This is a video from the Swedish TV program Traffic Magazine from 1985. The program staff took the ferry from Trelleborg in southern Sweden to Sassnitz in the former East Germany, and the narration is in Swedish, with some interviews with East German citizens and [East German] cops in German.
Of interest even if you don't know either of those languages are scenes from the East German motorway system, lots of Eastern European cars - and unusually, a view of the West Berlin/East Berlin border from the Communist side. At the end of the program, the reporter decides to see what happens if their U.S. Dodge van breaks down - the reporter used an East German call box to summon roadside help, but apparently the East Germans did not have much of a clue about a Dodge.
Trafikmagasinet besöker DDR 1985 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpQxb4NHH4c)
There's an awful lot of communistic type cars in that video. In comparison I could see just one BMW and a handful of Mercs.
"Communistic type cars" seen in this video are the Trabant 601 (equipped with a 2-stroke, 2-cylinder engine, thermosetting plastic body ― now a cultcar in Deutschland) and the Wartburg 353. Those are the two most common ―if not only― models in the 80's DDR.
I made a short road trip into the East right after reunification in 1990, and the roads were even worse than the video showed. The autobahn was cracked and bumpy and even the posted 80 kph wasn't safe. Drove from Fulda to Erfurt and back and didn't see any stores, or any gas stations even while I was in the East.
I'd love to go back today and see how much everything has changed.
Quote from: webfil on July 06, 2013, 11:00:41 PM
"Communistic type cars" seen in this video are the Trabant 601 (equipped with a 2-stroke, 2-cylinder engine, thermosetting plastic body ― now a cultcar in Deutschland) and the Wartburg 353. Those are the two most common ―if not only― models in the 80's DDR.
You forgot the Soviet Russian Ladas (the marked VoPo car seen in the Autobahn rest area was a Lada), a Soviet adaptation of the Fiat 124. The Swedish narrator called the Lada (which was also sold in Sweden) the East German "snob" car, much like a Mercedes (then and now) in wealthier nations.
Quote from: Truvelo on July 06, 2013, 12:03:21 PM
There's an awful lot of communistic type cars in that video. In comparison I could see just one BMW and a handful of Mercs.
Did you notice the Nissan 300Z (I think it was a 2+2) in the parking lot of the restaurant?
I was more interested in the nice looking Beetle cabriolet.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2013, 03:31:05 AM
Quote from: Truvelo on July 06, 2013, 12:03:21 PM
There's an awful lot of communistic type cars in that video. In comparison I could see just one BMW and a handful of Mercs.
Did you notice the Nissan 300Z (I think it was a 2+2) in the parking lot of the restaurant?
Very interesting indeed. Didn't see any Mercs (in the US, Merc = Mercury, former division of Ford), but saw one Mercedes on their autobahn. I did take note of the Nissan in the parking lot.
I noticed a lot of cobblestone streets in the towns they visited. Must be hell on the suspensions.
There was some sort of tower along the freeway as well. Guard tower?
Also, the older buildings in East Berlin were in a noticeable state of neglect with the bullet holes and scarring from WWII still on them.
Last time I was there was 85 . The Russians were still POd about WW2 and liked to leave reminders for the Germans.
Did you notice the short ramps? The only thing I had seen done to the roads was some asphalt over law otherwise it all looked very 30s like the Merrit ParkWay. The Berlin Access autobahn did have a lot of Mercedes and BMWs on it. It was something to see the West German Cars just blow past the Eastern ones.
I was on a tour we did have an E German minder for part of the trip. Most security was at the boarders. The minders were really less for snooping than a lame attempt to put some positive spin on what we saw Also western radio was easily heard. I bought and East German Watch and kept some currency
Quote from: Brandon on July 07, 2013, 08:03:36 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2013, 03:31:05 AM
Quote from: Truvelo on July 06, 2013, 12:03:21 PM
There's an awful lot of communistic type cars in that video. In comparison I could see just one BMW and a handful of Mercs.
Did you notice the Nissan 300Z (I think it was a 2+2) in the parking lot of the restaurant?
Very interesting indeed. Didn't see any Mercs (in the US, Merc = Mercury, former division of Ford), but saw one Mercedes on their autobahn. I did take note of the Nissan in the parking lot.
The narrator described the Mercedes as "unattainable luxury" for nearly all East Germans.
