppose, but it's the closest two tolling points of which I'm aware (and of course I know that sort of proximity wouldn't work if it weren't all-ETC).

Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2013, 10:11:08 PM
Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

But cash payment is eventually  going to go away.  Highway 407 in Ontario was the "proof of concept" of a cashless toll road.  Just wish the owners of the 407 concession would join the E-ZPass Group.

Am I the only one who thinks this is one gigantic festering cluster?  The states, districts, and powers to be ought to design a central system that is smart enough to recognize anything that is EZPass or already interchangeable with it.  All other variations of toll payment passes need to funnel it all through EZPass.  Right now, while major city roadways are being converted into toll roads and toll booths are being phased out is where the confusion needs to just stop before it is so out of control with violations being everywhere.  People assuming that because they have an EZPass from Florida it should work in EZPass toll areas in New Jersey.  Since EZPass is the "word" showing up everywhere, this ought to be the one that manages all the tolls.  I cannot imagine decorating my windshield with different EZPass stickers and transponders and hanging tags from every state and toll area.  One is enough.

Seriously, why can't some program be developed with some simple logic that says, "hey, a car just went under this EZPass detector in Alexandria, Virginia.  The cost $3.00 and the car has an EZPass sticker.  I see that it's Susan Smith.  (What difference does it make where she's from.  A toll is a toll and everybody should pay the same rate if they live in the United States.)  Her bank account is with Blah National Bank and she has $45 in her EZPass account.  Transfer $3.00 from her bank account to the EZPass Toll Agency in Alexandria, Virginia.  What is so hard about that?

Quote from: norahs on March 26, 2013, 10:50:51 PM
Am I the only one who thinks this is one gigantic festering cluster?  The states, districts, and powers to be ought to design a central system that is smart enough to recognize anything that is EZPass or already interchangeable with it.  All other variations of toll payment passes need to funnel it all through EZPass.  Right now, while major city roadways are being converted into toll roads and toll booths are being phased out is where the confusion needs to just stop before it is so out of control with violations being everywhere.  People assuming that because they have an EZPass from Florida it should work in EZPass toll areas in New Jersey.  Since EZPass is the "word" showing up everywhere, this ought to be the one that manages all the tolls.  I cannot imagine decorating my windshield with different EZPass stickers and transponders and hanging tags from every state and toll area.  One is enough.

Seriously, why can't some program be developed with some simple logic that says, "hey, a car just went under this EZPass detector in Alexandria, Virginia.  The cost $3.00 and the car has an EZPass sticker.  I see that it's Susan Smith.  (What difference does it make where she's from.  A toll is a toll and everybody should pay the same rate if they live in the United States.)  Her bank account is with Blah National Bank and she has $45 in her EZPass account.  Transfer $3.00 from her bank account to the EZPass Toll Agency in Alexandria, Virginia.  What is so hard about that?

What you describe  above is exactly what the E-ZPass Group is about. 

But some other states and toll authorities (including jurisdictions adjacent to the E-ZPass "footprint," like Highway 407 in Ontario and the new toll facilities in Quebec), as well as Florida, Texas and Georgia, have seen fit to not join E-ZPass.  Being an E-ZPass member means a toll agency has to have equipment to handle the E-ZPass transponder, which is more expensive than the "sticker" tags used in many places outside of E-ZPass land.

The only place (now) that accepts E-ZPass and some other form of transponder (a sticker tag) is the Tri-Ex in North Carolina.

Quote from: norahs on March 26, 2013, 10:50:51 PMA toll is a toll and everybody should pay the same rate if they live in the United States.

are we tolling Canadians at a different rate now?  seems like the sort of thing Florida would do...

Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2013, 10:11:08 PM
Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

Why?  Because a few people that don't know the exact computer specifications of electronic toll equipment that hasn't been fully programmed yet offered up a few opinions?

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 27, 2013, 09:32:37 AM

Quote from: norahs on March 26, 2013, 10:50:51 PMA toll is a toll and everybody should pay the same rate if they live in the United States.

are we tolling Canadians at a different rate now?  seems like the sort of thing Florida would do...

Not Canadians per se, but many (most?) states seem to have cashless discounts that are only offered to vehicles with in-state transponder units.

And CP misses the point.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 27, 2013, 10:15:38 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2013, 10:11:08 PM
Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

Why?  Because a few people that don't know the exact computer specifications of electronic toll equipment that hasn't been fully programmed yet offered up a few opinions?

The standard used by E-ZPass transponders and equipment to read them is in the  public domain (or soon will be). Some of the other transponder standards are strictly proprietary, like the Mark IV (E-ZPass) standard used to be.

>But some other states and toll authorities (including jurisdictions adjacent to the E-ZPass "footprint," like Highway 407 in Ontario and the new toll facilities in Quebec), as well as Florida, Texas and Georgia, have seen fit to not join E-ZPass.

And that's fine if they don't.  Herein lies my frustration.  They should then not be able to display anything with the word EZPass on it since that will cause major confusion to people traveling between EZPass regions.  I mean that's like telling me my US twenty dollar bill works in Florida but it won't work in New Jersey, because New Jersey isn't fully compliant.  I should have known to check first to see that it's acceptable in all the states.  Anything that displays the word EZPass should be fully interchangeable with any other state, district, or jurisdiction that displays the name EZPass, period.  States shouldn't be able to just halfway opt into the EZPass system. 

In my situation I purchased a SunPass sticker in Florida and then suddenly it became fully interchangeable with EZPass Florida.  So it should also be fully interchangeable with any other EZPass toll area in the United States, period.  What's the deal, all it's got to do is grab the money.  So prior to seeing this convo, I might have happily driven driven right through the EZPass tollgate on the Bay Bridge and would have wondered why didn't it work, and why am I being pulled over, or worse yet why am I getting a notice in the mail 3 months later.  Well officer, it says EZPass and my sticker works fine in EZPass lanes in Florida and there is money in my account, what's wrong? 

Also Florida should totally ditch the name Sunpass because it is now perfectly obsolete.  In my mind Sunpass and EZPass are exactly the same.  Every person with a Sunpass account should be notified that the name has been changed to EZPass - notified by the newspaper, news, mail, email, whatever.  It shouldn't be that hard, afterall, how many times have we gone through a bank merging with another bank or changing its name?  I shouldn't have to know anything about the politics involved and what state decides to display the logo and not pay into a national system, and go into hours of research to see if my now EZPass sticker from Florida works in New Jersey.  That's just horrible.

Thanks for reading this far, it's crazy with how complicated the simplest things have become in this country.  The other thing I'm concerned with is this:  So let's say I travelled in New Jersey last month and I paid the toll because I knew my EZPass didn't work even though EZPass is displayed above the toll lane.  Now a month later I am traveling through there again but didn't know that just last week New Jersey became fully interchangeable with EZPass in southern states.  Let's say I didn't know when that happened, and paid that toll to a human toll operator or even dropped it in the basket.  But at the same time the sensor above also now worked and took the toll from my bank account automatically.  Now I've paid TWICE.  How do I know this isn't going to happen?  Please help me to understand.

