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Regional Boards => Mid-Atlantic => Topic started by: dgolub on September 06, 2016, 08:52:47 AM

Title: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: dgolub on September 06, 2016, 08:52:47 AM
Is it VA 624, SR 624, or SSR 624?  I've seen all three of them in various places.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on September 06, 2016, 09:25:20 AM
I don't think there's any firm rule about it. VDOT doesn't typically distinguish between them when referring to them in most places ("Route X") unless it's talking about upgrading a route from secondary to primary. A lot of people use "VA X" for primary routes and "SR X" for secondary routes since Mapmikey and Froggie use those abbreviations on the Virginia Highways Project.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Rothman on September 06, 2016, 11:54:47 AM
Butbutbut, SR = State Route.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: epzik8 on September 06, 2016, 12:06:51 PM
I thought they were "county routes"?
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 06, 2016, 12:37:19 PM
I thought they were "county routes"?

No.  Virginia never refers to its secondary system as "county" routes.  I have seen them coded that way in the Census Bureau TIGER files (which probably made its way into some GPS units), but that is not really correct.

Note that West Virginia does refer to (what Virginia would call) secondary routes as "county" routes.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: VTGoose on September 06, 2016, 12:54:06 PM
Is it VA 624, SR 624, or SSR 624?  I've seen all three of them in various places.

VDOT in various places refers to all roads as a "route" whether it is a U.S. highway, a Virginia primary highway, or a secondary road. In other places, there is a distinction between "VA Route 16" and "Route 738" although it isn't consistent.

VDOT does designate primary and secondary based on the route number:

"Routes within the Primary System are numbered from 1 through 599
statewide and roads within the Secondary System are numbered 600 and
above countywide. There is no relationship between route numbers and the
direction of the routes.

An exception is Interstate Route Number 664, this number would normally
designate a State Secondary Route; however, it is assigned to an Interstate
Route." (Virginia Route Index, http://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/route-index-07012003.pdf)

The AP Style Manual addresses how to identify highways generically, without any specific reference to Virginia. There are some media outlets that will refer to "Va. secondary 735" in a story to give the location of a traffic accident or other incident.

Typically when I am writing directions, I'll use VA 114 for a primary highway and Va. 685 for a secondary route.

Bruce in Blacksburg
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: VTGoose on September 06, 2016, 01:02:55 PM
I thought they were "county routes"?

No.  Virginia never refers to its secondary system as "county" routes.  I have seen them coded that way in the Census Bureau TIGER files (which probably made its way into some GPS units), but that is not really correct.

That is a quirk in reporting that Virginia has to work around. What the Feds refer to as "County highway" in its inventory (CAD?) programs doesn't uniformly cover Virginia, which uses the designation to refer to secondary routes.

FEDERAL ITEM 5B - ROUTE SIGNING PREFIX - X (1)
INVENTORY – ROADS
KIND-HWY
TABLE - ROADWAY
In the second position, identify the route signing prefix for the inventory route using one of the following
codes:
Code Description

1 Interstate highway
2 U.S. numbered highway
3 State highway
4 County highway    Virginia Note: This code shall be used for secondary routes
in any county, including the counties of Arlington and Henrico.
5 City Street
6 Federal lands roads
7 State lands roads
8 Other (include toll roads not otherwise indicated or identified above)


(from "Updates to the Coding Guide" http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/Coding_Manual.pdf)

Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Thing 342 on September 06, 2016, 01:43:37 PM
For maximum clarity, I generally use "VA-XXX" for primary routes and "SR-XXX" (occasionally VA SR-XXX for when dealing with state lines) for secondaries. However, all routes numbered 600 and above (with the above mentioned exceptions of 664, 785, and 895), are secondary routes, so the designation doesn't really matter as much unless talking with people outside the loop.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Mapmikey on September 06, 2016, 01:52:08 PM
We refer to them as SR routes because they are officially "secondary " routes.

In VDOT documents they often have described all routes as "route" X.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 06, 2016, 10:37:25 PM
We refer to them as SR routes because they are officially "secondary " routes.

In VDOT documents they often have described all routes as "route" X.

It is also generally  accepted that anything with a route number greater than or equal to 600 is always a secondary, with the exception of the three above (and I believe I-664 is entirely within municipal boundaries, where there normally are no secondary route numbers to be found).
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Thing 342 on September 07, 2016, 12:25:02 AM
We refer to them as SR routes because they are officially "secondary " routes.

In VDOT documents they often have described all routes as "route" X.

It is also generally  accepted that anything with a route number greater than or equal to 600 is always a secondary, with the exception of the three above (and I believe I-664 is entirely within municipal boundaries, where there normally are no secondary route numbers to be found).
There are some secondaries signed on BGS along I-664 in the Southside, despite the fact they haven't formally existed for decades and aren't signed anywhere else.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 07, 2016, 10:05:11 AM
There are some secondaries signed on BGS along I-664 in the Southside, despite the fact they haven't formally existed for decades and aren't signed anywhere else.

Suffolk, right?
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: froggie on September 07, 2016, 10:23:55 AM
Nope.  The interchanges in question are all in Chesapeake, though one is very close to the Chesapeake/Suffolk line.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Doctor Whom on September 09, 2016, 05:28:01 PM
In some parts of the state, I've seen signage referring to both as "Rte." In other parts of the state, I've seen signage using "SR" to refer to both, plus US routes.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 74/171FAN on September 09, 2016, 08:59:45 PM
In some parts of the state, I've seen signage referring to both as "Rte." In other parts of the state, I've seen signage using "SR" to refer to both, plus US routes.

