WBAL TV: Police search for 2nd motorcyclist in fatal I-95 crash -
Bikers were driving recklessly when collision happened, police say (http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/Police-search-for-2nd-motorcyclist-in-fatal-I-95-crash/-/10131532/19703124/-/69r50p/-/index.html)
QuoteMaryland Transportation Authority police are looking for the public's help in finding a motorcyclist wanted for questioning in connection with the fatal crash of another biker.
QuoteWitnesses told police that two sports bike riders were driving recklessly by speeding, racing each other and doing wheelies on northbound Interstate 95 just north of the Interstate 895 interchange during rush hour on Wednesday afternoon when one of them collided with a car and went over the top of it.
For a while now, I've wanted to change the "Start seeing motorcycles" slogan to "Start seeing motorcycles do stupid shit".
Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2013, 08:57:49 PM
For a while now, I've wanted to change the "Start seeing motorcycles" slogan to "Start seeing motorcycles do stupid shit".
I have no problem with most motorcycles.
But crotch rockets, combined with Maryland's lenient and leniently-enforced reckless driving laws, are a
bad combination. Curiously, I rarely see crotch rockets in Virginia engaging in this sort of behavior, probably because the reckless driving laws in the Commonwealth are enforced, and have some teeth (including a real threat of jail time).
Unfortunately, the longtime chair of the Judiciary Committee of the Maryland House of Delegates (http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/06hse/html/com/05jud.html) represents drunk and reckless drivers in his law practice when the legislature is not in session, and I believe he represents them more than he does his own constituents in Annapolis.
I see a fair amount of reckless crotch rocket operation on Maryland's highways, including about 30% to 40% have a Virginia registration plate displayed.
I'll rocket your crotch.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 15, 2013, 09:00:07 PMMaryland's lenient and leniently-enforced reckless driving laws
can't get money out of a dead man.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 15, 2013, 09:16:02 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 15, 2013, 09:00:07 PMMaryland's lenient and leniently-enforced reckless driving laws
can't get money out of a dead man.
Agreed.
But taking his corpse to the state's Office of the Chief Medical Examiner and then conducting an autopsy, along with the expense involved in investigating a fatal crash, even one involving a crotch rocket, consumes significant amounts of taxpayer dollars that would be better spent on other activities.
And then there's the highway traffic congestion that usually results when a fatal crash has to be reconstructed.
Arresting and jailing reckless drivers upon conviction for reckless driving would reduce it to some extent.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 15, 2013, 09:38:11 PM
Agreed.
But taking his corpse to the state's Office of the Chief Medical Examiner and then conducting an autopsy, along with the expense involved in investigating a fatal crash, even one involving a crotch rocket, consumes significant amounts of taxpayer dollars that would be better spent on other activities.
And then there's the highway traffic congestion that usually results when a fatal crash has to be reconstructed.
Arresting and jailing reckless drivers upon conviction for reckless driving would reduce it to some extent.
yeah, but that takes effort. writing a speeding ticket is easy.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 15, 2013, 09:40:29 PM
yeah, but that takes effort. writing a speeding ticket is easy.
Crotch rockets pretty easily get away from any Ford Crown Victoria, even with the Police Interceptor package - all of the ones on the highways around here have the 4.6L V8 motor, usually no match for a Hayabusa, though the MSP chased two of them up I-95 from the D.C. suburbs a few years ago, and through the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel (I-895), where both of them were fatally injured on the sharp off-ramps (most of the I-895 interchanges are decidedly pre-Interstate in terms of design).
The fleeing riders were two brothers, and one of them was riding a stolen crotch rocket.
I don't know if the new Chevy (really a Holden with LHD) Caprice PPVs will do any better in terms of top-end speed needed for freeway pursuits of crotch rockets.
do the Sarah Palin thing and shoot 'em from a helicopter.
Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2013, 09:35:32 PM
Quote from: NE2 on April 15, 2013, 09:03:31 PM
I'll rocket your crotch.
You're so vain.
you probably think this post is about you ;-)
But seriously folks.....I immediatley thought about someone dying on a cr when I read the thread title, anyone else?
All I know is whenever I read the title of this thread, I giggle somewhere between "up" and "crotch" and can't finish.
Quote from: Steve on April 15, 2013, 11:02:00 PM
All I know is whenever I read the title of this thread, I giggle somewhere between "up" and "crotch" and can't finish.
I can assure you it was not intentional, but thanks for the kind comment!
Looked at thread title.
Thought "WTF?"
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 15, 2013, 09:54:41 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 15, 2013, 09:40:29 PM
yeah, but that takes effort. writing a speeding ticket is easy.
Crotch rockets pretty easily get away from any Ford Crown Victoria, even with the Police Interceptor package - all of the ones on the highways around here have the 4.6L V8 motor, usually no match for a Hayabusa, though the MSP chased two of them up I-95 from the D.C. suburbs a few years ago, and through the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel (I-895), where both of them were fatally injured on the sharp off-ramps (most of the I-895 interchanges are decidedly pre-Interstate in terms of design).