I also don't understand "gantrys".  What difference does it make how many miles are between toll exchanges?  They are in the same state.  You either pay when you go through the next one, or you pay if you exit before.

norahs: E-Pass and EZ-Pass are different systems.

I don't know about other jurisdictions, but the Thruway discounts Canadian currency 30%.  The Thousand Islands Bridge used to have different rates for Canadian and US currency until the 2008 (I think) toll hike.

Quote from: norahs on March 27, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
In my situation I purchased a SunPass sticker in Florida and then suddenly it became fully interchangeable with EZPass Florida.  So it should also be fully interchangeable with any other EZPass toll area in the United States, period.  What's the deal, all it's got to do is grab the money.  So prior to seeing this convo, I might have happily driven driven right through the EZPass tollgate on the Bay Bridge and would have wondered why didn't it work, and why am I being pulled over, or worse yet why am I getting a notice in the mail 3 months later.  Well officer, it says EZPass and my sticker works fine in EZPass lanes in Florida and there is money in my account, what's wrong? 

You're confused.  There is no such thing as E-ZPass in Florida.  You're thinking of Orlando's E-Pass.  E-ZPass is only within the E-ZPass IAG and doesn't appear elsewhere.

Quote from: norahs on March 27, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
I also don't understand "gantrys".  What difference does it make how many miles are between toll exchanges?  They are in the same state.  You either pay when you go through the next one, or you pay if you exit before.

On "ticket" toll roads like the N.J. Turnpike (most of) the N.Y. State Thruway and (most of) the Pennsylvania Turnpike, if you do not have an E-ZPass, you get a toll ticket when you enter the highway.  When you exit, you  surrender that ticket to the toll collector, who computes how much you owe based on how far you have driven. 

All three of those toll roads also accept E-ZPass.  If you have E-ZPass, you don't get a ticket, you just drive through an  E-ZPass lane (passing under a gantry, sometimes just part of an  older toll both), where the location of your entry is recorded in the transponder.  When you leave the toll road, you drive  under another gantry (which may also be part of a toll booth), the distance you drove is computed and then the toll due, and your E-ZPass account is charged that amount. 

On new toll cashless toll roads like the Triangle Expressway (TriEx) in Wake County, N.C.; the I-495 express lanes in Fairfax County Virginia; and the InterCounty Connector (Md. 200) in Montgomery and Prince George's Counties, there are no toll booths at all, since they do not accept cash for payment of the toll.

Instead, there are E-ZPass readers (and video cameras, as backup in case you don't have a transponder, or if your transponder is malfunctioning) mounted above each lane on a structure called a gantry between the interchanges.   The operators of these facilities know how far it is between each interchange, and as you pass under each one, they know how far you have driven.  You are charged for how far you drive on these roads, just like you would be on the New Jersey Turnpike. 

Only major difference is that there are different charges by time-of-day (usually posted on signs near the entrance to the toll road), so rush hour costs the most, while the per-mile charge in the overnight hours is usually pretty low.

Returning to your remark above, you can think of a gantry on an all-electronic toll road as being the same as a toll plaza on a road that accepts cash.

Quote from: vdeane on March 27, 2013, 12:12:16 PM
I don't know about other jurisdictions, but the Thruway discounts Canadian currency 30%.  The Thousand Islands Bridge used to have different rates for Canadian and US currency until the 2008 (I think) toll hike.

Quote from: norahs on March 27, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
In my situation I purchased a SunPass sticker in Florida and then suddenly it became fully interchangeable with EZPass Florida.  So it should also be fully interchangeable with any other EZPass toll area in the United States, period.  What's the deal, all it's got to do is grab the money.  So prior to seeing this convo, I might have happily driven driven right through the EZPass tollgate on the Bay Bridge and would have wondered why didn't it work, and why am I being pulled over, or worse yet why am I getting a notice in the mail 3 months later.  Well officer, it says EZPass and my sticker works fine in EZPass lanes in Florida and there is money in my account, what's wrong? 

You're confused.  There is no such thing as E-ZPass in Florida.  You're thinking of Orlando's E-Pass.  E-ZPass is only within the E-ZPass IAG and doesn't appear elsewhere.

Exactly. There are talks of interoperability, but that is still a long way off.  It will likely not be full interoperability (i.e. SunPass = E-ZPass), but more partial (E-ZPass accepted at certain SunPass facilites where you see the E-ZPass logo). 

I think that part of the reason for separate brand names that are fully compatible (I-Pass/E-ZPass and SunPass/E-Pass) are because original agreements signed with bondholders specified a certain brand name that was to be used. 

In the case of E-Pass and SunPass, they are interoperable but use different technologies (SunPass relies a lot more on the writeback capability of the transponders than E-Pass), and have different histories (E-Pass pre-dated SunPass by about 8 years, and initially used bumper mounted tags and toll receivers in the pavement). 

And E-Pass was free. None of this pay for something that saves them money shit.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 27, 2013, 01:41:44 PM

Quote from: norahs on March 27, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
I also don't understand "gantrys".  What difference does it make how many miles are between toll exchanges?  They are in the same state.  You either pay when you go through the next one, or you pay if you exit before.

....

Returning to your remark above, you can think of a gantry on an all-electronic toll road as being the same as a toll plaza on a road that accepts cash.

Here's an example of a toll gantry on the Beltway in Virginia (picture taken last November the Monday before Thanksgiving).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FHOT10.jpg&hash=321d244ef6b4488cfff1cb2e8a6b83dc79351b98)

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 27, 2013, 10:15:38 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2013, 10:11:08 PM
Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

Why?  Because a few people that don't know the exact computer specifications of electronic toll equipment that hasn't been fully programmed yet offered up a few opinions?

Because I'd rather not have to do an hour's worth of homework to find out which toll roads I can use a certain transponder on and which ones I can't, which ones I'll get some sort of discount on and which ones I can't, which systems allow transponders to be shared between vehicles and which ones don't, et cætera, et cætera.  Just let me pay cash and I'll be happy.

You are right, vdeane - I AM confused and have EZPass on the brain since I am in EZPass territory today!!  Allow me to buy you dinner for pointing out that there is no EZPass in Florida (and I live there)!  EPass vs EZPass, good googa mooga, thanks for the clarification.. Last time I went thru Miami was last June on the way to the Keys.  So to travel up north I need to purchase another sticker (or transponder) to slap on the inside of my windshield - for EZPass.  I bet if I'm confused so are others, so that's yet another reason to get this all into a national system.

Yes, there used to be two options for paying tolls over the Thousand Islands Bridge, US $1.50 and Canada $2.00.  Omg, so now what do they have?  It's been a long time since the US dollar was worth 30% more than the Canadian dollar.  If anything, it's the other way around now.

