Okay, I've mentioned this before in another thread, but I'm crazy enough to teach Driver Ed (classroom AND car) each Summer... doing it this month actually.
So, I already know what I'm supposed to teach, and want I LIKE to teach.. been doing it a while. But, here's your chance to get your $.02 in... what things would you want to teach and cover that you think might not be in the typical coursework? What would you want communicated out there new to newbie drivers?
If this is off-topic, please reassign to appropriate location.
ICTRds
"keep right except to pass."
Cover it, beat it into there heads. Just gotta do that to current drivers.
Safe passing and driving around bicyclists is a big one. Telling them not to "wave people" at intersections is another. It is an unsafe practice.
Quote from: sdmichael on June 14, 2013, 01:33:31 PM
Telling them not to "wave people" at intersections is another. It is an unsafe practice.
by "wave people", you mean attempting to negotiate a 4-way stop through hand gestures? "crap, from my frame of reference you got here before I did, but from your frame of reference, I got here before you did... and keep in mind that we're in a non-inertial frame of reference due to the Earth's rotation, so ... fuck, physics is hard; let's just hand-wave it."
We only spent like 10 minutes learning highway skills and it was off-peak traffic when we did. I had to learn merging skills mostly through trial by fire.
Off the top of my head....
–"Keep Right Except to Pass"
–Proper use of turn indicators at roundabouts, including use of the left-turn indicator when you're going more than halfway around (the British Highway Code provides an excellent explanation of how to use your signals at a roundabout, though of course you have to invert everything for driving on the other side of the road– https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/roundabouts-184-to-190 )
–Things that might not be legally "required" but that constitute courtesy and common sense anyway, such as moving over a lane to the left in an interchange when someone's trying to merge onto the highway from the right and leaving adequate space when stopping on an uphill grade in case the person in front of you has a manual shift and rolls back when starting up
–Use of headlights in bad weather because the headlights are as much to help other people see you as they are to help you see
Things I would teach:
1. Merging skills. Teach people how to zipper properly with traffic already on a freeway and how to get up to speed on the ramp, not after merging.
2. The proper use of the accelerator pedal. Teach people how to sue the accelerator pedal to modulate one's speed and to keep one's foot off the brake unless the brake pedal is actually needed. Also teach people how to use the accelerator pedal to get one out of trouble. Accelerator good, brake bad.
3. Navigation skills. Teach them how to interpret signage along the roads to get where they want to go and get over in the proper lane in time.
4. Lane Decorum. Teach people to keep right unless they are passing, and to pass in a timely manner.
5. Attentiveness. Teach people to put the fucking phone down and keep their heads up and their wits about them as they drive.
As it is with most things, my approach would be philosophical, emphasizing ways of thinking as much as specifics.
The road does not belong to you; it belongs to everyone collectively. You do not have rights superior to those of others.
Driving a car is a task. It is not a distraction from your conversation or electronics. Give the task all of your attention.
People die in cars every day. Every time you get into a car, remember that there's a chance you'll never reach your destination.
We have a societal obligation to obey the laws. Further, driving benefits from a sense of personal discipline. Pay attention to and obey stop signs and speed limits (to the extent allowed by the first duty of driving, which is to avoid causing a hazardous condition).
Read every road sign. Check gauges and mirrors often. Keep your eyes and mind moving.
Think ahead. Don't stare at the tail lights in front of you. Remember that you gain nothing by being the first one to the next red light. You waste fuel and save no time running up to the next stop sign or red light at full speed.
A car is not a device meant to make you feel powerful and get even with the world or another person.
Approach every situation and conflict looking for the easiest and most peaceful resolution. Try to grow up past your junior high days, at least when driving.
As for specifics:
There's nothing wrong with going past the street or exit you want and going around the block. If you're not paying attention, don't make a sudden or disruptive maneuver to make your turn or exit. If the street's too narrow to make your turn with the car waiting at the stop sign, just go around the block; don't make everyone wait for you to inch through a turn.
Know where you're going, how to get there, and how to recover from a navigational error, before you leave.
Understand your car's warning lights and how to respond to them.
React to understeer skids gradually, and increasingly as needed. Don't swing the steering wheel; make small adjustments and increase as needed. Don't correct an understeer condition with an oversteer.
This one isn't really appropriate for driver ed, but young people need to hear it:
Buying a brand new car is almost always a waste of money. If you have money to waste, that's fine. If you're 20 years old making payments on a brand new car to drive around town, you made a big mistake. If you have to make payments on any car for longer than 3 years, you probably can't afford it.
Quote from: wxfree on June 14, 2013, 04:20:28 PMspeed limits (to the extent allowed by the first duty of driving, which is to avoid causing a hazardous condition).
I'd tell people "go the speed of traffic".
speed limit reform is badly, badly needed in the US. if it is well known, by everybody doing 78, that the enforced speed limit is 80, then why are we not stamping out SPEED LIMIT 80 signs three shifts a day?
don't be that clown doing precisely 65 - even in the right lane! - causing people to have to pass you, thereby being a source of congestion.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 14, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: wxfree on June 14, 2013, 04:20:28 PMspeed limits (to the extent allowed by the first duty of driving, which is to avoid causing a hazardous condition).
I'd tell people "go the speed of traffic".
speed limit reform is badly, badly needed in the US. if it is well known, by everybody doing 78, that the enforced speed limit is 80, then why are we not stamping out SPEED LIMIT 80 signs three shifts a day?
don't be that clown doing precisely 65 - even in the right lane! - causing people to have to pass you, thereby being a source of congestion.
Jake, much agreed. I'm sick of self-appointed speed cops on the road who think it is their duty to make everyone obey an absurdly low speed limit on the freeway.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 14, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: wxfree on June 14, 2013, 04:20:28 PMspeed limits (to the extent allowed by the first duty of driving, which is to avoid causing a hazardous condition).
I'd tell people "go the speed of traffic".
speed limit reform is badly, badly needed in the US. if it is well known, by everybody doing 78, that the enforced speed limit is 80, then why are we not stamping out SPEED LIMIT 80 signs three shifts a day?
don't be that clown doing precisely 65 - even in the right lane! - causing people to have to pass you, thereby being a source of congestion.
Even more needed in Canada. (100 km/h / ± 60 mph in almost all provinces)
The "keep right except to pass" and "turn on headlights when it rains" stuff is already in the books. Perhaps not emphasized enough, but it's still there.
The roadgeek in me would spend at least an hour, ideally half a day or more, covering the basic highway geography in the area, obviously starting with the freeways. Then teach them how to read maps and how to use a GPS
properly. Navigation is an important part of driving, and is severely neglected in driver's ed.
I'd hand out free state/province maps at the end.
I would generalize the instruction to "do not be a source of congestion".
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 14, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: wxfree on June 14, 2013, 04:20:28 PMspeed limits (to the extent allowed by the first duty of driving, which is to avoid causing a hazardous condition).
I'd tell people "go the speed of traffic".
speed limit reform is badly, badly needed in the US. if it is well known, by everybody doing 78, that the enforced speed limit is 80, then why are we not stamping out SPEED LIMIT 80 signs three shifts a day?
don't be that clown doing precisely 65 - even in the right lane! - causing people to have to pass you, thereby being a source of congestion.
I added the parenthetical note due to the absurd speed limits in many places. I think Texas has the right idea with 75 mph speed limits on most freeways and many two-lane roads. Still, there are urban freeways with lower limits where driving at legal speeds will cause a line of constant passing traffic. That's a hazardous condition, so I'll either go fast enough to prevent it or exit and use other roads.
My rule is meant to express a principle, but also be adaptable to different situations. When driving in traffic, you should keep up with the common speed. My thoughts are based on my highway experience, most of which is on roads with speed limits of 75 and sometimes 80, but where you could ride a bicycle in the middle of the lane and not cause much disruption. I believe a sense of discipline is important. On long lonely roads, I think you should have the discipline to hold a reasonable speed, and not try for warp speed just because there's no one in front slowing you down.
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on June 14, 2013, 04:37:50 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 14, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: wxfree on June 14, 2013, 04:20:28 PMspeed limits (to the extent allowed by the first duty of driving, which is to avoid causing a hazardous condition).
I'd tell people "go the speed of traffic".
speed limit reform is badly, badly needed in the US. if it is well known, by everybody doing 78, that the enforced speed limit is 80, then why are we not stamping out SPEED LIMIT 80 signs three shifts a day?
don't be that clown doing precisely 65 - even in the right lane! - causing people to have to pass you, thereby being a source of congestion.
