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Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: 02 Park Ave on February 08, 2018, 07:03:10 PM

Title: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on February 08, 2018, 07:03:10 PM
It may be a month or so early to start this thread but there is good news out of Brussels.

The EU is starting a study to determine whether DST should be continued.  There is a groundswell forming in northern European countries to end DST.  So the study will determine if any "benefits" of DST are worth its inconvenience and risks to health and safety.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on February 08, 2018, 07:09:40 PM
You seem to be anti-DST, but you don't give a reason. Can you explain? (I don't have an opinion either way.)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: KEVIN_224 on February 08, 2018, 07:15:25 PM
It starts here on March 11th. I feel it should go back to the schedule of early April/later October like it was until 2006. One other change I would make? Put Indianapolis on central time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on February 08, 2018, 10:28:08 PM
The second Sunday in March is too early, although I’ll acknowledge the practical benefit of the time change never falling on Easter Sunday (under the prior system, this year the clocks would have gone ahead on Easter). The older system prior to the mid-1980s  where they went ahead on the last Sunday in April was too late to start it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 08, 2018, 10:35:09 PM
I think we should end DST, moving the DST times forwards by half an hour, and non-DST times backwards by half an hour.
No time change, and it works out nicely to split the difference, giving us a bit more daylight on winter evenings and summer mornings.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: DaBigE on February 08, 2018, 11:25:55 PM
I think we should end DST, moving the DST times forwards by half an hour, and non-DST times backwards by half an hour.
No time change, and it works out nicely to split the difference, giving us a bit more daylight on winter evenings and summer mornings.

I've been promoting that very thought for years. With the exception that there has to be 100% compliance...no time zone "islands".
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on February 09, 2018, 12:34:58 AM
Oh man, the tenth biannual AARoads DST discussion!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US 89 on February 09, 2018, 12:48:46 AM
Oh man, the tenth biannual AARoads DST discussion!

You should hear the Utah Legislature. Every single year there is a proposal to eliminate it, and every year it gets shot down in committee.

I’m all for DST myself, but it begins too early in the year and ends too late, IMO.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on February 09, 2018, 03:36:22 AM
I think we should end DST, moving the DST times forwards by half an hour, and non-DST times backwards by half an hour.
No time change, and it works out nicely to split the difference, giving us a bit more daylight on winter evenings and summer mornings.

I've been promoting that very thought for years. With the exception that there has to be 100% compliance...no time zone "islands".

I must be understanding this incorrectly.

Wouldn't moving the non-DST times back by half an hour permanently make it so, for example, the west coast was always GMT-07:30? That seems rather messy.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: ZLoth on February 09, 2018, 03:48:51 AM
The cost-benefit ratio for jumping back and fourth one hour each year isn't there. The energy saving is miniscule, there is an increase in accidents around the time switch, etc, etc
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 09, 2018, 08:36:06 AM
It may be a month or so early to start this thread but there is good news out of Brussels.

The EU is starting a study to determine whether DST should be continued.  There is a groundswell forming in northern European countries to end DST.  So the study will determine if any "benefits" of DST are worth its inconvenience and risks to health and safety.

Yup, they are questioning the use of DST (which in Europe runs from late March to late October, sightly shorter than in the USA, it used to be the other way round). Anyway I believe Spain should move out of permanent DST, I always think elsewhere the sun sets too early when actually it sets too late here. But this should be accompanied by all schedules moving forward one hour, as we adapted them to our f*cked up time zone.

Anyway, I decided to spicy up my forum time, so I moved out of Eastern and sync with Big Rig Steve, so I'll be anywhere from Eastern to Pacific now. However I retain Euro DST instead of switching to American one, thus for most of March my forum time will be one hour behind his local time, so if he goes to the West Coast I'll be setting my time to Alaska :sombrero:.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 09, 2018, 08:42:39 AM
I think we should end DST, moving the DST times forwards by half an hour, and non-DST times backwards by half an hour.
No time change, and it works out nicely to split the difference, giving us a bit more daylight on winter evenings and summer mornings.

I've been promoting that very thought for years. With the exception that there has to be 100% compliance...no time zone "islands".

I must be understanding this incorrectly.

Wouldn't moving the non-DST times back by half an hour permanently make it so, for example, the west coast was always GMT-07:30? That seems rather messy.

Yes, but if it applied around the globe, GMT -07:30 would actually become GMT -08:00. Even if it didn't, I don't see a problem with a permanent -07:30. It's not like there's a frequent need to relate local time to an arbitrary base time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on February 09, 2018, 08:44:14 AM
1) DST lasts too long.  End of March to end of September is fine.

2) DST is really bad in areas that are already one time zone farther east than they belong.  A lot of areas are already 45+ minutes ahead of their natural time and adding another hour really distorts the day.  Those areas really need to either ditch DST or move to the correct time zone.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 09, 2018, 08:53:46 AM
1) DST lasts too long.  End of March to end of September is fine.
In March and October, I'd much rather the sunlight in the evening than the morning.

Quote
2) DST is really bad in areas that are already one time zone farther east than they belong.  A lot of areas are already 45+ minutes ahead of their natural time and adding another hour really distorts the day.  Those areas really need to either ditch DST or move to the correct time zone.
Indiana is without a doubt the most controversial state in the US when it comes to this. If they go back to CST, the sun would set at like 4 pm or earlier in the winter. Staying on EST, the sun doesn't set until close to 10 pm in the summer. There's no win-win situation for Indiana that I can think of.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 09, 2018, 08:58:55 AM
The relative locations of the time zones to where they "should" be. (https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/#!cities=1440) (for whatever it's worth)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: inkyatari on February 09, 2018, 09:31:47 AM
I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Chris on February 09, 2018, 11:10:33 AM
I'm not opposed to staying on the same time the entire year, but speaking for a country on a latitude like Netherlands and Germany, moving permanently into summer time would be more beneficial than staying in winter time all year. The longer daylight in the evening allows for many outdoor activities after dinner.

School vacations also do not coincide with the summer solstice, but are later in summer, from mid-July to late August or early September. That means that by late August, the sun would set around 7:30 p.m. if on winter time the entire year, which would be really detrimental for events and other outdoor activities associated with the warm summer evenings.

I think it would also seriously impact late summer vacations in September if it would be dark by 7 p.m. Many people who do not have school-aged children go on vacation in the late summer / low season in the first half of September. I usually go on vacation during that time and the early darkness and chilly temperatures after sunset are already inhibiting activities in the evening, not to mention if it would be shortened by another hour.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on February 09, 2018, 11:27:59 AM
1) DST lasts too long.  End of March to end of September is fine.
In March and October, I'd much rather the sunlight in the evening than the morning.

Quote
2) DST is really bad in areas that are already one time zone farther east than they belong.  A lot of areas are already 45+ minutes ahead of their natural time and adding another hour really distorts the day.  Those areas really need to either ditch DST or move to the correct time zone.
Indiana is without a doubt the most controversial state in the US when it comes to this. If they go back to CST, the sun would set at like 4 pm or earlier in the winter. Staying on EST, the sun doesn't set until close to 10 pm in the summer. There's no win-win situation for Indiana that I can think of.

So split the state in half like Tennessee; the western half goes on CT and the eastern half goes on ET.  Or bring back the little cutout in Northwest IN that was CT.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on February 09, 2018, 12:47:32 PM
Another stupid European idea.

I myself am glad that DST starts earlier, but really wish it would be extended year-round. It really stinks to leave work and it be dark. I prefer my daylight in the evenings, thank you very much.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on February 09, 2018, 12:50:57 PM
1) DST lasts too long.  End of March to end of September is fine.
In March and October, I'd much rather the sunlight in the evening than the morning.

Quote
2) DST is really bad in areas that are already one time zone farther east than they belong.  A lot of areas are already 45+ minutes ahead of their natural time and adding another hour really distorts the day.  Those areas really need to either ditch DST or move to the correct time zone.
Indiana is without a doubt the most controversial state in the US when it comes to this. If they go back to CST, the sun would set at like 4 pm or earlier in the winter. Staying on EST, the sun doesn't set until close to 10 pm in the summer. There's no win-win situation for Indiana that I can think of.

Well, there is EST with no DST, that avoids both the 4pm sunsets in the winter and the 10pm sunsets in the summer. 

However, I lived in the EST part of Indiana for most of my life and just moved to the CST part, and I like it much better.  I don't mind the early winter sunsets, and I like that the sunrise isn't so ridiculously late.  I also really like TV shows starting an hour earlier. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on February 09, 2018, 12:51:57 PM
Have I mentioned lately how much I hate Central Time?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: inkyatari on February 09, 2018, 12:58:14 PM
Have I mentioned lately how much I hate Central Time?

You mean Normal Time?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on February 09, 2018, 12:58:56 PM
Have I mentioned lately how much I hate Central Time?
Yes, and Eastern is even worse! and I don't even want to mention pacific...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Life in Paradise on February 09, 2018, 01:04:17 PM
1) DST lasts too long.  End of March to end of September is fine.
In March and October, I'd much rather the sunlight in the evening than the morning.

Quote
2) DST is really bad in areas that are already one time zone farther east than they belong.  A lot of areas are already 45+ minutes ahead of their natural time and adding another hour really distorts the day.  Those areas really need to either ditch DST or move to the correct time zone.
Indiana is without a doubt the most controversial state in the US when it comes to this. If they go back to CST, the sun would set at like 4 pm or earlier in the winter. Staying on EST, the sun doesn't set until close to 10 pm in the summer. There's no win-win situation for Indiana that I can think of.
I live in the Central Time Zone part of Indiana (SW).  I used to think that they were crazy trying to go to eastern time, but the older I get, the more I like to have the sun set later.  I was glad to see the DST extended to early Nov and early March.  I despise the sun setting at 4:30 in December.  Don't mind getting up and starting work in the dark, but I had finishing it in the dark.  Also appear to have that light sensitivity that I get grumpy when with lesser sunlight.  (Perhaps I need to move further south)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Eth on February 09, 2018, 01:23:22 PM
Yes, but if it applied around the globe, GMT -07:30 would actually become GMT -08:00. Even if it didn't, I don't see a problem with a permanent -07:30. It's not like there's a frequent need to relate local time to an arbitrary base time.

My day job very, very strongly disagrees with you on that. Converting database and server log timestamps from UTC to Eastern (for me) and Central (for my boss) is messy enough already without throwing a half-hour offset in there.

Anyway, I'd support pushing the beginning of DST back to around the time it used to be. Currently, when DST kicks in, it's already reaching the point where it's light until about 7pm anyway here. Making it light until 8pm is nice, sure, but is outweighed by shifting sunrise back to almost 8am and making it hell to wake up in the morning.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on February 09, 2018, 02:01:49 PM
I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

You'd think it'd be simpler to just shift your hours earlier to make this possible, rather than requiring everyone to change their clocks.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on February 09, 2018, 02:06:42 PM
I live in the Central Time Zone part of Indiana (SW).  I used to think that they were crazy trying to go to eastern time, but the older I get, the more I like to have the sun set later.  I was glad to see the DST extended to early Nov and early March.  I despise the sun setting at 4:30 in December.  Don't mind getting up and starting work in the dark, but I had finishing it in the dark.  Also appear to have that light sensitivity that I get grumpy when with lesser sunlight.  (Perhaps I need to move further south)
I've found that I'm going the opposite: the older I get, the more I prefer morning daylight.  This is probably because my circadian rhythm is naturally that of a night owl, and unlike college, the working world does not afford me the luxury of sleeping according to my natural cycle (or anything remotely resembling it; if I had my way, I'd sleep 2 or 3-11; instead, I'm forced to try to make 10 or 11-6 work).  Having it dark when I'm getting ready only makes me slower and more groggy than I already would by by virtue of the hour being before noon.  Around here, the latest sunrise is around 7:30, which means my entire commute would be before sunrise if we adopted permanent DST.  I can only imagine how much worst it is in the more western parts of the time zone (even the 15 minute offset between Albany and Rochester throws me sometimes when I travel).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on February 09, 2018, 03:07:43 PM
Another stupid European idea.

I myself am glad that DST starts earlier, but really wish it would be extended year-round. It really stinks to leave work and it be dark. I prefer my daylight in the evenings, thank you very much.

My problem with year-round DST is that it would be dark in both the morning and the evening, at least here in the DC area. On the winter solstice this year, sunrise here will be at 7:23 and sunset at 16:49. So it’s mostly dark when you get up and it gets light during the commute. It’s dark when you leave work. Push those times an hour later and it’s still dark when you get up, it’s darker during the morning commute, it’s pretty dark when you leave work and it gets dark during the evening commute, and it’s dark by the time you get home. I don’t see the benefit. It’s already hard enough to get up in the morning during the winter without making it darker.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on February 09, 2018, 03:29:49 PM
I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

You'd think it'd be simpler to just shift your hours earlier to make this possible, rather than requiring everyone to change their clocks.

But how many people are in the same situation? Really, the whole point of DST was to make light levels more appropriate for certain times of year.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on February 09, 2018, 03:31:22 PM
I'm not opposed to staying on the same time the entire year, but speaking for a country on a latitude ike Netherlands and Germany, moving permanently into summer time would be more beneficial than staying in winter time all year.
The Netherlands is already on year-round DST, with double DST in the Summer. OK, it's near the eastern edge of WET and was +00:20 before the invasion, so its not as extreme as France's change and definitely not Spain's.

What is odd is how, when Spain overthrew Franco, they then took about 20 years to go "why are we still on Berlin time which we only did out of our leader's solidarity with the Nazi cause? Do we want to stay on CET or move to WET?". Of course, they didn't particularly shift their days, just the numbers on the clock - so if they got up at 6am before the change, they got up at 7am instead - thus they didn't really start pretending to be an hour (or more) west of where they are in their lifestyles until they started having to get up an hour earlier so that their office hours in Barcelona are the same as those of offices in Brussels and Bonn.

As for northerly latitudes, when the UK Parliament last discussed the idea of moving to CET, Scotland demanded an exemption from even trialling it, and one MP demanded Somerset would be moved back to GMT -00:15, as it was pre-railway (though the latter was a motion to tank the bill). When the UK trialled CET ('Double Summer Time') in the 70s, MPs from Ipswich (about as close as one can get to Amsterdam in the UK) were as vocal about not continuing it as those from Inverness. It was overwhelmingly opposed continuing the trial - none of the promised energy and leisure/tourism benefits came about in a tangible way and more statistically significant (but still not definitive either way) were the rise in vehicle accidents, depression cases and suicides.
Quote
The longer daylight in the evening allows for many outdoor activities after dinner.
<snip>
I think it would also seriously impact late summer vacations in September if it would be dark by 7 p.m. Many people who do not have school-aged children go on vacation in the late summer / low season in the first half of September. I usually go on vacation during that time and the early darkness and chilly temperatures after sunset are already inhibiting activities in the evening, not to mention if it would be shortened by another hour.
7pm or 8pm doesn't make much difference - there's no light left after dinner (especially on vacation where you aren't just wolfing down stuff for sustenance) either way! If you want to do something after dinner, eat with the old people at 5! Or just do that something before it gets dark and eat afterwards! Or just vacation the other side of the school holidays - in June, not September...

And 'dark by 7' in early September is a reason to not drop DST, but definitely not a reason to move to St Petersburg time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on February 09, 2018, 03:59:01 PM
Another stupid European idea.

I myself am glad that DST starts earlier, but really wish it would be extended year-round. It really stinks to leave work and it be dark. I prefer my daylight in the evenings, thank you very much.

My problem with year-round DST is that it would be dark in both the morning and the evening, at least here in the DC area. On the winter solstice this year, sunrise here will be at 7:23 and sunset at 16:49. So it’s mostly dark when you get up and it gets light during the commute. It’s dark when you leave work. Push those times an hour later and it’s still dark when you get up, it’s darker during the morning commute, it’s pretty dark when you leave work and it gets dark during the evening commute, and it’s dark by the time you get home. I don’t see the benefit. It’s already hard enough to get up in the morning during the winter without making it darker.
Since  local sunrise and sunset vary by an hour within the time zone, it is pretty safe to assume that for anyone saying "I want have sun during commute/when I wake up/leave work" there will be someone who would answer "I already have (one of other conditions), and I don't want to loose it!"
And things get worse as you move north...
So it is pretty difficult to find solution which would fit everyone, DST or not...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on February 09, 2018, 04:04:34 PM
I like DST in the summer and standard time in the winter.  It puts the extra light in the summer in the evening when there are more interesting things to do with it.  However, I wish the US shifted to and from DST at the same time the EU does, both because they're more reasonable dates and for the simplicity of the time difference being the same year-round.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on February 09, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

You'd think it'd be simpler to just shift your hours earlier to make this possible, rather than requiring everyone to change their clocks.

But how many people are in the same situation? Really, the whole point of DST was to make light levels more appropriate for certain times of year.

I think of it more in terms of: we've rescheduled sunrise and sunset to correspond to some notion of when on the clock certain things should occur. 

Once upon a time, when lighting was a major part of our energy consumption, this had the advantage of conservation.  However, now that we have more electronic gizmos which remain on continuously, the advantage is lost.

Modern society is not as wedded to the notion of "9 to 5" business hours as we once were, for various reasons. Various schemes like staggered start/stop hours, flex time, and telework are all being promoted partly for work-life balance, and partly for energy conservation and to address capacity constraints of urban infrastructure. 

So, if there's a desire to have an extra hour of daylight at the end of the day, perhaps it would be less disruptive for the folks with such a desire to simply get up and go to work an hour earlier, to achieve the same result.  Similarly, for those who complain about the possibility of students walking to school in the dark in the mornings, perhaps local school start times should be shifted to account for that consideration.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on February 09, 2018, 04:16:26 PM
How realistic is the “go to work at a different time” option for most people, though? Many white-collar office workers may be able to do that, though many of them also aren’t limited to a 40-hour work week and might wind up going in earlier but not leaving much earlier. But many blue-collar or retail workers have no control over their work hours short of changing jobs (often easier said than done).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on February 09, 2018, 04:26:20 PM
How realistic is the “go to work at a different time” option for most people, though? Many white-collar office workers may be able to do that, though many of them also aren’t limited to a 40-hour work week and might wind up going in earlier but not leaving much earlier. But many blue-collar or retail workers have no control over their work hours short of changing jobs (often easier said than done).

If there's enough demand for working hours to be altered, they will be altered.  Especially during periods of time (such as now) when there's more demand for labor than not.  It may be the case that the working hours would be altered for "everybody" at the company, rather than the randomness that can be sometimes tolerated in white collar environments, but the net effect would be the same.

Also, don't most retail workers today already have somewhat irregular hours?  I'd think that the only large group of workers who are probably stuck are workers at 3-shift factories (not many of those these days) and farm workers (who tend to work on solar time regardless of whether DST is or isn't in effect).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on February 09, 2018, 04:37:21 PM
A lot of retail workers are expected to show up at opening time, not an hour early and certainly not an hour later.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 09, 2018, 05:18:04 PM
Living in a relatively northern area of the country myself, I'm interested in how many others here ever have to commute in the dark, and when?

Here, a standard 8-to-5 job would involve the following commutes in the dark:
Morning: mid to late October (until DST ends), and again mid December to late January, and again very briefly in March when DST starts
Afternoon: beginning of DST in November, until mid January

Once February hits, there's enough light at both ends of the day to encompass all the peak hours.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on February 09, 2018, 05:42:59 PM
My afternoon at this particular time of year begins with the sun still up (5:30), but it’s dark by the time I get home (and indeed by the time the subway emerges from the tunnel at the airport about halfway home).

(Looking outside now, it’s not pitch black, but it’s dark at 6:00.)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on February 09, 2018, 06:16:03 PM
Living in a relatively northern area of the country myself, I'm interested in how many others here ever have to commute in the dark, and when?

Here, a standard 8-to-5 job would involve the following commutes in the dark:
Morning: mid to late October (until DST ends), and again mid December to late January, and again very briefly in March when DST starts
Afternoon: beginning of DST in November, until mid January

Once February hits, there's enough light at both ends of the day to encompass all the peak hours.

Most days my commute is about 5 feet.  Whether I do it in the dark or not depends on when I get up, and whether I bother to turn on the light to cross the room.  :D

Once a month, my commute is roughly 5 hours long (depending on traffic queues at the border and bridge traffic).  Some night driving is generally involved.

I'll concede that my arrangement is not normal.  :)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on February 10, 2018, 01:57:25 PM
Why don't we just cancel the dark?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on February 10, 2018, 02:04:19 PM
Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If it's constantly light, the temperature will be significantly higher than it is now.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on February 10, 2018, 02:30:52 PM
Then the obvious solution is to cancel time instead.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 10, 2018, 03:45:17 PM
Now with all the technology avalaible I'd just cancel time zones and stick to local mean time. UTC would be retained for synchronizing purposes.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on February 10, 2018, 04:29:08 PM
Now with all the technology avalaible I'd just cancel time zones and stick to local mean time. UTC would be retained for synchronizing purposes.
no way. synchronizing simple business interactions - like meeting (and long distance conference call!) times, appointments etc. It is already bad the way it is.
If anything, same time across the  globe may be an easier one. Would you actually care that you have to get to work at 2 AM (2.00), if sun goes up at 11.30 PM (23.30)? scheduling dates may be an issue.
Once upon a time I've seen someone show up for 00.10 departure - only to find out that their ticket was for 00.10 the day before... Yep, date starts at midnight....
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 10, 2018, 05:47:05 PM
Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If you migrated between the North and South poles, you could do it for about half the year. The other half would be interesting. Perhaps you could keep taking flights to the west and it would work for a while.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on February 10, 2018, 05:50:05 PM
Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If you migrated between the North and South poles, you could do it for about half the year. The other half would be interesting. Perhaps you could keep taking flights to the west and it would work for a while.

Actually, you get half just by staying at one pole. If you migrate between them, it will be light the entire time except when traveling from one to the other.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 10, 2018, 05:59:38 PM
^ Do you mean there is never a day at the poles that has both light and darkness?  :hmmm:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on February 10, 2018, 06:03:09 PM
^ Do you mean there is never a day at the poles that has both light and darkness?  :hmmm:

It's light for six months, then dark for six months, then repeat.

Near the boundaries of light/darkness, the Sun will be circling on the horizon for a few days, meaning it will be mostly but not completely light (the same way that it is mostly light just as the Sun is rising or setting where you are).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 10, 2018, 06:11:26 PM
^ Do you mean there is never a day at the poles that has both light and darkness?  :hmmm:

It's light for six months, then dark for six months, then repeat.

Near the boundaries of light/darkness, the Sun will be circling on the horizon for a few days, meaning it will be mostly but not completely light (the same way that it is mostly light just as the Sun is rising or setting where you are).

I did a Google search in the interim and realized exactly that. That's extremely awesome, and I can't believe I didn't know that. That's good news for Scott5114, as long as he's OK with the cold, and a bit of darkness while he's in transit  :-D
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on February 12, 2018, 02:10:08 AM
I do think canceling time would be quite a bit easier. That way my work schedule could be "when I damn well feel like showing up" to "when I'm sick of being here".
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 12, 2018, 09:22:44 AM
Well, then we should cancel space as well. With no universe left, we could explode a new big bang and model that new universe to our likenesses.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 12, 2018, 12:06:49 PM
I do think canceling time would be quite a bit easier. That way my work schedule could be "when I damn well feel like showing up" to "when I'm sick of being here".

In some cases, that translates to "never"  :D
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: doorknob60 on February 12, 2018, 03:14:01 PM
I like DST in the summer and standard time in the winter.  It puts the extra light in the summer in the evening when there are more interesting things to do with it.  However, I wish the US shifted to and from DST at the same time the EU does, both because they're more reasonable dates and for the simplicity of the time difference being the same year-round.

I agree with every word you just said. I really like DST. Going to standard time year round would suck here. Going to summer time year round is not realistic for multiple reasons. DST is the best compromise. But I do think the somewhat recently expanded DST dates in the US take it too far, it was a bit more sensible before.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: SectorZ on February 12, 2018, 04:02:32 PM
Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If it's constantly light, the temperature will be significantly higher than it is now.

Yup, Antarctica and the Arctic become quite tropical in their summers.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on February 12, 2018, 04:12:07 PM
Why don't we just cancel the dark?

If it's constantly light, the temperature will be significantly higher than it is now.

Yup, Antarctica and the Arctic become quite tropical in their summers.
Sun is quite low above horizon, 23 degrees if I remember correctly. So irradiation in not very high...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 12, 2018, 05:08:28 PM
I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

And I want more light in the morning so I can start my work safely.

The problem with the daylight savings time conversation is, it always comes down to a stalemate between people who have one dislike and people with another.  If we all just realized there's no solution to please everybody, we could skip a lot of this.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 12, 2018, 08:17:08 PM
I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

And I want more light in the morning so I can start my work safely.

The problem with the daylight savings time conversation is, it always comes down to a stalemate between people who have one dislike and people with another.  If we all just realized there's no solution to please everybody, we could skip a lot of this.

We might as well do what pleases the most people possible. Many people prefer the extra hour of light in the evening - it goes without saying that there's a lot more activity after standard working hours than before.

Also, the variation between time zones can be well over an hour - in Indianapolis they could go off of DST and still have a later sunset than Boston. If the time zones were actually lined up properly, it would solve a number of the issues, including Indiana.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 12, 2018, 11:01:56 PM
I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

And I want more light in the morning so I can start my work safely.

The problem with the daylight savings time conversation is, it always comes down to a stalemate between people who have one dislike and people with another.  If we all just realized there's no solution to please everybody, we could skip a lot of this.

We might as well do what pleases the most people possible. Many people prefer the extra hour of light in the evening - it goes without saying that there's a lot more activity after standard working hours than before.

Also, the variation between time zones can be well over an hour - in Indianapolis they could go off of DST and still have a later sunset than Boston. If the time zones were actually lined up properly, it would solve a number of the issues, including Indiana.

Then we need to have a national poll on what people want, I guess.  Except that nobody believes polls anymore.

People in the east will lose it if you try to make their sunrise 8:30 a.m., no matter what they say now.  If you think people don't like getting home in the dark, wait until the majority gets to join those of us that go to work in the dark.  The behavior and skill of half-awake motorists in the daylight is abysmal enough.

Less trouble arises out of leaving this alone than attempting to fix it. After decades of watching this conversation play out that is the one thing I feel fairly certain about it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 13, 2018, 08:25:17 AM
People in the east will lose it if you try to make their sunrise 8:30 a.m., no matter what they say now.  If you think people don't like getting home in the dark, wait until the majority gets to join those of us that go to work in the dark.  The behavior and skill of half-awake motorists in the daylight is abysmal enough.

Less trouble arises out of leaving this alone than attempting to fix it. After decades of watching this conversation play out that is the one thing I feel fairly certain about it.

If you live in the eastern part of a time zone and still travel to work in the dark, that is far from an average case.

I don't disagree that attempting a fix would be complicated, I'm just saying it is possible to please a larger portion of the population - by aligning the time zones properly and having a year-round time that is halfway between DST and standard time.
Title: DST (2018)
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 13, 2018, 08:51:00 AM
People in the east will lose it if you try to make their sunrise 8:30 a.m., no matter what they say now.  If you think people don't like getting home in the dark, wait until the majority gets to join those of us that go to work in the dark.  The behavior and skill of half-awake motorists in the daylight is abysmal enough.

Less trouble arises out of leaving this alone than attempting to fix it. After decades of watching this conversation play out that is the one thing I feel fairly certain about it.

If you live in the eastern part of a time zone and still travel to work in the dark, that is far from an average case.

I don't disagree that attempting a fix would be complicated, I'm just saying it is possible to please a larger portion of the population - by aligning the time zones properly and having a year-round time that is halfway between DST and standard time.

Currently I do. Most people don't. I'm saying if we adjusted to give people an extra hour of light in the afternoon, most people would be going to work in the dark.  And then you would have an uproar in a voting bloc of 50,000,000 people.  Politicians don't want to go meddling around to piss off any large part   of that many people.  In the end, that's all that really is going to make the determination.

And yes, it is theoretically possible, but when you think of all the constituencies that would be upended along the way, I just don't see it happening. It's a "devil you know" situation.  Moreover, in today's political climate, Congress can't get anything done anyway.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on February 13, 2018, 09:06:09 AM
People in the east will lose it if you try to make their sunrise 8:30 a.m., no matter what they say now.  If you think people don't like getting home in the dark, wait until the majority gets to join those of us that go to work in the dark.  The behavior and skill of half-awake motorists in the daylight is abysmal enough.

Less trouble arises out of leaving this alone than attempting to fix it. After decades of watching this conversation play out that is the one thing I feel fairly certain about it.

If you live in the eastern part of a time zone and still travel to work in the dark, that is far from an average case.

I don't disagree that attempting a fix would be complicated, I'm just saying it is possible to please a larger portion of the population - by aligning the time zones properly and having a year-round time that is halfway between DST and standard time.

Currently I do. Most people don't. I'm saying if we adjusted to give people an extra hour of light in the afternoon, most people would be going to work in the dark.  And then you would have an uproar in a voting bloc of 50,000,000 people.  Politicians don't want to go meddling around to piss off any large part   of that many people.  In the end, that's all that really is going to make the determination.

