I'm curious how much the second option is used, and if there was a general preference among users of this forum for one or the other.
It's used extensively in México.. :D
Ave is the official USPS abbreviation: https://www.usps.com/send/official-abbreviations.htm
Back in the old days, "AVE" was commonly used on various street signs throughout New York City; however, "AV" was also in use. Frankly, from what it seems to me, the choice of either abbreviation depended on the size of the font and amount of space available on the actual street sign itself. Aside from these two abbreviations, I recall the city used the full name as well. It was typically used for streets that had fairly long names, and "AVENUE" was directly placed below the actual name. Due to size, the font was quite small, of course, but it was still noticeable from a certain distance. To see a street sign with the full name, not to mention the abbreviation of "AVE," is rather rare in New York City today, since "AV" is the ideal abbreviation. Though it has been in use for over 80 years there.
As far as which one I prefer, I prefer "AV," since I have seen that abbreviation for pretty much all of my life. Though I have seen "AVE" and the full name several times.
Kansas City, Kansas uses "AV" on its ground-level signs, seemingly out of preference for all such abbreviations being two letters when possible ("boulevard" is "BL"). Weirdly, "Lane" is abbreviated to "LA" instead of "LN".
I prefer "Av" because I usually think the idea of abbreviating is to go with a short form, so I prefer not using unnecessary extra characters. The "e" adds nothing to the abbreviation in my view. If it were necessary to distinguish from some other similar abbreviation that'd be different, of course.
Many street blades in Florida use two-letter abbreviations (AV for avenue, CT for Court, BL for Boulevard, TR for Trail, et al). While "ave" is one of the few road abbreviations that's become a commonplace word, the pronunciation of it means that a two-letter abbreviation is okay by me. Since the cardinal directions are commonly NE, NW, SE, SW (with N-S-E-W, of course); the two-letter abbreviation seems to be a bit more "balanced".
I never realized there were abbreviations for Cape, Bottom, Underpass, and Cliffs (among others).
I like Ave.
I live on a street that ends in Terrace. That confuses a lot of people. Many don't even understand 'Terrace', since they are used to hearing 'Avenue', 'Street', etc. And then I abbreviate it to the longer Terr., rather than the shorter Ter. that some people use.
Quote from: formulanone on May 22, 2013, 10:08:07 AM
Many street blades in Florida use two-letter abbreviations (AV for avenue, CT for Court, BL for Boulevard, TR for Trail, et al)
PY for Parkway is one of the stranger ones.
I like Ave better, but Av isn't too bad either, since it's to the point.
Since we're discussing abbreviations, I've always found it amusing that the word "boulevard," which is spelled exactly the same way in both French and English, is usually abbreviated "Boul" in French but "Blvd" in English. I suppose that might in part reflect the way in French the initial letters are stressed a bit more when you pronounce the word (more like "BOO-lay-vard" instead of "bull-uh-vard").
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 22, 2013, 11:00:13 AM
Since we're discussing abbreviations, I've always found it amusing that the word "boulevard," which is spelled exactly the same way in both French and English, is usually abbreviated "Boul" in French but "Blvd" in English. I suppose that might in part reflect the way in French the initial letters are stressed a bit more when you pronounce the word (more like "BOO-lay-vard" instead of "bull-uh-vard").
Orlando, FL abbreviates Boulevard as "Bv" just like "Py" is now the norm there for Parkway on many pre-intersection guides and some overhead traffic light assemblies.
Speaking of Avenues I prefer Ave. as its been around longer.
However, in Spanish you will see the Av. abbreviation for Avenida (that is the Spanish word for avenue) always places ahead of the name. Therefore if you live in Southern California you might be seeing plenty of "Av" due to some roads in Spanish, so it might be used in English because people have become familiar with the abbreviations so it got adopted more in out there and eventually caught on everyplace, as I do see both used in many states. Plus space limitations on blade signs in addition make that a reason to go for the two letter, I would suppose.
Regarding other languages, you could go to Ottawa.
Things like "Rue Wellington St" to accommodate bilingualism are fine. These signs, however, strike me as just plain overkill. It's not like any reasonable person wouldn't understand these signs if they were in only one language:
http://goo.gl/maps/ZPJ3T
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 22, 2013, 02:39:01 PM
Regarding other languages, you could go to Ottawa.
Things like "Rue Wellington St" to accommodate bilingualism are fine. These signs, however, strike me as just plain overkill. It's not like any reasonable person wouldn't understand these signs if they were in only one language:
http://goo.gl/maps/ZPJ3T
the worst is Blvd. Foo Blvd. which I believe I saw in Montreal. It may have been Ave. Foo Ave.
Quote from: formulanone on May 22, 2013, 10:08:07 AM
Many street blades in Florida use two-letter abbreviations (AV for avenue, CT for Court, BL for Boulevard, TR for Trail, et al).
Here's a question though. If AV, CT, BL, etc. are in all caps, is the actual name of the street in all caps too? If so, that's cool. However, if the street name is in a mixed-case font but the descriptor (AV, CT, BL, etc.) is in all caps, that doesn't make sense.
