This is something I've been thinking about lately. There have been some occasions when I've been discussing toll roads and I would say something like, "Get back on the freeway" or something along those lines.
Most toll roads are actually freeways. And by the term "freeway", the definition of course has nothing to do with whether tolls are involved; it's simply about divided roads with access control (interchanges, etc.). However, I've had multiple people correct me and say that toll roads (even if they are actually freeways) should not be referred to as "freeways". I don't understand why.
Any insights?
It's incorrect in the same way that it's incorrect to call a game football where the ball is predominantly touched by the hands.
Except in rare instances, the eastern half of the United States calls its limited-access highways expressways, no matter what type they are. Freeways as a term are limited to the western half of the U.S. Therefore, being a Chicago transplant having lived on the West Coast for 25 years, I'd think that a freeway is where no tolls are collected, with toll roads being called something else (usually turnpikes, tollways, thruways, etc.).
I think the interpretation of "freeway" depends on where you live. The federal definition of the word "freeway" (or "expressway" or whatever) is really irrelevant in terms of everyday speech.
I've always lived on the East Coast and I think of the word "freeway" as being a California term, as it's not one that's used very often here in Virginia. Most of the time we would just say "the highway" when distinguishing a high-speed road with interchanges from a surface street. For example, my neighbor is preparing to sell her house and if the new homeowner is not from around here and asks me for advice in beating the traffic, one thing I'd say is that a lot of people always take the highway and so learning how to get around via the streets is vital. In that case "the highway" would be a generic term for I-495, I-95, I-395, I-66, the George Washington Parkway, and the Dulles Toll Road.
With that said, if I'm giving directions I shy away from generic terms like "freeway," "parkway," etc., in favor of using route numbers or names, landmarks, exit numbers, or preferably some combination of all of the above.
It's funny you raise this question now. On another forum I recently posted a picture of an old newspaper ad from 1984 when the Dulles Toll Road opened in Virginia. The HOA out in Reston wanted the road to be called the "Reston Expressway" and started running ads as though that name had already been adopted (it hadn't, and it never "took"–people still call it the Dulles Toll Road almost 30 years later). I made a crack about saying "expressway" when the road is a "freeway" and someone replied that calling a toll road a "freeway" would just serve to piss off a lot of people by misleading them.
So it's a fairly widespread misconception, I think, and no doubt the general disuse of the word "freeway" on the East Coast is a part of the reason for it. It's a bit jarring when you hear it. But so are many other regionalisms. In the mid-1980s my Boy Scout troop was heading to Pennsylvania on a camping trip and one of the adult leaders wrote up some directions saying to take "IH-95" north towards Baltimore. We all, adult leaders included, looked at it and said, "What the fuck is 'IH-95'?" (Picture Booger's reaction in Revenge of the Nerds when Takashi says he has a "frush" during a card game. That's how we reacted.) Apparently "IH" is a Texas regionalism and none of us had ever heard of it before.
Freeway= free expressway.
Tollway / turnpike = tolled expressway
So my answer is yes. Expressway would be correct in any instance though.
I previously had a distinction in my mind between toll roads and freeways, but upon reassessing, I concluded that the "free" in "freeway" is just like the "express" in "expressway. The "freedom" on a freeway refers to the free flow of traffic, with the lack of cross traffic and mandatory stops. If you have to stop, or slow to a very low speed, to pay a toll, that might make the road something other than a freeway. Every toll road I've seen in Texas has at least an option to drive through at full speed, and on most that's the only option. So I'd call them freeways.
That's how I see it. I believe I read somewhere that TxDOT agrees with me, defining freeways by design, regardless of tolls. It might be nice to have a term that means "non-toll freeway." I wouldn't object to the use of "freeway" to refer only to non-toll roads, or at least with non-toll lanes; I just wouldn't agree that it's the most proper term. But just like freeways don't exist in the northeast, and some expressways in Texas are actually freeways, maybe there isn't a "proper" term, and you use whichever term will be understood by those around you, or maybe live with whatever your state highway department says.
No. Technically, the term "freeway" is used for roads that are free of crossing traffic. Hence, "tolled freeway" is accurate. However, that said, around Chicago, the local terms "tollway" and "expressway" are used for the toll-supported and tax-supported freeways.
There is no such thing as a free road. It is either supported by tolls or taxes (fuel, property, sales, or otherwise).
Depends more on the region. In the upper midwest, freeway only applies to the freeways that don't charge a toll to drive on it and tollway refer to the roads that charge them.
Then "expressway" can have localized meanings meaning a freeway, but the common use is of a high-speed divided highway, but can contain at-grade intersections and private entrances/driveways, but doesn't contain traffic signals nor stop signs facing the expressway.
I was living in Chicago when I learned to speak English and my father admonished that-
"freeway"- free road, limited access, rural areas
"tollway"- toll road, limited access
"expressway"- free or tolled, urban area
so I-80 and I guess I-57 (never had a reason to be on I-57) was a freeway, but everything else in Chicago was either a tollway or an expressway.
Now that I live in the middle of nowhere, I tend to think of a tollway as a tolled freeway- all tollways are freeways but all freeways are not tollways. Expressways are a different beast.
Quote from: Big John on April 24, 2013, 03:07:31 PM
Depends more on the region. In the upper midwest, freeway only applies to the freeways that don't charge a toll to drive on it and tollway refer to the roads that charge them.
Then "expressway" can have localized meanings meaning a freeway, but the common use is of a high-speed divided highway, but can contain at-grade intersections and private entrances/driveways, but doesn't contain traffic signals nor stop signs facing the expressway.
I think part of the point of this thread is that "the common use" varies from place to place. If you're in New York, an "expressway" doesn't include at-grade intersections or private entrances/driveways. Interstate 278 is an "expressway," for example. So is Interstate 495.
I don't think that's all that unique, as the word "expressway" is commonly used that way in plenty of other places. The thing I think of as being unique to New York is the usage of "parkway" as meaning "no commercial traffic" (including on arterial streets like Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn). Sure, in other places you can find parkways with "no trucks" restrictions, but the word doesn't always have that sort of significance as a blanket rule.
The only reference to 'freeway' reference I've heard of in the east coast, aside from this website/forum, was traffic reporters referring to NJ 42 (and NJ portion of I-76) as the 42 Freeway. Some maps refer to the road (along w/I-676) as the North-South Freeway. That's been about it.
While a toll road can be a freeway, I avoiding calling them that in speech for exactly that reason. I always just call a toll road a toll road. "Get back on the toll road". And telling someone that "the road is fine, it's a toll road" conveys the same peace of mind about cross traffic as saying "the road is fine, it's a freeway".
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 24, 2013, 04:49:35 PM
The only reference to 'freeway' reference I've heard of in the east coast, aside from this website/forum, was traffic reporters referring to NJ 42 (and NJ portion of I-76) as the 42 Freeway. Some maps refer to the road (along w/I-676) as the North-South Freeway. That's been about it.
Here in the DC area we have the Whitehurst Freeway (an extremely short elevated highway in DC with a 35-mph speed limit that's routinely ignored), the Anacostia Freeway (which is never called that; everyone calls it I-295), and the Southwest—Southeast Freeway (I-395 and I-695). Everyone calls the Whitehurst Freeway by either that name or just "the Whitehurst." The traffic reporters refer to the Southwest—Southeast Freeway simply as "the Freeway." Other than those two roads, I can't think of any East Coast road I've heard people refer to using the word "freeway." Signs in Maryland refer to I-68 as the "National Freeway," but I've never heard anybody use that name.
Actually, come to think of it, I can think of ONE exception: Former poster ethanman62187 referred to Virginia State Route 28 north of I-66 as the "28 freeway" or the "sr 28 freeway" when he wasn't calling it "I-366." That alone is a reason to avoid the use of "freeway"! :-D
No. The "free" in "freeway" refers to the free flow of traffic. It doesn't mean it's toll free. Words can have more than one meaning.