Quote from: Brandon on July 07, 2013, 08:03:36 PM
I noticed a lot of cobblestone streets in the towns they visited. Must be hell on the suspensions.
According to the narrator, the stone in those cobblestone streets was imported to Germany from Sweden.
Quote from: Brandon on July 07, 2013, 08:03:36 PM
There was some sort of tower along the freeway as well. Guard tower?
Spy tower for monitoring the movement of cars from the West. The East German secret police, the Stasi, was pathologically fearful of Westerners (and if the opportunity presented itself, they would attempt to recruit Western citizens to be informants for the Stasi).
Quote from: Brandon on July 07, 2013, 08:03:36 PM
Also, the older buildings in East Berlin were in a noticeable state of neglect with the bullet holes and scarring from WWII still on them.
East Germany was a very poor nation when compared to the Federal Republic of Germany.
Quote from: 3467 on July 07, 2013, 08:15:00 PM
Last time I was there was 85 . The Russians were still POd about WW2 and liked to leave reminders for the Germans.
Though the East German regime may have been the most loyal and subservient of all of the Soviet satellite nations.
Quote from: 3467 on July 07, 2013, 08:15:00 PM
Did you notice the short ramps? The only thing I had seen done to the roads was some asphalt over law otherwise it all looked very 30s like the Merrit ParkWay. The Berlin Access autobahn did have a lot of Mercedes and BMWs on it. It was something to see the West German Cars just blow past the Eastern ones.
According to the video, the 100 k/h speed limit was strictly enforced by the VoPos. The video also said that the Trabants were barely capable of maintaining 100 k/h.
While the Swedish crew did not use one of the official transit routes to get from Sassnitz to East Berlin, they did use a road that was approved for Westerners to drive on - and apparently it was reasonably popular among Western drivers as shortcut cross East German territory.
Quote from: 3467 on July 07, 2013, 08:15:00 PM
I was on a tour we did have an E German minder for part of the trip. Most security was at the boarders. The minders were really less for snooping than a lame attempt to put some positive spin on what we saw Also western radio was easily heard. I bought and East German Watch and kept some currency
I never visited East Germany, but I have relatives (citizens of the U.S., Sweden and Finland) who were there several times and never had any serious problems, even with the border controls.
I believe the border controls were mostly about keeping East Germans in rather than keeping westerners out.
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
I believe the border controls were mostly about keeping East Germans in rather than keeping westerners out.
More specifically, and the Berlin Wall in particular, was designed, built, enhanced and refined to murderously stop massive emigration and skilled labor fleeing to then-West Germany and then-West Berlin.
Put some American cars and franchises in the video from that era and it looks a lot like Oregon with all the trees and freeways. Other than a few autobahn miles in former Greater Germany that was given over to other nations when the war ended, East Germany pretty much had all the freeway in the East Bloc. That was a nice video to watch. Thanks CP!
Rick
Quote from: Brandon on July 07, 2013, 08:03:36 PMI noticed a lot of cobblestone streets in the towns they visited. Must be hell on the suspensions.
That is actually stone sett paving, which uses rectangular blocks laid down in a tight pattern with vertical alignment held within close tolerances. The ride quality, if the paving is maintained well, is roughly comparable to that of a brick street in the USA. True cobblestone paving, which is indeed unforgiving to most suspensions, uses rounded river pebbles.
Stone sett paving was very much the norm in urban Germany between the World Wars, and in fact it was used for some lengths of
Reichsautobahnen. (In his memoirs, Albert Speer implies this was done to get rid of a surplus of stone blocks which resulted from a failed experiment in having concentration camp prisoners produce industrial-sized quantities of building stone.) But after the Germans lost World War II and the Reich was split into the two German republics, it was West Germany which had the money to pave city streets in asphalt beginning in the 1950's. East Germany did not have a chance to catch up until after unification, but nowadays it is hard to find stone sett paving (other than as an accent in areas of special touristic interest, such as the old city center in Dresden) in the former East. When I visited Berlin in summer 2010, I didn't see ordinary stone sett paving anywhere except in Oranienburg (which I passed through en route to Sachsenhausen concentration camp) and possibly in Humboldthain in Berlin itself.
QuoteAlso, the older buildings in East Berlin were in a noticeable state of neglect with the bullet holes and scarring from WWII still on them.
