Obviously, we all know that BGS use control cities, laying out the cities accessed by staying along said route.
But I noticed that while looking at highway pictures from the Chicago area, that the freeways use control STATES. For example, a control state on I-80 westbound entering Illinois from Indiana is Iowa. 294 Northbound? Destination: Wisconsin.
Are there other areas where control states are used instead of a city(s)? I haven't done too much traveling in and around the northeast, so I imagine this maybe is used up there due to close proximity of smaller states like CT, MA, NH, et al.
Eastbound I-74 has "Kentucky" as the control state for I-275 south as you approach Cincinnati.
The US 50 ramp to I-275 in the latter's only Indiana interchange lists "Ohio" and "Kentucky" on the overhead guide signs.
I think "Kentucky" may also be in limited use along I-75 southbound in Cincinnati. Really, it makes more sense and is more economical than listing both Louisville (I-71) and Lexington (I-75).
Then there's "N.H.-Maine" in Massachusetts. And "To All Maine Points" in New Hampshire.
Northbound 101 at the 101/199 interchange has "Oregon Coast" as the control destination on the sign.
Rick
Along the PA Turnpike, mainly the I-276 portion, the control destination on most of the BGS' is indeed New Jersey for the eastbound direction.
On the opposite end of the state, the westernmost control destination for I-76 along the PA Turnpike is Ohio.
Delaware has been used as a control destination along I-295 southbound in New Jersey.
There's one or two pull-through BGS' along the westbound Mass Pike (I-90) that still list New York as a control destination.
Many BGS' along I-95 northbound from Baltimore northward to the Delaware State Line list New York as a control destination.
In Delaware, BGS' for I-295 northbound list NJ - NY as control destinations.
There's also Canada as a "control nation" for I-96 East.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.staticflickr.com%2F6159%2F6236034901_c9d14a6462_z.jpg&hash=11133fc7adeae8f17302f3f1df23ce6ba03314df)
I think I've seen photos before with Mexico used as a control nation...
"Wisconsin" is the control city state for both I-535 & US 2 in Duluth.
"Illinois" is the control for I-55/64/70/US-40 crossing the Poplar Street Bridge in Saint Louis.
The Indiana Toll Road has a control of "Ohio" for eastbound traffic. The signs used to read "Chicago and West" and "Ohio and East". Now it's just "Chicago" and "Ohio".
Portions of northbound I-81 in New York also use "Canada." I do not remember whether that begins before or after you hit Watertown, but I suspect it's after.
I recall the signs for I-10 on southbound I-65 in the Mobile area directing drivers west to Mississippi and east to Florida. I have not been there since July 1997, so I don't know if that's still the case.
Regarding I-95 in Maryland, I might be wrong, but I always interpreted "New York" on those signs as referring to the city, not the state. As a practical matter both interpretations are correct, of course.
Some signs in the Montreal area use either "USA," "New York" (in one case with a hyphen as "New-York"; in almost all cases coupled with an I-87 shield), and "Vermont" (coupled with an I-89 shield).
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 11:36:12 AMRegarding I-95 in Maryland, I might be wrong, but I always interpreted "New York" on those signs as referring to the city, not the state. As a practical matter both interpretations are correct, of course.
True, but in the case of the Mass Pike (I-90) westbound; BGS' for Exit 9 (I-84 westbound Sturbridge) indeed are listed as
New York City or
NY City eliminating any doubt whereas the earlier-metioned signage along the Boston Extension list the more ambiguous
New York reference. Note: this control destination used to be applied along I-90 westbound all the way out ot Exit 10 (I-290/395/MA 12 Auburn) interchange.
The WB Staten Island Expressway has "New Jersey" at least once as the control state.
Not exactly a control state, but in Georgia on I-75 SB, the signs leading up to I-475 around Macon used to read "Bypass to Florida" (By-pass? I think I remember a hyphen). This was later modified to read "Bypass to Valdosta". I think that was more a case of "why give the glory to another state" thing than a "city vs. state" reason, though.
Some highways in Maryland have a control state (region?) of "Northern Virginia" or "N Virginia" on pull-through signs. The gore sign where the HOV lanes split between I-270 and the spur used to read "VA", and only that!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.interstate-guide.com%2Fimages270%2Fi-270_md_st_06.jpg&hash=228479b9645b5e2438626e16b3833f5491681704)
QuoteI think I've seen photos before with Mexico used as a control nation...
I swear I've seen it used in San Diego when I was a kid. On I-5? Maybe along 805? I think nowadays it's Tijuana, but I think there used to be at least one that simply read Mexico.
I forgot about the signs in Maryland (pretty pathetic of me).
That sign "lepidopteran" posted is currently the only sign that refers to the I-270 spur as "SPUR." I seem to recall there used to be a few more of them, but they were retired in favor of marking that segment as "TO I-495 SOUTH" or "TO I-270 NORTH."
Old sign on I-95 in The Bronx used to use "New England" as a control region. Newer ones just use New Haven. Signs on I-84 W in Danbury, CT use NY State as a control, but some of them have been switched to Newburgh. Technically, any sign that has New York as a control is using a control state, althogh we can pretty much assume it means City.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 01, 2013, 12:39:33 PMSigns on I-84 W in Danbury, CT use NY State as a control, but some of them have been switched to Newburgh. Technically, any sign that has New York as a control is using a control state, although we can pretty much assume it means City.
