I'm planning a trip from Detroit to Dallas, and one of possible routes I'm considering is I-44 west to US-69 south at Big Cabin, OK, which raises a question.
I've only traveled the Will Rogers Turnpike from end to end ever since the ticketing system went away, paying the cash toll at the midpoint toll plaza, which is just east of the Big Cabin exit. How is the toll handled for westbound traffic which then exits at Big Cabin? (Or, for that matter, any other exit before Tulsa.) The OTA web site is not real helpful on this point. This is not a big deal one way or the other, I'm just curious.
If going westbound, you pay the toll at the ramp toll plaza if you exit at the Miami, Afton, or Vinita exits. Between the Vinita & Big Cabin exits, there is the mainline toll plaza, where toll is paid in full, no matter where you get off the turnpike. If exiting at Big Cabin or Claremore, then you present your toll receipt that you got at the mainline toll plaza, and you will receive a refund of the difference in the toll rate.
Quote from: okroads on March 28, 2013, 09:22:05 PM
If going westbound, you pay the toll at the ramp toll plaza if you exit at the Miami, Afton, or Vinita exits. Between the Vinita & Big Cabin exits, there is the mainline toll plaza, where toll is paid in full, no matter where you get off the turnpike. If exiting at Big Cabin or Claremore, then you present your toll receipt that you got at the mainline toll plaza, and you will receive a refund of the difference in the toll rate.
Thanks!
Quote from: okroads on March 28, 2013, 09:22:05 PM
If going westbound, you pay the toll at the ramp toll plaza if you exit at the Miami, Afton, or Vinita exits. Between the Vinita & Big Cabin exits, there is the mainline toll plaza, where toll is paid in full, no matter where you get off the turnpike. If exiting at Big Cabin or Claremore, then you present your toll receipt that you got at the mainline toll plaza, and you will receive a refund of the difference in the toll rate.
Pardon me, but that's got to be one of the screwier systems for collecting tolls.
And OTA is one of the screwier toll agencies. What's new?
I always thought Oklahoma had its toll systems rather well figured out, at least on the Turner and Will Rogers. You get halfway and pay your full toll there. Beyond that, you got partially refunded when you exit unless you drive the whole way. Before the halfway point, you pay when you get off.
It was like $3 to drive from OKC to Tulsa the last time I was up that way. I'm told it's $4 now. For 88 miles, not bad.
One night I made it from one end of the Turner Turnpike to the other in 57 minutes.
Quote from: catch22 on March 28, 2013, 01:48:16 PM
I'm planning a trip from Detroit to Dallas, and one of possible routes I'm considering is I-44 west to US-69 south at Big Cabin, OK, which raises a question.
I've only traveled the Will Rogers Turnpike from end to end ever since the ticketing system went away, paying the cash toll at the midpoint toll plaza, which is just east of the Big Cabin exit. How is the toll handled for westbound traffic which then exits at Big Cabin? (Or, for that matter, any other exit before Tulsa.) The OTA web site is not real helpful on this point. This is not a big deal one way or the other, I'm just curious.
Just buy a Pikepass and you won't have to worry about it. I went to the casino near the OK/KS/MO tripoint to see Cody Canada And The Departed play and the cash lanes were backed up several cars deep. I whizzed by at 80 with my Pikepass and didn't lose 10 minutes.
Maybe a little off-topic, but has anyone thought about the possibility of TA's tracking speed on those who use K-Tag, PikePass, etc., by estimating speed based on entrance and exit times in the system?
Not that I am encouraging this, but since they have your address, etc., the local Highway Patrol could mail you a ticket, like they do with red-light cameras.
Hoping they never do this... I like to fly a little low on the KTA.
ICTRds
Not sure about the transponders, but I recall on at least one occasion when I shared a ride with a couple of people to get from college to home. And using the Ohio Turnpike, the driver got a little lecture about driving too fast as he was paying the toll (I believe they were averaging about 80 MPH in the then 55-zones).
I don't think the turnpike authorities can do much to penalize a speeder. There seems to be too many variables on ticketed and non-ticketed toll roads that could be used to challenge such an accusation and/or citation. Plus, if you were to challenge the ticket in court, who would be the "witness" on the law enforcement side that would confirm that they physically saw you speeding?