Even more needed in Canada. (100 km/h / ± 60 mph in almost all provinces)
The "keep right except to pass" and "turn on headlights when it rains" stuff is already in the books. Perhaps not emphasized enough, but it's still there.
The roadgeek in me would spend at least an hour, ideally half a day or more, covering the basic highway geography in the area, obviously starting with the freeways. Then teach them how to read maps and how to use a GPS properly. Navigation is an important part of driving, and is severely neglected in driver's ed.
I'd hand out free state/province maps at the end.
Navigation skills is one of the biggest areas, if not the biggest area that drivers' education is sorely lacking. Far too much time was spent on seat belts (OK, we wear them anyway, big flipping deal), accidents (the goal, IMHO, is avoidance), and drunk driving (big flipping yawn, under 16, not supposed to drink regardless) than on navigation. Yet, the biggest problem I see on the roads is a complete and total lack of navigational skills by the typical driver. I have seen more close calls caused by a severe lack of navigational skills when people make last minute decisions to take an exit ramp on the other side of the freeway, enter a turn lane late (or turn from the wrong lane), or simply get lost and not pay any attention to where they are going.
This is an excellent topic. I wish I could teach drivers ed because I think that I could do it better than the current system.
This biggest change would be road/situational based education. This means students would be taught how to drive on each type of road, and each type of intersection, and what to lookout for in each situation. Students would be taught to decipher the type of roadway thay are intersecting, so they know what to do. For example, when pulling out of a driveway, look to see if the road is divided or two way, since there are often no regulatory signs.
Work zones and standard work zone setups would be included in this.
Also, concepts such as being in the correct lane at a double turn if your going to turn again just past the first turn. Also, avoiding left turn onto thoughrofares at unsignalized intersections by exiting parking lots onto side streets where there is a signal.
How to drive in parking lots would be important. People often think that parking lots are more safe than streets whwn in fact accidents are far more likely there. i would teach driving down the middle of aisles when no oncoming traffic is present to give backing vehicles more buffer space since they cannot see, and teach people to park where they don't have to back into the busy "road" in the parking lot that goes in front of the store.
How to use a/c /heater to prevent windshield fogging.
The fact that different vehicle types handle differntly. A car basically much less likelyto lose traction on wet pavement, while a pickup will very easily.
I agree hazard perception skills are important and there is more that can be done to teach them in terms of book learning--AAA's Sportsmanlike Driving (which was used in my driver education class more than 20 years ago) doesn't quite cut it. I'd suggest Roadcraft, but it is oriented for UK drivers, so the illustrations and text descriptions assume typical British roadscapes with TSRGD-compliant signing and there would need to be literally dozens of pages of glosses to cover the equivalent cases in the US.
As to other useful texts for a driver education class:
* The current MUTCD and any state-level traffic design policy documents which may apply (e.g., state MUTCD supplement, state sign drawings book, etc.), as well as an assortment of past MUTCD editions and traffic documents in states like California which have a large overhang of signing done to obsolete standards
* Any recent-ish edition of the AASHTO Green Book
* Any edition of the Highway Capacity Manual from 1965 onward
Some other curriculum elements I would like to see included:
* Basic workings of route numbering systems (distinction between odd and even US and Interstate numbers, number progression in both systems, types of numbering schemes used for state routes in various states, how to differentiate between primary and secondary routes in states which have two-tier state highway networks, etc.)
* Transport geography 101: A short description of functional classification, the level-of-service concept, how they interact given the road network extent and population of a given area, and what this means for drivers in terms of route selection
* An explanation of the doctrine of sovereign immunity and how it applies to a highway agency's improvement and maintenance activities (underlying message: don't drive in a way that leaves you exposed if the agency fails to meet expectations formed on the basis of published standards or usual practice. A classic example of this is running off the road in the middle of a curve because the curve warning sign lacks an advisory speed plate)
* Basic principles of defensive driving (be alert to the unexpected, both from the roadway and from other users; always leave yourself an out; always seek to maximize visibility; always choose a speed and direction that is consistent with your forward visibility; never gratuitously inconvenience other drivers, but also never allow yourself to be bullied into carrying out maneuvers when you are not satisfied that they are safe)
* Mapping: what it is for, how to get it, how to evaluate its reliability, how to use it, how it relates to other sources of geospatial information such as guide signs
* The distinction between what is legal and what is considered best practice (for example, cell phone usage is still legal in most US states with the exception of texting, but it is best practice never to use either a handheld or hands-free cell phone when driving)
For extra credit:
* How to read the physical culture of the highway (if you have this skill, you will never be bored, even on a flat road in a radio dead zone)
Teaching students the importance of turn signals. I can't say how many times I've seen people cut me off at the last second and not use the signal. Not only does it piss everyone else off, it's incredibly hazardous. Especially on highways / freeways.
I can't tell you how mad I get when people tailgate me when I drive the specific school zones. Where I'm at, there's a 25 MPH school zone within a 35 MPH zone along South Russell Street. God, that pisses me off when people do that.
Flow of traffic and traffic impediment laws. It's unsafe to be more than 10 above or below the flow of traffic, even if the flow of traffic is 20 above the posted speed limit. Unfortunately, cops vary enforcement by region, and some cops care about the letter of the law, while others care about safety. It's sort of a gamble, and theoretically, you can get pulled over at any speed unless the flow is actually at or below the speed limit.
How to identify boobytraps. Every place has some just waiting to ensnare the unwary or careless. Being able to identify hazards rates as the top priority in my book for driver's ed. Driving a car is easy. Driving it safely is not!
Rick
Quote from: Brandon on June 14, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 14, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: wxfree on June 14, 2013, 04:20:28 PMspeed limits (to the extent allowed by the first duty of driving, which is to avoid causing a hazardous condition).
I'd tell people "go the speed of traffic".
speed limit reform is badly, badly needed in the US. if it is well known, by everybody doing 78, that the enforced speed limit is 80, then why are we not stamping out SPEED LIMIT 80 signs three shifts a day?
don't be that clown doing precisely 65 - even in the right lane! - causing people to have to pass you, thereby being a source of congestion.
Jake, much agreed. I'm sick of self-appointed speed cops on the road who think it is their duty to make everyone obey an absurdly low speed limit on the freeway.
I agree in principle, but every speeding infraction I've ever gotten has been going with the traffic flow. I'm tired of being subject to the fines and penalties when I'm actually reducing the hazard.
*An introduction to left turn phasing, such as yield on green ball, flashing yellow arrows, lead/lag and twice per cycle lefts, yellow traps, and the nasty habit of some signals to severely reduce the amount of time the left turn arrow gets if the pedestrian phase gets called up on the cross street so that only one car will make it through on a green arrow.
* An introduction to U-turns, with an emphasis on the fact that a U-turn on a green left turn arrow may put one in conflict with a right turner who also has a green arrow.
* Merging, with coverage of forced merges/inside lane merges.
* Lane control signals/reversible lanes - even though these are rare, there should still be coverage of them in case one does travel to a state like Kentucky that uses them.
* New ideas in roadway geometry such as CFI's, DDI's and Michigan lefts.
I agree with 'slower traffic keep right' and the turn signal thing, but I would also put more emphasis on the priority rules at intersections (ie, who goes first in the various situations). I prefer the European term 'priority' to 'right of way', BTW, as I consider it to be clearer and without other meanings that could be confusing.
Also teach them to pay attention to someone signalling a turn as they approach an intersection that they are stopped at to make sure that that vehicle is actually going to make its turn at that intersection before they go - he or she MAY be planning to turn into that driveway that is just past the intersection (I've almost broadsided others on several occasions because of this).
:-o
Mike
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 15, 2013, 11:50:16 AM
* An introduction to U-turns, with an emphasis on the fact that a U-turn on a green left turn arrow may put one in conflict with a right turner who also has a green arrow.
Might also want to mention that they're illegal in many jurisdictions. Making a U turn in NY when the intersection doesn't explicitly say they're allowed is a good way to get a ticket.
Quote from: Brandon on June 14, 2013, 03:30:20 PM
....
5. Attentiveness. Teach people to put the fucking phone down and keep their heads up and their wits about them as they drive.
To this I would add "including while stopped at a red light." Yesterday afternoon I blew my horn five times at traffic lights at people who didn't move when the light went green because they were playing with mobile phones. (Usually I just give two quick beeps of the horn. But if the same driver does it at consecutive lights, I give a loud blast of the horn the second time.) So many people fail to notice the light is green these days. It makes me think of those "While we're young" commercials running during the US Open.