I believe the recent BGS replacement contract along I-84 in that area has since replaced all the old
N Y State BGS'.
That's probably the one case where the word
State was actually applied to the
N Y or
New York reference.
In the Trenton, NJ area, the small guide signs on the cross-streets entering I-95 south still list Pennsylvania as the control city.
Signs at Exit 3 of I-78 near Phillipsburg might also still do that for westbound panels.
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 01, 2013, 11:51:08 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 11:36:12 AMRegarding I-95 in Maryland, I might be wrong, but I always interpreted "New York" on those signs as referring to the city, not the state. As a practical matter both interpretations are correct, of course.
True, but in the case of the Mass Pike (I-90) westbound; BGS' for Exit 9 (I-84 westbound Sturbridge) indeed are listed as New York City or NY City eliminating any doubt whereas the earlier-metioned signage along the Boston Extension list the more ambiguous New York reference. Note: this control destination used to be applied along I-90 westbound all the way out ot Exit 10 (I-290/395/MA 12 Auburn) interchange.
I've always taken the "New York" that appears on signs along I-95 and I-87 (as well as I-78 and I-80) to mean the city, as it would be strange to see it on highways that go nowhere near that metropolis (like I-81, I-90 and US 15/Future I-99).
At the southern terminus of I-65 in Mobile, Alabama, the destinations for I-10 east and west now read Florida and Mississippi rather then Pensacola and Pascagoula.
Quote from: bassoon1986 on May 01, 2013, 02:18:28 PM
At the southern terminus of I-65 in Mobile, Alabama, the destinations for I-10 east and west now read Florida and Mississippi rather then Pensacola and Pascagoula.
that is excellent news. for someone out of the area, the two control cities look far too identical to be able to provide clear decision-making at high speed.
In Kansas City, MO, both I-670 WB (in the downtown loop) and I-635 SB use "Kansas" as the control point, as both cross into Kansas City, KS.
GSV from the I-635/I-29 interchange (3.5 miles from the state line): http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=39.19014,-94.612294&spn=0.004831,0.006899&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.190204,-94.612498&panoid=jz6RIHDL1Dzibb6MynTbyQ&cbp=12,298.73,,0,10.5
Quote from: bassoon1986 on May 01, 2013, 02:18:28 PM
At the southern terminus of I-65 in Mobile, Alabama, the destinations for I-10 east and west now read Florida and Mississippi rather then Pensacola and Pascagoula.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that they were like that in July 1997. Did they change them to the city names since then and subsequently change them back? Your use of the word "now" is what makes me curious.
I'm so sorry, when I posted that I missed seeing yours further up. My apologies. I remember seeing the city names present in 2004. I think the change was recent, like maybe the past 4 years?
Quote from: bassoon1986 on May 01, 2013, 03:02:34 PM
I'm so sorry, when I posted that I missed seeing yours further up. My apologies. I remember seeing the city names present in 2004. I think the change was recent, like maybe the past 4 years?
There's nothing to apologize for. I think your post raises a very interesting question and your reply just makes it all the more interesting. I drove through there on Thursday, July 3, 1997, and when I passed through in the other direction the following Sunday, July 6, I continued east on I-10 into Florida. I have not been through there since and am unlikely to pass that way again anytime soon due to the very low Wife Acceptance Factor for drives of that length (in 1997, I was single). The reason I remember the dates of my prior trip so precisely is that in the summer of 1997 I was working for a law firm in Montgomery, Alabama, and I had never been to New Orleans. So I drove down to New Orleans for the July 4 weekend because July 4 was on a Friday.
Anyway, your first post intrigued me because I quite clearly remember the BGSs for "Florida" and "Mississippi." We don't see that sort of thing too often in Virginia or North Carolina (where I was a student at the time). Your reply intrigues me all the more because it indicates they apparently changed the signs after my trip but later changed them back. That makes me wonder (a) why they changed them and (b) what made them change them back.
Quote from: formulanone on May 01, 2013, 11:24:26 AM
There's also Canada as a "control nation" for I-96 East.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.staticflickr.com%2F6159%2F6236034901_c9d14a6462_z.jpg&hash=11133fc7adeae8f17302f3f1df23ce6ba03314df)
Not to mention God Damn River Avenue! :sombrero:
Quote from: formulanone on May 01, 2013, 11:24:26 AM
I think I've seen photos before with Mexico used as a control nation...
Yes, I have seen them in both TX and CA as well.
SCOTLAND (http://goo.gl/maps/89it0)
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on May 01, 2013, 03:49:42 PM
Not to mention God Damn River Avenue! :sombrero:
I wasn't sure exactly what the "Gd" was (God? Good? Grid?), when I first saw it. Not a very good abbreviation at all.
Come to think of it, that's also a weird location for the exit gore sign.
Quote from: formulanone on May 01, 2013, 04:28:11 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on May 01, 2013, 03:49:42 PM
Not to mention God Damn River Avenue! :sombrero:
I wasn't sure exactly what the "Gd" was (God? Good? Grid?), when I first saw it. Not a very good abbreviation at all.
Come to think of it, that's also a weird location for the exit gore sign.