I believe most of the overpasses/underpasses uses the "Rte." signage.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: dfnva on September 10, 2016, 08:59:39 AM
Prince William County has no standard way of denoting these designations when route numbers are included on its street signs.

(https://s21.postimg.org/b2l8sac53/VA_SR_a.jpg)

Even U.S. routes are sometimes listed as "SR."

(https://s21.postimg.org/70l34beh3/VA_SR.jpg)

Interestingly, in Pennsylvania's version of the little white sign, every route, whether state primary or secondary, or Federal, is listed as "SR X" ....

(https://s17.postimg.org/j1l19p4tb/PA_SR.jpg)

However, I do remember old Text-only BGS's in Pennsylvania referring to PA primary routes as PA-x.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on September 10, 2016, 12:13:58 PM
Prince William County has no standard way of denoting these designations when route numbers are included on its street signs.

(https://s21.postimg.org/b2l8sac53/VA_SR_a.jpg)

Even U.S. routes are sometimes listed as "SR."

(https://s21.postimg.org/70l34beh3/VA_SR.jpg)

Chesterfield, Powhatan, and Albemarle Counties do the same thing on their street signs - those signs either give the current block number of the street, or its route number in the form of "SR X" (even for primary and U.S. routes).
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Takumi on September 10, 2016, 04:51:03 PM
^ As does York.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: dvferyance on October 12, 2016, 10:49:06 AM
I thought they were "county routes"?
For 2 counties that will actually be correct. Henrico and one other county not sure which one are the 2 that maintain them instead of VDOT. This actually was what was intended until the Byrd act during the great depression that allowed counties to hand the routes over to the state. I have often referred to them as county routes myself even if the secondary routes are maintained by the state they are still done on a county by county basis same thing with Missouri's lettered routes. It's not like the primary routes were the route number only exist once in the whole state.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 12, 2016, 01:03:03 PM
I thought they were "county routes"?
For 2 counties that will actually be correct. Henrico and one other county not sure which one are the 2 that maintain them instead of VDOT.

Arlington County across the  Potomac River from Washington, D.C., which considers itself a county but has many attributes that resemble a city, maintains its own  "secondary" routes, none of which are rural, and nearly all of them resemble urban or suburban streets.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 12, 2016, 01:53:25 PM
I thought they were "county routes"?
For 2 counties that will actually be correct. Henrico and one other county not sure which one are the 2 that maintain them instead of VDOT.

Arlington County across the  Potomac River from Washington, D.C., which considers itself a county but has many attributes that resemble a city, maintains its own  "secondary" routes, none of which are rural, and nearly all of them resemble urban or suburban streets.

Considers?

Arlington County is a county because Virginia law says it is. It is a county with urban and suburban features. I don't know where you come up with this "consideration" stuff.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on October 12, 2016, 03:42:25 PM
Arlington County *is* a county, but for all intents and purposes it acts like (and probably should be) a city. The county's street grid resembles that of a city and it's the smallest county in the state.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 12, 2016, 05:19:04 PM
Arlington County *is* a county, but for all intents and purposes it acts like (and probably should be) a city. The county's street grid resembles that of a city and it's the smallest county in the state.

So in other words it is a county with urban features. In other words, a county.

There are plenty of Independent Cities in Virginia that are tiny or not urban (like Chesapeake), but that doesn't make them counties for "all intents and purposes".

The distinction is important too. Outside of maintainging its own roads, Arlington has more in common with Tazewell County than Alexandria when it comes to self-rule (e.g. County Board vs mayor, taxation and other powers go through Richmond, etc).
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 13, 2016, 07:30:09 AM
The legal distinction between a county and a city is a Very Big Deal in Virginia. Aside from the issues noted above, a city does not enjoy the sovereign immunity a county does. The topic is important enough that the bar review classes devote an entire day to it.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on October 13, 2016, 10:22:00 AM
The legal distinction between a county and a city is a Very Big Deal in Virginia. Aside from the issues noted above, a city does not enjoy the sovereign immunity a county does. The topic is important enough that the bar review classes devote an entire day to it.

That would probably explain why Arlington County hasn't made any effort to become a city.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 13, 2016, 10:50:46 AM
The legal distinction between a county and a city is a Very Big Deal in Virginia. Aside from the issues noted above, a city does not enjoy the sovereign immunity a county does. The topic is important enough that the bar review classes devote an entire day to it.

That would probably explain why Arlington County hasn't made any effort to become a city.

Unlikely...Arlington is as rich as they come. Bigger issue is the political pain...Richmond would want something in return for "giving up" Arlington without much gain.

I always enjoy comparing Arlington and Alexandria since they're both small polities in the same metropolitan area, but one being a county and the other a city. Both certainly have their own distinct cultures and ways of doing business.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: froggie on October 13, 2016, 10:51:56 AM
I find that curious considering that a city is required to provide all the same services that a county does.

I was also under the impression that cities had more local control than a county does.  It certainly holds true for transportation and local streets.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 13, 2016, 10:58:59 AM
Taxation, I think as well to a certain degree.

The concept I believe stems from the idea that cities were founded by their own charters, wereas counties were created out of unincorporated by the power of the state government.

