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Regional Boards => Midwest - Great Lakes => Topic started by: silverback1065 on November 13, 2017, 06:12:06 PM

Title: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: silverback1065 on November 13, 2017, 06:12:06 PM
I mean it makes sense, why didn't they consider this?  43 has no child routes, and it doesn't have a conflict with US 41. 
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 13, 2017, 06:13:16 PM
How many times are we going to have this debate?  It was "Highway 41" before.  It is "Highway 41" now.  No one is confused.  It's just fine the way it is.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: GeekJedi on November 13, 2017, 06:50:22 PM
^ This. They considered an x43 designation, and decided that I-41 made more sense. For someone that uses it all the time, I agree!
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: bessertc on November 13, 2017, 07:30:18 PM
As often as I visit Wisconsin, I guess the portion of my gas tax dollars that went to pay for all those new signs was relatively small, so I feel sorriest for those who live in Wisconsin for having to fund them all. I'd be curious to know how much it cost the taxpayers of Wisconsin for thousands and thousands of new signs for the route between the Illinois state line and Howard, all for the net gain of... thousands and thousands of new signs. Any of the perceived benefits the communities along the "I-41" corridor have now, they've actually had for years.

US-41 was a fully-limited-access freeway prior to it becoming an Interstate and it's a fully-limited-access freeway after. Yes, I'm sure there may be an additional "funding pot" of federal dollars now available for that corridor, but how many years will it be until it makes up for "needing" to change the black-and-white "41" signs to red-white-and-blue "41" signs? And if the civic leaders along the corridor feel their cities now have the cachet of "being on an Interstate," I don't think it should be up to ALL of the taxpayers and motorists of Wisconsin just to pay for shiny new signs to get them what they already had, minus the two red and the blue on those signs. I wonder if those civic leaders and economic development folks would've been so geeked about US-41's Interstate designation if all the money for the conversion had to come from their city budgets instead of making everyone across the state from Dodgeville to Hurley and from Lake Geneva to Rice Lake pay for them? Just some questions that I'm sure most of those who were pushing for "I-41" hadn't considered.

BTW, the same goes for I-39, too, just to be fair.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Big John on November 13, 2017, 07:36:47 PM
^^ cost was $5-7 million: http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/ne/us41interstate/faqs.aspx
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: bessertc on November 13, 2017, 07:40:19 PM
^^ cost was $5-7 million: http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/ne/us41interstate/faqs.aspx

I knew I'd read that somewhere, but I couldn't remember where.

So, I guess my (somewhat rhetorical) question would be: Were all those new signs worth $5–7 million?

I know so many major road projects cost so much more than that, but I wonder if there might have been something more "worthwhile" that money could have been spent on rather than some shiny new signs with different colors on them.

Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: GeekJedi on November 13, 2017, 08:41:12 PM
That's a question for the cities along the route that requested the designation. They felt that having an "I" route would benefit the region financially.

Is there something more worthwhile? Perhaps, but that's totally a judgement call. It was worthwhile enough for them to lobby to have it done.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: ilpt4u on November 13, 2017, 08:54:59 PM
Alas, it is done, for better or for worse

I-41 is here to stay
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: hbelkins on November 13, 2017, 10:04:36 PM
I mean it makes sense, why didn't they consider this?  43 has no child routes, and it doesn't have a conflict with US 41.

Because when North Carolina finished hitting the crack pipe re: US 74/I-74, they sent it to Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: oscar on November 13, 2017, 10:37:43 PM
I mean it makes sense, why didn't they consider this?  43 has no child routes, and it doesn't have a conflict with US 41.

Because when North Carolina finished hitting the crack pipe re: US 74/I-74, they sent it to Wisconsin.

Unlike in NC, nowhere do I-41 and US 41 split and go off in different directions. So little danger of motorist confusion.