And yes, it is theoretically possible, but when you think of all the constituencies that would be upended along the way, I just don't see it happening. It's a "devil you know" situation.  Moreover, in today's political climate, Congress can't get anything done anyway.

Guys, I really enjoy your conversation. I'm not sure if you realize that or not - but while you both live in the same timezone, sunrise and sunset are 30 minutes earlier for Pete than for webny. Looks like that gives you somewhat different view on what is good and what is bad...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 13, 2018, 09:17:04 AM
Guys, I really enjoy your conversation. I'm not sure if you realize that or not - but while you both live in the same timezone, sunrise and sunset are 30 minutes earlier for Pete than for webny. Looks like that gives you somewhat different view on what is good and what is bad...

I am definitely aware of that - I posted this above:
Also, the variation between time zones can be well over an hour - in Indianapolis they could go off of DST and still have a later sunset than Boston. If the time zones were actually lined up properly, it would solve a number of the issues, including Indiana.

I guess those from Boston (and the East Coast in general) have an early sunset anyways. So a loss of morning light would be more noticed. Whereas in Indiana, it's the loss of evening light that would be more noticed, since their mornings are already so dark.

Rochester's position near the center of the time zone gives me very little to complain about, really. I'd find both Indy and Boston challenging to adapt to in the winter - so I'm just tossing ideas around more than complaining that I'm hard done by.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on February 13, 2018, 09:25:28 AM
I just want more light when I get home from work so I can ride my bicycle safely.

And I want more light in the morning so I can start my work safely.

The problem with the daylight savings time conversation is, it always comes down to a stalemate between people who have one dislike and people with another.  If we all just realized there's no solution to please everybody, we could skip a lot of this.

I prefer sunrise NLT 7:00, but I understand that at a northern latitude, that makes for a very early sunset for a couple months and that others don't like that.  There just isn't enough sun in the winter for everyone to have it light when they would prefer.

As I stated earlier, my biggest problem is places (like most of Inidana) where DST is piled on top of already being one time zone too far east.  That makes for very distorted days, especially in March and October.  Growing up I was in the part of Indiana where it was Eastern but didn't do DST and that was OK, for the last 12 years I lived in the part of Indiana where it was Eastern and did do DST and absolutely hated it, and recently moved to a part of Indiana that is in Central and does DST and that's OK.  I do think DST should start at least a week later.  As it stands now, sunrise/sunset for my location on the first day of DST is 7:08/6:52 and I'd rather see it wait until it doesn't push sunrise past 7:00.  Same with having it end in early-mid October instead of November.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on February 13, 2018, 02:54:54 PM
Some of you might enjoy this web site:

https://www.timeanddate.com/

Under "sun calculator" it shows sunrise and sunset times for every date at a location you chose.

However cloud patterns matter too.  If it's clear you can have a pretty bright twilight for an hour before sunrise or after sunset, but if it's a typical Seattle day in the winter and we have 100% overcast with thick clouds and drizzle, it'll still seem dark when the sun is above the horizon.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on February 13, 2018, 03:14:21 PM
However cloud patterns matter too.  If it's clear you can have a pretty bright twilight for an hour before sunrise or after sunset, but if it's a typical Seattle day in the winter and we have 100% overcast with thick clouds and drizzle, it'll still seem dark when the sun is above the horizon.
Also works the other way (usually in summer) with white clouds being able to reflect the sun below the horizon and make the light stay longer.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 13, 2018, 04:58:11 PM
Anyway, I decided to spicy up my forum time, so I moved out of Eastern and sync with Big Rig Steve, so I'll be anywhere from Eastern to Pacific now. However I retain Euro DST instead of switching to American one, thus for most of March my forum time will be one hour behind his local time, so if he goes to the West Coast I'll be setting my time to Alaska :sombrero:.

Due to this, this morning (afternoon Central Europe) I changed my forum time from Central to Mountain time :sombrero:. When his current trip reaches its destination we'll be in Pacific time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on February 13, 2018, 06:15:33 PM
I wonder what percentage of the populace actually works banker's hours these days. Among my generation, I don't know anyone who actually goes into work in the morning—about the earliest schedule I know of that someone works is a business owner that goes in at 11am sometimes. My wife and I both go to work at 2:30pm, and I have a lot of friends with start times at 4:30pm. Quitting time is anywhere between 11pm and 1am.

None of us have Saturday or Sunday off. The big social day is Tuesday.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on February 13, 2018, 07:43:14 PM
I work 8:30-5:30, M-F.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 13, 2018, 07:51:00 PM
I work 8:30-5:30, M-F.

Pretty standard. But going back to my earlier question, how often is it dark on your commute?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 13, 2018, 08:03:41 PM
I wonder what percentage of the populace actually works banker's hours these days. Among my generation, I don't know anyone who actually goes into work in the morning—about the earliest schedule I know of that someone works is a business owner that goes in at 11am sometimes. My wife and I both go to work at 2:30pm, and I have a lot of friends with start times at 4:30pm. Quitting time is anywhere between 11pm and 1am.

There's definitely plenty of people I know in your age group working standard hours. I'll spare the specifics and demographic details, and just say I personally know about 15-20 people in their late 20's who have a fairly regular work schedule - starting anywhere from 6 to 8 am and ending anywhere from 4 to 6 pm.

Maybe I'm just naive, but it seems like working hours and rush hours haven't done a whole lot of shifting around here, even as new age groups enter the workforce. There's only so many jobs that have hours like those you refer to.

To respond directly to your wonderment, I'd reckon around 70%, if not more, of the (full time) working population is at work between 9 and 3.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on February 13, 2018, 08:18:01 PM
I wonder what percentage of the populace actually works banker's hours these days. Among my generation, I don't know anyone who actually goes into work in the morning—about the earliest schedule I know of that someone works is a business owner that goes in at 11am sometimes. My wife and I both go to work at 2:30pm, and I have a lot of friends with start times at 4:30pm. Quitting time is anywhere between 11pm and 1am.

None of us have Saturday or Sunday off. The big social day is Tuesday.
I work 8:30 to 4:30.  The other major start times at NYSDOT are 8 and 7:30, though some come in at 7 or earlier (usually because they work a compressed work week), with the occasional person coming in at 9.

At my previous job, I usually came in around 9-9:30, though most people started closer to 10 (I had flex time at that one, though "core hours" were 10-3).  My internship (different company), in contrast, was 8 to 5.

I don't think I've ever had a job other than college work study that wasn't standard office hours Monday to Friday.

As for how dark it is, it isn't on the commute (though it would be if we were on permanent DST... latest sunrise here is 7:30), but it definitely is at 6 the majority of the year when I have to get up.  Since I'm a natural night owl, that makes it quite hard to get out of bed and it seems to get harder every year.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Eth on February 13, 2018, 08:57:47 PM
I wonder what percentage of the populace actually works banker's hours these days. Among my generation, I don't know anyone who actually goes into work in the morning—about the earliest schedule I know of that someone works is a business owner that goes in at 11am sometimes. My wife and I both go to work at 2:30pm, and I have a lot of friends with start times at 4:30pm. Quitting time is anywhere between 11pm and 1am.

None of us have Saturday or Sunday off. The big social day is Tuesday.

I have the pretty standard 8-5 Monday-Friday, similar to most people I know, though darkness on my commute isn't an issue at all because I work from home three days a week and on the days I do go in to the office (Tuesday/Thursday) I'm only actually there from 10-3 (I start and end the day at home).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on February 14, 2018, 02:29:57 AM
If I'm working the early shift at my hotel, I have to be clocking in around 0445. This is usually after having one day off, after having worked until midnight the prior evening. Needless to say, I never get much sleep before that shift.

My friend's father works for Sysco as a truck driver. He's out the door about 0200. I have no idea how he does it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on February 14, 2018, 01:56:31 PM
I work 8:30-5:30, M-F.

Pretty standard. But going back to my earlier question, how often is it dark on your commute?

Well, like I posted above, how dark it is depends on both sunrise and sunset times and how heavy the cloud cover is.  But it's dark for the morning commute roughly late November to mid-January, and dark for the evening commute from the end of DST in early November until mid-February.

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: KEVIN_224 on February 14, 2018, 03:29:34 PM
It'll be the exact middle of February at midnight (ALREADY!). Sunrise and sunset for Hartford, CT today is 6:48 AM and 5:23 PM. The day is 10 hours 35 minutes long. Our sunset was as early as about 4:19 or 4:20 PM a couple days before the winter solstice. I feel DST should go back to early April to mid-October where it was through 2006. I still feel Indianapolis should be on central time. I definitely thought it was jarring when I visited that city in August of 2010. They're nearly exactly as far west as Nashville is (and the Music City is indeed central time).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on February 14, 2018, 07:41:11 PM
I work 8:30-5:30, M-F.

Pretty standard. But going back to my earlier question, how often is it dark on your commute?

Well, like I posted above, how dark it is depends on both sunrise and sunset times and how heavy the cloud cover is.  But it's dark for the morning commute roughly late November to mid-January, and dark for the evening commute from the end of DST in early November until mid-February.

What about October and March, near the bounds of DST? Several weeks during those time frames when mornings are pretty dark.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 15, 2018, 01:12:41 AM
7:30 to 3:30, and these are both very busy hours on local roads.  Not as busy as 8:30 (9 is actually post-peak) or 5, but no joke.  3-3:30 is in the thick of school traffic, too.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Alex on February 18, 2018, 08:54:01 AM
The Florida legislature is pushing forward with a bill to move the entire state to DST all year long:

Florida House approves push for Daylight Saving Time (http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15florida-house-approves-push-daylight-saving-time/340178002/)

Quote
The Florida House on Wednesday overwhelmingly approved a proposal aimed at observing daylight-saving time year-round in the state. House members voted 103-11 to support the measure (HB 1013), filed by Rep. Jeanette Nunez, R-Miami, and Rep. Heather Fitzenhagen, R-Fort Myers.

Fitzenhagen said moving to daylight-saving time could help the tourism industry, as people would be able to stay out later in the sunlight. A similar bill (SB 858) also is moving through the Senate.

If approved by the Legislature, the proposal to shift to year-round daylight-saving time would depend on congressional approval. Daylight-saving time will start March 11 this year and end Nov. 4.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: KEVIN_224 on February 18, 2018, 10:41:44 AM
So let's get this straight: A state which has no area roughly east of maybe Pittsburgh, would be an hour ahead from November to March? Got it. Makes no sense at all!

What about the Central time part of the state, "under" and east of southern Alabama?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on February 18, 2018, 10:56:56 AM
The Florida legislature is pushing forward with a bill to move the entire state to DST all year long:

Florida House approves push for Daylight Saving Time (http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15florida-house-approves-push-daylight-saving-time/340178002/)

Quote
The Florida House on Wednesday overwhelmingly approved a proposal aimed at observing daylight-saving time year-round in the state. House members voted 103-11 to support the measure (HB 1013), filed by Rep. Jeanette Nunez, R-Miami, and Rep. Heather Fitzenhagen, R-Fort Myers.

Fitzenhagen said moving to daylight-saving time could help the tourism industry, as people would be able to stay out later in the sunlight. A similar bill (SB 858) also is moving through the Senate.

If approved by the Legislature, the proposal to shift to year-round daylight-saving time would depend on congressional approval. Daylight-saving time will start March 11 this year and end Nov. 4.
So let's get this straight: A state which has no area roughly east of maybe Pittsburgh, would be an hour ahead from November to March? Got it. Makes no sense at all!

Tourism: A powerful lobby in the Sunshine State.

It's nicer to have that extra hour after work when you might not need it in the morning...but in the grand scheme of things, Florida has almost no reason at all for any time changes; rarely affected by snow or ice for morning commutes, their earliest sunsets are 5:45pm-6:00pm in winter, combined with 8:30pm-9:00pm sundowns in the summer. Not a huge swing, I suppose this just even it out a little.

Curious to see how amicable lawmakers in the Panhandle will be towards the idea? The areas directly north of Florida's northern border aren't heavily populated (there's not a lot of "twin cities" around that part of the state). Pensacola-Mobile might be the only one, and even that's a 45-minute distance apart.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on February 18, 2018, 11:36:28 AM
So let's get this straight: A state which has no area roughly east of maybe Pittsburgh, would be an hour ahead from November to March? Got it. Makes no sense at all!

What about the Central time part of the state, "under" and east of southern Alabama?
Being south means longer day in winter (but shorter in summer). Latest sunrise in Miami in current time zone is 7.12 with pretty long 10.33 day... Unlike more northern areas, FL does have some wiggle room in terms of timing things.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on February 18, 2018, 11:49:49 AM
So let's get this straight: A state which has no area roughly east of maybe Pittsburgh, would be an hour ahead from November to March? Got it. Makes no sense at all!
Though they are so far south that the loss of light in morning and evening due to winter is not so strong that it matters much that mornings are getting darker.

Florida has just about enough light in winter to be able to lose it from the morning without making mornings too dark - especially where the population is towards the south/west of the state, and enough in the afternoon that adding an hour of evening light (stolen from the morning) would give enough after work to be able to do something with it.
Latest sunrise in Miami in current time zone is 7.12
Actually it's 0730 - on the last day of DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on February 18, 2018, 01:11:50 PM
Latest sunrise in Miami in current time zone is 7.12
Actually it's 0730 - on the last day of DST.
good catch!
but still proves that moving clock makes only that much sense for the area.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 06, 2018, 02:38:15 PM
While I am an advocate of DST, I've decided that I do wish it was for a shorter time frame.

We'll be getting an extra hour of light in the evening next week, which is great, but the transition is too rushed. I want time to appreciate 6 pm sunsets before we rush ahead and make them 7 pm. Besides, the darker mornings are going to be pretty rugged for a few weeks.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on March 06, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
Better do the European way. Currently I have set my forum preferences to Central Europe with American DST (as I don't bother to change the offset only to revert a couple weeks later) while I quote times here in "where Big Rig Steve is now" (until December 31 last year I used Eastern) with Euro DST. As a result, the range of the latter will change from Eastern-Central-Mountain-Pacific to Central-Mountain-Pacific-Alaska for two weeks. As always, I consider Arizona (except the Navajo nation) to switch from Mountain to Pacific once DST starts, and in my system it won't revert from Pacific to Mountain once Europe advances that hour, but stay in Pacific.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 06, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 06, 2018, 07:03:14 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.

Actually people are much happier when their waking and sleeping times align to the solar clock, and small inexperienced people are quite a bit safer walking to school when it's light out.  I feel your comments are a strawman, because it's so easy to disprove them with a sunrise/sunset chart.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 07:18:37 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on March 06, 2018, 07:22:05 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 07:23:01 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.

Actually people are much happier when their waking and sleeping times align to the solar clock, and small inexperienced people are quite a bit safer walking to school when it's light out.  I feel your comments are a strawman, because it's so easy to disprove them with a sunrise/sunset chart.
Saying DST aligns you with the solar clock doesn't hold water.  It might elsewhere, but here, we have sunny mornings and then when DST kicks in, it is back to dark.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: bulldog1979 on March 06, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
DST interferes with one portion of business at work. Our restaurant POS is set to run its daily closure routines at 2:45 a.m. every night. On the night that the time changes in the spring, the clock jumps from 1:59:59 directly to 3:00:00, and the server doesn't close that Saturday's business because 2:45 doesn't happen. Last year, I figured out the correct order to manually run the processes. This year, we're changing the time to 3:15 temporarily.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on March 06, 2018, 07:58:31 PM
If anything, FL should remain on EST year round, not EDT, which is the equivalent of AST.  Miami is as far west as Pittsburgh, and Jacksonville as far west as Cleveland, and yet they would be an hour ahead of Boston, which is about 8 degrees of longitude east of Miami, in the winter.  If the time zone lines were to be redrawn and standard time observed year round, I would redraw them like this:

ET (UTC-4): Anything north and east of a line that would start in northern Quebec, pass west of Ottawa and Kingston, cut between Syracuse and Rochester, then pass west of Williamsport and between I-81 and I-99, passing just west of Hagerstown, clipping the WV panhandle counties that are part of the DC exurbs, then bending east just south of the I-81/I-64 junction, passing diagonally southeast down to the NC border just west of I-95, then following the NC/VA border to the coast.

CT (UTC-5):  Basically anything not mentioned above that is east of the Mississippi, with the western line bending west around the major metropolitan areas along the river (Twin Cities, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans).

MT (UTC-6): Anything between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, with some adjustments for metro areas

PT (UTC-7): Anything west of the Continental Divide to the Pacific. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 08:01:35 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Yep, and damn those spoiled brats - they deserve 5 AM alarm clock! But god forbids poor babies walk 50 feet in the dark...
It is really one way or the other, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on March 06, 2018, 08:01:57 PM
If anything, FL should remain on EST year round, not EDT, which is the equivalent of AST.  Miami is as far west as Pittsburgh, and Jacksonville as far west as Cleveland, and yet they would be an hour ahead of Boston, which is about 8 degrees of longitude east of Miami, in the winter.  If the time zone lines were to be redrawn and standard time observed year round, I would redraw them like this:

ET (UTC-4): Anything north and east of a line that would start in northern Quebec, pass west of Ottawa and Kingston, cut between Syracuse and Rochester, then pass west of Williamsport and between I-81 and I-99, passing just west of Hagerstown, clipping the WV panhandle counties that are part of the DC exurbs, then bending east just south of the I-81/I-64 junction, passing diagonally southeast down to the NC border just west of I-95, then following the NC/VA border to the coast.

CT (UTC-5):  Basically anything not mentioned above that is east of the Mississippi, with the western line bending west around the major metropolitan areas along the river (Twin Cities, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans).

MT (UTC-6): Anything between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, with some adjustments for metro areas

PT (UTC-7): Anything west of the Continental Divide to the Pacific.

If standard time was year round, it would be -5, -6, -7, and -8. Your numbers (-4, -5, -6, and -7) are for daylight savings time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on March 06, 2018, 08:14:10 PM
If anything, FL should remain on EST year round, not EDT, which is the equivalent of AST.  Miami is as far west as Pittsburgh, and Jacksonville as far west as Cleveland, and yet they would be an hour ahead of Boston, which is about 8 degrees of longitude east of Miami, in the winter.  If the time zone lines were to be redrawn and standard time observed year round, I would redraw them like this:

ET (UTC-4): Anything north and east of a line that would start in northern Quebec, pass west of Ottawa and Kingston, cut between Syracuse and Rochester, then pass west of Williamsport and between I-81 and I-99, passing just west of Hagerstown, clipping the WV panhandle counties that are part of the DC exurbs, then bending east just south of the I-81/I-64 junction, passing diagonally southeast down to the NC border just west of I-95, then following the NC/VA border to the coast.

CT (UTC-5):  Basically anything not mentioned above that is east of the Mississippi, with the western line bending west around the major metropolitan areas along the river (Twin Cities, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans).

MT (UTC-6): Anything between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, with some adjustments for metro areas

PT (UTC-7): Anything west of the Continental Divide to the Pacific.

If standard time was year round, it would be -5, -6, -7, and -8. Your numbers (-4, -5, -6, and -7) are for daylight savings time.

I renamed the time zones.  ET is AST equivalent, CT is EST equivalent, MT is CST equivalent, and PT is MST equivalent.  There is NO way I would keep the northeast on EST year round; a 4:15 AM sunrise in my area on 6/21 is ridiculous, while a 5:20 sunset in December is certainly more desireable.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on March 06, 2018, 08:50:31 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Yep, and damn those spoiled brats - they deserve 5 AM alarm clock! But god forbids poor babies walk 50 feet in the dark...
It is really one way or the other, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

Do you actually have any children, or are you just looking for attention?

You're the only one dragging out the "think of the children" chestnut, and I really don't care one way or another about time changes.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 06, 2018, 09:00:02 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
Actually people are much happier when their waking and sleeping times align to the solar clock, and small inexperienced people are quite a bit safer walking to school when it's light out.  I feel your comments are a strawman, because it's so easy to disprove them with a sunrise/sunset chart.

Between the two of you, a more general problem has been identified: Whatever a sunrise/sunset chart proves in Boston, it will prove something completely different in Indianapolis.

Year-round DST would really only affect the western half of all the time zones, as it would be dark well past school start time. And the reciprocal, of course, is that having no DST at all primarily impacts areas east in their respective time zones - they'd theoretically wake up at 4am and never get to experience a long summer evening.

I also question what better aligns to people's natural clocks - DST or no DST? It's a very subjective matter - by my standards, the sun should rise at 10am and set at midnight  :-P
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 06, 2018, 09:25:18 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Yep, and damn those spoiled brats - they deserve 5 AM alarm clock! But god forbids poor babies walk 50 feet in the dark...
It is really one way or the other, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

Do you actually have any children, or are you just looking for attention?

You're the only one dragging out the "think of the children" chestnut, and I really don't care one way or another about time changes.
Actually I am laughing at that argument. Ever heard of sarcasm?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on March 06, 2018, 09:29:13 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Yep, and damn those spoiled brats - they deserve 5 AM alarm clock! But god forbids poor babies walk 50 feet in the dark...
It is really one way or the other, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

Do you actually have any children, or are you just looking for attention?

You're the only one dragging out the "think of the children" chestnut, and I really don't care one way or another about time changes.
Actually I am laughing at that argument. Ever heard of sarcasm?

Oh, the invisible sarcasm flag...how did I miss that one?

It's much less worse than the adults who swear by the inherent dangers of missing an hour's rest.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 07, 2018, 01:04:36 AM
Actually I am laughing at that argument. Ever heard of sarcasm?

I sure have—sarcasm extraordinaire here—but if there's one thing that just doesn't convey over the Internet, it's sarcasm. At least not without marking it explicitly, which is self-defeating in purpose…



Actually people are much happier when their waking and sleeping times align to the solar clock, and small inexperienced people are quite a bit safer walking to school when it's light out.  I feel your comments are a strawman, because it's so easy to disprove them with a sunrise/sunset chart.

As someone who works third shift and doesn't give a shit about what time actual sunrise/sunset occurs, I can very much do without the arbitrary loss and gain of an hour twice a year.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: GenExpwy on March 07, 2018, 02:27:01 AM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.

I remember the winter of 1973-’74, when we had winter DST. That actually was a big issue then. A lot of parents really were seriously upset.

It’s easy to sit there and say how much simpler year-round DST would be, but if you actually implemented it, you would be roasted alive in December and January by today’s more paranoid safety-conscious parents. And if you had year-round Standard Time, most people in July and August would wonder why we’re wasting daylight on pre-waking hours rather than evening-activity hours.

Maybe tweak the dates if you want, but the current Daylight Saving Time system is the worst — except for all the others.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 07, 2018, 02:50:41 AM
It’s easy to sit there and say how much simpler year-round DST would be, but if you actually implemented it, you would be roasted alive in December and January by today’s more paranoid safety-conscious parents.

Except I don't care about what parents think. If they can't reasonably either A) teach their children to be responsible and handle themselves, and/or B) help their children reasonably deal with the situation, then there's a problem with parenting and/or the school system. My entire point is, while there might be a problem, the antiquated DST solution isn't the answer. Later school start times are a far more reasonable and effective solution to the (IMO, scare-mongering) problem of kids walking to school "in the dark."

Never mind that DST wasn't exactly created with the children in mind…
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 07, 2018, 06:09:58 AM
Actually I am laughing at that argument. Ever heard of sarcasm?

I sure have—sarcasm extraordinaire here—but if there's one thing that just doesn't convey over the Internet, it's sarcasm. At least not without marking it explicitly, which is self-defeating in purpose…

I tried to make it obvious. Spoiled brats and poor babies referring to same kids in same paragraph... But oh,well.

I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.

I remember the winter of 1973-’74, when we had winter DST. That actually was a big issue then. A lot of parents really were seriously upset.

It’s easy to sit there and say how much simpler year-round DST would be, but if you actually implemented it, you would be roasted alive in December and January by today’s more paranoid safety-conscious parents. And if you had year-round Standard Time, most people in July and August would wonder why we’re wasting daylight on pre-waking hours rather than evening-activity hours.

Maybe tweak the dates if you want, but the current Daylight Saving Time system is the worst — except for all the others.


Problem is that the argument is quite regional. One hour difference across time zone means something intolerable for Boston is what Cleveland actually gets even with clock adjustment. Someone in Florida wouldn't understand the issue at all.
As for me, I grew up further north; and there were periods when school day was actually longer than solar day. So whatever they did with the clock, at least one trip would be in the dark, with possibility of kid travelling both ways with sun below horizon.  And you know what? Our entire class survived that!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on March 07, 2018, 07:09:00 AM
Actually I am laughing at that argument. Ever heard of sarcasm?

I sure have—sarcasm extraordinaire here—but if there's one thing that just doesn't convey over the Internet, it's sarcasm. At least not without marking it explicitly, which is self-defeating in purpose…



Actually people are much happier when their waking and sleeping times align to the solar clock, and small inexperienced people are quite a bit safer walking to school when it's light out.  I feel your comments are a strawman, because it's so easy to disprove them with a sunrise/sunset chart.

As someone who works third shift and doesn't give a shit about what time actual sunrise/sunset occurs, I can very much do without the arbitrary loss and gain of an hour twice a year.

Here's a tip: Sarcasm works once, but after the third go-round, it's indistinguishable from ignorance. (This is a forum where 80% of the members have a white-hot rage and froth over I-238.)

Where I live, it's nice to have the chance for the sun to melt away - or at least, visually spot - potential ice from the roads before driving off. If you live north of the Sun Belt, too bad for you...there's no effect. I also like the additional hour of sunlight after work, so I look forward to that benefit as well.

So yeah, this is one of those rare things where I'm a happy little robot to comply. I'm under no illusion that this is magically creating time or more hours in a day.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: KEVIN_224 on March 07, 2018, 09:17:14 AM
The local sunrise and sunset for New Britain, CT today, March 7th, is 6:16 AM and 5:48 PM. Total length of daylight is 11 hours 32 minutes. I'm guessing our sunset on Sunday will be around 6:53 PM or so. Nothing is stranger than the sun setting near 7 PM and several inches of snow are on the ground. I sincerely wish they'd put it back to the 2006 and earlier setup of early April to late October. Oh...and put Indianapolis on Central Time where they belong!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: davewiecking on March 07, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Florida legislature voted yesterday to go to DST year-round. Needs signature from the Governor, and approval from US Congress. According to http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article203781769.html, sunrise on winter solstice would be 8A and sunset 6:30P; writer of article apparently believes Florida is a point, not an area. Sponsoring Senator reportedly got idea after hearing his barber complain that his kids had trouble waking up the day after the time change (but apparently it's OK for them to walk to school in the dark).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: oscar on March 07, 2018, 09:46:04 AM
According to http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article203781769.html, sunrise on winter solstice would be 8A and sunset 6:30P; writer of article apparently believes Florida is a point, not an area.

Also forgetting the Florida panhandle areas, like Pensacola, that are in a different time zone from Miami's.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on March 07, 2018, 09:49:14 AM
Florida legislature voted yesterday to go to DST year-round. Needs signature from the Governor, and approval from US Congress. According to http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article203781769.html, sunrise on winter solstice would be 8A and sunset 6:30P; writer of article apparently believes Florida is a point, not an area. Sponsoring Senator reportedly got idea after hearing his barber complain that his kids had trouble waking up the day after the time change (but apparently it's OK for them to walk to school in the dark).

How did they handle the panhandle (no pun intended)? Is the panhandle on EST, while the rest is on AST?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on March 07, 2018, 10:02:47 AM
Florida legislature voted yesterday to go to DST year-round. Needs signature from the Governor, and approval from US Congress. According to http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article203781769.html, sunrise on winter solstice would be 8A and sunset 6:30P; writer of article apparently believes Florida is a point, not an area. Sponsoring Senator reportedly got idea after hearing his barber complain that his kids had trouble waking up the day after the time change (but apparently it's OK for them to walk to school in the dark).

How did they handle the panhandle (no pun intended)? Is the panhandle on EST, while the rest is on AST?
The original proposal was for the entire state to be in Eastern Time zone.. but the panhandle legislators want to stay on Central.

At one point in the past all of Florida and Georgia were Central Time



Z981

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on March 07, 2018, 10:13:34 AM
Florida legislature voted yesterday to go to DST year-round. Needs signature from the Governor, and approval from US Congress. According to http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article203781769.html, sunrise on winter solstice would be 8A and sunset 6:30P; writer of article apparently believes Florida is a point, not an area. Sponsoring Senator reportedly got idea after hearing his barber complain that his kids had trouble waking up the day after the time change (but apparently it's OK for them to walk to school in the dark).

How did they handle the panhandle (no pun intended)? Is the panhandle on EST, while the rest is on AST?
The original proposal was for the entire state to be in Eastern Time zone.. but the panhandle legislators want to stay on Central.

At one point in the past all of Florida and Georgia were Central Time



Z981

It would be ridiculous for the Panhandle to switch to Atlantic Standard Time (which is what this proposal really is). That would create a two-hour difference between Alabama and Florida.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on March 07, 2018, 10:23:38 AM
Florida legislature voted yesterday to go to DST year-round. Needs signature from the Governor, and approval from US Congress. According to http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article203781769.html, sunrise on winter solstice would be 8A and sunset 6:30P; writer of article apparently believes Florida is a point, not an area. Sponsoring Senator reportedly got idea after hearing his barber complain that his kids had trouble waking up the day after the time change (but apparently it's OK for them to walk to school in the dark).