Thanks for explaining gantrys, cpzilliacus and 1995hoo.. I forgot there are different charges based upon the time of day.  I live in Orlando but don't think about different prices at different times of the day - I know there are sufficient funds in my account to take care of it whatever it is whatever time it is.  I think this might be what you guys were talking about earlier.. so if rush hour is at 3pm - 7pm for example, what happens if I enter the toll lane in Alexandria at 2.45pm and exit around Lorton at 3.05pm?  I'm sure I will get charged for the higher rate regardless of the number of miles I traveled between 2.45pm and 3pm or when I got clocked in Alexandria, right?

kphoger, I agree, I'd be happier paying cash to a nice person in a tollbooth until they get this all straightened out, tested, and working.

Yawn indeed, lol...

Quote from: norahs on March 27, 2013, 05:36:38 PM
what happens if I enter the toll lane in Alexandria at 2.45pm and exit around Lorton at 3.05pm?

http://www.95expresslanes.com/using
"You will see pricing signage as you approach each new segment. These signs will provide you with information on current toll pricing so you can decide if you want to use the Express Lanes. If you enter the Express lanes, you will lock in your toll rate for that segment."

Quote from: norahs on March 27, 2013, 05:36:38 PM
You are right, vdeane - I AM confused and have EZPass on the brain since I am in EZPass territory today!!  Allow me to buy you dinner for pointing out that there is no EZPass in Florida (and I live there)!  EPass vs EZPass, good googa mooga, thanks for the clarification.. Last time I went thru Miami was last June on the way to the Keys.  So to travel up north I need to purchase another sticker (or transponder) to slap on the inside of my windshield - for EZPass.  I bet if I'm confused so are others, so that's yet another reason to get this all into a national system.

Yes, there used to be two options for paying tolls over the Thousand Islands Bridge, US $1.50 and Canada $2.00.  Omg, so now what do they have?  It's been a long time since the US dollar was worth 30% more than the Canadian dollar.  If anything, it's the other way around now.

Thanks for explaining gantrys, cpzilliacus and 1995hoo.. I forgot there are different charges based upon the time of day.  I live in Orlando but don't think about different prices at different times of the day - I know there are sufficient funds in my account to take care of it whatever it is whatever time it is.  I think this might be what you guys were talking about earlier.. so if rush hour is at 3pm - 7pm for example, what happens if I enter the toll lane in Alexandria at 2.45pm and exit around Lorton at 3.05pm?  I'm sure I will get charged for the higher rate regardless of the number of miles I traveled between 2.45pm and 3pm or when I got clocked in Alexandria, right?

kphoger, I agree, I'd be happier paying cash to a nice person in a tollbooth until they get this all straightened out, tested, and working.

Yawn indeed, lol...

E-ZPasses are box transponders, not stickers.  Think more like "SunPass Portable" as opposed to "SunPass Mini".  Each state has their own terms and conditions, with some charging for the transponders vs. others that give them for free, and some charging monthly fees vs. others that do not.  If you want to sign up for an E-ZPass before your trip, consider Massachusetts E-ZPass...one of the only ones left with no monthly fee and a free transponder. 

Thousand Island Bridge toll is $2.50 in either currency I believe. 

The price for the I-495 and I-95 Express Lanes is dynamic, meaning it doesn't change on a set schedule.  It changes as more traffic gets into the lanes.  It could be a quiet rush hour and the price will never jump above the minimum, or it could be a busy Sunday night and the price could be high.  You pay based on what the sign says when you enter the I-495 Express Lanes (and lock in that rate for the entire trip), whereas the I-95 Express Lanes will work differently and you pay for each segment based on what the sign says when you get to that segment (either on the regular lanes or on the previous Express Lane segment).  You can then decide to continue in/enter the Express Lanes, or stay out/exit.

But in general, most time-based systems that charge based on time spent (parking) or distance travelled (transit or tolls) charge based on the time of entry into the system.  Washington DC Metrorail is a good example of this. 

And to travel on a toll road, no need to understand the entirety of the E-ZPass or SunPass system.  I do because I find it interesting and have spent many hours and days researching this, but for the average user, just google the specific toll facility you will travel on or the toll agency for the area you will be traveling to.  Chances are there won't be too many.  This way you can know in advance what form of payment is accepted, what the toll rates are, etc. 

Quote from: mtantillo on March 27, 2013, 06:57:50 PM
And to travel on a toll road, no need to understand the entirety of the E-ZPass or SunPass system.  I do because I find it interesting and have spent many hours and days researching this, but for the average user, just google the specific toll facility you will travel on or the toll agency for the area you will be traveling to.  Chances are there won't be too many.  This way you can know in advance what form of payment is accepted, what the toll rates are, etc.

To expand on this, every toll facility I know of lists the cash and E-ZPass rates plainly on their website, with the long-distance toll roads even posting a calculator tool where you put in your entrance and exit points and what type of vehicle you're driving so you can know exactly what to pay ahead of time. Even for a multi-state, all-day drive you shouldn't have to spend more than 10 minutes looking up toll rates ahead of time.

So you can set up an E-ZPass account from any state?  I can't believe other E-ZPass states also charge monthly fees.. that's really a cheap shot.  Wondering why anyone would set up an account in any state other than Massachusetts then? 

I'm going to have to agree with kphoger, about liking a cash payment option.  That way you can pay and get it over with - no research, no bills to arrive in the mail, no paying a monthly fee, nothing to stick on the windshield.  It's just sounding better and better.  I'd be happy to just hand the money to a toll operator (a job for someone) or toss it in a basket, or taking a ticket and paying when you want to exit.  I'm liking the old-fashioned system better and better, or at least until they get a smoothly functioning national system.  It's not that I'm a luddite, because I keep up with technology, but they shouldn't turn out a system halfway.

Of course in addition to a cash option, until they do roll out a fully functional and interchangeable national system, they could also have the cashless sticker-/transponder- option for people who routinely travel in that state.  I remember when the toll lanes first came to the Beltway, it was almost a disaster with everyone going every which way and all the accidents.  Imagine everyone assuming that their E-ZPass is going to work in every state as it is today.  What do you think?

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike is planning to convert to all electronic tolling (cashless), which will mean a "barrier" between each interchange.

Is this really the case? Meaning that the PA Turnpike would go all mainline barriers instead of interchange tolling. If so, I haven't seen it reported anywhere. It seems to me that it would be just as easy to keep tolling at the interchanges and de-man the booths.

Even the most ardent states' rights supporters will generally agree that the federal government has a legitimate role in facilitating free and open commerce between states, so I don't think that nationwide standards on tolling practices is unreasonable. In my opinion, charging premiums to out-of-state motorists is predatory and anti-business.

As fuel tax revenues decline and are increasingly replaced by tolls, the fair and efficient collection of tolls across all areas is going to become an even more important issue.

Quote from: norahs on March 28, 2013, 08:29:47 PM
So you can set up an E-ZPass account from any state?  I can't believe other E-ZPass states also charge monthly fees.. that's really a cheap shot.  Wondering why anyone would set up an account in any state other than Massachusetts then? 