Yup. The situation today is almost a black-and-white reversal. The old West Berlin is no longer the fashionable part of the city, and is sinking gradually into decline. Meanwhile, Berlin Mitte (the traditional city center with the government district and most of the cultural facilities, which went to the Soviets in 1945) has regained its role as the tourist mecca. Most of the buildings on the Museuminsel have been restored or renovated (with photos of them in their war-damaged state arranged into special exhibitions). A lot of old East German kitsch has been either torn down or redeveloped into tourist attractions or foci for
Ostalgia--the Palast der Republik ("Erich's lamp shop") is gone, but the
Telespargel ("TV asparagus") still dominates the skyline, the Weltzeituhr is still in Alexanderplatz, etc. These days you can now tour Erich Mielke's old office at Stasi HQ and marvel at his taste in shit-brown wood paneling.
Quote from: cpzilliacus
Did you notice the Nissan 300Z (I think it was a 2+2) in the parking lot of the restaurant?
Indeed that is a 2+2, and was a very new car at the time (1984 was the first model year for the Z31).
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
I believe the border controls were mostly about keeping East Germans in rather than keeping westerners out.
That would be correct.
Though the East German border controls were also about keeping "subversive" items like uncensored newspapers and magazines out (even though most residents of East Germany were able to get West German TV and radio transmission).
Quote from: xcellntbuy on July 08, 2013, 09:23:54 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
I believe the border controls were mostly about keeping East Germans in rather than keeping westerners out.
More specifically, and the Berlin Wall in particular, was designed, built, enhanced and refined to murderously stop massive emigration and skilled labor fleeing to then-West Germany and then-West Berlin.
Yep. After the East Germans closed the border between their country and West Germany (and before the East Germans built the Berlin Wall with Soviet Russian approval in 1961) East German people wanting to leave the "Socialist Fatherland" were still able to escape by crossing over to West Berlin and then taking a quick airline flight to West German territory, well beyond the reach of the Stasi and the VoPos.
What you all seem to know about a country you have barely seen from inside. It's amazing.
What was the dialog with the police officer about?
Quote from: firefly on July 09, 2013, 07:42:26 PMWhat you all seem to know about a country you have barely seen from inside. It's amazing.
What did we get wrong?
It seems many of us did see it from the inside. I went there 3 times because I had a great aunt who had returned there after the war . To get her to return she got an apartment and lifetime pension.
It was really interesting to hear what has happened to old west Berlin. The old downtown was the area around the bombed out cathedral
Buddy of mine was stationed in Berlin when the people finally overthrew the commies. He was one of the last people to get the WWII Occupation Medal (Berlin was technically still occupied by the Four Powers and people stationed there got the medal, which was not awarded elsewhere after the late 40s).
Anyway, as you will see in the video, the Autobahns in that half of Germany were pretty much left in the state they were in 1945, without the later improvements. You will see short (or no) ramps, narrow (or no) medians. I read somewhere that many rest areas and maintenance sheds were simply abandoned as the Russians came in and left as is for 4 decades (since road maintance was not a priority in the Worker's Paradise). After the fall, they rebuilt the system to modern standards, and found perfectly preserved such places which had been unoccupied since the then, which was of interest to historians. Treasure trove of ordinary day in the life material from that era.
Fascinating stuff! Wonder if they have trouble getting the Dodge van repaired?
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 09, 2013, 09:31:40 PM
What was the dialog with the police officer about?
The first part was about the strict drinking and driving laws in the DDR. The narrator talked over the officer, but essentially the BAC limit was 0.0.
The second part was a question about how much a fine was for going 20 or 30 kph over the speed limit. The officer said, "Don't do that."
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 09, 2013, 09:31:40 PM
What was the dialog with the police officer about?
That drivers on East Germany highways should not consume any alcohol at all. According to that cop, the limit there was 0.00%
Quote from: pctech on July 10, 2013, 08:19:16 AM
Fascinating stuff! Wonder if they have trouble getting the Dodge van repaired?
The Dodge van was not actually broken-down. The reporters from Sweden wanted to see what happened when they used an East Germany call box to summon help.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 09, 2013, 09:38:15 PM
Quote from: firefly on July 09, 2013, 07:42:26 PMWhat you all seem to know about a country you have barely seen from inside. It's amazing.
