http://www.businessinsider.com/22-maps-that-show-the-deepest-linguistic-conflicts-in-america-2013-6
A couple of these maps pertain to road terms.
Saw that one myself. There seems to be a serious problem with the "freeway" one...
The map addressing "coleslaw" appears to be missing a category. People from the New York area say it more like "slore" (rhymes with "ore" as in "iron ore").
The "highway" one sounds right to me. I know some people from out West who would give directions from, say, DC to Charlottesville by saying "Take I-66 west to Highway 29," but I've never heard that usage by anyone who's not from out West. I think that map is a fine example of the difference between the technical usage of various terms like "freeway" or "expressway" and the real-world usage of such terms. I'll use the word "freeway" on this forum or in other contexts where a particular level of precision is needed, but in general conversation I think of it as a weird California term that regular people don't use.
The "merry/Mary/marry" one still irks me from over 30 years ago when I missed a question on a spelling test because the teacher mispronounced the word "marry" as though it were "Mary" and refused to use it in a sentence. She said "Mary," so I wrote "Mary" and she marked it wrong. Bitch.
I figured that "roundabout" would get heavy use in Central Indiana, thanks Carmel.
Quote from: tdindy88 on June 06, 2013, 02:09:58 PM
I figured that "roundabout" would get heavy use in Central Indiana, thanks Carmel.
The answer I would have given wasn't listed as an option (I don't know if they allowed respondents to volunteer other responses)–it may be either a traffic circle or a roundabout depending on the particular one in question.
Quite interesting maps. Who the heck calls a crawfish a crawdad? And it's "pick-AHN' for pecan. Anything else is just grating on the ears.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 02:23:38 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on June 06, 2013, 02:09:58 PMI figured that "roundabout" would get heavy use in Central Indiana, thanks Carmel.
The answer I would have given wasn't listed as an option (I don't know if they allowed respondents to volunteer other responses)–it may be either a traffic circle or a roundabout depending on the particular one in question.
It is another instance of failing to allow respondents the opportunity to specify how precisely they wish to follow generally accepted engineering terminology, in which
roundabout and
traffic circle are differentiated by the existence of a yield-on-entry condition. The description as given can also fit
traffic calming circle or
mini-roundabout.
Using adaptation for high-speed automobile travel as the criterion (in the question that attempts to map usage of
highway versus
freeway) also opens the door to possibilities such as
racetrack,
motocross course, etc.
To be frank, many of the map headings (which I presume were generated by the journalists for public presentation, not by the sociolinguistics researchers themselves, who would have been much more conscious of the need for neutral point of view) rubbed me the wrong way since they implied a particular regional usage is or should be normative.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 02:44:03 PM
....
To be frank, many of the map headings (which I presume were generated by the journalists for public presentation, not by the sociolinguistics researchers themselves, who would have been much more conscious of the need for neutral point of view) rubbed me the wrong way since they implied a particular regional usage is or should be normative.
Agreed; the heading on the map showing the word "been" annoyed me. It says, "Residents of the far North have an oddly Canadian way of pronouncing 'been.'" It shows people in Montana, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Michigan pronouncing it with a short "e," kind of like the name "Ben." I grew up in the DC area and my parents are from Brooklyn and I've almost
always heard it pronounced that way. The "bin" pronunciation strikes me as odd because there's no "i" in the word.
I note that on "y'all" they didn't distinguish between "y'all" and "all y'all." "Y'all" can be singular or indefinite; "all y'all" is always plural in that it includes everyone in a group, whereas "y'all" might include a smaller subset. ("Y'all" is one usage I definitely adopted during my years down at Duke because it's useful. It also seems to annoy people from up North for no apparent reason.)
They could have added the pronunciation of names like "Oregon," "Nevada," and "Monroe" as well. I think ultimately with a lot of these things most people grow up using the term (in the case of things like soda or the highway) or the pronunciation (in the case of things like "been") that their parents used. Of course, I suppose you also have things where your parent has some weird pronunciation that you'd be appalled to have anyone else hear. For some reason my father always insisted that the word "booger" is pronounced with the "oo" not as in "book" (the way everyone says it, including the character in
Revenge of the Nerds) but rather as in "boolean." Think of the word "boo" (as in, what you do when you don't like the ref's call) and append "ger" to it. I'll never as long as I live forget the day my father, who was the Scoutmaster of our Boy Scout troop, used that word at a patrol leaders' council meeting and one of the other kids immediately yelled, "What the
HELL is a 'BOO-ger'???!!!!!" Of course we all started laughing at my father, who couldn't figure it out and claimed that both pronunciations sound the same to him.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 02:07:52 PM
The "merry/Mary/marry" one still irks me from over 30 years ago when I missed a question on a spelling test because the teacher mispronounced the word "marry" as though it were "Mary" and refused to use it in a sentence. She said "Mary," so I wrote "Mary" and she marked it wrong. Bitch.
Funny how long we remember that sort of thing. I had a teacher pronounce 'accurate' as "ac-crate", refuse to define it or use it in a sentence (as is required by the spelling bee, IIRC), so I thought it was some word I had not heard of, spelled it phonetically, and of course, was eliminated. Mrs. Jenkins, I'm still irked.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 02:44:03 PMracetrack
I would be endlessly amused if someone referred to the public roadway structure in question as a "racetrack".
"all right, son, what were you doing going around and around without taking one of the roads out?"
"gee officer, I was just waiting for the checkered flag!"
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 02:07:52 PM
The "merry/Mary/marry" one still irks me from over 30 years ago when I missed a question on a spelling test because the teacher mispronounced the word "marry" as though it were "Mary" and refused to use it in a sentence. She said "Mary," so I wrote "Mary" and she marked it wrong. Bitch.
terrible. I grew up in Boston, so to me the three words are all very different.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 06, 2013, 03:56:27 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 02:07:52 PM
The "merry/Mary/marry" one still irks me from over 30 years ago when I missed a question on a spelling test because the teacher mispronounced the word "marry" as though it were "Mary" and refused to use it in a sentence. She said "Mary," so I wrote "Mary" and she marked it wrong. Bitch.
terrible. I grew up in Boston, so to me the three words are all very different.
They sound the same to me. However, cot and caught on the other hand sound completely different.
The "highway" question should've been phrased differently, IMHO. They should asked what a controlled-access road is called: a) freeway, b) expressway, c) interstate, d) other, e) no word for such a thing.
Quote from: Brandon on June 06, 2013, 03:59:38 PM
They sound the same to me. However, cot and caught on the other hand sound completely different.
for me, those two words sound the same.
QuoteThe "highway" question should've been phrased differently, IMHO. They should asked what a controlled-access road is called: a) freeway, b) expressway, c) interstate, d) other, e) no word for such a thing.
f) "what's a controlled-access road?"
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 03:06:12 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 02:44:03 PMTo be frank, many of the map headings (which I presume were generated by the journalists for public presentation, not by the sociolinguistics researchers themselves, who would have been much more conscious of the need for neutral point of view) rubbed me the wrong way since they implied a particular regional usage is or should be normative.
Agreed; the heading on the map showing the word "been" annoyed me. It says, "Residents of the far North have an oddly Canadian way of pronouncing 'been.'" It shows people in Montana, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Michigan pronouncing it with a short "e," kind of like the name "Ben." I grew up in the DC area and my parents are from Brooklyn and I've almost always heard it pronounced that way. The "bin" pronunciation strikes me as odd because there's no "i" in the word.
You are doing the thing you didn't like when it came to "ben" with "bin".
"bin" and "been" being the same is the English English pronunciation. Worth pointing out that "bit" and "bin"/"been" and "bean" is 3 different vowel sounds (short, middle and long forms of the same shape?). "bean" has the same vowel sound as "seen"
Apparently, 'ee', 'ea' and 'i' sounds are hard for foreign English learners to tell apart.