This arrangement probably made sense when the majority of Virginia's population lived in rural areas, but I don't see any practical value of giving Arlington a political status more along the lines of Tazewell County than Alexandria City.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Mapmikey on October 13, 2016, 01:08:32 PM
A good summary of what cities, counties, and towns can/can't do (as of 2009) can be found here:

http://www.dhcd.virginia.gov/CommissiononLocalGovernment/PDFs/Function.pdf
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 13, 2016, 07:28:23 PM
That's a pretty good and accurate summary. The key thing, for purposes of talking about Arlington, is the moratorium on creating any new cities (although existing cities can still revert to town status, as Clifton Forge did a few years ago). Independent cities are created by the General Assembly and—grossly oversimplifying here—as a general matter they have only the powers granted to them in their charters.

The "local control" isn't always the blessing it may sound like because with it goes a lot of local responsibility where the Commonwealth doesn't provide funding for various things for which the counties do receive funding. That's one reason why the independent cities are usually allowed the power to impose certain taxes the counties aren't.

Local government law in Virginia is a really complex topic that isn't easy to distill in a forum like this one. The sovereign immunity thing is a bigger deal than "AlexandriaVA" suggests because sovereign immunity (immunity from suit) is taken extremely seriously under Virginia law and it means Arlington is not subject to lawsuits for some things that Alexandria might be. That's not a trivial matter.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: VTGoose on October 14, 2016, 12:37:44 PM
Local government law in Virginia is a really complex topic that isn't easy to distill in a forum like this one. The sovereign immunity thing is a bigger deal than "AlexandriaVA" suggests because sovereign immunity (immunity from suit) is taken extremely seriously under Virginia law and it means Arlington is not subject to lawsuits for some things that Alexandria might be. That's not a trivial matter.

Virginia local government is an odd and sometimes bizarre construct that seems to be unique to the Commonwealth. Sovereign immunity isn't just for counties, as someone in Roanoke found out when a Roanoke City garbage truck damaged his car (Roanoke Times article here : http://goo.gl/r0Jkf2 (http://goo.gl/r0Jkf2)). Virginia operates under the Dillon Rule, which says local governments can only do those things approved by the General Assembly, which limits doing things like adding a lodging tax, cigarette tax, or the like without action from Richmond (which likes to keep tight reins on taxation for itself). Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk). One of the current problems is that cities must provide the things that counties provide -- schools, courts, and police. Due to declining state support for education, some cities have thrown in the towel and reverted back to town status, like Bedford.

Bruce in Blacksburg 
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: froggie on October 14, 2016, 01:18:22 PM
Quote
Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond Princess Anne County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk Virginia Beach).

FTFY.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 14, 2016, 01:47:42 PM
Quote
Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond Princess Anne County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk Virginia Beach).

FTFY.


As I remember, it was a fear of annexation by the "older" cities on the south side of Hampton Roads, Portsmouth and Norfolk (in  part because of the school system integration that would come with same) that led to Princess Anne County effectively being annexed in its entirety by Virginia Beach; Norfolk County and the City of South Norfolk merging and becoming City of Chesapeake; and Nansemond County becoming City of Nansemond and then quickly merging with the City of Suffolk to create the large (in land area) City of Suffolk.   

The end result being that "older" Norfolk and Portsmouth were surrounded (at least on land) by three large cities instead of counties, and as cities (even newly-established ones), they were entirely immune to annexation efforts by the "old" cities.

There were ugly annexation battles between City of Alexandria and Fairfax County back in the 1960's as well, though I think they ended up being settled with both sides not too angry at each other.

There's a great discussion of these matters on the Virginia Places Web site here (http://www.virginiaplaces.org/vacities/towncityboundaries.html) and here (this one discussing the reason for the lack of counties in Hampton Roads) (http://www.virginiaplaces.org/vacities/sevatowns.html).

The Virginia News Letter (2012): Virginia’s Never-ending Moratorium on City-County Annexations (http://www.coopercenter.org/sites/default/files/publications/Virginia%20News%20Letter%202012%20Vol.%2088%20No%201.pdf) (.pdf)

Washington Post article about annexation wars in Virginia from 1981: Annexation (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1981/11/22/annexation/4c6caca4-3778-4d41-9b10-0715cfb98645/).
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 14, 2016, 02:05:08 PM
I remember my parents telling me that their house (in Prince George County, where I lived as a child) was supposed to have been annexed by the city of Hopewell at some point in the late 1980s I think.  All I remember being told offhand is that the line was supposed to extend to VA 106/VA 156 (Ruffin Rd) in some manner.

Personally, I am glad that I was in the Prince George County school system instead of the Hopewell school system.  (for many reasons I will not explain here)
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 14, 2016, 09:00:00 PM
I remember my parents telling me that their house (in Prince George County, where I lived as a child) was supposed to have been annexed by the city of Hopewell at some point in the late 1980s I think.  All I remember being told offhand is that the line was supposed to extend to VA 106/VA 156 (Ruffin Rd) in some manner.

Though at that point, I think Hopewell and Prince George County would have had to agree on an annexation, since I believe the Virginia General Assembly's moratorium on "hostile" annexations was in effect.

Personally, I am glad that I was in the Prince George County school system instead of the Hopewell school system.  (for many reasons I will not explain here)

There are often differences between close-by public schools.  The City of Fairfax (entirely surrounded by  Fairfax County and its nationally-respected Fairfax County Public Schools) did (IMO) the smart thing by essentially outsourcing all of its education responsibilities to Fairfax County Public Schools. 