I-41/US 41 follow California's approach to route numbering. There is in theory one California route per number (some numbered routes are broken up by never-built and relinquished segments, or national parks), and it doesn't matter whether individual segments are marked with Interstate, US, or state shields. Thus, I-15 and CA 15 are both parts of "route 15", I-110 and CA 110 are both parts of "route 110", I-210 and CA 210 are both parts of "route 210", and I-238 and CA 238 are both parts of "route 238".
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 14, 2017, 12:54:48 AM
It should be I-55.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: ilpt4u on November 14, 2017, 01:46:08 AM
It should be I-55.
I'd have preferred I-65, but I-55 would have been fine, as would have I-57

But again, I-41 is done. It is not going away. It is here to stay
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: sparker on November 14, 2017, 03:31:18 AM
Look....WIDOT screwed the pooch back in '74 when they opted for I-43 for the original Milwaukee-Green Bay Interstate corridor authorized in the '68 legislation, rather than the more grid-appropriate I-47 or I-49 (which was still available back then).  FUBAR'd the entire upper Midwest "grid" in the process.  40 years later, I-41 was about the best they could do for the 2nd corridor.   
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 14, 2017, 06:13:43 AM
Look....WIDOT screwed the pooch back in '74 when they opted for I-43 for the original Milwaukee-Green Bay Interstate corridor authorized in the '68 legislation, rather than the more grid-appropriate I-47 or I-49 (which was still available back then).  FUBAR'd the entire upper Midwest "grid" in the process.  40 years later, I-41 was about the best they could do for the 2nd corridor.   


Don't be a slave to the grid.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: cabiness42 on November 14, 2017, 09:08:15 AM
I think back when most people used maps to travel long distances, having an interstate designation was actually worth something financially to a city/area.  Now that more people use GPS, I think people are going to use expressways if they are the fastest route regardless of whether or not they carry an interstate designation.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: silverback1065 on November 14, 2017, 09:13:06 AM
How many times are we going to have this debate?  It was "Highway 41" before.  It is "Highway 41" now.  No one is confused.  It's just fine the way it is.

until they change it  :bigass:
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: invincor on November 14, 2017, 09:14:25 AM
There was a lot of reconstruction along this corridor recently anyway, wasn't there?  My original hometown's main street was redone this summer, and all of the US highway signs through the town were replaced with new ones as part of the reconstruction, and I notice their reflective paint for night driving behaves slightly differently than the old ones did.
If signs like this usually get replaced alongside reconstruction anyway, was it really that much of an extra cost to add I-41 to them?  Was that number quoted above bound to get spent anyway even if it had remained simply US 41?

 
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 14, 2017, 09:22:27 AM
I think back when most people used maps to travel long distances, having an interstate designation was actually worth something financially to a city/area.  Now that more people use GPS, I think people are going to use expressways if they are the fastest route regardless of whether or not they carry an interstate designation.

I agree.  I also think that's why any sort of "grid" is useless now too.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Brandon on November 14, 2017, 09:34:05 AM
Look....WIDOT screwed the pooch back in '74 when they opted for I-43 for the original Milwaukee-Green Bay Interstate corridor authorized in the '68 legislation, rather than the more grid-appropriate I-47 or I-49 (which was still available back then).  FUBAR'd the entire upper Midwest "grid" in the process.  40 years later, I-41 was about the best they could do for the 2nd corridor.   

WisDOT screwed nothing.  IDOT screwed WisDOT by deciding initially not to extend I-57 north.  Put the blame where it belongs.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: english si on November 14, 2017, 09:36:16 AM
Unlike in NC, nowhere do I-41 and US 41 split and go off in different directions. So little danger of motorist confusion.
And even with the NC example - that can be construed as confusing - you have to be a dangerously unobservant driver to confuse the shields with their different colour and shape: the problem is ignorance as to which shield design is which type of road rather than inability to tell them apart!

I mean, clearly this ought not be a problem, else Business Interstates, especially spurs, would be considered confusing because it's merely the same number on a different coloured shield.

And then there's bannered US routes...
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: hbelkins on November 14, 2017, 10:20:22 AM
It really should have been a three-digit route.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: kphoger on November 14, 2017, 01:04:39 PM
How many times are we going to have this debate?

Until everyone is convinced that I'm right!



Unlike in NC, nowhere do I-41 and US 41 split and go off in different directions. So little danger of motorist confusion.
And even with the NC example - that can be construed as confusing - you have to be a dangerously unobservant driver to confuse the shields with their different colour and shape: the problem is ignorance as to which shield design is which type of road rather than inability to tell them apart!