How did they handle the panhandle (no pun intended)? Is the panhandle on EST, while the rest is on AST?
The original proposal was for the entire state to be in Eastern Time zone.. but the panhandle legislators want to stay on Central.

At one point in the past all of Florida and Georgia were Central Time



Z981

It would be ridiculous for the Panhandle to switch to Atlantic Standard Time (which is what this proposal really is). That would create a two-hour difference between Alabama and Florida.
I agree.. I like daylight savings time.. I like having daylight after work in the evening.. but I also understand not having it all year.

People adapt to whatever the time is... I see no need to change from current practice.

 I don't like the idea of every state having different time.  My ex wife's dad lived in Indiana and trying to remember what time it was there to make calls etc was a PITA, not life ending.. but it's hard enough to remember time difference with California

Jacksonville CMSA is actually in Florida and Georgia so if this gets approved the same metro area will be different times part of the year. 

Z981
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 07, 2018, 10:27:51 AM
I don't like the idea of every state having different time.

It's not difficult when every state has a consistent approach to DST.  When I lived in Chicago and my parents lived in Atlanta, it was always an hour later when I called them.  It's the same for colleagues in Ohio or Delaware or New York.

And fuck the kids, I don't like leaving for work when it's still dark out.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on March 07, 2018, 10:40:02 AM
I don't like the idea of every state having different time.

It's not difficult when every state has a consistent approach to DST.  When I lived in Chicago and my parents lived in Atlanta, it was always an hour later when I called them.  It's the same for colleagues in Ohio or Delaware or New York.

And fuck the kids, I don't like leaving for work when it's still dark out.
I understand different time zones.. let me clarify what I mean is state A observes daylight savings time but state B does not(where bother are in the same time zone)..  Imagine a handful of states not observing DST.. some others being on DST year round..

So you live in Chicago and your mama lives in Atlanta and your daddy lives in Miami, both eastern time but in the summer Atlanta being an hour earlier but Miami is the same time.

Z981

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on March 07, 2018, 10:41:35 AM
With the day being shorter in the winter I remember leaving for work in the dark and getting off in the dark when I lived in NJ.

 So especially in northern latitudes winter is going to mean driving  to work or driving home in the dark for many if not most people

Z981
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 07, 2018, 11:15:04 AM
With the day being shorter in the winter I remember leaving for work in the dark and getting off in the dark when I lived in NJ.

 So especially in northern latitudes winter is going to mean driving  to work or driving home in the dark for many if not most people

Z981
Somewhat related image:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkhvBugUUAAaAn9.jpg)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on March 07, 2018, 01:27:46 PM
With the day being shorter in the winter I remember leaving for work in the dark and getting off in the dark when I lived in NJ.

 So especially in northern latitudes winter is going to mean driving  to work or driving home in the dark for many if not most people

Z981
Somewhat related image:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkhvBugUUAAaAn9.jpg)
I understand that.. I am the totally exhausted pigeon.. I just can't seem to get to bed before midnight.

Z981

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on March 07, 2018, 01:49:44 PM
I'm questioning some of the claims in that Florida article.  Shouldn't it be the spring forward, not the fall back, where it would be harder to get kids up?  Fall back is when you gain an hour.  And why do shops have to close at sunset?  Why couldn't a couple eat out?  None of this makes any kind of sense.

If anything, FL should remain on EST year round, not EDT, which is the equivalent of AST.  Miami is as far west as Pittsburgh, and Jacksonville as far west as Cleveland, and yet they would be an hour ahead of Boston, which is about 8 degrees of longitude east of Miami, in the winter.  If the time zone lines were to be redrawn and standard time observed year round, I would redraw them like this:

ET (UTC-4): Anything north and east of a line that would start in northern Quebec, pass west of Ottawa and Kingston, cut between Syracuse and Rochester, then pass west of Williamsport and between I-81 and I-99, passing just west of Hagerstown, clipping the WV panhandle counties that are part of the DC exurbs, then bending east just south of the I-81/I-64 junction, passing diagonally southeast down to the NC border just west of I-95, then following the NC/VA border to the coast.

CT (UTC-5):  Basically anything not mentioned above that is east of the Mississippi, with the western line bending west around the major metropolitan areas along the river (Twin Cities, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans).

MT (UTC-6): Anything between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, with some adjustments for metro areas

PT (UTC-7): Anything west of the Continental Divide to the Pacific.

If standard time was year round, it would be -5, -6, -7, and -8. Your numbers (-4, -5, -6, and -7) are for daylight savings time.

I renamed the time zones.  ET is AST equivalent, CT is EST equivalent, MT is CST equivalent, and PT is MST equivalent.  There is NO way I would keep the northeast on EST year round; a 4:15 AM sunrise in my area on 6/21 is ridiculous, while a 5:20 sunset in December is certainly more desireable.

I would not want to be on AST.  I'm prefectly fine with a 4:20 sunset, but it's already too dark in the morning as it is.  Year round EST might work though.  Maybe the early sunrise would actually wake me up enough to get out of bed for work on time.  As it is now, I wake up extremely groggy (and am usually wide awake when I go to bed).  It's also easier to scrape the car off in winter if the sun has had a chance to soften the ice first, which doesn't happen on DST.

Honestly, though, I'd rather just return to the old rules that had us on DST from April-October.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 07, 2018, 02:16:33 PM
The local sunrise and sunset for New Britain, CT today, March 7th, is 6:16 AM and 5:48 PM.

In Rochester, it's 6:36 AM and 6:07 PM. I wouldn't like even that 20 minute offset. I can't stand the few weeks in November when solar noon is before actual noon. Anywhere between 12 and 1:30 is good.

Quote
Nothing is stranger than the sun setting near 7 PM and several inches of snow are on the ground.

A few hundred miles to your northwest, there is absolutely nothing strange about that. In fact, it's quite common. We'd be fooling ourselves if we though winter's wrath was over by March 10th  :)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: SP Cook on March 07, 2018, 02:22:08 PM
Moving most of Florida to AST is really dumb.  For one thing sunrise would be almost 8 in winter.  The other thing is that it puts the state out-of-sync with the flow of the electronic entertainment industry.  Unless (like Canada does, but the population pattern is way different) want to spool up a AST TV feed, primetime would be 9-12, the NFL would start at 2, college at 1, and night baseball at 8.  Nationally televised sports events like NBA or MLB playoffs, generally held for an 8 ET start to accomodate the west coast (most people can at least listen to the start on the radio as they drive home) would start at 9, and thus end well after midnight. 

No way the sports leagues and TV networks allow such a thing in the third largest state. 

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 07, 2018, 03:08:41 PM
I don't like the idea of every state having different time.

It's not difficult when every state has a consistent approach to DST.  When I lived in Chicago and my parents lived in Atlanta, it was always an hour later when I called them.  It's the same for colleagues in Ohio or Delaware or New York.

And fuck the kids, I don't like leaving for work when it's still dark out.
I understand different time zones.. let me clarify what I mean is state A observes daylight savings time but state B does not(where bother are in the same time zone)..  Imagine a handful of states not observing DST.. some others being on DST year round..

So you live in Chicago and your mama lives in Atlanta and your daddy lives in Miami, both eastern time but in the summer Atlanta being an hour earlier but Miami is the same time.

Z981

I get what you're saying now.  We have an office in Phoenix and I have to go to Google to figure out what time it is there.  Same for my wife's family who live in England, where they go on and off DST at different times than we do.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US 89 on March 07, 2018, 04:17:00 PM
If anything, FL should remain on EST year round, not EDT, which is the equivalent of AST.  Miami is as far west as Pittsburgh, and Jacksonville as far west as Cleveland, and yet they would be an hour ahead of Boston, which is about 8 degrees of longitude east of Miami, in the winter.  If the time zone lines were to be redrawn and standard time observed year round, I would redraw them like this:

ET (UTC-4): Anything north and east of a line that would start in northern Quebec, pass west of Ottawa and Kingston, cut between Syracuse and Rochester, then pass west of Williamsport and between I-81 and I-99, passing just west of Hagerstown, clipping the WV panhandle counties that are part of the DC exurbs, then bending east just south of the I-81/I-64 junction, passing diagonally southeast down to the NC border just west of I-95, then following the NC/VA border to the coast.

CT (UTC-5):  Basically anything not mentioned above that is east of the Mississippi, with the western line bending west around the major metropolitan areas along the river (Twin Cities, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans).

MT (UTC-6): Anything between the Mississippi and the Continental Divide, with some adjustments for metro areas

PT (UTC-7): Anything west of the Continental Divide to the Pacific.

If standard time was year round, it would be -5, -6, -7, and -8. Your numbers (-4, -5, -6, and -7) are for daylight savings time.

Speaking for Utah, there’s no way I would want to be on Pacific standard time year round. If that were the case, we’d have sunset before 4 pm in winter. EDIT: after thinking about this more and looking on timeanddate.com, the sun would rise at 3:55 AM in June, and only set at 7 pm.

I could deal with MST year round, but I like MDT just fine. I just wish DST started late enough in spring that it was still light at 7:30 in the morning.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on March 07, 2018, 06:01:06 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

I feel like that's largely a strawman that no one actually believes except Fox News watchers and truly crazy people.

Unless you're not serious.
Actually my feeling is that high school starting time is deliberately set up so that kids get used to waking up in a dark all the year round...

School bus and parental pick-up schedules, that's why.
Yep, and damn those spoiled brats - they deserve 5 AM alarm clock! But god forbids poor babies walk 50 feet in the dark...
It is really one way or the other, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

Do you actually have any children, or are you just looking for attention?

You're the only one dragging out the "think of the children" chestnut, and I really don't care one way or another about time changes.


I have kids and I really didn't like them getting on the bus in the dark in the morning when I lived in the EST/EDT part of Indiana.  Some school districts moved start times back past 9am to avoid that but then that created morning child care issues if both parents work.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2018, 03:02:33 AM
Keep the time the same, and shift the children one hour into the future in the springtime.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 08, 2018, 07:27:21 AM
The Florida thing seems backwards to me because they're further south than the rest of Eastern Time and they already have longer days in the winter (sunset is half an hour to 40 minutes later on Christmas than it is in the DC area, for example) and shorter days in the summer.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 08, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 08, 2018, 12:05:52 PM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.
It is more about if one size can fit all. Usually that is not the case.
Public schools and clock settings (or highway speed limit), however, is something that comes in one size only for a given location.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 08, 2018, 12:26:14 PM
The Florida thing seems backwards to me because they're further south than the rest of Eastern Time and they already have longer days in the winter (sunset is half an hour to 40 minutes later on Christmas than it is in the DC area, for example) and shorter days in the summer.

Like kalvado said, you can't control for everything.  It's dark by 5 pm in the wintertime in Chicago, and it's light past 9 pm in the summertime in Western Michigan, but you have to put that pesky border between Eastern Time and Central Time somewhere.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2018, 12:45:16 PM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

There's research stating one thing, and then there's the reality.  School buses need to be coordinated.  Sport/Activity schedules need to be coordinated.  If you need X amount of time in the morning to get ready, get on the bus/drive to school at 7:30am, begin school at 8am; end at 3pm, start afterschool activities at 4pm, ends at 6pm, kid gets home at 7pm, then where do you fit in dinner and homework, because those same people say a teen needs 8 - 9 hours of sleep.  If you say there's 3 hours between 7pm and 10pm, then you have just tied up the kid with a strict, rigid schedule for an entire 24 hour period, 5 days a week. 

Oh, by the way, other researchers will say a rigid schedule with no time for relaxing/playing/etc. isn't good either. 

Which is why a lot of this so-called research is money well-wasted, because there's numerous conflictions among the research.  The news media, which often informs us of such research, would never do such comparisons.  They just like getting the press releases and doing stories on them.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on March 08, 2018, 12:50:37 PM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

There's research stating one thing, and then there's the reality.  School buses need to be coordinated.  Sport/Activity schedules need to be coordinated.  If you need X amount of time in the morning to get ready, get on the bus/drive to school at 7:30am, begin school at 8am; end at 3pm, start afterschool activities at 4pm, ends at 6pm, kid gets home at 7pm, then where do you fit in dinner and homework, because those same people say a teen needs 8 - 9 hours of sleep.  If you say there's 3 hours between 7pm and 10pm, then you have just tied up the kid with a strict, rigid schedule for an entire 24 hour period, 5 days a week. 

Oh, by the way, other researchers will say a rigid schedule with no time for relaxing/playing/etc. isn't good either. 

Which is why a lot of this so-called research is money well-wasted, because there's numerous conflictions among the research.  The news media, which often informs us of such research, would never do such comparisons.  They just like getting the press releases and doing stories on them.

I seem to remember studies showing that if high schoolers start later, and elementary school kids start earlier (the opposite of pretty much everywhere), things will be better than the way it's currently done where high schoolers start earlier. Since it's just a switch and not shifting everyone earlier or later or removing the staggering, it shouldn't be hard to do.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 08, 2018, 01:06:19 PM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

There's research stating one thing, and then there's the reality.  School buses need to be coordinated.  Sport/Activity schedules need to be coordinated.  If you need X amount of time in the morning to get ready, get on the bus/drive to school at 7:30am, begin school at 8am; end at 3pm, start afterschool activities at 4pm, ends at 6pm, kid gets home at 7pm, then where do you fit in dinner and homework, because those same people say a teen needs 8 - 9 hours of sleep.  If you say there's 3 hours between 7pm and 10pm, then you have just tied up the kid with a strict, rigid schedule for an entire 24 hour period, 5 days a week. 

Oh, by the way, other researchers will say a rigid schedule with no time for relaxing/playing/etc. isn't good either. 

Which is why a lot of this so-called research is money well-wasted, because there's numerous conflictions among the research.  The news media, which often informs us of such research, would never do such comparisons.  They just like getting the press releases and doing stories on them.

I seem to remember studies showing that if high schoolers start later, and elementary school kids start earlier (the opposite of pretty much everywhere), things will be better than the way it's currently done where high schoolers start earlier. Since it's just a switch and not shifting everyone earlier or later or removing the staggering, it shouldn't be hard to do.

But then the 7 year old would be done school at 2:30pm.  Like I mentioned, there's the reality of the situation: If both parents work, the kid is in after-school daycare...and I doubt the studies referenced how the kid functions when it's in what's pretty much a structured environment until someone picks the kid up.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 08, 2018, 01:14:54 PM
The Florida thing seems backwards to me because they're further south than the rest of Eastern Time and they already have longer days in the winter (sunset is half an hour to 40 minutes later on Christmas than it is in the DC area, for example) and shorter days in the summer.

Like kalvado said, you can't control for everything.  It's dark by 5 pm in the wintertime in Chicago, and it's light past 9 pm in the summertime in Western Michigan, but you have to put that pesky border between Eastern Time and Central Time somewhere.

Another option is to adjust local schedules to preferred time zone.
Just assume that proverbial 9-to-5 can be set to 8.30-to-4.30; or 8-to-4, or even 7-to-3 or 10-to-6, based on local preference (vote?).
I'm not sure if big banks, box stores or federal agencies  would give that much freedom to local branches; but fundamentally - why not?
That can create a way more continuous change of local timing compared to 1-hour zones.
Moreover, I believe a lot of things in California are already offset to better match customers in eastern time zone.

It doesn't solve a problem of early birds and night owls in a given city, but still is another knob to tweak. And an easier one compared to setting time zone  in terms of passing laws or clock discrepancies - although getting everyone on board is a different problem.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on March 08, 2018, 09:19:22 PM
It's less about whether my future kids get on a school bus when it's light or dark, and more about the fact that they're expected to start their school day before 8 am.  There are mountains of research to suggest that's a bad idea, yet here we are, doing it.

There's research stating one thing, and then there's the reality.  School buses need to be coordinated.  Sport/Activity schedules need to be coordinated.  If you need X amount of time in the morning to get ready, get on the bus/drive to school at 7:30am, begin school at 8am; end at 3pm, start afterschool activities at 4pm, ends at 6pm, kid gets home at 7pm, then where do you fit in dinner and homework, because those same people say a teen needs 8 - 9 hours of sleep.  If you say there's 3 hours between 7pm and 10pm, then you have just tied up the kid with a strict, rigid schedule for an entire 24 hour period, 5 days a week. 

Oh, by the way, other researchers will say a rigid schedule with no time for relaxing/playing/etc. isn't good either. 

Which is why a lot of this so-called research is money well-wasted, because there's numerous conflictions among the research.  The news media, which often informs us of such research, would never do such comparisons.  They just like getting the press releases and doing stories on them.

I seem to remember studies showing that if high schoolers start later, and elementary school kids start earlier (the opposite of pretty much everywhere), things will be better than the way it's currently done where high schoolers start earlier. Since it's just a switch and not shifting everyone earlier or later or removing the staggering, it shouldn't be hard to do.

But then the 7 year old would be done school at 2:30pm.  Like I mentioned, there's the reality of the situation: If both parents work, the kid is in after-school daycare...and I doubt the studies referenced how the kid functions when it's in what's pretty much a structured environment until someone picks the kid up.

So that means that we're putting the parent's wishes above what's best for the kid.

You can free up time by eliminating homework—schoolwork should be done at school where there's no distractions anyway. If kids need extra self- or parent-directed study time after school, that should be something determined by the parent's prerogative, not a mandatory burden placed on them by the school by assigning busywork to them on their way out the door.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 09, 2018, 01:13:12 PM
The bill in Florida to put the state on perpetual daylight savings time has passed both houses overwhelmingly.  If it is signed, or if a veto action would be overturned, there seems to be a conflict with Federal laws.

It would have been better if they had moved the state to the Atlantic time zone and then abandon daylight savings time.  That may have been easier to accomplish.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 09, 2018, 02:11:03 PM
The bill in Florida to put the state on perpetual daylight savings time has passed both houses overwhelmingly.  If it is signed, or if a veto action would be overturned, there seems to be a conflict with Federal laws.

It would have been better if they had moved the state to the Atlantic time zone and then abandon daylight savings time.  That may have been easier to accomplish.
Probably about the same, as far as I understand.
15 U.S. Code § 261 - Zones for standard time; interstate or foreign commerce - gives Secretary of Transportation (hello, we're back to road-related stuff!) authority on the subject

Quote
The limits of each zone shall be defined by an order of the Secretary of Transportation, having regard for the convenience of commerce [...] and any such order may be modified from time to time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on March 09, 2018, 02:28:00 PM
I can't see the feds overriding a state or local decision on this.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on March 09, 2018, 02:33:01 PM
Being from Indiana, I'm pretty familiar with the process.

States can: decide whether or not to observe Daylight Savings Time
States can't: decide the start and stop dates for Daylight Savings Time

States can: petition the USDOT to change time zones.  The USDOT does not just rubber stamp these.  Some counties in Indiana have been denied requests to change time zones.

So, the Florida state government can't decide to observe EDT year round, but they can ask the USDOT to put the state in the Atlantic Time Zone and then not observe Daylight Savings Time which produces the same result.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 09, 2018, 02:48:08 PM
...
So, the Florida state government can't decide to observe EDT year round, but they can ask the USDOT to put the state in the Atlantic Time Zone and then not observe Daylight Savings Time which produces the same result.

People have been arguing for 6 pages about the placement of certain time zones.  If Florida were to be put into the Atlantic Time Zone, then you will suddenly have issues and arguments about how an Atlantic Time Zone state borders a Central Time Zone state. 

Based on the actual law, and Florida's desires, this is the correct way to go about it though.  Ironically, DST was intended to help those states in more northern climates.  Based on the purpose of the DST law, Florida should be year round EST, not AST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 09, 2018, 05:39:45 PM
Ironically, DST was intended to help those states in more northern climates.  Based on the purpose of the DST law, Florida should be year round EST, not AST.
DST as a concept came from England. It doesn't quite work too far north,  it doesn't quite work in tropics....
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on March 09, 2018, 08:02:30 PM
DST as a concept came from England.
Don't blame us, blame Kaiser Bill. Not only did the German Empire and Austria-Hungary start a bit earlier in 1916 (April 30th vs the UK's May 21st), the UK almost certainly wouldn't have bothered had we not been blockaded by U-boats and in desperate need to save energy and thus willing to try anything.
Quote
It doesn't quite work too far north
Actually it does - in summer (definitely not October though) at 50N (ie London), there's a surplus of light hours in the mornings that shifting an hour makes more sense than at 40N (the Kansas-Nebraska line) where there's less time of the year where there's a surplus hour in the morning.

Of course, 60+ North gives you the lack of a need to change outside of a few weeks before/after the equinoxes as there's so much daylight, you don't need that extra hour after work as there's plenty of daylight around, and vice versa on the winter side of things - there's not enough daylight no matter how you position it. Something which is true at 50N for a few weeks around the solstices, I guess.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Brandon on March 09, 2018, 08:38:06 PM
Ironically, DST was intended to help those states in more northern climates.  Based on the purpose of the DST law, Florida should be year round EST, not AST.
DST as a concept came from England. It doesn't quite work too far north,  it doesn't quite work in tropics....

It did?  I could’ve sworn Ben Franklin had the idea before that.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on March 09, 2018, 10:54:04 PM
Ironically, DST was intended to help those states in more northern climates.  Based on the purpose of the DST law, Florida should be year round EST, not AST.
DST as a concept came from England. It doesn't quite work too far north,  it doesn't quite work in tropics....

It did?  I could’ve sworn Ben Franklin had the idea before that.

He mentioned something similar as a what-if scenario (it involved changing people's schedules, not the clocks themselves), but he was actually against the idea.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: KEVIN_224 on March 09, 2018, 11:01:27 PM
This...on top of people who already tried to get Maine to be on Atlantic Standard Time year round.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 10, 2018, 06:52:58 AM
If several New England states are now encouraged to also choose to move into the Atlantic time zone, the Secretary would be hard pressed to deny their requests.

The way the Eastern time zone is artifically extended westward in the mid-west is certainly precedant setting.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 10, 2018, 07:19:17 AM
If several New England states are now encouraged to also choose to move into the Atlantic time zone, the Secretary would be hard pressed to deny their requests.

The way the Eastern time zone is artifically extended westward in the mid-west is certainly precedant setting.
Another possible argument - day is not really symmetric for most people. Many of us wake up, go to work, and relax in the evening. No more need to feed pigs and milk cows before actual work. So in order to align sleeping cycle with solar cycle, solar noon has to be well past middle of working day. That is, well past 1 PM for 9-to-5 day; 2 PM may be it.
That means extending time zones westward and trimming from the east in general. That is the underlying thing for New England and Atlantic time I believe.

Now, as discussed above, sending kids to school is a modern replacement for milking cows - a significant task to be done before work... And those who have to do it and those who don't have somewhat different perspectives...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on March 10, 2018, 07:53:55 AM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.  I am not persuaded that it works for northern latitudes, at least the American way.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on March 10, 2018, 09:05:50 AM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.  I am not persuaded that it works for northern latitudes, at least the American way.

It's the fact that we change the time, not the time itself, that is the issue.  I would be fine if NY from the Syracuse area east, New England, and most of the Mid-Atlantic (all of NJ and DE, DC, eastern PA, most of MD, a couple of counties in WV, and eastern VA) sprung ahead this weekend, then stayed there as it officially became part of AST. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on March 10, 2018, 04:08:06 PM
As a night owl who can't align her schedule to her circadian rhythm, with chronic insomnia, and possible delayed sleep phase syndrome, I would be very much opposed to permanent DST or AST.

http://www.miami.com/funny-stories/florida-wants-daylight-saving-time-year-round-this-is-going-to-be-a-hot-mess-184636/

That said, I WOULD expand the UTC - 4 time zone... by adding parts of Québec, the main part of Newfoundland, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Chile, Argentina, Paraguay, and Uruguay.  Possibly part of Greenland too.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on March 10, 2018, 05:08:20 PM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.
Surely the Spring time change (the one you are talking about) and morning sun, is something where being north is an advantage - at the equinox/near it the days quickly get longer - and more so the further from the equator you are.

Now sure, the amount of time on DST is too long (especially in the fall), and this morning's 0615 sunrise in New York City isn't early enough to steal an hour (nor the 0614 EST that it would be tomorrow if it wasn't 0715 EDST), but NYC days get 160-163 seconds more daylight each day as this month gets on. The next 0615 sunrise in NYC is April 16th - that's 5 week's time, so we're looking at changing around a month too early.

In London, nearly 11 degrees further north, it was an 0626 sunrise this morning, but days get longer quicker than in NYC (235 to 240 seconds this month) and the sun rises at 0627 on the 5th of April - 11 days before NYC recovers that hour of daylight in the morning. There's 3 days of pre-6am sunrises in London this month (due to 'springing forward' in two weeks time), and the third day after the change is less than a month later (20th April). I think the last Sunday in March change time is about right - it's not perfect, but at least the equinox can be used as an excuse. If only we changed back in late September rather than a terrible October where it's too dark - a 6-6 split also makes more sense than a 7-5 (and definitely better than a US 8-4 split with two weeks more at each end vs European dates)

In Reykjavik, 12.5 degrees north of London, today's 0804 sunrise is 0703 by the 27th (they don't do DST, and are on WET, which is about 88 minutes ahead of solar time, so basically perminant DST) and the days get longer by 391 to 394 seconds. Sunset today was at 1913 and by the time they get enough sun in the morning to enable a shift of a hour and still have a roughly half-6 sunrise the sun is already setting at 20 past 9 - there's no use for the extra hour of daylight in the evening at all.

Jacksonville, roughly 10 degrees south of NYC, but also further west (30 minutes - Jacksonville is 26 minutes behind EST wrt solar time vs NYC's 4 minutes ahead): sunrise was at 0642, but with days only getting longer by 118 to 121 seconds/day, the next 0642 sunrise is May 2nd - 6 and a half weeks time!

Being further north allows one to recover that hour in the morning quickly having shifted it, but being too far north makes it pretty pointless to shift it as it's already light late.

As well as a specific routine that means that DST makes sense (industrial, fixed work patterns - ie the '9-to-5'), it's very much a temperate thing - Florida is far enough south that it isn't worth it, Iceland too far north to be worthwhile
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: SSOWorld on March 10, 2018, 08:33:11 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/26581h.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/26581h)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 10, 2018, 09:01:13 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/26581h.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/26581h)
If you post that at 3.00 AM, THAT would be a good one
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: SSOWorld on March 10, 2018, 09:43:28 PM
No, post it at 2:01 AM. :P
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: ghYHZ on March 11, 2018, 06:35:42 AM
I’m at 62W/45.5N and we just had sunrise here at 7:29 Atlantic Daylight Time….so I guess I’ll have to get used to picking up my double-double at Tim’s in the dark again at 6:30 for the next few weeks!

Sunset will be 7:07 tonight but with a high of only +4 (40F) today….there’s really not much to do outside around the yard yet in the extended daylight after supper.

The change to ADT would have been better here if it occurred in about a month’s time…… but I guess you can’t please everyone! 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 11, 2018, 07:09:01 AM
I'm at 40N/75W and it is a dark morning thanks to the politicians who have imposed this daylight savings time on us.  I will not have daylight for over a month when I get up now.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 11, 2018, 07:30:49 AM
DAYLIGHT
SAVING
TIME.

NO SECOND S.



I'm at [insert Des Moines, IA coordinates here] and I feel wronged because ill-educated politicians (oxymoron, anyone?) still subscribe to a bad idea popularized in the early 20th century. :angry:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: TheHighwayMan394 on March 11, 2018, 07:35:41 AM
I guess I'll be the one to break up the DST bitching that as a guy whose lifestyle has been geared toward nighttime since as long as I can remember, I welcome the later daylight hours.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 11, 2018, 07:39:50 AM
I guess I'll be the one to break up the DST bitching that as a guy whose lifestyle has been geared toward nighttime since as long as I can remember, I welcome the later daylight hours.

It's interesting you say that, because I'd generally consider myself the same, but I have the opposite response: I don't care which adjustment from GMT I live in—I'd just rather that it not change twice a year.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Eth on March 11, 2018, 08:16:56 AM
7:54 AM sunrise in Atlanta this morning. Yuck.

Moving the switchover to early March was easily one of the stupidest decisions ever made. (And this is also why permanent DST is a complete non-starter. Permanent standard time would be workable, though.)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: KEVIN_224 on March 11, 2018, 08:47:57 AM
New Britain, CT (just southwest of Hartford) has rise and set times of 7:09 AM and 6:53 PM. Total time is 11 hours 44 minutes.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: SSOWorld on March 11, 2018, 10:10:27 AM
DAYLIGHT
SAVINGWASTING
TIME.

NO SECOND S.



I'm at [insert Des Moines, IA coordinates here] and I feel wronged because ill-educated politicians (oxymoron, anyone?) still subscribe to a bad idea popularized in the early 20th century. :angry:
bandit957's favorite fix.  :sombrero:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cjk374 on March 11, 2018, 11:29:17 AM
I hate standard time. I love DST! (ducks)

Now I have no chance of working in the dark until November when the time changes back. I too prefer later daylight hours when the sun sets closer to nine rather than 5:30 p.m.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 11, 2018, 11:44:27 AM
I hate standard time. I love DST! (ducks)

Now I have no chance of working in the dark until November when the time changes back. I too prefer later daylight hours when the sun sets closer to nine rather than 5:30 p.m.
Sounds like you love summer and not DST specifically. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mgk920 on March 11, 2018, 11:54:24 AM
DST is one of the few ideas that came into Ben Franklin's mind that he should have kept to himself.  Every time I have to change the clocks, the harder the transition is on me.