In Tulsa, freeways are "the highway". Toll roads are either "the highway" or "the turnpike" regardless of the name of the road. An expressway is either a 4 lane divided road with traffic lights (Riverside Expressway) or a freeway (Broken Arrow Expressway(OK 51)) which is locally known as "The BA".
My definitions are as follows: A 4 or more lane controlled access road is a freeway. A 4 lane divided highway with at grades is an expressway. A 4+ lane road with at grades and traffic lights is just a street.
Cain's Ballroom is "The Cain's".
The webmaster of tollroadnews once emailed and asked me to not refer to toll roads as freeways on the site. :coffee:
I have a pending comment from a client where I used the term "freeway" for a toll road and they said "it's not free!" My snarky answer is, "Look it up." My real answer will be "Will choose a different word to avoid ambiguity" or along those lines. Diplomacy. Though at a road meet, if you say a toll freeway is not a freeway, I just might eat your dessert.
ETA:
QuoteI just might eat your dessert
is not a sexual reference. I will take your cake and eat it in front of you.
Taken from Page 237 of the 2009 MUTCD...
Quote from: MUTCD 2009 Edition
Toll highways are typically limited-access freeway or expressway facilities.
That's about as obvious as it can get.
In a technical discussion with technical people, if a road enjoys full access control and happens to be tolled, I will still call it a freeway, because that is almost certainly its functional classification.
Certainly the toll roads around Maryland and Virginia are all functionally classed as freeways (I-95 north of Baltimore (JFK Highway); I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel Thruway - though its design is dated); Md. 200 (ICC); Va. 267 (Dulles Toll Road and Dulles Greenway); Va. 76 (Pohwite Parkway); Va. 195 (Downtown Expressway); Va. 895 (Pocahontas Parkway); and Va. 168 (Chesapeake Expressway)).
But in speaking in lay terms to lay people, I will call a tolled freeway a "toll road" or "turnpike" or "toll crossing."
Burt Reynolds said it best in Smokey And The Bandit to Sally Field "It depends on what part of the country you stand on is how dumb your are" that being said means that every part of the country learns in a different manner. What one learns to be correct in one place could make you seem incorrect in another.
It is like us road geeks if we talked to non road geeks about what we talk about here on this forum, we would be told to "get a life!" That is because to most people the subject of roads and being deep into it is a worthless topic and the more you know about it, the more eccentric you are. Yet here we have rules that the more you know, the better it is for you when posting information.
Nonetheless, it is normal as many of us in society redefine words or its true meaning. I believe, personally that freeway should be used for non toll roads and do so in everyday talk, however I know the true definition means free of obstacles like intersections and free flowing at all times. I am not disputing the meaning, but I feel funny using the word "free" for a tollway even if it is correct to do so. I only use freeway here, because I know you know the meaning.
I agree that there is some regionalism at work here - in Illinois and Wisconsin, nobody, but NOBODY, will ever refer to a highway that requires the user to pay a direct toll to use as a 'freeway', it is a 'tollway'.
Mike
Quote from: briantroutman on April 24, 2013, 07:13:18 PM
Taken from Page 237 of the 2009 MUTCD...
Quote from: MUTCD 2009 Edition
Toll highways are typically limited-access freeway or expressway facilities.
That's about as obvious as it can get.
While most
lay people have heard of Webster's Dictionary, they're likely unaware of the existence of MUTCD let alone its contents.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 24, 2013, 07:40:27 PM
Burt Reynolds said it best in Smokey And The Bandit to Sally Field "It depends on what part of the country you stand on is how dumb your are" that being said means that every part of the country learns in a different manner. What one learns to be correct in one place could make you seem incorrect in another.
It is like us road geeks if we talked to non road geeks about what we talk about here on this forum, we would be told to "get a life!" That is because to most people the subject of roads and being deep into it is a worthless topic and the more you know about it, the more eccentric you are. Yet here we have rules that the more you know, the better it is for you when posting information.
Nonetheless, it is normal as many of us in society redefine words or its true meaning. I believe, personally that freeway should be used for non toll roads and do so in everyday talk, however I know the true definition means free of obstacles like intersections and free flowing at all times. I am not disputing the meaning, but I feel funny using the word "free" for a tollway even if it is correct to do so. I only use freeway here, because I know you know the meaning.
Agree 100%.
No, it isn't incorrect to refer to a toll road as a freeway, cause technically it is a freeway.
That said, I understand why many here wouldn't use the term to refer to a tolled highway just because it can be confusing. There's not tolled roads in Nevada (yet), but I imagine that I would just refer to such highways by their number or saying "toll road" or "tollway".
Looking at another related perspective: Is it incorrect to call a driveway exactly that? You don't really 'drive' there, it's for parking.
Quote from: roadfro on April 25, 2013, 12:15:47 PM
Looking at another related perspective: Is it incorrect to call a driveway exactly that? You don't really 'drive' there, it's for parking.
It is? I usually drive through mine between the street and the garage.
Gallagher: Why is it that we drive through a parkway, and park in a driveway?
Quote from: Henry on April 24, 2013, 02:01:55 PM
Except in rare instances, the eastern half of the United States calls its limited-access highways expressways, no matter what type they are. Freeways as a term are limited to the western half of the U.S.
A lot of road enthusiasts understand that "expressways" are high-speed highways that have periodic at-grade intersections and limited (not non-existent) cross traffic - while "freeways" have absolutely zero cross traffic and at-grade intersections. If the eastern U.S. calls freeways "expressways", do they have a specific term for what I just described as expressways? Or are those types of roads few and far between in that part of the country?
I know I'm being a bit pedantic in the terminology, but I just enjoy discussing these nuances. :)
Quote from: Big John on April 25, 2013, 01:38:27 PM
Gallagher: Why is it that we drive through a parkway, and park in a driveway?
Have you heard the one about airline food? Sometimes they serve jumbo shrimp!
It is interesting that there are so many variations to naming different highway classes in the English language.
In French, for example, a highway is simply an autoroute. There aren't variations of the word autoroute that coincide with specific forms of highways such as expressways, freeways, or tollways.
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on April 25, 2013, 01:41:49 PM
A lot of road enthusiasts understand that "expressways" are high-speed highways that have periodic at-grade intersections and limited (not non-existent) cross traffic - while "freeways" have absolutely zero cross traffic and at-grade intersections. If the eastern U.S. calls freeways "expressways", do they have a specific term for what I just described as expressways? Or are those types of roads few and far between in that part of the country?
I think for the most part, partially controlled-access expressways are relatively rare in the East. There are some newer examples, such as the US 222 bypass around Trexlertown and Wescosville west of Allentown. In the project literature, PennDOT referred to the new road as a "boulevard-style highway".
With the prevalence of Eastern freeways named "The (Whatever) Expressway", I doubt most Easterners would refer to a true "expressway" by that name. It would just be a "highway", or more specifically, "route 222".
My guess is that it's rarer in the East for two reasons. First, because of right of way issues. Most Eastern cities are older, and their arterial routes typically evolved out of city street patterns. By the time highway departments were coping with suburbanization and increased car traffic, the areas to be served were often already developed or in development, so preventing these landowners from accessing the highway frontage would be impractical.
And second, since many Eastern states were early adopters of the limited-access highway concept, it seems like the zeitgeist of the '40s and '50s was behind building "superhighways" with great enthusiasm. A mantra repeated many times in articles about the growing turnpike network was "New York to Chicago without a single red light." So an expressway with at-grade intersections would seem like an anti-achievement in those days. If they did go to the trouble of acquiring that ROW, it would be for a fully controlled-access highway.
In much of the world (including the UK and many other EU nations), the word motorway is used describe a high-speed road with full access control.
IMO, motorway and freeway are synonyms.
Quote from: briantroutman on April 25, 2013, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on April 25, 2013, 01:41:49 PM
A lot of road enthusiasts understand that "expressways" are high-speed highways that have periodic at-grade intersections and limited (not non-existent) cross traffic - while "freeways" have absolutely zero cross traffic and at-grade intersections. If the eastern U.S. calls freeways "expressways", do they have a specific term for what I just described as expressways? Or are those types of roads few and far between in that part of the country?