I mean, clearly this ought not be a problem, else Business Interstates, especially spurs, would be considered confusing because it's merely the same number on a different coloured shield.

And then there's bannered US routes...

I think you're underestimating the number of people who don't really know the difference between route shields.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: TheHighwayMan394 on November 14, 2017, 01:12:13 PM
How many times are we going to have this debate?  It was "Highway 41" before.  It is "Highway 41" now.  No one is confused.  It's just fine the way it is.

I guess when non-residents finally accept some states do stuff they don’t like?
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Brandon on November 14, 2017, 01:20:18 PM
One could ask what was wrong with US-41...
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: GeekJedi on November 14, 2017, 02:36:41 PM
One could ask what was wrong with US-41...

One could, but it was asked and answered! ;-)

The respective chambers-of-commerce and gov leaders from several Fox Valley cities requested an "I" designation. They felt it held more "prestige" than the US route designation.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: sparker on November 14, 2017, 02:48:28 PM
Look....WIDOT screwed the pooch back in '74 when they opted for I-43 for the original Milwaukee-Green Bay Interstate corridor authorized in the '68 legislation, rather than the more grid-appropriate I-47 or I-49 (which was still available back then).  FUBAR'd the entire upper Midwest "grid" in the process.  40 years later, I-41 was about the best they could do for the 2nd corridor.   

WisDOT screwed nothing.  IDOT screwed WisDOT by deciding initially not to extend I-57 north.  Put the blame where it belongs.

Historically, you are correct; the overall problem can be laid at the feet of IDOT as well as the political interests in Chicago, who refused to go along with the plan that (a) truncated I-94 in Milwaukee, (b) extended I-57 over what was previously I-94 up to Milwaukee and then north to Green Bay, including making the Calumet portion of I-94 between I-80 and I-57 a x57, and (c) commissioned I-92 over both I-294 and I-94 east across Michigan to Port Huron.  That plan was dropped when IL and Chicago complained that the renumbering of those previously established routes would cause navigation problems in the area (personally, I think it would have actually simplified things!); abetted by "co-sniveling" from Michigan.  AASHO (as it was known in those days), who had drafted the original plan, and FHWA capitulated, requiring WI to select another number.  But even though the overall situation can clearly be laid at the feet of Illinois actors, I still am of the opinion that WIDOT subsequently dropped the ball as regards the substitute numbering. 
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 14, 2017, 02:58:03 PM
It would be almost as long as it's parent route.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: TheHighwayMan394 on November 14, 2017, 06:35:19 PM
What about I-43W and 43E?

*pops a beer*
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Flint1979 on November 14, 2017, 07:53:21 PM
It's going to be called Highway 41 no matter what so it doesn't really matter. My main beef with I-41 is why does it multiplex with I-94 south of Milwaukee? It's not like Illinois is ever going to extend it.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: KeithE4Phx on November 14, 2017, 08:17:06 PM
It's going to be called Highway 41 no matter what so it doesn't really matter. My main beef with I-41 is why does it multiplex with I-94 south of Milwaukee? It's not like Illinois is ever going to extend it.

Because 94 and 41 split a mile or so south of the state line.  It'd be silly to sign it as US 41/I-94 for one mile in Illinois, then switch to I-41/94 in Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: vdeane on November 14, 2017, 09:24:18 PM
I-41 should just end at I-43, so there would be no switch.

Why was there no attempt at a compromise proposal that would extend I-57 but leave I-94 intact?  I can see why IL and MI wouldn't have gone along with the original proposal; while there is logic to the renumbering, to any state but WI, it would be a lot of money spent for "no good reason".
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: sparker on November 14, 2017, 09:41:30 PM
I-41 should just end at I-43, so there would be no switch.

Why was there no attempt at a compromise proposal that would extend I-57 but leave I-94 intact?  I can see why IL and MI wouldn't have gone along with the original proposal; while there is logic to the renumbering, to any state but WI, it would be a lot of money spent for "no good reason".