 :angry:

It's to the point where I'm wondering if worldwide UTC ('zulu') wouldn't be the right way to go.  Instead of this being posted at 10:54 CST ('UTC -5'), it would be posted at 1554z.

Mike
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 11, 2018, 12:17:37 PM

It's to the point where I'm wondering if worldwide UTC ('zulu') wouldn't be the right way to go.  Instead of this being posted at 10:54 CST ('UTC -5'), it would be posted at 1554z.

Mike
I was flirting with that idea somewhere up the thread.
Two issues:
1. Date will change mid-day for some folks. Not the biggest concern for NY, where date will click at what is now 7 PM, but 4 PM date switch in San Francisco can be bothersome. Imaging if you have a big contract to be signed at 3 PM, and that event runs late - date of contract becomes a legal nightmare... 
2. You will never know what is the actual time of day at a different location. If your overseas friends tell you it is 9 PM, you can safely assume they are about to go to bed, give or take an hour or 2 at most. If both of you are at 18.00 UTC, it tells nothing about actual schedules. Or would you have enough time to catch that 3.00 UTC flight after a day of meetings in HNL?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: J N Winkler on March 11, 2018, 12:36:34 PM
I view DST as something that persists through political inertia because the arguments for and against are finely balanced while the annoyance of a clock change comes around only twice a year.  I favor year-round DST/shifting to the standard time the next time zone east, but this is because I actually like dark mornings, a preference I realize is not shared by the majority of the population and is hard to justify in the face of the standard "What about the little children?" argument.

This year I dealt with the time change by moving the clocks forward at midafternoon yesterday, not just before bedtime, so that the missing hour came out of Saturday daytime chores rather than Saturday evening leisure.  But because my computer is on British time (a necessity so that time offsets for scripts that scrape state DOT FTP servers are all of uniform sign) and so adheres to the EU DST schedule, I will have to deal with scripts running an hour behind for a week or two.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on March 11, 2018, 02:18:44 PM
Since I use the Euro DST dates with my forum time, starting today and until March 25 it is one hour behind the local time of wherever Big Rig Steve is (except if he is to be in Arizona outside the Navajo nation). Since he is now taking a few days off out in Cali, my forum time is now nothing less that Alaska's :sombrero:.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on March 11, 2018, 02:30:42 PM
I hate standard time. I love DST! (ducks)

Now I have no chance of working in the dark until November when the time changes back. I too prefer later daylight hours when the sun sets closer to nine rather than 5:30 p.m.
I agree.  I like having daylight after I get out of work. Dark mornings don't bother me that much

Z981

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 11, 2018, 04:37:45 PM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.

New England, keep in mind, is the least of it. Everywhere between there and Indiana had even less light this morning.

The nice thing is that days are increasing in length at their fastest rate right now. So mornings will be as light as they were yesterday in another month or so.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 11, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
I don't know if it's ever been posted here, but here's the link to the study: https://www.colorado.edu/economics/papers/WPs-14/wp14-05/wp14-05.pdf

Honestly, I didn't read thru the entire thing, because it's written on a fairly high technical level.  But looking at the graphics, it appears this happens:  Deaths are slightly higher the 6 or 7 days around the change to DST compared to the time period just before and after.  However, there's a much larger swing between wintertime (when people aren't driving as much) and summertime (which a lot more people are traveling).

Early in the report, the author estimates there are about 100 fatal crashes per day in the US, which is correct...as an *average*.  He quickly never mentions it again, as his own data shows that driving in the summer overall is much, much more dangerous than in the winter, a time period far removed from the hour lost in March and gained in November.

If you look at Figure 7 on page 31 of the PDF, he highlights the 6 days around the beginning DST when fatals do seem to spike for that period of time.  However, if you look at the chart, around the 25th day after DST, fatals have risen to the same rate again, and continue to rise towards the 50th day after DST (and beyond)

So while everyone wants to make a big deal about DST, you're really best to stay off the road from around mid-April thru the autumn, when fatals are higher.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on March 11, 2018, 05:00:56 PM
I don't know if it's ever been posted here, but here's the link to the study: https://www.colorado.edu/economics/papers/WPs-14/wp14-05/wp14-05.pdf

Honestly, I didn't read thru the entire thing, because it's written on a fairly high technical level.  But looking at the graphics, it appears this happens:  Deaths are slightly higher the 6 or 7 days around the change to DST compared to the time period just before and after.  However, there's a much larger swing between wintertime (when people aren't driving as much) and summertime (which a lot more people are traveling).

Early in the report, the author estimates there are about 100 fatal crashes per day in the US, which is correct...as an *average*.  He quickly never mentions it again, as his own data shows that driving in the summer overall is much, much more dangerous than in the winter, a time period far removed from the hour lost in March and gained in November.

If you look at Figure 7 on page 31 of the PDF, he highlights the 6 days around the beginning DST when fatals do seem to spike for that period of time.  However, if you look at the chart, around the 25th day after DST, fatals have risen to the same rate again, and continue to rise towards the 50th day after DST (and beyond)

So while everyone wants to make a big deal about DST, you're really best to stay off the road from around mid-April thru the autumn, when fatals are higher.

Your last paragraph (more deaths in the summer, so you should avoid it) contradicts your first paragraph (more deaths in the summer, because there are more cars total).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on March 11, 2018, 05:15:30 PM
The nice thing is that days are increasing in length at their fastest rate right now. So mornings will be as light as they were yesterday in another month or so.
Sunrise times are reset to yesterdays on: April 16th for NYC. May 2nd for Jacksonville, April 5th for London, and the 27th of March for Reykjavik (if Iceland did DST, which it doesn't) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22229.msg2310504#msg2310504).

As well as being further east and thus having earlier dawns anyway, being further north means that Eastern NY/New England recover quicker than the rest of the EST area in the US.

The problem currently had is the same as the solution - that the length of daylight is increasing at a faster rate than further south means that changing a week or two before the solstice means that there isn't yet quite the length of day to be able to do the shift sensibly that there is further south. Though if longitude is taken to account, that difference was 2 minutes from Jax to NYC yesterday and so dwarfed by the half-a-time-zone further west Jax is.

These problems are far greater in the fall. The March change is roughly in the right place, but October/November is too late. Miami's latest sunrise is the last day of DST (see a previous post of mine on this) and even somewhere as far north (and thus more extreme wrt daylight lengths) as London has a 0744 sunrise on the last day of DST this year (Oct 27th) with it taking until December 2nd to be as-late again.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 11, 2018, 05:57:22 PM
I don't know if it's ever been posted here, but here's the link to the study: https://www.colorado.edu/economics/papers/WPs-14/wp14-05/wp14-05.pdf

Honestly, I didn't read thru the entire thing, because it's written on a fairly high technical level.  But looking at the graphics, it appears this happens:  Deaths are slightly higher the 6 or 7 days around the change to DST compared to the time period just before and after.  However, there's a much larger swing between wintertime (when people aren't driving as much) and summertime (which a lot more people are traveling).

Early in the report, the author estimates there are about 100 fatal crashes per day in the US, which is correct...as an *average*.  He quickly never mentions it again, as his own data shows that driving in the summer overall is much, much more dangerous than in the winter, a time period far removed from the hour lost in March and gained in November.

If you look at Figure 7 on page 31 of the PDF, he highlights the 6 days around the beginning DST when fatals do seem to spike for that period of time.  However, if you look at the chart, around the 25th day after DST, fatals have risen to the same rate again, and continue to rise towards the 50th day after DST (and beyond)

So while everyone wants to make a big deal about DST, you're really best to stay off the road from around mid-April thru the autumn, when fatals are higher.

Your last paragraph (more deaths in the summer, so you should avoid it) contradicts your first paragraph (more deaths in the summer, because there are more cars total).

Not at all.  They compliment each other.  If you want to avoid a deadlier time period of traveling, don't travel in the summer when more people are on the road.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US71 on March 11, 2018, 05:57:58 PM
I view DST as something that persists through political inertia because the arguments for and against are finely balanced while the annoyance of a clock change comes around only twice a year.  I favor year-round DST/shifting to the standard time the next time zone east, but this is because I actually like dark mornings, a preference I realize is not shared by the majority of the population and is hard to justify in the face of the standard "What about the little children?" argument.

This year I dealt with the time change by moving the clocks forward at midafternoon yesterday, not just before bedtime, so that the missing hour came out of Saturday daytime chores rather than Saturday evening leisure.  But because my computer is on British time (a necessity so that time offsets for scripts that scrape state DOT FTP servers are all of uniform sign) and so adheres to the EU DST schedule, I will have to deal with scripts running an hour behind for a week or two.

I reset my alarm clock before going to bed by hitting the DST button :)

I went to bed about 45 minutes early and woke up about 30 minutes late, "new time".
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 11, 2018, 05:59:20 PM
I view DST as something that persists through political inertia because the arguments for and against are finely balanced while the annoyance of a clock change comes around only twice a year.  I favor year-round DST/shifting to the standard time the next time zone east, but this is because I actually like dark mornings, a preference I realize is not shared by the majority of the population and is hard to justify in the face of the standard "What about the little children?" argument.

This year I dealt with the time change by moving the clocks forward at midafternoon yesterday, not just before bedtime, so that the missing hour came out of Saturday daytime chores rather than Saturday evening leisure.  But because my computer is on British time (a necessity so that time offsets for scripts that scrape state DOT FTP servers are all of uniform sign) and so adheres to the EU DST schedule, I will have to deal with scripts running an hour behind for a week or two.

I reset my alarm clock before going to bed by hitting the DST button :)

I went to bed about 45 minutes early and woke up about 30 minutes late, "new time".

My alarm clock has such a complicated way to change to DST time that it's easier just to change the actual clock.

I went to bed at 4:30am and woke up at 11:30am, DST times.  I guess the time change really didn't affect me due to such late going-to-bed and waking up times! lol
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on March 11, 2018, 06:48:11 PM
My alarm clock is easy to reset.  Just put my phone on the dock and it syncs up.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 11, 2018, 07:36:42 PM
Now I have no chance of working in the dark until November when the time changes back. I too prefer later daylight hours when the sun sets closer to nine rather than 5:30 p.m.
I agree.  I like having daylight after I get out of work. Dark mornings don't bother me that much

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WHY WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 11, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
My alarm clock resets itself.  If Congress changes the DST dates, I'll just have to get a new alarm clock -- but that's a price I'd be willing to pay, if they changed USA DST dates to match the EU.

My watches are easy to reset, with a short twist of the crown.  Perhaps 2 seconds each.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on March 11, 2018, 07:39:18 PM
Now I have no chance of working in the dark until November when the time changes back. I too prefer later daylight hours when the sun sets closer to nine rather than 5:30 p.m.
I agree.  I like having daylight after I get out of work. Dark mornings don't bother me that much

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WHY WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!
AND THE PUPPIES AND KITTENS!!

Z981

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: J N Winkler on March 11, 2018, 07:55:34 PM
So while everyone wants to make a big deal about DST, you're really best to stay off the road from around mid-April thru the autumn, when fatals are higher.

That is not necessarily a correct interpretation of the log plot in question, which is based on crash count rather than crash rate.  The crash count has to be adjusted according to some measure of exposure, such as traffic volume, to get an accurate estimate of risk.  For a season-to-season comparison, AADT is not appropriate because it is averaged across the entire year.  The log plot is consistent with an individual driver having a lower risk of dying per VMT in the summer (more miles driven, but typically in much better weather conditions) and even a lower overall risk of dying in summer regardless of VMT (bigger driving population in the summer).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Road Hog on March 12, 2018, 02:28:46 AM
My phone system at work was set up on old DST and so the time was completely jacked up when the new DST rules went in effect in the Bush years. We just dealt with it until we switched the phones over a couple of years ago. I'm sure if something further happens, we'll deal again.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 12, 2018, 02:43:10 AM
My alarm clock resets itself.

As does mine. I'm surprised how few actually do this. Mine is a Sony bedside radio from like 2009. I'm not even sure it has a manual clock adjustment option.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: GenExpwy on March 12, 2018, 03:21:37 AM
My alarm clock resets itself.  If Congress changes the DST dates, I'll just have to get a new alarm clock -- but that's a price I'd be willing to pay, if they changed USA DST dates to match the EU.

About 10 years ago we got a clock radio that has auto-DST, and which could be re-programmed for new DST rules. It might be worth looking in the owner’s manual or on the manufacturer’s website.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 12, 2018, 06:24:20 AM
So while everyone wants to make a big deal about DST, you're really best to stay off the road from around mid-April thru the autumn, when fatals are higher.

That is not necessarily a correct interpretation of the log plot in question, which is based on crash count rather than crash rate.  The crash count has to be adjusted according to some measure of exposure, such as traffic volume, to get an accurate estimate of risk.  For a season-to-season comparison, AADT is not appropriate because it is averaged across the entire year.  The log plot is consistent with an individual driver having a lower risk of dying per VMT in the summer (more miles driven, but typically in much better weather conditions) and even a lower overall risk of dying in summer regardless of VMT (bigger driving population in the summer).

Two different factors.  You're trying to look at an overall risk vs the amount of traffic on the road.  However, the plot graph is simply looking at the individual risk of one walking out the door in the morning.  In this case, the chart is correct for what the author is trying to get across.  If he went with risk based on AADT, then as you mentioned the chart would probably be flipped...which would mean a different outcome for the week after the changeover to DST as well. 

But then, the point I'm making would still be accurate - driving in winter would probably be more dangerous than driving the week after the change to DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: J N Winkler on March 12, 2018, 12:12:48 PM
However, the plot graph is simply looking at the individual risk of one walking out the door in the morning.

It is not even doing that.  It is merely looking at crash count, full stop.  The walking-out-the-door risk depends on how many people you have walking out the door each season, and that is likely to be lower in winter as people curtail discretionary travel.

In this case, the chart is correct for what the author is trying to get across.  If he went with risk based on AADT, then as you mentioned the chart would probably be flipped...which would mean a different outcome for the week after the changeover to DST as well.

Actually, it would not.  The spike in crashes following DST is a local effect that occurs over a timescale too short for seasonal travel trends to take hold.  The chart therefore bolsters the argument that DST (or, rather, the changeover to DST in the spring) imposes an additional cost.

But then, the point I'm making would still be accurate - driving in winter would probably be more dangerous than driving the week after the change to DST.

That may very well be true.  It may even be true that the difference between the worst week in winter and the best week in summer is greater than the bump in the week following the DST change in spring.  But a key element of the author's argument is that the bump following the DST change is a loss that correlates to sleep deprivation and is avoidable by sticking to the same schedule year-round.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 12, 2018, 12:38:34 PM
It needs a good statistical study.  Comparing mid-January through March of 1974 with the same time periods in 1973 and 1975 would be a good place to start.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 12, 2018, 01:51:15 PM
These problems are far greater in the fall. The March change is roughly in the right place, but October/November is too late.

I agree - when you consider it as it's related to the solar equinoxes, the end of DST is too late. The beginning of DST occurs about 10 days before the spring equinox on March 21st. Therefore, the end of DST should be 10 days after the fall equinox - around October 1st.

Even better(!!!) just make the first day of Spring the first day of DST and the first day of fall the last day of DST. Problem solved!  :)

Though I'd hate to lose that hour of evening light at such a beautiful time of year, October mornings are very dark - almost darker than they are on the true shortest day of the year. I can't imagine how much more so that is in places to my west, such as Indiana.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 12, 2018, 02:04:50 PM
In that case, we can just view when DST started in later April, then early April, then early mid-March, and see what differences in fatals occurred based on the date.  Same can be done with the changeover back to regular time in the fall.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: inkyatari on March 12, 2018, 03:48:00 PM
I get an extra hour of daylight when I get home now!  Temperatures be damned, I'm getting on my bike!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Duke87 on March 12, 2018, 08:14:48 PM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.  I am not persuaded that it works for northern latitudes, at least the American way.

This depends on the schedule of the individual. I find the recent time change somewhat welcome since sunrise was getting to be too damn early for my liking.

Doing it a whole hour at once is somewhat jarring to one's circadian rhythms, though. Might be nice if there were a way to shift the clocks more gradually.


The interesting thing is, I make trips to Central time with some regularity. When I do this, the westbound gain and subsequent eastbound loss of an hour is something I barely notice. DST shifts, however... I notice, significantly. I see a couple reasons why this is different:
- with trips to Central Time, the gain or loss of an hour occurs during the day. This is easier to handle than gaining or losing an hour in the middle of the night because it impacts the length of an awake cycle rather than the length of a sleep cycle. Awake cycles are more flexible and don't cause any noticeable fatigue when shortened or lengthened by an hour.
- with trips to Central Time, the clock moves but so does the sun. So there isn't a sudden sense of disorientation caused by the number on the clock and the position of the sun in sky shifting by an hour relative to each other.


Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on March 12, 2018, 08:29:00 PM
Going from light to dark to light again morning-wise is just stupid.  To prefer that yo-yo doesn't seem to be very logical to me.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 12, 2018, 08:30:34 PM
DST does not work currently in eastern NY or New England.  It just starts to get light out and then you have to wake up in the dark again after the time change.  I am not persuaded that it works for northern latitudes, at least the American way.

This depends on the schedule of the individual. I find the recent time change somewhat welcome since sunrise was getting to be too damn early for my liking.

Doing it a whole hour at once is somewhat jarring to one's circadian rhythms, though. Might be nice if there were a way to shift the clocks more gradually.


The interesting thing is, I make trips to Central time with some regularity. When I do this, the westbound gain and subsequent eastbound loss of an hour is something I barely notice. DST shifts, however... I notice, significantly. I see a couple reasons why this is different:
- with trips to Central Time, the gain or loss of an hour occurs during the day. This is easier to handle than gaining or losing an hour in the middle of the night because it impacts the length of an awake cycle rather than the length of a sleep cycle. Awake cycles are more flexible and don't cause any noticeable fatigue when shortened or lengthened by an hour.
- with trips to Central Time, the clock moves but so does the sun. So there isn't a sudden sense of disorientation caused by the number on the clock and the position of the sun in sky shifting by an hour relative to each other.
You can also add associated unusual activities and schedules as clock-resetting factors for such trips. Getting to/from airport, exposure to low pressure on a plane, and non-routine nature of a trip in general may help. Once you get to bed at the end of the day, falling asleep at proper time for a new time zone is usually quite easy. That being said, 6-8 hours of jetlag can be harsh.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Duke87 on March 12, 2018, 09:02:09 PM
Going from light to dark to light again morning-wise is just stupid.  To prefer that yo-yo doesn't seem to be very logical to me.

I would not prefer such a yo-yo. My point is such a yo-yo effect is only really experienced in my location by people who are waking up before 07:00. That does not include me - I am waking up after sunrise both before and after the time shift, and am getting an extra hour of sunlight to actually be awake during out of it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 12, 2018, 09:13:57 PM
Going from light to dark to light again morning-wise is just stupid.  To prefer that yo-yo doesn't seem to be very logical to me.

Depends on your preference for sunrise (as Duke87 just mentioned). There was enough light to see by at 7:15 this morning (make that 7:00 for you easterners  :)).

That's not altogether unreasonable, considering (1) it's only an hour, during a time of day when many people are still asleep; (2) daylight overall is increasing fast enough to make it up in about a month; and (3) the extra light in the evening is decent compensation regardless.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on March 12, 2018, 09:15:49 PM
Going from light to dark to light again morning-wise is just stupid.  To prefer that yo-yo doesn't seem to be very logical to me.

Depends on your preference for sunrise (as Duke87 just mentioned). There was enough light to see by at 7:15 this morning (make that 7:00 for you easterners  :)).

That's not altogether unreasonable, considering (1) it's only an hour, during a time of day when many people are still asleep; (2) daylight overall is increasing fast enough to make it up in about a month; and (3) the extra light in the evening is decent compensation regardless.

See #2.  The yo-yo is unacceptable.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 12, 2018, 09:23:53 PM
See #2.  The yo-yo is unacceptable.

See (1) - Only if you're actually awake enough to characterize it as such  :-D
And it still beats 4am sunrise. I don't deny wishing there was a smoother way to transition, but there sure as heck isn't a better way I can think of.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 12, 2018, 09:35:23 PM
You want to adjust the clocks every week, 10 minutes at a time?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 12, 2018, 09:43:01 PM
You want to adjust the clocks every week, 10 minutes at a time?
Actually when the world was less connected people could start their day at dawn - or with some offset to dawn. That is equivalent to daily adjustment fo that many seconds. Difficult to do that these days, though.
But having less discrete timing, say 60 hourletts of 24 minutes a day would help both with better daylight saving adjustment and better matching of local time to timezone.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Duke87 on March 13, 2018, 12:10:23 AM
You want to adjust the clocks every week, 10 minutes at a time?

I would be okay with this.

Hell, adjust it two minutes a day every day from Feb 20th (21st in leap years) - Mar 21st and Sep 21st - Oct 20th. This would avoid any yoyo effect for most of the US, by keeping the amount of daily clock shift below the daily change in length of sunlight around the equinox.

And it would avoid any jarring sudden disruptions to people's circadian rhythms - it would merely be experienced as a month in which the time of sunrise barely changes (for latitudes in the 30s) or shifts relatively slowly (for latitudes in the 40s) but the time of sunset shifts relatively quickly.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on March 13, 2018, 12:23:53 AM
Well, since a solar year is 365.25 days, why not allocate the extra six hours over 365 days every year instead of adding a leap year?  Would add a little over 59 seconds every day if you allocate the extra 21,600 seconds over 365 days. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: slorydn1 on March 13, 2018, 12:50:06 AM
As a child until about 10 years old I lived in the far western end of the Eastern Time Zone. From 10-21 years old I lived in the far eastern end of the Central Time Zone, and have spent the last 27+ years pretty far east in the Eastern Time Zone.

I have vague memories of almost 10 pm sunsets in western Michigan as a child, especially around the 4th of July waiting for the fireworks to start. I can remember vividly not wanting to go to bed (my parents wanted me in bed NLT 8:30 pm) because it was still daylight out. I can also remember it still being dark when I got to school during the winter, and again for a week or 2 after the time change, even though it was in still April back then.

I don't remember that being an issue during my teenage years in Chicagoland. School started at 8:25 in elementary school, 9am in junior high (that was a private school that utilized the public school system's buses so they had to start later) and 8:45 in high school (private school in downtown Chicago). I did have a dark ride to get to school my junior and senior years because I was leaving so early from Schaumburg to get downtown, but it was bright sunlight by the time I exited the subway at the Chicago/State stop at around 8-8:05 am.

My youngest just graduated high school in January, and he had to wait by the bus stop in the dark during the deep winter months and again after the switch to DST, but its not an issue for him anymore.

My work schedule is such that it really doesn't matter if its standard time or daylight time, I switch between 12 hours of dayshift and 12 hours of night shift every 2 weeks. I was on my weekend off switching from days to nights this last change over and like jeffandnichole upthread I didn't go to bed until almost 5am Sunday so it was no big deal to me either way. The years I got stuck working night shift during the spring switchover it was cool because I only had to work 11 hours that night while the day crew bitched and whined that they lost an hour of sleep.

I am at the stage of my life all of my work and most of my recreational activities are indoors anyway so the exact time of sunrise and sunset have almost zero impact to me. I do, however, see and understand the strong feelings on both sides of this topic because to some people, their whole life revolves around how much sunlight they get and when it starts and stops.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 13, 2018, 06:26:11 AM
Well, since a solar year is 365.25 days, why not allocate the extra six hours over 365 days every year instead of adding a leap year?  Would add a little over 59 seconds every day if you allocate the extra 21,600 seconds over 365 days.
And you e d up with sunrise  at 9 pm by the next new year day. Yet another year, and  sun does up at 5 pm. Great for evening commute...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 13, 2018, 04:22:56 PM
Well, since a solar year is 365.25 days, why not allocate the extra six hours over 365 days every year instead of adding a leap year?  Would add a little over 59 seconds every day if you allocate the extra 21,600 seconds over 365 days.
And you e d up with sunrise  at 9 pm by the next new year day. Yet another year, and  sun does up at 5 pm. Great for evening commute...

I think (and hope) that was meant sarcastically...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Duke87 on March 14, 2018, 12:19:17 AM
I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

Not having a time change would avoid this, but... yeah I just can't get on board with doing away with DST because I don't want to lose an hour of useful daylight every day in the summer. On the other hand if we were to go about shifting time zones westward as Florida is trying to do (putting them in Atlantic Standard Time year round), that would make it more palatable.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on March 14, 2018, 05:23:34 AM
Go to UTC-4:30 year-round?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 14, 2018, 07:40:42 AM
I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I've always thought the calendar reform ideas are an interesting concept that stand almost no chance of becoming reality.

*Regarding the Computus issue, it'd be similar to what most of the Orthodox Churches do now because they determine the date of Easter via the Julian Calendar and then map it to the Gregorian Calendar.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 14, 2018, 08:11:23 AM
I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I've always thought the calendar reform ideas are an interesting concept that stand almost no chance of becoming reality.

*Regarding the Computus issue, it'd be similar to what most of the Orthodox Churches do now because they determine the date of Easter via the Julian Calendar and then map it to the Gregorian Calendar.
Calendar issues are more or less non-existant, with leap year being relatively easily accounted for and irregularities being quite infrequent. Daylight savings, however, is a constant nuisance - and to make it worse, it is not fully predictable as politicians love to play with the clock for whatever reasons.
I know that a big factory over here uses internal time, and equipment control system runs on EST the year round, no EDT.
On a separate, but similar notice - as far as I know, NavStar system (commonly referred to as GPS) does not accommodate leap seconds. Which are, like leap years, a result of natural cycles being not exactly proportional to human-made units. In fact solar system motion is somewhat chaotic... But as a result, GPS time is offset from observed time by, if I remember correctly, 15 seconds by now.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 14, 2018, 08:40:04 AM
For PSE&G electric customers in NJ who are on their RMS (Residential Load Management) Schedule, aka "White Meter", there is no DST.  The meters operate on EST year round.  So the peak hours are 7:00 am to 9:00 pm when we are on Standard time but 8:00 am to 10:00 pm when we are on DST.  So you have to adjust your heavy usage schedules accordingly.  A lot of customers don't know this.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on March 14, 2018, 09:00:20 AM
I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I once proposed a system that would only need two different calendars, a 365 day calendar and a 366 day calendar by having a day simply called "New Year's Day" between the last day of December (always Saturday) and the first day of January (always Sunday) that does not belong to a month nor a day of the week, with a "Leap Day," also not belonging to a month or a day of the week, following New Year's Day every four years.  My version had 31 days in January, March, July and October with 30 days the other months.

I was told the biggest reason this would never happen is that various religions would have a problem with a calendar that had extra days between the weekly holy day and thus messing up religious schedules.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 14, 2018, 10:13:36 AM
I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I once proposed a system that would only need two different calendars, a 365 day calendar and a 366 day calendar by having a day simply called "New Year's Day" between the last day of December (always Saturday) and the first day of January (always Sunday) that does not belong to a month nor a day of the week, with a "Leap Day," also not belonging to a month or a day of the week, following New Year's Day every four years.  My version had 31 days in January, March, July and October with 30 days the other months.

I was told the biggest reason this would never happen is that various religions would have a problem with a calendar that had extra days between the weekly holy day and thus messing up religious schedules.
As a matter of fact someone already tried that. USSR was running a 6-day "week" calendar in parallel with 7-day week in 1930-s, with "weekend" being 6,12,18, 24 and 30th of each month.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: J N Winkler on March 14, 2018, 10:45:58 AM
Imputed length of a year in the Gregorian calendar = 365.2425 days.

Actual length of a year = 365.2422 days.

Hence all the faff and bother with leap seconds and so on.

One of the few good things about DST-related time changes is that it forces correction of clock drift and also consideration of storing or discarding timepieces that are not serving a useful purpose.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 14, 2018, 11:19:34 AM
Quote
As a matter of fact someone already tried that. USSR was running a 6-day "week" calendar in parallel with 7-day week in 1930-s, with "weekend" being 6,12,18, 24 and 30th of each month.

Then there was the French Republican Calendar, which tried to do everything in terms of tens (a “décade” of ten days instead of a seven-day week, ten hours in a day, other weirdness). It had a number of problems and didn’t last long at all. A major reason it was formulated was part of the anti-religion aspects of the French Revolution and the Gregorian Calendar being seen as tied to religion.

As I type this, under that calendar the time is 4:72 and the date is 24 Ventôse CCXXVI.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 14, 2018, 12:12:11 PM
I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

Not having a time change would avoid this, but... yeah I just can't get on board with doing away with DST because I don't want to lose an hour of useful daylight every day in the summer. On the other hand if we were to go about shifting time zones westward as Florida is trying to do (putting them in Atlantic Standard Time year round), that would make it more palatable.

For data like that collected every 15 minutes, 24x7, I'd see if it was possible to use UTC instead of local civil time.  That's what astronomers do.

The railroads kept standard time year-round until the standardization of DST observance in the late 1960s.

Airlines that are big enough to operate in more than one time zone typically chose one time zone to schedule all their operations.  Of course in the public timetables they convert to local civil time.

Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on March 14, 2018, 12:40:37 PM
DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2018, 12:43:15 PM
DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 14, 2018, 12:49:52 PM
DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless.

It's really not that complicated, either. I'd prefer year-round DST to year-round standard time, but at the end of the day (no pun intended), the current setup is pretty close to optimal.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on March 14, 2018, 12:51:57 PM
DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless.

Year-round DST isn't even DST at all; it's just moving one time zone over.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 14, 2018, 01:41:24 PM
I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Eth on March 14, 2018, 01:44:09 PM
DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless.

It's really not that complicated, either. I'd prefer year-round DST to year-round standard time, but at the end of the day (no pun intended), the current setup is pretty close to optimal.

Same, except that I'd find year-round standard time far more amenable than year-round DST on account of being near the western edge of my time zone. If we did go to year-round DST, I think most of Georgia (everyone but the Savannah area, and heck, maybe even them) would push for a move to the Central time zone. Technically, by longitude, everything west of a line along roughly US 221 (US 441 south of Douglas) already should be.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: roadman on March 14, 2018, 01:49:13 PM
I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 14, 2018, 01:53:30 PM
Imputed length of a year in the Gregorian calendar = 365.2425 days.

Actual length of a year = 365.2422 days.

Hence all the faff and bother with leap seconds and so on.

One of the few good things about DST-related time changes is that it forces correction of clock drift and also consideration of storing or discarding timepieces that are not serving a useful purpose.

Nope. There are 2 separate cycles, daily earth rotation - about 24 hour, responsible for night and day; and annual orbit around the Sun, responsible for winter and summer.
Leap days take care of the fact that year is neither 365 (once every 4 years) nor 365.25 days (once every 100 years). In fact, astronomic year is not extremely stable with variations as much as 18 minutes during past 20 years. But, really, who cares? Worst comes to worst we'll have to add or remove leap year every 100 years or so.

Leap second is a result of earth's rotation slowing down - and being not exactly constant as well. Since astronomers are in charge, they insist on lunch at Greenwich observatory starting exactly at astronomic noon and not a second earlier. I couldn't care less if sun is 15 seconds off (and even a minute that is going to be accumulated over my lifetime, or 10 minutes..) for the sake of not touching the clock....
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 14, 2018, 01:57:15 PM
I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: roadman on March 14, 2018, 02:00:32 PM
I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.
How does moving the clocks back one half hour prevent everyone working from still working on 1 hour increments?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 14, 2018, 02:29:53 PM
DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless. 

I don't believe most people would elect to have it year-round.  It was extremely unpopular when year-round was actually tried.

Here at 47 degrees north, the morning commute is already in twilight a couple of weeks before and after the winter solstice and it's pretty unpleasant.  We don't need it to be months of twilight or full darkness for the commute.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 14, 2018, 02:35:44 PM
I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.
How does moving the clocks back one half hour prevent everyone working from still working on 1 hour increments?
Because if I am scheduling  a conference call for X o'clock sharp, everyone expect they will have that at .00
Going to half-hour increments breaks that pattern.
It is not a bad idea in general - but since everyone is used to whole hour steps...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2018, 02:43:08 PM
DST is pointless, but let's make it confusing and over-complicated, like IoT.

Being that most people want DST, and if given the option would elect to have it year-round, it's hardly pointless. 

I don't believe most people would elect to have it year-round.  It was extremely unpopular when year-round was actually tried.

Here at 47 degrees north, the morning commute is already in twilight a couple of weeks before and after the winter solstice and it's pretty unpleasant.  We don't need it to be months of twilight or full darkness for the commute.


And that is the problem.  There's a lot of people, here included, that hate switching times.  But regardless if you leave it at Standard time, Daylight time, or even :30, there's going to be issues people won't be happy with.

Now, when it was tried 40 years ago people hated it, so 4 decades later the result may be different.  But the problems will still exist.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on March 14, 2018, 02:47:06 PM
I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.

Isn't there some isolated time zone somewhere that's a half-hour off its neighbors? I'm pretty sure there was at one time, but not sure if it still exists or not.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on March 14, 2018, 02:54:04 PM
I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.

Isn't there some isolated time zone somewhere that's a half-hour off its neighbors? I'm pretty sure there was at one time, but not sure if it still exists or not.

Newfoundland, among others, as per this (https://www.timeanddate.com/time/time-zones-interesting.html) site.

But Nepal UTC +5:45 and New Zealand at +12:45 and +13:45 is mystifying. That's not marching to a different beat, but marching to two different drum kits.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 14, 2018, 03:00:28 PM
I would like to see a state by state referendum on DST.  Then we know how really popular it is or isn't and make changes accordingly.
Why do we even need a state by state referendum?  Just move the clocks back half an hour next fall and be done with it.  People will adjust and life will go on.
Most of the world lives on 1 hour increments to help with synchronizing events. Going to 30 min increments would look moronic. 
Moving time zone lines is much more realistic.

Isn't there some isolated time zone somewhere that's a half-hour off its neighbors? I'm pretty sure there was at one time, but not sure if it still exists or not.
India, due to English joke of up-side-down clock. Iran, I believe, and central Australia. There was even 45 minutes somewhere.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 14, 2018, 03:30:56 PM
There’s an area of central Australia around Eucla that uses an unofficial 45-minute time zone to reduce the time differential between that area and Perth and Adelaide. During standard time the difference from Perth to Adelaide is an hour and a half and during DST it’s two and a half hours because Western Australia doesn’t observe DST. (I suppose without the unofficial zone they’d be on the same time as Perth, so I guess it’s a nuisance being up against the other time zone boundary with such a big difference so they split the difference?)

Somewhere online there’s a picture of a road sign noting that time zone.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 14, 2018, 04:03:00 PM
People like DST in the summer, and they like standard time in the winter, but they don't like switching.  We need to give them lollipops.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Pete from Boston on March 14, 2018, 05:07:31 PM
I 100 percent dislike DST. It's a concept past its time (pun unintended)—one that seems to only create unnecessary difficulty in the modern information era. Most people don't live and work by the solar clock anymore. The US needs to drop the idiocy and either stick with standard time, or permanently move forward an hour.
But.. But.. But... KIDS! GO! TO! SCHOOL! IN! THE! DARK!!!!

Tradespeople generally start their day at sunrise in the winter.  Pushing sunrise an hour later would also cram a bunch more folks on the road together.

The year-round DST argument is an obvious one mostly to 9-to-5ers.  The rest of us, not so much.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 14, 2018, 07:13:18 PM
I was reminded while working today of another way that DST time changes screw things up - the fact that it creates days which are not 24 hours long. When trying to do analysis on a years' worth of data collected in 15-minute intervals, this becomes a bit of a headache to have to account for. Especially since the 23 and 25 hour days do not fall on the same calendar date each year.

....

The changing dates could be addressed via various calendar-reform proposals that would make all or substantially all the months the same length and then use "blank days"—days not assigned to a particular weekday, plus perhaps a couple of days assigned to weeks but not numbered as days of a month—to balance it out. The "Shire Calendar" from the Lord of the Rings (found in one of the appendices to "The Return of the King," or online via a Google search) is an example of this sort of thing. The Shire Calendar uses a fictional "Mid-year's Day" as the "blank day," but you could use New Year's Day if you wanted something more universal.

Of course, that sort of idea would run into a lot of opposition from religious people who believe the seven-day week is sacred and from people who would grouse about things like the dates of holidays (should US Independence Day still be observed on July 4? Do you need to adjust the Computus used to determine the date of Easter?*) or whose birthdays no longer exist (such as those of us born on the 31st of a month). Not to mention the calendar industry, of course, who make money off the way the dates change days change every year.

I've always thought the calendar reform ideas are an interesting concept that stand almost no chance of becoming reality.

*Regarding the Computus issue, it'd be similar to what most of the Orthodox Churches do now because they determine the date of Easter via the Julian Calendar and then map it to the Gregorian Calendar.
Calendar issues are more or less non-existant, with leap year being relatively easily accounted for and irregularities being quite infrequent. Daylight savings, however, is a constant nuisance - and to make it worse, it is not fully predictable as politicians love to play with the clock for whatever reasons.
I know that a big factory over here uses internal time, and equipment control system runs on EST the year round, no EDT.
On a separate, but similar notice - as far as I know, NavStar system (commonly referred to as GPS) does not accommodate leap seconds. Which are, like leap years, a result of natural cycles being not exactly proportional to human-made units. In fact solar system motion is somewhat chaotic... But as a result, GPS time is offset from observed time by, if I remember correctly, 15 seconds by now.

Notice I was responding specifically to the sentence highlighted in boldface in the post I was quoting. That's why I brought up the calendar reform issue. Obviously it's not an issue that's ever going to gain serious traction in society any time soon. I think there's a better chance of the USA adopting metric measurement than there is of the calendar being reformed!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on March 14, 2018, 07:17:35 PM
There’s an area of central Australia around Eucla that uses an unofficial 45-minute time zone to reduce the time differential between that area and Perth and Adelaide.
No, they split the difference between the two time zones to reduce the time difference to their near neighbours (anywhere along the road about 150 miles from the border either way though most of the small population is within 30 miles of the border) across the border.

They actually create a 45 minute time difference (105 for South Australia in summer) with their respective state capital - but as they are over 1000km away, it doesn't matter much to be on the same time as them. It matters a bit more that they aren't on the same time as their nearest towns - but even they are a long drive away (and they might go west or east) and so a time change isn't a problem even them.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Duke87 on March 14, 2018, 07:49:39 PM
For data like that collected every 15 minutes, 24x7, I'd see if it was possible to use UTC instead of local civil time.  That's what astronomers do.

I'm not the one collecting the source data, I have to work with it as is.
And actually that is itself part of the headache, since "as is" involves DST being handled differently in different datasets.

Also, while being presented data indexed to UTC would simplify life somewhat, for the particular analysis I am doing, the local time matters - so I can't just work wholly in UTC and ignore clock changes.

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on March 14, 2018, 08:41:40 PM
DST interferes with one portion of business at work. Our restaurant POS is set to run its daily closure routines at 2:45 a.m. every night. On the night that the time changes in the spring, the clock jumps from 1:59:59 directly to 3:00:00, and the server doesn't close that Saturday's business because 2:45 doesn't happen. Last year, I figured out the correct order to manually run the processes. This year, we're changing the time to 3:15 temporarily.

Why not change the process to 3:15 permanently?

In the US, having daily processes run between 1am and 3am is asking for trouble if the computers involved operate on observed local time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on March 14, 2018, 08:45:01 PM
Quote
As a matter of fact someone already tried that. USSR was running a 6-day "week" calendar in parallel with 7-day week in 1930-s, with "weekend" being 6,12,18, 24 and 30th of each month.

Then there was the French Republican Calendar, which tried to do everything in terms of tens (a “décade” of ten days instead of a seven-day week, ten hours in a day, other weirdness). It had a number of problems and didn’t last long at all. A major reason it was formulated was part of the anti-religion aspects of the French Revolution and the Gregorian Calendar being seen as tied to religion.

As I type this, under that calendar the time is 4:72 and the date is 24 Ventôse CCXXVI.
From what I've read, the reason metric time failed is because most people actually owned clocks, which were pretty expensive, and didn't want to replace them.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: bulldog1979 on March 14, 2018, 08:56:21 PM
DST interferes with one portion of business at work. Our restaurant POS is set to run its daily closure routines at 2:45 a.m. every night. On the night that the time changes in the spring, the clock jumps from 1:59:59 directly to 3:00:00, and the server doesn't close that Saturday's business because 2:45 doesn't happen. Last year, I figured out the correct order to manually run the processes. This year, we're changing the time to 3:15 temporarily.

Why not change the process to 3:15 permanently?

In the US, having daily processes run between 1am and 3am is asking for trouble if the computers involved operate on observed local time.

We did just shift it this week to move it back permanently. We'll have to see how it changes the auditors' workflows though. For one, it will mean a longer lunch break waiting for the reports to process and print. For the other, it could mean she ends up staying over at the end of her night because it pushes things back and she runs out of time at the end of her shift.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 14, 2018, 09:11:39 PM
Quote
As a matter of fact someone already tried that. USSR was running a 6-day "week" calendar in parallel with 7-day week in 1930-s, with "weekend" being 6,12,18, 24 and 30th of each month.

Then there was the French Republican Calendar, which tried to do everything in terms of tens (a “décade” of ten days instead of a seven-day week, ten hours in a day, other weirdness). It had a number of problems and didn’t last long at all. A major reason it was formulated was part of the anti-religion aspects of the French Revolution and the Gregorian Calendar being seen as tied to religion.

As I type this, under that calendar the time is 4:72 and the date is 24 Ventôse CCXXVI.
From what I've read, the reason metric time failed is because most people actually owned clocks, which were pretty expensive, and didn't want to replace them.

I read there were a whole host of issues: replacing clocks, difficulty dealing with people in other countries who followed the standard calendar and time, general resentment of a change from having a seven-day week with one day off to a ten-day décade with one day off, the calendar not being synced to an actual orbit around the sun because the year was to begin on the autumnal equinox and that doesn't fall on the same day every year, uncertainty as to exactly how leap years were to be calculated.....

It would be kind of neat to own a French Republican dual clock that showed both that time and regular time, but we have more important expenses.



Regarding Australian Central Western Time, here is that road sign I mentioned. I love the "WHY?" someone wrote on there.

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-05/11/1/enhanced/webdr12/enhanced-2798-1462944635-1.jpg)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 14, 2018, 09:18:58 PM

It would be kind of neat to own a French Republican dual clock that showed both that time and regular time, but we have more important expenses.
There should be an app for that... Or writing one should be fairly easy! :bigass:
Title: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 14, 2018, 10:22:40 PM

It would be kind of neat to own a French Republican dual clock that showed both that time and regular time, but we have more important expenses.
There should be an app for that... Or writing one should be fairly easy! :bigass:

There is. I have two. That’s how I knew the date and time. But the analog clocks look a lot more interesting!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180315/29a0d886adc95d4b7561f035f9154264.jpg)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on March 15, 2018, 01:29:31 PM
I've wondered why South Australia and Northern Territory are on that half hour offset.  Why not a full hour offset like it was when time zones were established?

I've also wondered why Saint Pierre and Miquelon is in UTC - 3 instead of UTC - 3.5 or UTC - 4.  The way it is now, it's like they're on DST in the winter and double DST in the summer.

The more I research the time zones everywhere, the more it seems like every single change (other than to end the practice of every single city deciding whether to follow DST individually) since they were first established has made things less logical than they were before.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 15, 2018, 02:03:15 PM
For Australia, just as general background, the states were poorly connected until relatively recently.  The distances were long and the roads were poor.  Each state had its own railroad, but there were different gauges and not connected until 1969.  That means that each state would be free to set their time zone to the closest approximation of solar time for their biggest city, rather than use one hour jumps.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: wxfree on March 15, 2018, 03:37:14 PM
I like the DST setup the way it is now, putting extra daylight in the evening when we have it to spare, and then conserving it for morning when there isn't enough to go around.  I don't mind the switch between the two, but a lot of people don't like it, so I have a solution.  Instead of changing times, in early spring, everyone stays on the same time but moves a few hundred miles to the west to enjoy the later sunset.  Then in late fall they move back to the east and take their clocks with them.  Coastal residents can take a cruise for the part of the year they move toward the water.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 15, 2018, 09:07:37 PM
I like the DST setup the way it is now, putting extra daylight in the evening when we have it to spare, and then conserving it for morning when there isn't enough to go around.  I don't mind the switch between the two, but a lot of people don't like it, so I have a solution.  Instead of changing times, in early spring, everyone stays on the same time but moves a few hundred miles to the west to enjoy the later sunset.  Then in late fall they move back to the east and take their clocks with them.  Coastal residents can take a cruise for the part of the year they move toward the water.

A modest proposal :)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on March 16, 2018, 11:38:28 AM
I like the DST setup the way it is now, putting extra daylight in the evening when we have it to spare, and then conserving it for morning when there isn't enough to go around.  I don't mind the switch between the two, but a lot of people don't like it, so I have a solution.  Instead of changing times, in early spring, everyone stays on the same time but moves a few hundred miles to the west to enjoy the later sunset.  Then in late fall they move back to the east and take their clocks with them.  Coastal residents can take a cruise for the part of the year they move toward the water.

A modest proposal :)


Also, if we consume one child per year, the school scheduling and overpopulation problem goes away entirely.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: slorydn1 on March 17, 2018, 02:00:32 AM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.


It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.


Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 17, 2018, 05:17:33 AM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 17, 2018, 08:51:22 AM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

Yep.  What the county is doing is illegal. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on March 17, 2018, 07:07:07 PM
It probably depends on whether he's paid hourly or salary, and whether he's entitled to full time and a half overtime, just straight time overtime, or no overtime at all.  And if they're going to give him overtime for the long day, are they going to dock his pay for the short one?  Seems like the issue is messy no matter how you do it... if you ignore it, it's fair if the number of long and short days is even, but not if someone works a different number of each due to dates of their employment.  And if you factor it in, depending on how you do it, the company might have to eat that hour, or employees will arbitrarily have a smaller paycheck one pay period.

Overtime rules can lead to interesting policies.  At my last job, employees were paid straight time, and we had flex time, so the only rule was that your hours worked and paid time off used needed to add to 80.  Interns, however, could not flex their time across weeks, because they were entitled to full time and a half overtime, so the accounting didn't work.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 18, 2018, 01:11:06 AM
It probably depends on whether he's paid hourly or salary, and whether he's entitled to full time and a half overtime, just straight time overtime, or no overtime at all.  And if they're going to give him overtime for the long day, are they going to dock his pay for the short one?  Seems like the issue is messy no matter how you do it... if you ignore it, it's fair if the number of long and short days is even, but not if someone works a different number of each due to dates of their employment.  And if you factor it in, depending on how you do it, the company might have to eat that hour, or employees will arbitrarily have a smaller paycheck one pay period.

At least with salaried employees in my area, there's no such thing as overtime. You work the hours they expect you to, and you get a paycheck in return. Whether a week is short or long isn't typically relevant.

I suppose most of these issues are avoided by having the fall-back/spring-forward times on Sunday mornings, when virtually no one is working.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: slorydn1 on March 18, 2018, 04:50:00 AM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

There are a couple of twists I forgot to tell you about:

Our work week starts on Wednesday and ends on Tuesday. So week 1 of the pay period we work Wed and Thurs, off the weekend, work Mon and Tues. Week 2 we work Fri, Sat, and Sun. That's 48 hours week 1, 36 hours week 2. I get comp time, not cash overtime-unless I hit a certain number of hours of comp, I forgot how much, but I never get to that number because it gets burned off by taking lunches, going home early, taking days off, (etc). So week one I get 8 x 1.5 hrs (12 hrs) added to my account and week 2 I get 4 hours deducted from my account because we have to show at least 40 hrs each week.

Working the time shift weekend means 35 hours in the spring, 37 hours in the fall. What we used to have to do was put down 35 hrs worked week 2 (only 11 hrs for that Saturday night/Sunday morning) and burn 5 hrs of comp time to get it to the 40 hrs we get paid. In November we would have put 13 hrs down for that Saturday night/Sunday morning to equal 37 hours and burn only 3 hrs of comp. But now we don't have to, and it all comes out in the wash anyway (8 hrs burned over the course of the year, either way).


Note: I underline "we don't have to" because I could do so, if I chose, to go back to doing it that way-but I have a tendency to fill out my time sheets ahead of time unless I'm going on vacation or something like that where I need to do something different than my usual totaling up-its just easier for me.


Now, if I had some training or something that I had to come in for on one of those off days and that put me at or over 40 hours of work for that week, that might or might not change my thinking. I'm really not worried about it either way because my pay check is going to be the same, its just a floating number of hours on the side that ebbs and flows that I can use to not come to work and still get paid, and not use my vacation/sick/holiday time for.


Oh and vdeane, although it may sound like it because of the way I get paid, I technically am not salaried. My boss is, and his time sheet doesn't have a break down by day, just for the week. He has to certify that he worked at least 40 hrs or burn his vacation/sick/holiday time to get to that number for the week. He does not get comp time. My time sheet has a breakdown by each day worked during the week, but I don't "clock in". I just write down the number of hours worked each day and total it up from there.


Our system was really set up for the Monday through Friday 8a-5p (an hour off for lunch), no nights weekends, holidays or hurricanes the majority of the"non essential" employees work. Law enforcement, detention, and firefighters, though essential, are exempt from overtime the way most people understand overtime to work (there is a whole different way they get figured out where things like Kelly time gets factored in before they see a second of overtime that is so confusing I'm not even sure I get it). Those of us in 911 are considered "civilian" essential employees so we are governed under the rules of overtime most people think of but we do comp instead of cash. I don't know the total number of employees the county has, I am guessing well over 500 though, and there are only 13 of us who get regular overtime and are not exempt "Kelly" employees.


In any event, the last two years I did not work either of the "time shift" weekends so I haven't been affected either way.





Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 18, 2018, 07:14:49 PM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

In my workplace, reporting hours that are not true for that day would be seen as fraud.

We don't always assign the same worker to overnight shifts.  It would be sheer luck if a spring-forward overnight shift worker also worked the fall-back shift.  And regardless, overtime and wages for hourly workers are based on the scheduled work week, not what might happen seven months later.

Maybe we should always assign salaried workers to the overnight shift :)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 18, 2018, 07:30:36 PM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

In my workplace, reporting hours that are not true for that day would be seen as fraud.

We don't always assign the same worker to overnight shifts.  It would be sheer luck if a spring-forward overnight shift worker also worked the fall-back shift.  And regardless, overtime and wages for hourly workers are based on the scheduled work week, not what might happen seven months later.

Maybe we should always assign salaried workers to the overnight shift :)

Whatever it worth, here is a quote from e-mail sent out by our HR:
Quote
when the clocks go forward one hour, and employees only work 11 hours instead of 12 hours on the overnight shift, they are only paid for the 11 hours or the time they actually worked.  Please consider allowing employees to use their accruals for the hour missed or allow them to stay an extra hour after their shift is scheduled to end to make up the hour. [...]must follow A-21 and A-133 regulations, we do not have the liberty to "give" time not worked.
As far as I understand, this refers to federal Office of Management and Budget (OMB) documents.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 19, 2018, 12:21:39 AM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

There are a couple of twists I forgot to tell you about:
...
...

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ed1675bfeebdc92e4fdd1f701a0f501e/tenor.gif?itemid=4981184)

MUCH simpler where I work. Pay periods are 1st to 15th, 16th to end of month. OT is calculated on the current week, regardless if they pay period ends mid-week.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Duke87 on March 19, 2018, 12:34:14 AM
Yep.  What the county is doing is illegal.

Against the letter of the law but not necessarily the spirit of it since it is, overall, a wash.

This is also one of those things that it can be illegal all it wants, that doesn't matter unless there is a desire to actually enforce the law in this case, which I'm guessing there is not. The limited resources of the state labor department have bigger fish to fry than going after employers for not accounting for DST in the officially sanctioned manner.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on March 19, 2018, 05:59:28 AM
At least with salaried employees in my area, there's no such thing as overtime. You work the hours they expect you to, and you get a paycheck in return. Whether a week is short or long isn't typically relevant.

A distinction that is important to make: Most salaried employees are also classified as "FLSA exempt", which is the real reason they get no overtime; it has nothing to do with salary/hourly pay setup. To qualify as FLSA exempt, an employee must meet at least one of several criteria, the long list of which isn't terribly relevant to most people. Most exempt employees are classified as such by meeting the criteria for being a professional, administrative, or executive employee. That is, management or white-collar workers. You can't give a cashier a salary and then not pay them overtime—they still qualify for it under FLSA despite the salary. (All you did is make the math way more complicated because now you have to figure out how to pay time-and-a-half on a salary.)

This is also one of those things that it can be illegal all it wants, that doesn't matter unless there is a desire to actually enforce the law in this case, which I'm guessing there is not. The limited resources of the state labor department have bigger fish to fry than going after employers for not accounting for DST in the officially sanctioned manner.

Not necessarily—in labor disputes it's often an issue of squeaky wheels getting the grease. Most abuses are allowed to stand not because of a lack of resources by the enforcement agencies, but ignorance on the affected employees' part that laws are being broken in the first place, or reluctance to confront the employer in fear of retaliation. Wage-and-hour violations are usually pretty clear cut—you either paid someone correctly or you didn't—so it's a fairly attractive target for a state agency to swoop in and assess a fine. They have to know about it first, though.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 19, 2018, 06:24:59 AM
On the NJ Turnpike, it turned out they are more lenient than most based on what I've read thru the years, including in this thread.  For those affected, in the Spring they still get their full 8 hour shift pay, even though they only worked 7 hours.  In the fall, they get 9 hours pay, since they worked an additional 1 when the clocks fell back.  If this pushed anyone into OT status (or if they already were in the OT status), then they get OT.  Since most full timers work during the week and only part timers were working the weekend, this didn't generally come into play.

Yep.  What the county is doing is illegal.
Against the letter of the law but not necessarily the spirit of it since it is, overall, a wash.

No...it's againt the letter.  If it was in spirit, employers could start working employees 50 or 60 hours a week, only to cut them back to 20 or 30 hours the next week. Or...even worse, you could wind up working 20 hours one week, and the employer can say to make up for it you can work 60 hours the next week, and not get paid overtime.  There's also the need that the employer would need to stay employed and work the same shift 9 months later.   And then there's always the probability the employee was hired sometime between mid-March and October, who didn't get a free hour in the spring.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on March 19, 2018, 10:34:07 AM
Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!
(https://i.imgur.com/bLeDECs.png)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 19, 2018, 10:48:00 AM
Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!
(https://i.imgur.com/bLeDECs.png)


But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 19, 2018, 11:25:12 AM
Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!
(https://i.imgur.com/bLeDECs.png)


But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!

resolving algorithm:
1. define criteria: latest sunrise time acceptable, earliest sunset time acceptable, etc..
2. determine sunrise and sunset times for different time zone settings
3. realize anything would make many people unhappy
4. Send B-52 with nukes to make problem non-existent
5. Proceed to a next location
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 19, 2018, 01:12:18 PM

resolving algorithm:
1 - Infinity: realize anything would make many people unhappy
Bonus: Send B-52 with nukes to make problem non-existent

Fixed.  :sombrero:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 19, 2018, 01:19:27 PM
Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!
(https://i.imgur.com/bLeDECs.png)


But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!

Yes.  Sunrise times after 8:00 AM should be avoided, even if it means the evening commute is in darkness.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 19, 2018, 01:37:01 PM

Yes.  Sunrise times after 8:00 AM should be avoided, even if it means the evening commute is in darkness.
Now behold the issue:
minimal day length at my latitude is 9 hours. Two cities at approximately same latitude in same Eastern time zone are Grand Rapids MI at 85.6 W and Portland ME at 70.4 W, meaning that they have just more than an hour astronomic time difference between two.
If you say that Grand Rapids shouldn't get sunrise after 8 (actually it has 8.15, but that is almost good enough), Portland gets sunrise at 7 - and 9 hours later, at 4 PM, sun goes down. Portland is not very happy about that.
Did I mention robbing Peter to pay Paul? It was somewhat similar experience... 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 19, 2018, 01:54:02 PM
Should wanting DST be considered a moral weakness?

Everyone should want the Sun directly overhead at Noon and then accept naturally resulting sunrise and sunset times.

Anyone who wants more sunlight in the evening should realize that they would be taking it away from the morning with DST not some how manufacturing more of it.

Let Noon be Noon!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on March 19, 2018, 02:14:29 PM
If everyone woke up at 1pm like I do then their morning commute would never be in darkness!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 19, 2018, 02:38:21 PM
If everyone woke up at 1pm like I do then their morning commute would never be in darkness!

Dang, I wish I had that schedule!  :sombrero:
But don't forget that evening commutes account for 50%, too. So you've got a 50% average, whereas my commutes (7:00-7:30 and 4:30-5:00) are closer to 80-85% done in the light, and 100% from April to September.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kj3400 on March 19, 2018, 02:41:50 PM
If everyone woke up at 1pm like I do then their morning commute would never be in darkness!
Hear hear!
There's also the added bonus of almost no traffic on the road when you head home.
The only negative to this is that when you get off nothing's open.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on March 19, 2018, 02:55:29 PM
If everyone woke up at 1pm like I do then their morning commute would never be in darkness!

Dang, I wish I had that schedule!  :sombrero:

Come join us in the casino industry then! Get off at 11pm, go to bed at 3am! Have Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday off!

If everyone woke up at 1pm like I do then their morning commute would never be in darkness!
Hear hear!
There's also the added bonus of almost no traffic on the road when you head home.
The only negative to this is that when you get off nothing's open.

You gradually learn what is open when you get off and tailor your business habits accordingly. Norman has a 24-hour grocery store (Crest) that isn't Walmart, which is fantastic. There are several fast-food restaurants that are either 24 hour or close at something like 1am. And, of course, the internet is always open.

The weird thing is on your days off, all of a sudden these places you were barely aware existed because they're never open actually are, and it's really disorienting having the extra options. (Wait, I can actually eat at Wendy's?)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on March 19, 2018, 07:22:07 PM
Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!
But look at that luxury 7:09am sunrise time. London sees an hour less daylight on the solstice - 4 minutes less in the evening, but 55 minutes less in the morning. The pre-4pm sunsets are grim, but the post-8am dawns are worse.