I think for the most part, partially controlled-access expressways are relatively rare in the East. There are some newer examples, such as the US 222 bypass around Trexlertown and Wescosville west of Allentown. In the project literature, PennDOT referred to the new road as a "boulevard-style highway".
There are several around Washington, D.C. and Baltimore, Md., including:
Md. 4 (Pennsylvania Avenue);
Md. 5 (Branch Avenue);
Md. 41 (Perring Parkway);
Md. 43 (White Marsh Boulevard);
Sections of Md. 201 (Kenilworth Avenue - including the part between D.C. 295 and U.S. 50);
U.S. 29 (Columbia Pike - between Md. 650 and I-70);
Sections of U.S. 50/U.S. 301 in Anne Arundel and Queen Anne's Counties;
Sections of U.S. 50 (Arlington Boulevard) in Arlington and Fairfax Counties;
Va. 286 (Fairfax County Parkway);
Va. 289 (Franconia Springfield Parkway);
Sections of Va. 294 (Prince William Parkway);
The part of Va. 234 that is the western end of the Prince William Parkway; and
At least one section of D.C. 295 (between East Capitol Street and Eastern Avenue, N.E.).
EDIT: added a few more segments.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 25, 2013, 06:38:34 PM
In much of the world (including the UK and many other EU nations), the word motorway is used describe a high-speed road with full access control.
IMO, motorway and freeway are synonyms.
Actually, a motorway usually limits traffic to motor vehicles. Freeways in general have no such restrictions.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 25, 2013, 06:48:38 PM
There are several around Washington, D.C. and Baltimore, Md., including:
The Baltomore-Washington area seems to be an exception. And that seems to make sense, as I believe the Baltimore-Washington area has seen a greater proportion of suburban/exurban development in later years compared with the other old Northeastern cities.
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on April 24, 2013, 01:54:56 PM
This is something I've been thinking about lately. There have been some occasions when I've been discussing toll roads and I would say something like, "Get back on the freeway" or something along those lines.
Most toll roads are actually freeways. And by the term "freeway", the definition of course has nothing to do with whether tolls are involved; it's simply about divided roads with access control (interchanges, etc.). However, I've had multiple people correct me and say that toll roads (even if they are actually freeways) should not be referred to as "freeways". I don't understand why.
Any insights?
To answer your question most narrowly: yes, it is incorrect to call a toll road a freeway, when the road you're referring to isn't limited-access. In every other case it's correct, but you may be informed that it isn't by a listener unfamiliar with the various definitions of "freeway".
In another sense, to call a tolled limited-access highway a "freeway" is incorrect after all, if you're in California, in the same way that it's incorrect to be in New York City, see a hero sandwich, and call it a hoagie. Or to be in the U.S., see a sweater, and refer to it as a jumper.
By extension, it would be considered incorrect writing style to use "freeway" to refer to a toll road if it leads to misapprehension of what you've written. A similar example: most style editors would discourage the use of "rectangle" to describe a square, even though it's an accurate term for that shape, because most readers would imagine a shape with unequal sides. Therefore "rectangle" is not a desirable choice, and therefore stylistically incorrect.
So in answer to your question, yes it is incorrect. It is also correct. Of the different ways it is and isn't correct, you must choose the applicable one and pick your word accordingly.
Quote from: empirestate on April 26, 2013, 12:17:21 AM
To answer your question most narrowly: yes, it is incorrect to call a toll road a freeway, when the road you're referring to isn't limited-access. In every other case it's correct, but you may be informed that it isn't by a listener unfamiliar with the various definitions of "freeway".
In another sense, to call a tolled limited-access highway a "freeway" is incorrect after all, if you're in California, in the same way that it's incorrect to be in New York City, see a hero sandwich, and call it a hoagie. Or to be in the U.S., see a sweater, and refer to it as a jumper.
By extension, it would be considered incorrect writing style to use "freeway" to refer to a toll road if it leads to misapprehension of what you've written. A similar example: most style editors would discourage the use of "rectangle" to describe a square, even though it's an accurate term for that shape, because most readers would imagine a shape with unequal sides. Therefore "rectangle" is not a desirable choice, and therefore stylistically incorrect.
So in answer to your question, yes it is incorrect. It is also correct. Of the different ways it is and isn't correct, you must choose the applicable one and pick your word accordingly.
Thanks for this answer. I love exploring the nuances of language and discussing subtle differences. I like that it's both correct and incorrect to call toll roads "freeways".
In general, I do believe that the "free-" in "freeway" is about the free flow of traffic - not about being toll free.
Regional differences in terminology are quite interesting. If the Eastern U.S. calls their freeways "expressways", that's cool I s'pose, since it sounds like actual expressways are pretty rare there and because that's what they are used to saying. In the Midwest, however, where expressways and freeways are two separate and distinct highway types, we need to have two separate words to describe them.
On the other hand, someone made a distinction of rural vs. urban, where:
Rural limited-access highways = "freeways"
Urban limited-access highways = "expressways"
That kinda makes sense too. Driving through an busy urban setting quickly is the "express" way of getting through, while being out in rural areas, the motorist is "free" and doesn't have dense population areas to drive through. That's a really good distinction. Although... rural expressways with at-grade intersections CANNOT be called "freeways".
This has been such a fun discussion. Thanks to everyone for your insights! :)
Quote from: NE2 on April 25, 2013, 07:07:12 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 25, 2013, 06:38:34 PM
In much of the world (including the UK and many other EU nations), the word motorway is used describe a high-speed road with full access control.
IMO, motorway and freeway are synonyms.
Actually, a motorway usually limits traffic to motor vehicles. Freeways in general have no such restrictions.
If memory serves, I think I have seen a motorway that allows shoulder use by bike traffic in Finland.
And more than a few roads in the U.S. classed as freeways forbid all bike traffic.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 24, 2013, 05:27:03 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 24, 2013, 04:49:35 PM
The only reference to 'freeway' reference I've heard of in the east coast, aside from this website/forum, was traffic reporters referring to NJ 42 (and NJ portion of I-76) as the 42 Freeway. Some maps refer to the road (along w/I-676) as the North-South Freeway. That's been about it.
Here in the DC area we have the Whitehurst Freeway (an extremely short elevated highway in DC with a 35-mph speed limit that's routinely ignored), the Anacostia Freeway (which is never called that; everyone calls it I-295), and the Southwest—Southeast Freeway (I-395 and I-695). Everyone calls the Whitehurst Freeway by either that name or just "the Whitehurst." The traffic reporters refer to the Southwest—Southeast Freeway simply as "the Freeway." Other than those two roads, I can't think of any East Coast road I've heard people refer to using the word "freeway." Signs in Maryland refer to I-68 as the "National Freeway," but I've never heard anybody use that name.
The one thing your examples and my above-examples have in common is that all of those are
non-tolled highways.
Most of the longer-distance toll roads that built in the East Coast were, in many instances, the only limited-access highways around until the Interstate Highway Act came along and were commonly refered to as
Turnpikes (GSP being one exception). Addtionally, the term
Turnpike wasn't just limited-access highways back then. We could have a whole other thread devoted to the definition of the word
Turnpike if there isn't already one buried in the archives. :sombrero:
While the
freeway definition/term may have existed even then; it just wasn't used or known in the East Coast back then. Similar holds true today, at least in terms of the usage of the term.
am I the only one who calls a road an expressway if, and only if, it has no stops on the mainline? it can have at-grade intersections, but no traffic signals or stop signs.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 26, 2013, 11:12:27 AM
am I the only one who calls a road an expressway if, and only if, it has no stops on the mainline? it can have at-grade intersections, but no traffic signals or stop signs.
As long as I've been around this community, I still have no idea what a non-freeway expressway is.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on April 25, 2013, 01:51:32 PMIn French, for example, a highway is simply an autoroute. There aren't variations of the word autoroute that coincide with specific forms of highways such as expressways, freeways, or tollways.