It's worse in Kiwi (pronounced Kee-wee) accents where short i and e vowels don't seem to exist - bit sounds like beet.
This "how-to American Accent" video talks about the "ee/i" vowel sound with a different vowel to what I'd put in 'bin/been'. Though I would use such a sound for "audi", "kiwi" (twice), "seen", "seem", "seam", "wee", "wii".
I think I've established "bin" as legit pronunciation of "been", alongside "bean" and "ben". I guess this is what we get for non-phonetic spelling!
I pronounce "bin" and "been" very similarly, but not identically. "been", for me, is about 1/4 of the way in pitch between "bin" and "Ben" - all three are the same length of vowel.
Quote from: english si on June 06, 2013, 04:12:58 PM
It's worse in Kiwi (pronounced Kee-wee) accents where short i and e vowels don't seem to exist - bit sounds like beet.
furthermore, "sex" sounds like "seex". I was watching a New Zealand movie the other day and it took me about 5 minutes to pick up on that.
Quote from: english si on June 06, 2013, 04:12:58 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 03:06:12 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 02:44:03 PMTo be frank, many of the map headings (which I presume were generated by the journalists for public presentation, not by the sociolinguistics researchers themselves, who would have been much more conscious of the need for neutral point of view) rubbed me the wrong way since they implied a particular regional usage is or should be normative.
Agreed; the heading on the map showing the word "been" annoyed me. It says, "Residents of the far North have an oddly Canadian way of pronouncing 'been.'" It shows people in Montana, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Michigan pronouncing it with a short "e," kind of like the name "Ben." I grew up in the DC area and my parents are from Brooklyn and I've almost always heard it pronounced that way. The "bin" pronunciation strikes me as odd because there's no "i" in the word.
You are doing the thing you didn't like when it came to "ben" with "bin".
"bin" and "been" being the same is the English English pronunciation. Worth pointing out that "bit" and "bin"/"been" and "bean" is 3 different vowel sounds (short, middle and long forms of the same shape?). "bean" has the same vowel sound as "seen"
Then there's the Canadian/Ontario pronunciation of been. There, it sounds more like "bean" than "ben" or "bin".
Quote from: english si on June 06, 2013, 04:12:58 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 03:06:12 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 02:44:03 PMTo be frank, many of the map headings (which I presume were generated by the journalists for public presentation, not by the sociolinguistics researchers themselves, who would have been much more conscious of the need for neutral point of view) rubbed me the wrong way since they implied a particular regional usage is or should be normative.
Agreed; the heading on the map showing the word "been" annoyed me. It says, "Residents of the far North have an oddly Canadian way of pronouncing 'been.'" It shows people in Montana, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Michigan pronouncing it with a short "e," kind of like the name "Ben." I grew up in the DC area and my parents are from Brooklyn and I've almost always heard it pronounced that way. The "bin" pronunciation strikes me as odd because there's no "i" in the word.
You are doing the thing you didn't like when it came to "ben" with "bin".
....
Yeah, I maybe didn't word that quite as well as I could have. What I was getting at is that to me, "bin" sounds a bit odd for "been" because I've always heard the "ben" pronunciation, but at the same time I recognize that "bin" is a very common pronunciation too. I kind of resented the author's way of essentially passing judgment that "bin" is correct and other pronunciations are "odd" or "wrong."
There are places where people pronounce other words with an "e" as though there were an "i"–in parts of the South, for example, someone might ask to borrow what sounds like a "pin" when he wants to use your writing instrument (a "pen," which to me has the same final "-en" sound as "ten" or "Ben" or "when"....or "been").
I suppose maybe the ideal word to use for this discussion on a website relating to roads would be "route"–"rowt" or "root"? (I've always used the "ow" version.)
These Wikis aren't as detailed as I would like, but they do work for this thread:
Regional vocabularies of American English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_vocabularies_of_American_English)
North American English regional phonology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology)
Boston is "root" territory, but when I moved out west I found myself having switched to "rowt".
"rowt 66" still sounds a bit funny to me.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 06, 2013, 04:45:32 PM
Boston is "root" territory, but when I moved out west I found myself having switched to "rowt".
"rowt 66" still sounds a bit funny to me.
Sounds funny to me as well, but so does "root 66". I'd pronounce it "US 66" or just "66", as I'd pronounce US-23 as just "23" or US-12 as just "12". State routes get the additional identifier before them i.e. "M-66", "Illinois 1", "Wis 13", etc. Interstates get the additional identifier sometimes i.e. "I-80" or just "80".
Re: roundabouts & traffic circles–
I highly doubt that the number of people surveyed who would have answered with specific design criteria for the former were any more than a drop in the bucket.
Re: y'all–
And why no [i/you'uns[/i]?
Re: marry/Mary/merry–
I've seen various maps regarding this, and I still have no idea how they're supposed to be pronounced differently. Absolutely no clue. To me, they're the same, and I don't recall every hearing anyone pronounce one differently.
Re: soda/pop–
What? No seltzer?
Re: New Zealand–
I once sat in an outdoor hot tub in Utah, desperately trying for five minutes to figure out what language the people in there with me were speaking (this was a national park, so foreign tourists were to be expected). Eventually it dawned on me that it was English. Those crazy kiwis...
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
^^
NE Illinois/SE Michigan, and I tend to use a lot more SE Michigan terms (party store) and pronunciations.
1. "casserole", but I have heard "hot dish" from time to time.
2. "duck duck goose". WTF is "duck duck grey duck"?
3. "cart". Amish folks use "buggies" on the roads.
4. "kitty corner".
And "traffic circle" tends to get more use than "roundabout" from what I've heard. Of course, the traffic circles I've seen are operated like roundabouts whereby traffic in the circle has the right of way.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
Re: marry/Mary/merry–
I've seen various maps regarding this, and I still have no idea how they're supposed to be pronounced differently. Absolutely no clue. To me, they're the same, and I don't recall every hearing anyone pronounce one differently.
marry rhymes with Barry.
merry rhymes with berry.
Mary rhymes with scary.
do you pronounce the vowel sounds differently in those three words?
QuoteReply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
I've never heard of "hot dish". I've also heard casserole with a modifier... would one say "tuna hot dish"?
QuoteReply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
that's me. seems to be "kitty corner" on both coasts, but my girlfriend (from Alaska) seems to be a "catty corner" sort.
oh, speaking of an Alaska regionalism - who here says "snow machine"? (for a snowmobile, not a piece of ski resort equipment.)
also, "ATV", "four-wheeler", or "quad"? I say "four-wheeler".
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 06, 2013, 05:14:32 PM
marry rhymes with Barry.
merry rhymes with berry.
Mary rhymes with scary.
do you pronounce the vowel sounds differently in those three words?
Nope. They all rhyme perfectly. Try again :)
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:16:02 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 06, 2013, 05:14:32 PM
marry rhymes with Barry.
merry rhymes with berry.
Mary rhymes with scary.
do you pronounce the vowel sounds differently in those three words?
Nope. They all rhyme perfectly. Try again :)
They also all rhyme to me as well.
dang! let's see... how to speak Jake...
"marry" has a similar "a" to "flat", "bass" (the fish), "lamb".
"merry" has a similar "e" to "pet", "spend", "best".
"Mary" has a similar "a" to "bear", "Claire", "cane".
I say similar and not identical because each of the example triplets has slightly different sounds as well - it just depends on where the tongue is, to combine the sound with what comes previously and what comes next.
So, asking my wife to pick something up...... Carrie, please carry..... Those two sound different to you, too?
Wait, scratch that. ~arr~ in both of them.
OK. Came up with a better question.
Do you pronounce "Harry" and "hairy" differently?
sure do. one's marry and one's Mary.
That is so weird...