Quote from: WichitaRoads on June 02, 2013, 03:59:09 PM
Maybe a little off-topic, but has anyone thought about the possibility of TA's tracking speed on those who use K-Tag, PikePass, etc., by estimating speed based on entrance and exit times in the system?
Not that I am encouraging this, but since they have your address, etc., the local Highway Patrol could mail you a ticket, like they do with red-light cameras.
Hoping they never do this... I like to fly a little low on the KTA.
ICTRds
If that were to occur, they'd lose users of their systems overnight. For example, the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) has said that this data will not be used for speed patrol reasons. They know that they'd lose a lot of users PDQ over something like that, and maybe even incur the wrath of their own Illinois State Police district (District 15).
Quote from: bugo on June 01, 2013, 10:42:26 AM
Quote from: catch22 on March 28, 2013, 01:48:16 PM
I'm planning a trip from Detroit to Dallas, and one of possible routes I'm considering is I-44 west to US-69 south at Big Cabin, OK, which raises a question.
I've only traveled the Will Rogers Turnpike from end to end ever since the ticketing system went away, paying the cash toll at the midpoint toll plaza, which is just east of the Big Cabin exit. How is the toll handled for westbound traffic which then exits at Big Cabin? (Or, for that matter, any other exit before Tulsa.) The OTA web site is not real helpful on this point. This is not a big deal one way or the other, I'm just curious.
Just buy a Pikepass and you won't have to worry about it. I went to the casino near the OK/KS/MO tripoint to see Cody Canada And The Departed play and the cash lanes were backed up several cars deep. I whizzed by at 80 with my Pikepass and didn't lose 10 minutes.
If from Detroit why would a person want a pike pass?
Quote from: Brandon on June 02, 2013, 07:50:18 PM
Quote from: WichitaRoads on June 02, 2013, 03:59:09 PM
Maybe a little off-topic, but has anyone thought about the possibility of TA's tracking speed on those who use K-Tag, PikePass, etc., by estimating speed based on entrance and exit times in the system?
Not that I am encouraging this, but since they have your address, etc., the local Highway Patrol could mail you a ticket, like they do with red-light cameras.
Hoping they never do this... I like to fly a little low on the KTA.
ICTRds
If that were to occur, they'd lose users of their systems overnight. For example, the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) has said that this data will not be used for speed patrol reasons. They know that they'd lose a lot of users PDQ over something like that, and maybe even incur the wrath of their own Illinois State Police district (District 15).
Oh yes but shall we not forget the camel with its nose under the tent. This is a for sure probable in the future. They use cameras for speeders why not toll times? Cameras tie the vehicle to the time. Challenge in court, big deal. Who owns the courts?
You may call me wacko but just keep up on your history and how our governments have progressed to control our lives. Now insurance companies are giving discounts for use of the "black box". When will it be required? Why do you think they want them? If you happen to be speeding at the time of the accident, ZAP... you are SOL on your claim that the other guy screwed up.
As far as losing users, why? People still don't believe they will get caught running red lights with cameras. Ah, cameras = tickets. Do bad guys stop carrying guns because they are not suppose to? Even so, for us legal people running the speed limit on the toll roads they are usually faster than not using them.
I personally hate toll roads. But I must use them when I need to make time.
Come on folks, if a government can make money off of you they will by hook or crook. And control is a bonus.
Looks like I got things all stirred up! I see the "losing users" idea... if they're tagging ya by using the transponders, just take the ticket and pay a little more. But, since the tickets are fed into a computer, too... same data can be collected on your start and end times, and figuring an average speed. Only differences are no address and name. But, they could think of something!
However, I also think that this is an idea whose time is come, if we like it or not. The idea of the expansion of government is clear... no matter who is in office in Fed, State, or Local. Think about the recent KTA/KDOT merger... it was done to pull money in to state coffers, no matter what "safeguards" were put in place. The KTA is basically a state road in toto now. If they need more cash, they'll look to speeding tickets. And with cameras at toll plazas, and very accurate computing software, it will be quite admissable if a ticket case went to court.
The only thing I hope is that if they begin to do this, the media picks up on it, and we know that it has begun.