Williamsburg and James City County  have a "joint" public school system, and there may be others like that across Virginia that I am not aware of.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: VTGoose on October 15, 2016, 02:28:03 PM
Quote
Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond Princess Anne County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk Virginia Beach).

FTFY.

That wasn't a fix since what I posted was correct.  :nod:  What you should have posted was an addition since Princess Anne/Virginia Beach came about in the same manner -- to protect themselves from annexation, as cpzilliacus noted in the message that followed.

Annexation was both ugly and fruitful in this part of the state. Christiansburg in the '80s sucked up large parts of Montgomery County, adding what is now the large commercial area along U.S. 460 and VA 114, along with several large residential subdivisions. Blacksburg tried to work a deal in that move that would have made VA 114 the boundary between the two towns, but was shot down.

Over in Radford, the city worked out an agreement with Pulaski County over Fairlawn just across the New River. Radford was eyeing the commercial strip along U.S. 11 for annexation, but instead worked out a revenue-sharing deal that allowed Pulaski County to keep that area and collect the taxes, which worked out the best for both sides.

Bruce in Blacksburg
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: froggie on October 15, 2016, 05:05:37 PM
Norfolk wasn't in a position to annex anything in what is now Suffolk.  Portsmouth was, but Norfolk wasn't.

And nothing I've found in Nansemond County's history suggests that they merged with Suffolk to prevent annexation.  If you have something that suggests otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Thing 342 on October 15, 2016, 06:03:49 PM
Quote
Until a moratorium was declared a number of years ago, independent cities and towns could annex land from counties, which lead to developments outside city/town limits being grabbed by a city or town to improve the tax base (at the expense of the county). Nansemond Princess Anne County became a city as a move to protect itself from annexation of part of it by Norfolk (ultimately merging with the City of Suffolk Virginia Beach).

FTFY.

That wasn't a fix since what I posted was correct.  :nod:  What you should have posted was an addition since Princess Anne/Virginia Beach came about in the same manner -- to protect themselves from annexation, as cpzilliacus noted in the message that followed.

Annexation was both ugly and fruitful in this part of the state. Christiansburg in the '80s sucked up large parts of Montgomery County, adding what is now the large commercial area along U.S. 460 and VA 114, along with several large residential subdivisions. Blacksburg tried to work a deal in that move that would have made VA 114 the boundary between the two towns, but was shot down.

Over in Radford, the city worked out an agreement with Pulaski County over Fairlawn just across the New River. Radford was eyeing the commercial strip along U.S. 11 for annexation, but instead worked out a revenue-sharing deal that allowed Pulaski County to keep that area and collect the taxes, which worked out the best for both sides.

Bruce in Blacksburg
Bruce, do you know the reason why Blacksburg is still part of Montgomery, despite being more populous than say, Radford?
Title: Re: What\'s the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 15, 2016, 08:29:52 PM
Norfolk wasn't in a position to annex anything in what is now Suffolk.  Portsmouth was, but Norfolk wasn't.

I agree.  A map of Nansemond County, Portsmouth and Norfolk makes that pretty clear. I was talking generally about Norfolk and Portsmouth getting "walled in" by the three new cities that formed south, east and west of those two.

And nothing I've found in Nansemond County's history suggests that they merged with Suffolk to prevent annexation.  If you have something that suggests otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Read this (http://articles.dailypress.com/2004-02-03/news/0402030005_1_suffolk-merger-city-services) from 2004 (some of which is obviously dated, such as VDOT maintaining roads in Suffolk), which seems to imply (and I have heard from talking with others over the years) that Nansemond County did not wish to have its land annexed by Portsmouth, and merged with several towns to create the City of Nansemond, and then old City of Suffolk (leaving the City of Suffolk as the survivor) to prevent that.

(http://www.aaroads.com/forum/Themes/Button_Copy/images/buttons/mutcd_merge.png)Post Merge: October 15, 2016, 08:37:54 PM
Bruce, do you know the reason why Blacksburg is still part of Montgomery, despite being more populous than say, Radford?

I am not Bruce, but I speculate that Blacksburg may wish to remain a town (and thus part of Montgomery County) so that it does not have to fund a courts system, sheriff, jail and a public schools system
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 15, 2016, 08:49:54 PM
The key is, as VPIGoose noted, that there were a lot of consolidations in a very short time in that part of Virginia. Look at how that area is dominated by cities now. It's because the old cities would have swallowed up the area had the rest of them not acted on their own to avoid it. What the timetable would have been, who knows. It would have happened. The annexation problem was not unique to southeastern Virginia; it happened in various areas (Charlottesville and Albemarle was another) because the counties felt the cities had too much unilateral authority. The counties were probably right on that one.

No need to be so hyperactive in terms of correcting each other, though I understand some people would be upset if you failed to acknowledge a single skip line of abnormal length on the entire length of I-95.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: VTGoose on October 15, 2016, 10:09:59 PM
Bruce, do you know the reason why Blacksburg is still part of Montgomery, despite being more populous than say, Radford?

