After digging through my archives, I finally found the sign plans for the 5/170 interchange showing US 6 and not SR-170 heading down the Hollywood Freeway.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scvresources.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F06%2F62-7V13C24_170-5_detail.jpg&hash=b100e40a0622b1e4afa9141421feb0b8eebb1c48)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scvresources.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F06%2F1963-Los_Angeles-us-6.jpg&hash=3ce111bdf7e0185e474ca4f3ff018efb1b7af7fe)
More information on my website - http://www.scvresources.com/highways/la_highways/sr-170/ (http://www.scvresources.com/highways/la_highways/sr-170/)
6 ended at 66, multiplexed with 101, according to your map - suffice to say a lot doesn't make sense, but it's not surprising US 6 ended up truncated in the end.
US 6 was planned to go down the Hollywood Freeway from the Golden State Freeway to the Harbor Freeway. It just never did though it was briefly signed on the Hollywood Freeway SB at the Ventura Freeway. It doesn't make much sense as it only had US 6 on its own from the Golden State to the Ventura.
Quote from: sdmichael on April 22, 2013, 05:29:37 PM
After digging through my archives, I finally found the sign plans for the 5/170 interchange showing US 6 and not SR-170 heading down the Hollywood Freeway.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scvresources.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F06%2F1963-Los_Angeles-us-6.jpg&hash=3ce111bdf7e0185e474ca4f3ff018efb1b7af7fe)
So was the Ventura Freeway between US-101 & I-5/US-99 numbered at this time, since CA-134 was still on the surface streets?
As far as I know, the map isn't accurate in that regard. SR-134 was signed on the Ventura Freeway upon opening. I have personally seen one of the old signs from the Ventura Freeway with two white 134 shields.
I think this plan was unveiled in 1963, one year before the major renumbering. I don't think you can infer anything about the solo U.S. 6 marker on the Hollywood Freeway, other than it was added to the map before the cartographers had a chance to design the appropriate multiple route number shields including a 6/66/101.
EDIT: And by "plan unveiled" I mean printed on a general distribution map.
I should clarify my post. The US 6 shield is on Lankershim Blvd, not the Hollywood Freeway, in the San Fernando Valley. It wasn't built yet. US 6 was indeed signed, albeit briefly, from around Chandler Blvd to the Ventura Freeway on the Hollywood Freeway. I have a photo that shows it. US 6 itself was cut short earlier than some of the other routes. The first segment of the Antelope Valley Freeway was opened on August 23, 1963 and was only signed as SR-14. As such, the plan for US 6 to be signed on the Hollywood is still something of an enigma as it wasn't to fully open until AFTER 1964.
Quote from: sdmichael on April 22, 2013, 07:18:18 PM
US 6 was planned to go down the Hollywood Freeway from the Golden State Freeway to the Harbor Freeway. It just never did though it was briefly signed on the Hollywood Freeway SB at the Ventura Freeway. It doesn't make much sense as it only had US 6 on its own from the Golden State to the Ventura.
I've seen plenty of maps that had US-6 go down the Harbor Freeway, then west on PCH into Long Beach:
http://www.cosmos-monitor.com/ca/map1961/insets/la-vicinity.html
Plus, there's a plaque in downtown Long Beach marking the end of the Grand Army of the Republic highway.
US 6 had always (post-freeway) taken the Harbor Freeway. What is odd is the planned, yet never fully implemented for many reasons, split from US 99 in Arleta to meet its "old" routing at the Four Level Interchange.
Quote from: DTComposer on April 22, 2013, 11:14:49 PM
Plus, there's a plaque in downtown Long Beach marking the end of the Grand Army of the Republic highway.
Say whaaaa? Do I have to go back just for that? (Yes)
I should post photos of it on my US 6 page... only seems fair. It is on Ocean Blvd just east of Long Beach Blvd. I'm not quite sure why it was put there. I suspect it wasn't originally placed there.
Quote from: sdmichael on April 23, 2013, 12:00:54 AM
US 6 had always (post-freeway) taken the Harbor Freeway. What is odd is the planned, yet never fully implemented for many reasons, split from US 99 in Arleta to meet its "old" routing at the Four Level Interchange.