I'm currently enjoying the 6am sunlight (aided by the ground being white the last couple of days making everything brighter) and don't particular look forward to it not arriving until 7am next Sunday. However I'm also enjoying the 6pm sunlight and am looking forward to it being 7pm next Sunday. The balance just about tips in favour, for me, at that point - if I can have it light for only one 6-7 in the day, then evening takes it by a hair. But faced with a terrible choice of having light at either 8.30am or 4.30pm, am takes it by far, just as pm takes it when it is 4.30am or 8.30pm!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 19, 2018, 10:30:51 PM
Should wanting DST be considered a moral weakness?

Everyone should want the Sun directly overhead at Noon and then accept naturally resulting sunrise and sunset times.

Anyone who wants more sunlight in the evening should realize that they would be taking it away from the morning with DST not some how manufacturing more of it.

Let Noon be Noon!

In my experience very people care about noon being when the sun is right overhead, but a lot care about there being at least a little light in the sky when they get up.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Eth on March 20, 2018, 08:37:04 AM
Should wanting DST be considered a moral weakness?

Everyone should want the Sun directly overhead at Noon and then accept naturally resulting sunrise and sunset times.

Anyone who wants more sunlight in the evening should realize that they would be taking it away from the morning with DST not some how manufacturing more of it.

Let Noon be Noon!

In my experience very people care about noon being when the sun is right overhead, but a lot care about there being at least a little light in the sky when they get up.


Yeah, I'd care more about solar noon and nominal noon matching if noon were actually close to the midpoint of my day. I tend to be awake most days from around 7 AM to 11 PM, meaning "midday" for me would be around 3 PM. Of course, if the sun were directly overhead then, it would always be very dark when I woke up. Today, under DST, the sun will be directly overhead here at about 1:45, which I think makes for a good compromise.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 20, 2018, 11:18:02 AM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

Yep.  What the county is doing is illegal.

Not necessarily.  My wife works for a local municipality part-time and her straight time/overtime is calculated on an annual basis.  Since she doesn't get PTO, if she wants to take a week off, she can make up the hours during the rest of the month, or even in another month.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 20, 2018, 12:20:06 PM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

Yep.  What the county is doing is illegal.

Not necessarily.  My wife works for a local municipality part-time and her straight time/overtime is calculated on an annual basis.  Since she doesn't get PTO, if she wants to take a week off, she can make up the hours during the rest of the month, or even in another month.

Their policy doesn't make it legal.

If someone is working more than 40 hours per week and works on a per-hour basis, they should be getting overtime.  Even if there's an agreement in place, it can still be afoul of regulations.  I would also think that this is a verbal agreement too, especially if it would put someone over 40 hours.

Now, that all said - does this happen? Sure.  A lot.  But there's a difference between what employee and employers agree to, and what is the law.  And it's certainly not unheard of for someone to file or participate in a lawsuit years later, claiming they worked more than 40 hours and weren't compensated for it. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 20, 2018, 01:49:43 PM
Laws vary from state to state.  I wouldn't make claims about any state I hadn't worked in.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 20, 2018, 02:33:51 PM
Laws vary from state to state.  I wouldn't make claims about any state I hadn't worked in.
Original statement included county doing this and that. Since county is more than likely to get some federal funding (grants and what not), there has to be some compliance with OMB requirements, making it more uniform.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 20, 2018, 02:36:58 PM
Workplaces that have workers on the overnight shift during fallback night in the fall may have some issues too.  If an employee usually works Saturday night at 10 PM until 6 AM Sunday it's usually 8 hours, but during fallback night it's 9 hours and they're entitled to overtime.

It's not really a problem. What we do at our agency is write down the 12 hours we usually work regardless. So if I work the spring one I'm only working 11 hours, but I'll make up for it in November by working 13, so over the course of the year it all balances out.

Back in the day we used to put down 11 and 13 but it was decided to just have us put down the same 12 either way. It saved the county a half hour of comp time and we don't get shorted because the other week is short by 1 hour.

Unless I missed something, OT is calculated for the work week, not over the course of an entire year. In the fall, an employee that normally works 40 hours works 41, and is entitled to overtime pay for that extra hour. Just because it's an hour made up that was previously lost in March doesn't mean he's not entitled to the OT pay. He still worked a longer-than-normal week.

Yep.  What the county is doing is illegal.

Not necessarily.  My wife works for a local municipality part-time and her straight time/overtime is calculated on an annual basis.  Since she doesn't get PTO, if she wants to take a week off, she can make up the hours during the rest of the month, or even in another month.

Their policy doesn't make it legal.

If someone is working more than 40 hours per week and works on a per-hour basis, they should be getting overtime.  Even if there's an agreement in place, it can still be afoul of regulations.  I would also think that this is a verbal agreement too, especially if it would put someone over 40 hours.

Now, that all said - does this happen? Sure.  A lot.  But there's a difference between what employee and employers agree to, and what is the law.  And it's certainly not unheard of for someone to file or participate in a lawsuit years later, claiming they worked more than 40 hours and weren't compensated for it. 
Laws vary from state to state.  I wouldn't make claims about any state I hadn't worked in.

It's hard to believe that there's a state that allows workers to work more than 40 hours a week without additional compensation.

As for oddities, I signed an agreement with my employer that allows me to skip breaks. I'm a valet for the time being, and we have downtime between each car. So we signed an agreement acknowledging that downtime, and that we don't need to take a mandated 30 minute break. I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on March 20, 2018, 10:55:08 PM
Should wanting DST be considered a moral weakness?

Everyone should want the Sun directly overhead at Noon and then accept naturally resulting sunrise and sunset times.

Anyone who wants more sunlight in the evening should realize that they would be taking it away from the morning with DST not some how manufacturing more of it.

Let Noon be Noon!

Should wanting DST be considered a moral weakness?

Everyone should want the Sun directly overhead at Noon and then accept naturally resulting sunrise and sunset times.

Anyone who wants more sunlight in the evening should realize that they would be taking it away from the morning with DST not some how manufacturing more of it.

Let Noon be Noon!

In my experience very people care about noon being when the sun is right overhead, but a lot care about there being at least a little light in the sky when they get up.


I don't give a crap when the sun is directly overhead. That doesn't have any impact on me.

And I don't need daylight in the mornings. In the mornings, I'm being awakened by an alarm clock, taking a shower, and then getting dressed and going to work. I don't need daylight for any of that.

I'd rather have my daylight when I get home in the evenings, to allow me to be able to do a few things outside before it gets dark. And in the winter, on standard time, it being nearly dark by the time I leave work and pretty much dark when I get home is downright depressing. I'd still rather it be dark in the mornings.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on March 21, 2018, 01:51:57 AM
Laws vary from state to state.  I wouldn't make claims about any state I hadn't worked in.

FLSA is a federal law.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on March 21, 2018, 08:41:45 AM
It's hard to believe that there's a state that allows workers to work more than 40 hours a week without additional compensation.

"that allows non-exempt workers to work more than 40 hours a week".

There are a bunch of us out there who are exempt from overtime requirements.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on March 21, 2018, 09:27:20 AM
The national pastime is baseball.  A typical start time for a MLB night game is 7:10pm.  The average length of an MLB game is 3 hours, 5 minutes, and 11 seconds…. but longer games can stretch out to 4 hours.   So the game is over around 11 o’clock.  After watching the top stories of their local 11 o’clock news, people are ready for bed.  While TV streaming services are breaking down this structured routine, people still want to feel plugged in and watch these “live” events.  It’s not just sports… some people might want to watch that live 2-hour bachelor finale so they can gossip all about it the next day with their coworkers.

The point is most American’s don’t base their sleep schedule on sunrise/sunset times.  People go to bed after their favorite television program is over… and prime-time programming ends at 11pm.   So a typical American’s sleep schedule is most likely something like this… go to bed at 11pm, get 7 hours sleep, wake up at 6am for work/school.  Would year-round DST favor the typical American’s sleep schedule?  Even with year-round DST it still favors morning people.  Just look at this chart again... what percentage of American’s are sleeping at 6PM?  Compared to the percentage of American’s asleep at 8AM it’s not that high.

(https://i.imgur.com/bLeDECs.png)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US 89 on March 21, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
People go to bed after their favorite television program is over… and prime-time programming ends at 11pm.

Only in the Eastern or Pacific time zone. In the Central and Mountain time zones, as well as Alaska and Hawaii, prime time ends at 10 PM.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on March 21, 2018, 04:31:26 PM
Even with year-round DST it still favors morning people.
Of course year-round DST favours morning people inherently - DST is about helping morning people not fall asleep during those late-finishing baseball games (which is surely hard work even for evening people - there's a reason they have big organs playing during baseball :)), etc, while going back in winter is about having it that evening people can still, just about, get up in the morning for work.

Evening people can do stuff long after dark - that's what makes them evening people! Morning people wake up earlier because they need less light in the morning before waking up.
Quote
what percentage of American’s are sleeping at 6PM?  Compared to the percentage of American’s asleep at 8AM it’s not that high
Indeed - which is why the industrialised temperate (ie no siestas) world went with a 9-5 day - we naturally get tired after-dark, but are not done with sleep until after-dawn (that might not be a continuous block during the night, and there might be an afternoon nap).

That more people are asleep 4-5 hours before solar noon than 5-6 hours after shows that we don't actually need light evenings as much as light mornings. Yes, morning people need light evenings more and evening people need light mornings more, but we aren't awake dawn-til-dusk, with noon in the middle. That doesn't mean that the sun is irrelevant - it very much is, but that our day is meant to be shifted towards the after-noon, so we should shift our days earlier (compared to the sun) with great care.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 21, 2018, 04:41:32 PM
People really stay up just to watch the news?  I thought following broadcast schedules was a thing of the past.
My bedtime routine is a few pages of a relaxing book to take me away from the troubles of the day, not add to it with Trump's latest tweet.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Pete from Boston on March 22, 2018, 12:21:31 AM
Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!
(https://i.imgur.com/bLeDECs.png)


But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!

resolving algorithm:
1. define criteria: latest sunrise time acceptable, earliest sunset time acceptable, etc..
2. determine sunrise and sunset times for different time zone settings
3. realize anything would make many people unhappy
4. Send B-52 with nukes to make problem non-existent
5. Proceed to a next location

#3 is the only constant, which is why I urge people to walk away from the whole thing, but the social engineer in too many of us can't seem to give up.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 22, 2018, 07:19:38 AM

#3 is the only constant, which is why I urge people to walk away from the whole thing, but the social engineer in too many of us can't seem to give up.
Yep, setting clock fixed and walking away would work. Twice a year disruptive clock change isva good way to keep triggering people...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on March 22, 2018, 08:32:50 AM
The only answer that would make anyone happy with time changes are 6-hour schooldays and workdays. No more clock meddling!

I think many of us can live with that proposal.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 22, 2018, 08:52:04 AM
I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.

"Anyone seen Jake lately?"

"Yeah, he's taking another 'break' in that Porsche over there."
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 22, 2018, 12:38:04 PM
I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.

"Anyone seen Jake lately?"

"Yeah, he's taking another 'break' in that Porsche over there."

Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 22, 2018, 02:16:34 PM
The Canadian province of Saskatchewan, for some unknown reason, does not observe DST at all.

If this thread keeps going until November, we won't need to start a new one then  :D
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 22, 2018, 02:39:42 PM
I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.

"Anyone seen Jake lately?"

"Yeah, he's taking another 'break' in that Porsche over there."

(https://media.giphy.com/media/5wWf7GR2nhgamhRnEuA/giphy.gif)

Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

No fucking way I'd touch that car.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on March 22, 2018, 03:11:31 PM
The Canadian province of Saskatchewan, for some unknown reason, does not observe DST at all.

If this thread keeps going until November, we won't need to start a new one then  :D

DST is less beneficial to states/provinces on the western edge of a timezone.  These locations already experience later sunsets than states/provinces on the eastern edge of a time zone.  If you look at a DST map of North America, Saskatchewan is really more in line with the Mountain Time Zone than the Central Time Zone.  But since Saskatchewan is on the "extreme" western edge of the Central Time Zone, they don't really benefit from DST because they already get late sunsets in the summer.  Even without DST, people from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan enjoy summer solstice sunsets at 9:31pm.  With DST the sun would go down at 10:31pm.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/1c/ac/f41cace7de9114ecce9d54f56430a93f.jpg)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 22, 2018, 03:36:44 PM
That map appears to be slightly out of date in that since 2015 Quintana Roo observes what in the US is called Eastern Standard Time year-round (Mexico calls the time zone Southeastern, or I guess whatever the Spanish equivalent is) without DST.

The map does underscore the absurdity of Florida ever being on Atlantic Time (or the equivalent of whatever would be an hour ahead of Washington and New York).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 22, 2018, 03:41:59 PM
That map appears to be slightly out of date in that since 2015 Quintana Roo observes what in the US is called Eastern Standard Time year-round (Mexico calls the time zone Southeastern, or I guess whatever the Spanish equivalent is) without DST.

The map does underscore the absurdity of Florida ever being on Atlantic Time (or the equivalent of whatever would be an hour ahead of Washington and New York).
Honestly speaking, I don't see a good reason for time zone lines to go strictly north-south if we're aiming at best utilizing daylight, not the ease of astronomic observations.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 22, 2018, 03:52:27 PM
That map appears to be slightly out of date in that since 2015 Quintana Roo observes what in the US is called Eastern Standard Time year-round (Mexico calls the time zone Southeastern, or I guess whatever the Spanish equivalent is) without DST.

The map does underscore the absurdity of Florida ever being on Atlantic Time (or the equivalent of whatever would be an hour ahead of Washington and New York).
Honestly speaking, I don't see a good reason for time zone lines to go strictly north-south if we're aiming at best utilizing daylight, not the ease of astronomic observations.

I don't disagree with that. I was just trying to comment—perhaps not very effectively—on how much further west Florida is than people generally realize.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Brandon on March 22, 2018, 04:02:27 PM
Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

No fucking way I'd touch that car.

If you had access to a car like this, would you take it back right away?

Neither would I.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on March 22, 2018, 05:10:57 PM
I don't disagree with that. I was just trying to comment—perhaps not very effectively—on how much further west Florida is than people generally realize.

Here's an interesting graphic that might help put things in context:

http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV2.png

It's a map showing the difference between standard time and solar time around the world.

We also have this:
https://bostonraremaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/BRM2573-Chicago_Alton-RR-1884_lowres-3000x2153.jpg

...which shows the railroads' original time zone boundaries.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 22, 2018, 05:30:11 PM
Here's an interesting graphic that might help put things in context:

http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV2.png

It's a map showing the difference between standard time and solar time around the world.

That is a helpful map.  Indiana is in the wrong time zone.  But not as wrong as Argentina.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 22, 2018, 05:34:08 PM
Here's an interesting graphic that might help put things in context:

http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV2.png

It's a map showing the difference between standard time and solar time around the world.

That is a helpful map.  Indiana is in the wrong time zone.  But not as wrong as Argentina.
There is no right and wrong here. There may be wrong scheduling.

I am OK with my lunch break being somewhat after astronomic noon, and (assuming break is in the middle of a work day) would be fine with break starting at 10 and workday starting at 6 - if solar noon is at 9.30. Wouldn't you be OK with that?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on March 22, 2018, 06:20:35 PM
Here's another interesting map showing the hours of daylight during the winter solstice.  While Florida already gets about 2 more hours of daylight than some of the northern lower 48 states, Florida is the state actively pursing year-round DST in their legislator.  Of course the weather in Florida can still be quite pleasant in December, whereas people in the northern states are hibernating for the winter... not many people in North Dakota are having BBQs in mid-December where people in Florida would enjoy a few more BBQs during the pleasant winter evenings. 

(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/files/2016/06/Daylight-hours-winter-solstice.jpg&w=1484)

The argument against year-round DST is that the children would have to wait for the bus in the dark during the winter months.  Well guess what... if you live in a state on the western edge of a timezone a lot of kids ALREADY have to wait for the bus in the dark.  The point is all these arguments for why DST is good/bad are pretty arbitrary.  An argument that may apply for people on the border of Indiana may not apply to the people on the border of Illinois (ie. the timezone line).  Since so many of these arguments become arbitrary, Congress should just pick a time system that doesn't involve changing the clocks twice a year and stick with it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on March 22, 2018, 06:47:45 PM
A state by state solution would be best.  What's good for the people in Maine wouldn't be what's best for those in Indiana even though they are in the same time zone.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 22, 2018, 06:55:16 PM
Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

No fucking way I'd touch that car.

If you had access to a car like this, would you take it back right away?

Neither would I.

Look, we're not like the valets in Ferris Bueller. I like my job and wouldn't want to risk it by doing something stupid.

Now, with that in mind, our route from the garage to the hotel is about 4 blocks, so I would thoroughly enjoy it for that distance. Assuming it's not painfully confusing to operate.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: slorydn1 on March 22, 2018, 11:15:24 PM
The more I think about it the time change from ST to DT (and back) is a good thing.

If we do away with it either way, how on Earth are we going to get people to change the batteries in their smoke detectors twice a year? Think of all the children that would be lost in massive conflagrations because their smoke detectors didn't activate.  Oh the horror of it all! :happy:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on March 22, 2018, 11:36:53 PM
The more I think about it the time change from ST to DT (and back) is a good thing.

If we do away with it either way, how on Earth are we going to get people to change the batteries in their smoke detectors twice a year? Think of all the children that would be lost in massive conflagrations because their smoke detectors didn't activate.  Oh the horror of it all! :happy:

But the conflagrations would help them see while they're waiting for the bus in the dark!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 22, 2018, 11:55:03 PM
Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

No fucking way I'd touch that car.

If you had access to a car like this, would you take it back right away?

Neither would I.

Look, we're not like the valets in Ferris Bueller. I like my job and wouldn't want to risk it by doing something stupid.

Now, with that in mind, our route from the garage to the hotel is about 4 blocks, so I would thoroughly enjoy it for that distance. Assuming it's not painfully confusing to operate.

I know, I got nothin' to worry about, you're a professional.  ;)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on March 23, 2018, 01:40:21 PM
Apparently, Indiana thinks it's in the correct time zone. They haven't attempted to move from ET to CT.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Brandon on March 23, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
Apparently, Indiana thinks it's in the correct time zone. They haven't attempted to move from ET to CT.

Depends on county.  NW and SW Indiana are on CT, not ET.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 23, 2018, 02:23:02 PM
Apparently, Indiana thinks it's in the correct time zone. They haven't attempted to move from ET to CT.

Depends on county.  NW and SW Indiana are on CT, not ET.
They are with Chicago more than on CT. If IL decides they need Pacific time zone, guess what NW IN would do...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on March 23, 2018, 03:16:57 PM
I don't see DST being abolished because if it were the sun would rise at 4:25 am in NYC on the summer solstice (with civil twilight starting at 3:51am) and set at 7:30 pm (with civil twilight ending at 8:04pm).  With last call in NYC being at 4 am, people filing out of the bars would already be encountering civil twilight.  Who wants the sun to get up THAT early in the summer?  The birds will be chirping just as the bar patrons rest their head on the pillow.  I don't care if you are a morning person, the first rays of sunshine illuminating the sky at 3:51 am is too damn early.  Abolishing DST would mean F#$@'ing over millions of New Yorker's.... that's just not going to happen.  Most people like their sunshine later in the day... not at 3:51 am.

OTOH, perpetual DST doesn't sound so bad.  On the shortest day of the year the sun sets in NYC at 4:31 pm.  It's no wonder people get depressed in the winter.... they are either stuck at their job or get home from work and it's already pitch black out.  Would people from NYC really oppose the sun setting at 5:31 pm on the shortest day of the year?  Conversely, the sun would rise at 8:16 am in NYC on the shortest day of the year with perpetual DST (with civil twilight staring at 7:45 am), which is about the current sunrise time for cities on the western edge of the eastern time zone.  That still sounds reasonable. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on March 23, 2018, 03:49:50 PM
Apparently, Indiana thinks it's in the correct time zone. They haven't attempted to move from ET to CT.

Moving the entire state to CT has been debated in committee but never gotten beyond that.  The state is pretty split.  Of course NWI and the Evansville area are already on Central.  There is a lot of support for moving to CT in the Lafayette, Terre Haute and Bloomington areas.  Some support in the South Bend area as well. 

I moved from an ET part of Indiana to a CT part of Indiana 7 months ago and I much prefer the daylight schedule on CT, and also the TV schedule as well, with primetime TV and sporting events starting an hour earlier.  I didn't have to stay up until midnight to see the Whinycats get sent home last night.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on March 24, 2018, 07:48:09 PM
If Indiana did move more counties to Central Time, I'd suspect most of the counties along the river from the Corydon area east to Lawrenceburg would stay on Eastern Time to be in synch with Louisville and Cincinnati.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 24, 2018, 08:27:14 PM
Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

No fucking way I'd touch that car.

If you had access to a car like this, would you take it back right away?

Neither would I.

Look, we're not like the valets in Ferris Bueller. I like my job and wouldn't want to risk it by doing something stupid.

Now, with that in mind, our route from the garage to the hotel is about 4 blocks, so I would thoroughly enjoy it for that distance. Assuming it's not painfully confusing to operate.

I know, I got nothin' to worry about, you're a professional.  ;)

(https://media.tenor.com/images/d1a4d7fc6514498c9f3d070c3e58796f/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on March 25, 2018, 03:34:23 AM
And I'm back to normal. DST has started in Europe overnight, so my "wherever Big Rig Steve is right now" time now points again to the correct time zone. It had been one hour behind for the last two weeks (as it sticks to my local time minus 6-9 hours, depending on the current position of Big Rig Steve).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: J N Winkler on March 25, 2018, 11:05:15 AM
And I'm back to normal. DST has started in Europe overnight, so my "wherever Big Rig Steve is right now" time now points again to the correct time zone.

My computer has likewise sprung forward to British Summer Time, so now the scripts I run every Monday night to harvest construction plans from transportation agency sites will begin at 6.01 PM, instead of 7.01 PM.  This increases the chances they will finish before midnight.  (With 73 scripts currently active, all of which run at least once every three months, it can take as long as 22 hours for a complete run.)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on March 25, 2018, 06:21:12 PM
If Indiana did move more counties to Central Time, I'd suspect most of the counties along the river from the Corydon area east to Lawrenceburg would stay on Eastern Time to be in synch with Louisville and Cincinnati.

Ignoring for a moment the reality that Cincinnati and Louisville should both be on Central time based on their longitude, and assuming that will never happen, then yes, I think Crawford, Lawrence, Orange, Jackson, Washington, Harrison, Jennigs, Scott, Clark, Floyd, Ripley, Jefferson, Dearborn, Ohio and Switzerland staying on Eastern due to getting their local TV stations from Cincinnati or Louisville. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on March 25, 2018, 08:10:01 PM
Said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate Central Time and am glad I'm in the Eastern Time Zone.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: SSOWorld on March 25, 2018, 08:39:22 PM
Said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate Central Time and am glad I'm in the Eastern Time Zone.
What's so bad about it - at least you get advance warning. :awesomeface:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2018, 09:10:13 PM
Said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate Central Time and am glad I'm in the Eastern Time Zone.

Heh. I was born in Texas but moved to Virginia when I was 1, so on the rare occasions when I go to places on Central Time I feel I’ve gotten my lost hour back.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tdindy88 on March 25, 2018, 09:15:41 PM
As a Hoosier living in the Eastern Time Zone, is it bad to say that one of the reasons I like being in Eastern is being able to watch the ball drop on New Years Eve and it actually mean something to me?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 25, 2018, 09:34:48 PM
As a Hoosier living in the Eastern Time Zone, is it bad to say that one of the reasons I like being in Eastern is being able to watch the ball drop on New Years Eve and it actually mean something to me?

People still care about that?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2018, 10:16:54 PM
As a Hoosier living in the Eastern Time Zone, is it bad to say that one of the reasons I like being in Eastern is being able to watch the ball drop on New Years Eve and it actually mean something to me?

People still care about that?

Um, yeah.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on March 25, 2018, 10:21:06 PM
As a Hoosier living in the Eastern Time Zone, is it bad to say that one of the reasons I like being in Eastern is being able to watch the ball drop on New Years Eve and it actually mean something to me?

People still care about that?
Judging by the crowds that show up, heck yeah.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 26, 2018, 03:12:59 AM
As a Hoosier living in the Eastern Time Zone, is it bad to say that one of the reasons I like being in Eastern is being able to watch the ball drop on New Years Eve and it actually mean something to me?

People still care about that?

I'm with you. I don't give a f*** about NYC's new years. I'm usually eating dinner when that happens. Seattle has their own fireworks at the Space Needle, which I find to be far more interesting.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Brandon on March 26, 2018, 05:22:57 AM
As a Hoosier living in the Eastern Time Zone, is it bad to say that one of the reasons I like being in Eastern is being able to watch the ball drop on New Years Eve and it actually mean something to me?

Does anyone outside of NYC actually give a shit about that?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 26, 2018, 07:33:45 AM
As a Hoosier living in the Eastern Time Zone, is it bad to say that one of the reasons I like being in Eastern is being able to watch the ball drop on New Years Eve and it actually mean something to me?

People still care about that?

I'm with you. I don't give a f*** about NYC's new years. I'm usually eating dinner when that happens. Seattle has their own fireworks at the Space Needle, which I find to be far more interesting.


Does anyone outside of NYC actually give a shit about that?
That is exactly the message - being in EST actually makes that meaningful.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 26, 2018, 09:02:51 AM
Said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate Central Time and am glad I'm in the Eastern Time Zone.

Prime time television starts at 7, NFL games start at noon, the Super Bowl is over by 9 or 9:30...I much prefer Central Time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on March 26, 2018, 10:24:30 AM
It's kind of sad that the rhythm of life is defined by TV scheduling, both because of the general principle, and because of the existence of DVRs and the cloud equivalents thereof.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on March 26, 2018, 10:41:34 AM
Said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate Central Time and am glad I'm in the Eastern Time Zone.

Prime time television starts at 7, NFL games start at noon, the Super Bowl is over by 9 or 9:30...I much prefer Central Time.

I'm not worried about any of that -- especially the NFL.

I don't like Central Time because the sun sets so early in the winter, and it's compounded by the reversion back to standard time. If it's practically dark by 5 p.m. here, that means it's practically dark by 4 p.m. in Owensboro or Paducah.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on March 26, 2018, 10:51:25 AM
Said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate Central Time and am glad I'm in the Eastern Time Zone.

Prime time television starts at 7, NFL games start at noon, the Super Bowl is over by 9 or 9:30...I much prefer Central Time.

I'm not worried about any of that -- especially the NFL.

I don't like Central Time because the sun sets so early in the winter, and it's compounded by the reversion back to standard time. If it's practically dark by 5 p.m. here, that means it's practically dark by 4 p.m. in Owensboro or Paducah.

Even if you were in Central, it would still set later than when it sets where I live (4:13 PM) unless you're east of Huntington, WV.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 26, 2018, 10:53:58 AM
It's kind of sad that the rhythm of life is defined by TV scheduling, both because of the general principle, and because of the existence of DVRs and the cloud equivalents thereof.
But that provides an insight into another  possible solutions - TV schedules can change more gradually, without any need to touch actual clock...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 26, 2018, 12:14:38 PM
It's kind of sad that the rhythm of life is defined by TV scheduling, both because of the general principle, and because of the existence of DVRs and the cloud equivalents thereof.

I watch most television through streaming options.  The last thing I watched live was Fox's adaptation of A Christmas Story: The Musical, and that was over three months ago.  But it was nice that it started and ended an hour earlier than if I was on the East Coast.

I'm not sure why I'd choose not to watch a live sporting event live, unless I wasn't available to watch it when it was going on.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 26, 2018, 12:16:12 PM
I don't like Central Time because the sun sets so early in the winter, and it's compounded by the reversion back to standard time. If it's practically dark by 5 p.m. here, that means it's practically dark by 4 p.m. in Owensboro or Paducah.

Once you get far enough north and/or east, the sun sets early in the winter in the Eastern Time Zone too.  In Boston, in November, it's dark by 4:30.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2018, 12:23:43 PM
It's kind of sad that the rhythm of life is defined by TV scheduling, both because of the general principle, and because of the existence of DVRs and the cloud equivalents thereof.

DVRs and the Cloud are way more recent technologies than the advent of DST.  TV shows and their timing are a function of most people's work and school schedules.  TV adapted to people; not the other way around.  Soaps and other daytime TV wouldn't work well in the evening when moms are taking care of the kids; sports and other TV programs commonly seen at night won't work well during the day when people are at work.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 26, 2018, 01:54:37 PM
Said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate Central Time and am glad I'm in the Eastern Time Zone.

Prime time television starts at 7, NFL games start at noon, the Super Bowl is over by 9 or 9:30...I much prefer Central Time.

I never watch broadcasts.  I watch discs that I buy, or from the library.  I definitely don't care about televised sports.  I don't want my eyeballs to be monetized.

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 26, 2018, 02:17:11 PM
Said it before, and I'll say it again. I hate Central Time and am glad I'm in the Eastern Time Zone.