Actually, that is not true. French technical literature recognizes a distinction between an
autoroute as legal object (i.e., a road having all the legal characteristics of an
autoroute, such as limitation to motor vehicles, denial of access to frontagers, etc.) and an
autoroute as technical object (i.e., having all the physical features associated with a freeway or motorway, but not necessarily all the legal characteristics). France also has
voies express which are in effect "green
autoroutes"--i.e., two carriageways and design for high speed with access only at grade-separated interchanges--but do not meet the criteria to be signed as true
autoroutes. ("Green" comes from the fact that these
voies express are part of the
reseau vert--"green network"--and thus have green-background direction signs. I don't know offhand whether the
reseau vert is limited to roads which are under the charge of French central government, but any changes to the network have to be approved at ministerial level.)
Spain has a distinction between
autopistas and
autovías.
Germany has true
Autobahnen and what are sometimes called "
gelb [yellow]
Autobahnen," which are similar to French "green
autoroutes" in that they are freeways by construction but are not legally classified as
Autobahnen and thus have the yellow-background direction signs that in Germany are used for important through routes.
In addition to
Autobahnen, Austria has
Schnellstrassen (this term is itself a transliteration of English
expressway) which in practice are often freeways.
Und so weiter . . .
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 26, 2013, 10:27:05 AMWhile the freeway definition/term may have existed even then; it just wasn't used or known in the East Coast back then. Similar holds true today, at least in terms of the usage of the term.
Freeway may not have been in East Coast colloquial usage either now or then; however, the term itself was invented in 1930 by an East Coast planning expert (Edward M. Bassett, also known as the father of zoning), and the first modern access control laws were passed in Eastern states (if memory serves, Rhode Island was the first).
I suspect the colloquial usage of
freeway has been more prevalent on the West Coast because, initially, the only feature of a freeway that mattered was the denial of access to frontagers; it was not generally understood then that a freeway also implies a sterile median and access only at grade-separated interchanges. The California access-control law (which does not distinguish between freeways as presently understood and expressways having full or partial control of access, both being defined as "freeways") preserves a relic of this older usage. Early California standards for freeways included provisions covering partial-access scenarios, such as minimum spacing between driveways and design and placement details for marker posts which were to be placed on either side of an approved driveway.
It was not until the early 1950's that
California Highways and Public Works (the house publication of the California Department of Public Works, which included the Division of Highways) began using the term
freeway more or less exclusively to refer to facilities which meet the modern
MUTCD/AASHTO definition of a freeway.
In regard to the OP's question, there is a distinction between what is correct and what is idiomatic. For example, I would neither correct anyone, nor accept a correction from anyone else, for calling the Cross-Bronx Expressway or the New York Thruway freeways. However, I would point out (and accept it if it were pointed out to me by someone else) that calling these facilities "freeways," though technically correct, is not idiomatic in their regions and might be misunderstood either as an error or as a culturally insensitive attempt to import California usages.
For similar reasons, when talking about freeway-type facilities in an European country, I tend to use the technical terms that are used in that country without translation. In situations where this is not convenient (e.g., talking about freeway-like facilities in more than one country), I use the term
motorway for those freeways which are defined as motorways in national legislation, and
comprehensively grade-separated dual carriageway for freeways which for one reason or another are not classified as motorways. (
High-quality dual carriageways is a shorter British Isles circumlocution for the latter, which is well-understood in SABRE circles, but I don't use it because it is not self-evident that
high-quality refers to an absence of traffic crossing on the level.) It is very grating to hear British motorways, for example, described as "freeways": the term is technically correct but the cultural freight is just wrong.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 26, 2013, 11:12:27 AMam I the only one who calls a road an expressway if, and only if, it has no stops on the mainline? it can have at-grade intersections, but no traffic signals or stop signs.
That is more restrictive than the AASHTO definition, which allows traffic signals and other forms of intersection priority control.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 26, 2013, 11:20:49 AMAs long as I've been around this community, I still have no idea what a non-freeway expressway is.
That is very simple, if it is clear that the AASHTO definition is being referenced: two carriageways, intersections on the level, partial control of access. But besides the complication of local usage ("expressway" as a synonym for "urban freeway" or what Caltrans calls a "major metropolitan freeway"), some states distinguish between expressways and "divided rural arterials," which meet the AASHTO definition of expressway but have a lesser quality of access control and thus a higher degree of infestation with stoplights, traffic-generating frontage development, etc. It is rare for mapping for these states to distinguish among the different degrees of access control that may be applied to a facility that meets the AASHTO definition of expressway.
Quote from: empirestate on April 26, 2013, 12:17:21 AM
So in answer to your question, yes it is incorrect. It is also correct.
Welcome to Alanland.
what is the difference between this ...
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 26, 2013, 11:33:10 AM
That is more restrictive than the AASHTO definition, which allows traffic signals and other forms of intersection priority control.
and this?
Quote"divided rural arterials," which meet the AASHTO definition of expressway but have a lesser quality of access control
how many traffic lights per mile are you allowed before your expressway becomes an arterial? if there is a hard number to this, why not make it zero? I think there is definite value in having roads with permitted left turns, but no stops on the mainline. it's certainly my preference to drive those roads, as opposed to ones with traffic lights. I'd even rather do a two-lane than a four-lane with traffic lights.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 26, 2013, 11:25:22 AMa culturally insensitive attempt to import California usages.
for just 70 cents a day, you can save New York's vulnerable and threatened culture from being invaded by imperialist Californians.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 26, 2013, 11:20:49 AM
As long as I've been around this community, I still have no idea what a non-freeway expressway is.
Non-freeway expressways, as I understand them, are high-speed roads (usually divided with a median) that have periodic at-grade intersections (usually without traffic signals). Driveways and side streets are infrequent.
Freeways, on the other hand, can NEVER have at-grade intersections, traffic signals, or driveways/side streets entering the carriageway. Access is more limited than on freeways than on expressways.
Does that make sense?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 26, 2013, 11:42:24 AMwhat is the difference between this ...
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 26, 2013, 11:33:10 AM
That is more restrictive than the AASHTO definition, which allows traffic signals and other forms of intersection priority control.
and this?
Quote"divided rural arterials," which meet the AASHTO definition of expressway but have a lesser quality of access control
how many traffic lights per mile are you allowed before your expressway becomes an arterial? if there is a hard number to this, why not make it zero? I think there is definite value in having roads with permitted left turns, but no stops on the mainline. it's certainly my preference to drive those roads, as opposed to ones with traffic lights. I'd even rather do a two-lane than a four-lane with traffic lights.
It is not a question of how many traffic lights are allowed since both types of facility are technically expressways per the AASHTO definition. Frankly, I think it is a very bad idea for those states to have a policy of breaking out divided rural arterials as a separate category of road for which only a minimum level of access control is provided--this just encourages ribbon development and squeezes out the construction of other types of road which are better specialized to handle fast through traffic and thus to act as a supplement to the freeway network.
Southern states are especially susceptible to this mistake, though some have learned their lesson--North Carolina, for example, is very expensively upgrading to full freeway the part of US 70 east of Raleigh which became an enabler for ribbon development when it was widened to four-lane divided more than 20 years ago. On the other hand, if comments on the Southeastern board are to be believed, Georgia DOT is still going full speed ahead with this sort of development.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 26, 2013, 10:27:05 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 24, 2013, 05:27:03 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 24, 2013, 04:49:35 PM
The only reference to 'freeway' reference I've heard of in the east coast, aside from this website/forum, was traffic reporters referring to NJ 42 (and NJ portion of I-76) as the 42 Freeway. Some maps refer to the road (along w/I-676) as the North-South Freeway. That's been about it.