One of the suburbs of the city I live in recently went through and replaced a lot of its street sign blades. It drives me crazy every time I see them. They opted to go with a mixed-case font for the name of the street, but when it comes to the descriptor, it's in all caps. I HATE that!!! For instance, the sign will say "44th ST" instead of "44th St". Another example is "Park East CT" instead of "Park East Ct". We're not in a place called Park East, Connecticut! "ST", "AV", "CT", etc. are abbreviations - not acronyms! The only abbrevations that are acceptable for all caps are state abbreviations or abbreviations where the rest of the text was already in all caps. Ugh...
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 22, 2013, 02:42:42 PM
the worst is Blvd. Foo Blvd. which I believe I saw in Montreal. It may have been Ave. Foo Ave.
That would be odd. Normally in French they abbreviate it "Boul": http://goo.gl/maps/SdCya
must have been an Ave. it was definitely identical on both ends.
That is not odd with the descriptor before and after the name. Heck, look at the way people say the famous river between Texas and Mexico as the Rio Grande River. Now I'm not changing the topic of this forum, just to point out that it is common that such uses exist with that being an example.
However, you are right with Rue and Street both being used as both mean the same exact thing. I am guessing they're are trying to kill two birds with one stone and its their way of being bilingual.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 22, 2013, 04:04:06 PM
That is not odd with the descriptor before and after the name. Heck, look at the way people say the famous river between Texas and Mexico as the Rio Grande River. Now I'm not changing the topic of this forum, just to point out that it is common that such uses exist with that being an example.
However, you are right with Rue and Street both being used as both mean the same exact thing. I am guessing they're are trying to kill two birds with one stone and its their way of being bilingual.
Ignorance is not the same thing as a policy of bilingualism. People say "RÃo Grande River" not because they want to make sure it's understood by both English and Spanish speakers, but because they're ignorant of the fact that
rÃo means
river. In contrast, I feel quite certain that those responsible for producing "Rue Foo St" know very well that
rue means
street.
And, for what it's worth, it isn't even
called the "RÃo Grande" in México. Messed up...
I prefer Ave, and that's used consistently by most agencies near me, except for Franklin County Engineer's Office and City of Hilliard, which tend to favor Av and mix the two evenly, respectively.
When I visited Los Angeles a few years ago I thought it was odd that Avenida was abbreviated Avd instead of Ave. Seems you could use Ave for both, because Avenida comes before the main part of the name whereas Avenue comes after.
My point was not that "Rue Wellington Street" is redundant, even though it is. I recognize that some anglophones may not know that "rue" means "street." That sort of sign can thus be helpful. Same thing applies to the BGSs in Montreal that say "Pont Champlain Bridge." They're not saying that the bridge is named the "Pont Champlain Bridge." They're giving both the French name (Pont Champlain) and the English equivalent (Champlain Bridge).
But "Av. Maitland Ave." is just dumb. Regardless of whether you speak English or French, how could you possibly not know what it meant if it were only in "one language"?
In other words, it's well-intended, and the policy makes sense for words that aren't the same or close to each other in both languages. But when the word is exactly the same, slavish adherence to a policy just strikes me as silly, even if it's done with the right idea in mind.
The bilingual names thing is stupid regardless because it is a well established standard that you don't translate proper nouns. It is "Rue Wellington", under no circumstance is calling it "Wellington Street" appropriate, even if you are speaking English. Also, not speaking French does not hinder comprehension of the former because hey, if it's on a street sign, what do you think it's referring to, a platypus?
As for the original question, I grew up with "AV" for Avenue and "LA" for Lane thanks to Hagstrom, but that involved setting the text in all caps. I will still often write them this way if I am using all caps. However, I am firmly of the opinion that "Av" and "La" in mixed case just don't look right, and thus I go with "Ave" and "Ln" instead in those cases.
I prefer Ave, but I've seen Av become more common in my lifetime, especially in cities such as my own that have more streets suffixed Avenue than anything else; it's a cost thing.
I really have no preference, although this is probably because Richmond and the surrounding areas tend to use Ave and Av interchangeably.
I like Ave. Just looks better.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 22, 2013, 08:18:59 PM
The bilingual names thing is stupid regardless because it is a well established standard that you don't translate proper nouns. It is "Rue Wellington", under no circumstance is calling it "Wellington Street" appropriate, even if you are speaking English. Also, not speaking French does not hinder comprehension of the former because hey, if it's on a street sign, what do you think it's referring to, a platypus?
....
Remember, though, that Canada doesn't necessarily follow US standards. The bilingualism thing, as you know, is a massive political issue there and that almost certainly plays into these sorts of signs where they're used. It's understandable why Ottawa, as the capital, would be particularly thorough.