My apologies, I misunderstood what you were saying.
Quote from: Steve on April 23, 2013, 12:23:05 AM
Quote from: DTComposer on April 22, 2013, 11:14:49 PM
Plus, there's a plaque in downtown Long Beach marking the end of the Grand Army of the Republic highway.
Say whaaaa? Do I have to go back just for that? (Yes)
Quote from: sdmichael on April 23, 2013, 01:13:22 AM
I should post photos of it on my US 6 page... only seems fair. It is on Ocean Blvd just east of Long Beach Blvd. I'm not quite sure why it was put there. I suspect it wasn't originally placed there.
It was originally placed at that intersection in front of the old Municipal Auditorium. When that was replaced with the (not nearly as pretty) Performing Arts Center, they re-installed it:
http://goo.gl/maps/SEjyr
Although it's a well over a mile from the historical official end of US 6, I imagine the location, being at the time on the shoreline (most of the land south of Ocean Boulevard is landfill) made a scenic place to mark the end of a coast-to-coast highway.
This site has some good photos, including the plaque:
http://scottymoore.net/longbeach.html
Quote from: sdmichael on April 22, 2013, 10:40:59 PM
I should clarify my post. The US 6 shield is on Lankershim Blvd, not the Hollywood Freeway, in the San Fernando Valley. It wasn't built yet. US 6 was indeed signed, albeit briefly, from around Chandler Blvd to the Ventura Freeway on the Hollywood Freeway. I have a photo that shows it. US 6 itself was cut short earlier than some of the other routes. The first segment of the Antelope Valley Freeway was opened on August 23, 1963 and was only signed as SR-14. As such, the plan for US 6 to be signed on the Hollywood is still something of an enigma as it wasn't to fully open until AFTER 1964.
If the AV Freeway was opened in 1963 and signed as CA-14, wasn't Artesia Blvd. still signed with that number as well? I don't think Artesia got the 91 designation until the next year, along with changes on the other affected routes.
Quote from: sdmichael on April 23, 2013, 01:13:22 AM
I should post photos of it on my US 6 page... only seems fair. It is on Ocean Blvd just east of Long Beach Blvd. I'm not quite sure why it was put there. I suspect it wasn't originally placed there.
Andy has two photos of it on the site (https://www.aaroads.com/california/us-006_ca.html) from when you, he and I checked it out in 2008:
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images006/us-006_grand_army_of_the_republic_plaque_long_beach.jpg) (https://www.aaroads.com/california/images006/us-006_grand_army_of_the_republic_plaque_long_beach.jpg)
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 23, 2013, 05:48:08 AM
If the AV Freeway was opened in 1963 and signed as CA-14, wasn't Artesia Blvd. still signed with that number as well? I don't think Artesia got the 91 designation until the next year, along with changes on the other affected routes.
certain route designations were changed before 1964. I know CA-10 became CA-42 by 1961. CA-14 may have experienced a similar switch, in which case US-91 was likely truncated a year or two early.
10 to 42 was a special case because of the nearness of I-10. It had nothing to do with the 1964 renumbering.
The Caltrans 1963 map shows US 6 and SR 14 in their old locations: http://cahighways.org/maps/1963routes.jpg
PS: as for the plans in the original post, I see 'temp blank panel cover'. So it's possible that US 6 never was signed along the Hollywood alignment.
Quote from: NE2 on April 23, 2013, 03:02:50 PM
I see 'temp blank panel cover'.
which is probably what happened with the Antelope Valley Freeway, now that I think about it. permanent 14 shields, with 6 patched over them temporarily.
at some point I will need to look more closely at those signs to see if there is evidence (bolt holes) of US-6 covers. I have verified that the signs indeed say C-63 on the back.
I've seen 1963 signs with only SR-14 on them on the Antelope Valley Freeway. The TEMP BLANK COVER reference on I-5 was due to the Hollywood Freeway not being built to there yet. Yes, it is all indeed confusing with the number switches. I have photos on my site that do indeed show US 6 being signed on the southern end of the Hollywood Freeway Extension (current SR-170). One of those signs is still up on the freeway, where some greenout had fallen to reveal a WEST banner. It has since been covered up but I have a photo.