Here in the DC area we have the Whitehurst Freeway (an extremely short elevated highway in DC with a 35-mph speed limit that's routinely ignored), the Anacostia Freeway (which is never called that; everyone calls it I-295), and the Southwest—Southeast Freeway (I-395 and I-695). Everyone calls the Whitehurst Freeway by either that name or just "the Whitehurst." The traffic reporters refer to the Southwest—Southeast Freeway simply as "the Freeway." Other than those two roads, I can't think of any East Coast road I've heard people refer to using the word "freeway." Signs in Maryland refer to I-68 as the "National Freeway," but I've never heard anybody use that name.
The one thing your examples and my above-examples have in common is that all of those are non-tolled highways.
Most of the longer-distance toll roads that built in the East Coast were, in many instances, the only limited-access highways around until the Interstate Highway Act came along and were commonly refered to as Turnpikes (GSP being one exception). Addtionally, the term Turnpike wasn't just limited-access highways back then. We could have a whole other thread devoted to the definition of the word Turnpike if there isn't already one buried in the archives. :sombrero:
While the freeway definition/term may have existed even then; it just wasn't used or known in the East Coast back then. Similar holds true today, at least in terms of the usage of the term.
Yeah, my comment about those was not intended as to the "toll road" aspect of this thread but rather in response to your comment that the segment you reference in New Jersey is the only place you've heard "freeway" used on the East Coast. In other words, I understood you to be commenting that the term simply isn't used here–regardless as to whether it's a toll road or not–and I was concurring and noting that the term is just rare in general and that most of the time if I've heard it used it's because it's part of the road's actual name (i.e., "Whitehurst Freeway" is a formal name, whereas "28 freeway" is not).
Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 26, 2013, 11:20:49 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 26, 2013, 11:12:27 AM
am I the only one who calls a road an expressway if, and only if, it has no stops on the mainline? it can have at-grade intersections, but no traffic signals or stop signs.
As long as I've been around this community, I still have no idea what a non-freeway expressway is.
No driveways or other private access points.
Signalized intersections are allowed.
At-grade unsignalized intersections are allowed.
Grade-separated interchanges are, of course, allowed, but I have seen expressways that had very few grade-separated interchanges - U.S. 29 (Columbia Pike) in Montgomery and Howard Counties, Maryland once had three grade-separated interchanges, with everything else at-grade (about 15 to 20 signalized intersections in a row).
The "original" interchanges were near the southern end of the expressway section of U.S. 29 at Md. 650 (New Hampshire Avenue); and at the northern end - U.S. 40, and I-70 (U.S. 29 ends just north of I-70 at a signalized intersection with Md. 99).
Va. 286 (the Fairfax County Parkway - former Va. 7100) is a good example of an East Coast expressway with long sections of almost-freeway like driving, but then suddenly (signalized and unsignalized) intersections at-grade.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 26, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
For similar reasons, when talking about freeway-type facilities in an European country, I tend to use the technical terms that are used in that country without translation. In situations where this is not convenient (e.g., talking about freeway-like facilities in more than one country), I use the term motorway for those freeways which are defined as motorways in national legislation, and comprehensively grade-separated dual carriageway for freeways which for one reason or another are not classified as motorways. (High-quality dual carriageways is a shorter British Isles circumlocution for the latter, which is well-understood in SABRE circles, but I don't use it because it is not self-evident that high-quality refers to an absence of traffic crossing on the level.) It is very grating to hear British motorways, for example, described as "freeways": the term is technically correct but the cultural freight is just wrong.
I also prefer to call a motorway just that, especially if it has signs like this at its entrances (in many ways analogous to California's almost iconic FREEWAY ENTRANCE signs):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transportstyrelsen.se%2FVagmarken%2FAnvisningsmarken%2FE1%2FE1-1%2Fladdahem%2FE-11.png&hash=64b514493876da3b9e01eb64f46a68a69192c55d)
And these at its exits:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transportstyrelsen.se%2FVagmarken%2FAnvisningsmarken%2FE2%2FE2-1%2Fladdahem%2FE2-1.png&hash=f9f2bb490e1341185a15be034ed6e550759cb6fd)
Some of my Swedish-speaking friends have been misled by poorly-subtitled Hollywood movies into believing that the U.S. English word
highway means
motorway - which, of course, it does not, even though there are more than a few U.S. highways that happen to be built to motorway (freeway) standards.
To stir the pot some more, highway E20 is a motorway as it approaches the Øresund Bridge-Tunnel on the Swedish and Danish sides, yet as one approaches the toll plaza (located on the Swedish side for both directions), these (http://maps.google.se/maps?q=Lernacken&hl=sv&ll=55.565212,12.902187&spn=0.003416,0.009645&geocode=FUvhTwMdhZXEAA&hnear=Lernacken&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=55.565219,12.902487&panoid=K6GEC6P-SrC5CAD8f8spOw&cbp=12,120.75,,1,11.66) are the signs that greet drivers - END MOTORWAY. Once clear of the toll plaza (and for Denmark-to-Sweden, sometimes Swedish Customs control), the motorway resumes (http://maps.google.se/maps?q=Lernacken&hl=sv&ll=55.565176,12.918452&spn=0.003416,0.009645&geocode=FUvhTwMdhZXEAA&hnear=Lernacken&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=55.565162,12.918622&panoid=nCBLwTZVF0MAtiyeOxHZ9A&cbp=12,130.36,,1,8.16) with a fairly standard "Swedish" motorway speed limit of 110 k/h.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 26, 2013, 01:00:53 PM
Yeah, my comment about those was not intended as to the "toll road" aspect of this thread but rather in response to your comment that the segment you reference in New Jersey is the only place you've heard "freeway" used on the East Coast. In other words, I understood you to be commenting that the term simply isn't used here–regardless as to whether it's a toll road or not–and I was concurring and noting that the term is just rare in general and that most of the time if I've heard it used it's because it's part of the road's actual name (i.e., "Whitehurst Freeway" is a formal name, whereas "28 freeway" is not).
Though the Whitehurst Freeway (also U.S. 29) is definitely not functionally classed as a freeway. It might be an expressway (and I am not certain of that).
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2013, 07:14:09 PM
Though the Whitehurst Freeway (also U.S. 29) is definitely not functionally classed as a freeway.
Eh? http://www.dc.gov/DC/DDOT/About+DDOT/Maps/Functional+Classification+Map (PDF)
It's 'other freeway and expressway'. Functional classification makes no distinction between freeways and expressways.
from Google:
free·way
/ˈfrēˌwā/
Noun
An express highway.
A toll-free highway.
Synonyms
highway - expressway - motorway - speedway
ex·press·way
/ikˈspresˌwā/
Noun
A highway designed for fast traffic, with controlled entrance and exit, a dividing strip between the traffic in opposite directions, and...
Synonyms
highway - freeway - motorway - speedway
toll·way
/ˈtōlˌwā/
Noun
A highway for the use of which a charge is made.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2013, 06:46:28 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 26, 2013, 11:20:49 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 26, 2013, 11:12:27 AM
am I the only one who calls a road an expressway if, and only if, it has no stops on the mainline? it can have at-grade intersections, but no traffic signals or stop signs.
As long as I've been around this community, I still have no idea what a non-freeway expressway is.
No driveways or other private access points.
Signalized intersections are allowed.
At-grade unsignalized intersections are allowed.
Grade-separated interchanges are, of course, allowed, but I have seen expressways that had very few grade-separated interchanges - U.S. 29 (Columbia Pike) in Montgomery and Howard Counties, Maryland once had three grade-separated interchanges, with everything else at-grade (about 15 to 20 signalized intersections in a row).
The "original" interchanges were near the southern end of the expressway section of U.S. 29 at Md. 650 (New Hampshire Avenue); and at the northern end - U.S. 40, and I-70 (U.S. 29 ends just north of I-70 at a signalized intersection with Md. 99).
Va. 286 (the Fairfax County Parkway - former Va. 7100) is a good example of an East Coast expressway with long sections of almost-freeway like driving, but then suddenly (signalized and unsignalized) intersections at-grade.
I'd add the NYC Exception - no parking along the mainline, either. Otherwise 9th Avenue would be an expressway.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2013, 06:46:28 PM
No driveways or other private access points.