Blacksburg has a somewhat limited tax base* and really nothing to gain by going for city status. There was an attempt and a vote to pursue city status back in the '80s but it failed. One of the reasons the opponents cited for staying in the county was that as a city, Blacksburg would have no connection and no say in how Montgomery County handled zoning and development in the areas just outside the boundaries. The cost factor of supporting required services, mainly courts and schools (even if contracted with the county, since most of the schools in the town limits have both town and county students) was also a downside. Since then, because of how supervisor districts are divided up based on population, Blacksburg is divided among multiple districts, which gives the town a slight advantage in numbers of the Board of Supervisors and the School Board (although a shift in the last election gave the Republicans a 4-3 partisan majority on the supervisors). There is still some tension between Blacksburg and the rest of the county, where some residents (wrongly) believe "Blacksburg gets everything" (especially in the schools). Because of Virginia Tech, housing values in town never really took a hit when the real estate market went south. Buying a house in town costs a whole lot more than buying in Christiansburg or the county. Blacksburg contributes a large amount of money to the county budget now through property taxes so can exert a bit of influence when there are discussions about county projects that might impact the town.

*Blacksburg has the Virginia Tech campus taking up a large part of the land within the town limits, plus county property taken up with five schools (now six, plus the old high school and former middle school site). There is also a large area between the 460 bypass and Brush Mountain that could be developed but won't be since there is a small but vocal group of "tree huggers" who won't allow it (its complicated). At the time of the vote for city status, the town didn't have a very strong commercial/industrial tax base and there was concern that the property tax burden on homeowners would be onerous.

Bruce in Blacksburg
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 16, 2016, 12:55:13 AM
The key is, as VPIGoose noted, that there were a lot of consolidations in a very short time in that part of Virginia. Look at how that area is dominated by cities now. It's because the old cities would have swallowed up the area had the rest of them not acted on their own to avoid it. What the timetable would have been, who knows. It would have happened. The annexation problem was not unique to southeastern Virginia; it happened in various areas (Charlottesville and Albemarle was another) because the counties felt the cities had too much unilateral authority. The counties were probably right on that one.

I suppose if cities were parts of counties (as they usually are in the other 49 states), then annexation of land by a Virginia city  would be rather like a Virginia town annexing unincorporated lands outside its corporate limits. 

There have been annexation controversies in Maryland as well, but because the county boundaries are not impacted by municipal annexations (except Baltimore City, which has not annexed for nearly a century and is now effectively not allowed to annex (http://www.baltimoremagazine.net/old-site/features/2007/12/100-years-the-12-events-that-shaped-baltimore)), it's not the same.

No need to be so hyperactive in terms of correcting each other, though I understand some people would be upset if you failed to acknowledge a single skip line of abnormal length on the entire length of I-95.

My comment about the two "old" cities (Norfolk and Portsmouth) being "walled-off" from any new annexations was informed by talking with people that know the history of the Hampton Roads area of Virginia much better than I. 

There were proposals advanced by the federal courts for busing of public school students to meet desegregation goals that would have impacted various parts of the Commonwealth, including Hampton Roads (I do not know if busing plans were ever implemented there or elsewhere in Virginia), but I believe that public school issues in general, and busing in particular, made annexation by Norfolk and Portsmouth less than welcome in those former counties.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Alps on October 16, 2016, 12:37:57 PM
Is it VA 624, SR 624, or SSR 624?  I've seen all three of them in various places.
Late to the game...
For any state where there are state-maintained secondary routes that repeat by county, I refer to them as "Accomack SR 676" (example). That specifies the location, in a state with multiple SR's of the same number, while clarifying that it's not a County Route or CR. For states where secondary routes don't repeat, SR is sufficient. For states with county routes that don't repeat (I'm looking at you, Iowa), I wouldn't include the county either. It slightly irks me when people in NJ refer to "Burlington CR 543". It's just CR 543. Same one in every county.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 16, 2016, 12:44:15 PM
Is it VA 624, SR 624, or SSR 624?  I've seen all three of them in various places.
Late to the game...
For any state where there are state-maintained secondary routes that repeat by county, I refer to them as "Accomack SR 676" (example). That specifies the location, in a state with multiple SR's of the same number, while clarifying that it's not a County Route or CR. For states where secondary routes don't repeat, SR is sufficient. For states with county routes that don't repeat (I'm looking at you, Iowa), I wouldn't include the county either. It slightly irks me when people in NJ refer to "Burlington CR 543". It's just CR 543. Same one in every county.

That's a good idea, especially since Virginia's secondary system route numbers repeat all over the Commonwealth, especially those in the 600 to (about) 900 range.

I was under the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that the New Jersey  numbered "secondary" highway  route numbers (those in the 500 to 699 range) do not repeat (of course, that is easier for New Jersey to accomplish since the Garden State has a much smaller land area than the Commonwealth of Virginia).
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: hbelkins on October 16, 2016, 06:27:40 PM
How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

I don't think very many of West Virginia's county (secondary) routes do, if any.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 16, 2016, 08:14:36 PM
How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

I believe most do, but I am sure there are exceptions that keep me from thinking of any sort of a percentage.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 16, 2016, 08:42:13 PM
I cannot offer a percentage (froggie or Mapmikey might be able to do so), but I certainly know some of them do. Here in Northern Virginia, Route 620 (Braddock Road) readily comes to mind.

It doesn't necessarily "invalidate" using a county or city name, of course. It just counsels caution in doing so.
Title: Re: What\'s the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 16, 2016, 09:23:46 PM
How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

Most Virginia secondary roads that cross county borders do not change route numbers (note that I exclude cases where a city is involved, since Virginia cities generally do not sign secondaries, nor cases where a county boundary is also a town boundary on one side for the same  reason).