ICTRds
The thing is, though, using transponders saves the toll authority money. For every car that uses Pikepass, OTA saves money by not having to have a tollbooth attendant there, they don't have to print a receipt, they don't have to collect or disburse change, etc. etc. The overhead is much lower. That's why most toll agencies have an incentive to get a transponder in the form of giving discounts to transponder users.
When a ticket is written, who does that money go to? Not the toll authority, in any case that I'm aware of. Where exactly It goes depends on local laws but it's usually some combination of the state's general expenditures fund or to municipal and county governments. (Look at whose courthouse you're paying the money to, next ticket you have to pay.) Toll agencies are often by law dependent solely upon toll revenue for their income, and many take a point of pride in it. (Just about every KTA publication I've seen has KTA going out of the way to bring this up.) People are less tolerant of tolls if they think the toll authority doesn't really need the money, so it's in the authority's interest to keep the public aware that they depend just on the toll revenue.
So how does it benefit the toll authority to use their data for writing tickets? Transponder enrollment goes down, so overhead goes up; people will assume rightly or wrongly that the toll authority is getting a cut of the profit, so people start rattling their sabers over the tolls. And then revenue might go down as the road gets a reputation as a speed trap. Does that sound like a situation anyone would want to be in? So toll authorities only share transponder information when compelled to by a subpoena (which nobody will go through the trouble to get just to issue a traffic ticket).
Food for thought: the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2013, 01:55:39 AM
the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?
Without a doubt, it's a little perk to entice customers to take the turnpikes. It's the reason that Alt US 412 is a 55 MPH highway.
Quote from: bugo on June 03, 2013, 09:11:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2013, 01:55:39 AM
the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?
Without a doubt, it's a little perk to entice customers to take the turnpikes. It's the reason that Alt US 412 is a 55 MPH highway.
I think that section of Alt US 412 would have been 55 even if the Cherokee was never built. It's pretty curvy. In fact, the dangerousness of that section of OK-33 was
why the Cherokee was built.
I do think it's dumb that the turnpikes have higher speed limits when I-35, for example is built much safer than the Cimarron Turnpike.
Nonexistant left shoulders plus narrow grassy hump for a median should not equal higher speed limit.
Quote from: kphoger on June 03, 2013, 01:59:48 PM
I do think it's dumb that the turnpikes have higher speed limits when I-35, for example is built much safer than the Cimarron Turnpike.
Nonexistant left shoulders plus narrow grassy hump for a median should not equal higher speed limit.
That's marketing, baby!
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2013, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 03, 2013, 09:11:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2013, 01:55:39 AM
the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?
Without a doubt, it's a little perk to entice customers to take the turnpikes. It's the reason that Alt US 412 is a 55 MPH highway.
I think that section of Alt US 412 would have been 55 even if the Cherokee was never built. It's pretty curvy. In fact, the dangerousness of that section of OK-33 was why the Cherokee was built.
I don't believe it would be. The Oklahoma segment of the very curvy and mountainous Talimena Skyline Drive (OK 1) has a 65 MPH speed limit.
Quote from: bugo on June 03, 2013, 07:44:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2013, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 03, 2013, 09:11:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2013, 01:55:39 AM
the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?
Without a doubt, it's a little perk to entice customers to take the turnpikes. It's the reason that Alt US 412 is a 55 MPH highway.
I think that section of Alt US 412 would have been 55 even if the Cherokee was never built. It's pretty curvy. In fact, the dangerousness of that section of OK-33 was why the Cherokee was built.
I don't believe it would be. The Oklahoma segment of the very curvy and mountainous Talimena Skyline Drive (OK 1) has a 65 MPH speed limit.
OK-1 doesn't have many driveways and houses along it, though.
Why is the nice modern section of OK 82 signed at 55 while the old crooked section is 65? Why is I-44 60 MPH through Tulsa while I-244, the BA, and US 75 are 65 except through downtown? Why is the Poteau bypass 55 while US 59 and OK 112 at each end of the bypass, both two lane highways, are 65? Okie has some fucked up speed limits.