"Gd" is for "Grand". It's a very common abbreviation for Grand in Michigan - Gd Rapids, Gd Ledge, Gd River Ave, etc.
Quote from: Brandon on May 01, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
"Gd" is for "Grand". It's a very common abbreviation for Grand in Michigan - Gd Rapids, Gd Ledge, Gd River Ave, etc.
Yeah, that's swell if you're from Michigan and know the names of local roads and communities. But, then again, that's not really the point of directional signs, is it? No, they are supposed to guide those who
don't know their way around. In that way, the Gd abbreviation is deserving of ridicule (or at least comment).
Yes, I know, we already have a thread about cryptic signs.....
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on May 02, 2013, 04:37:55 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 01, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
"Gd" is for "Grand". It's a very common abbreviation for Grand in Michigan - Gd Rapids, Gd Ledge, Gd River Ave, etc.
Yeah, that's swell if you're from Michigan and know the names of local roads and communities. But, then again, that's not really the point of directional signs, is it? No, they are supposed to guide those who don't know their way around. In that way, the Gd abbreviation is deserving of ridicule (or at least comment).
Yes, I know, we already have a thread about cryptic signs.....
Funny, I use the abbreviation all the time.
Gd Cayman, Gd Turk, Gd Ave, etc.
Maybe it is because I am a Michigander living in Illinois.
Quote from: Brandon on May 02, 2013, 04:40:04 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on May 02, 2013, 04:37:55 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 01, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
"Gd" is for "Grand". It's a very common abbreviation for Grand in Michigan - Gd Rapids, Gd Ledge, Gd River Ave, etc.
Yeah, that's swell if you're from Michigan and know the names of local roads and communities. But, then again, that's not really the point of directional signs, is it? No, they are supposed to guide those who don't know their way around. In that way, the Gd abbreviation is deserving of ridicule (or at least comment).
Yes, I know, we already have a thread about cryptic signs.....
Funny, I use the abbreviation all the time.
Gd Cayman, Gd Turk, Gd Ave, etc.
Maybe it is because I am a Michigander living in Illinois.
I'd never seen it before going to Michigan, and have never seen it otherwise. It's just you.
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2013, 05:54:06 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 02, 2013, 04:40:04 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on May 02, 2013, 04:37:55 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 01, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
"Gd" is for "Grand". It's a very common abbreviation for Grand in Michigan - Gd Rapids, Gd Ledge, Gd River Ave, etc.
Yeah, that's swell if you're from Michigan and know the names of local roads and communities. But, then again, that's not really the point of directional signs, is it? No, they are supposed to guide those who don't know their way around. In that way, the Gd abbreviation is deserving of ridicule (or at least comment).
Yes, I know, we already have a thread about cryptic signs.....
Funny, I use the abbreviation all the time.
Gd Cayman, Gd Turk, Gd Ave, etc.
Maybe it is because I am a Michigander living in Illinois.
I'd never seen it before going to Michigan, and have never seen it otherwise. It's just you.
I was puzzled for a moment the first time I saw Gd on a BGS. I only figured it out because I
knew the road went to Grand Rapids. It's a very poor abbreviation for non-Michiganders. (BTW, I just ran a spell check of this message, which did not object to Gd, oddly enough.)
Oh, come on.. If you were looking for your exit "Grand River Avenue", and you saw a sign for "Gd River Ave", would you really not know that was your exit? And, if you were looking for your exit "Stumpmonger Highway", and you saw a sign for "Gd River Ave", would you really wonder if it might be your exit?
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 08:26:29 PM
Oh, come on.. If you were looking for your exit "Grand River Avenue", and you saw a sign for "Gd River Ave", would you really not know that was your exit? And, if you were looking for your exit "Stumpmonger Highway", and you saw a sign for "Gd River Ave", would you really wonder if it might be your exit?
God River Avenue? Glad River? The MUTCD is very clear on what can and cannot be abbreviated for just this reason.
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 08:26:29 PM
Oh, come on.. If you were looking for your exit "Grand River Avenue", and you saw a sign for "Gd River Ave", would you really not know that was your exit? And, if you were looking for your exit "Stumpmonger Highway", and you saw a sign for "Gd River Ave", would you really wonder if it might be your exit?
If you only vaguely remembered that you wanted a Grand something you might not figure it out.
If I simply saw that sign without having any other information I'd have assumed it stood for "Good."
(Yes, I know people down South who use "G-D" as a substitute for a vulgarity, but I've always seen it written with that hyphen like that–which, in turn, I've also seen some observant Jews do in reference to the word "God" under the extension of the principle of not writing nor saying the Tetragrammaton. But I'd never have assumed there would be a road whose name used the vulgarity nor a road with "God" in the name that someone felt the need to abbreviate on a road sign.)
Quote from: Steve on May 02, 2013, 11:19:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 02, 2013, 08:26:29 PM
Oh, come on.. If you were looking for your exit "Grand River Avenue", and you saw a sign for "Gd River Ave", would you really not know that was your exit? And, if you were looking for your exit "Stumpmonger Highway", and you saw a sign for "Gd River Ave", would you really wonder if it might be your exit?
God River Avenue? Glad River? The MUTCD is very clear on what can and cannot be abbreviated for just this reason.