Prime time television starts at 7, NFL games start at noon, the Super Bowl is over by 9 or 9:30...I much prefer Central Time.

I never watch broadcasts.  I watch discs that I buy, or from the library.  I definitely don't care about televised sports.  I don't want my eyeballs to be monetized.

You're missing out on great television if you're waiting for it to come out on DVD.  Granted, broadcast television, basic cable, and Hulu have commercials, but Amazon's streaming service and Netflix's do not.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on March 26, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
I don't know that I'm missing out.  If it's great, it'll still be great in a few years when it comes out on DVD.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on March 26, 2018, 05:58:50 PM
It's worth noting that many people enjoy talking about what they're watching as it comes out with their friends and on social media.  Many people also prefer to follow what's "trendy".  Honestly, I only have so much time, so I'm VERY particular about which TV shows I watch, particularly if it's something older and I'd have to catch up.

As a Hoosier living in the Eastern Time Zone, is it bad to say that one of the reasons I like being in Eastern is being able to watch the ball drop on New Years Eve and it actually mean something to me?
ABC has started broadcasting the New Orleans ball drop too.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 26, 2018, 06:21:15 PM
That is exactly the message - being in EST actually makes that meaningful.

tdindy88 worded his post in such a way that he seemed to indicate a preference for EST so that, when he watched the ball drop (which apparently he does regardless of his current time zone), it actually meant "happy new year" and not "happy new year, EST". I think mine and Brandon's point is that, if you don't live in the eastern time zone, why do you bother watching the ball drop at all? Surely there's a large celebration in every time zone that is broadcast zone-wide.

Now, apparently about 1/3 of all Americans watch the ball drop in NYC, with about a million crowding Times Square to see it in-person. But that doesn't negate the potential meaningless of the drop itself to those outside of EST. It's more a testament to America's obsession with the Big Apple, something Brandon and I don't fully understand.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on March 26, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
That is exactly the message - being in EST actually makes that meaningful.

tdindy88 worded his post in such a way that he seemed to indicate a preference for EST so that, when he watched the ball drop (which apparently he does regardless of his current time zone), it actually meant "happy new year" and not "happy new year, EST". I think mine and Brandon's point is that, if you don't live in the eastern time zone, why do you bother watching the ball drop at all? Surely there's a large celebration in every time zone that is broadcast zone-wide.

Now, apparently about 1/3 of all Americans watch the ball drop in NYC, with about a million crowding Times Square to see it in-person. But that doesn't negate the potential meaningless of the drop itself to those outside of EST. It's more a testament to America's obsession with the Big Apple, something Brandon and I don't fully understand.
Well, I knew some guys who started celebrating with some distant points eastward - having a drink every time another time zone clicked into new year... Small problem is that some of them could be too drunk to celebrate their local midnight properly - but strongest did continue their journey westward even after that...

 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 26, 2018, 06:48:52 PM
There's more than 30 time zones across the world, accounting for zones offset by 30 or 45 minutes, and UTC+13 and +14 out in the Pacific…

Were they all blackout drunk by the end of it? :-D
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on March 26, 2018, 07:48:28 PM
It's over 26 hours, so one can sober up a little between drinks if they are not big ones. The problem is 'celebrate' is probably not a small drink, or even one and tiredness would kick in, and if you don't do lengthy sessions....
I think mine and Brandon's point is that, if you don't live in the eastern time zone, why do you bother watching the ball drop at all? Surely there's a large celebration in every time zone that is broadcast zone-wide.
When I was in SoCal for NYE, the people who actually lived there whom I was with watched the ball drop at midnight. I didn't get it - not least as I didn't realise they did it again and this was actually live. To me it felt like watching Sydney's fireworks on the News  that happens some hours before the New Year starts for you.


The UK (maybe not Scotland so much) goes with Big Ben bonging. There's now a fireworks display at the London Eye that mostly runs after the bonging stops (the first year serious money was spent - 2000 - they did a gimmick of fireworks travelling at the 'speed of midnight'* along the river from the new Dome to Parliament. It was about 10 seconds at most, so was finished before the clock chimed and looked sucky on the TV).

We don't give a rats ass about the ball drop here - it happens in the small hours of the New Year, and while it might make a morning news montage of 'elsewhere' on Jan 1st, far more time (even though the news has already shown it several times already) goes to Sydney, supplemented by Hong Kong and perhaps some other Asian or European cities if they have good fireworks.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 27, 2018, 08:58:33 AM
The only reason I give a rat's ass about the ball drop in Times Square is that it happens at 11 pm local time, and it's a lot easier to stay up until 11 than midnight.

You couldn't pay me enough money to hang out there for 14+ hours waiting for the ball to drop, but thousands of people do it willingly every year.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on March 27, 2018, 12:08:56 PM
I can't remember if the document came from my employer or from L&I, but I haven't taken a "break" in almost four years. On the plus side, I work exactly eight hours a day.

"Anyone seen Jake lately?"

"Yeah, he's taking another 'break' in that Porsche over there."

(https://media.giphy.com/media/5wWf7GR2nhgamhRnEuA/giphy.gif)

Or a 1961 Ferrari 250GT California edition?  ;)

No fucking way I'd touch that car.
Cameron?

Z981

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: abefroman329 on March 27, 2018, 12:14:01 PM
A NICE STRETCH JOB WITH A TV AND A BAR!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: dvferyance on March 29, 2018, 09:47:09 PM
What stinks is being on the eastern edge of the time zone. In May and June it starts get light here by around 4:15 or 4:20 that is too early. I have stayed in Kansas and Nebraska and it doesn't get light there until around 5 or so and it stays light longer at night.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 30, 2018, 12:33:48 AM
What stinks is being on the eastern edge of the time zone. In May and June it starts get light here by around 4:15 or 4:20 that is too early. I have stayed in Kansas and Nebraska and it doesn't get light there until around 5 or so and it stays light longer at night.

Wisconsin is in the central time zone, though. Are you not in New Berlin? I'd be annoyed if I were in some place like MI's Upper Peninsula.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on March 30, 2018, 05:31:58 PM
What stinks is being on the eastern edge of the time zone. In May and June it starts get light here by around 4:15 or 4:20 that is too early. I have stayed in Kansas and Nebraska and it doesn't get light there until around 5 or so and it stays light longer at night.

Wisconsin is in the central time zone, though. Are you not in New Berlin? I'd be annoyed if I were in some place like MI's Upper Peninsula.

Precisely.... pretty much all of Wisconsin is considered to be on the "eastern edge" of the Central Time Zone.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on March 31, 2018, 03:13:50 AM
What stinks is being on the eastern edge of the time zone. In May and June it starts get light here by around 4:15 or 4:20 that is too early. I have stayed in Kansas and Nebraska and it doesn't get light there until around 5 or so and it stays light longer at night.

Wisconsin is in the central time zone, though. Are you not in New Berlin? I'd be annoyed if I were in some place like MI's Upper Peninsula.

Precisely.... pretty much all of Wisconsin is considered to be on the "eastern edge" of the Central Time Zone.

Ohhhh, I read the post wrong. I read it as "eastern edge of the eastern time zone". Which obviously makes no sense thinking about it now. :pan:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 02, 2018, 02:05:20 PM
What stinks is being on the eastern edge of the time zone. In May and June it starts get light here by around 4:15 or 4:20 that is too early. I have stayed in Kansas and Nebraska and it doesn't get light there until around 5 or so and it stays light longer at night.

^And if DST was eliminated it would be getting light at 3:15am!  If the  goal is to never have to change the clocks again, i think there are two options that could  work.

1.  Nationwide year-round DST (as Marco Rubio is trying to push though).

2.  Eliminate DST entirely, but shift all the time zones over.  Eastern time would become Atlantic... Central would become Eastern.... Rocky would become Central... Pacific would become Rocky.... and Alaska would become Pacific.  This would accomplish the same result as option #1, but we could at least say we are no longer on DST.

I guess there is a third option... be like China and combine time zones, and just deal with the sun setting at 1AM depending on where you live.  But i don't know if that would fly.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 02, 2018, 02:27:06 PM
What stinks is being on the eastern edge of the time zone. In May and June it starts get light here by around 4:15 or 4:20 that is too early. I have stayed in Kansas and Nebraska and it doesn't get light there until around 5 or so and it stays light longer at night.

^And if DST was eliminated it would be getting light at 3:15am!  If the  goal is to never have to change the clocks again, i think there are two options that could  work.

1.  Nationwide year-round DST (as Marco Rubio is trying to push though).

2.  Eliminate DST entirely, but shift all the time zones over.  Eastern time would become Atlantic... Central would become Eastern.... Rocky would become Central... Pacific would become Rocky.... and Alaska would become Pacific.  This would accomplish the same result as option #1, but we could at least say we are no longer on DST.

I guess there is a third option... be like China and combine time zones, and just deal with the sun setting at 1AM depending on where you live.  But i don't know if that would fly.

1 and 2 are essentially equivalent. And yes, that was tried before...
probably there are other examples, but here is one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decree_time
But honestly speaking, all you need to do is to adjust local activities to 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 02, 2018, 05:55:37 PM
Or we could do away with time-zones completely and have one universal world time.  However, the key is to set up the business day to start at the exact same time around the world, regardless of what the sun is doing.  Then people move to various parts of the world depending if they are morning people or night people (ie. if they want to work during the day or night).  Boom!  Problem solved.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on April 03, 2018, 12:55:48 AM
Or we could do away with time-zones completely and have one universal world time.  However, the key is to set up the business day to start at the exact same time around the world, regardless of what the sun is doing.  Then people move to various parts of the world depending if they are morning people or night people (ie. if they want to work during the day or night).  Boom!  Problem solved.

We've already got UTC for those who want it.  But most people, the overwhelming majority of people, don't want it for their everyday lives.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 03, 2018, 10:45:32 PM
A lot of regions in the world are in the wrong time-zone if you are basing it strictly on longitude.  A few examples include Spain, France, Singapore, Argentina, much of China, and Russia.  In all these cases, the regions intrude into their western timezone neighbor.  OTOH, regions rarely intrude into their eastern timezone neighbor (apart from eastern Greenland which already gets near perpetual sunlight in the summer anyways).  The point is it seems that many countries favor to push back their solar noon to later in the day - meaning enjoying more light at the end of the day as opposed to the beginning.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Standard_World_Time_Zones.png)



Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on April 04, 2018, 02:31:31 AM
I love the font used to label the oceans on that map, so much so that I did some research to dig it up. It's called Sanvito.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on April 04, 2018, 01:04:47 PM
A lot of those are the result of permanent DST (Iceland, the UTC parts of Greenland, Russia, Argentina, Cancun, etc.).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 04, 2018, 01:26:45 PM
A lot of those are the result of permanent DST (Iceland, the UTC parts of Greenland, Russia, Argentina, Cancun, etc.).

That's true.  If America adopted permanent DST, America would mimic Russia on the map (with the timezones shifting farther to the west).  And if Europe remained on DST (not permanent DST), it would mean that NYC would only be 4 hours behind London during the winter months and only 1 hour behind Rio De Janeiro year round.  In addition to enjoying more sunlight later in the day in America, the business day of North America/South America/and Europe would more closely interlap.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on April 04, 2018, 01:39:38 PM
It would also be abysmally dark in the morning in winter, making it hard for us night owls to get up and ready for work when we need to (some of us are stuck in "9-5"), and making the ice I need to scrape off the windshield every night it goes below freezing hard as a rock, since the sun will not have had a chance to warm it up before I need to leave.  And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on April 04, 2018, 01:42:34 PM
And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

Doubtful, considering Saskatchewan already does their own thing, and western Ontario is already extremely far west (even further than Indiana) and is on EST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 04, 2018, 02:58:56 PM
It would also be abysmally dark in the morning in winter, making it hard for us night owls to get up and ready for work when we need to (some of us are stuck in "9-5"), and making the ice I need to scrape off the windshield every night it goes below freezing hard as a rock, since the sun will not have had a chance to warm it up before I need to leave.  And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

The sun would rise at 8:16AM in NYC on the winter solstice if we had permanent DST with civil twilight starting at 7:45AM.  If you get up at 7:45AM or later for work in NYC, there would be light even on the shortest day of the year (the New York Stock Exchange starts at 9:30am... giving traders nearly 2 hours of light before the bell rings to start the business world).  That doesn't sound abysmally dark to me.  By the way the sun currently sets at 4:30pm in NYC during the winter solstice.  You are a self described night owl, so that means you are probably up for hours after the sun sets in NYC on the shortest day of the year.  Just ask yourself this question.... are more people in NYC sleeping at 8:16 AM or 4:30PM?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 04, 2018, 03:18:34 PM
It would also be abysmally dark in the morning in winter, making it hard for us night owls to get up and ready for work when we need to (some of us are stuck in "9-5"), and making the ice I need to scrape off the windshield every night it goes below freezing hard as a rock, since the sun will not have had a chance to warm it up before I need to leave.  And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

The sun would rise at 8:16AM in NYC on the winter solstice if we had permanent DST with civil twilight starting at 7:45AM.  If you get up at 7:45AM or later for work in NYC, there would be light even on the shortest day of the year (the New York Stock Exchange starts at 9:30am... giving traders nearly 2 hours of light before the bell rings to start the business world).  That doesn't sound abysmally dark to me.  By the way the sun currently sets at 4:30pm in NYC during the winter solstice.  You are a self described night owl, so that means you are probably up for hours after the sun sets in NYC on the shortest day of the year.  Just ask yourself this question.... are more people in NYC sleeping at 8:16 AM or 4:30PM?

Trick question.  New York City is the city that never sleeps.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on April 04, 2018, 03:32:31 PM
tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on April 04, 2018, 04:06:06 PM
It would also be abysmally dark in the morning in winter, making it hard for us night owls to get up and ready for work when we need to (some of us are stuck in "9-5"), and making the ice I need to scrape off the windshield every night it goes below freezing hard as a rock, since the sun will not have had a chance to warm it up before I need to leave.  And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

The sun would rise at 8:16AM in NYC on the winter solstice if we had permanent DST with civil twilight starting at 7:45AM.  If you get up at 7:45AM or later for work in NYC, there would be light even on the shortest day of the year (the New York Stock Exchange starts at 9:30am... giving traders nearly 2 hours of light before the bell rings to start the business world).  That doesn't sound abysmally dark to me.  By the way the sun currently sets at 4:30pm in NYC during the winter solstice.  You are a self described night owl, so that means you are probably up for hours after the sun sets in NYC on the shortest day of the year.  Just ask yourself this question.... are more people in NYC sleeping at 8:16 AM or 4:30PM?

New York City is located around the correct longitude for its time zone.  For full credit, repeat the exercise for other cities in the Eastern Time Zone but which are located much farther west.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 04, 2018, 04:13:45 PM
tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

The winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight... that's why the focus of sunrise/sunset times are made on that day.   But in the end there are only two options if you want to never have to set your clocks twice a year... eliminate DST entirely or make DST permanent.  Sure, vdeane doesn't want permanent DST because he would have to scrape the ice off the windows during the winter and his little hands would get cold in the morning... awwww booo.  But if we didn't have DST at all, then civil twilight would begin at 3:50am in NYC during the summer solstice and the sun would set at a relatively early 7:28pm (it would be getting dark by the 2nd inning of the Yankees game).  People want to enjoy their summer nights (shocker!) and DST accomplishes this.  I doubt Vdeane is complaining that it's still dark at 4AM during the summer solstice.  Maybe 3 people in all of NYC would complain that it's still dark at 4AM.  These 3 people might want to eliminate daylight saving time, but the other 7 million people in NYC would hate having 1 less hour of sunlight during the summer evenings.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 04, 2018, 04:44:25 PM
New York City is located around the correct longitude for its time zone.  For full credit, repeat the exercise for other cities in the Eastern Time Zone but which are located much farther west.

I did post sunrise/sunset times during the winter solstice if DST was made permanent.  Detroit is a city on the western edge of the eastern timezone.  The response was "But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!".  Again though... are more people sleeping in Detroit at 8:57AM or 6:02PM.  To me, 6:02PM is still relatively early.  Most people in Detroit are going to be awake for at least another 3 or 4 hours.  Even with permanent DST, cities in the most western edge of the eastern timezone are going to be blanketed in darkness for much of the evening when most people are still awake.

Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!
(https://i.imgur.com/bLeDECs.png)


But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 04, 2018, 04:53:43 PM
tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.
Difference is not that great, and having all numbers in same place is a bit easier to handle..
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 04, 2018, 05:02:32 PM
Politically permanent DST actually has a chance of passing.  With Florida passing their Sunshine Protection Act and Marco Rubio trying to push similar legislation through the US Congress, we could potentially see permanent DST in America in the next few years.  I imagine states could still opt out of DST completely (like Arizona and Hawaii currently do).  Potentially a lot of states on Rocky Time will want to opt out of DST to be on Pacific time... and Arizona will suddenly have a lot of company!

There is no legislation in Congress to eliminate DST.  Anybody who wants to eliminate DST may have to settle for permanent DST.  But it accomplishes everyone's biggest goal... not having to set their clocks twice a year. 
 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mrsman on April 04, 2018, 06:33:24 PM
Politically permanent DST actually has a chance of passing.  With Florida passing their Sunshine Protection Act and Marco Rubio trying to push similar legislation through the US Congress, we could potentially see permanent DST in America in the next few years.  I imagine states could still opt out of DST completely (like Arizona and Hawaii currently do).  Potentially a lot of states on Rocky Time will want to opt out of DST to be on Pacific time... and Arizona will suddenly have a lot of company!

There is no legislation in Congress to eliminate DST.  Anybody who wants to eliminate DST may have to settle for permanent DST.  But it accomplishes everyone's biggest goal... not having to set their clocks twice a year.

I can easily see that. AZ time is both permanent Mtn Standard or permanent Pac DST.  I can see much of the western edges of time zones following suit.  So the Dakotas can be on permanent Mtn DST.  Indiana and Michigan can be permanent Ctl DST.  And New England can be on permanent Eastern DST.  Basically move the boundaries of the time zones a few hundred miles to the east and then get rid of the clock change.

As it is, I know of many people who start work extra early on Fridays in the summer so that they could leave earlier and head towards weekend vacation spots.  In effect, at least on Fridays, these people do a double DST.  People with flexible work schedules could pick the time that suits them, but there is no reason to force every one else to shift.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 04, 2018, 07:36:11 PM
And what with Canada?  Are they really going to adopt permanent DST just because of the US?

Well do you really think if America went to permanent DST that Canada wouldn't follow suit?  That's not even a question in my mind.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on April 04, 2018, 07:41:38 PM
New York City is located around the correct longitude for its time zone.  For full credit, repeat the exercise for other cities in the Eastern Time Zone but which are located much farther west.

I did post sunrise/sunset times during the winter solstice if DST was made permanent.  Detroit is a city on the western edge of the eastern timezone.  The response was "But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!".  Again though... are more people sleeping in Detroit at 8:57AM or 6:02PM.  To me, 6:02PM is still relatively early.  Most people in Detroit are going to be awake for at least another 3 or 4 hours.  Even with permanent DST, cities in the most western edge of the eastern timezone are going to be blanketed in darkness for much of the evening when most people are still awake.

Here are sunrise/sunset times of various cities during the winter solstice under Standard Time and proposed year-round DST.  Those poor people in Bangor, Maine currently watch the sunset at 3:57PM during the winter solstice… depressing!
(https://i.imgur.com/bLeDECs.png)


But look at that sunrise time in Detroit!  High school kids would be in their 2nd period classes before they see daylight!


The point is not that more people are awake at sunset than at sunrise.  The point is that it's easier to stop sleeping and get out of bed if there's some light in the sky.  Humans seem to naturally wake around dawn.  Getting up way before dawn is really hard and no one wants to do that all winter long.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Road Hog on April 04, 2018, 08:02:05 PM
What stinks is being on the eastern edge of the time zone. In May and June it starts get light here by around 4:15 or 4:20 that is too early. I have stayed in Kansas and Nebraska and it doesn't get light there until around 5 or so and it stays light longer at night.

^And if DST was eliminated it would be getting light at 3:15am!  If the  goal is to never have to change the clocks again, i think there are two options that could  work.

1.  Nationwide year-round DST (as Marco Rubio is trying to push though).

2.  Eliminate DST entirely, but shift all the time zones over.  Eastern time would become Atlantic... Central would become Eastern.... Rocky would become Central... Pacific would become Rocky.... and Alaska would become Pacific.  This would accomplish the same result as option #1, but we could at least say we are no longer on DST.

I guess there is a third option... be like China and combine time zones, and just deal with the sun setting at 1AM depending on where you live.  But i don't know if that would fly.
Maybe a single time zone for the contiguous U.S. could work if it was set halfway between Central and Mountain, where neither coast is more than 1.5 hours off their natural time. Yes, it’s Super Newfie Time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on April 04, 2018, 08:36:07 PM
The sun would rise at 8:16AM in NYC on the winter solstice if we had permanent DST with civil twilight starting at 7:45AM.  If you get up at 7:45AM or later for work in NYC, there would be light even on the shortest day of the year (the New York Stock Exchange starts at 9:30am... giving traders nearly 2 hours of light before the bell rings to start the business world).  That doesn't sound abysmally dark to me.  By the way the sun currently sets at 4:30pm in NYC during the winter solstice.  You are a self described night owl, so that means you are probably up for hours after the sun sets in NYC on the shortest day of the year.  Just ask yourself this question.... are more people in NYC sleeping at 8:16 AM or 4:30PM?
I have to arrive at work at 8:30.  Now, I know for guys you can just roll out of bed and be at your desk two minutes later, but for us girls it isn't that simple.  In order to pluck my eyebrows, put in my contacts, brush my teeth, take my pills, take a shower, dry off, do a quick email/Facebook check while letting my hair get a head start air drying (essential to not be miserable with the hairdryer and to minimize frizz), dry my hair, prepare and eat breakfast, get dressed, and commute to work, I have to be out of bed no later than 6:15, assuming there's nothing like a snowstorm or needing to wear a fancier outfit than pants and a blouse to take more time.  I save makeup and nail polish for special occasions because I'd have to get up even earlier if I didn't.

It doesn't help that I have a tendency to move slowly and space out when tired, which I always am when getting up before my circadian rhythm wants me to, between 8 and 10 (though I've been known to sleep in until noon on the weekends because I end up chronically sleep deprived over the week... insomnia is a bitch).  I could probably save 15 minutes if I was capable of consistently moving at a reasonable speed in the morning.

I usually go to bed at 11 on work nights (12-2 on weekends), though I'm really aiming for 10; I'm just never successful at going to bed that early.

My office has windows, and nobody's cube is too far from one, so I get to see the sun even if it's at work.

tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

The winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight... that's why the focus of sunrise/sunset times are made on that day.   But in the end there are only two options if you want to never have to set your clocks twice a year... eliminate DST entirely or make DST permanent.  Sure, vdeane doesn't want permanent DST because he would have to scrape the ice off the windows during the winter and his little hands would get cold in the morning... awwww booo.  But if we didn't have DST at all, then civil twilight would begin at 3:50am in NYC during the summer solstice and the sun would set at a relatively early 7:28pm (it would be getting dark by the 2nd inning of the Yankees game).  People want to enjoy their summer nights (shocker!) and DST accomplishes this.  I doubt Vdeane is complaining that it's still dark at 4AM during the summer solstice.  Maybe 3 people in all of NYC would complain that it's still dark at 4AM.  These 3 people might want to eliminate daylight saving time, but the other 7 million people in NYC would hate having 1 less hour of sunlight during the summer evenings.
Most times scraping ice takes 5 minutes.  If it's hard as a rock, however, which can happen on the late sunrise days of January, it can take at least 15.  And it still leaves little streaks of ice on the windshield because trying to get rid of all of them would make it take 45 minutes.

It's not my fault that some people are incapable of staying awake without sunlight.  May I recommend natural wavelength compact fluorescents for those dark winter nights?

Politically permanent DST actually has a chance of passing.  With Florida passing their Sunshine Protection Act and Marco Rubio trying to push similar legislation through the US Congress, we could potentially see permanent DST in America in the next few years.  I imagine states could still opt out of DST completely (like Arizona and Hawaii currently do).  Potentially a lot of states on Rocky Time will want to opt out of DST to be on Pacific time... and Arizona will suddenly have a lot of company!

There is no legislation in Congress to eliminate DST.  Anybody who wants to eliminate DST may have to settle for permanent DST.  But it accomplishes everyone's biggest goal... not having to set their clocks twice a year. 
 
What is the big deal about trying to eliminate the clock change?  I find it to be a minor annoyance at best.  It's also good for correcting the natural drift that clocks develop over time (my watch is usually a couple minutes off by the time change).  Usually my brain has already begun to snap into the new time within a couple hours of changing the clocks.  The hour variation is much less than the variation between when I get up during the week and on the weekend.

The change I would make is to move the clock changes back to where they were before Bush changed them.  IMO neither permanent DST or no DST is optimal.

Also, it's Mountain Time, not "Rocky Time".  And everyone already knew Florida is nuts.  People are incapable of eating dinner after the sun has set?  Or shop?  Really?  I remember many family vacations where we were still out after dark (mostly 1000 Islands, but also Boston and Toronto).  Something has to be in the water down there...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Eth on April 04, 2018, 09:54:41 PM
tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

The winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight... that's why the focus of sunrise/sunset times are made on that day.   But in the end there are only two options if you want to never have to set your clocks twice a year... eliminate DST entirely or make DST permanent.  Sure, vdeane doesn't want permanent DST because he would have to scrape the ice off the windows during the winter and his little hands would get cold in the morning... awwww booo.  But if we didn't have DST at all, then civil twilight would begin at 3:50am in NYC during the summer solstice and the sun would set at a relatively early 7:28pm (it would be getting dark by the 2nd inning of the Yankees game).  People want to enjoy their summer nights (shocker!) and DST accomplishes this.  I doubt Vdeane is complaining that it's still dark at 4AM during the summer solstice.  Maybe 3 people in all of NYC would complain that it's still dark at 4AM.  These 3 people might want to eliminate daylight saving time, but the other 7 million people in NYC would hate having 1 less hour of sunlight during the summer evenings.

I'm starting to think maybe y'all should just move south to a reasonable latitude and then you won't have to worry about 4 AM sunrises or 4 PM sunsets or whatever.  :bigass:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 04, 2018, 09:56:37 PM
I have to arrive at work at 8:30.  Now, I know for guys you can just roll out of bed and be at your desk two minutes later, but for us girls it isn't that simple.  In order to pluck my eyebrows, put in my contacts, brush my teeth, take my pills, take a shower, dry off, do a quick email/Facebook check while letting my hair get a head start air drying (essential to not be miserable with the hairdryer and to minimize frizz), dry my hair, prepare and eat breakfast, get dressed, and commute to work, I have to be out of bed no later than 6:15, assuming there's nothing like a snowstorm or needing to wear a fancier outfit than pants and a blouse to take more time.  I save makeup and nail polish for special occasions because I'd have to get up even earlier if I didn't.

What little sunlight we have during the winter months is wasted on the monotony of getting ready for work in the morning.  Do you really enjoy the sun as you pluck your eyebrows in the bathroom, brush your teeth, and take a shower?  Hell no! 

It doesn't help that I have a tendency to move slowly and space out when tired, which I always am when getting up before my circadian rhythm wants me to, between 8 and 10 (though I've been known to sleep in until noon on the weekends because I end up chronically sleep deprived over the week... insomnia is a bitch).  I could probably save 15 minutes if I was capable of consistently moving at a reasonable speed in the morning.

You just described the sleep pattern of millions of working Americans.  Now if you wake up at noon in Bangor, Maine during the winter, you only have 3 hours and 57 minutes of daylight left (and have already wasted nearly 5 hours of daylight).   Talk about a crappy start to the weekend.

Also, it's Mountain Time, not "Rocky Time".  And everyone already knew Florida is nuts.  People are incapable of eating dinner after the sun has set?  Or shop?  Really?  I remember many family vacations where we were still out after dark (mostly 1000 Islands, but also Boston and Toronto).  Something has to be in the water down there...

There is a lot of things that Florida is nuts about, but this isn’t one of them.  Let’s just admit that people who live in the northern states are pretty much screwed during the winter… regardless of exactly when the sun rises or sets.  But in Florida you can have pleasant evenings during the winter months.  Why not spend an hour longer on the golf course, go out to dinner at the beach, or enjoy a BBQ after work?  These winter activities are limited when it’s pitch dark in Florida at 5:59 pm (that’s when civil twilight ends in Orlando during the winter solstice).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on April 04, 2018, 09:58:11 PM
tradephoric, neither the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset occurs on the winter solstice. The latest sunrise occurs about two weeks later and the earliest sunset occurs about two weeks earlier.  You can look it up.

The winter solstice is the day with the shortest period of daylight... that's why the focus of sunrise/sunset times are made on that day.   But in the end there are only two options if you want to never have to set your clocks twice a year... eliminate DST entirely or make DST permanent.  Sure, vdeane doesn't want permanent DST because he would have to scrape the ice off the windows during the winter and his little hands would get cold in the morning... awwww booo.  But if we didn't have DST at all, then civil twilight would begin at 3:50am in NYC during the summer solstice and the sun would set at a relatively early 7:28pm (it would be getting dark by the 2nd inning of the Yankees game).  People want to enjoy their summer nights (shocker!) and DST accomplishes this.  I doubt Vdeane is complaining that it's still dark at 4AM during the summer solstice.  Maybe 3 people in all of NYC would complain that it's still dark at 4AM.  These 3 people might want to eliminate daylight saving time, but the other 7 million people in NYC would hate having 1 less hour of sunlight during the summer evenings.