The fleeing riders were two brothers, and one of them was riding a stolen crotch rocket.
I don't know if the new Chevy (really a Holden with LHD) Caprice PPVs will do any better in terms of top-end speed needed for freeway pursuits of crotch rockets.
They may out run a Crown Vic, but they can't out run a Motorola.
Quote from: Brandon on April 16, 2013, 12:13:30 PM
They may out run a Crown Vic, but they can't out run a Motorola.
There's not usually enough of the Crown Vics with Motorolas on the road when needed for a crotch rocket pursuit.
And the crotch rocket riders know that they can safely flee to the District of Columbia. There are not many freeways in D.C., but it's a perfect place for them to go to avoid Maryland law enforcement.
The city municipal cops will not engage in high-speed chases (and most of them don't want to engage in traffic law enforcement), Maryland cops will not pursue them on traffic charges into D.C., and two of their favored crotch rocket routes for reckless operation are U.S. 50 east of D.C. (a freeway from east of the Bay Bridge into D.C.), and the Baltimore-Washington Parkway ("secret" Md. 295).
what is a Motorola? if it's a radar detector, how will that help?
"yeap, he's sure goin' fast."
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 16, 2013, 12:49:13 PM
what is a Motorola? if it's a radar detector, how will that help?
"yeap, he's sure goin' fast."
A radio. They radio ahead and can trap the guy down the road.
The first police radios were Motorolas, hence my comment.
For what it's worth, the "guys on crotch rockets" are most likely what we bikers refer to as "squids". They aren't looked well upon in our community either. I ride a 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 500R, a sport bike, but not one I'd drag my knees with, not that I want to anyway.
Quote from: sdmichael on April 16, 2013, 01:09:58 PMbut not one I'd drag my knees with, not that I want to anyway.
not even on CA-89 coming up the pass?
Don't State police/highway patrol units also have motorcycle patrols? Those can be used to catch up to the so-called crotch-rocket riders until a police car can be dispatched (to haul them away).
True story: while heading north along I-295 in NJ several years ago, I saw
four NJ State Police motorcycles surrounding a driver and his crotch-rocket in the shoulder.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 15, 2013, 09:54:41 PMCrotch rockets pretty easily get away from any Ford Crown Victoria, even with the Police Interceptor package - all of the ones on the highways around here have the 4.6L V8 motor, usually no match for a Hayabusa, though the MSP chased two of them up I-95 from the D.C. suburbs a few years ago, and through the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel (I-895), where both of them were fatally injured on the sharp off-ramps (most of the I-895 interchanges are decidedly pre-Interstate in terms of design).
The fleeing riders were two brothers, and one of them was riding a stolen crotch rocket.
I don't know if the new Chevy (really a Holden with LHD) Caprice PPVs will do any better in terms of top-end speed needed for freeway pursuits of crotch rockets.
The last time I was driving along I-95 in Maryland, I did see a black 2005-2009 Mustang GT go by with a trooper driving it. The car in question had some lights and an extra antenna mounted on it so it wasn't someone's personal car. It's likely that car's being used to catch some faster vehicles and motorcycles perps.
Although
official police-packaged pony cars have been out of production for a while (Camaro since 2002, Mustang since 1993); some law enforcement agencies have been known to pick some retail models for enforcement/patrol usage... though the practice of using retail cars for such use is mostly discouraged due to such use voiding any warranties.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 17, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
Don't State police/highway patrol units also have motorcycle patrols? Those can be used to catch up to the so-called crotch-rocket riders until a police car can be dispatched (to haul them away).
such a chase is highly discouraged by standard police protocol. police officers have a duty to keep the uninvolved out of harm's way, and not even Mario Andretti can guarantee a safe and successful result of a chase weaving through traffic at two or three times the speed limit.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 17, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
Don't State police/highway patrol units also have motorcycle patrols? Those can be used to catch up to the so-called crotch-rocket riders until a police car can be dispatched (to haul them away).
Maryland and Virginia State Police have a very few motorcycles, and a lot of their time is taken up in ceremonial duties.
Also, I believe that all of them are Harley-Davidsons, which are not going to be able to chase down a crotch rocket.
The right vehicle for crotch rocket pursuit would be a top-end Mustang or Corvette, or a Viper. Those are all expensive vehicles, but I don't think the cops would need more than a few of them to put those squids on notice.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 17, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
The last time I was driving along I-95 in Maryland, I did see a black 2005-2009 Mustang GT go by with a trooper driving it. The car in question had some lights and an extra antenna mounted on it so it wasn't someone's personal car. It's likely that car's being used to catch some faster vehicles and motorcycles perps.