Because most people don't like to research the fine print, and will see advertising from E-ZPass in that particular state, so they will get that state's transponder. 

Also, when you sign up online, if you try to sign up on the "wrong" state's website, the very first question will ask you where you live, and will bounce you to the E-ZPass site for your own state (or the nearest state if that state doesn't have it....for example, California would likely bounce to Illinois).  So you have to trick it.  Lie on the first page and say you live in whatever state you are trying to sign up for, just to get past the "gatekeeper function". Then when you fill out the application, you can fill in your actual address. 

The states want you to sign up for that state's E-ZPass if you will use their toll roads most, because it is simpler to process in-state transactions than out of state ones.  And no agency wants the "burden" of maintaining accounts that are primarily used on other facilities and never on their own home facility.  So they encourage this with discounts.  Not saying I agree, just explaining the rationale from the toll agency's perspective. 

California also has different agencies that issue FasTrak tags.  SR 125, SANDAG (I-15 Express Lanes), LA Metro (I-10/I-110 Express Lanes), "The Toll Roads" (Orange County), and the Bay Area agencies.  They have a way of keeping as many people as possible using "local" tags...minimum usage rules.  I think all agencies except for "The Toll Roads" have this...you have a minimum use of $4.50 per month.  You can spend that money on tolls on your home agency's facility, but any tolls outside your home agency's facility won't count towards that minimum.  At the end of the month, they will charge you the difference.  So if you have $5 in tolls on your home agency's facility, you pay $5.  If you have $5 in tolls on other facilites, you'll pay $9.50 ($5 tolls + $4.50 minimum usage).  If you have $2 in tolls on your home facility and $5 on other facilities, you'll pay $7.50 ($4.50 - $2 + $5)...etc.  The Toll Roads charge a $2.00/month fee with no minimum usage (I think...didn't read the fine print too closely). 

Quote from: briantroutman on March 28, 2013, 10:00:38 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike is planning to convert to all electronic tolling (cashless), which will mean a "barrier" between each interchange.

Is this really the case? Meaning that the PA Turnpike would go all mainline barriers instead of interchange tolling. If so, I haven't seen it reported anywhere. It seems to me that it would be just as easy to keep tolling at the interchanges and de-man the booths.

Even the most ardent states' rights supporters will generally agree that the federal government has a legitimate role in facilitating free and open commerce between states, so I don't think that nationwide standards on tolling practices is unreasonable. In my opinion, charging premiums to out-of-state motorists is predatory and anti-business.

As fuel tax revenues decline and are increasingly replaced by tolls, the fair and efficient collection of tolls across all areas is going to become an even more important issue.

I think the PA Turnpike thing isn't a big deal, because as a user with all electronic tolls, it doesn't matter to you where the toll tag is read, just drive like it is a normal road.  The "mainline gantries" are better than "entry/exit" gantries, because you don't have to match an entry with an exit to process the transaction.  Just process each segment at a fixed amount.  The tolls can be "bundled" before they are posted to your account, but they don't have to be.  If your tag mis-reads, they can post partial trips...whereas if it misreads on entry or exit they don't know where you got on or got off and have to "guess". 

Nationwide interoperability hasn't happened yet because the best example of interoperability uses antiquated technology (E-ZPass).  Other agencies use better technology (stickers that cost about $1 each, no batteries to replace) don't want to change to E-ZPass, and E-ZPass doesn't want to abandon their system using other hardware.  But that will change soon, as there is a mandate from Congress to have "National Interoperability" by 2016.  Most likely this will be license-plate based, not transponder based, because the different transponder types are just too costly to replace in a short time frame.  Better then nothing, but you better believe that toll agencies will STRONGLY encourage (through use of discounts, fees, or whatever) local people to use the local transponder and to not use license-plate based image tolls for the majority of their trips, because those image transactions are much more costly to process than transponder-based transactions. 

I agree that charging more to out-of-state motorists is predatory.  But unfortunately, for the time being, the courts have upheld it.  The court's interpretation is that "out of state motorists" are not charged higher fees, but "motorists with out of state transponders" are charged higher fees.  In otherwords, anyone from out of state could get an in-state transponder and pay the lower fee if they would like.  Drivers from that state that, for whatever reason, use a transponder from a different state will pay the higher fee.  There was a Federal court case about this in Massachusetts where a driver with a NY tag was complaining he was paying higher tolls in Boston as a result of his New York transponder.  The judge said he was free to get a Massachusetts transponder if he wanted to take advantage of the discount program. 

I disagree with the spirit of this, because if we wanted to get all the discounts for paying electronically, we'd have to carry multiple transponders, which defeats the purpose of interoperability.  But for now, the Feds say "it is okay". 

I personally have two E-ZPass transponders....because MTA in NY gives a HUGE discount to E-ZPass NY customers. I don't live there, but my parents do, and when I drive up that way, I'm often taking a bunch of trips in a short timespan.  But the toll facilities I drive most are in Maryland, and obviously I want their discount.  And I want a Flex transponder for use on I-495...so I have a Maryland account too. 

I typically drive around DC area with my Maryland transponder up (so I can flip over to HOV mode in the Express Lanes easily).  Obviously will also use it on long trips heading north as far as Delaware to take advantage of Maryland discounts.  But on any trip to or beyond Delaware, I'll swap over to my NY tag, because I'm typically racking up a lot of tolls and prefer NY's "pay as you go" plan as opposed to having to maintain a large account balance in Maryland (the goal is no more than one $25 replenishment/month on the Maryland account).  The only thing that trumps these rules is that all tolls for business purposes I'll pay with my NY transponder because I can print out a receipt for an individual transaction on my NY account (Maryland, despite having a very similar user interface, does not have this functionality).  Although Massachusetts has a sweet deal, I don't go there enough to justify maintaining another account, so I just suck up the extra 25 cents per plaza the few times I'm up there. 

Quote from: briantroutman on March 28, 2013, 10:00:38 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike is planning to convert to all electronic tolling (cashless), which will mean a "barrier" between each interchange.

Is this really the case? Meaning that the PA Turnpike would go all mainline barriers instead of interchange tolling. If so, I haven't seen it reported anywhere. It seems to me that it would be just as easy to keep tolling at the interchanges and de-man the booths.

Pennsylvania Turnpike all electronic tolling: http://www.paturnpike.com/aet_public/aet.asp (http://www.paturnpike.com/aet_public/aet.asp)

See TOLLROADSnews: Penn Pike chooses HNTB to manage move to AET/cashless tolling (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6076)

Converting to gantries between the interchanges will allow the  Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission to have "regular" interchanges instead of the "double trumpet" interchanges (or breezewoods) that is predominantly used on the Turnpike system today.