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
Hot Dish is an upper midwest term, especially Minnesota. One not listed: my wife, a native Minneapolitan, insists a rubber band is a "binder". I vaguely remember duck duck grey duck - I grew up in California. I've always said "kitty corner". In Minnesota, a snowmobile is often referred to as a "sled".
Though I always thought of California as having a neutral accent, I was made aware as a young adult, first time on my own outside my home area, of a tendency to insert "r" between a and sh, as in "going to warsh (or worsh) my clothes". And I agree, marry, merry and Mary are the same word.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 02:07:52 PM
The "highway" one sounds right to me. [...] I think that map is a fine example of the difference between the technical usage of various terms like "freeway" or "expressway" and the real-world usage of such terms.
Except that "expressway" isn't a choice; in fact nothing is, other than "freeway" or "highway" in various shades of meaning. I seriously doubt "highway" is the predominant term throughout the Northeast.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PMRe: roundabouts & traffic circles–
I highly doubt that the number of people surveyed who would have answered with specific design criteria for the former were any more than a drop in the bucket.
I agree, but it does raise the question of how you sort out the effects of register, which is what 1995hoo is talking about when he says he will use the word
freeway when he needs a technically precise term for a fully access-controlled highway facility adapted for high speed, but choose some other word in ordinary conversation.
If one really wanted to be controversial, one could invoke the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and suggest that in jurisdictions where there is no word for freeways in common use that is understood to refer to freeways
only, it is easier to kill freeway proposals by rescoping them to something other than a freeway.
QuoteReply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
I'd say
covered dish because I went native in Britain.
Casserole is what I grew up with. For the communal event to which casseroles are often brought, I grew up with
potluck dinner but often say
covered dish supper now.
QuoteReply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
This is actually a big sociolinguistics test word. I don't say either
kitty corner or
catty-corner because they sound too informal.
Catercorner is the more formal-sounding version of
catty-corner, but I don't use it because I suspect it is a product of hypercorrection rather than a real word. I prefer to use constructions like
diagonally opposite.
"binder":
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cointalk.com%2Fattachments%2F194835d1344785890-vb_stock_open1b-o3vbx1-.jpg&hash=7b5b50452f398269fb89883a8687cf78020c8271)
"binder clip":
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freputeofficeneeds.com%2Fshopping%2Ffiles%2F1262181309_BindersClipN00004.jpg&hash=d9b6596909db85ab0467e2f4448bd95f44dd1561)
I believe these are fairly standard terms. that's all that the word "binder" encompasses in my world.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 06:07:51 PMI don't say either kitty corner or catty-corner because they sound too informal. Catercorner is the more formal-sounding version of catty-corner, but I don't use it because I suspect it is a product of hypercorrection rather than a real word. I prefer to use constructions like diagonally opposite.
sometimes I say "cat corner".
I use the term in question to refer to "diagonally opposite" - for example, houses on opposite quadrants of a four-way perpendicular intersection. I've heard it used for other relative positionings as well. for example, two houses on a street, each opposite to the adjacent neighbor. i.e. if you ran a perpendicular road between them, then it would be indeed "kitty corner", but there is no road... is that still kitty corner? to some people, it is.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
I'm from NW Wisconsin/Eastern Minnesota, and here's what I say:
- I tend to say "Hot dish" instead of "casserole", but it doesn't sound odd for someone to say casserole to me. Although native Minnesotans generally say "hot dish", a lot of people also use "casserole".
- I played "Duck duck goose", but that's because I spent my younger years in Wisconsin. Around here in Minnesota, everyone plays "Duck duck grey duck" in elementary school.
- I put my groceries in a cart. Buggies would be something you push a baby around in (aka a stroller).
- I say "kitty corner", and I don't think I've ever heard someone say "catty corner"!
"Merry", "marry", and "Mary" are all homonyms to me as well (pronounced with a long "a" like "bear", "hare", or "wear").
Quote from: twinsfan87 on June 06, 2013, 06:12:18 PM
"Merry", "marry", and "Mary" are all homonyms to me as well (pronounced with a long "a" like "bear", "hare", or "wear").
I suddenly understand why "Beary Christmas" doesn't sound awfully stilted to the general public.
My last name is Doty. The proper English pronounciation is "dough-tee" but with an American accent it's usually slurred to "dough-dee". My wife and I got hassled by the security theater goon last time we flew home from Heathrow because we didn't say our names in the proper English way. He accused us of using fake passports because we didn't say our own name right and answered "both" when he asked if we said our name with a -tee or a -dee.
Quote from: realjd on June 06, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
The proper English pronounciation is "dough-tee" but with an American accent it's usually slurred to "dough-dee".
I thought the dropping of middle ts was just a Jersey thing especially in Trenin and Innerstate 287...
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 06, 2013, 06:41:24 PM
I thought the dropping of middle ts was just a Jersey thing especially in Trenin and Innerstate 287...
I half-drop a middle T. "Trenton", as well as "Canton" (the town in which I grew up in Massachusetts) gets what I believe is a glottal stop for the middle "t". a linguist who heard me speak would be able to identify it readily - I'm just not 100% sure.
I just noticed I glottal-stop the "t" in "cat corner" as well.
To those complaining that certain options were missing from the poll: I'm pretty sure the responses were not limited to 3 or four choices. The responses may or may not have been freeform, but I suspect the survey was performed orally, with the survey taker writing down the responses and possibly categorizing similar responses as identical in the process. However many responses actually exist in the recorded data, the maps display a maximum of four – if there are more than four responses in the data, it appears we get the top three and "other", which is then sometimes larger than the third or even second most common response.
I find some of the most interesting maps are the ones where "I don't have a term or phrase for this" is a popular response.
It's actually kind of interesting that the generic term for "fast road" is highway in the east and freeway in the west, since there's substantially more speed variation between the two classes of road in the east than the west, with freeways moving way faster.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PMReply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
Casserole, England.
No, England.
Groceries go in trolleys, England.*
Neither: never heard of the terms, England.^
*Buggies are for babies/toddlers and carts are spelt with a k and for racing.
^If I had to guess what I would say: diagonally opposite, diagonal, opposite, over there, heading the other way... Doesn't come up that often.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 06:07:51 PMI'd say covered dish because I went native in Britain. Casserole is what I grew up with. For the communal event to which casseroles are often brought, I grew up with potluck dinner but often say covered dish supper now.
say what? never heard of any of that 'covered dish' stuff. And it's not as if I'm
that insulated from the hoity toity of university Oxford...
Casserole is a fairly specific thing in typical usage in the UK A potluck might be called 'bring and share' or something.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 06, 2013, 06:08:55 PM"binder clip":
Bulldog clip.
Quote from: realjd on June 06, 2013, 06:26:29 PMMy last name is Doty. The proper English pronounciation is "dough-tee" but with an American accent it's usually slurred to "dough-dee". My wife and I got hassled by the security theater goon last time we flew home from Heathrow because we didn't say our names in the proper English way. He accused us of using fake passports because we didn't say our own name right and answered "both" when he asked if we said our name with a -tee or a -dee.
There's a numpty.
The Cockney accent, and the near London-originating 'Estuary' accent that is common throughout London suburbia will under pronounce 'T's in the middle of words. One sign on the M1 was 'modified' to say "Wa ford, Hemel Hemps ead, Lu on" as, back before Estuary English flooded across the south, the area had a notoriety for glottal stopping their 'T's - that's 10 to 20 miles away from Heathrow and given I have that accent, it was a wider area than just that narrow corridor.
Obviously Heathrow has a world's worth of accents, but to get uppity about what is a common 'mispronunciation' in the area where you, the security goon, live is just really assholeish.
Quote from: empirestate on June 06, 2013, 06:06:20 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 02:07:52 PM
The "highway" one sounds right to me. [...] I think that map is a fine example of the difference between the technical usage of various terms like "freeway" or "expressway" and the real-world usage of such terms.