What did we get wrong?
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 08, 2013, 10:00:43 PM
Stone sett paving was very much the norm in urban Germany between the World Wars, and in fact it was used for some lengths of Reichsautobahnen. (In his memoirs, Albert Speer implies this was done to get rid of a surplus of stone blocks which resulted from a failed experiment in having concentration camp prisoners produce industrial-sized quantities of building stone.) But after the Germans lost World War II and the Reich was split into the two German republics, it was West Germany which had the money to pave city streets in asphalt beginning in the 1950's. East Germany did not have a chance to catch up until after unification, but nowadays it is hard to find stone sett paving (other than as an accent in areas of special touristic interest, such as the old city center in Dresden) in the former East. When I visited Berlin in summer 2010, I didn't see ordinary stone sett paving anywhere except in Oranienburg (which I passed through en route to Sachsenhausen concentration camp) and possibly in Humboldthain in Berlin itself.
You can't have seen much of Berlin and Germany when you haven't even recognised stone sett paved streets. They can still be found all over the country, in east and west, in towns and villages, virtually everywhere off the main roads.
Just a few examples:
Dresden-Neustadt (https://maps.google.de/?ll=51.074079,13.744149&spn=0.002737,0.005343&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=51.074081,13.743132&panoid=ik5loDF4sBTqzC-NoCK-Vg&cbp=12,148.71,,0,7.19), Berlin-Kreuzberg (https://maps.google.de/?ll=52.487386,13.396454&spn=0.005305,0.010686&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.487385,13.39442&panoid=qSvGJRoSJ4RmVBM5oN9uDQ&cbp=12,100.16,,0,8.76), Hamburg-Altona (https://maps.google.de/?ll=53.561792,9.962145&spn=0.002587,0.005343&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.561792,9.962145&panoid=96MHWiPuS3h9EXzB_skn1Q&cbp=12,21,,0,12.56)
Quote from: firefly on July 11, 2013, 11:09:08 AMYou can't have seen much of Berlin and Germany when you haven't even recognised stone sett paved streets. They can still be found all over the country, in east and west, in towns and villages, virtually everywhere off the main roads.
Just a few examples:
Dresden-Neustadt (https://maps.google.de/?ll=51.074079,13.744149&spn=0.002737,0.005343&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=51.074081,13.743132&panoid=ik5loDF4sBTqzC-NoCK-Vg&cbp=12,148.71,,0,7.19), Berlin-Kreuzberg (https://maps.google.de/?ll=52.487386,13.396454&spn=0.005305,0.010686&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.487385,13.39442&panoid=qSvGJRoSJ4RmVBM5oN9uDQ&cbp=12,100.16,,0,8.76), Hamburg-Altona (https://maps.google.de/?ll=53.561792,9.962145&spn=0.002587,0.005343&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.561792,9.962145&panoid=96MHWiPuS3h9EXzB_skn1Q&cbp=12,21,,0,12.56)
Many thanks for the extracts, which have allowed me to broaden my horizons.
And fair cop: I admit it is wrong for me to say stone sett paving is "hard to find" and thereby imply that it is rare in any absolute sense. But actually the examples you furnish substantiate my point in an indirect way, since none of those locations would receive much, if any, traffic from casual visitors. The one that is closest to where I have been is in Dresden-Neustadt, and is a five-minute walk from the Neustadt railway station (which I used often while I was in Dresden) and a ten-minute walk from where I was staying (in Erna-Berger-Strasse). I could have stumbled on it easily enough if I had walked past the station and under the railway line, but there was never any reason for me to do so. That neighborhood is not on the way to any places of touristic interest (which, in Dresden, are concentrated in the Altstadt to the south), and I was not in town long enough to engage in urban exploration.
Similarly, the Kreuzberg example is quite far south of the principal tourist attraction in that borough, the Jewish Museum near Hallesches Tor, and although it is in a residential estate not far north of Tempelhof Airport (which I have personally never visited but would like to since it is of architectural interest), it is not on any logical route a tourist would take to the airport from a central Berlin location. Just now I dropped the Google Maps pin man in a few random locations in Kreuzberg (and possibly Tempelhof-Schöneberg since Google Maps does not render Berlin borough boundaries) and in each case the streets were paved in asphalt or Portland cement concrete.