(0) Basic overview of the mechanical systems of the vehicle - including - how to change a tire and warning lights in the vehicle for the braking system.
(1) How to safely enter and exit a freeway. Acceleration, merging, deceleration and exiting.
(2) How to signal intentions before a lane change, not during the lane change or after the lane change. Related - when another driver signals a lane change, let them in and do not speed up to prevent same.
(3) No Nestoring - especially on a four lane highway, keep to the right except to pass. On six or eight lane roads, leave the left lane for those that want to pass (exceptions made for left-side exits and if the road is operating at level-of-service "F").
(4) No stopping on freeways (and other high-speed roads where stopping is not allowed).
(5) Search pattern for problems and hazards on the road ahead. Related to this is anticipating what other drivers might be doing.
(6) How to navigate the highway network (without and with a GPS unit).
(7) MUTCD overview. Does not have to be as detailed as some members of this site, but should cover the basics.
(8) Financial and other consequences of DWI and reckless driving convictions.
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 15, 2013, 11:50:16 AM
U-turn on a green left turn arrow may put one in conflict with a right turner who also has a green arrow.
does this ever happen? in California, the green right arrow does not appear when a conflicting U-turn is permitted. green right arrow occurs only perpendicular to a NO U TURN.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 15, 2013, 08:26:13 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 15, 2013, 11:50:16 AM
U-turn on a green left turn arrow may put one in conflict with a right turner who also has a green arrow.
does this ever happen? in California, the green right arrow does not appear when a conflicting U-turn is permitted. green right arrow occurs only perpendicular to a NO U TURN.
It does indeed. There's a situation like that less than two miles from my house. A "U-Turn Yield to Right Turn" sign is posted, but most of the U-turners ignore it–or, more likely, they don't notice it at all.
without a sign, it would be ambiguous. I know left turn has to yield to straight or right, but while I would assume U-turn had to yield to right turn, I do not know that for sure.
is there a situation where there is no signage for who has to give way? in California, I generally assume that the right-turning traffic has a red light, and therefore must stop and yield, but that's only because here that is how things are designed.
Quote from: Brandon on June 14, 2013, 04:27:42 PMI'm sick of self-appointed speed cops on the road who think it is their duty to make everyone obey an absurdly low speed limit on the freeway.
That absurdly low speed limit on the freeway is most likely there for a reason, and I'm betting you know what the reason is.
Hint: It has nothing to do with safety.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 15, 2013, 08:26:13 PM
does this ever happen? in California, the green right arrow does not appear when a conflicting U-turn is permitted. green right arrow occurs only perpendicular to a NO U TURN.
It could technically happen almost all the time in Chicagoland since U-turns are allowed unless a U-turn prohibition sign is present. Most of the intersections do not have any 'U-Turn yield to right turn' signs. If there is a high volumes of U-turns anticipated during the design phase though the right turn arrow is usually not installed.
Having done the U-turn maneuver a few times it seems the right turners are more willing to yield, but there have been a couple awkward times where no one want to be the first to complete their maneuver.
Quote from: SidS1045 on June 15, 2013, 10:41:56 PM\
That absurdly low speed limit on the freeway is most likely there for a reason, and I'm betting you know what the reason is.
Hint: It has nothing to do with safety.
$orry, I'm cluele$$...
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 15, 2013, 11:25:23 PM
It could technically happen almost all the time in Chicagoland since U-turns are allowed unless a U-turn prohibition sign is present. Most of the intersections do not have any 'U-Turn yield to right turn' signs. If there is a high volumes of U-turns anticipated during the design phase though the right turn arrow is usually not installed.
Having done the U-turn maneuver a few times it seems the right turners are more willing to yield, but there have been a couple awkward times where no one want to be the first to complete their maneuver.
do these right turning folks get an explicit right-turn green arrow?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 15, 2013, 11:48:18 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 15, 2013, 11:25:23 PM
It could technically happen almost all the time in Chicagoland since U-turns are allowed unless a U-turn prohibition sign is present. Most of the intersections do not have any 'U-Turn yield to right turn' signs. If there is a high volumes of U-turns anticipated during the design phase though the right turn arrow is usually not installed.
Having done the U-turn maneuver a few times it seems the right turners are more willing to yield, but there have been a couple awkward times where no one want to be the first to complete their maneuver.
do these right turning folks get an explicit right-turn green arrow?
Not always - some do, some don't. However, there's no way of knowing, from a right-turn perspective, that a driver will be making a U-Turn from the left turn lane. Welcome to the highly inconsistent world of IDOT.
Quote from: Brandon on June 14, 2013, 05:18:01 PM
Navigation skills is one of the biggest areas, if not the biggest area that drivers' education is sorely lacking. Far too much time was spent on seat belts (OK, we wear them anyway, big flipping deal), accidents (the goal, IMHO, is avoidance), and drunk driving (big flipping yawn, under 16, not supposed to drink regardless) than on navigation. Yet, the biggest problem I see on the roads is a complete and total lack of navigational skills by the typical driver. I have seen more close calls caused by a severe lack of navigational skills when people make last minute decisions to take an exit ramp on the other side of the freeway, enter a turn lane late (or turn from the wrong lane), or simply get lost and not pay any attention to where they are going.
I agree. The Driver's ed classes offered in my school district spend at least half of a marking period (4.5 weeks) on drunk driving. Considering that the class is only supposed to last a full marking period (9 weeks), they hardly spend any time at all on navigational skills. While DUI education is a noble cause and should be taught in a driver's ed class, it should not take up as much time as it does.
Pedestrians have the right of way at crosswalks, and a crosswalk is any intersection, with or without painted lines, where pedestrians are not expressly prohibited. Pedestrians often have less judgement about traffic than licensed drivers, so it's the responsibility of the driver to keep the pedestrian safe.
It's a driver's responsibility to avoid an accident whenever possible. Getting into an accident that you could have avoided can get you a ticket, financial responsibility for the damage, and higher insurance rates, even if the other party should have yielded the right of way.
Wow! This topic just blew up! Thanks for all of your ideas. I, for the greater part, cover pretty much all of these things. A lot of DrEd teachers just go through it mechanically. I bring my inner RoadGeek out, and I cover this stuff... I cover the book topics, and then get realistic.
And I DO spend time on the highway system (numbering) and route planning.
Keep it coming! I'm glad to know I am amongst similar minds here!
ICTRds
Something I was thinking about Saturday while driving on some two-lane roads: If your car doesn't have DRLs, turning on your headlights on two-lane roads, even during the day, can be really helpful in making your car visible to people coming the other way who might be thinking about pulling out to try to pass someone, especially during the summer when you get that heat mirage effect that makes the road look like it's disappearing into water. I first saw this when I was a kid on family vacations to Canada. They didn't require DRLs yet, but the vast majority of drivers on the Trans-Canada Highway outside urban areas seemed to use their headlights all the time for exactly this sort of reason. I always liked the idea and have always done it, at least on two-lane roads that have passing zones anyway (meaning I don't necessarily use lights during the day on urban two-lane roads).
I tend to err in favor of turning on my lights whenever I have any doubt about visibility. It can't hurt.
I think it's the law now in Canada that you must have lights on at all times when the car is in operation. If you don't have DRL, you must turn on the main headlights. In Washington, it's not the law, but many people do so anyway.
In addition to what has alerady been mentioned, I'd stress the dangers of using a cell phone to talk/text while driving. In this age of the Internet, iPods/iPhones/iPads, smartphones, etc., they're becoming a major problem on our streets and highways today, much like drunk driving was back in the 90s.
Quote from: Henry on June 17, 2013, 10:55:21 AM
In addition to what has alerady been mentioned, I'd stress the dangers of using a cell phone to talk/text while driving. In this age of the Internet, iPods/iPhones/iPads, smartphones, etc., they're becoming a major problem on our streets and highways today, much like drunk driving was back in the 90s.
