What I'm trying to say is. That, along Route 44 in Redding, there are a few exits that have exit numbers posted on top right tabs, rather than being inside the exit sign. The exits are Exit 3 to 5. This is a rare find, as most exits in California have the exit numbers inside.
Is there more than I just saw?
Quote from: Lytton on March 22, 2013, 09:07:09 AM
What I'm trying to say is. That, along Route 44 in Redding, there are a few exits that have exit numbers posted on top right tabs, rather than being inside the exit sign. The exits are Exit 3 to 5. This is a rare find, as most exits in California have the exit numbers inside.
Is there more than I just saw?
they're around - they seem not to be confined to one particular district. I can't think of any examples offhand, but I think US-101 just south of San Francisco has several.
Quote from: Lytton on March 22, 2013, 09:07:09 AM
What I'm trying to say is. That, along Route 44 in Redding, there are a few exits that have exit numbers posted on top right tabs, rather than being inside the exit sign. The exits are Exit 3 to 5. This is a rare find, as most exits in California have the exit numbers inside.
Is there more than I just saw?
Check out southbound I-5 in Tehema County (https://www.aaroads.com/california/i-005sc_ca.html). For the most part, external exit tabs are used on roadside signs and not on overhead signs. There are also a few random external exit tabbed signs scattered across the state too.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 22, 2013, 09:20:17 AM
I can't think of any examples offhand, but I think US-101 just south of San Francisco has several.
Are you sure? As someone who drives US 101 from time-to-time, I don't recall seeing any external exit tabs used on US 101's exit signs.
I am thinking "virtual external", where the sign is a green rectangle large enough to house two rectangular outlines: the main sign, and then a tab at upper right. next to the tab is a big green empty space.
physical external is really quite rare.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 22, 2013, 03:24:34 PM
I am thinking "virtual external", where the sign is a green rectangle large enough to house two rectangular outlines: the main sign, and then a tab at upper right. next to the tab is a big green empty space.
physical external is really quite rare.
I was talking about the physical external.
Well...guess what? I saw a few on I-5 in South Los Angeles County, and a few on US 101 in Los Angeles. Maybe, they aren't quite rare?
They might be from the 70s.
Quote from: vdeane on March 24, 2013, 07:58:30 PM
They might be from the 70s.
No, the ones in Redding, look modern.
Quote from: Lytton on March 25, 2013, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 24, 2013, 07:58:30 PM
They might be from the 70s.
No, the ones in Redding, look modern.
I think vdeane was referencing your comment that you saw external exit tabs on portions of I-5 and US 101 in and around downtown Los Angeles. Those older tabs were put up in the 1970's as a Caltrans experiment and can be easily identified because they are center-aligned and do not use reflective sheeting.
@ myosh_tino
He's probably talking about these:
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001e_02a.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001d_02.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_002a_03a.jpg)
Here's one in Orange County.
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images055/ca-055_nb_exit_005a_05.jpg)
Wind-loading my ass.
I think the wind-loading claim is lame too.
Have exit tabs been blowing off in hurricanes, in the states that get hurricanes?
Personally, I happen to like CalTrans' internal exit tabs.
However, I'm in agreement about the wind-load claim being crap.
I'm in southern Louisiana. We of course can be exposed to hurricane force winds. I've seen entire signs blow off the sign bridge or damaged, but I don't think the exit# tabs really had much been much of a factor. I've never seen a sign with just the tab blown off. (though I'm sure it could happen) I was on a road trip along the gulf coast recently, both Miss and Al. use exit tabs above the signs. Perhaps the signs here are attached better to compensate for the wind risk.
What I find interesting about CA. is a lack of consistency with the exit# issue. I've seen 3 different versions in picture/videos.
Mark
Caltrans does it's "exit only" signing a little different than what you'd see here too.
Quote from: kkt on April 03, 2013, 05:30:56 PM
Have exit tabs been blowing off in hurricanes, in the states that get hurricanes?
All of the states with hurricanes (except Georgia) use external tabs... Nevada gets more wind (due to elevation and climate) than California, and they use external tabs with the exact same struts on their gantries and sign bridges.