If it was me doing an abreviation of Grand it would be "Grd" or "Gr", not "Gd"
On I-70 West from "GD. JCT., CO" :) (Grand Junction) westward, Utah is used as the control "state". Green River used to be the primary control city, but newer CDOT sign upgrades have gone with simply Utah.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 01, 2013, 12:39:33 PM
Old sign on I-95 in The Bronx used to use "New England" as a control region. Newer ones just use New Haven. Signs on I-84 W in Danbury, CT use NY State as a control, but some of them have been switched to Newburgh. Technically, any sign that has New York as a control is using a control state, althogh we can pretty much assume it means City.
Until the 1980s sometime, the 87/287 split going south/east after the Tappan Zee Bridge used New England as a control region for 287 East.
The control destination on I-95 North in the Bronx and/or Manhattan was changed some years after that from "New England" to "New Haven," which makes sense, but going south it went from "New Jersey" to "Trenton," which was not only not directly reachable on 95, but was far from a major destination from there. "Newark" or even "Philadelphia" would have been a much better substitute.
Of course, any of these are more specific than the Mass Pike signs only just replaced this past year that used "Points West." (I was the only one that found it funny when I said "Mass Pike Points West? That all depends which way you're facing!")
Quote from: thenetwork on May 03, 2013, 01:52:54 PM
On I-70 West from "GD. JCT., CO" :) (Grand Junction) westward, Utah is used as the control "state". Green River used to be the primary control city, but newer CDOT sign upgrades have gone with simply Utah.
That's Gr. Jct. to you, son! :-D
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on May 03, 2013, 04:14:52 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on May 03, 2013, 01:52:54 PM
On I-70 West from "GD. JCT., CO" :) (Grand Junction) westward, Utah is used as the control "state". Green River used to be the primary control city, but newer CDOT sign upgrades have gone with simply Utah.
That's Gr. Jct. to you, son! :-D
Great Junction? Hence why MDOT uses Gd for Grand as Gr is Great.
Many of the old BGS on the Major Deegan Expressway (Interstate 87) in the City of New York used to say "Thruway Upstate" (with upward pointing arrow) and the control "region." To many City residents, "Upstate" was a whole 'nother country! :-D
Quote from: xcellntbuy on May 03, 2013, 05:03:13 PM
Many of the old BGS on the Major Deegan Expressway (Interstate 87) in the City of New York used to say "Thruway Upstate" (with upward pointing arrow) and the control "region." To many City residents, "Upstate" was a whole 'nother country! :-D
"Upstate" means anything north of the Bronx.
"Actually, I thought New Jersey was the West!" -Billy Joel
Quote from: NE2 on May 03, 2013, 05:09:32 PM
"Actually, I thought New Jersey was the West!" -Billy Joel
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmappery.com%2Fmaps%2FA-View-of-World-from-9th-Avenue-Map.mediumthumb.jpg&hash=7a209b5289febcf3b945ed3fd2685d8537ebceb4)
Quote from: Brandon on May 03, 2013, 04:58:03 PM
Great Junction? Hence why MDOT uses Gd for Grand as Gr is Great.
NSW prefers to use 'GT' as an abbreviation for Great.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fozroads.com.au%2FNSW%2FHighways%2FGtWestern%2F13.JPG&hash=c56115e0f49b8bfdefabdbff36af7823ed04667b)
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 03, 2013, 02:27:44 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 01, 2013, 12:39:33 PM
Old sign on I-95 in The Bronx used to use "New England" as a control region. Newer ones just use New Haven. Signs on I-84 W in Danbury, CT use NY State as a control, but some of them have been switched to Newburgh. Technically, any sign that has New York as a control is using a control state, althogh we can pretty much assume it means City.
Until the 1980s sometime, the 87/287 split going south/east after the Tappan Zee Bridge used New England as a control region for 287 East.
The control destination on I-95 North in the Bronx and/or Manhattan was changed some years after that from "New England" to "New Haven," which makes sense, but going south it went from "New Jersey" to "Trenton," which was not only not directly reachable on 95, but was far from a major destination from there. "Newark" or even "Philadelphia" would have been a much better substitute.
Of course, any of these are more specific than the Mass Pike signs only just replaced this past year that used "Points West." (I was the only one that found it funny when I said "Mass Pike Points West? That all depends which way you're facing!")
Maybe NYC or NYS forgot about that I-95 gap in NJ. Since everything west of the Hudson River is way out west and all. :biggrin: I do agree that if the control city was going to change to "Trenton" they should have just left it as "New Jersey".
On I-95 on the New England Thruway many pull through signs list Conn. as the northboun control city instead of New Haven (the practice). Southbound, I-95 sometimes lists New Jersey instead of GW Bridge as you start to see the bridge. I think states are fine if there is no one city that is recognizable. New York often is the city, but in CT we use N.Y. City to clarify
Eastern Long Island On Most BG Exit, Directional & Pull Thru Signs: Eastbound Belt Parkway, Eastbound Southern State Parkway, Eastbound Jackie Robinson (Interboro) Parkway, Eastbound Grand Central/Northern State Parkway & Eastbound Queens Midtown Expressway/Long Island Expressway.