Probably a Barrack "M" (JFK Highway) car. That barrack is like some of the Turnpike troops on longer toll roads in states like New Jersey, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania. It is entirely funded by the Maryland Transportation Authority, since that's the only road that its troopers normally work. MdTA has in the past purchased "hot" cars for MdTA use on the JFK Highway part of I-95 (roughly mile marker 62 through 109).
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 17, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
Although official police-packaged pony cars have been out of production for a while (Camaro since 2002, Mustang since 1993); some law enforcement agencies have been known to pick some retail models for enforcement/patrol usage... though the practice of using retail cars for such use is mostly discouraged due to such use voiding any warranties.
I would think that the auto manufacturers would find it profitable to have law enforcement versions of the Mustang and Camaro - it helps to sell "retail" cars.
Was driving on U.S. 50 today in Prince George's County, Maryland.
Sure enough, I was behind a guy on a Suzuki Hayabusa, who was headed out of the District of Columbia to do a little crotch rocketing on U.S. 50 east of D.C.
No tag on the bike, though he had what looked like a very expensive jacket, embroidered with Hayabusa and some Japanese characters on the back, and a helmet that was styled after those used by the Nazi German SS prior to and during World War II.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2013, 09:35:15 PM
The right vehicle for crotch rocket pursuit would be a top-end Mustang or Corvette, or a Viper. Those are all expensive vehicles, but I don't think the cops would need more than a few of them to put those squids on notice.
I think a typical "crotch rocket" motorcycle can leave even those cars in the dust.
a Viper goes 0-100mph in about 7.5 seconds. a Hayabusa is 5.6 seconds.
a police motorcycle of similar performance would be too dangerous to the uninvolved public. a helicopter would do the job; I wonder at what frequency of "crotch rocketeering" does it become cost-effective to have such a bird in the air, or on short notice, at all times.
or, just catch
one and slap him with a "300 days of salary" fine, Switzerland style. and put him in a pillory. there's your deterrent.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 17, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2013, 09:35:15 PM
The right vehicle for crotch rocket pursuit would be a top-end Mustang or Corvette, or a Viper. Those are all expensive vehicles, but I don't think the cops would need more than a few of them to put those squids on notice.
I think a typical "crotch rocket" motorcycle can leave even those cars in the dust.
I have no reason to dispute that - but - those cars are much faster than a standard-issue Crown Vic with the 4.6L V8. And there may be a maximum that the crotch rocketers don't want to exceed, if they wish to live (speeds into the triple digits (MPH) tend to be associated with fatal wrecks).
Maryland is taking delivery of a large order of "Chevrolet" (really LHD Holdens) Caprice PPVs, though I don't have any idea how those compare to the Fords they are replacing.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 17, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
a Viper goes 0-100mph in about 7.5 seconds. a Hayabusa is 5.6 seconds.
You know better than I. Though I have always liked the "look" of the Vipers, and for freeway pursuit, isn't the top-end speed more important?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 17, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
a police motorcycle of similar performance would be too dangerous to the uninvolved public.
Apparently the Oklahoma Highway Patrol has at least a few Hayabusas in their fleet. Consider this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb4%2FBusayukon.jpg%2F220px-Busayukon.jpg&hash=bb086feb7ba536c72e8948e1c96bfc7cb15da268)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 17, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
a helicopter would do the job; I wonder at what frequency of "crotch rocketeering" does it become cost-effective to have such a bird in the air, or on short notice, at all times.
The Maryland State Police helicopters are
generally not used for traffic enforcement - one of their primary missions is medevac, along with search and rescue.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 17, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
or, just catch one and slap him with a "300 days of salary" fine, Switzerland style. and put him in a pillory. there's your deterrent.
Finland and Sweden have similar systems of fines - though I also get the impression that many of the D.C.-area crotch rocket enthusiasts are not always gainfully employed.
Seizure and destruction of the motorcycle would probably be a better deterrent.
The Chargers and Caprices are faster than the Crown Victorias, but not by that much.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 12:25:24 PM
I have no reason to dispute that - but - those cars are much faster than a standard-issue Crown Vic with the 4.6L V8. And there may be a maximum that the crotch rocketers don't want to exceed, if they wish to live (speeds into the triple digits (MPH) tend to be associated with fatal wrecks).
every rocketeer has his own internal maximum. I don't know what percentage think 130 is fun, versus what percentage think 170 is fun... but, that said, I think that once you have a cop behind you; if you've already elected to run, you're gonna speed up because you just want to get away.
QuoteYou know better than I. Though I have always liked the "look" of the Vipers, and for freeway pursuit, isn't the top-end speed more important?
I have no idea what a Viper goes up to, as they are governed at 155mph. probably someone has tested an ungoverned one, which is ostensibly what the police would use, but I could not find the result. the Hayabusa is apparently governed at 186, but maybe 188 or 194 (sources vary).
again, at this speed, get a damn helicopter.
