I drive through this intersection very often, and it's been the source of some frustration. The major intersection with four-lane arterial (running east-west) is governed by a traffic light and isn't too much of a problem, but many motorists don't know how to cope with yields at the secondary intersection just south.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F12v2JmR&hash=922ca40bad1b419daa00bb11495aea9a936b79bf)
All of the pavement markings are copied exactly as they appear in reality–with the dotted arrows showing implied movements.
Obviously, if I was at A and turning toward D, any vehicles at E would have to yield the right of way and allow me to pass through. I've been in just that position and had motorists at E not yield–clearly, they're wrong.
And since there's no stop sign at C (and also considering the curvature of the curbs and lane lines), it seems the local DOT is treating A to D and C to B as the through movements, with E to B being secondary. So I think it follows that if I was at C and driving to B, anyone at E would again have to yield. I've often been in that scenario, and again, people at E don't yield.
But the situation becomes even more frustrating and confused when traffic is heavier. Very often, cars will stack up at B when the light is red (there's only room for about 2-3 cars there) and will continue to queue around the bend at C and also at E In this case, when the light finally turns green and the cars at B start heading out, who has the right of way? Do C and E alternate? Does E have to wait for all of C to clear out?
In day-to-day operation, the motorists at E usually try to force their way though–regardless of the number of cars queued at C or the fact that those cars may have arrived at the intersection minutes before.
Given the number of different turning movements and the proportion of turning vehicles vs. through traffic on the arterial, and also considering the fact the the two north-south cycles at the traffic light can't be synchronized, I think it might be better to replace both intersections with a large five-node roundabout.
Adding to the problem is the bottom road traffic thinks it is in England. :D :)
Agree that signage is inadequate and that the CD road needs a sign also. Movement A is too close to the signalized intersection so that needs to be free-flow to prevent backups on it. My solution is to put Stop signs for movements C and E. But as shown, I would say A has the right of way along with C for right turns only. Straight or left-turn movements from C should stop to prevent further mayhem.
Legally E has to wait for C. Nice people may alternate. The main employee entrance to Disney (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.429868,-81.576705&spn=0.000761,0.001032&t=h&z=21) is like this - legally people turning right off Reams have right of way over those turning left, but the Disney Niceness Brainwashing makes them alternate.
But what about A to D vs. left from C? Which of these two left turns has right of way?
I would think that the A to D movement is considered the "straight through" movement, thus, A to D has priority over C's left turn.
Do you have a map link so we could see the context?
If the CD road is meant to be the through continuation of the roadway from AB, it really seems like E should have a stop sign and not a yield sign. This would better manage the right of way question, although would result in some minor delay for the E movement when traffic is light.
Quote from: roadfro on June 30, 2013, 12:30:24 PM
Do you have a map link so we could see the context?
Here it is...
http://bit.ly/19NcNKf (http://bit.ly/19NcNKf)
I'm inclined to think that, at the least, E should get a stop instead of a yield.
A & C have the right-of-way, and as to why E has yield and not stop, it's probably because there is less traffic from C.
Right now, I think technically E should wait for C on the green signal. But wether C or E (or both) has a stop sign, it will probably not stop people from pulling into the intersection trying to make the next signal cycle. I don't think there is any physical solution to the problem...
Legally, regardless if you're at a Yield or Stop sign, you have to wait until the intersection is clear. Alternating is a courtesy thing. If someone were to be in an accident, the person that went thru the yield sign would most likely be at fault.
Now, if both C & E had stop signs, then alternating would be the legal thing to do.
As for why E doesn't stop for your A-D movement, I run into the same problem on my commute. Freneau Rd. has a stop sign (and stop bar) here at Califon Rd. (https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.853072,-74.426233&spn=0.000665,0.00127&t=k&z=20) Locals, who I can vouch have a sense of entitlement when driving, just barrel on uphill through the stop bar. I'm on a bicycle, but I don't take shit, so if I see them coming I look them in the eye and cut them off. I then point repeatedly at the sign, and if they have an open window, I yell "STOP SIGN. YOU STOP." (This is how things are in Jersey.)
Quote from: Steve on July 01, 2013, 08:14:05 PM
As for why E doesn't stop for your A-D movement, I run into the same problem on my commute. Freneau Rd. has a stop sign (and stop bar) here at Califon Rd. (https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.853072,-74.426233&spn=0.000665,0.00127&t=k&z=20) Locals, who I can vouch have a sense of entitlement when driving, just barrel on uphill through the stop bar. I'm on a bicycle, but I don't take shit, so if I see them coming I look them in the eye and cut them off. I then point repeatedly at the sign, and if they have an open window, I yell "STOP SIGN. YOU STOP." (This is how things are in Jersey.)
a large, heavy truck - preferably with spikes mounted to the front - needs to be scheduled to go up Califon Rd. regularly, and make the right curve without stopping, as is legal.
a few incidents and Freneau Rd. drivers will learn.
The only thing I can think of that might help either situation would be to put "cat tracks" through the intersection, both white edge line and the centerline. This might delineate the 'through' route more clearly, which could help to mitigate some of the right of way issues seen at these intersections.
Quote from: roadfro on July 01, 2013, 10:47:37 PM
The only thing I can think of that might help either situation would be to put "cat tracks" through the intersection, both white edge line and the centerline. This might delineate the 'through' route more clearly, which could help to mitigate some of the right of way issues seen at these intersections.
Agreed. I'm not sure if they're allowed in this type of situation, but they would certainly be beneficial.