From what I understand of French grammar, "rue" (or other road type) isn't considered a proper noun in French and it'd normally be written in all lowercase if it appeared mid-sentence (thus a BGS is an exception because its the first word). They only capitalize the "name," which itself is treated as an adjective because it tells you
which street. (This is the same principle that explains why they call Concorde a "TSS" rather than an "SST"–in French it's "transport super-sonique" because you always put the adjective second.)
Thus, "drive two kilometres on Wellington Street" becomes "conduire deux kilomètres sur la rue Wellington."
Applying that information about the French language to American road sign design rules, I'd strongly lean towards "RUE Wellington" on street signs and BGS. Or perhaps even "RUE Wellington St" to satisfy the political requirement for bilingualism. And I know that asymmetry is going to be a problem for a lot of people here...
No difference for me. Where I live, it is AVE. Until 2010, the City of Aiken, S.C. used AV for their signs.
Personally, I kinda like the bilingual street names. I guess it is kinda redundant, especially with words like Boulevard or Avenue that are the same in both languages, but I find it pleasant to look at and it really doesn't hurt anything.
Quote from: vtk on May 23, 2013, 10:36:34 AM
Applying that information about the French language to American road sign design rules, I'd strongly lean towards "RUE Wellington" on street signs and BGS. Or perhaps even "RUE Wellington St" to satisfy the political requirement for bilingualism. And I know that asymmetry is going to be a problem for a lot of people here...
If you're going to go that far, it might even be better to just go all the way with "
RUE Wellington
ST". Not because the asymmetry bugs me (though it does :P), but because it would help set the important part (the proper name) apart from the prefix/suffix.
As for Ave/Av: I like that "Av" is two letters because it matches most of the other common abbreviations, but I prefer "Ave".
Quote from: Central Avenue on June 10, 2013, 01:46:27 AM
Quote from: vtk on May 23, 2013, 10:36:34 AM
Applying that information about the French language to American road sign design rules, I'd strongly lean towards "RUE Wellington" on street signs and BGS. Or perhaps even "RUE Wellington St" to satisfy the political requirement for bilingualism. And I know that asymmetry is going to be a problem for a lot of people here...
If you're going to go that far, it might even be better to just go all the way with "RUE Wellington ST". Not because the asymmetry bugs me (though it does :P), but because it would help set the important part (the proper name) apart from the prefix/suffix.
...Except in English, that suffix is considered part of the proper name. That's why we capitalize it, and that's why I left it in mixed-case in my example. Also note how in speech we emphasize the suffix word rather than the core name, except strangely for when the suffix is Street.
If we did de-annex the suffix from the proper name, in my mind we'd have to start adding a definite article. Examples: the Gee lane, the Ricart freeway, the Wexner road, the Ohio street, the Twenty-Eighth avenue.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2013, 05:15:28 AM
Kansas City, Kansas uses "AV" on its ground-level signs, seemingly out of preference for all such abbreviations being two letters when possible ("boulevard" is "BL"). Weirdly, "Lane" is abbreviated to "LA" instead of "LN".
Also, in the Rosedale section of Kansas City, KS which borders the state line and is the only part of KCK where the Kansas City, MO street grid continues, "Avenue" is spelled out on the signs for the numbered streets in the area (ex. W 43RD AVENUE).
For the record, KCMO uses "AVE" on its signs.
Quote from: builder_J on June 11, 2013, 02:09:48 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2013, 05:15:28 AM
Kansas City, Kansas uses "AV" on its ground-level signs, seemingly out of preference for all such abbreviations being two letters when possible ("boulevard" is "BL"). Weirdly, "Lane" is abbreviated to "LA" instead of "LN".
Also, in the Rosedale section of Kansas City, KS which borders the state line and is the only part of KCK where the Kansas City, MO street grid continues, "Avenue" is spelled out on the signs for the numbered streets in the area (ex. W 43RD AVENUE).
For the record, KCMO uses "AVE" on its signs.
KCK typically spells out STREET on numbered streets, too.
Didn't know that about Rosedale! (I'm most familiar with Argentine and the area around the racetrack.) Might be kind of confusing when the regular KCK grid comes into play too.
Quote from: vtk on June 10, 2013, 05:18:31 AM
...Except in English, that suffix is considered part of the proper name. That's why we capitalize it, and that's why I left it in mixed-case in my example. Also note how in speech we emphasize the suffix word rather than the core name, except strangely for when the suffix is Street.
If we did de-annex the suffix from the proper name, in my mind we'd have to start adding a definite article. Examples: the Gee lane, the Ricart freeway, the Wexner road, the Ohio street, the Twenty-Eighth avenue.
That was indeed the practice for much of English-speaking history, and still is for certain types of roads like expressways/freeways. In my neighborhood we have the Major Deegan Expressway, and I'm not to far from what, for most of its life, has been known as the Boston Post Road.
Or more strictly, the Boston post road, with only the proper name–Boston–capitalized. Except: earlier in English, like still in German, nouns were more frequently capitalized whether proper or not. So you might have "the Boston Post Road" just as you might generically refer to "the Post Road" or "meeting friends at the Tavern" or "criticising the Government".
I usually don't pay too much attention one way or the other.