QuoteThe Maryland State Police helicopters are generally not used for traffic enforcement - one of their primary missions is medevac, along with search and rescue.
got it... by the time the bird's in the air, ground may very well have lost him. an interesting loophole: outrun the cops. having no license plate on the rear is helpful, too.
QuoteSeizure and destruction of the motorcycle would probably be a better deterrent.
or convert it into an Oklahoma-style police bike. now that would be a deterrent: "go ahead! buy us a new vehicle!"
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 12:25:24 PM
Finland and Sweden have similar systems of fines
as a coincidence - the Swiss fine was levied on a Swedish citizen. at least, I believe it is a coincidence, as opposed to Switzerland deciding "eh, for this case, we'll use Swedish law, even though the crime took place on Swiss territory."
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2013, 09:41:46 PMI would think that the auto manufacturers would find it profitable to have law enforcement versions of the Mustang and Camaro - it helps to sell "retail" cars.
The reasoning behind the demise of
official police-packaged pony cars was due to the improved performance of standard police vehicles (sedans) during the 1990s. A mid-90s Caprice police-packaged vehicle could obtain a top speed of 140 mph and a 1996 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor (aka CVPI) topped 135 mph at the Michigan State Police test track. In contrast, no official police packaged sedan made from 1979 through 1989 could top 120 mph.
Most law enforcement agencies wanted the speed of a pony car (or close to one) but the room of a sedan (to transport apprehended prisoners if warranted). And many of them balked over the notion (& costs) of dispatching 2 vehicles (a pony car to catch the suspects & a sedan to transport them to the station) when 1 vehicle that could do both functions was handled previously... and subsequently.
Pony car-based police vehicles came about in the late 70s/early 80s when then-newly placed emissions and fuel economy laws took a bite into overall vehicle performance and restricted engine choices among larger sedans (a choice vehicle for most police departments).
It took about a decade, along w/an improving economy/stable gas prices/curbed regulations, for automakers to develop new technologies to improve engine performance. Once that happened (late 80s/early 90s), the demand for police pony cars basically dried up.
Quote from: bugo on April 18, 2013, 12:31:43 PM
The Chargers and Caprices are faster than the Crown Victorias, but not by that much.
I don't know about the Caprice PPV, but the police-packaged Charger (V8 model) can top 150 mph outdoing the previous fastest police-packaged Mopar sedan, the 1969 Dodge Polara (equipped w/the 440 Magnum that topped 149).
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 18, 2013, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2013, 09:41:46 PMI would think that the auto manufacturers would find it profitable to have law enforcement versions of the Mustang and Camaro - it helps to sell "retail" cars.
The reasoning behind the demise of official police-packaged pony cars was due to the improved performance of standard police vehicles (sedans) during the 1990s. A mid-90s Caprice police-packaged vehicle could obtain a top speed of 140 mph and a 1996 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor (aka CVPI) topped 135 mph at the Michigan State Police test track. In contrast, no official police packaged sedan made from 1979 through 1989 could top 120 mph.
Most law enforcement agencies wanted the speed of a pony car (or close to one) but the room of a sedan (to transport apprehended prisoners if warranted). And many of them balked over the notion (& costs) of dispatching 2 vehicles (a pony car to catch the suspects & a sedan to transport them to the station) when 1 vehicle that could do both functions was handled previously... and subsequently.
Pony car-based police vehicles came about in the late 70s/early 80s when then-newly placed emissions and fuel economy laws took a bite into overall vehicle performance and restricted engine choices among larger sedans (a choice vehicle for most police departments).
It took about a decade, along w/an improving economy/stable gas prices/curbed regulations, for automakers to develop new technologies to improve engine performance. Once that happened (late 80s/early 90s), the demand for police pony cars basically dried up.
Thanks for the detailed discussion. I recall the Ford Mustang GTs that were used by the Florida Highway Patrol, and especially the Mustangs used by the California Highway Patrol. At least some of the CHP Mustangs had
manual transmissions, pretty rare for a law enforcement car.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 18, 2013, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: bugo on April 18, 2013, 12:31:43 PM
The Chargers and Caprices are faster than the Crown Victorias, but not by that much.
I don't know about the Caprice PPV, but the police-packaged Charger (V8 model) can top 150 mph outdoing the previous fastest police-packaged Mopar sedan, the 1969 Dodge Polara (equipped w/the 440 Magnum that topped 149).
In Maryland, the State Police (for some reason) preferred Plymouth over Dodge, and the fastest trooper car the MSP ever had was a 1969 Plymouth Fury, presumably with that 440 Magnum under the hood. An MSP old-timer told me once that the MSP Furys were capable of better than 150 MPH, though I obviously have never confirmed that myself.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 16, 2013, 01:22:39 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on April 16, 2013, 01:09:58 PMbut not one I'd drag my knees with, not that I want to anyway.
not even on CA-89 coming up the pass?