Quote from: bugo on June 04, 2013, 05:00:26 AM
1. Why is the nice modern section of OK 82 signed at 55 while the old crooked section is 65?
2. Why is I-44 60 MPH through Tulsa while I-244, the BA, and US 75 are 65 except through downtown?
3. Why is the Poteau bypass 55 while US 59 and OK 112 at each end of the bypass, both two lane highways, are 65?
1. Because Georgia.
2. Because Alanbengoatse.
3. Because $$$.
And Texas has 85mph on the toll road around Austin south. The toll authority has all but said the reason was for marketing. They still are having trouble getting enough traffic on it.
Quote from: leroys73 on June 12, 2013, 10:05:04 PM
And Texas has 85mph on the toll road around Austin south. The toll authority has all but said the reason was for marketing. They still are having trouble getting enough traffic on it.
And they're still trying desperately to get trucks to take it by charging the 2-axle rate. The biggest issue for most trucks is that since most of the road is transponder/by-mail only, most won't take it because of how their company would handle the bill.
Quote from: leroys73 on June 12, 2013, 10:05:04 PM
And Texas has 85mph on the toll road around Austin south. The toll authority has all but said the reason was for marketing. They still are having trouble getting enough traffic on it.
On the other hand, I certainly didn't mind being able to do 80 (85?) legally on a four-lane road with low traffic counts.
Quote from: WichitaRoads on June 02, 2013, 03:59:09 PMMaybe a little off-topic, but has anyone thought about the possibility of TA's tracking speed on those who use K-Tag, PikePass, etc., by estimating speed based on entrance and exit times in the system?
They could do that; this would be an average speed measure. But actually they can nail you just by using the video cameras (every K-Tag lane has video surveillance) to measure how rapidly your vehicle clears the frame and comparing that to the regulatory speed limit on the plaza approach. In fact, I suspect they can do that easily enough right now with human toll collectors, because I am sure the cash lanes have video surveillance as well; it would certainly be unsafe to assume that they do not.
However, toll authorities do not involve themselves in law enforcement. Even after 20 years of K-Tag, Kansas is still very new to the concept of electronic tolling (as evidenced by KTA's very casual approach toward instructing users on how to fasten K-Tags to the windshield), but the Illinois Tollway is more sophisticated and sends out every transponder with a leaflet that explains its privacy policy, which requires law enforcement (with certain very limited exceptions) to obtain a subpoena to receive your toll plaza transit information.
Quote from: WichitaRoads on June 02, 2013, 03:59:09 PMNot that I am encouraging this, but since they have your address, etc., the local Highway Patrol could mail you a ticket, like they do with red-light cameras.
It would be deeply counterproductive to do that. First, there would be all kinds of due-process concerns. How do they know that the account holder was driving the car? How do they account for stolen cars, stolen transponders, or cars sold or transferred without the transponder being removed? (KTA, unlike some toll agencies like the Illinois Tollway, does not even require you to register a vehicle for use with electronic tolling.) Second, toll agencies have shown little to no interest in exploring, let alone dealing with, the unintended consequences of dragnet enforcement, such as people stacking up and waiting in service areas to pull down their average speeds to the legal limit. Third, people focused on avoiding pursuit for technical violations of the law are badly placed to help the police clear serious crimes without exposing themselves to legal liability.
Quote from: WichitaRoads on June 02, 2013, 03:59:09 PMHoping they never do this... I like to fly a little low on the KTA.
At this point I have a K-Tag and an I-Pass, and I worry more about blown reads than about transponders being used for speed enforcement. On the Illinois Tollway a video toll keeps you legal if your transponder fails to read, and your toll plaza transit history (downloadable as a CSV file when you log in to your account) explicitly marks video tolls as such, so you can see if your transponder is developing a problem. KTA does not have a good way of handling blown reads: the gate just stays down until someone comes out to ask you your entry point, while traffic stacks up behind you. OTA does not have gates but does have lots of signs threatening effectively to hang you by your thumbs for toll evasion. KTA, OTA, and the Illinois Tollway all have indicator lamps for successful reads at ramp plazas, but no agency has figured out how to give feedback for successful reads at ORT gantries.