Some Have Been Replaced or Greenedout with (Except Belt Parkway & Jackie Robinson Parkway):
Southern State Parkway: Islip/Heckscher State Park
Grand Central Parkway/Northern State Parkway: Hauppauge
Queens Midtown Expressway/Long Island Expressway: Riverhead
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on May 01, 2013, 02:18:28 PM
At the southern terminus of I-65 in Mobile, Alabama, the destinations for I-10 east and west now read Florida and Mississippi rather then Pensacola and Pascagoula.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that they were like that in July 1997. Did they change them to the city names since then and subsequently change them back? Your use of the word "now" is what makes me curious.
I remember this being the case as well. I haven't been in Mobile since the early 2000s, despite being about three hours away. The earlier point about Pascagoula and Pensacola looking somewhat alike is probably the reason the states are used, but perhaps ALDOT could use Biloxi or Gulfport as the control city, maybe even New Orleans.
The same with Denton being used for both I-35E & I-35W in Texas over Oklahoma City.
Alabama and LA still have reminents of when I-10 was not yet completed in Mississippi on their signage is why the unusual use of Pascagoula in AL or Bay St. Louis in LA instead of the larger cities.
New Jersey faces the same with Easton being used on I-78 from when it ended in Greenwich, NJ for many decades and from there Easton is the next major city along US 22. Even though I-78 goes to Easton indirectly and is not far from its epicenter, if it was built years ago as a whole interstate, you might of seen Allentown as primary control city for I-78 west of Clinton or in places east of Clinton that have previously used Easton as a control city.
Then you have Los Angeles used for I-40 west of Flagstaff, AZ because the old Route 66 went there before I-40 was completed. The same for I-15 in Las Vegas using LA as a control city, because US 91 (I-15's old US route) originally went there or at least close enough to it. Both interstates, respectively do not go to Los Angeles as we all know and I-40 requires the use of two other interstates to make it there.
In a way I wish control regions were more accepted for use on BGSs because, at least in the NYC area, we tend to think of things in terms of region more than of individual municipalities in terms of destinations from highways within the city. For that reason I've always liked the use of "Eastern LI" on the LIE and Belt Parkway (in addition to Riverhead on the former), and previously the use of New England instead of New Haven (or even just Connecticut for that matter). I'd prefer they used Upstate (or Hudson Valley) rather than Albany (because, really, how many drivers are actually destined for Albany?). Also logical for use in the region are New Jersey and Westchester.
Quote from: motorway on May 05, 2013, 11:08:41 PM
In a way I wish control regions were more accepted for use on BGSs because, at least in the NYC area, we tend to think of things in terms of region more than of individual municipalities in terms of destinations from highways within the city. For that reason I've always liked the use of "Eastern LI" on the LIE and Belt Parkway (in addition to Riverhead on the former), and previously the use of New England instead of New Haven (or even just Connecticut for that matter). I'd prefer they used Upstate (or Hudson Valley) rather than Albany (because, really, how many drivers are actually destined for Albany?). Also logical for use in the region are New Jersey and Westchester.
I saw on GSV that some pull through signs on the L.I.E use both Riverhead and Eastern L.I as control points. I think that maybe both should be used on signs in places like Upstate and Albany for I-87 on the Deegan. Heck even Texas uses (or used back in 97) both Corpus Christi and Rio Grande Valley on some I-37 pull through signage south of San Antonio.
Although, as living in New Jersey I always got the left out feeling when NY or PA did not recognize our major cities as control points and got the feeling that our state is one giant city in itself by being referred to as "New Jersey" on Cross Bronx Expressway signs. Therefore I can see the point of why the MUTCD is doing what they are in this latest campaign.
Anyway, what really interests me is why NJDOT has directional signs for New England on I-287 North near Mahwah, NJ stating:
To New England use I-87 North to I-84 East
instead of staying on I-287?
Now true, it does go there and it may bypass all of the growing Westchester region which has enough traffic of its own, but if you are destined for Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, New London and all other points in Southern Connecticut, Interstate 84 is not the way to go to accomplish that. It would be better if the sign gave two choices to use either I-84 or stay on I-287 to I-95.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 06, 2013, 08:51:55 AM
Quote from: motorway on May 05, 2013, 11:08:41 PM
In a way I wish control regions were more accepted for use on BGSs because, at least in the NYC area, we tend to think of things in terms of region more than of individual municipalities in terms of destinations from highways within the city. For that reason I've always liked the use of "Eastern LI" on the LIE and Belt Parkway (in addition to Riverhead on the former), and previously the use of New England instead of New Haven (or even just Connecticut for that matter). I'd prefer they used Upstate (or Hudson Valley) rather than Albany (because, really, how many drivers are actually destined for Albany?). Also logical for use in the region are New Jersey and Westchester.
I saw on GSV that some pull through signs on the L.I.E use both Riverhead and Eastern L.I as control points. I think that maybe both should be used on signs in places like Upstate and Albany for I-87 on the Deegan. Heck even Texas uses (or used back in 97) both Corpus Christi and Rio Grande Valley on some I-37 pull through signage south of San Antonio.
Although, as living in New Jersey I always got the left out feeling when NY or PA did not recognize our major cities as control points and got the feeling that our state is one giant city in itself by being referred to as "New Jersey" on Cross Bronx Expressway signs. Therefore I can see the point of why the MUTCD is doing what they are in this latest campaign.