What? Drunk Driving has always been a problem...
some freeway observations. in short: people need to learn how to drive on the freeway efficiently, in such a way as to minimize congestion. remember, the ideal freeway driver is as follows: if you were eliminated from the road, the traffic pattern should remain unchanged. in other words, you should, in the ideal sense, add zero congestion.
first, passing. when you pass, increase your speed slightly from your cruising speed. this allows the incidence time to diminish - i.e. you're not creeping past the other car. you should attempt to minimize the amount of time you spend between the following endpoints: 1) when you enter the other driver's blind spot, 2) when the other driver exits your blind spot. about 3-4 mph of extra oomph will really get things going more efficiently.
this goes double for trucks. nobody likes being beside a truck - neither you, nor the people behind you. so, get things moving! certainly, under no circumstances whatsoever, should you slow down while passing a truck. that reeks of ineptitude, cowardice, and contempt for your fellow road users.
and one more note - never slow down when passing to "pull alongside". flying in formation is dangerous. doubly so when you're passing on the right. if you can't be arsed to speed up a few miles per hour to diminish the time spent passing, at least maintain your comfortable speed. never, ever slow down while passing someone.
second - that comfortable speed I keep mentioning: find one. live it, love it, be it. cruise control is your best friend. for the average driver, it will save you one tank of gas every 20. maybe one every five if you're extra terrible at regulating your speed otherwise. definitely don't waver on the freeway. if two cars each have their own comfortable speed, they will see each other precisely once (barring gas stops). nobody wants to see the same car over and over again - playing leapfrog is for three-year-olds.
and on a completely different topic: you will make mistakes while driving. this is not an if, this is a when.
so, don't worry about administrative mistakes. nobody, except maybe Rain Man, can be arsed to remember that there are N jurisdictions scattered about the US in which it is illegal to make a u-turn, a right turn on red, etc. these are, under most circumstances, perfectly safe maneuvers; to do them in a safe manner increases the capacity of the road. so go ahead and do them, and don't for a minute worry if it's Buckshot, Wisconsin, or Buckskin, Wyoming, that forbids using the two-direction left turn lane as an entry lane.
Quote from: kkt on June 17, 2013, 10:01:40 AM
I think it's the law now in Canada that you must have lights on at all times when the car is in operation. If you don't have DRL, you must turn on the main headlights. In Washington, it's not the law, but many people do so anyway.
Just one problem: some cars have auto-dimming controls that assume that headlights are only used at night and so dim the controls whenever the headlights are on. If I use the headlights in daylight, I can't see anything on the dashboard.
Flashing yellow lights do NOT mean "come to a complete stop," especially where it's a yellow-only light, OR at a signal that's under study to be removed.
Quote from: vdeane on June 17, 2013, 08:14:21 PM
Quote from: kkt on June 17, 2013, 10:01:40 AM
I think it's the law now in Canada that you must have lights on at all times when the car is in operation. If you don't have DRL, you must turn on the main headlights. In Washington, it's not the law, but many people do so anyway.
Just one problem: some cars have auto-dimming controls that assume that headlights are only used at night and so dim the controls whenever the headlights are on. If I use the headlights in daylight, I can't see anything on the dashboard.
Mine has that but I can override it by hitting the "MAX" button that boosts the dash to full brightness (it works as a toggle, so I hit it again to return to auto-dimming). Given laws about using lights during the day in bad weather, I have to think most cars would provide some sort of way to override auto-dimming.
I also believe that much more emphasis should be placed on navigation skills. When I took drivers ed in the mid-1970s, we were given an interesting classroom assignment. We were each given a road atlas and a destination, and told to plot a route from Boston. Further, we had to identify the major junction points where our route changed, and explain why we chose the route we did.
As I recall, I was one of only three or four students, out of a class of 30, who finished the assignment on time and to the satisfaction of the instructor.
Speaking as a Wichita resident, I would say the two most appropriate suggestions (besides the ones you're already covering such as keeping right except to pass) are these:
1. The proper way to signal turns at a roundabout. I don't think I've seen a single driver use a turn signal at all at a roundabout in Wichita. We have a few in town to practice on.
2. Pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks. People don't seem to get the concept here. Just yesterday, my wife and two boys and I were walking/jogging under the canal route, and came to where the path crosses 9th Street. That crosswalk has white lines across the pavement and big yellow signs. We had already crossed half the road, and were standing in the median about three inches from the other travel lanes–a family of four with a stroller–and not a single driver even slowed down to let us across. I wonder if they would even have stopped if we'd simply walked out into the road. Now, I'm sure the topic of crosswalks is covered, but be very clear about what consitutes a crosswalk, both marked and unmarked.
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2013, 05:11:33 PM
Speaking as a Wichita resident, I would say the two most appropriate suggestions (besides the ones you're already covering such as keeping right except to pass) are these:
1. The proper way to signal turns at a roundabout. I don't think I've seen a single driver use a turn signal at all at a roundabout in Wichita. We have a few in town to practice on.
I'm not even sure what is the right way to use a signal in a roundabout. Anyway, with one hand on the stick and one on the steering wheel, I don't have a third hand for the turn signal stalk.
Quote from: Brandon on June 18, 2013, 07:15:52 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2013, 05:11:33 PM
Speaking as a Wichita resident, I would say the two most appropriate suggestions (besides the ones you're already covering such as keeping right except to pass) are these:
1. The proper way to signal turns at a roundabout. I don't think I've seen a single driver use a turn signal at all at a roundabout in Wichita. We have a few in town to practice on.
I'm not even sure what is the right way to use a signal in a roundabout. Anyway, with one hand on the stick and one on the steering wheel, I don't have a third hand for the turn signal stalk.
All the more reason for it to be
taught in driver's ed.
Turning right? Right turn signal.
Going straight? No turn signal on entry, right turn signal on exit.
Turning left? Left turn signal on entry, switch it off partway through, right turn signal on exit.
So your signal goes on
before you enter the roundabout, no need for an extra hand. To signal your exit, you only need to do so as you move the wheel from "turning left" position to "turning right" position, which puts the stalk right by your left hand as it moves past. Sorry, no sympathy here. Millions of drivers the world over have found a way to shift, steer, and signal–also called "driving".
For sure- at the very, very least throw your right signal on before you leave the roundabout so cars entering know you're about to leave
Quote from: corco on June 18, 2013, 08:19:13 PM
For sure- at the very, very least throw your right signal on before you leave the roundabout so cars entering know you're about to leave
this has to be institutional behavior before I learn to trust it. people here have their right turn signals on for all kinds of conflicting or spurious reasons, so "he's got his right turn signal on" is insufficient impetus for me to turn in front of a vehicle. he could indeed be turning before intersecting my path. or he could be turning after. or he just likes having his turn signal on because he's got the intelligence of a paper towel.
All the more reason for it to be taught in driver's ed.
I agree 100% with kphoger, as reflected in my comment on the first page of this thread. Roundabouts work best when you don't have to guess at what other drivers will do–if everyone signals properly, then it's clear whether you need to yield or whether you can go ahead. Problem is, because some people don't signal, you never know if you're encountering someone who isn't signalling because he's going straight (taking the second exit) or because he's either ignorant or just an arsehole.
Virginia's driver's manual doesn't teach the use of the left indicator when you're going more than halfway around and it's a serious oversight. I have no idea whether roundabouts are even mentioned in driver's ed classes beyond the text in the manual.
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2013, 05:11:33 PMI don't think I've seen a single driver use a turn signal at all at a roundabout in Wichita.
I know I have seen drivers signal right on exit and I think I have seen several signal on entry when going right. I have never seen anyone signal left on entry--I know to do that only as a result of living in Britain.
Wichita does have multiple roundabouts, but I am not aware of any outside Riverside, nor do I think we have any multi-lane roundabouts. (The two in Riverside--one at Stackman and Nims, and the other at the bottom end of West River Boulevard--are both single-lane.) It will get interesting when Wichita drivers try to figure out spiral markings.
Edit: I forgot about the Delano roundabout (Douglas and Sycamore)--which is also one-lane. A dumbbell roundabout (teardrop type) was considered (http://www.ite.org/meetings/2009TC/Session%206_Sirisha%20Pillalamarri.pdf) for the Kellogg/Webb/Turnpike interchange, but rejected because it had poor upgradability and was at a critical location which was considered unsuitable for experimentation. I have been told that roundabouts might be used if I-235/Zoo Boulevard is ever upgraded (again), but personally I doubt this because traffic volumes on Zoo alone are in excess of the 20,000 VPD at which roundabouts fail.
[off topic]
I agree that the Zoo Blvd interchange would be a roundabout fail. It really deserves to be something more free-flowing.
[/off topic]
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2013, 08:05:40 PM
1. The proper way to signal turns at a roundabout.
Turning left? Left turn signal on entry, switch it off partway through, right turn signal on exit.
That's proper? Left turn signal then curving to the right?