The two secondaries that I can immediately think of in Northern Virginia that cross the line are 620 (Hoo mentioned that one); 612 (Yates Ford Road) between Prince William and Fairfax Counties); and 659 between Prince William and Loudoun Counties.

621 (Freemans Ford Road) crosses the Rappahannock River (also the border between Culpeper County and Fauquier County).

Then there's the matter of 601 that roughly straddles the boundary between Clarke and Loudoun Counties at the crest of the Blue Ridge (and passes by the federal Mount Weather complex, much beloved by conspiracy theorists).

606 exists in Fairfax and Loudoun Counties, but it "gaps" at the county line, because it crosses into the Town of Herndon on the Fairfax County side, though Herndon is the rare Virginia municipality that signs at least one secondary road (this one) within its corporate limits.  On the other side of Herndon, the VDOT-posted route number happily resumes.

(http://www.aaroads.com/forum/Themes/Button_Copy/images/buttons/mutcd_merge.png)Post Merge: October 16, 2016, 09:57:45 PM
I believe most do, but I am sure there are exceptions that keep me from thinking of any sort of a percentage.

I cannot name a secondary route in Virginia that changes numbers at a county line, though there's probably somewhere a primary route that becomes a secondary at a county line, which  means the route number has to change.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 16, 2016, 10:01:00 PM
I believe most do, but I am sure there are exceptions that keep me from thinking of any sort of a percentage.
I cannot name a secondary route in Virginia that changes numbers at a county line, though there's probably somewhere a primary route that becomes a secondary at a county line, which  means the route number has to change.

Neither can I hence my statement, though there could be a random exception that none of us know about from what I can tell. However, I believe the primary route scenario happens with VA 67 (http://vahighways.com/route-log/va061-070.htm).   
Title: Re: What\'s the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: hbelkins on October 16, 2016, 10:48:27 PM
I cannot name a secondary route in Virginia that changes numbers at a county line, though there's probably somewhere a primary route that becomes a secondary at a county line, which  means the route number has to change.

Happens with VA 68. Becomes a secondary at the Wise/Lee line for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: froggie on October 17, 2016, 07:20:28 AM
Far too many random primary-to-secondary route number changes to count here.

I am unaware of any secondary-to-secondary route number changes, however, at county lines.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Mapmikey on October 17, 2016, 07:25:47 AM
How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

I believe most do, but I am sure there are exceptions that keep me from thinking of any sort of a percentage.

All secondary routes retain their numbers crossing county lines.  i am aware of 3 exceptions - 1 current and 2 historical:

Current:  Algonkian Parkway (Loudoun 1582/Fairfax 6220).

Past: Louisa SR 665 became Orange 600 (this is now SR 669 on both sides).  This was likely unintentional as SR 665 only had 0.15 miles before it turned into VA 16.  Orange may have thought the primary designation went to the county line.

Nottoway SR 645 became Brunswick 614.  This was a direct result of Nottoway not opting in to the state maintenance of its roads right away.  All the surrounding counties did and two of them had a SR 614 at the Nottoway line.  This was corrected by 1945 when Brunswick and Nottoway swapped their 614 designations for 645. 

I found the Nottoway example and credit goes to NE2 for the other two...


Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 17, 2016, 08:43:05 AM
Far too many random primary-to-secondary route number changes to count here.

Certainly those can be found around Virginia.  In Fairfax County, 309 (Old Dominion Drive) becomes 738 at 123 (Dolley Madison Boulevard).

But changes that happen right on a county line (aside from the two mentioned upthread)? 

I am unaware of any secondary-to-secondary route number changes, however, at county lines.

Not sure I have ever seen one personally.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 17, 2016, 09:33:05 AM
Far too many random primary-to-secondary route number changes to count here.

Certainly those can be found around Virginia.  In Fairfax County, 309 (Old Dominion Drive) becomes 738 at 123 (Dolley Madison Boulevard).

But changes that happy right on a county line (aside from the two mentioned upthread)? 

....

Locally in Northern Virginia, you have Van Dorn Street, which is a primary route (401) within the City of Alexandria and becomes a secondary route (613) when it crosses into Fairfax County. A few years ago the CTB was considering whether to extend the primary designation further south, but Fairfax County opposed it and the idea was dropped.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Mapmikey on October 17, 2016, 09:38:10 AM
From a thread in 2014...

Quote
The current list of routes that have an endpoint at a CL or County Line.  I probably have missed one or two...
VA 67, VA 68, VA 98 (sort of), VA 99, VA 136, VA 139, VA 142, VA 162, VA 181, VA 187, VA 188, VA 213, VA 227, VA 228, VA 244, VA 290, VA 397, VA 407

I did miss VA 401.  Depending on interpretation, VA 402 might also qualify.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 17, 2016, 10:40:49 AM
From a thread in 2014...

Quote
The current list of routes that have an endpoint at a CL or County Line.  I probably have missed one or two...
VA 67, VA 68, VA 98 (sort of), VA 99, VA 136, VA 139, VA 142, VA 162, VA 181, VA 187, VA 188, VA 213, VA 227, VA 228, VA 244, VA 290, VA 397, VA 407

I did miss VA 401.  Depending on interpretation, VA 402 might also qualify.

Is 401 signed?  At all?