Anyway, what really interests me is why NJDOT has directional signs for New England on I-287 North near Mahwah, NJ stating:
To New England use I-87 North to I-84 East
instead of staying on I-287?
Now true, it does go there and it may bypass all of the growing Westchester region which has enough traffic of its own, but if you are destined for Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, New London and all other points in Southern Connecticut, Interstate 84 is not the way to go to accomplish that. It would be better if the sign gave two choices to use either I-84 or stay on I-287 to I-95.
And what of parts of Vermont and Western MA? Wouldn't it be easier to stay on I-87 north of I-84 to get there?
Quote from: roadman65 on May 06, 2013, 08:51:55 AMAnyway, what really interests me is why NJDOT has directional signs for New England on I-287 North near Mahwah, NJ stating:
To New England use I-87 North to I-84 East
instead of staying on I-287?
Now true, it does go there and it may bypass all of the growing Westchester region which has enough traffic of its own, but if you are destined for Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, New London and all other points in Southern Connecticut, Interstate 84 is not the way to go to accomplish that. It would be better if the sign gave two choices to use either I-84 or stay on I-287 to I-95.
As you stated, the intent of those supplemental BGS' (there's also a NYSDOT or NYST spec'd version of that BGS closer to the state-line as well BTW) is to divert as much
through-traffic away from the Tappan Zee/Metropolitan NYC-area as much as possible. Granted, for one bound for VT, southern CT, and/or Western-MA; the posted advisory/suggestion need not apply to them. It's geared towards the
majority of New England-bound travelers in mind.
After all, one is
required to use their brains to know whether a particular guidance sign message applies to them or not.
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 01, 2013, 11:51:08 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 11:36:12 AMRegarding I-95 in Maryland, I might be wrong, but I always interpreted "New York" on those signs as referring to the city, not the state. As a practical matter both interpretations are correct, of course.
True, but in the case of the Mass Pike (I-90) westbound; BGS' for Exit 9 (I-84 westbound Sturbridge) indeed are listed as New York City or NY City eliminating any doubt whereas the earlier-metioned signage along the Boston Extension list the more ambiguous New York reference. Note: this control destination used to be applied along I-90 westbound all the way out ot Exit 10 (I-290/395/MA 12 Auburn) interchange.
There's still
at least one sign on the MassPike that uses "New York" (without City) as a control destination. It's the BGS on the WB entrance ramp from Copley Square in Boston.
Post corrected 5-6-2013 to reflect PHLBOS's observation regarding additional existing I-90 pull-thru signs with just "New York" - RM
Quote from: roadman on May 06, 2013, 10:13:33 AMThere's still one sign on the MassPike that uses "New York" (without City) as a control destination. It's the BGS on the WB entrance ramp from Copley Square in Boston.
I didn't know about that one. The ones I was referring to earlier were the pull-through BGS' at Exit 20 (Allston-Brighton-Cambridge) and Exit 15 (I-95/MA 30/128). Those read
*Mass Pike shield* 90 WEST Worcester New York. The one at Exit 15 erroneously has a smallish capital
T in the
Worcester line.
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 06, 2013, 11:34:58 AM
Quote from: roadman on May 06, 2013, 10:13:33 AMThere's still one sign on the MassPike that uses "New York" (without City) as a control destination. It's the BGS on the WB entrance ramp from Copley Square in Boston.
I didn't know about that one. The ones I was referring to earlier were the pull-through BGS' at Exit 20 (Allston-Brighton-Cambridge) and Exit 15 (I-95/MA 30/128). Those read *Mass Pike shield* 90 WEST Worcester New York. The one at Exit 15 erroneously has a smallish capital T in the Worcester line.
You are correct. However, note that the WB pull-thru sign at Exit 20 was replaced with Fast Lane and Cash Only signs some time ago. In addition, the entire WB structure was subsequently removed in August of 2012 (my sources tell me the removal was due to problems found during an inspection). The WB pull-thru sign at Exit 15 is still in place, however, the signs and structure at this location are due to be replaced shortly (again, due to problems found during an inspection).
It's my understanding that the new pull thru sign to be installed at Exit 15 WB will read "90 (MassPike logo) Worcester Albany NY", and that the structure WB at Exit 20 will not be replaced until the viaduct is re-decked later this decade.
Quote from: roadman on May 06, 2013, 12:50:40 PMHowever, note that the WB pull-thru sign at Exit 20 was replaced with Fast Lane and Cash Only signs some time ago. In addition, the entire WB structure was subsequently removed in August of 2012 (my sources tell me the removal was due to problems found during an inspection). The WB pull-thru sign at Exit 15 is still in place, however, the signs and structure at this location are due to be replaced shortly (again, due to problems found during an inspection).
It's my understanding that the new pull thru sign to be installed at Exit 15 WB will read "90 (MassPike logo) Worcester Albany NY", and that the structure WB at Exit 20 will not be replaced until the viaduct is re-decked later this decade.
I forgot about the one at Exit 20 being removed.
Given that most of the I-90 West BGS' signage from Boston to Exit 12 list
Worcester and
Springfield as its destinations; I'm surprised that the replacement pull-through BGS at Exit 15 wouldn't follow suit.