Isn't this like the fifth time it's been explained on the forum: changing to external exit tabs would also require the state to conduct additional wind-loading studies first–which means more time, manpower, and money that is arguably unnecessary to spend.
Even if Caltrans would need to do more wind loading studies, that is something they could slowly do as time permits with existing manpower of engineering/research staff so that they wouldn't need to spend any extra money.
Or maybe just call over to NDOT. Nevada uses many of the same box truss sign bridges and has similar sign sizing standards, yet still uses external exit tabs. If Nevada actually experiences much more wind than California, then NDOT might already have information on wind loading that Caltrans could find useful.
I wonder if part of Caltrans' thinking is that the external tab adds to sign area and overall cost for additional support, etc. That certainly makes sense for replacing existing signs within the same footprint (i.e. new signs with exit numbers for CalNExUS).
Quote from: roadfro on April 06, 2013, 02:20:32 PM
Even if Caltrans would need to do more wind loading studies, that is something they could slowly do as time permits with existing manpower of engineering/research staff so that they wouldn't need to spend any extra money.
Or maybe just call over to NDOT. Nevada uses many of the same box truss sign bridges and has similar sign sizing standards, yet still uses external exit tabs. If Nevada actually experiences much more wind than California, then NDOT might already have information on wind loading that Caltrans could find useful.
I wonder if part of Caltrans' thinking is that the external tab adds to sign area and overall cost for additional support, etc. That certainly makes sense for replacing existing signs within the same footprint (i.e. new signs with exit numbers for CalNExUS).
From an engineering standpoint: Caltrans designed the gantries to a particular set of sign dimensions (I believe elsewhere 10 feet was established as the maximum height). Anything deviating from those dimensions needs backup engineering calculations, even if it's patently obvious that it will work fine. Why? Because if on 15,000 installations, only one has an issue, and the wind causes that one sign to pop off and injure or, worse, kill a driver, Caltrans is out tens of millions of dollars in liability and will be forced to do all the calculations for all the signs at that time anyway.
How long does Caltrans expect that it will take to have exit numbers on all the freeway signs that qualify? I know that they started changing them out in the early 2000's.
Mark
Quote from: pctech on April 09, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
How long does Caltrans expect that it will take to have exit numbers on all the freeway signs that qualify? I know that they started changing them out in the early 2000's.
Mark
The original completion date for numbering all exits was supposed to be late 2004 but budget problems forced Caltrans to remove the completion date entirely. The new policy is when signs are replaced, the new signs will include an exit number. Given the fact that some California signs are 50+ years old, it could be 2030 before all exits are numbered. :biggrin:
Quote from: myosh_tino on April 09, 2013, 01:52:51 PM
Quote from: pctech on April 09, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
How long does Caltrans expect that it will take to have exit numbers on all the freeway signs that qualify? I know that they started changing them out in the early 2000's.
Mark
The original completion date for numbering all exits was supposed to be late 2004 but budget problems forced Caltrans to remove the completion date entirely. The new policy is when signs are replaced, the new signs will include an exit number. Given the fact that some California signs are 50+ years old, it could be 2030 before all exits are numbered. :biggrin:
Myosh_tino,
Where did you learn that Caltrans was only adding exit numbers as signs are replaced? I was wondering what the criteria has been for sign replacement, since sign age does not seem to be an indicator of whether the sign should be replaced. I've noticed most new signs these days are added whenever a construction project adds lanes, resurfaces pavement, or otherwise alters the roadway. An exception was the recent sign replacement from Dec 2012 that removed all SR 209 and SR 274 signs from the various intersecting freeways. (There are a few more SR 274 signs around if you know where to look!)
Regards,
Andy
Quote from: andy3175 on April 09, 2013, 11:22:25 PM
Where did you learn that Caltrans was only adding exit numbers as signs are replaced?
6th paragraph at http://www.cahighways.org/num-exitnum.html -- That's where I read it.
When the exit is left handed, other than place the exit# to left of the sign apparently CA doesn't add the "left exit" warning? The few I've seen photos of seem to be labeled this way.
Mark
If they don't use tabs, do you really think they're gonna use even bigger taps to deal with a change in the 2009 MUTCD?