Quote from: sdmichael on April 23, 2013, 05:36:18 PM
I've seen 1963 signs with only SR-14 on them on the Antelope Valley Freeway.
and did they have a TEMP US-6 COVER on them?
QuoteI have photos on my site that do indeed show US 6 being signed on the southern end of the Hollywood Freeway Extension (current SR-170).
found it. US-6 actually signed on the Hollywood in 1962. I'll be damned. so at one point this was a continuous routing - 5 to 170 to 101 to 110?
None of the signs on the Antelope Valley Freeway had US 6 on them. I've seen the sign plans and some of the original signs at Sand Canyon Road. As to US 6 being continuous... it remains to be seen. So far, it was signed on the 170 at the south end. Sign plans (though never implemented that way) show it on the northern end of the 170. I will be making a trip to Caltrans D7 and getting some more copies of the sign plans, so I'll see what I can dig up.
Quote from: sdmichael on April 22, 2013, 08:16:35 PMAs far as I know, the map isn't accurate in that regard. SR-134 was signed on the Ventura Freeway upon opening. I have personally seen one of the old signs from the Ventura Freeway with two white 134 shields.
I have a copy of the signing plans for the Ventura Freeway immediately east of the US 101 interchange (title sheet signature date of January 30, 1961) and they do show the SR 134 designation on the signs. The same plans also show US 6 on the Hollywood Freeway, with control points of Hollywood in the southbound direction (US 6 West) and San Fernando in the northbound (US 6 East). These signing plans are available online through the LA DPW Engineering Vault under their reference number D-16576: federal-aid project number U-0102(1)2, (old-style) Caltrans project number 60-7V13C69-FI.
I will have to check that out. I've looked at the LADPW drawings before for local roadways, hadn't thought about freeways.
I have found the LA DPW to be a pretty good resource for Caltrans stuff, largely because it is accessible online. One would never expect it to be the primary record-holder for Caltrans infrastructure, coverage has holes even within the LA city limits (for example, I tried to find the signing plans you excerpted in your original post, and could not do it), a lot of the microfilm (or scans therefrom) is not up to snuff, and LA tends not to archive later rehabilitation contracts for lengths of state route for which it has the original construction plans. However, all of these disadvantages are counterbalanced by the ability to research stuff 24/7 and download copies free of charge. The engineering vault also has some unexpected surprises, such as the 1966 signing contract which changed out the original, early-1950's signing near the Four Level.
As far as I am aware, most if not all of the Caltrans districts have their as-built libraries in electronic format, but none of them are using electronic document management systems to store them that are exposed to public search. District 3 offers plans retrieval by email--you email them the routes and postmile intervals you are interested in, they send you a Falcon listing of plans for projects which overlap those postmile intervals, you order off that "menu," and the plans you select are then uploaded to the Caltrans FTP server--but I know of no other district which has a similar service. I have heard that District 7 gets so many plan requests that they in effect rely on collection in person as a rationing mechanism (if you are able to collect in person, your request is processed; otherwise it is put on the back burner).
For all the discussion of U.S. 6 being signed on the Hollywood - and as a young teen, I had very little reason to be driven on that road - I will say that it didn't disappear from the Harbor Freeway until the 1964 renumbering. I also don't recall seeing any signage from the Harbor showing a new U.S. 6 routing on the Hollywood Freeway. I don't think any of the above is dispositive as to whether U.S. 6 would have continued on its previous routing south of Downtown or whether it would have terminated at Downtown.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 23, 2013, 08:19:10 PM
I have found the LA DPW to be a pretty good resource for Caltrans stuff, largely because it is accessible online. One would never expect it to be the primary record-holder for Caltrans infrastructure....
This is because the first freeways (initially called parkways) in Los Angeles were actually designed by the city itself. The state took over the design responsibility a few years later.
Quote from: jrouse on April 25, 2013, 10:01:16 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on April 23, 2013, 08:19:10 PMI have found the LA DPW to be a pretty good resource for Caltrans stuff, largely because it is accessible online. One would never expect it to be the primary record-holder for Caltrans infrastructure....