At present, most BGS' that list
Albany on the BGS for I-90 West, from Exit 11A to Exit 1, do not include
NY in the Albany listing.
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 06, 2013, 02:10:00 PM
At present, most BGS' that list Albany on the BGS for I-90 West, from Exit 11A to Exit 1, do not include NY in the Albany listing.
Former MassHighway and current MassDOT convention is to include the state abbreviation for destinations outside of Massachusetts. The former Turnpike Authority didn't follow that practice.
Also, I've been told by a reliable source that, when the I-90 signs are updated beginning in 2015, most new pull-thru signs will have two destinations. So the westbound signs will read "Worcester Albany NY" or "Springfield Albany NY" depending on the section of the Pike you're on. I suspect signs west of Springfield will just have "Albany NY".
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 01, 2013, 12:25:04 PM
QuoteI think I've seen photos before with Mexico used as a control nation...
I swear I've seen it used in San Diego when I was a kid. On I-5? Maybe along 805? I think nowadays it's Tijuana, but I think there used to be at least one that simply read Mexico.
I think there's control signs for Mexico at I-10's junction with Arizona 85. I know there's such signs in the Gila Bend area, where I-8 and Arizona 85 meet.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 01, 2013, 12:25:04 PM
QuoteI think I've seen photos before with Mexico used as a control nation...
http://goo.gl/maps/jc3QF (http://goo.gl/maps/jc3QF) :hmmm:
http://goo.gl/maps/AAoUE
Here, west of Allentown, I-78 has New Jersey as a control state. The interesting thing is, out of the two freeways shown on the sign that pass through the Lehigh Valley, which has 800k+ people, there isn't any control city on the BGS shown. Just a state, another highway, and an airport.
http://goo.gl/maps/7TUFa
I suppose on this I-78 BGS, "Penna." was preferred over "PA" as an abbreviation.
http://goo.gl/maps/N5EjJ
Only 3 miles into NJ and the BGS already has New York as its control state.
Quote from: Some_Person on May 06, 2013, 09:16:34 PM
http://goo.gl/maps/AAoUE
Here, west of Allentown, I-78 has New Jersey as a control state. The interesting thing is, out of the two freeways shown on the sign that pass through the Lehigh Valley, which has 800k+ people, there isn't any control city on the BGS shown. Just a state, another highway, and an airport.
Doesn't I-80 do that too? ISTR at the last EB exit in PA about 10 years ago, the control city on the I-80 pullthrough was New Jersey -- like, duh?
The funny thing about Exit 51's pull through sign on I-78 East near Allentown is that back in 1990 when it first opened ( that is the freeway east of there) it had "Allentown" as pull through control city and US 22 used "Whitehall." It was after I moved down to Florida sometime in the 90's when it was amended to what it is now.
Also an interesting thing to note is that the pull through sign on I-78 at the same interchange that has the control state of New York uses "Newark" instead considering that both signs were erected when I-78 was opened to traffic in 1990 between Exit 3 in NJ and Exit 51 (former Exit 15) as part of the same contract.
Also 1 mile left in New Jersey on I-78 has a control state of Pennsylvania on a BGS that makes it appear that I-78 exits itself instead of just using the traditional mileage signs.
Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2013, 04:13:04 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 01, 2013, 12:25:04 PM
QuoteI think I've seen photos before with Mexico used as a control nation...
http://goo.gl/maps/jc3QF (http://goo.gl/maps/jc3QF) :hmmm:
Ciudad de Mexico.
This has appeared many times in other threads (not referencing since they were focused on the region so it doesn't matter whether one should search) - but northern Illinois is
notorious for this. Iowa for I-80 West, Iowa for I-88 (on several distance signs), Wisconsin for I-90 and I-94 "North"), Indiana for I-94 "South" not to mention the annoying <insert direction here> Suburbs
In Dubuque, US-20 has "Illinois" at the Locust Street intersection while US 151/61/52 has no control city or state.
Also, to mention that on I-94 (and I-69) in Port Huron, MI, there is a control nation. Canada is used as control city instead of a specific city in Canada like Sarnia or even London.
The Ambassador Bridge in Detroit uses Canada from I-75 instead of Windsor as well as it being used in Sault Ste. Marie for I-75. In fact very rarely do you see another country's cities used as control point. NYSDOT does manage to use "Montreal" as far south as Albany for I-87 and most likely is the furthest point away from a border entry that I know of mentioned.
I often wonder if Canada ever uses a U.S city or town as a control point on their roadsigns other than new overhead signs near Niagara Falls for the Q.E.W. In Ontario most signs are "Bridge to U.S.A, other than Q.E.W that now uses Buffalo at the ON 420 interchange in Niagara Falls. I did hear from my dad years ago that Quebec did recognized Plattsburg, NY on Autoroute 15 on its mileage signs, but I do not know if that is the case anymore.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 12, 2013, 10:48:14 AM
I often wonder if Canada ever uses a U.S city or town as a control point on their roadsigns other than new overhead signs near Niagara Falls for the Q.E.W...........