244 was decommissioned in most of Arlington County for the  Columbia Pike streetcar project (now cancelled). I suppose it will not return to VDOT maintenance at this point.

Amusingly, on the other side of the creek, the state of Maryland took over maintenance from Montgomery  County of several streets on which the proposed Purple Line light rail will run (if the current NIMBY litigation can be settled).

These new Maryland state highways are:  MD-594A, Wayne Ave/E Wayne Ave; MD-594B, Bonifant St (west); MD-594C, Bonifant St (east); and MD-594D, Arliss St.  Last time I was by there, none were signed as state-maintained.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Mapmikey on October 17, 2016, 10:53:52 AM


Is 401 signed?  At all?


As of Sept 2014 it still was...

https://goo.gl/maps/UHShjotZGVw

Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 17, 2016, 10:54:40 AM
401 is definitely signed. See, for example, the odd-looking shield on the northbound side near the Metro stop:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8004328,-77.1339509,3a,75y,21.89h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st3bV4Lfqy4TpbXaEGEvZdw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

EDITED TO ADD: Mapmikey posted the same one while I was typing. That sign was still there as of this weekend.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: There is also this other ugly thing outside BJ's. I haven't been through in that direction recently to note whether it's still there. I'm off work today and I need to head over to King Street later, so I may come home via that route to confirm.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8126328,-77.1310511,3a,75y,267.5h,83.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s72e29TjjBkdIVvX-Y8m3uQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


There was briefly an error VA-401 shield on a BGS on the Inner Loop in Maryland when the signs first went up for the Beltway's Local/Thru split. The sign for the Thru lane exits listed Van Dorn Street with a quite well-done VA-401 shield, but it was an error because at the Beltway interchange it's Route 613. It was corrected fairly quickly. If you look closely in the following link, you can see the greenout:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8154696,-76.9542028,3a,75y,258.08h,81.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv7t6vknJC7SIcQe7KHmLhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 17, 2016, 12:45:24 PM
401 is definitely signed. See, for example, the odd-looking shield on the northbound side near the Metro stop:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8004328,-77.1339509,3a,75y,21.89h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st3bV4Lfqy4TpbXaEGEvZdw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

EDITED TO ADD: Mapmikey posted the same one while I was typing. That sign was still there as of this weekend.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: There is also this other ugly thing outside BJ's. I haven't been through in that direction recently to note whether it's still there. I'm off work today and I need to head over to King Street later, so I may come home via that route to confirm.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8126328,-77.1310511,3a,75y,267.5h,83.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s72e29TjjBkdIVvX-Y8m3uQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


There was briefly an error VA-401 shield on a BGS on the Inner Loop in Maryland when the signs first went up for the Beltway's Local/Thru split. The sign for the Thru lane exits listed Van Dorn Street with a quite well-done VA-401 shield, but it was an error because at the Beltway interchange it's Route 613. It was corrected fairly quickly. If you look closely in the following link, you can see the greenout:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8154696,-76.9542028,3a,75y,258.08h,81.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv7t6vknJC7SIcQe7KHmLhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Hoo and Mapmikey, good catches!  I have been up and down that street quite a few times, and I will be darned if I have seen those (I have even been to that BJ's).

Could it be that I am subconsciously expecting sign placement to be similar to the way that VDOT specifies it?  Does not usually happen in Alexandria
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 17, 2016, 01:30:10 PM
Hoo and Mapmikey, good catches!  I have been up and down that street quite a few times, and I will be darned if I have seen those (I have even been to that BJ's).

....

I drive on that road all the time, so I see the one underneath the speed limit sign quite frequently. Off the top of my head I cannot think of any others aside from the one at BJ's, but the Street View imagery is a little outdated in spots, so who knows.



Returning to the original topic, I was looking at this clickable speed limit map and I found its creators refer to secondary routes in the format "SC-###[direction]"—for example, clicking on Franconia Road in front of St. Lawrence Church pops up the following listing (boldface removed because I can't be bothered to insert the formatting codes):

Quote
Speed Limits
Car Speed Limit: 35
Truck Speed Limit: 35
Speedzone Type: Conventional
Authority: Resolution
Length in Miles: 6.21
Route: SC-644E (Fairfax County)
Start Jurisdiction: Fairfax County
End Jurisdiction: Fairfax County
Route Type: Secondary Route
Start District: Northern Virginia
End District: Northern Virginia

It seems like they list a direction even on undivided roads, as clicking on Telegraph Road outside Greendale Golf Course returned a reference to "SC-611N." (For primary routes, they substitute "VA-" for "SC-," and of course as you'd expect they use "US-" and "I-" where appropriate.)

http://virginiaroads.org/Mapping/#SpeedZones
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Mapmikey on October 17, 2016, 01:34:09 PM
Offline someone has alerted me to 6 more examples of the SR number changing at the county line.  These are just northwest of the US 221-460/VA 220 ALT intersection...

Cortland Road (Botetourt SR 1464/Roanoke SR 1003) – SR transition is unposted.
*Orchard Park Drive (1459/1048) – unposted
*Gala Drive (1453/1025) - posted
*Rome Drive (1456/1024) - posted
*Hillview Drive (1420/1011) - posted
*Laurel Ridge Drive (1444/1447) - posted

Most of these 6 are posted - https://goo.gl/maps/e8PeZnVR7Rm

The Botetourt side of the neighborhood came first.  When it was connected into Roanoke County my guess is that Botetourt didn't feel like renumbering them to numbers Roanoke had available.  Roanoke ended up using numbers it had once used long ago.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Bitmapped on October 17, 2016, 03:19:31 PM
How many Virginia secondary routes retain their number when they cross county lines?