Not necessarily true in IL and some other states. There are several Illinois expressways, past and present, that have farm field entrances and private entrances, usually but not always with a median opening and sometimes left and/or right turn lanes for access. This is usually to accommodate existing property access, and no new entrances are allowed. In some cases, the private access does not have a median opening and the driver will need to make a right turn out of the drive and go to the next median opening to make a U-turn if they want to go in the opposite direction.
Quote from: Rick Powell on April 27, 2013, 10:18:55 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2013, 06:46:28 PM
No driveways or other private access points.
Not necessarily true in IL and some other states. There are several Illinois expressways, past and present, that have farm field entrances and private entrances, usually but not always with a median opening and sometimes left and/or right turn lanes for access. This is usually to accommodate existing property access, and no new entrances are allowed. In some cases, the private access does not have a median opening and the driver will need to make a right turn out of the drive and go to the next median opening to make a U-turn if they want to go in the opposite direction.
Ditto Wisconsin.
Mike
Quote from: Rick Powell on April 27, 2013, 10:18:55 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2013, 06:46:28 PM
No driveways or other private access points.
Not necessarily true in IL and some other states. There are several Illinois expressways, past and present, that have farm field entrances and private entrances, usually but not always with a median opening and sometimes left and/or right turn lanes for access. This is usually to accommodate existing property access, and no new entrances are allowed. In some cases, the private access does not have a median opening and the driver will need to make a right turn out of the drive and go to the next median opening to make a U-turn if they want to go in the opposite direction.
I feel like Midwestern farm entrances are always ignored in definitions. I've encountered traffic making a left turn onto I-40 from a Texas ranch driveway in the early morning.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 28, 2013, 12:08:09 AM
Quote from: Steve on April 27, 2013, 09:59:17 PM...like Midwestern farm entrances...
Quote from: Steve on April 27, 2013, 09:59:17 PM
...a Texas ranch driveway...
Sorry, this amused me.
I've never grown up with Mid-South as a term. It now occurs to me as where Texas is, but Midwest is equally valid. In my mind, Midwest = that flat place with a bunch of farms.
Quote from: Steve on April 28, 2013, 03:56:39 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 28, 2013, 12:08:09 AM
Quote from: Steve on April 27, 2013, 09:59:17 PM...like Midwestern farm entrances...
Quote from: Steve on April 27, 2013, 09:59:17 PM
...a Texas ranch driveway...
Sorry, this amused me.
I've never grown up with Mid-South as a term. It now occurs to me as where Texas is, but Midwest is equally valid. In my mind, Midwest = that flat place with a bunch of farms.
"Midwest", to us here in Illinois (and Wisconsin, Michigan, Iowa, etc) goes as far south as Kansas and Missouri, but not Texas or Oklahoma. It's more than geography. It's mannerisms and accents. Texas is distinctly its own place, and Oklahoma is more South than Midwest to us.
Quote from: NE2 on April 26, 2013, 08:23:08 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2013, 07:14:09 PM
Though the Whitehurst Freeway (also U.S. 29) is definitely not functionally classed as a freeway.
Eh? http://www.dc.gov/DC/DDOT/About+DDOT/Maps/Functional+Classification+Map (PDF)
It's 'other freeway and expressway'. Functional classification makes no distinction between freeways and expressways.
Really?? I thought that the functional definition of "expressway" allowed for at-grade intersections; while "freeway"/"tollway" directly imply full control of access, with only interchanges and grade seperations.
Quote from: Anthony_JK on April 28, 2013, 06:08:57 PM
Really?? I thought that the functional definition of "expressway" allowed for at-grade intersections; while "freeway"/"tollway" directly imply full control of access, with only interchanges and grade seperations.
Functional classification is a specific way of classifying roads that replaced the federal-aid systems in 1991: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/travel/hpms/functionalclass.htm
"Freeway" describes a type of design rather than a lack of payment at point of use, so no, it is not incorrect to classify a toll road as a "freeway". That said, when speaking I would probably refer to such a road as a "toll road" or "turnpike" since it's less confusion-inducing.
Point is, it's not a different type of road just because it's tolled. If you ask "how many freeway miles are in such and such area", toll road mileage would be included in the answer.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on April 26, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
from Google:
free·way
/ˈfrēˌwā/
Noun
An express highway.
A toll-free highway.
Synonyms
highway - expressway - motorway - speedway
ex·press·way
/ikˈspresˌwā/
Noun
A highway designed for fast traffic, with controlled entrance and exit, a dividing strip between the traffic in opposite directions, and...
Synonyms
highway - freeway - motorway - speedway
toll·way
/ˈtōlˌwā/
Noun
A highway for the use of which a charge is made.
I see 2 of the 3 definitions quoted above are incorrect.
And I would argue the 3rd definition is grammatically incorrect.
Well, there are many people who do use "freeway" to refer to a free facility as distinct from a toll road. So while they themselves may arguably be incorrect in their usage, it is quite correct for a dictionary to report on that usage and include that definition. Dictionaries describe words as they are used, not as they should be used.
At the same time, of course–yes, the online dictionaries that appear from a search aren't often the best-written.
Ok, from Websters Dictionary:
free·way
noun \ˈfrē-ˌwā\
Definition of FREEWAY
1
: an expressway with fully controlled access
2
: a highway without toll fees
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freeway
Expressway:
Definition of EXPRESSWAY
: a high-speed divided highway for through traffic with access partially or fully controlled
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expressway?show=0&t=1367247456
toll·way
noun \-ˌwā\
Definition of TOLLWAY
: turnpike 2a(1)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tollway
I was just about to post Webster's definitions of the terms freeway and expressway, but AsphaltPlanet beat me to it. :spin: Thanks for posting those!
I have to say that the second definition of freeway seems to be too broad. The term highway generally incorporates all road-design types: freeways, expressways, and 2-lane roads, and usually implies long distance. According to Webster, though, a highway is "a public way; especially, a main direct road." That also seems to be too broad because it doesn't imply travel between cities/towns of any significant distance.
Personally, I like the idea of the term expressway having two definitions: 1) an urban freeway (as they often say out East), and 2) a partially-controlled, high-speed road that may have occasional at-grade intersections. I also had a thought though... all the named freeways in Chicago are referred to as "expressways": Kennedy Expressway, Stevenson Expressway, Eisenhower Expressway, Dan Ryan Expressway, and so on. (It's not just an Eastern U.S. thing.) Two types of expressways definitely exist.
We've definitely veered off from the original topic, but this is good discussion.
As to urban vs. rural highways, particularly in the East, don't forget that an early term for rural, intercity facilities was "superhighway". By happenstance, the term was usually applied to toll roads, but not exclusively so. It was common during the turnpike/Thruway boom, but hung around long enough to apply to free roads like the Adirondack Northway (I-87).
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on April 26, 2013, 10:14:08 AM
Regional differences in terminology are quite interesting. If the Eastern U.S. calls their freeways "expressways", that's cool I s'pose, since it sounds like actual expressways are pretty rare there and because that's what they are used to saying. In the Midwest, however, where expressways and freeways are two separate and distinct highway types, we need to have two separate words to describe them.
On the other hand, someone made a distinction of rural vs. urban, where:
Rural limited-access highways = "freeways"
Urban limited-access highways = "expressways"
This is not the case in California.
All controlled-access highways are considered freeways. Expressways are, for the most part, limited access but can have at-grade intersections. A good illustration of the difference between the two road types can be found in Santa Clara County. The county has a network of high-speed roads with speed limits of 45-50 MPH that have interchanges, at-grade signalized intersections and the occasional private driveway. All of these roads are called expressways (Lawrence Expressway, Capitol Expressway, Montague Expressway, etc) and are maintained by the county but patrolled by the California Highway Patrol. For the most part, all county expressways are assigned a county route number and signed with the yellow-on-blue shields.