The Hamburg StreetView extract shows a residential neighborhood and, panning around, I see a building heavily covered in graffiti. I think it is a squat. Again, a tourist would be unlikely to end up there unless he or she were using something like Airbnb to couch-surf and had a very marked countercultural sensibility.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2013, 08:37:03 PM
East Germany was a very poor nation when compared to the Federal Republic of Germany.
Which says more about West Germany than the East. West Germany made virtually every country look poor.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 11, 2013, 01:40:09 PM
Similarly, the Kreuzberg example is quite far south of the principal tourist attraction in that borough, the Jewish Museum near Hallesches Tor, and although it is in a residential estate not far north of Tempelhof Airport (which I have personally never visited but would like to since it is of architectural interest), it is not on any logical route a tourist would take to the airport from a central Berlin location. Just now I dropped the Google Maps pin man in a few random locations in Kreuzberg (and possibly Tempelhof-Schöneberg since Google Maps does not render Berlin borough boundaries) and in each case the streets were paved in asphalt or Portland cement concrete.
I only know these sett paved streets in Kreuzberg because they are just around the corner of Columbiahalle, a well-known concert venue. I was looking there for parking space more than once. So this area has a certain touristic value as well.
Quote from: firefly on July 13, 2013, 08:52:28 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2013, 08:37:03 PM
East Germany was a very poor nation when compared to the Federal Republic of Germany.
Which says more about West Germany than the East. West Germany made virtually every country look poor.
It made every Eastern Bloc country look very poor. France, Sweden, The Netherlands, Belgium, the UK also made the Eastern Bloc look poor. East Germany was one of the worse off of the Eastern Bloc countries, from what I understand, due to the early brain drain to the west and the treatment they received from the USSR (as retribution for WWII).
Quote from: Brandon on July 14, 2013, 07:38:42 AMEast Germany was one of the worse off of the Eastern Bloc countries, from what I understand, due to the early brain drain to the west and the treatment they received from the USSR (as retribution for WWII).
Actually it was considerably richer than the other USSR vassal states (Poland, Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia).
In 1990, average (mean) East German persons had about two thirds of the wealth of average (mean) West German persons. That makes the difference similar to that of Poland to Germany today. Poland isn't that poor, but isn't that rich either.
Quote from: english si on July 14, 2013, 08:35:39 AM
Quote from: Brandon on July 14, 2013, 07:38:42 AMEast Germany was one of the worse off of the Eastern Bloc countries, from what I understand, due to the early brain drain to the west and the treatment they received from the USSR (as retribution for WWII).
Actually it was considerably richer than the other USSR vassal states (Poland, Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia).
In 1990, average (mean) East German persons had about two thirds of the wealth of average (mean) West German persons. That makes the difference similar to that of Poland to Germany today. Poland isn't that poor, but isn't that rich either.
Let's put it this way - most of the former Soviet empire satellite states of Eastern Europe are much better off without being under the yoke of Stalinism.
I visited Estonia (which had been forcibly and formally annexed by the Soviet Union after World War II) about 5 or 6 years after they broke away from the Soviet Union, and the recovery there was pretty impressive.
Oh yes.
And Estonia is still rather poor by Western European standards, which just shows how crappy life in the outlying republics of the USSR was (and still is in rather a lot of them).
But the East Germans did much better than most under communism.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 08, 2013, 10:00:43 PM
nowadays it is hard to find stone sett paving (other than as an accent in areas of special touristic interest, such as the old city center in Dresden) in the former East.
is this stone sett?
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/blog/photos/121158.jpg)
exit ramp from Poland highway 18, between Legnica and Cottbus. photo taken November, 2011. from what I can tell, this is original 1943 Reichsautobahn construction.
true, this is not former East Germany proper...
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 15, 2013, 06:08:48 PMis this stone sett?
[Photo snipped]
Yup, it is.
Quoteexit ramp from Poland highway 18, between Legnica and Cottbus. photo taken November, 2011. from what I can tell, this is original 1943 Reichsautobahn construction.
Are you sure about 1943? There was very little construction activity after 1942. This length of
Reichsautobahn would not have been extraterritorial since Legnica (German name: Liegnitz) was within the borders of the Reich as they existed in 1933.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 15, 2013, 07:59:28 PM
Are you sure about 1943? There was very little construction activity after 1942.
no, I'm not. I just pegged 1943 as probably the latest year it could have been built.
it's extraterritorial to the 1949-1990 state called East Germany, thus it isn't technically
stone sett found in the former East, but I figured "close enough"!