Quote from: myosh_tino on March 22, 2013, 03:15:12 PMCheck out southbound I-5 in Tehema County (https://www.aaroads.com/california/i-005sc_ca.html). For the most part, external exit tabs are used on roadside signs and not on overhead signs. There are also a few random external exit tabbed signs scattered across the state too.
I just drove that segment a week ago. I spotted one button copy sign with an externally mounted retroreflective tab which had been retrofitted to it. I believe exit 653, but don't quote me on that.
I noticed in some recent photographs of Texas highways that TXDOT seems to switching from above the sign exit# tabs to signs with the exit number in the sign. There is a divider line in the top part of the BGS. (like GADOT uses)
Mark
Quote from: pctech on April 12, 2013, 09:15:44 AM
I noticed in some recent photographs of Texas highways that TXDOT seems to switching from above the sign exit# tabs to signs with the exit number in the sign. There is a divider line in the top part of the BGS. (like GADOT uses)
Mark
Like GADOT? Or like IDOT? I haven't seen the pictures, but one (GA) centered the text while the other (IL) aligns the text to the side the exit is on.
TXDOT appears to using # aligned to the side that the exit is located on. You are right about GADOT, they center the number in the sign. I wonder what prompted the TX switch?
Quote from: pctech on April 12, 2013, 10:26:58 AM
TXDOT appears to using # aligned to the side that the exit is located on. You are right about GADOT, they center the number in the sign. I wonder what prompted the TX switch?
Wonder if TXDOT picked up an engineer from IDOT. :-D
Quote from: pctech on April 12, 2013, 10:26:58 AM
You are right about GADOT, they center the number in the sign.
Since GDOT switched to the E(M) font, they also switched to the right-aligned exit tab which is not full width.
http://goo.gl/maps/uO2oX
I think that the way the exit# is displayed on this sign is a good compromise between an external #tab and the "in the box" ones .
https://www.aaroads.com/california/images099/ca-099_nb_exit_185_06.jpg
Mark
It's better than the box things but it still wastes quite a bit of space. If they used a tab there, they wouldn't have to cram the remaining info in such a tiny area.
I never understood why brand new gantries in California still have the lame "tab inside the sign". Being an all new structure, it shouldn't have any issues with wind load since it should have been engineered into the design. Around here when NJDOT wants to add a missing exit number that should have been posted 25 years ago, they just tack it on, usually removing dead florescent lighting in the process.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on April 18, 2013, 09:49:10 PM
I never understood why brand new gantries in California still have the lame "tab inside the sign". Being an all new structure, it shouldn't have any issues with wind load since it should have been engineered into the design. Around here when NJDOT wants to add a missing exit number that should have been posted 25 years ago, they just tack it on, usually removing dead florescent lighting in the process.
According to Caltrans employee and AARoads Forum member jrouse, all new sign trusses can accommodate external exit number tabs but there's a problem.
From the California Observations thread...
Quote from: jrouse on February 24, 2012, 01:14:17 PM
The Caltrans sign truss standards were significantly revised in early 2005. At that time, it was noted that the new structures could accommodate exit number tabs. However, to this day, there has not been a detail made available for mounting tabs. I have spoken with the engineer who is responsible for the sign structure standard plans, and he has told me that he knows there is a need for such a detail, but it is not a high priority.
Apparently, since Caltrans got approval from the FHWA to implement internal exit number tabs, there's no rush to develop a method of attaching external tabs to overhead signs. Besides, it's still cheaper to reuse existing sign trusses rather than buying new trusses.
Quote from: vdeane on April 18, 2013, 11:20:27 AM
It's better than the box things but it still wastes quite a bit of space. If they used a tab there, they wouldn't have to cram the remaining info in such a tiny area.
This sign...
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images099/ca-099_nb_exit_185_06.jpg)
...would probably look like this if exit numbering wasn't required...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmarkyville.com%2Faaroads%2F99-MissionAve.png&hash=cdc2407dd188ab57aecf3be12cad6dedf882d70c)
IMO, that's not "crammed in a tiny area" in my book. To me, that looks like a standard pre-exit number exit direction sign.