If back in 1968-70, when the numbers for the new Interstate additions were being worked out, there had been an interchange between I-57 and I-294 (or one planned at the time), it's possible I-57 could have just multiplexed with I-294 and then I-94 into Milwaukee, leaving the existing numbers intact -- but obviously that wasn't the case.  At this point it's 48-year-old water under the bridge; not much can be done about the situation today except to make do with what's available.  My guess is that IDOT balked at a triple-multiplex on the Dan Ryan and NWE, so just running it up I-94 wasn't a consideration.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: english si on November 15, 2017, 06:28:50 AM
I think you're underestimating the number of people who don't really know the difference between route shields.
No, I highlighted that as the problem with the NC example - not that they can't tell the difference between the shields, but that they don't know what that difference is.

If people don't know the difference between route shields, it doesn't matter whether the '41 has US or I- shields, does it, given they are entirely concurrent? ;) The Fox Valley Cities can talk about the Interstate to boost commerce even if many drivers don't notice a change.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: mgk920 on November 15, 2017, 10:21:47 AM
One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: FightingIrish on November 15, 2017, 12:59:15 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with I-41, aside from the various multiplexes designed to annoy road geeks and nobody else. But it works anyway. There's a method to the madness.

The I-41 designation is familiar and fits the grid. And it makes businesses in the Fox River Valley happy. Besides, everybody calls it I-41 now.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2017, 04:11:59 PM
Nobody cares about the US 41/Interstate 41 duplex except roadgeeks, and since we're a minority, I don't see it changing EVER!
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: abefroman329 on November 15, 2017, 04:54:23 PM
I-41 should just end at I-43, so there would be no switch.

Why was there no attempt at a compromise proposal that would extend I-57 but leave I-94 intact?  I can see why IL and MI wouldn't have gone along with the original proposal; while there is logic to the renumbering, to any state but WI, it would be a lot of money spent for "no good reason".

I've also read on here that they were considering extending I-55, which makes more sense, other than having to rename the portion of current I-55 from 90/94 to Lake Shore Drive to I-x55.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 15, 2017, 04:58:49 PM
I believe Wisconsin wanted I-55 for the corridor initially.  Illinois didn't want to compromise.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: dvferyance on November 15, 2017, 05:50:18 PM
One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: mgk920 on November 15, 2017, 06:44:32 PM
One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 15, 2017, 07:26:49 PM
One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: triplemultiplex on November 15, 2017, 10:41:43 PM
Quote
Why isn't I-41 just I-243?

There's already a WI 243.  :bigass:

For the record, the 3di that was floated when the upgrade was being considered was 643.


Absent Illinois being dicks, 41 was the correct number to use in my opinion.  I would have loved an original plan that brought I-55 all the way to Green Bay via what is now I-43, but shortsightedness is not a modern invention.  Working with what we've got, a number other than 41 would be obnoxiously out of place.  My preference is to quietly unsign US 41 between the WI-IL state line and Green Bay.  Because screw US highways.  :sombrero:
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: silverback1065 on November 16, 2017, 07:31:25 AM
i just don't get how they thought that signing 94/90 as 57 was MORE confusing.  Isn't signing a north-south road east-west more confusing? 
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: dvferyance on November 16, 2017, 11:38:23 AM
One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
WisDOT years ago addressed that with a sign at the Stadium Interchange traffic to fox cities and Green Bay via freeway take US 45. This was to prevent any traffic going there from taking US 41 on Lisbon Ave and Appleton Ave which is now WI-175. Again I don't get why there would be any confusion. Perhaps Oshkosh or Appleton should be used at the Mitchell instead of Fond Du Lac but that is easy to change I would think if your going that way anyone would know Fond Du Lac is in that general direction. Besides with the modern technology we have don't truck driver have GPS these days?
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Brandon on November 16, 2017, 12:08:20 PM
One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
WisDOT years ago addressed that with a sign at the Stadium Interchange traffic to fox cities and Green Bay via freeway take US 45. This was to prevent any traffic going there from taking US 41 on Lisbon Ave and Appleton Ave which is now WI-175. Again I don't get why there would be any confusion. Perhaps Oshkosh or Appleton should be used at the Mitchell instead of Fond Du Lac but that is easy to change I would think if your going that way anyone would know Fond Du Lac is in that general direction. Besides with the modern technology we have don't truck driver have GPS these days?