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 15, 2013, 06:08:48 PM
true, this is not former East Germany proper...
It actually is in former East Germany.
Quote from: firefly on July 16, 2013, 10:48:26 AMIt actually is in former East Germany.
This length of
Reichsautobahn was entirely on German soil when it was built (probably before the start of World War II), yes, but the photo location is in Poland now--the direction signs visible in the distance are done to Polish standards. (In 1945 the German border in this area was moved westward to the Oder-Neisse line and Silesia was transferred to Poland.)
A quick reconnaissance of the available Google StreetView imagery for this length of
Reichsautobahn in Poland shows that at least one carriageway still has the original 1930's half cross-section and Portland cement concrete pavement, except in isolated places where blowouts and other pavement failures have been repaired with asphaltic concrete. In most places the other carriageway appears to have been reconstructed to the more modern half cross-section that is used for Polish motorways. This location is typical:
A18 near Dolnoslaskie, Poland (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cottbus,+Germany&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cottbus,+Brandenburg,+Germany&ll=51.373441,15.560919&spn=0.027165,0.077162&t=m&z=14&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=51.373441,15.560919&panoid=sPFXlsJil_fynq2I4EH88g&cbp=12,137.34,,0,17.89)
However, the roadside safety hardware, glare screens (where used), and fencing are all modern. The
Reichsautobahnen were originally unfenced. To Americans now, and even back in the 1930's and 1940's when the US was pioneering its own freeways, this seems like sheer lunacy, but at the time the Germans thought it would be sufficient to apply a legal duty to pastoralists to ensure that their animals never wandered onto the
Autobahn. I am not sure when the fencing was erected (presumably by the Polish highway authorities), but in some locations it is so close to the traveled way that I suspect at least some of it encroaches on the clear zone.
Stone sett paving was fairly extensively used on ramps at
Autobahn service interchanges but its use as a paving material for the mainline was much less common. I have copies of photographs of some examples which the British took as part of reconnaissance tours in occupied Germany after the war, but I don't know if any of the involved lengths still retain that pavement type. Some of the locations the British photographed, such as stone setts warped around bridge abutments that had experienced differential settlement, would have been reconstructed out of existence in very short order.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 16, 2013, 11:30:05 AM
A quick reconnaissance of the available Google StreetView imagery for this length of Reichsautobahn in Poland shows that at least one carriageway still has the original 1930's half cross-section and Portland cement concrete pavement, except in isolated places where blowouts and other pavement failures have been repaired with asphaltic concrete. In most places the other carriageway appears to have been reconstructed to the more modern half cross-section that is used for Polish motorways.
you are correct. more photos can be found here:
https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2012/06/07/the-last-reichsautobahn/
in that post, I listed 1938 as the year of construction. I don't remember where I got that figure (Chris? Justin Cozart?) but it seems more plausible than 1943, when the German planners had more immediate things to worry about.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 16, 2013, 01:18:39 PMin that post, I listed 1938 as the year of construction. I don't remember where I got that figure (Chris? Justin Cozart?) but it seems more plausible than 1943, when the German planners had more immediate things to worry about.
It might have opened as early as 1937. I have a photograph of a New Year's greeting card sent out by Fritz Todt (who was then General Inspector for German Roads) in late 1936, and it has a map showing that the Cottbus-Breslau length of the Berlin-Breslau
Reichsautobahn was to be open by the end of 1937. A map attached to the report (dated January 1938) of the German Roads Delegation, a British body which travelled to Germany in the autumn of 1937 to observe the
Autobahnen, shows as already open most of the length that is currently in Poland. An ADAC map showing the
Autobahn network as of April 30, 1938 shows the length from Ilowa (Halbau) east to Wroclaw (Breslau) already open to traffic.