I don't think very many of West Virginia's county (secondary) routes do, if any.
Old US 21 (CR 21) and old US 33 (CR 151) do, but that's pretty much it. Numbering for the non-fractional county routes generally seems to start in the northwestern corner of the county and increase as you head south and east, so it's unlikely the grids are going to overlap between counties.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 17, 2016, 05:48:56 PM
Following up on the Route 401 signs, I drove it both ways about an hour ago and I noted three signs:

—The northbound one Mapmikey and I posted before, same as shown in those images.

—The southbound one outside BJ's has been replaced with a sign that's identical to the northbound one except it doesn't have a speed limit sign on the same pole.

—There's also another one southbound outside the McDonald's just south of Edsall Road; that sign looks like the old one outside BJ's shown in the Street View image linked above. It's on Street View but it's hard to see due to a truck:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8069547,-77.1334749,3a,75y,285.89h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9ieq5RGvc0_iHI8O3JgLcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: odditude on June 09, 2017, 09:24:49 AM
Sorry for the necrobump, but while going through this topic I noticed an incorrect assumption I wanted to clear up.

I was under the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that the New Jersey  numbered "secondary" highway  route numbers (those in the 500 to 699 range) do not repeat (of course, that is easier for New Jersey to accomplish since the Garden State has a much smaller land area than the Commonwealth of Virginia).
You are correct for the 500-series routes, which do not repeat.

However, the other country routes (600+ and 0-99 in the counties that don't agree with the rest of the state) are only unique in-county. Burlington CR 626 (from Beverly to Mt Holly) is a completely different road from Camden CR 626 (Chapel Ave, largely in Cherry Hill). 600-series routes can and do change numbers when crossing county lines, although there are examples of route number coordination as well (Old Marlton Pike is CR 600 in both Burlington and Camden Counties).
Title: Re: What\'s the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: dvferyance on June 22, 2017, 10:49:35 PM
I cannot name a secondary route in Virginia that changes numbers at a county line, though there's probably somewhere a primary route that becomes a secondary at a county line, which  means the route number has to change.

Happens with VA 68. Becomes a secondary at the Wise/Lee line for no apparent reason.
Also VA 108 becomes SSR 890 at the Henry Franklin county line. It used to go up to VA 40 but was downgraded in Franklin County.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Mapmikey on June 22, 2017, 11:09:37 PM
Also VA 108 becomes SSR 890 at the Henry Franklin county line. It used to go up to VA 40 but was downgraded in Franklin County.

This is not accurate.  VA 108 ends 1.65 miles short of the county line.  See page 8 of the May 1952 CTB - http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/meetings/minutes_pdf/CTB-05-1952-01.pdf

It is also posted that way in the field where it ends at Henry SR 657 swing the view around to the other direction to see VA 108 reassurance - https://goo.gl/maps/8tergNt41t32

The original question from Oct '16 was whether secondary numbers ever change at county lines in Virginia.  I am aware of examples with Fairfax-Loudoun and with Roanoke-Botetourt.  Historically Nottoway-Prince Edward (I think...Nottoway is definitely right) also had one.
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: plain on July 24, 2017, 11:43:28 PM
Glad I remembered seeing this thread. Question: are SR routes concurrent with US and VA routes for continuance purposes? I know if they are then they're not signed at all for the most part but I remember a long time ago there were these arrows under the circle shield on US 258 in Isle Of Wight county. This old GSV actually shows one still in use at the time but I believe it's gone now

https://goo.gl/maps/p2yChSArFpw
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: Mapmikey on July 25, 2017, 06:20:04 AM
Glad I remembered seeing this thread. Question: are SR routes concurrent with US and VA routes for continuance purposes? I know if they are then they're not signed at all for the most part but I remember a long time ago there were these arrows under the circle shield on US 258 in Isle Of Wight county. This old GSV actually shows one still in use at the time but I believe it's gone now

https://goo.gl/maps/p2yChSArFpw

Posting like you've linked to here is district-dependent.  District 8 (Staunton) has many postings like this for short SR concurrencies.

There are some actual dually posted primary/secondary pairs that are longer than a couple tenths of a mile:

VA 185 and VA 285 are entirely co-posted with secondary routes.

VA 208 is co-posted with a secondary designation for a while in the Post Oak area.

VA 242 is posted as To SR 600 as it's entire route overlays a chunk of SR 600.

On paper, some of the VA 42 missing links are concurrent with secondary routes.

Spot checking traffic data, the secondary routes do not get mileage or traffic count data on its primary route overlays regardless of distance (other than the VA 42 gaps).
Title: Re: What's the correct way to refer to Virginia secondary routes?
Post by: dfnva on July 26, 2017, 11:53:56 AM
The Staunton district is the best in the Commonwealth for consistent posting of SRs and SR multiplexes with other routes (including other SRs).

Northern Virginia would have be the worst. SR multiplexes are very rarely posted. Many intersections (in Fairfax and Prince William County, particularly) have no SR postings at all or the SR is only posted very small on street sign blades (Prince William County). Chesterfield County is not much better, but the VDOT Richmond district posts well in other counties.