Quote from: briantroutman on March 28, 2013, 10:00:38 PM
Even the most ardent states' rights supporters will generally agree that the federal government has a legitimate role in facilitating free and open commerce between states, so I don't think that nationwide standards on tolling practices is unreasonable. In my opinion, charging premiums to out-of-state motorists is predatory and anti-business.

As fuel tax revenues decline and are increasingly replaced by tolls, the fair and efficient collection of tolls across all areas is going to become an even more important issue.

Agreed.

But it's highly unlikely the Turnpike will convert existing interchanges over within the next 50 years.  As for new ones, can't you put gantries over the ramps?

I don't like the idea of having a zillion barrier tolls showing up on my statement when I could have a single entry/exit one.  Plus, since I have a Thruway tag, anything that isn't exit/entry looks funny on the statement.

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2013, 11:37:28 AM
But it's highly unlikely the Turnpike will convert existing interchanges over within the next 50 years.  As for new ones, can't you put gantries over the ramps?

I don't like the idea of having a zillion barrier tolls showing up on my statement when I could have a single entry/exit one.  Plus, since I have a Thruway tag, anything that isn't exit/entry looks funny on the statement.

Depending on how the gantries work, you may not have a bunch of virtual barrier tolls. The 495 Express Lanes in Virginia and the ICC in Maryland work like "ticket system" toll roads even though the gantries are over the travel lanes and you pass under several of them as you drive (example: if I go from home to the mall at Tysons, I pass under either six or seven gantries on the Beltway). Every gantry reads your transponder, but only the first and last gantries you pass show up on your statement and only a single charge posts.

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2013, 11:37:28 AM
But it's highly unlikely the Turnpike will convert existing interchanges over within the next 50 years.  As for new ones, can't you put gantries over the ramps?

I don't know that the PTC would do anything drastic with existing interchanges (though, from earlier in PA Turnpike thread, the Monroeville interchange is supposed to get "vastly reconfigured".)  AET would certainly be helpful by making it easier to add new "conventional" interchanges, and if they were to put a brand new diamond interchange in somewhere, they might not want to have 4 separate overhead EZ-Pass structures for each ramp.

QuoteI don't like the idea of having a zillion barrier tolls showing up on my statement when I could have a single entry/exit one.

While that's understandable, IMO the only thing I personally care about is that it still ends up being a "per mile" toll, which either method will achieve.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2013, 12:39:43 PM

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2013, 11:37:28 AM
But it's highly unlikely the Turnpike will convert existing interchanges over within the next 50 years.  As for new ones, can't you put gantries over the ramps?

I don't like the idea of having a zillion barrier tolls showing up on my statement when I could have a single entry/exit one.  Plus, since I have a Thruway tag, anything that isn't exit/entry looks funny on the statement.

Depending on how the gantries work, you may not have a bunch of virtual barrier tolls. The 495 Express Lanes in Virginia and the ICC in Maryland work like "ticket system" toll roads even though the gantries are over the travel lanes and you pass under several of them as you drive (example: if I go from home to the mall at Tysons, I pass under either six or seven gantries on the Beltway). Every gantry reads your transponder, but only the first and last gantries you pass show up on your statement and only a single charge posts.

Yeah.  The MdTA E-ZPass statements show an "entry plaza" and an "exit plaza" for Md. 200 and the 495 Express Lanes, even though there are only gantries along the way.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 29, 2013, 03:05:32 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2013, 12:39:43 PM

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2013, 11:37:28 AM
But it's highly unlikely the Turnpike will convert existing interchanges over within the next 50 years.  As for new ones, can't you put gantries over the ramps?

I don't like the idea of having a zillion barrier tolls showing up on my statement when I could have a single entry/exit one.  Plus, since I have a Thruway tag, anything that isn't exit/entry looks funny on the statement.

Depending on how the gantries work, you may not have a bunch of virtual barrier tolls. The 495 Express Lanes in Virginia and the ICC in Maryland work like "ticket system" toll roads even though the gantries are over the travel lanes and you pass under several of them as you drive (example: if I go from home to the mall at Tysons, I pass under either six or seven gantries on the Beltway). Every gantry reads your transponder, but only the first and last gantries you pass show up on your statement and only a single charge posts.

Yeah.  The MdTA E-ZPass statements show an "entry plaza" and an "exit plaza" for Md. 200 and the 495 Express Lanes, even though there are only gantries along the way.

My electronic statement from Virginia is the same.

Quote from: Mr_Northside on March 29, 2013, 02:02:54 PM

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2013, 11:37:28 AM
But it's highly unlikely the Turnpike will convert existing interchanges over within the next 50 years.  As for new ones, can't you put gantries over the ramps?

I don't know that the PTC would do anything drastic with existing interchanges (though, from earlier in PA Turnpike thread, the Monroeville interchange is supposed to get "vastly reconfigured".)  AET would certainly be helpful by making it easier to add new "conventional" interchanges, and if they were to put a brand new diamond interchange in somewhere, they might not want to have 4 separate overhead EZ-Pass structures for each ramp.

The Monroeville interchange is one of those kiddie-sized pieces of civil engineering that make me weep ("...only in Pennsylvania") anytime I go back home. The fact that there's a one-lane 25 MPH ramp carrying what ostensibly would be the mainline of one of the heaviest cross-state motor routes (Philadelphia to Pittsburgh) is particularly laughable (or sad, depending on how you look at it). I know; it's the price we pay for having been a pioneer in the '40s.

There may be a need for more interchanges in the Philadelphia area. Actually, strategically placing slip ramps–such as on key arterials like PA 63 and 73–might alleviate traffic backups at the existing interchanges and on the rest of the surface street network. This might also make the turnpike a more attractive option for local traffic and boost overall volume, especially at non-peak times.

Maybe eventually, the "ticket" system would end around Downingtown, and overhead gantries would be used from that point eastward to New Jersey. The Northeast Extension could probably be open tolling from Lehigh Valley southward with all of the suburban development in Bucks and Montgomery counties.

But the vast majority of the existing Pennsylvania Turnpike, basically from Irwin to Downingtown and Allentown to Scranton, I really don't see much opportunity to add new interchanges. And if all the trumpets remain untouched, it might be just as cost effective to maintain all-electronic closed tolling for the rural part of the system. But of course I'd have to see the actual cost figures.

Quote from: briantroutman on March 28, 2013, 10:00:38 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike is planning to convert to all electronic tolling (cashless), which will mean a "barrier" between each interchange.

Is this really the case? Meaning that the PA Turnpike would go all mainline barriers instead of interchange tolling. If so, I haven't seen it reported anywhere. It seems to me that it would be just as easy to keep tolling at the interchanges and de-man the booths.

From the illustrations on the PTC Web site, it implies that they will transition to a mainline "barrier" system.  It should greatly simplify the addition of new entry and egress points.

Quote from: briantroutman on March 28, 2013, 10:00:38 PM
Even the most ardent states' rights supporters will generally agree that the federal government has a legitimate role in facilitating free and open commerce between states, so I don't think that nationwide standards on tolling practices is unreasonable. In my opinion, charging premiums to out-of-state motorists is predatory and anti-business.