The failed Soviet invasion didn't altogether stop the German planners' pipe dreams--around 1943, British intelligence heard of a tentative plan to build a Maltese cross stack (similar to the then planned Four Level Interchange in Los Angeles) in occupied Czechoslovakia. This would have been part of a planned
Autobahn route between Vienna and Wroclaw which has not yet been developed in its entirety (there are missing lengths in both Poland and the Czech Republic).
when was the four-level interchange first designed? it seems like a fairly intuitive next step after the cloverleaf for a full grade separation. I'm guessing it was on someone's drawing board by the 20s.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 16, 2013, 02:22:19 PMwhen was the four-level interchange first designed? it seems like a fairly intuitive next step after the cloverleaf for a full grade separation. I'm guessing it was on someone's drawing board by the 20s.
That is kind of hard to say, because the Maltese cross stack isn't really the intuitive next step--rather, that is the fully directional interchange, for which probably the most classic example is I-94/M-10 in Detroit. In order to know that a Maltese cross stack is better than a fully directional interchange, you need a sophisticated enough understanding of traffic operations to appreciate why left exits and entrances are bad. The District 7 engineers responsible for the Four Level were aware that it was better to have traffic leave and join from the right, and said so in a 1944
CHPW article, but that intuition took a long time to percolate through the traffic engineering profession. I-94/M-10 was built in the mid-1950's and many states (e.g., Wisconsin) showed a marked preference for directional designs in system interchanges. (The original Marquette Interchange in Milwaukee, completed around 1965, was a directional design; its replacement is a stack/turban hybrid.)
The cloverleaf was patented in 1916, but was probably around long before that. Hermann Uhlfelder (one of the prime movers behind HAFRABA) published a design for a directional interchange around 1931. The earliest references to a Maltese cross stack I have found are in British and American documentation, both from the 1940's:
CHPW articles dealing with the planning of the Four Level (probably the oldest, written by S.V. Cortelyou, appeared in the May-June 1944 issue of
CHPW), British intelligence's 1943 description of the planned "road star" in Czechoslovakia, and a design (suggested by a member of the public) for motorway-to-motorway interchanges in one of the British Ministry of Transport's highway design files. The last two are not accompanied by plans and are poorly attested, so I can't exclude the possibility that other types of interchanges are being talked about that operate similarly to Maltese cross stacks, such as turbans or stack/turban hybrids.
good point on the fully-directional. I don't recall any in California offhand. the only left freeway-to-freeway connections I can remember offhand are I-5/CA-710 and CA-15/CA-94, but those are not left exit for all movements.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 16, 2013, 03:03:09 PMa stack/turban hybrid
I hate to nag on typos, but I must point this one out, as it is the first one I have ever seen you make on the forum, ever, while referencing some fairly obscure terms in a number of languages. it brings to an end a DiMaggio-esque achievement.
you meant
turbine :sombrero:
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 16, 2013, 03:10:30 PM
good point on the fully-directional. I don't recall any in California offhand. the only left freeway-to-freeway connections I can remember offhand are I-5/CA-710 and CA-15/CA-94, but those are not left exit for all movements.
East end of the Bay Bridge, especially in the old configuration.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foaklandwiki.org%2Fmacarthur%2520maze%2F_files%2FTraffic%2520Distribution%2520Structure%25201937.jpg&hash=0e75e6bff32af00d99e9fa50f01f59d7c05f4783)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 16, 2013, 03:10:30 PM
I hate to nag on typos, but I must point this one out, as it is the first one I have ever seen you make on the forum, ever, while referencing some fairly obscure terms in a number of languages. it brings to an end a DiMaggio-esque achievement.
you meant turbine :sombrero:
this again...
Apparently turban is a valid alternate spelling for the interchange. I see it as a flow diagram for a turbine, but it's also a turban with the fabric wrapped around.
Quote from: NE2 on July 16, 2013, 03:24:33 PM
Apparently turban is a valid alternate spelling for the interchange. I see it as a flow diagram for a turbine, but it's also a turban with the fabric wrapped around.
I never knew that.
I quickly googled "turban interchange" and it immediately asked if I meant "turbine interchange". the only instance it came up with of "turban interchange" was ... you guessed it, JNW, several years ago on this very forum.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7262.msg162935#msg162935
Yeah, it's a load of shite.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 16, 2013, 03:28:57 PMQuote from: NE2 on July 16, 2013, 03:24:33 PMApparently turban is a valid alternate spelling for the interchange. I see it as a flow diagram for a turbine, but it's also a turban with the fabric wrapped around.
I never knew that.