Sometimes, turn signals shouldn't be used. Honestly. Almost all turning is supposed to be done using two hands (remember THAT from drivers ed??). Since you are in a round about, you are constantly turning. A driver simply doesn't have a hand available to keep playing with the turn signal. I drive with someone who over-utilizes his turn signal (even going around someone parked on the curb of the roadway) and I don't think I've ever seen him use a turn signal in a traffic circle.
As for what I would teach:
Keep Right Except to Pass.
Merging.
Stopping (behind the stop line. Not on the cross walk)
Using a two-way left turn lane.
Keeping Right Except to Pass.
Paying attention to road signs.
Basic understanding of the route system.
Turning. (Don't cut the wheel to the left to turn right.)
What "Exit Only" mean.
Other things that are relative to the local/regional area.
I wouldn't go as far as to try to teach someone what driving situations one may find in other areas of the country. The students are new drivers and are very unlikely to be making cross-country trips. If the students are in Wisconsin and area residents are frequently in Michigan, then teaching about Michigan lefts may be relative. But telling them about road features in Texas is useless info that would only confuse them. It's hard enough for them to figure out the pressure needed for the gas and brake pedals; much less informing them of the history of Botts Dots or something they will rarely encounter and could care less about anyway.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2013, 09:31:41 AMI wouldn't go as far as to try to teach someone what driving situations one may find in other areas of the country. The students are new drivers and are very unlikely to be making cross-country trips. If the students are in Wisconsin and area residents are frequently in Michigan, then teaching about Michigan lefts may be relative. But telling them about road features in Texas is useless info that would only confuse them. It's hard enough for them to figure out the pressure needed for the gas and brake pedals; much less informing them of the history of Botts Dots or something they will rarely encounter and could care less about anyway.
There are two reasons I can't agree with this. First, many learners do extended driving out of state--for example, I drove several hundred miles (supervised) in Nebraska on a Kansas instructional permit. (I told my driver education instructor about it, and he advised me that Nebraska might not recognize a Kansas permit as valid, but did not say "Don't do it.") Second, a lowest-common-denominator curriculum in driver education classes only encourages intelligent and motivated students to disengage.
What I would hesitate to do is to make students accountable for a large amount of information on assignments, tests, and other formal assessments, since for relatively motivated students the stress of making themselves encyclopedically letter-perfect (at a time when they are also struggling with demanding core classes) only gets in the way of learning.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2013, 09:31:41 AM
Stopping (behind the stop line. Not on the cross walk)
sometimes it is impossible to take off safely from behind the stop line - parked cars may occlude one's vision.
in that case, I stop at the stop line, look for pedestrians, then roll forward and stop again where I have the ability to see. yeah, I'm illegally blocking the crosswalk - I'm also avoiding a collision. it's terrible road design, but for some reason it is prevalent.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 20, 2013, 11:06:30 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2013, 09:31:41 AMI wouldn't go as far as to try to teach someone what driving situations one may find in other areas of the country. The students are new drivers and are very unlikely to be making cross-country trips. If the students are in Wisconsin and area residents are frequently in Michigan, then teaching about Michigan lefts may be relative. But telling them about road features in Texas is useless info that would only confuse them. It's hard enough for them to figure out the pressure needed for the gas and brake pedals; much less informing them of the history of Botts Dots or something they will rarely encounter and could care less about anyway.
There are two reasons I can't agree with this. First, many learners do extended driving out of state--for example, I drove several hundred miles (supervised) in Nebraska on a Kansas instructional permit. (I told my driver education instructor about it, and he advised me that Nebraska might not recognize a Kansas permit as valid, but did not say "Don't do it.") Second, a lowest-common-denominator curriculum in driver education classes only encourages intelligent and motivated students to disengage.
What I would hesitate to do is to make students accountable for a large amount of information on assignments, tests, and other formal assessments, since for relatively motivated students the stress of making themselves encyclopedically letter-perfect (at a time when they are also struggling with demanding core classes) only gets in the way of learning.
And besides, from what I'm aware of, the nearest true 'Michigan left™' in Michigan from Wisconsin is just west of Marquette, MI, well outside of Wisconsin. OTOH, there is a similar type intersection (RIRO turns to/from the side road with paired 'U' turns in nearby crossovers) on WI 26 between Watertown and Johnson Creek. It is well signed.
Mike
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 20, 2013, 11:06:30 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2013, 09:31:41 AMI wouldn't go as far as to try to teach someone what driving situations one may find in other areas of the country. The students are new drivers and are very unlikely to be making cross-country trips. If the students are in Wisconsin and area residents are frequently in Michigan, then teaching about Michigan lefts may be relative. But telling them about road features in Texas is useless info that would only confuse them. It's hard enough for them to figure out the pressure needed for the gas and brake pedals; much less informing them of the history of Botts Dots or something they will rarely encounter and could care less about anyway.
There are two reasons I can't agree with this. First, many learners do extended driving out of state--for example, I drove several hundred miles (supervised) in Nebraska on a Kansas instructional permit. (I told my driver education instructor about it, and he advised me that Nebraska might not recognize a Kansas permit as valid, but did not say "Don't do it.") Second, a lowest-common-denominator curriculum in driver education classes only encourages intelligent and motivated students to disengage.
What I would hesitate to do is to make students accountable for a large amount of information on assignments, tests, and other formal assessments, since for relatively motivated students the stress of making themselves encyclopedically letter-perfect (at a time when they are also struggling with demanding core classes) only gets in the way of learning.
It's hardly normal to drive cross country on a road trip with a learners permit.
There are sooo many variables one might run into that it's impossible teach them all. As noted, some states permit u-turns; some don't. In some states it's law to keep to the right or signal between lanes, others it's not. Some states prohibit turning right on a red arrow; some don't. And then when you get into different things like the Jersey Jughandle, Michigan left, etc, even expert drivers aren't aware of those things until they encounter them. Nor could anyone even on these boards keep up on all the law changes in every state. Most people on here have years of driving experience, and have learned a great deal on these boards. It would be impossible to provide that same knowledge to a teenager in just a few months (or less). Thus - go for the general rules of the road; what various signs mean, etc, and the rest they'll just have to figure out on their own, and hope they get it right.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 20, 2013, 12:23:41 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2013, 09:31:41 AM
Stopping (behind the stop line. Not on the cross walk)
sometimes it is impossible to take off safely from behind the stop line - parked cars may occlude one's vision.
in that case, I stop at the stop line, look for pedestrians, then roll forward and stop again where I have the ability to see. yeah, I'm illegally blocking the crosswalk - I'm also avoiding a collision. it's terrible road design, but for some reason it is prevalent.
Actually, that's proper driving. You stopped first and looked for pedestrians. Too many people roll directly into the crosswalk without stopping first.
The use of the signal on a roundabout is essential precisely because when you do it properly, it immediately tells the other driver whether he needs to yield to you. Your right-turn signal means "I'm taking this exit." So if I'm waiting to enter and you're on the roundabout signalling right, it means I can go because you're exiting before you reach where I'm waiting. Your left-turn signal means "I'm staying on the roundabout," so I have to wait. Not using a signal means "I'm going straight," but you're still supposed to signal right when you're preparing to exit because otherwise the driver waiting to enter should assume you're staying on the roundabout.
This diagram from the Highway Code is for a country where you drive on the left, but it shows the principle quite nicely. Notice how the green car signals right at entry and then signals left before he exits. That left-turn signal tells the driver of the red car that he can go ahead without stopping. One major point of a roundabout is that you only stop when you have to do so–basically, it's presumed that you keep moving unless you are required to yield to someone. Surely all of us can agree that it's nicer to keep moving instead of being forced to come to a complete stop every time just in case someone might be coming on the other road, right? But the "keep moving" principle only works well when drivers communicate properly.
(https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/static/hc/hc_rule_185_follow_the_correct_procedure_at_roundabouts.jpg)
This animation translates it for a country where you drive on the right. Notice how the red car's use of the signal tells the purple car's driver that he has to yield to the red car.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F41%2FNonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif%2F300px-NonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif&hash=2cd6457261d5e6a26a289b073f80f61b51216993)
I don't buy the argument about "using two hands while turning" being a reason not to signal. I have no difficulty at all with activating or deactivating a signal at the same time I'm turning the wheel, even while keeping both hands on the wheel, and that's true regardless of which side of the car the steering wheel is on. It's no more difficult than hitting your signal to change lanes.