You mean like the truck driver GPS that sends them to the 11 Foot 8 Inch Bridge?
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: dvferyance on November 16, 2017, 04:10:57 PM
One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
WisDOT years ago addressed that with a sign at the Stadium Interchange traffic to fox cities and Green Bay via freeway take US 45. This was to prevent any traffic going there from taking US 41 on Lisbon Ave and Appleton Ave which is now WI-175. Again I don't get why there would be any confusion. Perhaps Oshkosh or Appleton should be used at the Mitchell instead of Fond Du Lac but that is easy to change I would think if your going that way anyone would know Fond Du Lac is in that general direction. Besides with the modern technology we have don't truck driver have GPS these days?

You mean like the truck driver GPS that sends them to the 11 Foot 8 Inch Bridge?
That's in North Carolina.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: roadman65 on November 16, 2017, 04:36:45 PM
It's going to be called Highway 41 no matter what so it doesn't really matter. My main beef with I-41 is why does it multiplex with I-94 south of Milwaukee? It's not like Illinois is ever going to extend it.

Because 94 and 41 split a mile or so south of the state line.  It'd be silly to sign it as US 41/I-94 for one mile in Illinois, then switch to I-41/94 in Wisconsin.
I think he means why have I-41 south of the Zoo?

It should really end there and just I-94 south of Milwaukee with US 41 along for the ride as the interstate did steal away its original alignment.  US 41 was always there and got upgraded when the WI interstate system came to be, so we cannot kick it out of course.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Brandon on November 16, 2017, 05:15:08 PM
You mean like the truck driver GPS that sends them to the 11 Foot 8 Inch Bridge?

That's in North Carolina.

So GPS works better behind the Cheddar Curtain?
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 16, 2017, 06:30:22 PM
One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
WisDOT years ago addressed that with a sign at the Stadium Interchange traffic to fox cities and Green Bay via freeway take US 45. This was to prevent any traffic going there from taking US 41 on Lisbon Ave and Appleton Ave which is now WI-175. Again I don't get why there would be any confusion. Perhaps Oshkosh or Appleton should be used at the Mitchell instead of Fond Du Lac but that is easy to change I would think if your going that way anyone would know Fond Du Lac is in that general direction. Besides with the modern technology we have don't truck driver have GPS these days?


This was in 1989 and I didn't have a map.  I just knew I had to get on US-41 north to head back north.  When i got to see a map, I figured out my mistake and didn't make it again.

Route numbers should be for ease of navigation first and foremost.  Moving US-41 off the city streets should have been done years ago.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Flint1979 on November 16, 2017, 10:36:41 PM
It's going to be called Highway 41 no matter what so it doesn't really matter. My main beef with I-41 is why does it multiplex with I-94 south of Milwaukee? It's not like Illinois is ever going to extend it.

Because 94 and 41 split a mile or so south of the state line.  It'd be silly to sign it as US 41/I-94 for one mile in Illinois, then switch to I-41/94 in Wisconsin.
I think he means why have I-41 south of the Zoo?

It should really end there and just I-94 south of Milwaukee with US 41 along for the ride as the interstate did steal away its original alignment.  US 41 was always there and got upgraded when the WI interstate system came to be, so we cannot kick it out of course.
That is what I meant. Perhaps ending it at I-43 and removing the I-894 numbering all together would make the most sense. Up until I-43 went to Beloit the I-894 numbering made sense but now since the entire thing has two two-di's on it the numbering no longer makes sense.

I think the I-41 numbering is fine because it's considered highway 41 no matter if your refering to it as US 41 or I-41 it's the same thing but routing it south of Milwaukee doesn't make any sense, the US 41 numbering is fine there since it splits from I-94 the first chance it gets after entering Illinois.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: english si on November 17, 2017, 07:14:10 AM
It should really end there and just I-94 south of Milwaukee with US 41 along for the ride as the interstate did steal away its original alignment.  US 41 was always there and got upgraded when the WI interstate system came to be, so we cannot kick it out of course.
Even putting aside the fact that loads of US routes were always there, got upgraded when the interstates came, and then got kicked out and even made non-existent (US66, for example) - it's not like US41 is getting kicked out by I-41. As Flint1979 says:
I think the I-41 numbering is fine because it's considered highway 41 no matter if your refering to it as US 41 or I-41 it's the same thing
Of course, Flint1979 then goes on to make a silly point:
Quote
but routing it south of Milwaukee doesn't make any sense, the US 41 numbering is fine there since it splits from I-94 the first chance it gets after entering Illinois.
as it shouldn't make a difference north or south of the Zoo Interchange - if you are fine with US41 being I-41 north of there, why not south of there to where it stops being on an interstate highway? After all "it's considered highway 41 no matter if your refering to it as US 41 or I-41 it's the same thing".
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 17, 2017, 08:13:57 AM
Right, because what WIDOT is doing is "connecting" it with "Highway 41" just south of the Illinois border.  Was it necessary?  Probably not, but it certainly is understandable.