No need to drag knees unless you want to go really fast in a curve, to which there is little point unless you're actually racing.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 12:25:24 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 17, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
a Viper goes 0-100mph in about 7.5 seconds. a Hayabusa is 5.6 seconds.
You know better than I. Though I have always liked the "look" of the Vipers, and for freeway pursuit, isn't the top-end speed more important?
Indeed. My father was once cycling to work, and found himself next to a Viper at a red light. This was downtown Wichita, on Kellogg underneath the highway. The driver and my dad made eye contact and challenged each other to a race. The race lasted a total of one block, to the next red light. My dad won. By any other reasoning than what you stated above, a bicycle would be better at chasing speeders than a Viper.
FWIW, I once saw a car pulled over by a red Ford Mustang on I-57 in Illinois; this would have been between 2006 and 2008. Before that, if I was speeding more above the speed limit than I felt comfortable being clocked at, I wouldn't bother slowing down for an oncoming vehcile if I could "tell" by looking at it that it wasn't a police car. After that, I realized I could always tell if a vehicle was or wasn't a police car until it was right on top of me.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 06:12:02 PMIn Maryland, the State Police (for some reason) preferred Plymouth over Dodge, and the fastest trooper car the MSP ever had was a 1969 Plymouth Fury, presumably with that 440 Magnum under the hood. An MSP old-timer told me once that the MSP Furys were capable of better than 150 MPH, though I obviously have never confirmed that myself.
I'm sure the Furys (which were basically Polaras with a slightly shorter wheelbase) w/the 440s got similar top speed ratings. I only mentioned the Dodge Polara because the one reference I read was from CHiP which, prior to 1975, didn't even consider using a vehicle that had a wheelbase shorter than 122" nor a curb weight
less than 3800 lbs for its Enforcement Class vehicle.
Such requirements were one reason why police-packaged models weren't restricted to
just the basic Fords, Chevys & Plymouths back then. In addition to Dodge; Buick, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and even Mercury offered police packages for their full-size vehicles. Many state police agencies from the late 60s through the late 70s used the '69-'74 Mercury Monterrey and the '75-'78 base Marquis w/its 124" wheelbase as their primary patrol cars.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2013, 12:37:32 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 12:25:24 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 17, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
a Viper goes 0-100mph in about 7.5 seconds. a Hayabusa is 5.6 seconds.
You know better than I. Though I have always liked the "look" of the Vipers, and for freeway pursuit, isn't the top-end speed more important?
Indeed. My father was once cycling to work, and found himself next to a Viper at a red light. This was downtown Wichita, on Kellogg underneath the highway. The driver and my dad made eye contact and challenged each other to a race. The race lasted a total of one block, to the next red light. My dad won. By any other reasoning than what you stated above, a bicycle would be better at chasing speeders than a Viper.
Note that I added the qualifying word
freeway in front of pursuit.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2013, 12:37:32 PM
FWIW, I once saw a car pulled over by a red Ford Mustang on I-57 in Illinois; this would have been between 2006 and 2008. Before that, if I was speeding more above the speed limit than I felt comfortable being clocked at, I wouldn't bother slowing down for an oncoming vehcile if I could "tell" by looking at it that it wasn't a police car. After that, I realized I could always tell if a vehicle was or wasn't a police car until it was right on top of me.
A former colleague got stopped by a Florida trooper on I-95 between Daytona Beach and Jacksonville quite a few years ago. The trooper in the (marked) FHP car had measured his speed from the other direction, then came across the median and chased him down.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 22, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 06:12:02 PMIn Maryland, the State Police (for some reason) preferred Plymouth over Dodge, and the fastest trooper car the MSP ever had was a 1969 Plymouth Fury, presumably with that 440 Magnum under the hood. An MSP old-timer told me once that the MSP Furys were capable of better than 150 MPH, though I obviously have never confirmed that myself.
I'm sure the Furys (which were basically Polaras with a slightly shorter wheelbase) w/the 440s got similar top speed ratings. I only mentioned the Dodge Polara because the one reference I read was from CHiP which, prior to 1975, didn't even consider using a vehicle that had a wheelbase shorter than 122" nor a curb weight less than 3800 lbs for its Enforcement Class vehicle.
Wonder if that explains why the CHP seemed to liked Dodge instead of Plymouth?
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 22, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
Such requirements were one reason why police-packaged models weren't restricted to just the basic Fords, Chevys & Plymouths back then. In addition to Dodge; Buick, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and even Mercury offered police packages for their full-size vehicles. Many state police agencies from the late 60s through the late 70s used the '69-'74 Mercury Monterrey and the '75-'78 base Marquis w/its 124" wheelbase as their primary patrol cars.
Around Maryland, Virginia and D.C., GM police cars (except for Chevrolet) were pretty rare. Pontiac sold some in mid-to-late 1970's, but otherwise, it was usually Ford, Plymouth and Chevy. Prince George's County, Maryland had a large number of Chevy Nova police cars in the 1970's.