I agree.  Congress should adopt a "checklist" of things that toll road operators must (and must not) do in order for their bonds to qualify for favorable federal tax treatment. 

I have suggested this stuff elsewhere, but here are some of the things that should be on that "checklist:"

(1) No discrimination against transponders issued by other toll road operators or owners.
(2) Positively no breezewoods or breezewood-like non-connections (aside from Pennsylvania, I can name breezewoods in New Jersey and Florida, though I believe there are others).
(3) Compliance with AASHTO/FHWA design standards and the MUTCD.
(4) Reasonable request for access to toll road mainlines should be accommodated (yes, this impacts the Pennsylvania Turnpike).

Quote from: briantroutman on March 28, 2013, 10:00:38 PM
As fuel tax revenues decline and are increasingly replaced by tolls, the fair and efficient collection of tolls across all areas is going to become an even more important issue.

Agreed.  Especially the fair part.

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2013, 11:37:28 AM
But it's highly unlikely the Turnpike will convert existing interchanges over within the next 50 years.  As for new ones, can't you put gantries over the ramps?

Yes, the gantries could be over the ramps.  That's how Highway 407 in Ontario has always been configured.

Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2013, 11:37:28 AM
I don't like the idea of having a zillion barrier tolls showing up on my statement when I could have a single entry/exit one.  Plus, since I have a Thruway tag, anything that isn't exit/entry looks funny on the statement.

As others suggested above, even with mainline gantries, you get "ticket system" type tolling.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 30, 2013, 04:53:55 PM
(2) Positively no breezwoods or breezewood-like non-connections (aside from Pennsylvania, I can name breezewoods in New Jersey and Florida, though I believe there are others).

Since Fort Pierce isn't a "breezewood" (you can simply use I-95 all the way from Miami), you must be talking about the SR 417 crossing near Orlando. Which toll authority gets the blame? Can OOCEA fuck up the Turnpike's bonds by refusing a connection?

You do understand that Breezewood is I-70 to I-70 via surface streets, right?  The NJ Turnpike to NJ 42 is not a 'Breezewood'. 

If anything, I-676 to I-676 in Philadelphia is more of a Breezewood than your definition, even though you're not passing by local businesses.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2013, 09:11:29 AM
You do understand that Breezewood is I-70 to I-70 via surface streets, right?  The NJ Turnpike to NJ 42 is not a 'Breezewood'.

I have driven through  the real Breezewood many times, and am (unfortunately) quite familiar with it, though I make it my business to never, ever stop there.

N.J. Turnpike to N.J. 42 qualifies (in my opinion) as a  breezewood-like non-connection. "breezewood-like" meaning non-connections between one freeway and a crossing freeway or freeways that forces a (sometimes circuitous) detour over non-access-controlled streets or highways. 

Note for the  record that I mean freeway in terms of federal functional classification, not the lack of tolls.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 01, 2013, 09:11:29 AM
If anything, I-676 to I-676 in Philadelphia is more of a Breezewood than your definition, even though you're not passing by local businesses.

I don't dispute that.

TOLLROADSnews: E-ZPass IAG-TDM specs now open source, available for download, "aids national IOP" - Kapsch, IAG (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6524)

Quote2013-04-25: Kapsch has released the specifications of the time division multiplexing (TDM) protocols used in E-ZPass electronic toll collection signaling. Both patented and unpatented proprietary codes associated with what has been called the IAG system are now an open standard, free for all to download and use, says Chris Murray, president and CEO of Kapsch Trafficom North America, based in McLean Virginia.

QuoteKapsch bought the rights to the IAG-TDM protocols in 2010 when it bought Mark IV Industries, the Mississauga Ontario startup company that had written the initial RF signaling codes about twenty years ago and defeated the toll industry leader TransCore (then Amtech) in the competition for the world's biggest electronic toll procurement conducted by the Inter Agency Group (IAG) of E-ZPass.  Mark IV made many additions and tweaks to the codes over the years since they have to work in an array of tolling environments from the dense traffic of New York City through the highspeed of the Ohio Turnpike to small bridges across the Delaware and Hudson Rivers.

QuoteThe IAG-TDM protocol is now available to "all interested parties" including competing toll system suppliers free of any royalty and in perpetuity. The only requirement, Murray told us in an interview yesterday (the news was provided under an embargo against use until 8am Apr 25) is that those downloading the protocol sign a license agreement in which they commit to make available without restriction any derivative or supplementary applications or code they write for the IAG-TDM.

TOLLROADSnews: Egis and Sanef JV to build first N American toll interoperability hub for ATI - to start by end of year (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6648)

Quote2013-07-19:  an American based joint venture of Egis Projects and Sanef, Secure Interagency Flow LLC (SIF) has a contract with the Alliance for Toll Interoperability (ATI) to build and operate the first full toll transactions clearing hub in North America for transactions of others' account holders. Detailed terms of the contract were accepted by ATI board Friday (7/19). Tollers who are members of ATI can enroll and make transaction processing arrangements with SIF from September.

QuoteActual daily processing of accountholders transactions at the HUB will begin January 1, 2014.

Quote(HUB all-uppercase is an informal brand term being used by ATI.)

QuotePotentially a boon to tollers and a major breakthrough for seamless electronic toll operations across the continent the HUB project does need to generate a critical mass of participation and patronage to be attractive and viable.  And of course since the transactions potentially clearable through the HUB depend on the number of tollers participating and the numbers of account holders they represent, its attraction will not be great early on - the critical mass issue.

Bumping this thread with a relevant article from TOLLROADSnews.

TransCore making moves on national IOP - enhanced eZGo Anywhere tag and nationwide account management (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6760)

QuoteTransCore is proposing an enhanced version of its multi-protocol eZGo Anywhere transponder as a major vehicular platform for national interoperability plus the option of account management at a national level. Company president Tracy Marks has put the proposal to the Alliance for Toll Interoperability (ATI) in a letter their board of directors is considering this week.

QuoteTransCore has made no announcement of the move and so far has chosen not to offer comment on it.

QuoteTransCore's present eZGo Anywhere (eZGo-A) transponders handle IAG protocols in E-ZPass toll country and SeGo, eGO and the older ATA as used in the south.

QuoteThere does seem to be consumer demand for interoperable equipment, based on experience in North Carolina.

QuoteNorth Carolina Turnpike (NCTA) did what they call a "soft launch" of the eZGo-A - no major promotional activity, just listing it as an option on their website basically. And they have not given it a distinctive brandname.

QuoteThey simply call the eZGo-A a Hard Case NC QUICK PASS, cost $20 and list E-ZPass as well as NC and SunPass under "Accepted Facilities." (The regular Sticker NC QUICK PASS is $5, and lists Florida's SunPasss as well as NC.) see nearby

QuoteYet despite this lowkey marketing they are selling about 1,200 of the multi-protocol transponder out of a total 4,000 tags sold each month.