Regarding stuff in the rest of the country, I don't think I'd try to focus on every last unusual situation. For example, your average driver's ed student in most of the country doesn't need to know that in New York it's illegal for commercial traffic to use "parkways"–but if the driver's ed course is a CDL course, I might feel otherwise. But one thing I do think ought to be mentioned is that traffic laws do vary throughout the country and it's not reasonable just to assume that because you learned something in one place, it applies everywhere. Turning left on red might be one example–it's illegal in a few states and the District of Columbia. This issue came up on another forum I frequent a few years ago when a guy from California said that his sixteen-year-old daughter said it's OK to drive in the left lane and, as "proof," showed him the current California DMV driver's manual that says the left lane is the "fast cruising lane." He wanted to know what we all thought and our unanimous reaction was to reply along the lines of, "Tell her that (a) she has to know that's not the rule everywhere and that in some places the left lane is for passing only, and (b) regardless of what the DMV says, tell her 'fast' is ambiguous and that it's just polite to other drivers to stay to the right except when you're passing someone." I mean, shit, don't we all know people who think 65 mph is "fast" even when that's less than the posted speed limit?
Stuff like curbing your wheels is very important in a place like San Francisco. Here in Virginia it was mentioned in the DMV manual but was never mentioned either in the classroom or during behind-the-wheel and I didn't encounter it either time I took the knowledge test (I had to take it when I was 30 years old due to two moving violations in five years). I'm the only person I know who does curb my wheels. I do it in part because I don't 100% trust the handbrake in my RX-7. But I think teaching that sort of thing is far more useful and more important than teaching things like the "Michigan left" or the "hook turn" that's common in Melbourne, Australia. Last Saturday we were going down a steep hill in Harpers Ferry and I noted that a bunch of parked cars all had their wheels turned precisely the wrong way such that they all would have rolled into the street!
I don't think a Michigan left is so bizarre, and potentially hazardous, that it needs to be explicitly taught anywhere. not even in Michigan.
if one comes up to one, they can intuit how to get to their point B correctly, even when there is only regulatory signage. "hmm, I can't turn left. I'll just go straight, make a U-turn, and turn right."
it is important that drivers have intuition like this - as opposed to needing exact signage to be able to figure out how to get to Point B. they're gonna come upon bizarre sets of one-ways and forbidden turns at some point in their life (i.e. the first time they try to drive in San Francisco) so it's good that they develop the skills as opposed to relying on signage that may not be present.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 20, 2013, 12:47:08 PM
I don't think a Michigan left is so bizarre, and potentially hazardous, that it needs to be explicitly taught anywhere. not even in Michigan.
if one comes up to one, they can intuit how to get to their point B correctly, even when there is only regulatory signage. "hmm, I can't turn left. I'll just go straight, make a U-turn, and turn right."
it is important that drivers have intuition like this - as opposed to needing exact signage to be able to figure out how to get to Point B. they're gonna come upon bizarre sets of one-ways and forbidden turns at some point in their life (i.e. the first time they try to drive in San Francisco) so it's good that they develop the skills as opposed to relying on signage that may not be present.
I think this point also underscores something cpzilliacus said on Page 2 of this thread: driver's ed should teach how to navigate both with and without a sat-nav, and I would emphasize how to navigate without one. So many people seem dependent on the electronic aid and they need to remember that new roads and construction projects often mean that what the sat-nav tells you is not what you'll encounter out on the road.
The old left-side exit from I-495 to I-66 near me has been closed since September 2011 (it re-opened in November 2012 to serve only the HO/T lanes). Nevertheless, I still see people slowing abruptly in the left lane, then swerving wildly across four lanes of traffic to reach the new right-side exit. It's obvious they're relying solely on their sat-navs and paying absolutely no attention to the signs. When the HO/T lanes opened last fall, some of the complaints in the local media said things like, "How are drivers supposed to use these lanes when their GPS maps don't show them?" :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I think there needs to be a distinction between using sat-nav as a map, vs. using it as a turn-by-turn set of instructions.
turn-by-turn is hideously inflexible and should be used only as a suggestion - but there is no way in Hell I can navigate without a map, whether it comes as a sat-nav app, a separate appliance, a printed map, an atlas in book form, or even something I drew up real fast the night before.
some people are savants and can get to the exact house in a given subdivision just based on the fact that "oh, well of course Fir Tree Lane is a left turn off of Tree Fir Avenue, I mean how else would you have named things?" but to me it's all a fucking labyrinth. I can probably get to the nearest major city to your house just by knowing where the highways in the US go ... but you'd still have to tell me the name of that nearest major city.
Sure, but if I gave you a set of directions, I'm sure you could follow them by looking at the signs, right? That's what I found so frustrating about those people's comments: "Without a sat-nav, how will you know where to go?" Uh, you use your damn EYES and read the BGSs! That's why they post those things! (In fairness, the BGSs for two of the exits serving Tysons Corner just have the road names and do not mention any destinations and I think that was a design mistake–but at the same time, the exit near the largest shopping mall ought to be apparent because anyone can see the mall sitting right next to the highway!)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2013, 12:38:59 PMThere are sooo many variables one might run into that it's impossible teach them all. As noted, some states permit u-turns; some don't. In some states it's law to keep to the right or signal between lanes, others it's not. Some states prohibit turning right on a red arrow; some don't.
I am not suggesting that students be held responsible for every fiddly state-by-state difference, especially when the legal landscape changes with every legislative session in every one of the fifty states and even the AAA and commercial mapmakers have difficulty keeping up. However, an awareness that these differences do exist most definitely does have a place in the driver education curriculum.
QuoteAnd then when you get into different things like the Jersey Jughandle, Michigan left, etc, even expert drivers aren't aware of those things until they encounter them.
It still does not take that long to teach them in driver education--I would not expect an unit on unconventional intersection and cross-section designs, such as the Michigan left, CFI, jughandles, 2+1 roads, DDIs, etc. to take more than one class period out of the 90 that are available for a typical one-semester driver education class. The main objective here is not to teach every possible variation (some of which are quite experimental), but to prepare new drivers to encounter these unusual designs in the field by explaining that they exist and identifying the problems they are supposed to solve.
Some of the oddities that are encountered on the highway system need to be seen to be believed, so it isn't really helpful to try to cover them encyclopedically through classroom instruction, even if such a thing could be done within the time constraints of a standard driver education course (which, at a typical urban public high school, is often an exercise in crowd control). But it is important to prime students to continue learning rather than to leave them with the assumption that a very basic curriculum gives them everything they need or might find useful to negotiate the highways safely.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 20, 2013, 12:39:13 PM
Your left-turn signal means "I'm staying on the roundabout," so I have to wait. Not using a signal means "I'm going straight," ...
So if I'm waiting to enter the circle, I could encounter a vehicle already in the circle that may be signaling left or no signal. In both cases I would have to wait since the vehicle is already in the circle
And graphics and animations are fine and all, but the real world is much different - such as a roadway with 3 lanes entering a circle being this empty. (I know it's only an example.)
The reality is, if I'm waiting to enter the circle, all I really care about is if the car already in the circle is exiting or not. If he's exiting, then yes, he should use a right turn signal. Otherwise, no turn signal is necessary because the natural curve of the road will take him to the left. It doesn't matter to me at what point he's exiting...the fact he's in the circle prohibits me from entering. Likewise, if I'm behind someone entering a circle, his left/right turn signal doesn't mean a thing to me at that point. Chances are another vehicle already in the circle will cause me to yield, and thus I won't be behind the vehicle that was in front of me entering the circle anyway.
I would challange anyone that knows these signal choices by heart to follow and be followed by someone, and see if the signals helped or hurt their ability to get thru the circle. Especially when using the left signal.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 20, 2013, 01:14:36 PMthe exit near the largest shopping mall ought to be apparent because anyone can see the mall sitting right next to the highway!)
this could be fallacious. California loves fencing and curbing things off in such a way that it is not easily determined how to actually
get to something within plain sight.
this mall, for example:
http://goo.gl/maps/3MXiR
it is cut effectively in half by the trolley tracks, so you can see a lot of things that - as you will soon find out - you cannot get to in a straight line.
"Navigating through Developer Whimsy" would be a grad-level course.
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2013, 05:11:33 PM
Speaking as a Wichita resident, I would say the two most appropriate suggestions (besides the ones you're already covering such as keeping right except to pass) are these:
1. The proper way to signal turns at a roundabout. I don't think I've seen a single driver use a turn signal at all at a roundabout in Wichita. We have a few in town to practice on.
2. Pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks. People don't seem to get the concept here. Just yesterday, my wife and two boys and I were walking/jogging under the canal route, and came to where the path crosses 9th Street. That crosswalk has white lines across the pavement and big yellow signs. We had already crossed half the road, and were standing in the median about three inches from the other travel lanes–a family of four with a stroller–and not a single driver even slowed down to let us across. I wonder if they would even have stopped if we'd simply walked out into the road. Now, I'm sure the topic of crosswalks is covered, but be very clear about what consitutes a crosswalk, both marked and unmarked.
I hear you on roundabouts. We always cover proper signaling... Delano is a fav of mine to use. Of course, I always get, "Why do I have to signal? They don't!" My answer: "Just because they are an idiot doesn't mean you need to be. It's the law, follow it."
I make my students chant after me every day: "PEDESTRIANS ALWAYS HAVE RIGHT OF WAY, NO MATTER WHEN, WHERE, or WHAT."
ICTRds
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 18, 2013, 08:21:54 PM
Quote from: corco on June 18, 2013, 08:19:13 PM
For sure- at the very, very least throw your right signal on before you leave the roundabout so cars entering know you're about to leave
this has to be institutional behavior before I learn to trust it. people here have their right turn signals on for all kinds of conflicting or spurious reasons, so "he's got his right turn signal on" is insufficient impetus for me to turn in front of a vehicle. he could indeed be turning before intersecting my path. or he could be turning after. or he just likes having his turn signal on because he's got the intelligence of a paper towel.
My lesson: "Never trust another driver completely. As for signals, they might not be too bright in use. So, use your OTHER visual cues... slowing down, general movemenr, etc. Signals can be liars."
ICTRds
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 20, 2013, 01:35:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 20, 2013, 01:14:36 PMthe exit near the largest shopping mall ought to be apparent because anyone can see the mall sitting right next to the highway!)
this could be fallacious. California loves fencing and curbing things off in such a way that it is not easily determined how to actually get to something within plain sight.
....
Very true, and I thought of that after posting but I was away from my PC and so didn't edit it before you replied. I was thinking of a specific example, obviously–Tysons Corner, and in that case the exit is right next to the mall.
But my overall point remains that people need to be able to navigate without putting complete faith in an electronic crutch. I think that's still a valid point.
Of course, some of the helpful navigation principles that initially pop into my mind as things some people don't know, such as the exit tab being positioned to correspond to whether the exit is on the right or the left, aren't necessarily universal either–New York often puts them in the center.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 20, 2013, 01:14:36 PMSure, but if I gave you a set of directions, I'm sure you could follow them by looking at the signs, right?
Actually, as a general rule, that is not true.
* Not just any old set of directions will do: the specific ones have to be chosen to maximize relatability to the guide signing that is actually available. Preferably, the instructions should be short enough to memorize easily, so that the driver can execute maneuvers smoothly and in good time without taking his eyes off the road or his mind off ordinary driving tasks.
* Many signs (including most of the D-series signs for which design guidelines are laid out in
MUTCD Chapter 2D) do not meet minimum engineering criteria to allow drivers to carry out maneuvers safely and legally while relying solely on them. The classic example is street name signs, which cannot be read until you are almost on top of the intersection, well beyond the point where you have to give the legally required 100' minimum advance notice of a turn by signalling.
The sad truth is that a lot of the Chapter 2D signing that is used inside subdivisions is just an alibi and the underlying design assumption is that most drivers will be local and will be relying on familiarity, which is generally based on landmarks rather than signing. Chapter 2D signing works for non-local drivers only to the extent that advance signing is provided on high-speed roads (e.g., junction assemblies well in advance of the actual intersection) and drivers can be relied on to study their route well in advance.
QuoteThat's what I found so frustrating about those people's comments: "Without a sat-nav, how will you know where to go?" Uh, you use your damn EYES and read the BGSs! That's why they post those things! (In fairness, the BGSs for two of the exits serving Tysons Corner just have the road names and do not mention any destinations and I think that was a design mistake–but at the same time, the exit near the largest shopping mall ought to be apparent because anyone can see the mall sitting right next to the highway!)
Traffic density is high in northern Virginia, which squeezes the time available to pay attention to a navigational source like the signing or a GPS. From your description it sounds like, for many drivers, it was a case of a totally incompetent navigational source squeezing out another that was only fractionally better. On a high-speed road, especially one that has heavy traffic with flow that can change rapidly and unpredictably, the typical driver's cone of focus narrows sharply, so the fact that the mall can be seen from the highway is neither here nor there; a driver would be able to spot it only if he had the training to recognize a freeway-junction mall from features (such as parking lot illumination) that fall within his cone of vision on the freeway.
If you are a horny 18-year-old heterosexual male and trying to handle your car safely at 70 MPH in LOS D traffic, you won't even notice the platoon of naked women lying just outside your cone of vision.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 20, 2013, 01:46:58 PM
If you are a horny 18-year-old heterosexual male and trying to handle your car safely at 70 MPH in LOS D traffic, you won't even notice the platoon of naked women lying just outside your cone of vision.
if you are feeling horny, you are more apt to be looking for naked women than wanting to handle your car safely.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 20, 2013, 12:59:23 PM
I think this point also underscores something cpzilliacus said on Page 2 of this thread: driver's ed should teach how to navigate both with and without a sat-nav, and I would emphasize how to navigate without one. So many people seem dependent on the electronic aid and they need to remember that new roads and construction projects often mean that what the sat-nav tells you is not what you'll encounter out on the road.
Thank you.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 20, 2013, 12:59:23 PM
The old left-side exit from I-495 to I-66 near me has been closed since September 2011 (it re-opened in November 2012 to serve only the HO/T lanes). Nevertheless, I still see people slowing abruptly in the left lane, then swerving wildly across four lanes of traffic to reach the new right-side exit. It's obvious they're relying solely on their sat-navs and paying absolutely no attention to the signs. When the HO/T lanes opened last fall, some of the complaints in the local media said things like, "How are drivers supposed to use these lanes when their GPS maps don't show them?" :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I know
exactly what you are talking about and have seen the same behavior - there and also on the S.E. Freeway (I-695) eastbound approaching the 11th Street Bridge in Washington, D.C.
I have seen what you describe, and in my opinion,
that qualifies as reckless driving.
Leave the damn phone and similar devices alone! :pan:
The use of turn signals, especially on highways and in parking lots
Obeying speed limits
The dangers of texting/talking on a cell phone while driving, including checking one's phone (I hate it when people do something stupid on the road because they're using a cell phone), not to use other electronic devices that take the driver's focus off the road
The importance of the driver and all passengers wearing seatbelts
The proper use and securing of child safety seats
Coming to a COMPLETE stop at a stop sign
Applying the brake the moment the driver ahead does to avoid collisions and motion sickness from frequent short stops
Focusing on the road and not turning your head to talk to passengers
How to use cruise/speed control safely
Defensive driving
Stopping for pedestrians (too many people don't let pedestrians cross even when there is enough time to stop safely)
Emergency preparedness (i.e. jump-starting, vehicle fire, escaping a vehicle filling with water, accident, etc.)
How to pass safely
When to use headlights and fog lights, using headlights in rain, snow, hail, and other inclement conditions, also in limited visibility conditions
Proper use of high beams
Basic vehicle maintenance
Advice for buying or leasing a vehicle
A passenger vehicle is not a toy or a racecar
How to maintain a safe following distance
How to be a safe passenger
Not overloading your trunk/cargo area
No sexual activity while driving
and...
What not to do at a stoplight :-D
Quote from: Brandon on June 14, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 14, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: wxfree on June 14, 2013, 04:20:28 PMspeed limits (to the extent allowed by the first duty of driving, which is to avoid causing a hazardous condition).
I'd tell people "go the speed of traffic".
speed limit reform is badly, badly needed in the US. if it is well known, by everybody doing 78, that the enforced speed limit is 80, then why are we not stamping out SPEED LIMIT 80 signs three shifts a day?
don't be that clown doing precisely 65 - even in the right lane! - causing people to have to pass you, thereby being a source of congestion.
Jake, much agreed. I'm sick of self-appointed speed cops on the road who think it is their duty to make everyone obey an absurdly low speed limit on the freeway.
Once I hit the speed limit I have no obligation to move over to the right lane here in Tennessee. :-D
There's no law against "obstructing the flow of traffic" in Tennessee?
Is it really an obstruction if you can just pass on the right (which would be perfectly legal without keep right except to pass, and is often legal but discouraged even with it)?