This is because the first freeways (initially called parkways) in Los Angeles were actually designed by the city itself. The state took over the design responsibility a few years later.
This is true, and the first plan sets for the Arroyo Seco Parkway, Cahuenga Boulevard (later absorbed into the Hollywood Freeway), the Aliso Street Viaduct, etc. bear signatures and chopblocks indicating that design responsibility rested with the LA city engineer's office under Lloyd Aldrich. But the LA DPW engineering vault actually includes original construction plans for most Caltrans-maintained freeway segments within the Los Angeles city limits up to the mid-1970's, as well as a few segments in neighboring cities such as Glendale, Pasadena, and Burbank. I don't know if it was a provision of the relevant freeway agreements that obligated Caltrans to pass on copies of its construction plans to Los Angeles, but even if it was not, it would have been a necessary part of intergovernmental cooperation because LA has water and sewer responsibilities within the immediate vicinity of Caltrans freeways.
In other states there are similar information-sharing arrangements which operate to the benefit of people researching freeway history. For example, the City of Tucson has an online engineering vault similar to LA's, and it includes Arizona DOT projects within the Tucson city limits, including quite a few of the original I-10, I-19, and SR 210 construction contracts, the I-10/I-19 trumpet-to-wye conversion (2004), and the recently completed I-10 widening through downtown.
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2013, 06:03:26 PM
6 ended at 66, multiplexed with 101, according to your map - suffice to say a lot doesn't make sense, but it's not surprising US 6 ended up truncated in the end.
I always wondered if CA-2 East signs that are posted with US-101 South signs on Hollywood freeway replaced US-66 East signs? Those sign posts seem very old.
Yes, the SR-2 signs were formerly US 66 signs on the 101. I've seen some photos.
I too remember at least maps showing US 6 continuing down the Harbor Freeway, whether or not it was marked.
But what's blowing my mind is the though that if 6 was multiplexed with 66 and 101 on the Hollywood Freeway for even a short distance, 6 and 66 would be theoretically be signed in opposite directions: one direction would be 6 east and 66 west; the opposite direction would be 6 west and 66 east. Very strange!
Quote from: neonjohn on May 27, 2015, 02:50:03 PM
I too remember at least maps showing US 6 continuing down the Harbor Freeway, whether or not it was marked.
But what's blowing my mind is the though that if 6 was multiplexed with 66 and 101 on the Hollywood Freeway for even a short distance, 6 and 66 would be theoretically be signed in opposite directions: one direction would be 6 east and 66 west; the opposite direction would be 6 west and 66 east. Very strange!
Strange yes, but not as strange as that was the
second time they met. The first was here (see my location). Two entirely different US highways from Joliet to LA.
Quote from: neonjohn on May 27, 2015, 02:50:03 PM
I too remember at least maps showing US 6 continuing down the Harbor Freeway, whether or not it was marked.
But what's blowing my mind is the though that if 6 was multiplexed with 66 and 101 on the Hollywood Freeway for even a short distance, 6 and 66 would be theoretically be signed in opposite directions: one direction would be 6 east and 66 west; the opposite direction would be 6 west and 66 east. Very strange!
Yes, strange indeed. Thank God Caltrans has abandoned that practice to make motoring easier for everyone.
(https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~aaronj/roads/bloopers/alameda/closeup.jpg)
Quote from: neonjohn on May 27, 2015, 02:50:03 PM
I too remember at least maps showing US 6 continuing down the Harbor Freeway, whether or not it was marked.
It was indeed signed on today's I-110, generally concurrent with Route 11 (though late 1950s/early 1960s signs usually only featured US 6):
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550062
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550111
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19610061
from 101:
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19580061
Quote from: neonjohn on May 27, 2015, 02:50:03 PM
I too remember at least maps showing US 6 continuing down the Harbor Freeway, whether or not it was marked.
BTW, it was marked. I remember in the 90s that some greenout with an I-110 shield fell off a sign on the 405 south at the 110 interchange, and it exposed a reverse-colored US 6 shield underneath.
It was a sign with two shields. Presumably under the other 110 shield was a CA-11 shield