Quote from: mtantillo on March 28, 2013, 11:57:37 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on March 28, 2013, 10:00:38 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike is planning to convert to all electronic tolling (cashless), which will mean a "barrier" between each interchange.

Is this really the case? Meaning that the PA Turnpike would go all mainline barriers instead of interchange tolling. If so, I haven't seen it reported anywhere. It seems to me that it would be just as easy to keep tolling at the interchanges and de-man the booths.

Even the most ardent states' rights supporters will generally agree that the federal government has a legitimate role in facilitating free and open commerce between states, so I don't think that nationwide standards on tolling practices is unreasonable. In my opinion, charging premiums to out-of-state motorists is predatory and anti-business.

As fuel tax revenues decline and are increasingly replaced by tolls, the fair and efficient collection of tolls across all areas is going to become an even more important issue.

I think the PA Turnpike thing isn't a big deal, because as a user with all electronic tolls, it doesn't matter to you where the toll tag is read, just drive like it is a normal road.  The "mainline gantries" are better than "entry/exit" gantries, because you don't have to match an entry with an exit to process the transaction.  Just process each segment at a fixed amount.  The tolls can be "bundled" before they are posted to your account, but they don't have to be.  If your tag mis-reads, they can post partial trips...whereas if it misreads on entry or exit they don't know where you got on or got off and have to "guess". 

Nationwide interoperability hasn't happened yet because the best example of interoperability uses antiquated technology (E-ZPass).  Other agencies use better technology (stickers that cost about $1 each, no batteries to replace) don't want to change to E-ZPass, and E-ZPass doesn't want to abandon their system using other hardware.  But that will change soon, as there is a mandate from Congress to have "National Interoperability" by 2016.  Most likely this will be license-plate based, not transponder based, because the different transponder types are just too costly to replace in a short time frame.  Better then nothing, but you better believe that toll agencies will STRONGLY encourage (through use of discounts, fees, or whatever) local people to use the local transponder and to not use license-plate based image tolls for the majority of their trips, because those image transactions are much more costly to process than transponder-based transactions. 

I agree that charging more to out-of-state motorists is predatory.  But unfortunately, for the time being, the courts have upheld it.  The court's interpretation is that "out of state motorists" are not charged higher fees, but "motorists with out of state transponders" are charged higher fees.  In otherwords, anyone from out of state could get an in-state transponder and pay the lower fee if they would like.  Drivers from that state that, for whatever reason, use a transponder from a different state will pay the higher fee.  There was a Federal court case about this in Massachusetts where a driver with a NY tag was complaining he was paying higher tolls in Boston as a result of his New York transponder.  The judge said he was free to get a Massachusetts transponder if he wanted to take advantage of the discount program. 

I disagree with the spirit of this, because if we wanted to get all the discounts for paying electronically, we'd have to carry multiple transponders, which defeats the purpose of interoperability.  But for now, the Feds say "it is okay". 

I personally have two E-ZPass transponders....because MTA in NY gives a HUGE discount to E-ZPass NY customers. I don't live there, but my parents do, and when I drive up that way, I'm often taking a bunch of trips in a short timespan.  But the toll facilities I drive most are in Maryland, and obviously I want their discount.  And I want a Flex transponder for use on I-495...so I have a Maryland account too. 

I typically drive around DC area with my Maryland transponder up (so I can flip over to HOV mode in the Express Lanes easily).  Obviously will also use it on long trips heading north as far as Delaware to take advantage of Maryland discounts.  But on any trip to or beyond Delaware, I'll swap over to my NY tag, because I'm typically racking up a lot of tolls and prefer NY's "pay as you go" plan as opposed to having to maintain a large account balance in Maryland (the goal is no more than one $25 replenishment/month on the Maryland account).  The only thing that trumps these rules is that all tolls for business purposes I'll pay with my NY transponder because I can print out a receipt for an individual transaction on my NY account (Maryland, despite having a very similar user interface, does not have this functionality).  Although Massachusetts has a sweet deal, I don't go there enough to justify maintaining another account, so I just suck up the extra 25 cents per plaza the few times I'm up there. 

So, I signed up for E-ZPass NY online and selected the MTA version (I live in NJ), and then lo and behold, they are charging me a maintenance fee. I called them up and they said that they automatically give you the Port Authority one if you live outside the state. First of all, isn't that lying - nowhere on the website does it say that this is the case, and I didn't lye about my state (NJ residents don't get redirected to a different page)? Second, isn't it discriminatory (only residents of NY state can get the MTA version)?

Quote from: bzakharin on October 03, 2013, 10:21:02 PM
So, when I signed up for E-ZPass NY online and selected the MTA version (I live in NJ), and then lo and behold, they are charging me a maintenance fee. I called them up and they said that they automatically give you the Port Authority one if you live outside the state, first of all, isn't that lying - nowhere on the website does it say that this is the case, and I didn't lye about my state (NJ residents don't get redirected to a different page) - and also discriminatory (only residents of NY state can get the MTA version)?

Curiously, when I stopped at the Milford, Connecticut service plaza on the toll-free (at least for now) Connecticut Turnpike last summer, the convenience store was selling MTA E-ZPass transponders - perhaps because Connecticut has no toll roads at all for the time being.

It's worth noting that the Port Authority is both NY and NJ, which is why they can charge the fee.

WJXT-Channel 4: South Carolina could be next for Sunpass (http://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/south-carolina-could-be-next-for-sunpass)

QuoteMotorists may be able to use their Florida SunPass transponders on South Carolina's toll roads in the coming months and on drives between Kansas and Texas in about a year, according to a newsletter sent out Tuesday to SunPass customers.

Quote"We expect that by late summer you will be able to use your SunPass transponder for your next trip to Hilton Head Island!" Florida's Turnpike Enterprise Executive Director Diane Gutierrez-Scaccetti said in the newsletter. "Also, by this time next year, we hope to have connected our SunPass Customer Service Center with the Central U.S. Interoperability Hub in Texas."

QuoteThe state continues to work with E-ZPass agencies -- spread across 16 states in the Northeast and Midwest -- to link the technologies, Gutierrez-Scaccetti wrote.

Quote"E-ZPass agencies do not yet have the capability to read SunPass," Gutierrez-Scaccetti wrote.

Have there been any updates on E-ZPass working in Florida? Doesn't matter too much since I have both, though if E-ZPass were operable there I might consider bagging the transponder once I'm south of Virginia simply as a hedge against getting charged twice, once on each system.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2013, 04:35:32 PM

Quote from: norahs on March 18, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
Thanks everyone... so now I won't go through any toll areas outside of Fla. and just hope I don't have a brain lapse up north and accidentally fly through without thinking.  The map is very useful and I hope they keep it updated.  Why does this all have to be so confusing.. more stuff to have to remember.  I know Florida is working on changing their default license plate design to make it easier to read by the cameras, and thus eliminating the jobs of the toll collectors.  They should just phase out the whole Sunpass thing and make it all EZPass..