It is a hassle to handle money and the car at the same time, but at least there is never any comeback for a cash toll paid in full. A blown transponder read is a hostage to fortune: you often can't tell when it has happened, let alone if or when it will result in surprise serious consequences like fines, blocks on license renewal, heavy interest charges, etc. This is one reason I support the concept of a toll payer's bill of rights, to ensure that a transponder can be used with as much peace of mind as cash.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 19, 2016, 03:29:17 PM
KTA, OTA, and the Illinois Tollway all have indicator lamps for successful reads at ramp plazas, but no agency has figured out how to give feedback for successful reads at ORT gantries.
It's ORT. They don't want you to have feedback, quite deliberately, because drivers will stop if the light doesn't turn green or slow down to look for the indicator. Or both. (The one exception is active tags, like FasTrak. It beeps when it is read by an ORT gantry, and the pattern is supposed to mean something. But even then they say don't stop if it doesn't beep.)
At least on all the toll systems I've used, every tag read shows up within a day at most in the online system--usually within a few minutes, unless inter-agency tolling is involved. As for blown reads, that's why you register your license plate with them; if they find it in the system, it gets billed like it was a tag read, and if they can't read your plate then they're not going to be able to track you down to pay the toll anyway (they'll go after some other poor sod if the OCR is wrong).
Quote from: lordsutch on July 19, 2016, 04:12:40 PM(The one exception is active tags, like FasTrak. It beeps when it is read by an ORT gantry, and the pattern is supposed to mean something. But even then they say don't stop if it doesn't beep.)
I hadn't heard about FasTrak's in-car solution. It sounds nice, but it wouldn't work for a deaf person and I don't know that a light would be a suitable supplemental solution since that would mean mounting the transponder where it can actually be seen by the driver (and thus occludes some of the viewing area through the windshield).
Quote from: lordsutch on July 19, 2016, 04:12:40 PMAt least on all the toll systems I've used, every tag read shows up within a day at most in the online system--usually within a few minutes, unless inter-agency tolling is involved. As for blown reads, that's why you register your license plate with them; if they find it in the system, it gets billed like it was a tag read, and if they can't read your plate then they're not going to be able to track you down to pay the toll anyway (they'll go after some other poor sod if the OCR is wrong).
This description matches how the Illinois Tollway works. With KTA it is more bare-bones. Toll plaza transit history is available online only as part of the monthly statement, and there is no ability to register a vehicle to permit video tolling.
From a toll payer's perspective these are minor concerns as long as blown reads are administratively forgiven and unpaid tolls do not interfere with vehicle immatriculation. In Kansas the latter will soon no longer apply since a new law (which entered in force at the start of this month) allows KTA to block registration renewal for unpaid tolls in excess of $100.
http://www.kslegislature.org/li/b2015_16/measures/documents/sb373_enrolled.pdf
The law is unclear as to whether "turnpike project" means a toll road only in Kansas, or includes toll roads in other states. It also grants KTA rulemaking authority but is less than clear as to the scope. My fear is that this will allow states with dysfunctional and one-sided toll collection regimes, such as Texas, to hold Kansas drivers hostage. Most of the video tolling horror stories I have heard (such as misidentification of license plate issuing state) have come from Texas.
I've been that way three times. When heading westbound on I-44 I always get off at MO 43 (Exit 4 I think) and head south to US 60. Then I take US 60 west to Vinita where it hooks up to OK 66. It's not a bad toll free route. The speed limit is 65 on those routes in rural areas of course. I've always taken OK 66 all the way to OKC. Obviously you wouldn't be traveling near that far west.
A few notes.
1) In Seneca, MO take Alt US 60. It's a shortcut to westbound US 60.
2) When you get to US 59 there is a cloverleaf. Take the second right to stay on US 60 westbound. If you go straight you will end up on the tollway.
3) In Vinita follow OK 66 to US 69.
Quote from: US 41 on July 19, 2016, 09:38:35 PM
I've been that way three times. When heading westbound on I-44 I always get off at MO 43 (Exit 4 I think) and head south to US 60. Then I take US 60 west to Vinita where it hooks up to OK 66. It's not a bad toll free route. The speed limit is 65 on those routes in rural areas of course. I've always taken OK 66 all the way to OKC. Obviously you wouldn't be traveling near that far west.
A few notes.
1) In Seneca, MO take Alt US 60. It's a shortcut to westbound US 60.
2) When you get to US 59 there is a cloverleaf. Take the second right to stay on US 60 westbound. If you go straight you will end up on the tollway.