Houlton, Maine on the Trans Canada at Woodstock, New Brunswick
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TtLpdHxrQkQ/UY-73iPpGDI/AAAAAAAAJ9c/huBQftY04yo/s800/IMG_0805.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_pgVdgPkFns/Tsj1PE-LIhI/AAAAAAAAIOs/8EwJ0rHD1g8/s800/IMG_0821.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-34o2PMMX2qk/Tsj1cPNcjYI/AAAAAAAAJik/n6gZjtlH5gE/s800/IMG_0833.JPG)
Quote from: roadman65 on May 12, 2013, 10:48:14 AM
I often wonder if Canada ever uses a U.S city or town as a control point on their roadsigns other than new overhead signs near Niagara Falls for the Q.E.W.
Alaska is used as a control state in Grande Prairie, Alberta (on the most direct route to Alaska from Edmonton).
Both Anchorage and Fairbanks are used as control cities at the Haines Highway-Alaska Highway intersection at Haines Junction YT, to guide travelers (many traveling from southeast Alaska via the Yukon to the rest of Alaska) through that really confusing intersection.
I-540 south in Arkansas (original segment) uses Oklahoma.
Ugly I-95 shield text
Back in 1997, the entry point from Sault Ste Marie ON - "Bridge to U.S.A."
funny, latest GSV: http://goo.gl/maps/NR93O
Other side of the border No mention of Canada until a couple miles prior to the border on I-75 and you see in the median "Canada - Straight Thru" (again - back in 1997)
Latest GSV: http://goo.gl/maps/ARBQV
Quote from: oscar on May 12, 2013, 02:03:18 PM
Haines Junction YT ... that really confusing intersection.
:)
Quote from: Some_Person on May 06, 2013, 09:16:34 PM
http://goo.gl/maps/AAoUE
Here, west of Allentown, I-78 has New Jersey as a control state. The interesting thing is, out of the two freeways shown on the sign that pass through the Lehigh Valley, which has 800k+ people, there isn't any control city on the BGS shown. Just a state, another highway, and an airport.
http://goo.gl/maps/7TUFa
I suppose on this I-78 BGS, "Penna." was preferred over "PA" as an abbreviation.
http://goo.gl/maps/N5EjJ
Only 3 miles into NJ and the BGS already has New York as its control state.
"New York" on a BGS implies the City not the State( or in other settings)... when people want to refer to the whole state it usually is " New York State" My friend is from upstate New York and the tells people he is from " New York State"
Quote from: ghYHZ on May 12, 2013, 12:06:34 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 12, 2013, 10:48:14 AM
I often wonder if Canada ever uses a U.S city or town as a control point on their roadsigns other than new overhead signs near Niagara Falls for the Q.E.W...........
Houlton, Maine on the Trans Canada at Woodstock, New Brunswick
B.C. signs are inconsistent, there are some that just say "U.S.A." or the like, but definitely plenty that mention Seattle too.
I often remember that on some pull through signs along I-275 (the Cincinnati Beltway) had "Kentucky" used as control cities.
The three toll roads that run continuous (the Indiana E-W Toll Road, Ohio Turnpike, Penna Turnpike or at least two of the three)in to each other often use state names on some ramp and pull through signs.
The NJ Turnpike Exit 6A ramp from US 130 uses the state name "Pennsylvania" instead of its turnpike name as reference. Then we cannot forget the sign at NJ 495's western terminus for the NJ Turnpike SB with "Del-Md-Pa" that has been around for many decades.
Quote from: Some_Person on May 06, 2013, 09:16:34 PM
I suppose on this I-78 BGS, "Penna." was preferred over "PA" as an abbreviation.
http://goo.gl/maps/N5EjJ
To add to NJ's use of Penna on signs, here's another case of Penna, this time on a US 202 South pullthrough.
http://goo.gl/maps/94g0k
In Arizona, California State Route 62 appears on a sign gantry in Arizona, and it used to display the control state as California:
http://www.arizonaroads.com/pics/az95ca62az.jpg
Today, California is now 29 Palms:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=parker,+az&hl=en&ll=34.149611,-114.288636&spn=0.005869,0.013078&sll=34.075412,-113.896637&sspn=0.751878,1.674042&hnear=Parker,+La+Paz,+Arizona&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.149518,-114.288578&panoid=jdCHs7DAnJHJPR0gllTpJA&cbp=12,355.86,,0,3.21
Quote from: roadman65 on May 06, 2013, 10:23:24 PM
The funny thing about Exit 51's pull through sign on I-78 East near Allentown is that back in 1990 when it first opened ( that is the freeway east of there) it had "Allentown" as pull through control city and US 22 used "Whitehall." It was after I moved down to Florida sometime in the 90's when it was amended to what it is now.
Also an interesting thing to note is that the pull through sign on I-78 at the same interchange that has the control state of New York uses "Newark" instead considering that both signs were erected when I-78 was opened to traffic in 1990 between Exit 3 in NJ and Exit 51 (former Exit 15) as part of the same contract.
Also 1 mile left in New Jersey on I-78 has a control state of Pennsylvania on a BGS that makes it appear that I-78 exits itself instead of just using the traditional mileage signs.
Even driving I-78 East at exit 51 as of 2013 it will say I-78 East New Jersey US-22 East LVI Airport PA turnpike, but the Correct form should have been I-78 East Easton/Clinton,NJ and US-22 East Allentown at exit 51