Depending on where you plan to be driving, avoiding that "brain lapse" can be more important than you might realize. Some E-ZPass facilities still maintain the toll-machine arms in the E-ZPass Only lanes that were converted from machine-style exact-change lanes, meaning you have to slow almost to a complete stop until your E-ZPass registers and the arm goes up. The Dulles Greenway in Virginia, for example, uses that style because the space they were allowed to have for the toll plaza is limited, so they want to maintain maximum flexibility to change whether a given lane is full-service, exact change, or E-ZPass Only.

I don't travel to New York as often as I used to, so I don't know whether this statement is still accurate, but I recall pretty much all of the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority facilities continued to use the arms (presumably to try to prevent toll cheats from speeding through).

In either case, a SunPass will not trigger the arm to go up and you will have a lot of very enraged drivers behind you if you mistakenly enter one of those lanes.

Why not set it to gate up when in ETC only mode?

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2013, 10:01:11 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 26, 2013, 09:45:25 PM
how far apart are toll barriers, anyway?

Right now, on long "closed" (ticket) toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike or the Ohio Turnpike, it can be hundreds of miles between an entrance barrier and an exit barrier (consider driving the entire ticket system of the Penn Pike, from Warrendale (I-79) near Pittsburgh to the mainline barrier at Bristol (U.S. 13) just short of the Delaware River and the New Jersey border).  According to Google, that's between 325 and 330 miles.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike is planning to convert to all electronic tolling (cashless), which will mean a "barrier" between each interchange.

Md. 200 (ICC) has "barriers" (a gantry) between every interchange, and some of them are not more than a mile or two apart (some others are a little further apart, bit the road is not that long, only between 15 and 20 miles.

so PA is going to be like the EOE? Why dump the ticket based zones even full under ETC? unless they want to rework a lot of ramps to flow better.

Quote from: Joe The Dragon on July 07, 2016, 10:55:40 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2013, 04:35:32 PM

Quote from: norahs on March 18, 2013, 01:03:15 AM
Thanks everyone... so now I won't go through any toll areas outside of Fla. and just hope I don't have a brain lapse up north and accidentally fly through without thinking.  The map is very useful and I hope they keep it updated.  Why does this all have to be so confusing.. more stuff to have to remember.  I know Florida is working on changing their default license plate design to make it easier to read by the cameras, and thus eliminating the jobs of the toll collectors.  They should just phase out the whole Sunpass thing and make it all EZPass..

Depending on where you plan to be driving, avoiding that "brain lapse" can be more important than you might realize. Some E-ZPass facilities still maintain the toll-machine arms in the E-ZPass Only lanes that were converted from machine-style exact-change lanes, meaning you have to slow almost to a complete stop until your E-ZPass registers and the arm goes up. The Dulles Greenway in Virginia, for example, uses that style because the space they were allowed to have for the toll plaza is limited, so they want to maintain maximum flexibility to change whether a given lane is full-service, exact change, or E-ZPass Only.

I don't travel to New York as often as I used to, so I don't know whether this statement is still accurate, but I recall pretty much all of the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority facilities continued to use the arms (presumably to try to prevent toll cheats from speeding through).

In either case, a SunPass will not trigger the arm to go up and you will have a lot of very enraged drivers behind you if you mistakenly enter one of those lanes.

Why not set it to gate up when in ETC only mode?

The booths with the gate arms don't have cameras to catch toll violators.

The posts you guys are replying to are 3 years old.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2016, 10:10:51 AM
WJXT-Channel 4: South Carolina could be next for Sunpass (http://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/south-carolina-could-be-next-for-sunpass)

QuoteMotorists may be able to use their Florida SunPass transponders on South Carolina's toll roads in the coming months and on drives between Kansas and Texas in about a year, according to a newsletter sent out Tuesday to SunPass customers.

Quote"We expect that by late summer you will be able to use your SunPass transponder for your next trip to Hilton Head Island!" Florida's Turnpike Enterprise Executive Director Diane Gutierrez-Scaccetti said in the newsletter. "Also, by this time next year, we hope to have connected our SunPass Customer Service Center with the Central U.S. Interoperability Hub in Texas."

QuoteThe state continues to work with E-ZPass agencies -- spread across 16 states in the Northeast and Midwest -- to link the technologies, Gutierrez-Scaccetti wrote.

Quote"E-ZPass agencies do not yet have the capability to read SunPass," Gutierrez-Scaccetti wrote.

This should really have its own thread.

cp's post is the one to which I was replying. He posted yesterday.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 27, 2013, 05:02:18 PM

Here's an example of a toll gantry on the Beltway in Virginia (picture taken last November the Monday before Thanksgiving).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FHOT10.jpg&hash=321d244ef6b4488cfff1cb2e8a6b83dc79351b98)

Using a cantilever support for ETC readers and video cameras is a bad design choice, if you ask me.  Not only is the wind moment on the arm greater than you would have with a full span, but over time the additional vibration will affect the reliability of the reading equipment.  I've been told that the ETC gantries being installed on the Mass. Pike were specified as full span, and in some cases complete span (i.e. over the entire width of the roadway), structures to avoid such issues.

Quote from: roadman on July 11, 2016, 08:39:15 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 27, 2013, 05:02:18 PM

Here's an example of a toll gantry on the Beltway in Virginia (picture taken last November the Monday before Thanksgiving).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FHOT10.jpg&hash=321d244ef6b4488cfff1cb2e8a6b83dc79351b98)

Using a cantilever support for ETC readers and video cameras is a bad design choice, if you ask me.  Not only is the wind moment on the arm greater than you would have with a full span, but over time the additional vibration will affect the reliability of the reading equipment.  I've been told that the ETC gantries being installed on the Mass. Pike were specified as full span, and in some cases complete span (i.e. over the entire width of the roadway), structures to avoid such issues.

That post is from 2013, but anyway, that carriageway is a total of six lanes there (two HO/T lanes seen in this picture, then four general-purpose lanes to the right). Actually, I believe the deceleration lane for the right-side exit up ahead begins on the far right at roughly this point, too. Either way, I have no doubt they didn't want to put something spanning the entire six lanes when only two lanes are tolled. The Massachusetts Turnpike example is obviously a different scenario in that respect.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 11, 2016, 10:18:54 PM
That post is from 2013, but anyway, that carriageway is a total of six lanes there (two HO/T lanes seen in this picture, then four general-purpose lanes to the right). Actually, I believe the deceleration lane for the right-side exit up ahead begins on the far right at roughly this point, too. Either way, I have no doubt they didn't want to put something spanning the entire six lanes when only two lanes are tolled. The Massachusetts Turnpike example is obviously a different scenario in that respect.

Good points.  I can see the rationale for using a cantilever support in this instance.  As long as they are prepared to periodically tweak the readers as necessary, it shouldn't be a major problem.  For one thing, it's not like they have a VMS on the arm.