Quote from: ilvny on June 28, 2013, 05:42:18 PM
The proper use and securing of child safety seats
This is something that would be very good idea to teach in driver's ed. The way I learned the proper installation of a child's seat was to go to a fire station and have a fireman show me; with changing laws and technology, I'm sure what I learned is already out of date.
Quote from: ilvny on June 28, 2013, 05:42:18 PM
Not overloading your trunk/cargo area
Hey, now! I'm quite fond of doing that. For our upcoming trip to México, I've even figured out how to free up extra space in the rear of the minivan by securing luggage along the rear windows with ratchet straps. OK, OK, I guess I can't argue with you, though...
Quote from: ilvny on June 28, 2013, 05:42:18 PM
No sexual activity while driving
Or that might just give high schoolers an idea they hadn't thought of yet.
Quote from: vdeane on June 29, 2013, 09:22:34 PM
Is it really an obstruction if you can just pass on the right (which would be perfectly legal without keep right except to pass, and is often legal but discouraged even with it)?
I'd say there's a difference between obstructing
traffic and obstructing the
flow of traffic. By keeping in the left lane and making traffic pass you on the right, you become an obstruction to the pattern of flow, and also increase the amount of time required to pass–which, in turn, decreases the capacity of the highway. See the illustration below, from www.slowertraffickeepright.com (http://www.slowertraffickeepright.com).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slowertraffickeepright.com%2Fimages%2FHighway.gif&hash=0b64d803ff9ea95697757a56dc4ddf435f2256d6)
But, that seems to be a moot point. The law in Tennessee (Title 55-8-115) only states vaguely that a vehicle "proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic" must keep right. How that is defined is probably anybody's guess.
that should be www.thegreencarshouldspeedup.com
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2013, 02:57:50 PM
There's no law against "obstructing the flow of traffic" in Tennessee?
Once you hit the speed limit no obligation to move exists.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 01, 2013, 09:22:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2013, 02:57:50 PM
There's no law against "obstructing the flow of traffic" in Tennessee?
Once you hit the speed limit no obligation to move exists.
As far as I can tell, that's only true if "proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic" equals "proceeding at less than the legal speed limit". While that might be the case in practice, I'd say the actual law does leave enough of a hole for left lane hogs to still be cited. That is, if the "normal speed of traffic" is instead defined as the speed most people are driving, and most people happen to be speeding, then you could still both be going 2 mph over the speed limit and be obstructing the flow of traffic.
Back on topic, one more thing I would stress in driver's ed is this: If you're stopped on the shoulder of a high-speed road (breakdown, pee break, speeding ticket, etc.), don't enter the travel lane at 4 mph. Accelerate
on the shoulder until you're closer to the speed of traffic before entering the travel lane.
Teach people that when they pull out onto a street, if there is traffic approaching them from behind, especially if that traffic is close, double-especially if that traffic is a truck, the only place their accelerator should be is on the boards.
Quote from: kphoger on July 02, 2013, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 01, 2013, 09:22:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2013, 02:57:50 PM
There's no law against "obstructing the flow of traffic" in Tennessee?
Once you hit the speed limit no obligation to move exists.
As far as I can tell, that's only true if "proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic" equals "proceeding at less than the legal speed limit". While that might be the case in practice, I'd say the actual law does leave enough of a hole for left lane hogs to still be cited. That is, if the "normal speed of traffic" is instead defined as the speed most people are driving, and most people happen to be speeding, then you could still both be going 2 mph over the speed limit and be obstructing the flow of traffic.
Back on topic, one more thing I would stress in driver's ed is this: If you're stopped on the shoulder of a high-speed road (breakdown, pee break, speeding ticket, etc.), don't enter the travel lane at 4 mph. Accelerate on the shoulder until you're closer to the speed of traffic before entering the travel lane.
I read a Tennessee Supreme Court case on the matter. I don't have it in front of me at the time; however, there is precedent for such a cite. The problem is that the court said that the officer must take the speed limit into consideration. The case in point is a little different. A left lane hog was traveling at like 25 in a 35. The officer testified and admitted in court that the real speed limit on the stretch of highway was really like 45 or that most vehicles traveling through this point did like 45. The lower court struck the cite and the dope out. However, the Supreme Court ruled that the vehicle need not impede traffic so that someone was at a stand still or causing one to stop as the lower court ruled but that traffic was merely impeded. However; the court also stated that the officer must take certain factors into consideration. One is the safety of the traffic flow and the other is the speed limit.
Therefore the issue is clear as mud. It does appear that once the speed limit is reached that there is no further obligation. Tough luck for those wanting to travel at a speed greater than the limit. However, the case did take into consideration that the speed of the flow of traffic was greater that the limit. However, in this case the impeder and guy traveling with dope was doing well under the speed limit. :hmmm:
Very old thread but I wanted to offer my two cents on some things that should be taught in Driver's Ed:
- All different types of left turn signals and how they work (green ball, FYA, protected-only, and others)
- HAWKs
- Looking at the traffic two or three cars ahead (especially in cities) instead of just the car ahead of you so you have more time to react
- When to flash your headlights to communicate with other drivers
- Defensive driving; analyzing potential threats before they become threatening
- Looking both ways, even if you have a green light
In my experience, the most useful rule for signaling in a roundabout is to signal right when approaching your exit, and if you're using the first exit (usually the right turn), then have the signal on when entering the roundabout.
The rule about signaling left on approach to the roundabout when intending to take an exit for that direction, is generally useless to me because I focus on whether there is enough space in front of a car in the roundabout for me to enter the roundabout (i.e. I'm mostly looking left and not really straight ahead or to the right).
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 14, 2013, 08:07:15 PM
I can't tell you how mad I get when people tailgate me when I drive the specific school zones. Where I'm at, there's a 25 MPH school zone within a 35 MPH zone along South Russell Street. God, that pisses me off when people do that.
But I love it when they pull out to pass me in an active school zone & get an expensive ticket. Geez, the cop sits in the median with all his emergency lights going & they still speed thru a school zone even when there are schools kids around.
I would show a Crash_it video, and tell them to not do anything he does in the video.
-If someone is tailgating/following too closely, either speed up a bit or let them pass. Never brake check. It's idiotic, and can cause or escalate road rage. This is in contrast to following too closely, which can be annoying, but is not something the driver being followed should try to control. We all know who would be responsible if someone rear-ended you. There's a reason your windshield is bigger than your rearview mirror, and it's not so you can micro-manage the car behind you.
-Don't slow down when passing people, and then speed up when there's clear road ahead. This is extremely frustrating for people behind you, who have to slow down every time you pass someone, but then can't go fast enough to get past you when you're not.
-Learn to change lanes smoothly, and don't be afraid to do it frequently! The concept of keep right except to pass starts to fall apart when you don't use all the gaps in the rightmost lane, even if you do have to get back over to pass a truck in a minute or two. After overtaking someone, I generally ask myself "If I move right, will I be able to stay in the right lane for at least 15-20 seconds at my current speed?" If I think answer is yes, I move over.
Honestly, I'd probably be very conventional, except for one thing.
I'd tell my students, "If you pull out in traffic, and the person you pull out in front of needs to slow down, you merged wrong."
This has happened to me so many times, someone pulls out in front of me and goes 20 in a 45. Someone merges onto I-355 in front of me and I'm stuck behind them going 50. I think we need to teach the next generation of drivers the importance of speed.
Quote from: Hobart on September 04, 2021, 02:01:14 PM
Honestly, I'd probably be very conventional, except for one thing.
I'd tell my students, "If you pull out in traffic, and the person you pull out in front of needs to slow down, you merged wrong."
This has happened to me so many times, someone pulls out in front of me and goes 20 in a 45. Someone merges onto I-355 in front of me and I'm stuck behind them going 50. I think we need to teach the next generation of drivers the importance of speed.
Yup. And that higher speed = bad is not true, and oftentimes is the opposite, especially on high speed facilities. There are many times where driving faster is safer, it all depends on the situation. Driving 55 mph on a 55 mph highway where it's designed for 70 mph and traffic is moving 70-75 mph is more hazardous. Of course, they'll never teach you this because it goes against the law. But maybe it should speak volumes about how poorly outdated the laws are. Oh wait... it doesn't. At least not in a lot of states.
Proper use of shifting to lower gears on steep downhill grades as opposed to riding brakes. Installation of snow chains also seems to be something particularly useful in my part of the world that nobody received instruction on.
Indecisiveness can be just as dangerous as overdecisiveness.
Erroneous discussion removed, let's get this back to the subject line!