The United States Park Police had 1974 AMC Matador police cars for a while, and the U.S. Secret Service had a preference for many of its plainclothes agents in the D.C. area. to ride around in Mercury Colony Park station wagons.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 04:33:32 PM
Note that I added the qualifying word freeway in front of pursuit.
Oh, yes, I was actually agreeing with you. My grammar was just a bit wonky.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 04:33:32 PM
A former colleague got stopped by a Florida trooper on I-95 between Daytona Beach and Jacksonville quite a few years ago. The trooper in the (marked) FHP car had measured his speed from the other direction, then came across the median and chased him down.
I've had that happen to me, on the turnpike coming back from Tulsa to Wichita. The speed limit is 75, he clocked me at 81 and flipped a U across the grass median. Only gave me a warning, though. I thought for sure I'd have a ticket.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2013, 10:32:35 PM
I've had that happen to me, on the turnpike coming back from Tulsa to Wichita. The speed limit is 75, he clocked me at 81 and flipped a U across the grass median. Only gave me a warning, though. I thought for sure I'd have a ticket.
I have seen this happen myself several times on the Ohio Turnpike, though less since much of the Pike is now three lanes each way with a Jersey barrier in the middle (it used to be a well-maintained grassy median, much of it sloped like a gentle "V" for drainage and perhaps to prevent head-on wrecks across that median).
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2013, 10:32:35 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 04:33:32 PM
Note that I added the qualifying word freeway in front of pursuit.
Oh, yes, I was actually agreeing with you. My grammar was just a bit wonky.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 04:33:32 PM
A former colleague got stopped by a Florida trooper on I-95 between Daytona Beach and Jacksonville quite a few years ago. The trooper in the (marked) FHP car had measured his speed from the other direction, then came across the median and chased him down.
I've had that happen to me, on the turnpike coming back from Tulsa to Wichita. The speed limit is 75, he clocked me at 81 and flipped a U across the grass median. Only gave me a warning, though. I thought for sure I'd have a ticket.
I saw that in Nebraska on I-80 as well. Personally, I think it should be illegal for the cop to do with his scout car. It is unpredictable, and what if he hits something in the median like a rock or a culvert? Or if it's wet and muddy and the cop gets the scout car stuck? I guess the taxpayers are on the hook for the damage he did to his scout car and the tow required to get him out.
I favor blocking access to the median and limiting the number of crossovers to prevent this sort of dangerous behavior.
Quote from: Brandon on April 23, 2013, 10:00:23 AM
I saw that in Nebraska on I-80 as well. Personally, I think it should be illegal for the cop to do with his scout car. It is unpredictable, and what if he hits something in the median like a rock or a culvert? Or if it's wet and muddy and the cop gets the scout car stuck? I guess the taxpayers are on the hook for the damage he did to his scout car and the tow required to get him out.
I favor blocking access to the median and limiting the number of crossovers to prevent this sort of dangerous behavior.
This happens in Kentucky all the time. Meet a cop on a four-lane divided highway and he clocks you going over the speed limit, and he whips through the grass median and pulls over the speeder. Several years ago a young Kentucky Vehicle Enforcement officer got killed doing this. He was eastbound on I-64 near Exit 65 and met a speeding passenger vehicle. When he whipped through the median, he lost control and crashed into a rock cut for the westbound lanes.
I like Jersey barriers or cable barriers in the median. I tend to drive a little faster if I know there's a lesser chance of being pulled over by a cop that I meet.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 23, 2013, 10:23:37 AM
I like Jersey barriers or cable barriers in the median. I tend to drive a little faster if I know there's a lesser chance of being pulled over by a cop that I meet.
Glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. That's one thing I like about the recent addition of cable median barriers on the NJDOT freeways.
Of course, on the Turnpike, you still have State Troopers flying up the left lane at 90 mph and when the left lane of the truck lanes is too slow, he whips into the car lanes through the "Z" openings and does the same thing again.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 04:50:59 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 22, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2013, 06:12:02 PMIn Maryland, the State Police (for some reason) preferred Plymouth over Dodge, and the fastest trooper car the MSP ever had was a 1969 Plymouth Fury, presumably with that 440 Magnum under the hood. An MSP old-timer told me once that the MSP Furys were capable of better than 150 MPH, though I obviously have never confirmed that myself.
I'm sure the Furys (which were basically Polaras with a slightly shorter wheelbase) w/the 440s got similar top speed ratings. I only mentioned the Dodge Polara because the one reference I read was from CHiP which, prior to 1975, didn't even consider using a vehicle that had a wheelbase shorter than 122" nor a curb weight less than 3800 lbs for its Enforcement Class vehicle.
Wonder if that explains why the CHP seemed to liked Dodge instead of Plymouth?