Except that "expressway" isn't a choice; in fact nothing is, other than "freeway" or "highway" in various shades of meaning. I seriously doubt "highway" is the predominant term throughout the Northeast.
We might be saying two different things. Everywhere I've lived I've always heard "the highway" used as the generic term. For example, "At rush hour if you take the highway you'll get stuck in traffic, so go through the streets." I only hear "expressway" used as part of a formal name, like the Staten Island Expressway. I've never heard anyone say "take the expressway" or the like.
Quote from: english si on June 06, 2013, 07:12:16 PM
The Cockney accent, and the near London-originating 'Estuary' accent that is common throughout London suburbia will under pronounce 'T's in the middle of words. One sign on the M1 was 'modified' to say "Wa ford, Hemel Hemps ead, Lu on" as, back before Estuary English flooded across the south, the area had a notoriety for glottal stopping their 'T's - that's 10 to 20 miles away from Heathrow and given I have that accent, it was a wider area than just that narrow corridor.
Obviously Heathrow has a world's worth of accents, but to get uppity about what is a common 'mispronunciation' in the area where you, the security goon, live is just really assholeish.
The London pronunciation would "dough'ee". At least I don't have a "th" in my name that folks from the SE would pronounce with an 'f'!
Security goon honestly thought he caught a set of terrorists because we slur the T into a D and answered "both" when he asked "which is is then?". To be fair though the security goon wasn't himself English and English clearly wasn't his first language. But it's not a problem limited to the UK. I've had similarly stupid runins with our idiotic TSA.
I've lived in Florida for over 30 years, and I usually pronounce it (Flah-ri-duh) like I'm from New Jersey. I guess you can't remove all your birthmarks.
Is the "raining while the sun is out" a joke? I've never heard that term before!
Quote from: formulanone on June 06, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
I've lived in Florida for over 30 years, and I usually pronounce it (Flah-ri-duh) like I'm from New Jersey. I guess you can't remove all your birthmarks.
Is the "raining while the sun is out" a joke? I've never heard that term before!
What, you've never heard of a sunshower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshower)?
Quote from: vtk on June 06, 2013, 07:01:07 PM
To those complaining that certain options were missing from the poll: I'm pretty sure the responses were not limited to 3 or four choices. The responses may or may not have been freeform, but I suspect the survey was performed orally, with the survey taker writing down the responses and possibly categorizing similar responses as identical in the process. However many responses actually exist in the recorded data, the maps display a maximum of four – if there are more than four responses in the data, it appears we get the top three and "other", which is then sometimes larger than the third or even second most common response.
That may well be so, but it still doesn't explain to me the lack of "expressway" as one of the top four answers in certain parts of the country, certainly everywhere I grew up. Likewise, I'd expect "interstate" to be a default in other regions.
I think more likely is that the actual question asked doesn't quite match the one presented on the slide.
Quote from: corco on June 06, 2013, 07:09:11 PM
It's actually kind of interesting that the generic term for "fast road" is highway in the east and freeway in the west, since there's substantially more speed variation between the two classes of road in the east than the west, with freeways moving way faster.
It is interesting, indeed, mainly because in my experience it isn't so. :-)
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 08:15:35 PM
We might be saying two different things. Everywhere I've lived I've always heard "the highway" used as the generic term. For example, "At rush hour if you take the highway you'll get stuck in traffic, so go through the streets." I only hear "expressway" used as part of a formal name, like the Staten Island Expressway. I've never heard anyone say "take the expressway" or the like.
That's a good point. Although I have indeed heard "take the expressway" used that way everywhere
I've lived, or perhaps the network of local freeways referred to collectively as "expressways", it's probably equally common to hear roads referred to specifically: "once we get on the Thruway" or "take the Turnpike" or "there's too much traffic on the LIE; use the parkways".
But it still looks to me as though the question was more about the distinction between "freeway" and "highway", and may not have been framed so as to allow other volunteered terms. If the question asked was "what do you call this? [picture of a controlled-access road]?" then "expressway" and "interstate" would have been given more often than the graphic depicts. If it was instead a picture of a non-controlled-access, high-speed road, then I wouldn't expect to see "freeway" come up hardly at all, and certainly not in California. Rather, and this is assuming pictures were even used at all, maybe there were several different types of road shown, and the respondent asked to label it either "freeway" or "highway"?
Quote from: Brandon on June 06, 2013, 09:57:27 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 06, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
I've lived in Florida for over 30 years, and I usually pronounce it (Flah-ri-duh) like I'm from New Jersey. I guess you can't remove all your birthmarks.
Is the "raining while the sun is out" a joke? I've never heard that term before!
What, you've never heard of a sunshower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshower)?
Your I-55 corridor seems to be a striation of soda in otherwise pop-landia... :)
Quote from: realjd on June 06, 2013, 08:19:34 PMSecurity goon honestly thought he caught a set of terrorists because we slur the T into a D and answered "both" when he asked "which is is then?". To be fair though the security goon wasn't himself English and English clearly wasn't his first language. But it's not a problem limited to the UK. I've had similarly stupid runins with our idiotic TSA.
I am curious as to the context in which this goon was encountered--was it secondary inspection at the gate? (I think this is now required, at least on a sampling basis, for all US-bound flights.) My experience has been that not all passengers are subjected to this inspection and the selection seems to be based on how the passenger handles a verbal exchange that occurs when he or she hands over his or her passport and boarding card at the entrance to the waiting area. I
always get selected for secondary inspection because they have no idea how to handle deaf people.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 11:27:13 PM
Quote from: realjd on June 06, 2013, 08:19:34 PMSecurity goon honestly thought he caught a set of terrorists because we slur the T into a D and answered "both" when he asked "which is is then?". To be fair though the security goon wasn't himself English and English clearly wasn't his first language. But it's not a problem limited to the UK. I've had similarly stupid runins with our idiotic TSA.
I am curious as to the context in which this goon was encountered--was it secondary inspection at the gate? (I think this is now required, at least on a sampling basis, for all US-bound flights.) My experience has been that not all passengers are subjected to this inspection and the selection seems to be based on how the passenger handles a verbal exchange that occurs when he or she hands over his or her passport and boarding card at the entrance to the waiting area. I always get selected for secondary inspection because they have no idea how to handle deaf people.
The usual process at LHR is document check, exit immigration checks (very rarely), the security checkpoint, then at the gate checks for US bound flights. This goon was set up after the document check but before the unused booths for exit immigration and was doing a short, informal interview with every passenger. I assume he was doing the same thing the TSA Behavior Detection Officers do. It wasn't the usual questions about who packed your luggage. It was questions like "where are you headed", "please say your whole name", "what were you doing in the UK", and "when's your birthday". He worked for the company running the security checkpoint, not the UKBA or any other government agency.
If y'all want WAY too much information about North American speech patterns, try this link (don't bother viewing on a mobile phone, the maps are way too big; they're probably too big for an iPad-size screen as well):
http://aschmann.net/AmEng/#SmallMapUnitedStates
Quote from: realjd on June 06, 2013, 08:19:34 PMThe London pronunciation would "dough'ee".
1)which London accent? ;) OK, it could be treated as fractal (certainly in times past, each town and village had their own accent), and non-locals struggle to split accents - for instance I can't tell Geordie and Mackham apart. I don't think anyone but Geordies and Mackhams (people from Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Sunderland respectively) can, but there's a good few native London accents (ie not first gen immigrants).
2)which sounds not very dissimilar to "dough-dee" in a 'London accent'.
QuoteAt least I don't have a "th" in my name that folks from the SE would pronounce with an 'f'!
No, there's a very subtle difference in most SErn accents (Cockney being the exception). Like between bath and barth*, it is hard to distinguish for those who don't have the accent.