I quickly googled "turban interchange" and it immediately asked if I meant "turbine interchange". the only instance it came up with of "turban interchange" was ... you guessed it, JNW, several years ago on this very forum.
I tried this just now with the same result. However, expanding the search phrase to {turban interchange highway design} turns up usage examples which did not originate with me, such as this Wyoming DOT report on possible improvements to the I-25/I-80 interchange:
http://www.dot.state.wy.us/files/live/sites/wydot/files/shared/Public%20Affairs/research%20reports/I-25_I-80_Interchange_Report_070108.pdf
Edit:
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 16, 2013, 03:10:30 PMI hate to nag on typos, but I must point this one out, as it is the first one I have ever seen you make on the forum, ever, while referencing some fairly obscure terms in a number of languages. it brings to an end a DiMaggio-esque achievement.
Your words are kind, and I thank you for the compliment, but actually I have made numerous typos in the past, both here and in other forums. Even if I don't get terminology wrong--which does happen--I compose most of my posts using a wireless keyboard, so I drop characters from time to time and don't always catch them in proofreading.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 16, 2013, 06:12:17 PMI compose most of my posts using a wireless keyboard, so I drop characters from time to time and don't always catch them in proofreading.
now THAT would drive me batty.
one of my biggest complaints about the iPhone is that characters typed too quickly in succession end up dropped. the phone even makes the "click" noise acknowledging the keystroke (if the volume is turned to an appropriately vocal setting), but the keypress is flat out dropped sometime between there and ending up on screen.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 16, 2013, 11:30:05 AM
A quick reconnaissance of the available Google StreetView imagery for this length of Reichsautobahn in Poland shows that at least one carriageway still has the original 1930's half cross-section and Portland cement concrete pavement, except in isolated places where blowouts and other pavement failures have been repaired with asphaltic concrete. In most places the other carriageway appears to have been reconstructed to the more modern half cross-section that is used for Polish motorways. This location is typical:
A18 near Dolnoslaskie, Poland (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cottbus,+Germany&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cottbus,+Brandenburg,+Germany&ll=51.373441,15.560919&spn=0.027165,0.077162&t=m&z=14&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=51.373441,15.560919&panoid=sPFXlsJil_fynq2I4EH88g&cbp=12,137.34,,0,17.89)
This looks - a lot - like the original Portland cement pavement of federal part of the Baltimore Washington Parkway. It's still there, just covered by several layers of asphalt pavement now, but was exposed as part of the rehabilitation job of the late 1980's and well into the 1990's.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 16, 2013, 11:30:05 AM
To Americans now, and even back in the 1930's and 1940's when the US was pioneering its own freeways, this seems like sheer lunacy, but at the time the Germans thought it would be sufficient to apply a legal duty to pastoralists to ensure that their animals never wandered onto the Autobahn. I am not sure when the fencing was erected (presumably by the Polish highway authorities), but in some locations it is so close to the traveled way that I suspect at least some of it encroaches on the clear zone.
Sweden will sometimes post signs that warn
VILTSTÃ,,NGSEL UPPHÖR (wildlife barrier ends) along its highways and even motorways.
Example:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmw2.google.com%2Fmw-panoramio%2Fphotos%2Fmedium%2F14342787.jpg&hash=682749e09bbbc4b7a90934838192b4dfda6a25f6)
Not a good thing to strike a moose, though there are other critters in the Nordic nations for motorists to be concerned about avoiding on the highways, including deer, caribou and wild pigs.
All discussion about East Germany vs. east Germany has been removed. East Germany is a political entity, and this photo was clearly taken in Poland, formerly part of the eastern region of Germany, and not East Germany. Any further attempt to dispute this fact will lead to admin sanctions. Now, continue on topic.
God damn Stasi.
Quote from: NE2 on July 22, 2013, 03:20:44 PM
God damn Stasi.
They caused so much pain for such third-rate apparatchiks.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 09, 2013, 09:38:15 PM
Quote from: firefly on July 09, 2013, 07:42:26 PMWhat you all seem to know about a country you have barely seen from inside. It's amazing.
What did we get wrong?
a perhaps questionable thread resurrection, but I for one would really like to know the answer to this question. it appears that - apart from a brief discussion on stone sett - this discussion didn't go anywhere.
as someone who spent his first 5 years behind the Iron Curtain (born in Hungary, visited several of the others) I have a particular interest in this topic.