As a local, this entire renumbering has worked just fine.  What was known as "Highway 41" is now either still called that or "Interstate 41."  No one is confused with I-894 still being marked on the bypass. 

Roadgeeks are continuing to make a big deal out of something the locals have got used to months ago.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Henry on November 17, 2017, 08:51:40 AM
I-41 should just end at I-43, so there would be no switch.

Why was there no attempt at a compromise proposal that would extend I-57 but leave I-94 intact?  I can see why IL and MI wouldn't have gone along with the original proposal; while there is logic to the renumbering, to any state but WI, it would be a lot of money spent for "no good reason".

I've also read on here that they were considering extending I-55, which makes more sense, other than having to rename the portion of current I-55 from 90/94 to Lake Shore Drive to I-x55.
I believe Wisconsin wanted I-55 for the corridor initially.  Illinois didn't want to compromise.
No, it was definitely I-57, and you were right about both states' feelings on the proposal.

As for I-41 not being an I-x43, the former is a better fit because it offers a long-distance alternative to I-43. Make it into I-243 or any other number, and you'd have something as bad as I-476 from Philly to Scranton, if not worse. (BTW, I-476 should've been I-97!)
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: kphoger on November 17, 2017, 01:12:36 PM
So GPS works better behind the Cheddar Curtain?

Well, this is the post I landed on first today.  That was a weird one.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: dvferyance on November 17, 2017, 01:32:38 PM
What I would find way more confusing is eliminating 894. Then you would have a wrong way north south multiplex on an east and west route think about how crazy that would be. If you just look at a map it's very easy to know what is the best way from Chicago to the Fox cities. Then I could also make the case they should have duplexed I-65 up to Milwaukee with I-94 so that the truck drivers going from Indianapolis to Milwaukee would have one route to navigate with instead of going on multiple routes.. Where does it end?
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: abefroman329 on November 17, 2017, 05:19:52 PM
No, it was definitely I-57, and you were right about both states' feelings on the proposal.

So 57 would've been twinned with 94 all the way to Milwaukee?  The Dan Ryan north of the Skyway, and the Kennedy south of the Edens, would've been 90/94/57?
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: Brandon on November 17, 2017, 05:24:36 PM
No, it was definitely I-57, and you were right about both states' feelings on the proposal.

So 57 would've been twinned with 94 all the way to Milwaukee?  The Dan Ryan north of the Skyway, and the Kennedy south of the Edens, would've been 90/94/57?

Short answer: yes.  IDOT balked, and WisDOT wanted it.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: JREwing78 on November 17, 2017, 05:38:26 PM
Roadgeeks are continuing to make a big deal out of something the locals have got used to months ago.

That's pretty much it. As far as the locals know or care, it's still Highway 41. So it has a colorful shield instead of black-and-white one.

The ones who care about that sort of thing can look at the colorful shield and know right away what kind of highway it is. The ones who whine about the cost of that don't realize that kind of money is wasted by WisDOT on stupider things (or by the legislature jerking them around with funding). The rest of the users don't care and are just irritated that construction continues to drag on at the Zoo interchange.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: TheHighwayMan394 on November 17, 2017, 06:02:40 PM
I feel all the complaining about 41 and 894 are out of state geeks who don’t have a stake in it anyway. If they’d spent any significant time in Milwaukee the existing setup would make sense.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 17, 2017, 06:17:37 PM
I-41 should just end at I-43, so there would be no switch.

Why was there no attempt at a compromise proposal that would extend I-57 but leave I-94 intact?  I can see why IL and MI wouldn't have gone along with the original proposal; while there is logic to the renumbering, to any state but WI, it would be a lot of money spent for "no good reason".