*not the Swiss theologian that is pronounced 'Bart'
QuoteTo be fair though the security goon wasn't himself English and English clearly wasn't his first language.
South Asian English accents over-pronounce 'T' (and other hard consonants), just as London area English accents under-pronounce it.
Second Generation immigrants have the local accent.
Quote from: realjd on June 07, 2013, 07:33:35 AMThe usual process at LHR is document check, exit immigration checks (very rarely), the security checkpoint, then at the gate checks for US bound flights. This goon was set up after the document check but before the unused booths for exit immigration and was doing a short, informal interview with every passenger. I assume he was doing the same thing the TSA Behavior Detection Officers do. It wasn't the usual questions about who packed your luggage. It was questions like "where are you headed", "please say your whole name", "what were you doing in the UK", and "when's your birthday". He worked for the company running the security checkpoint, not the UKBA or any other government agency.
Thank you for the explanation--this is completely outside my own experiences at Heathrow, where the usual sequence has been as you describe, except the one time I encountered an exit control was downstream of the security checkpoint and consisted solely of a UKBA officer seated at a raised desk, visually examining passports without making any stamps in them. (I haven't tried it myself, but I suspect it is possible to clear the pre-security document check with boarding card alone; most people usually extend both boarding card and passport, the latter usually being ignored.) I was also under the impression that security screeners in the UK are employed directly by the government, while the personnel who handle secondary inspections at the gate are contractors hired by the airlines in order to comply with a US government mandate for enhanced inspections prior to the departure of any US-bound flight. (Since this obligation rests on any airline that wishes to be allowed to operate scheduled flights to the US, it is a way for the US to assert extraterritorial jurisdiction without formally encroaching on the sovereignty of the countries from which US-bound flights depart.)
I can't imagine the security goon coping well with a deaf person extending a passport, pointing at his ears, and making "Please write it down" gestures in response to every verbal question.
The thing that struck me about the survey was the timing of it, in relation to the results. As best as I can tell, the survey was compiled within a modern context (2012-13).
I grew up in Connecticut in the 70's and 80's, an era in which regional accents were IMO much stronger in difference. Nowadays, a slightly southern drawl is much more common across the country than it ever was back then, as is a general movement toward speaking in a more "neutral" accent.
What I'm saying is that in circa 1978, I spoke just like nearly everyone else in my area. In 2013, my accent isn't as harsh as it once was, partially from moving around the country, partially because of this general movement toward the neutral accent as I got older. It's becoming rarer and rarer that you will hear people speaking like Fran Drescher or like this, unless someone is intentionally exaggerating an accent for the sake of comedy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkDcymPl_Vo
Quote from: english si on June 07, 2013, 09:55:57 AM
1)which London accent? ;) OK, it could be treated as fractal (certainly in times past, each town and village had their own accent), and non-locals struggle to split accents - for instance I can't tell Geordie and Mackham apart. I don't think anyone but Geordies and Mackhams (people from Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Sunderland respectively) can, but there's a good few native London accents (ie not first gen immigrants).
2)which sounds not very dissimilar to "dough-dee" in a 'London accent'.
I was referring to a Ricky Gervais or Simon Pegg style accent. I admittedly don't have the ear for English accent variants like you do but that way of speaking seems prevalent in London. Ricky's is almost a cartoon of the accent.
Quote
QuoteAt least I don't have a "th" in my name that folks from the SE would pronounce with an 'f'!
No, there's a very subtle difference in most SErn accents (Cockney being the exception). Like between bath and barth*, it is hard to distinguish for those who don't have the accent.
*not the Swiss theologian that is pronounced 'Bart'
QuoteTo be fair though the security goon wasn't himself English and English clearly wasn't his first language.
South Asian English accents over-pronounce 'T' (and other hard consonants), just as London area English accents under-pronounce it.
Second Generation immigrants have the local accent.
I was referring to the habit of Londoners to say things like "Norf" instead of "North" or "Fink" instead of "Think". That's more of an urban working class accent from what I can tell. In this case, think Mickey from Doctor Who.
You're correct that it's hard for Americans to differentiate between English accents. We have trouble with our own though also. New York City and Boston sound alike to me, and I'll bet most northerners and foreigners struggle to differentiate between a Georgia accent and a Texas accent.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 07, 2013, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: realjd on June 07, 2013, 07:33:35 AMThe usual process at LHR is document check, exit immigration checks (very rarely), the security checkpoint, then at the gate checks for US bound flights. This goon was set up after the document check but before the unused booths for exit immigration and was doing a short, informal interview with every passenger. I assume he was doing the same thing the TSA Behavior Detection Officers do. It wasn't the usual questions about who packed your luggage. It was questions like "where are you headed", "please say your whole name", "what were you doing in the UK", and "when's your birthday". He worked for the company running the security checkpoint, not the UKBA or any other government agency.
Thank you for the explanation--this is completely outside my own experiences at Heathrow, where the usual sequence has been as you describe, except the one time I encountered an exit control was downstream of the security checkpoint and consisted solely of a UKBA officer seated at a raised desk, visually examining passports without making any stamps in them. (I haven't tried it myself, but I suspect it is possible to clear the pre-security document check with boarding card alone; most people usually extend both boarding card and passport, the latter usually being ignored.) I was also under the impression that security screeners in the UK are employed directly by the government, while the personnel who handle secondary inspections at the gate are contractors hired by the airlines in order to comply with a US government mandate for enhanced inspections prior to the departure of any US-bound flight. (Since this obligation rests on any airline that wishes to be allowed to operate scheduled flights to the US, it is a way for the US to assert extraterritorial jurisdiction without formally encroaching on the sovereignty of the countries from which US-bound flights depart.)
I can't imagine the security goon coping well with a deaf person extending a passport, pointing at his ears, and making "Please write it down" gestures in response to every verbal question.
TSA pulls this nonsense at times also, although they usually have the document checker do it. If I'm not in a hurry, when they order me to state my name, I usually point to it on the ID and say "it's right there". Sometimes they laugh and let me go, sometimes they repeat themselves which I'll follow up with a "can't you read?". One of my coworkers intentionally says something different than what's on his ID. When the TSA person gets alarmed and points out that what's on the drivers license is different, he'll respond with "That's how it's spelled. I'm free to pronounce it however I like". If we can get through pulling crap like that, I'm sure someone deaf would get through without difficulty.
I was polite to the guy in the UK. As much as I may protest and hassle the TSA, in other countries, I'm a guest and they're free to run things however they like.
I don't know who employees the airport screeners in the UK. They may be government employees or they may be contractors. But you're correct about the airline contracted security for the gate checks. Delta uses ISec for that in most parts of the world.
My LHR flying has always been through T4 and I've only seen exit immigration checks once. It was quick. All he did was look through my passport for my entry stamp and then sent me on my way. I was wearing an Arsenal shirt at the time so we talked about them while he was looking for the stamp.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 06, 2013, 03:06:12 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 06, 2013, 02:44:03 PM
....
To be frank, many of the map headings (which I presume were generated by the journalists for public presentation, not by the sociolinguistics researchers themselves, who would have been much more conscious of the need for neutral point of view) rubbed me the wrong way since they implied a particular regional usage is or should be normative.
Agreed; the heading on the map showing the word "been" annoyed me. It says, "Residents of the far North have an oddly Canadian way of pronouncing 'been.'" It shows people in Montana, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Michigan pronouncing it with a short "e," kind of like the name "Ben." I grew up in the DC area and my parents are from Brooklyn and I've almost always heard it pronounced that way. The "bin" pronunciation strikes me as odd because there's no "i" in the word.