Correct. That's exactly why CHiP drove Polaras/Monacos rather than Furys thorugh 1974. In 1970, they chose the 124" wheelbased Mercury Monterrey over the 121" wheelbased Ford Custom as their Enforcement Class vehicle. That was the one year they deviated from Dodges during the 70s.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 04:50:59 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 22, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
Such requirements were one reason why police-packaged models weren't restricted to just the basic Fords, Chevys & Plymouths back then. In addition to Dodge; Buick, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and even Mercury offered police packages for their full-size vehicles. Many state police agencies from the late 60s through the late 70s used the '69-'74 Mercury Monterrey and the '75-'78 base Marquis w/its 124" wheelbase as their primary patrol cars.
Around Maryland, Virginia and D.C., GM police cars (except for Chevrolet) were pretty rare. Pontiac sold some in mid-to-late 1970's, but otherwise, it was usually Ford, Plymouth and Chevy. Prince George's County, Maryland had a large number of Chevy Nova police cars in the 1970's.
To be clear, not
all states had a minimum wheelbase requirement at the time. CHiP was just one rather large agency that did. Many states and local law enforcement agencies indeed went with just Fords, Chevys & Plymouths. Two other state police agencies that used Buick LeSabres and Mercury Monterreys/Marquis' (base model), back then, were New Jersey & Missouri.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 04:50:59 PM
The United States Park Police had 1974 AMC Matador police cars for a while, and the U.S. Secret Service had a preference for many of its plainclothes agents in the D.C. area. to ride around in Mercury Colony Park station wagons.
Do keep in mind that back in the 70s; many mid-size cars were almost as large as some full-size cars of the 1960s. As a result, mid-size police-packaged cars started to become fairly popular even before the first oil/gas price shock of 1973. When the 2nd wave of downsizing hit in the 1980s (w/mid-sizes converting to FWD); most true police pursuit packages were once again restricted to full-size sedans.
If a Colony Park wagon (exterior woodgrain and all) was used for the above, chances are it was a retail model and not a police package. Police-packaged wagons, typically used for K-9 transport, were of the more plainer, base models. In Mercury's case, the police packaged wagon was restricted to the more basic Monterrey & Marquis (no woodgrain) wagons.
FYI, most of my police vehicle knowledge came from the various police vehicle publications by Corporal Edwin Sanow like the one pictured below. A good read and a must-have for either police-vehicle and full-size car enthusiasts IMHO.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51GT49DfFVL.jpg&hash=3708a490369a90dffe9a4fe48855455fc468dda6)
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2013, 12:37:32 PMFWIW, I once saw a car pulled over by a red Ford Mustang on I-57 in Illinois; this would have been between 2006 and 2008. Before that, if I was speeding more above the speed limit than I felt comfortable being clocked at, I wouldn't bother slowing down for an oncoming vehcile if I could "tell" by looking at it that it wasn't a police car. After that, I realized I could always tell if a vehicle was or wasn't a police car until it was right on top of me.
As stated earlier, although there hasn't been an
official police-packaged Mustang available after 1993 doesn't necessarily mean that state police won't use a newer
retail model for pursuit duties, warranties be damned.
Although the 2005-2010 Mustang GTs are equipped with the same sized 4.6L engine as the fullsize CVPI, the overall vehicle's lighter and the engine's more beefed up (300 hp vs. 250 hp on the CVPI); thereby yielding all-round better performance. The faster performance coupled with the fact that most people
assume that police normally use sedans; gives pony cars a sense of stealth.
That's why it's usually a good idea to know & keep tabs on the differences between an 'official' license plate (typically worn on police vehicles, though not always) vs. a standard-issue plate... just in case a non-ordinary vehicle is used for enforcement. :nod:
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 24, 2013, 08:31:19 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2013, 12:37:32 PMFWIW, I once saw a car pulled over by a red Ford Mustang on I-57 in Illinois; this would have been between 2006 and 2008. Before that, if I was speeding more above the speed limit than I felt comfortable being clocked at, I wouldn't bother slowing down for an oncoming vehcile if I could "tell" by looking at it that it wasn't a police car. After that, I realized I could always tell if a vehicle was or wasn't a police car until it was right on top of me.
As stated earlier, although there hasn't been an official police-packaged Mustang available after 1993 doesn't necessarily mean that state police won't use a newer retail model for pursuit duties, warranties be damned.
Although the 2005-2010 Mustang GTs are equipped with the same sized 4.6L engine as the fullsize CVPI, the overall vehicle's lighter and the engine's more beefed up (300 hp vs. 250 hp on the CVPI); thereby yielding all-round better performance. The faster performance coupled with the fact that most people assume that police normally use sedans; gives pony cars a sense of stealth.
Maryland State Police have never had Mustangs as far as I know. They had a few Chevy Camaros in the previous decade, purchased for them by the MdTA for use primarily on the JFK Highway (I-95 between Baltimore and the Delaware border). The MdTA's own police also had a few, mostly for patrol on I-95 through Baltimore City.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 24, 2013, 08:31:19 AM
That's why it's usually a good idea to know & keep tabs on the differences between an 'official' license plate (typically worn on police vehicles, though not always) vs. a standard-issue plate... just in case a non-ordinary vehicle is used for enforcement. :nod:
Maryland has been inconsistent about this.