I've also read on here that they were considering extending I-55, which makes more sense, other than having to rename the portion of current I-55 from 90/94 to Lake Shore Drive to I-x55.
I believe Wisconsin wanted I-55 for the corridor initially.  Illinois didn't want to compromise.
No, it was definitely I-57, and you were right about both states' feelings on the proposal.



Thank you for the correction.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 17, 2017, 06:17:53 PM
I feel all the complaining about 41 and 894 are out of state geeks who don’t have a stake in it anyway. If they’d spent any significant time in Milwaukee the existing setup would make sense.


Exactly!
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: SteveG1988 on November 17, 2017, 07:02:26 PM
Having it as an interstate doesn't harm anything at all. Yes it was money that could have been used for something else, but in the long run it does mean that Wisconsin is now stuck with keeping it an interstate grade road, that cannot be downgraded easily. The only reason we're having this problem is that we are all nerds who feel that it breaks the rules. Rule breaking is allowed as long as the ref lets it slide. The original interstate numbering system was a bit rigid, and back then having two major route numbers in a long distance system would be confusing. But now it isn't as bad. Interstate 41 does imply to a traveler that "hey...this road will be 65-70 mph to green bay and appleton" versus US41 that can imply "it is going to be a 45-55 mph road, two lane, and i am going to be stuck behind a truck in a no passing zone" US41 in Indiana. 60 mph road, except through towns, and when IN63 splits off with the thru traffic it turns into a two lane back road.

One could argue, why isn't I43 between I-90/39 and 94 a 3DI, I-339 or I-894. Why isn't I-57 I-55E. Stuff like that. the rules change, we have to live with them. E/W and N/S splits are technically no longer allowed, so we have to put up with odd numbering that would have been fixed with that. I-41 is I-43W. I-88 in IL could be I80N if it connected properly to 80 via 294.
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on November 18, 2017, 06:29:11 AM
I feel all the complaining about 41 and 894 are out of state geeks who don’t have a stake in it anyway. If they’d spent any significant time in Milwaukee the existing setup would make sense.

IDK, that seems pretty presumptuous. I think if I lived there, I'd continue to think the same, regardless, about I-894 at the very least: redundant.

But I suppose that's probably a bit off-topic. I've entered into similar arguments about designations that continue to exist because of "local familiarity." (See: the MN-110 to MN-62 thread.)
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: mrsman on November 23, 2017, 05:09:41 PM
I feel all the complaining about 41 and 894 are out of state geeks who don’t have a stake in it anyway. If they’d spent any significant time in Milwaukee the existing setup would make sense.

IDK, that seems pretty presumptuous. I think if I lived there, I'd continue to think the same, regardless, about I-894 at the very least: redundant.

But I suppose that's probably a bit off-topic. I've entered into similar arguments about designations that continue to exist because of "local familiarity." (See: the MN-110 to MN-62 thread.)

The key to a lot fo this is to make sure that the control cities make sense.

At the southwestern interchange:  I-43 south to Beloit, I-894 and I-41 north to Fond du Lac/Madison ,  I-894 east - I-41 south - I-43 north either Airport/Chicago (from I-41) or Airport/Downtown Milwaukee (from I-43)

At the airport interchange: I-94 east - I-41 south Airport/Chicago, I-94 west - I-43 north Downtown Milwaukee, I-41 north - I-43 south - I-894 west Beloit/Fond du Lac

At the zoo interchange: I-94 west Madison, I-894 south - I41 south Beloit/Chicago (and an airport logo), I-94 east Downtown Milwaukee, I-41 north Fond du Lac

At the Marquette interchange:  I-94 west Madison, I-43 north Green Bay, I-794 Lakefront, I-94 east- I-43 south Airport/Chicago
Title: Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
Post by: paulthemapguy on December 05, 2017, 01:01:20 PM
The I-41 designation is completely idiotic south of 894.  If the intention was to connect with US41 to the south, US41 would be a more suitable designation?  What's more similar and obvious than keeping the designations the same???  :-D :-D :-D  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I personally argue that US51 is the one who should have had an interstate designation with the same number, but that's probably for another thread. (I-41 should be I-53, and I-43 should be I-57 and I-139/351)