I note that on "y'all" they didn't distinguish between "y'all" and "all y'all." "Y'all" can be singular or indefinite; "all y'all" is always plural in that it includes everyone in a group, whereas "y'all" might include a smaller subset. ("Y'all" is one usage I definitely adopted during my years down at Duke because it's useful. It also seems to annoy people from up North for no apparent reason.)
They could have added the pronunciation of names like "Oregon," "Nevada," and "Monroe" as well. I think ultimately with a lot of these things most people grow up using the term (in the case of things like soda or the highway) or the pronunciation (in the case of things like "been") that their parents used. Of course, I suppose you also have things where your parent has some weird pronunciation that you'd be appalled to have anyone else hear. For some reason my father always insisted that the word "booger" is pronounced with the "oo" not as in "book" (the way everyone says it, including the character in Revenge of the Nerds) but rather as in "boolean." Think of the word "boo" (as in, what you do when you don't like the ref's call) and append "ger" to it. I'll never as long as I live forget the day my father, who was the Scoutmaster of our Boy Scout troop, used that word at a patrol leaders' council meeting and one of the other kids immediately yelled, "What the HELL is a 'BOO-ger'???!!!!!" Of course we all started laughing at my father, who couldn't figure it out and claimed that both pronunciations sound the same to him.
Y'all is not singular. It can be used when one person represents a larger group. I see my friend Tony and say " hey why don't Y'ALL come by and watch the game" that would mean he and his wife and kids... If I wanted Tony to come over for a guys nite watching the game I would say " hey why don't YOU come by and watch the game
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 06, 2013, 04:18:06 PM
Quote from: english si on June 06, 2013, 04:12:58 PM
It's worse in Kiwi (pronounced Kee-wee) accents where short i and e vowels don't seem to exist - bit sounds like beet.
furthermore, "sex" sounds like "seex". I was watching a New Zealand movie the other day and it took me about 5 minutes to pick up on that.
Its always funny to watch Kiwis on "house hunters international" when the are discussing the size of the the deck on the back of the house.. " oh my! what a huge deck"
I'd like to see a regional breakdown of the pronunciation of the L in salmon.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
I'm from Minnesota.
I say hot dish, but I recognize that casserole is an alternate term for essentially the same thing. And answering agentsteel downthread, "tuna hot dish", "turkey hot dish", etc. are all perfectly normal uses. This is irrelevant to me as all hot dishes (or casseroles) are disgusting.
It's duck duck grey duck. All the different colors would make no sense if you played something called duck duck goose; goose is just plain wrong.
Groceries go in a cart. My exgf, from Alabama, kept saying buggy and it never made any sense to me. The thing in the parking lot is a "cart corral"; the name is even printed on it!
Kitty-corner, although it's pronounced more like kiddie-corner. Never heard anyone say catty-corner.
Mary, marry and merry all rhyme, but if one of them is different it's marry.
Cot and caught aren't even a little bit alike.
Here's another one: what do you call a multi-level edifice, usually made of concrete, where cars are parked?
Quote from: Coelacanth on June 07, 2013, 04:05:41 PM
Here's another one: what do you call a multi-level edifice, usually made of concrete, where cars are parked?
A parking deck.
Quote from: Coelacanth on June 07, 2013, 04:05:41 PM
....
Here's another one: what do you call a multi-level edifice, usually made of concrete, where cars are parked?
A parking garage.
I'm guessing you call it a "parking ramp." The first time I heard that (on a business trip to St. Paul), I pictured a ramp leading to an underground or above-ground parking structure, not the parking structure itself.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
Casserole
Duck duck goose
Buggy
Catty Corner
Mary=Marry but Merry is different
I am from the Jersey Shore. But my Mom is from North Florida. I have lived in Jacksonville for 24 years, I have aspects of Mid-Atlantic and Lowland South in my accent. I worked for a summer as a cashier at an A&P in Ortley Beach NJ... I asked a lady to move her buggy up and she was so excited. she was from Alabama originally and her Sister-in-law who was with her did not believe that people called shopping carts buggies in the South
I have a Bachelor of Arts in Spanish, I was pretty much fluent at one time but I am really rusty. My Spanish sounds Puerto Rican more than anything else.
Interestingly English accents vary on the vowel sounds, consonants are stable whereas in Spanish different accents vary on consonant sounds and vowels are consistent.
I remember being surprised a long time ago when I first heard the word "carriage" used in Massachusetts for what I always called a "cart" in upstate New York.
How many Simpsons fans think that here in upstate New York, we call hamburgers "steamed hams" (in Albany, but not in Utica)?
I think "steamed hams" was blatantly obvious (to the audience) as flimsy improv.
Quote from: formulanone on June 06, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
I've lived in Florida for over 30 years, and I usually pronounce it (Flah-ri-duh) like I'm from New Jersey. I guess you can't remove all your birthmarks.
Is the "raining while the sun is out" a joke? I've never heard that term before!
I was told by someone born and raised in Jacksonville to pronounce it Flah-ri-duh. Go figure.
Quote from: jwolfer on June 07, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
Y'all is not singular.
Says you. I used to live with a guy who uses
y'all as the singular and
you'uns as the plural. Just goes to show, not everyone uses words the same.
As an aside,
y'all is a very useful word in foreign language classes when conjugating verbs. The tree goes some thing like I, you, he/she;; we, y'all, they.
Quote from: Coelacanth on June 07, 2013, 04:05:41 PM
It's duck duck grey duck. All the different colors would make no sense if you played something called duck duck goose; goose is just plain wrong.
Wait, what? There are colors involved? Hmmmmm..... Just in case you didn't know, Minnesota is the only place that plays Duck Duck Grey Duck. Everywhere else, including Canada, plays Duck Duck Goose. Except in Iillinois, where they play nickels for beer.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
I'm not that far removed from the New Orleans area yet, so that'll be more accurate than where I currently am.
Casserole.
Nope, it's always duck duck goose. Duck duck grey duck? That just sounds weird.
It's a buggy.
Catty-corner.
Quote from: kphoger on June 08, 2013, 01:37:58 PM
I was told by someone born and raised in Jacksonville to pronounce it Flah-ri-duh. Go figure.
You have one too many syllables there. We tend to slur it to Flahr-duh.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
The Quad City answers are casserole, Duck Duck Goose, a grocery cart, and "kitty corner".
"Mary", "merry", and "marry" are all the same.
I use "parking garage" and "parking ramp" interchangeably, and I hear it almost equally.
The Jersey drop of t's in the middle of words also applies to this area. I find it weird to hear the "t" in "Clinton" or "Bettendorf".
Quote from: kphoger on June 08, 2013, 01:37:58 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 06, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
I've lived in Florida for over 30 years, and I usually pronounce it (Flah-ri-duh) like I'm from New Jersey. I guess you can't remove all your birthmarks.
Is the "raining while the sun is out" a joke? I've never heard that term before!
I was told by someone born and raised in Jacksonville to pronounce it Flah-ri-duh. Go figure.
Quote from: jwolfer on June 07, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
Y'all is not singular.
Says you. I used to live with a guy who uses y'all as the singular and you'uns as the plural. Just goes to show, not everyone uses words the same.
As an aside, y'all is a very useful word in foreign language classes when conjugating verbs. The tree goes some thing like I, you, he/she;; we, y'all, they.
Quote from: Coelacanth on June 07, 2013, 04:05:41 PM
It's duck duck grey duck. All the different colors would make no sense if you played something called duck duck goose; goose is just plain wrong.
Wait, what? There are colors involved? Hmmmmm..... Just in case you didn't know, Minnesota is the only place that plays Duck Duck Grey Duck. Everywhere else, including Canada, plays Duck Duck Goose. Except in Iillinois, where they play nickels for beer.