What's interesting to me is a lack of a consistency by Caltrans. If you follow the AA roads photo sequence for CA-99 some of the BGS's have this type, some have the "in the box" type and some BGS's have no exit numbers. (i assume they are old ones that haven't been replaced yet). And I thought that LADODT was nutty! :D
Quote from: myosh_tino on April 19, 2013, 02:07:12 AM
According to Caltrans employee and AARoads Forum member jrouse, all new sign trusses can accommodate external exit number tabs but there's a problem.
From the California Observations thread...
Quote from: jrouse on February 24, 2012, 01:14:17 PM
The Caltrans sign truss standards were significantly revised in early 2005. At that time, it was noted that the new structures could accommodate exit number tabs. However, to this day, there has not been a detail made available for mounting tabs. I have spoken with the engineer who is responsible for the sign structure standard plans, and he has told me that he knows there is a need for such a detail, but it is not a high priority.
Apparently, since Caltrans got approval from the FHWA to implement internal exit number tabs, there's no rush to develop a method of attaching external tabs to overhead signs. Besides, it's still cheaper to reuse existing sign trusses rather than buying new trusses.
Why don't they just steal a method from another state? Why re-invent the wheel? Plus even the older structures can accommodate the tab (the exact same ones are used in other states with tabs); CA just has oddball wind loading standards. If I was the FHWA, I would have said "No you don't get to use internal tabs, that wind load excuse is pure BS, now go actually read the MUTCD instead of just half-heartedly adding exit numbers to say you're adopting the MUTCD".
Quote
IMO, that's not "crammed in a tiny area" in my book. To me, that looks like a standard pre-exit number exit direction sign.
That's probably because you live in CA. I'm not comparing to pre-exit number; I'm comparing to other states (NYSDOT region 4 in particular).
Quote from: myosh_tino on April 19, 2013, 02:07:12 AM
From the California Observations thread...
Quote from: jrouse on February 24, 2012, 01:14:17 PM
The Caltrans sign truss standards were significantly revised in early 2005. At that time, it was noted that the new structures could accommodate exit number tabs. However, to this day, there has not been a detail made available for mounting tabs. I have spoken with the engineer who is responsible for the sign structure standard plans, and he has told me that he knows there is a need for such a detail, but it is not a high priority.
Apparently, since Caltrans got approval from the FHWA to implement internal exit number tabs, there's no rush to develop a method of attaching external tabs to overhead signs. Besides, it's still cheaper to reuse existing sign trusses rather than buying new trusses.
And yet ISTHA can add exit number on aligned tabs west of Aurora on I-88 without replacing the trusses and without previously having instructions/documentation on installing such tabs. Why can ISTHA do what CalTrans (both agencies that did not use exit numbering for years) cannot? :confused:
Hi Everyone,
I know this thread has been dormant for a while but I drove by this sign yesterday and actually went back to take a photo.
Anyone seen an offset exit tab like this? The sign is quite wide, but other than possible tree obstruction I can't think of a logical reason for it being designed and put up this way. Thoughts??
This is SR-23 southbound at Ave de Los Arboles in Thousand Oaks. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/4656366bb1473c5fe5263f0dc62d2f49.jpg)
Quote from: AndyMax25 on November 01, 2021, 07:34:27 PM
Thoughts??
This is SR-23 southbound at Ave de Los Arboles in Thousand Oaks. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/4656366bb1473c5fe5263f0dc62d2f49.jpg)
There's an ongoing pavement rehabilitation project (07-302504) that will replace the overhead signs on this section of SR-23. This sign in particular will be replaced with a sign that has the exit tab properly aligned all the way to the right.
If you look at the project plans for 07-302504, Sheet S-21, it shows the old sign with the oddly positioned exit tab. I'm thinking they used field observations to properly show the layout of the old sign; it would be really odd if it was designed that way and is mostly likely a fabrication error.
Based on Google Streetview it looks like the existing sign structure was installed shortly after February 2008 during a road widening project. If someone could find the plans for that project it would show if it was actually designed that way or if it was just a fabrication error.
Wasn't there something put out recently by Caltrans that external exit tabs would change the load capacity of the overhead gantries enough that it wasn't worth the cost to retrofit anything existing?