Most of the time, the unmarked trooper cars have regular civilian tags. Sometimes they have had the official MSP tags (currently hideously embossed ugly black on orange), and I have seen a few with "SG" (state government) tags, though that is rare.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 24, 2013, 03:54:42 PMMaryland State Police have never had Mustangs as far as I know.
Aren't you contradicting yourself from a few posts back? :)
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 17, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
The last time I was driving along I-95 in Maryland, I did see a black 2005-2009 Mustang GT go by with a trooper driving it. The car in question had some lights and an extra antenna mounted on it so it wasn't someone's personal car. It's likely that car's being used to catch some faster vehicles and motorcycles perps.
Probably a Barrack "M" (JFK Highway) car. That barrack is like some of the Turnpike troops on longer toll roads in states like New Jersey, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania. It is entirely funded by the Maryland Transportation Authority, since that's the only road that its troopers normally work. MdTA has in the past purchased "hot" cars for MdTA use on the JFK Highway part of I-95 (roughly mile marker 62 through 109).
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 24, 2013, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 24, 2013, 03:54:42 PMMaryland State Police have never had Mustangs as far as I know.
Aren't you contradicting yourself from a few posts back? :)
State it this way - I have not personally seen the MSP driving a Ford pony, but I have seen them driving Camaros several times. And when the Mustangs were popular with some other highway patrol-type agencies in the U.S. (Florida and California Highway Patrols), MSP was not interested in such cars.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 24, 2013, 06:43:45 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 24, 2013, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 24, 2013, 03:54:42 PMMaryland State Police have never had Mustangs as far as I know.
Aren't you contradicting yourself from a few posts back? :)
State it this way - I have not personally seen the MSP driving a Ford pony, but I have seen them driving Camaros several times. And when the Mustangs were popular with some other highway patrol-type agencies in the U.S. (Florida and California Highway Patrols), MSP was not interested in such cars.
And I personally
have per my earlier post. The vehicle profile and tri-bar taillights were unmistakable (S197-platformed Mustang). Since it was along I-95 (JFK Highway), it was likely a
Barrack "M" car per your earlier post. And this siting took place within the last 5 years.
Whether this was an experimental (
one-off) order or part of a small fleet (less than 5); I don't know, it may have very well been the former.
IIRC, back when the Police-Packaged Mustang did exist; the Maryland State Police was then known for driving B-bodied Chevys (Impala through '85, Caprice from '86-'90) equipped w/front bucket seats. Most police agencies, back then, simply went with the then-more common straight bench or flight bench seats up front in their full-size sedans.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 25, 2013, 11:27:01 AM
Whether this was an experimental (one-off) order or part of a small fleet (less than 5); I don't know, it may have very well been the former.
It was probably a one-off by the Maryland Transportation Authority, not the MSP. I drive a lot on Maryland freeways (since I live here), but not so much on the JFK Highway, which is likely where the Mustangs were based, at Barrack "M." I
did see the Chevy Camaros that were used along the JFK Highway about 10 years ago.
Wonder if this California Highway Patrol pursuit (which ended in what was apparently a head-on crash in Glendale) involved a crotch rocket? From the look of the tire in the associated video, I suspect it was.
CHP Pursuit Ends Horrifically With Suspect Cyclist Crashing Head-On Into Car (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/04/28/chp-pursuit-of-motorcyclist-ends-horrifically-with-suspect-crashing-head-on-into-car/)
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 29, 2013, 09:59:12 AM
Wonder if this California Highway Patrol pursuit (which ended in what was apparently a head-on crash in Glendale) involved a crotch rocket? From the look of the tire in the associated video, I suspect it was.
CHP Pursuit Ends Horrifically With Suspect Cyclist Crashing Head-On Into Car (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/04/28/chp-pursuit-of-motorcyclist-ends-horrifically-with-suspect-crashing-head-on-into-car/)
Judging from the plastic fairing bits, it was at least a sportbike. The vest or jacket with a patch almost says "squid" so running from the cops may have been something "cool" to do regardless of guilt. Either way, a dumbass move regardless of mode of transport.
A bit late to the police car model discussion, but relevant to the DC metro area: I found out last week that both Prince William and Fairfax each have an undercover Nissan GT-R police car.
Quote from: Takumi on May 05, 2013, 11:38:39 AM
A bit late to the police car model discussion, but relevant to the DC metro area: I found out last week that both Prince William and Fairfax each have an undercover Nissan GT-R police car.
Wow. I have not seen even one of those for police use. Wonder if they were added to the fleet for crotch rocket pursuit purposes?
A crotch rocketer that gets caught in Virginia runs a real risk of jail time.