I read it as Grey Goose... Some kinds of drinking game using Grey Goose Vodka? That is the adult version
Quote from: kphoger on June 08, 2013, 01:37:58 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 06, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
I've lived in Florida for over 30 years, and I usually pronounce it (Flah-ri-duh) like I'm from New Jersey. I guess you can't remove all your birthmarks.
Is the "raining while the sun is out" a joke? I've never heard that term before!
I was told by someone born and raised in Jacksonville to pronounce it Flah-ri-duh. Go figure.
Quote from: jwolfer on June 07, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
Y'all is not singular.
Says you. I used to live with a guy who uses y'all as the singular and you'uns as the plural. Just goes to show, not everyone uses words the same.
As an aside, y'all is a very useful word in foreign language classes when conjugating verbs. The tree goes some thing like I, you, he/she;; we, y'all, they.
Quote from: Coelacanth on June 07, 2013, 04:05:41 PM
It's duck duck grey duck. All the different colors would make no sense if you played something called duck duck goose; goose is just plain wrong.
Wait, what? There are colors involved? Hmmmmm..... Just in case you didn't know, Minnesota is the only place that plays Duck Duck Grey Duck. Everywhere else, including Canada, plays Duck Duck Goose. Except in Iillinois, where they play nickels for beer.
The only time I have hear someone use y'all as a singular is someone trying to fake a Southern accent or making fun of Southerners on TV shows like "Family Guy". But I won't deny your life experience.
It fun to listen to people talking. You can pick up little things that give a clue where people are from, where their parents are from and even if English is a second language. My cousins Dad is from Wisconsin, he has lived in Jacksonville for 43 years and married into a Southern family. His Mom and Dad had the Upper Midwest accent ( like on 'Fargo') but he has lost most of it, but my cousins say "fire" like someone from Wisconsin.
People will try and loose their accents but something always comes thru. My mom was with the San Francisco ballet when she was young, she lost here North Florida accent to 'fit in' better.( not too many hillbilly/redneck ballerinas) But her pronunciation of UM-brella gave it away, also buggy for shopping cart, which came into my speech as well as my brother and sister.
On this subject. Lots of actors try and fake accents and it comes out horribly. A show or movie set in modern day Atlanta suburbs like Smyrna, GA, will have some actor with the "Scarlett O'Hara" accent.
I have been really impressed with some foreigners who have nearly perfect American Accents. Hugh Laurie on "House" sound perfect Central/Southern NJ. I was taken aback when I heard him in an interview with his British accent. Another actor who really impresses me with her accent is Toni Collette. she has played lots of Americans and I could not tell that she was Australian, almost perfect Philadelphia accent in " Sixth Sense." ( a lot of time people faking Philadelphia sound like New Yorkers. I always have people tell me I don't sound like I'm from NJ, because I don't sound like Tony Soprano)
Another Aussie who is pretty good is Rachel Griffith.. Toni Collettes co-star in "Muriel's Wedding" she does a pretty good job faking American on "Six Feet Under" and "Brothers and Sisters" but I hear some Australian come out sometimes.
I've frequently heard people down South use "y'all" even when addressing just one person, though probably 90% of the time it's in the context of "how y'all doin'," essentially using that phrase as just a standard greeting. In a sense maybe this is similar to how in French the word "toilettes" is almost always used in the plural even when there's only one toilet.
Regarding the term "buggy" for a shopping cart, I attended a deposition once as a summer associate at a law firm in Alabama where the witness (an elderly black lady who had slipped and fallen at the grocery store) not only referred to the cart as a "buggy," she referred to the hand baskets as "hand buggies." I remember I really had to struggle not to look perplexed when she said "I was going around past where they keep the hand buggies." I have never heard anyone before nor since use that term, though I've heard "buggy" for a wheeled shopping cart a very few times since then.
I'm also curious as to how other colors are involved in Duck Duck Gray Duck. My best guess is that colors of duck other than gray are equivalent to simply "duck" and it's some kind of tactic to confuse or catch the goose / gray duck off guard. Is that it?
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 10, 2013, 10:47:22 AM
I've frequently heard people down South use "y'all" even when addressing just one person, though probably 90% of the time it's in the context of "how y'all doin'," essentially using that phrase as just a standard greeting. In a sense maybe this is similar to how in French the word "toilettes" is almost always used in the plural even when there's only one toilet.
Regarding the term "buggy" for a shopping cart, I attended a deposition once as a summer associate at a law firm in Alabama where the witness (an elderly black lady who had slipped and fallen at the grocery store) not only referred to the cart as a "buggy," she referred to the hand baskets as "hand buggies." I remember I really had to struggle not to look perplexed when she said "I was going around past where they keep the hand buggies." I have never heard anyone before nor since use that term, though I've heard "buggy" for a wheeled shopping cart a very few times since then.
when y'all is used for one person... that person represents a larger entity. ie asking the clerk at 7-11 "where is y'all's Bathroom?" You are addressing one person but the clerk represents a larger organization. "saying where is your bathroom" would imply the clerks personal bathroom. The speaker knows that it is one person, but acknowledging there are others that work there. Or if I said " how are you doing today?" to the clerk... I would be asking about that persons personal health etc. " how are y'all doing today" would mean how is business etc.
But many southerners would not say "how are you doing?" It would just be "hey"
Over the past 20 years it seems to me that y'all usage is becoming more common outside the South. With the migration of African-Americans the usage spread North and West and the mass migration to the Sunbelt its becoming more common among non-Southern whites
I had to look up "Duck, duck, goose" in Wikipedia, just as I had to look there a few months ago to find out what a "wedgie" was.
A country girl from somewhere outside Columbus once insisted to a group of me and my suburban friends that "y'all" is singular while "all y'all" is plural, and anyone using "y'all" to address multiple people is doing it wrong.
Clearly there is regional variation around how, not just whether, "y'all" is used.
Quote from: jwolfer on June 10, 2013, 10:38:34 AMThe only time I have hear someone use y'all as a singular is someone trying to fake a Southern accent or making fun of Southerners on TV shows like "Family Guy". But I won't deny your life experience.
That's odd, as I was told by Southerners that "all y'all" was the plural and y'all is singular.
QuoteHugh Laurie on "House" sound perfect Central/Southern NJ. I was taken aback when I heard him in an interview with his British accent.
I never understand why you guys get surprised that he's English, given he'd done a lot of things before, even stuff that made it to the mainstream over the pond (Blackadder is perhaps a little too parochially British. Ditto Jeeves and Wooster).
In England he's gone down a lot in terms of his recognition - swanning off with the Yanks means less face time over here (his old comedy partner Stephen Fry has earned the recognition status of national treasure, and has time to do rather a lot each year not having a US TV series*, which means that instead of being the goofy one out of Fry and Laurie - and thus more well known - their recognition is in proportion to their waist size, with Fry being the much better known one), but he's still really well known, due to just how amazingly well known he was beforehand.
Actors, especially, find American accents quite easy - 'generic' is easy to do, at least. Most other English accents have the sounds and there's lots of exposure to them.
*last Christmas, the question was asked by all the TV listings: "is there a time slot where you could scan all the standard channels and not see something with him in?". OK, a lot were covered by the repeats channels, but there was a lot of new stuff as well, but the answer to the question was "not really". And it's not like Fry doesn't also have millions of twitter followers and other stuff keeping his brand alive the rest of the year.
Quote from: vtk on June 10, 2013, 12:46:56 PM
Clearly there is regional variation around how, not just whether, "y'all" is used.
Yes, indeed. I've definitely known people who will refer to only one person–no larger entity implied–as
y'all. My old roommate from Oklahoma and Texas, whom I mentioned earlier, used
all y'all for the plural, but mentioned that his family would often use
you'uns instead. He used
y'all as a singular; I'm pretty sure that, when it was just he and I hanging out in the apartment, no larger entity was intended in our conversation.
However, I would not hesitate to say that
y'all is
most commonly used as a plural.