Quote from: myosh_tino on April 30, 2013, 04:03:44 AM
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on April 26, 2013, 10:14:08 AM
Regional differences in terminology are quite interesting. If the Eastern U.S. calls their freeways "expressways", that's cool I s'pose, since it sounds like actual expressways are pretty rare there and because that's what they are used to saying. In the Midwest, however, where expressways and freeways are two separate and distinct highway types, we need to have two separate words to describe them.
On the other hand, someone made a distinction of rural vs. urban, where:
Rural limited-access highways = "freeways"
Urban limited-access highways = "expressways"
This is not the case in California.
All controlled-access highways are considered freeways. Expressways are, for the most part, limited access but can have at-grade intersections. A good illustration of the difference between the two road types can be found in Santa Clara County. The county has a network of high-speed roads with speed limits of 45-50 MPH that have interchanges, at-grade signalized intersections and the occasional private driveway. All of these roads are called expressways (Lawrence Expressway, Capitol Expressway, Montague Expressway, etc) and are maintained by the county but patrolled by the California Highway Patrol. For the most part, all county expressways are assigned a county route number and signed with the yellow-on-blue shields.
Yep... this is a perfect example of the second type of expressway that I described above: "a partially-controlled, high-speed road that may have occasional at-grade intersections."
No love for "turnpike"?
Quote from: realjd on May 01, 2013, 09:12:44 PM
No love for "turnpike"?
When I was little, I thought all toll roads were called Turnpikes and everything else was a Freeway.
My working definitions:
Freeway: Fully controlled access, divided highway, in urban settings; or almost fully controlled access in rural settings (those cross roads in West Texas don't make me stop calling the highway a freeway).
Expressway: Only used in urban settings. Urban freeways could be called expressways, but so could four-lane arterials that are designed to carry higher-than-usual speed limits by means of fewer intersections.
I have no idea what to call two-lane highways that are fully or mostly access-controlled.
We usually use super-2. I think super-4 refers to a four lane, undivided freeway.
Quote from: vdeane on May 02, 2013, 03:29:58 PM
We usually use super-2. I think super-4 refers to a four lane, undivided freeway.
Except I've been on highways called "super-2" that had driveways and crossroads.
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 07:49:17 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 02, 2013, 03:29:58 PM
We usually use super-2. I think super-4 refers to a four lane, undivided freeway.
Except I've been on highways called "super-2" that had driveways and crossroads.
Yep. "Super-2" meaning two-lane freeway is a roadgeek invention.
I thought 'super-2' in general was a roadgeek invention.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2013, 09:25:51 PM
I thought 'super-2' in general was a roadgeek invention.
http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/rdw/super_2_highways.htm
http://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/highway-s-new-super-looks-great-but-not-a-super/article_eb67318e-1338-11e1-8348-001cc4c03286.html
http://safety.transportation.org/prgpub.aspx?pid=685
http://www.wdio.com/article/stories/s2972701.shtml
It's usually used for some sort of high-standard two-lane.
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 12:13:02 PMFreeway: Fully controlled access, divided highway, in urban settings; or almost fully controlled access in rural settings (those cross roads in West Texas don't make me stop calling the highway a freeway).
I don't make a distinction between urban and rural; I get around the west Texas/New Mexico driveway problem by treating them as one-sided RIRO interchanges. I will also call an undivided road that has full control of access a freeway, but always with a qualification that indicates a median or center barrier is not present (such as "Super Two freeway," "undivided four-lane highway with full access control," etc.).
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 02, 2013, 09:37:23 PMI get around the west Texas/New Mexico driveway problem by treating them as one-sided RIRO interchanges.
are there still any driveways on I-40 in New Mexico? they certainly haven't been signed since about 2005 (with the famous "TEMPORARY" signage), but I've never looked carefully. I know there are driveways with ranch gates in many places, like I-8 in Arizona, which are generally not mentioned.
that said, some of Texas's at-grades allow left turns. there is a paved median crossing, complete with YIELD signs.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2013, 10:02:37 PM
that said, some of Texas's at-grades allow left turns. there is a paved median crossing, complete with YIELD signs.
Example: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=31.189288,-105.419344&spn=0.002093,0.004128&gl=us&t=k&z=19&layer=c&cbll=31.189231,-105.419112&panoid=-jrW_PzUkgpAuXOLKgvUqw&cbp=12,297.84,,0,5.85
Quote from: NE2 on May 02, 2013, 09:23:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 07:49:17 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 02, 2013, 03:29:58 PM
We usually use super-2. I think super-4 refers to a four lane, undivided freeway.
Except I've been on highways called "super-2" that had driveways and crossroads.
Yep. "Super-2" meaning two-lane freeway is a roadgeek invention.
The AA Highway meets the conventional definition of a Super 2, for reference.
Another area east of the Mississippi that seems to like the term "freeway": Detroit. M-39 is the Southfield Freeway, M-10 (in part) is the John C. Lodge Freeway, M-8 the Davison Freeway, etc.
It seems that freeway means "free" as in "flow", not "free" as in "beer".
Quote from: NE2 on May 02, 2013, 10:26:31 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2013, 10:02:37 PM
that said, some of Texas's at-grades allow left turns. there is a paved median crossing, complete with YIELD signs.
Example: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=31.189288,-105.419344&spn=0.002093,0.004128&gl=us&t=k&z=19&layer=c&cbll=31.189231,-105.419112&panoid=-jrW_PzUkgpAuXOLKgvUqw&cbp=12,297.84,,0,5.85
Yikes... an at-grade intersection on an Interstate? Wow.
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on May 03, 2013, 10:28:43 AM
Yikes... an at-grade intersection on an Interstate? Wow.
For a bit extra yikes factor, the speed limit there is 80.
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on May 03, 2013, 10:28:43 AM
Yikes... an at-grade intersection on an Interstate? Wow.
it's no different than having an at-grade on, say, US-395 in the Sierras. in fact, given the excellent visibility (all flat land) and the lack of traffic, it is significantly safer.
Quote from: NE2 on May 02, 2013, 10:26:31 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2013, 10:02:37 PM
that said, some of Texas's at-grades allow left turns. there is a paved median crossing, complete with YIELD signs.
Example: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=31.189288,-105.419344&spn=0.002093,0.004128&gl=us&t=k&z=19&layer=c&cbll=31.189231,-105.419112&panoid=-jrW_PzUkgpAuXOLKgvUqw&cbp=12,297.84,,0,5.85
what is most interesting about that is the side road. pan to the north slightly and note what appears to a circular roadway and an elliptical one. any idea what their purpose is? truck turnarounds?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 03, 2013, 12:45:24 PM
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on May 03, 2013, 10:28:43 AM
Yikes... an at-grade intersection on an Interstate? Wow.
it's no different than having an at-grade on, say, US-395 in the Sierras. in fact, given the excellent visibility (all flat land) and the lack of traffic, it is significantly safer.
It is a lot different. U.S. highways are very often non-freeways and, therefore, have cross traffic with at-grade intersections. Interstates, on the other hand, are not supposed to have any cross traffic at all. The example shared was an
Interstate with an at-grade intersection.
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on May 03, 2013, 02:19:26 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 03, 2013, 12:45:24 PM
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on May 03, 2013, 10:28:43 AM
Yikes... an at-grade intersection on an Interstate? Wow.
it's no different than having an at-grade on, say, US-395 in the Sierras. in fact, given the excellent visibility (all flat land) and the lack of traffic, it is significantly safer.
It is a lot different. U.S. highways are very often non-freeways and, therefore, have cross traffic with at-grade intersections. Interstates, on the other hand, are not supposed to have any cross traffic at all. The example shared was an Interstate with an at-grade intersection.
Ever been to rural parts of the West? It's really not a big deal at all and it's a sensible place for ignoring some of the Interstate design standards in
limited situations where traffic volumes are very low, the expense of building an interchange would be utterly unwarranted, and it's unreasonable to force drivers to go many miles out of their way just to reach an interchange.