3) In Vinita follow OK 66 to US 69.
I've done this same route. It's also nice, to me, to get off the freeways and explore the open middle of the country. East coast people don't seem to realize how fast roads move out west. 65mph with limited stops or slow downs and very little traffic.
Quote from: US 41 on July 19, 2016, 09:38:35 PM
I've been that way three times. When heading westbound on I-44 I always get off at MO 43 (Exit 4 I think) and head south to US 60. Then I take US 60 west to Vinita where it hooks up to OK 66. It's not a bad toll free route. The speed limit is 65 on those routes in rural areas of course. I've always taken OK 66 all the way to OKC. Obviously you wouldn't be traveling near that far west.
A few notes.
1) In Seneca, MO take Alt US 60. It's a shortcut to westbound US 60.
2) When you get to US 59 there is a cloverleaf. Take the second right to stay on US 60 westbound. If you go straight you will end up on the tollway.
3) In Vinita follow OK 66 to US 69.
So if one was to travel the aforementioned route this is the best way to "shunpike?"
Yes. Here's the link if you need a visual. https://goo.gl/maps/5cQ6HTCcX1B2
Quote from: US 41 on July 19, 2016, 09:38:35 PM
I've been that way three times. When heading westbound on I-44 I always get off at MO 43 (Exit 4 I think) and head south to US 60. Then I take US 60 west to Vinita where it hooks up to OK 66. It's not a bad toll free route. The speed limit is 65 on those routes in rural areas of course. I've always taken OK 66 all the way to OKC. Obviously you wouldn't be traveling near that far west.
A few notes.
1) In Seneca, MO take Alt US 60. It's a shortcut to westbound US 60.
2) When you get to US 59 there is a cloverleaf. Take the second right to stay on US 60 westbound. If you go straight you will end up on the tollway.
3) In Vinita follow OK 66 to US 69.
BUSINESS 60 at Seneca. There is no Alt 60
Quote from: Sykotyk on June 13, 2013, 12:41:44 AM
Quote from: leroys73 on June 12, 2013, 10:05:04 PM
And Texas has 85mph on the toll road around Austin south. The toll authority has all but said the reason was for marketing. They still are having trouble getting enough traffic on it.
And they're still trying desperately to get trucks to take it by charging the 2-axle rate. The biggest issue for most trucks is that since most of the road is transponder/by-mail only, most won't take it because of how their company would handle the bill.
They are never going to market a toll road from word of mouth. The GPS eliminated that as who needs to be informed when you can enter an address in your phone or GPS device.
I work at a toll plaza and believe me, most people are unaware that either toll roads exist or they did not know this one they are on was going to be on the way to wherever they are going. Plus if it ain't on twiiter or FB, and the news is not from a member of your own clique, then you won't hear it. Even if its something you see on the way to work, most minds consider you to be just on the road to get to work, and that looking at even homeless man on the side of the road is considered looking too far now.
Our modern world, with access to unlimited information, we are so uninformed.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 20, 2016, 09:51:37 AM
I work at a toll plaza and believe me, most people are unaware that either toll roads exist or they did not know this one they are on was going to be on the way to wherever they are going. Plus if it ain't on twiiter or FB, and the news is not from a member of your own clique, then you won't hear it. Even if its something you see on the way to work, most minds consider you to be just on the road to get to work, and that looking at even homeless man on the side of the road is considered looking too far now.
Our modern world, with access to unlimited information, we are so uninformed.
This has got to be the one example where it's on the user and not the technology. Virtually every consumer GPS unit and app has a setting to avoid toll roads. Shunpiking has never been easier.
Quote from: rte66man on July 22, 2016, 05:47:34 PMRoy Turner was the governor the Tulsa to OKC pike was named for.
Yup. Roy J. Turner, the J. standing for Joseph.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 23, 2016, 12:09:05 AM
Quote from: rte66man on July 22, 2016, 05:47:34 PMRoy Turner was the governor the Tulsa to OKC pike was named for.
Yup. Roy J. Turner, the J. standing for Joseph.
From ODOT:
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8603/28417515762_292f3871c3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Kiacoj)
Gov. Roy Turner cuts the ribbon to officially open the Turner Turnpike.