Quote from: vtk on June 10, 2013, 12:46:56 PM
A country girl from somewhere outside Columbus once insisted to a group of me and my suburban friends that "y'all" is singular while "all y'all" is plural, and anyone using "y'all" to address multiple people is doing it wrong.
Clearly there is regional variation around how, not just whether, "y'all" is used.
This is my understanding of it as well. I've been greeted, "Y'all have a nice day now" when leaving the N'awlins trolley.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 10, 2013, 12:32:53 PM
I had to look up "Duck, duck, goose" in Wikipedia, just as I had to look there a few months ago to find out what a "wedgie" was.
So I was just mentioning your reply to my wife (whose family is from Minnesota, hence my knowledge of Duck Duck Grey Duck and hot dishes).
Her reply:
Well, mom never called it a wedgie.– What??
– Yeah, she always called them snuggies.(much laughing)
I'd think if a Snuggie gives you a wedgie, you're wearing it wrong.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
North-central Ohio:
It's a casserole.
It's duck duck goose.
It's a cart unless you're working at Kroger, then it's a BasKart. :-P
Catty-corner (pronounced generally as caddy-corner)
Mary-merry-marry all rhyme pretty much perfectly as well.
Central Ohio:
Casserole. (Yuck.)
Duck duck goose.
Cart. (Or bascart; I actually kind of like that term. Yes, I shop at Kroger.)
Kitty-corner. (Sounds very informal; on the other hand, Catty-corner just sounds wrong.)
When I pronounce "merry", I think I send different commands to my vocal tract than when I pronounce "Mary" or "marry", but the resulting sounds are indistinguishable. (Same with "caught" and "cot", for that matter.) Also, "bury" is pronounced exactly like "berry" which rhymes with "merry" "marry" and "Mary".
And "mayonnaise" starts with exactly the same phonemes as "man", which is pronounced almost (but not exactly) like two syllables "mayin". For an example, find a recording of Neil Armstrong's classic quote. (He was from Ohio.)
Carbonated sweetened soft drinks are called "pop" generally, but sometimes the specific variety is a flavor adjective preceeding "soda". "Soda" without an adjective is unflavored carbonated water, also called "seltzer".
Quote from: vtk on June 11, 2013, 01:59:49 PM
Carbonated sweetened soft drinks are called "pop" generally, but sometimes the specific variety is a flavor adjective preceeding "soda". "Soda" without an adjective is unflavored carbonated water, also called "seltzer".
Soda water, aka club soda, often has salt or other minerals added while seltzer water never does. The term "soda" comes from them traditionally using sodium bicarbonate.
Quote from: vtk on June 10, 2013, 12:14:28 PM
I'm also curious as to how other colors are involved in Duck Duck Gray Duck. My best guess is that colors of duck other than gray are equivalent to simply "duck" and it's some kind of tactic to confuse or catch the goose / gray duck off guard. Is that it?
The person who is "it" or whatever goes around the circle naming ducks. "Blue duck", "green duck", "mauve duck", etc. etc. Eventually they call out "grey duck" which is the equivalent of a goose in that other game where they do it wrong.
Quote from: Coelacanth on June 11, 2013, 05:42:36 PM
Quote from: vtk on June 10, 2013, 12:14:28 PM
I'm also curious as to how other colors are involved in Duck Duck Gray Duck. My best guess is that colors of duck other than gray are equivalent to simply "duck" and it's some kind of tactic to confuse or catch the goose / gray duck off guard. Is that it?
The person who is "it" or whatever goes around the circle naming ducks. "Blue duck", "green duck", "mauve duck", etc. etc. Eventually they call out "grey duck" which is the equivalent of a goose in that other game where they do it wrong.
Bizarre to those of us outside Minnesota where we make it easier by just saying "duck" until we get to the "goose".
Quote from: Brandon on June 11, 2013, 05:55:52 PM
Quote from: Coelacanth on June 11, 2013, 05:42:36 PM
Quote from: vtk on June 10, 2013, 12:14:28 PM
I'm also curious as to how other colors are involved in Duck Duck Gray Duck. My best guess is that colors of duck other than gray are equivalent to simply "duck" and it's some kind of tactic to confuse or catch the goose / gray duck off guard. Is that it?
The person who is "it" or whatever goes around the circle naming ducks. "Blue duck", "green duck", "mauve duck", etc. etc. Eventually they call out "grey duck" which is the equivalent of a goose in that other game where they do it wrong.
Bizarre to those of us outside Minnesota where we make it easier by just saying "duck" until we get to the "goose".
Not to mention that the words "duck duck grey duck" would never actually be said in succession, whereas in "our" version, the words "duck duck goose"
would be said in succession.
This video shows it played with no colors other than gray.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
New polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
Raised in SE VA, but 90% of my family is from either Georgia or South Carolina.
Casserole.
Duck, duck, goose.
Buggy.
Catty-corner.
Mary, marry, and merry all sound identical to me. I've never heard anyone ever pronounce them differently.
Casserole. Duck, duck, goose. Cart. Kitty-corner.
Mary and marry are the same, merry is slightly different (probably moreso with regards to the stress than the vowel).
Live in Washington, and have for a decade or so, but my speech patterns may be holdovers from New Jersey.
Quote from: kphoger on June 06, 2013, 05:03:02 PMNew polls for you guys/y'all to answer:
Reply if you say "hot dish" instead of "casserole", and state where you're from.
Reply if you've ever played "Duck duck grey duck" rather than "Duck duck goose", and state where you're from.
Reply if you put your groceries in a buggy rather than a cart, and state where you're from.
Reply if you say "kitty corner" instead of "catty corner", and state where you're from.
I'm from Georgia (the very outermost Atlanta suburbs), though I was born into a family of very recently transplanted West Virginians.
- Casserole.
- Duck duck goose. I still have no idea what the hell y'all are talking about upthread with all that color stuff.
- I say cart, but I fully acknowledge that I'm weird. Everyone else I knew said buggy.
- I personally don't use either term, but I would say that "catty corner" is probably the more common one.
When I really think about it, I feel like there's a slight difference between Mary and marry, but I don't think it actually manifests in my normal speech pattern. Merry, however, is distinct from both.
I always use "y'all" as a plural, with the "one person may represent a larger entity" proviso as above. "All y'all" is used to specifically indicate that I'm addressing everyone within earshot.
Quote from: realjd on June 09, 2013, 05:00:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 08, 2013, 01:37:58 PM
I was told by someone born and raised in Jacksonville to pronounce it Flah-ri-duh. Go figure.
You have one too many syllables there. We tend to slur it to Flahr-duh.
I got a kick out of one time an NPR host (I think Robert Seigel) was discussing the arnges in Flarda.
Quote from: english si on June 10, 2013, 02:59:13 PM
Actors, especially, find American accents quite easy - 'generic' is easy to do, at least. Most other English accents have the sounds and there's lots of exposure to them.
There are lots who can do a decent generic American accent but to get some of the regional accents is impressive. Lots of people who are faking a NJ accent come out sounding very Brooklyn... even if the show is set in Princeton or Atlantic City. The "Brooklyn" accent in limited to parts of Northeast NJ close to NYC.
As I mentioned in a previous post. Lots of fake Southern accents come out like Scarlett O'Hara.. even those characters who are supposed to be from placed like Knoxville, TN or Jacksonville, FL... I would rather have an actor not try and fake an accent than do it badly.
In an Australian movie "Lantana" I was glad to see Barbara Hershey's character be an American rather than her saying "g'day" throughout. I am not sure if the character was written that way or changed for the actor. (i.e. Olivia Newton-John's character in "Grease" was changed to Australian rather than her trying to fake a Brooklyn accent... funny how the movie was filmed in California but everyone besides ONJ kept the NYC persona as in the stage play)