Quote from: A.J. Bertin on May 03, 2013, 02:19:26 PMInterstates, on the other hand, are not supposed to have any cross traffic at all. The example shared was an Interstate with an at-grade intersection.
if you're going to go after egregious interstate violations, see I-180 in Cheyenne or something.
I've had more cross traffic on I-684 in greater NYC than on I-10 in rural Texas. (some schmuck made a U-turn at a police crossing.)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 03, 2013, 12:47:02 PM
what is most interesting about that is the side road. pan to the north slightly and note what appears to a circular roadway and an elliptical one. any idea what their purpose is? truck turnarounds?
Keep panning - it looks like a stillborn residential development. Then it became a sludge dump: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/27/us/new-york-s-sewage-was-a-texas-town-s-gold.html
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2013, 10:02:37 PMare there still any driveways on I-40 in New Mexico? they certainly haven't been signed since about 2005 (with the famous "TEMPORARY" signage), but I've never looked carefully. I know there are driveways with ranch gates in many places, like I-8 in Arizona, which are generally not mentioned.
I remember there being at-grade driveways on I-40 west of the Rio Puerco bridge, but the last time I was on that road was in . . . 2005.
Quotethat said, some of Texas's at-grades allow left turns. there is a paved median crossing, complete with YIELD signs.
That is harder to handwave away. In principle you could treat them on the same basis as one of the loop ramps at I-10/I-20 (left exit, left entry), but my heart isn't really in it.
(There were left turns on the original Italian
autostrade, BTW. RIRO was a later innovation.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 10:51:51 AM
Quotethat said, some of Texas's at-grades allow left turns. there is a paved median crossing, complete with YIELD signs.
In principle you could treat them on the same basis as one of the loop ramps at I-10/I-20 (left exit, left entry), but my heart isn't really in it.
I don't think so. As we've had this discussion before, the loop ramp in the middle of I-10/I-20 functions as a large crossover. A crossover and a four-way intersection are not the same thing. The intersections agentsteel53 mentions allow for right-angle collisions, whereas (if we even consider it a crossover at all), the loop ramp in I-10/I-20 certainly does not.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 10:51:51 AM
I remember there being at-grade driveways on I-40 west of the Rio Puerco bridge, but the last time I was on that road was in . . . 2005.
I have been there as recently as 2012, and I have not noticed any. certainly none overtly marked, but there could be a few dirt turnoffs to ranch gates that I just don't notice at 80mph.
I remember noticing just such a gate, which led to some sort of radio/microwave/cellular facility, off I-8 a few years back - not one that is commonly discussed among the roadgeek crowd, but certainly a piece of property whose access seems to be I-8.
I don't remember exactly where, other than that it is east of Telegraph Pass, and on the south side of the road.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2013, 12:40:34 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 10:51:51 AMI remember there being at-grade driveways on I-40 west of the Rio Puerco bridge, but the last time I was on that road was in . . . 2005.
I have been there as recently as 2012, and I have not noticed any. certainly none overtly marked, but there could be a few dirt turnoffs to ranch gates that I just don't notice at 80mph.
I found one just now in a casual search of Google Maps satellite imagery--one that permits left turns, no less:
I-40 somewhere east of NM 6 interchange but west of end of Central Ave. frontage road outside Albuquerque (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Albuquerque,+NM&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Albuquerque,+Bernalillo,+New+Mexico&ll=35.00674,-107.041041&spn=0.001105,0.002411&t=k&z=19&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=35.00674,-107.041041&panoid=TCc-k_8TPMcnNVGq_GVO6Q&cbp=12,325.6,,0,12.35)
Intersection warning sign for traffic upstream on I-40 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Albuquerque,+NM&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Albuquerque,+Bernalillo,+New+Mexico&ll=35.007147,-107.039736&spn=0.001105,0.002411&t=k&z=19&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=35.007186,-107.03961&panoid=CA4e_0HRQruqPPsENqx4_g&cbp=12,255.57,,0,14.09)
imagery date April 2009. I believe it is gone; I'd be surprised if I didn't notice it, since I was explicitly looking out for it.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 15, 2013, 01:21:21 PMimagery date April 2009. I believe it is gone; I'd be surprised if I didn't notice it, since I was explicitly looking out for it.
2009 is the date of the StreetView imagery, but the 2013 satellite imagery still shows the driveways.
The intersection warning sign is ground-mounted, so you would likely have missed it if you had been in the middle of overtaking an 18-wheeler at the time you passed it--this length of I-40 has high truck volumes.
Can anyone read the blade under the warning sign? My bad eyes make it out as "Temporary." If so, that may help explain.
Quote from: theline on May 15, 2013, 01:38:44 PMCan anyone read the blade under the warning sign? My bad eyes make it out as "Temporary." If so, that may help explain.
It does say "TEMPORARY," but then it said that in 2005 too. I think it is a figleaf to satisfy the FHWA requirement that driveways (or other at-grade accesses to Interstates) be temporary in character; i.e., there must be an intention to stop up the driveway or access at some point in the future, even if that time never arrives.
What about the white sign in the median at the intersection?
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2013, 11:18:32 PM
The AA Highway meets the conventional definition of a Super 2, for reference.
If so, then just about all of Kentucky's new construction in the last 35 years meets that definition.
I always thought a Super-2 was a controlled-access (or limited-access, if you prefer) route like the eastern end of the Mountain Parkway, or the Daniel Boone Parkway for most of its length.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2013, 01:58:29 PM
Quote from: theline on May 15, 2013, 01:38:44 PMCan anyone read the blade under the warning sign? My bad eyes make it out as "Temporary." If so, that may help explain.
It does say "TEMPORARY," but then it said that in 2005 too. I think it is a figleaf to satisfy the FHWA requirement that driveways (or other at-grade accesses to Interstates) be temporary in character; i.e., there must be an intention to stop up the driveway or access at some point in the future, even if that time never arrives.
It said TEMPORARY back when I was in high school as well, since I specifically remember that intersection from a family vacation. That would have been the mid- to late-1990s. My dad made the comment clear back then that he doubted it was actually "temporary". Guess he was right.
Quote from: NE2 on May 15, 2013, 02:19:24 PM
What about the white sign in the median at the intersection?
Not sure. It's different from the standard "KEEP OFF MEDIAN" sign.
Quote from: kphoger on May 15, 2013, 05:22:12 PMIt said TEMPORARY back when I was in high school as well, since I specifically remember that intersection from a family vacation. That would have been the mid- to late-1990s. My dad made the comment clear back then that he doubted it was actually "temporary". Guess he was right.
on a geological scale, all infrastructure is temporary.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2013, 10:02:37 PMI know there are driveways with ranch gates in many places, like I-8 in Arizona, which are generally not mentioned.
approximately at mile 96.6 on I-8 is this ranch gate, with an implied at-gate crossing. at least, there is at-grade left-turning traffic.
http://goo.gl/maps/NiIK1
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 01, 2013, 02:56:41 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2013, 10:02:37 PMI know there are driveways with ranch gates in many places, like I-8 in Arizona, which are generally not mentioned.
approximately at mile 96.6 on I-8 is this ranch gate, with an implied at-gate crossing. at least, there is at-grade left-turning traffic.
http://goo.gl/maps/NiIK1
Turn the pegman around, and you also see an "implied" U turn spot. :)
Quote from: kphoger on July 01, 2013, 04:50:59 PM
Turn the pegman around, and you also see an "implied" U turn spot. :)
did not notice that one! just where one could make a left turn directly in line with the ranch gate.
Depends on the toll road. One with toll gates every few miles on the mainline? That's not very free of at grade interruptions, now is it? No, definitely not, so it's not a freeway.
One with a gate at each end and nothing in between, operating on the ticket system, or an all-electronic tollway? Certainly qualifies as a freeway.
Remember, kids: the 'free' in 'freeway' refers to free as in freedom [from at-grade intersections/interruptions] not free as in beer.
^ Actually the "free" refers to free-flowing traffic, not freedom from interruptions. Except for the toll barriers, a tollway remains free-flowing in normal operating conditions.