I'm starting to think maybe y'all should just move south to a reasonable latitude and then you won't have to worry about 4 AM sunrises or 4 PM sunsets or whatever.  :bigass:

Or you all could move to Arizona or Saskatchewan or whatever.  Shrug.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 04, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
I'm starting to think maybe y'all should just move south to a reasonable latitude and then you won't have to worry about 4 AM sunrises or 4 PM sunsets or whatever.  :bigass:

Even if i move to Florida it's pitch dark by 6PM in the winter!  That's still way too damn early.  Of course if we went to permanent DST....
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 04, 2018, 10:00:31 PM
Let's just face the facts: it's never going to be perfect, no matter where you are or what time zone you decide upon.

All I desire is to end the archaic practice of changing the clock twice a year. I don't care if (for me) that results in UTC-6 or UTC-5 permanently, or whether that means dark mornings or dark evenings at certain times during the year. Just, for crying out loud, pick one and stick with it. I feel like the twice annual time change is more disruptive to my life than waking up while it's still dark outside for a couple months of the year.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 04, 2018, 10:08:38 PM
You could always live on the equator.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on April 04, 2018, 10:27:35 PM
Everyone should just accept that the Sun should be directly overhead at Noon every day year round and adjust their life's schedule to suit.

Let Noon be Noon.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: oscar on April 04, 2018, 10:30:47 PM
You could always live on the equator.

Or Hawaii, which is close enough to the equator that there's only a two-hour difference in daylight between the solstices. It doesn't do daylight savings for that reason, and also staying in synch with non-DST countries like Japan is more important than synching with the rest of the U.S.

Of course, this is a pricey option. The cost-of-living differential from the rest of the U.S. (dubbed the "paradise tax") is estimated to be over 30%.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: wxfree on April 04, 2018, 10:45:59 PM
Everyone should just accept that the Sun should be directly overhead at Noon every day year round and adjust their life's schedule to suit.

Let Noon be Noon.

I consider myself to be a more acutely aware than average observer of nature, but I have never noticed solar noon.  If I sat and watched the shadows I could figure out noon after it happened (maybe as it's happening with some solar viewing glasses), but the sun is never directly overhead as far away from the equator as most of us are, and nowhere is directly overhead more than two days per year.  The time when the sun reaches its high point and the shadows start to get longer is something I don't think most people notice.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on April 04, 2018, 11:02:07 PM
Let's just face the facts: it's never going to be perfect, no matter where you are or what time zone you decide upon.

I do find it funny that after 16 pages, we are only just now coming to the conclusion that, no matter what we do to our time zones, we will never satisfy everyone. I think this is why DST rules almost never change.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on April 05, 2018, 06:24:02 AM
Even if i move to Florida it's pitch dark by 6PM in the winter!  That's still way too damn early.
Alternate between hemispheres so you don't have to deal with winter (which is your real problem).

Either that or don't care about what an artificial number on a round thing says!
Quote
Of course if we went to permanent DST....
Why not go the whole hog and run on UTC, so then in winter the sun sets at 9pm or whatever?

Just don't force other people to have to comply with your own idiocy - I'd imagine vdeane will go insane getting up 6 hours before dawn to go to work in mid-winter.
You could always live on the equator.
But then the sun sets around 6pm whatever season (they don't really do winter/summer) - it would be like endless winter, only with minimum temperatures being about 85! ;)

All I desire is to end the archaic practice of changing the clock twice a year.
Not changing the clock is the archaic (or perhaps the 'natural') practice*. DST has only been implemented for 102 years (brought in as war-time rationing of electricity so that energy could go into bombs and guns).

*What we did before the Industrial Revolution was this strange thing called sleeping more in winter and less in summer - we still do, but try not to as we feel the tick-tock of small little mechanisms/circuits rules us and the giant ball of flaming gas that gives us our energy doesn't.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 05, 2018, 10:38:30 AM
I believe the best alternative is to have permanent DST but allow states/provinces to opt out and remain on standard time year-round (as Arizona, Hawaii, and Saskatchewan currently do).  This way a region on the western edge of a time zone can choose not to observe permanent DST, thus giving them the same sunrise time in the winter that they are currently accustomed to (with the understanding that sunsets will be an hour earlier in the Summer).  If this occurred I believe Saskatchewan and Arizona would remain on standard time, and Utah and Idaho would join Arizona’s lead (drastically reducing the size of the Mountain time zone).  And who knows what Indiana would decide to do.  This is the time zone map I envision if permanent DST was approved nationwide. 

(https://i.imgur.com/3sipt44.jpg)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on April 05, 2018, 01:59:29 PM
I agree that this is less about "lack of daylight" and more about "lack of summer".  Many people seem to not like seasons beyond consuming Cadbury Eggs and Pumpkin Spice Lattes.

What little sunlight we have during the winter months is wasted on the monotony of getting ready for work in the morning.  Do you really enjoy the sun as you pluck your eyebrows in the bathroom, brush your teeth, and take a shower?  Hell no!
At least it's not indistinguishable than midnight.  I already have enough things in life and society that depress me; I don't need to think about having to get up before anything even resembling the crack of dawn for at least half the year for a minimum of the next 36 years.

Quote
You just described the sleep pattern of millions of working Americans.  Now if you wake up at noon in Bangor, Maine during the winter, you only have 3 hours and 57 minutes of daylight left (and have already wasted nearly 5 hours of daylight).   Talk about a crappy start to the weekend.
I'm pretty sure most people don't sleep in that late, even on the weekends.  Dad gets up around 10 on the weekends.  Mom sometimes sleeps in until 8 or 9, but it's rare for her to get up later than 7.  I imagine that's more typical, especially since society favors morning larks.  Year-round DST would make lark favoritism more pervasive, not less, since owls are already accustomed to being awake and doing things well after sunset.

Quote
There is a lot of things that Florida is nuts about, but this isn’t one of them.  Let’s just admit that people who live in the northern states are pretty much screwed during the winter… regardless of exactly when the sun rises or sets.  But in Florida you can have pleasant evenings during the winter months.  Why not spend an hour longer on the golf course, go out to dinner at the beach, or enjoy a BBQ after work?  These winter activities are limited when it’s pitch dark in Florida at 5:59 pm (that’s when civil twilight ends in Orlando during the winter solstice).
Honestly, I would consider those to be summer activities.  Regarding going out to dinner, don't restaurants have lights with outdoor seating?  Up north, sunset isn't considered a requirement to stop eating.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: formulanone on April 05, 2018, 03:13:18 PM
Honestly, I would consider those to be summer activities.  Regarding going out to dinner, don't restaurants have lights with outdoor seating?  Up north, sunset isn't considered a requirement to stop eating.

Florida has two seasons: summer and roughly 48 hours of winter.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 05, 2018, 04:10:24 PM
Honestly, I would consider those to be summer activities.  Regarding going out to dinner, don't restaurants have lights with outdoor seating?  Up north, sunset isn't considered a requirement to stop eating.

Florida has two seasons: summer and roughly 48 hours of winter.
Better that in some places up north where people do get beautiful summer - but you have some important meetings on that particular day..
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on April 05, 2018, 05:06:08 PM
For those thinking about shifting the clocks forward an hour permanantly, here's the UK debate that saw the trial period 50 years ago not be continued (it was rejected strongly): https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1970/dec/02/british-standard-time

Which, of course, is the second time we'd returned to GMT with summer time, having moved to GMT+1 (with summer time) in autumn 1940 and having double summer time in 1941-45, dropping the double summer time soon after VE day (to the relief of the nation!) and going back to GMT in October '45. We didn't look back at moving to CET being a good idea for a generation (this time without summer time). The same happened with the 'British Standard Time' experiment, only for longer, and as MPs too young to remember start pushing it, they are failing miserably with it thankfully.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 05, 2018, 05:28:32 PM
All I desire is to end the archaic practice of changing the clock twice a year.
Not changing the clock is the archaic (or perhaps the 'natural') practice*. DST has only been implemented for 102 years (brought in as war-time rationing of electricity so that energy could go into bombs and guns).

Yeah, perhaps 'archaic' was the wrong word of choice. Either way, I still believe the practice is outdated in current society and should be done away with.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on April 05, 2018, 08:28:08 PM
I don't need to think about having to get up before anything even resembling the crack of dawn for at least half the year for a minimum of the next 36 years.

You will have to work that long? In Kentucky, state employees and teachers can retire after 27 years with full benefits.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on April 05, 2018, 08:52:24 PM
Most NY employees (Tier 4) can retire without penalty if they're over 55 and have 30 years of service, but since I'm newer than most employees (Tier 6), I have to wait until I'm 63.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on April 05, 2018, 09:18:48 PM
Most NY employees (Tier 4) can retire without penalty if they're over 55 and have 30 years of service, but since I'm newer than most employees (Tier 6), I have to wait until I'm 63.

That's not unreasonable. I'm 56, and will only have 20 years of state service this year. Do the math; I won't have 27 years in until I'm 63. Of course, the reality is that I will have to work until I die and will never be able to retire. And even if that was not the case, my intent was always to work, if able, until I'm 70 and then would be eligible for the top tier of Social Security benefits, assuming SS is still in place by then.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on April 05, 2018, 09:27:40 PM
*What we did before the Industrial Revolution was this strange thing called sleeping more in winter and less in summer - we still do, but try not to as we feel the tick-tock of small little mechanisms/circuits rules us and the giant ball of flaming gas that gives us our energy doesn't.

More specifically, we got up when it got to be light enough to see, and went to bed when it got to be too dark to see.  Candles or oil were expensive and not bright enough to do many kinds of activities.

Clocks didn't get to be a daily part of life for ordinary people until the mid-19th century and we needed them to catch trains and report for our shift at the mill.  So really it was only about 60 years between clocks being commonplace and the beginning of DST use.  People light getting up when it gets light.

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on April 05, 2018, 11:34:51 PM
There was also that concept of a "Second Sleep".
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jwolfer on April 06, 2018, 08:23:22 AM
Midnight snack came from this. It the wake time between first and second sleep

Z981

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on April 06, 2018, 12:30:51 PM
More specifically, we got up when it got to be light enough to see, and went to bed when it got to be too dark to see.
While that is broadly the case, it is wrong in those specifics.

It also fuels stuff like tradephoric's nonsense that you can't eat dinner after dark!
Quote
Candles or oil were expensive and not bright enough to do many kinds of activities.
Other stuff burns and gives light - cheaper stuff like wood...

And not being able to many kinds of activities doesn't mean all you could do was sleep. You could still eat, drink, talk, tell stories, play music, dance, generally be merry.

Of course, your fire would wane overnight, so these sorts of things were harder pre-dawn than post-dusk.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on April 06, 2018, 01:03:12 PM
Most NY employees (Tier 4) can retire without penalty if they're over 55 and have 30 years of service, but since I'm newer than most employees (Tier 6), I have to wait until I'm 63.

That's not unreasonable. I'm 56, and will only have 20 years of state service this year. Do the math; I won't have 27 years in until I'm 63. Of course, the reality is that I will have to work until I die and will never be able to retire. And even if that was not the case, my intent was always to work, if able, until I'm 70 and then would be eligible for the top tier of Social Security benefits, assuming SS is still in place by then.
I don't disagree.  Still depressing to think about when dragging myself out of bed in the morning, though.  If only I could do something about my insomnia so I could actually wake up refreshed.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 06, 2018, 02:03:15 PM
It also fuels stuff like tradephoric's nonsense that you can't eat dinner after dark!

I obviously never said you can't eat dinner after dark, it's just that most people don't want to fire up the BBQ once it gets dark outside (and in Florida it's dark by 6PM during the winter solstice).  Also, the main attraction of a beach side restaurant in Florida is... wait for it... the beach!  Yes, tourists in Florida during the winter will still eat dinner once it gets dark out, but they may not be enticed to go to that fancy beach side restaurant knowing it's pitch dark out and won't be able to enjoy the water/sunset/hot girls walking around in bikinis/etc.  Instead, maybe they end up eating SPAM in their hotel room... tourist money lost (good for sales of SPAM though!).  You would have to go to dinner by 4:30pm if you'd like to enjoy the sunset during your meal.... and you can argue that tourists should adjust their schedules if they want to enjoy that sunset during dinner, but if anything tourists are likely to sleep in longer during their week-long winter break and aren't thinking about going to dinner at 4:30pm when they are accustomed to eating at 6pm back home.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 06, 2018, 02:11:35 PM
It also fuels stuff like tradephoric's nonsense that you can't eat dinner after dark!

I obviously never said you can't eat dinner after dark, it's just that most people don't want to fire up the BBQ once it gets dark outside (and in Florida it's dark by 6PM during the winter solstice).  Also, the main attraction of a beach side restaurant in Florida is... wait for it... the beach!  Yes, tourists in Florida during the winter will still eat dinner once it gets dark out, but they may not be enticed to go to that fancy beach side restaurant knowing it's pitch dark out and won't be able to enjoy the water/sunset/hot girls walking around in bikinis/etc.  Instead, maybe they end up eating SPAM in their hotel room... tourist money lost (good for sales of SPAM though!).  You would have to go to dinner by 4:30pm if you'd like to enjoy the sunset during your meal.... and you can argue that tourists should adjust their schedules if they want to enjoy that sunset during dinner, but if anything tourists are likely to sleep in longer during their week-long winter break and aren't thinking about going to dinner at 4:30pm when they are accustomed to eating at 6pm back home.

I take it you're not in Florida during winter all that often, are you?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 06, 2018, 02:31:50 PM
^It's about what Floridians want.  The Florida Senate nearly unanimously passed the Sunshine Protection Act, which would keep Daylight Saving time permanent in the state.  There were only two dissenters in the Senate bill and the Florida House passed it by a vote of 103-11.  In addition, public polls show tremendous support for getting rid of the time changes.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on April 06, 2018, 03:19:42 PM
If that is what the people of Florida want, perhaps no one there will change their clocks next November.  Then they will have achieved what they want without having to lift a finger.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 06, 2018, 03:22:17 PM
What is the big deal about trying to eliminate the clock change? I find it to be a minor annoyance at best.  It's also good for correcting the natural drift that clocks develop over time (my watch is usually a couple minutes off by the time change).  Usually my brain has already begun to snap into the new time within a couple hours of changing the clocks.  The hour variation is much less than the variation between when I get up during the week and on the weekend.

Changing the clocks twice a year is a sudden shock to people’s routine.  As one example, someone who drove home from work in daylight the Friday before the time change may now be driving home in pitch darkness the following Monday after the time change (even though they punch out at the same time).  And millions of commuters are dealing with this same 'shock'.  A lot of people don’t like driving at night, and the Monday following a time change might be the first time they have driven at night in several months (and they are pretty much forced to do it if they have a job... good luck getting off early by saying you aren't comfortable driving at night).  Those drivers who don't like driving at night are pretty much thrown into the DEEP end of the pool every year during the time change.  Is it any wonder there is a spike in traffic crashes immediately following a time change?

Maybe there is a big benefit to staying on standard time during the winter months, but what is the compelling argument?   To be fair, the time changes do remind us all to re-calibrate our wrist watches… but that isn’t compelling enough to keep switching between standard time and DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 06, 2018, 03:26:50 PM
If that is what the people of Florida want, perhaps no one there will change their clocks next November.  Then they will have achieved what they want without having to lift a finger.

Federal laws doesn't allow a state to remain on permanent DST year-round... it only allows a state to remain on standard time year-round.  In order for Florida's Sunshine Protection Act to take effect, similar legislation must be passed through the US Congress and that is what Marco Rubio is trying to do now.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on April 06, 2018, 03:51:40 PM
How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 06, 2018, 04:25:39 PM
How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

There is a section in the Uniform Time Act of 1966 that addresses violations.  I'm no legal expert but maybe someone here could decipher what would happen if a state like Florida refused to go back to standard time in November. 

Quote
(c) Violations; enforcement

For any violation of the provisions of this section the Secretary of Transportation or his duly authorized agent may apply to the district court of the United States for the district in which such violation occurs for the enforcement of this section; and such court shall have jurisdiction to enforce obedience thereto by writ of injunction or by other process, mandatory or otherwise, restraining against further violations of this section and enjoining obedience thereto.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-80/pdf/STATUTE-80-Pg107.pdf
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on April 06, 2018, 04:49:30 PM
If that is what the people of Florida want, perhaps no one there will change their clocks next November.  Then they will have achieved what they want without having to lift a finger.

Federal laws doesn't allow a state to remain on permanent DST year-round... it only allows a state to remain on standard time year-round.  In order for Florida's Sunshine Protection Act to take effect, similar legislation must be passed through the US Congress and that is what Marco Rubio is trying to do now.

Then why didn't they switch to Atlantic Standard Time?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 06, 2018, 05:03:15 PM
If that is what the people of Florida want, perhaps no one there will change their clocks next November.  Then they will have achieved what they want without having to lift a finger.

Federal laws doesn't allow a state to remain on permanent DST year-round... it only allows a state to remain on standard time year-round.  In order for Florida's Sunshine Protection Act to take effect, similar legislation must be passed through the US Congress and that is what Marco Rubio is trying to do now.

Then why didn't they switch to Atlantic Standard Time?
Because that is also federal domain. Feds get to draw time zones and establish DST dates. States may choose not to observe DST at all, but not to observe that on different dates or move to a different time zone.
Legally correct way of doing things (as far as I understand) would be to petition secretary of transportation requesting to be moved to a different time zone, not to tweak DST..
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 06, 2018, 05:09:43 PM
Yep, it would take an act of Congress for a state to change time zones.  The Secretary of Transportation would certainly deny Florida's request to change time zones seeing that the state is nowhere near the Atlantic Time Zone and all the surrounding states (North & East of Florida) are on Eastern Time.

Florida is going about it the right way... they just need to petition the U.S. Congress to amend the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to allow permanent DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on April 06, 2018, 05:48:20 PM
How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

Some businesses have regulated minimum hours of business, banks for instance.  Federally regulated transportation like railroads and airlines may need to go by legal local time in their state, not whatever the no-nothings want to set their clocks to.  For individual people, no one would care if they want to set their time on Nepal Standard Time (EDT +9h 45m) if they want, though that would sort of defeat the purpose of having a clock.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 06, 2018, 05:56:40 PM
How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

Some businesses have regulated minimum hours of business, banks for instance.  Federally regulated transportation like railroads and airlines may need to go by legal local time in their state, not whatever the no-nothings want to set their clocks to.  For individual people, no one would care if they want to set their time on Nepal Standard Time (EDT +9h 45m) if they want, though that would sort of defeat the purpose of having a clock.


But what would happen if a CEO of a major Florida company based their hours on permanent DST?  Short of confusing the hell out their customers, would there be any legal ramifications?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 06, 2018, 08:33:46 PM
How are the politicians going to force the people to change their clocks in November?

Some businesses have regulated minimum hours of business, banks for instance.  Federally regulated transportation like railroads and airlines may need to go byhttps://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=2316631;topic=22229.400;last_msg=2316631 legal local time in their state, not whatever the no-nothings want to set their clocks to.  For individual people, no one would care if they want to set their time on Nepal Standard Time (EDT +9h 45m) if they want, though that would sort of defeat the purpose of having a clock.


But what would happen if a CEO of a major Florida company based their hours on permanent DST?  Short of confusing the hell out their customers, would there be any legal ramifications?

They can do that even without any clock movement. Make 7 AM-3PM default office hours, end of story.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on April 06, 2018, 11:40:09 PM
Do we even know if the Uniform Time Act of 1966 is constitutional.  Has there ever been a legal suit brought?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Takumi on April 07, 2018, 12:14:11 AM
Dude. Just stop.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on April 07, 2018, 12:20:58 AM
Do we even know if the Uniform Time Act of 1966 is constitutional.  Has there ever been a legal suit brought?

I think the interstate commerce clause would be a pretty ironclad justification for the Uniform Time Act.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 07, 2018, 11:30:29 AM
Oregon lawmaker aims to make daylight saving time permanent
http://www.ktvz.com/news/oregon-lawmaker-aims-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent/715346420
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on April 07, 2018, 11:43:58 AM
Oregon lawmaker aims to make daylight saving time permanent
http://www.ktvz.com/news/oregon-lawmaker-aims-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent/715346420

And splitting the Portland metro area?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 07, 2018, 01:38:19 PM
Oregon lawmaker aims to make daylight saving time permanent
http://www.ktvz.com/news/oregon-lawmaker-aims-to-make-daylight-saving-time-permanent/715346420

And splitting the Portland metro area?
Quote
"My office has been in contact with legislators in Washington and California, and we are enthusiastic about people not having to change their clocks again.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on April 07, 2018, 05:01:34 PM
I'd be fine with this. I think more people would appreciate light in the evening than in the morning. As a 22 year old, I know I would. My grandparents? Not so much.

As discussed above, would our time zones change from Pacific to Mountain? Or Pacific DST? I think the former is the only thing allowed.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on April 07, 2018, 07:45:06 PM
Yep, it would take an act of Congress for a state to change time zones.  The Secretary of Transportation would certainly deny Florida's request to change time zones seeing that the state is nowhere near the Atlantic Time Zone and all the surrounding states (North & East of Florida) are on Eastern Time.

"Hey Mitch, it's Marco."

"Hello Marco, how are you?"

"I'm fine, and yourself?"

"I'm good too, thanks for asking."

"Hey Mitch, I need a favor. I need you to tell your wife to approve Florida's request to change time zones. You know that big bill you're wanting passed? I was leaning against it, but if you will convince your wife to approve this request, I will support your bill and will sign on as a co-sponsor."

"Well, Marco, that sounds fair. I will talk to Elaine tonight. I'm sure she will see the validity in your request and you'll have no problems getting it approved. And I appreciate your support on our legislation. I was hoping there would be something we could do to get you on board."

"Thanks, Mitch, I really appreciate it. Sounds like a win-win for both of us."

"Yes it does, Marco. See you on the Senate floor tomorrow."
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 09, 2018, 03:53:04 PM
Yep, it would take an act of Congress for a state to change time zones.  The Secretary of Transportation would certainly deny Florida's request to change time zones seeing that the state is nowhere near the Atlantic Time Zone and all the surrounding states (North & East of Florida) are on Eastern Time.

"Hey Mitch, it's Marco."

"Hello Marco, how are you?"

"I'm fine, and yourself?"

"I'm good too, thanks for asking."

"Hey Mitch, I need a favor. I need you to tell your wife to approve Florida's request to change time zones. You know that big bill you're wanting passed? I was leaning against it, but if you will convince your wife to approve this request, I will support your bill and will sign on as a co-sponsor."

"Well, Marco, that sounds fair. I will talk to Elaine tonight. I'm sure she will see the validity in your request and you'll have no problems getting it approved. And I appreciate your support on our legislation. I was hoping there would be something we could do to get you on board."

"Thanks, Mitch, I really appreciate it. Sounds like a win-win for both of us."

"Yes it does, Marco. See you on the Senate floor tomorrow."

But nobody in the state legislator is proposing that Florida switch time zones.  Even if Marco lobbied for Florida to change time zones, it wouldn't accomplish what they are after.  Yes, Florida wants later sunsets in the winter but they still want to be on the same time as NYC.  That's why Florida's Sunshine Protection Act is contingent on Congress amending the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to allow permanent DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 09, 2018, 04:57:46 PM
Yes, Florida wants later sunsets in the winter...

It’s worth mentioning that after year-round DST was enacted by Nixon on January 8, 1974, the NY Times published an article entitled “Schools Ask End to Daylight Time” on Jan. 31, 1974.  The article stated that eight Florida school-aged children had been killed in accidents since daylight time was imposed, compared to just 2 during the same period a year ago.  A spokesman for Florida’s state education department said that six of the deaths “were clearly attributable to the fact that children were going off to school in darkness”.   The article also mentions that meetings were set in Florida state legislature to consider switching to standard time. 

I question why only data from Florida was cited in the NY Times article from 1974.  Did other states potentially see a drop in the number of school-aged children killed in accidents since daylight time was imposed, compared to the same period a year ago?   What about the lives potentially saved in Florida during the evening commute when it was much lighter out than the year prior?  If 20 total lives were saved, but 6 school-aged children were killed… would that be seen as a net positive in reducing TOTAL fatalities?  Hard questions to answer i guess...

I do know a 2004 study analyzed the effects of daylight and daylight saving time on US pedestrian fatalities and motor vehicle occupant fatalities.  That study estimated that permanent DST would reduce pedestrian fatalities by 171 per year and reduce motor vehicle occupant fatalities by 195 per year. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457503000150
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on April 09, 2018, 05:12:48 PM
Yes, Florida wants later sunsets in the winter...

It’s worth mentioning that after year-round DST was enacted by Nixon on January 8, 1974, the NY Times published an article entitled “Schools Ask End to Daylight Time” on Jan. 31, 1974.  The article stated that eight Florida school-aged children had been killed in accidents since daylight time was imposed, compared to just 2 during the same period a year ago.  A spokesman for Florida’s state education department said that six of the deaths “were clearly attributable to the fact that children were going off to school in darkness”.   The article also mentions that meetings were set in Florida state legislature to consider switching to standard time. 

I question why only data from Florida was cited in the NY Times article from 1974.  Did other states potentially see a drop in the number of school-aged children killed in accidents since daylight time was imposed, compared to the same period a year ago?   What about the lives potentially saved in Florida during the evening commute when it was much lighter out than the year prior?  If 20 total lives were saved, but 6 school-aged children were killed… would that be seen as a net positive in reducing TOTAL fatalities?  Hard questions to answer i guess...

I do know a 2004 study analyzed the effects of daylight and daylight saving time on US pedestrian fatalities and motor vehicle occupant fatalities.  That study estimated that permanent DST would reduce pedestrian fatalities by 171 per year and reduce motor vehicle occupant fatalities by 195 per year. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457503000150


I don't have a reference handy, but a pro-Central Time group in Indiana did a similar study recently on the increase of morning accidents involving school-aged children when the sunrise is after 7am local time. 

There is no similar drop in afternoon accidents because even with earlier sunsets most, if not all, kids are already off buses by sunset.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: ghYHZ on April 23, 2018, 05:26:09 AM
Had to get an early start this morning and looking out over the Gulf of St. Lawrence….there was just a hint of light at 4:45 Atlantic Time. Sunrise was at 6:10 and Sunset will be at 8:05 this evening.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: KEVIN_224 on April 23, 2018, 08:01:01 AM
About 5:59 AM to 7:40 PM here by New Britain, CT today. (13 hours 41 minutes) :)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on April 23, 2018, 12:26:09 PM
About 5:59 AM to 7:40 PM here by New Britain, CT today. (13 hours 41 minutes) :)

Here's a cool tool (https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/rochester) that shows the amount of daylight year-round in a given place. It also includes the variations of twilight, which is interesting. Only 6h39m of true "night" last night in Rochester, from 9:50 PM to 4:28 AM.

Today's daylight in Rochester lasts from 6:15 AM to 8:02 PM. And, for the record, no, I do not have the slightest inkling of a wish that it was 5:15 AM to 7:02 PM  :-P
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 23, 2018, 12:58:06 PM
About 5:59 AM to 7:40 PM here by New Britain, CT today. (13 hours 41 minutes) :)

Here's a cool tool (https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/rochester) that shows the amount of daylight year-round in a given place. It also includes the variations of twilight, which is interesting. Only 6h39m of true "night" last night in Rochester, from 9:50 PM to 4:28 AM.

Today's daylight in Rochester lasts from 6:15 AM to 8:02 PM. And, for the record, no, I do not have the slightest inkling of a wish that it was 5:15 AM to 7:02 PM  :-P
would you prefer it to be 7:15 AM to 9:02 PM ? Double daylight time may be an answer!
Actually as good of an idea as general daylight is. Make it fully crazy with "winter time", "summer time" and "equinox time".. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on April 23, 2018, 09:39:26 PM
In order of my personal preference:

(1) As-is: 6:15 AM to 8:02 PM
(2) Double DST: 7:15 AM to :9:02 PM
(3) No DST: 5:15 AM to 7:02 PM

Not really a fan of either of the last two, so might as well leave it as-is. But may the debate continue - the fall time change is approaching  :paranoid: :D
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 24, 2018, 09:30:21 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

The problem isn't the time zone...it's where you live. 

You need to move further south to have a lot more consistency.  Orlando, Miami, even New Orleans will have sunrises mostly between 6 & 7.  The further north you are, the greater variance you'll have.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 24, 2018, 10:33:33 AM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 24, 2018, 10:48:18 AM
According to  Skopos Labs, Senate Bill S. 2537: Sunshine Protection Act of 2018 has a 13% chance of passing.  This is a bill that would make Daylight Saving Time permanent throughout the country.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/115/s2537/summary
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Road Hog on April 24, 2018, 11:52:32 AM
If it passes, I’d bet folding money it would be repealed within a year. I personally like the idea because I hate when it gets dark at 5, but I sense great opposition to it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on April 24, 2018, 12:32:24 PM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

Note that I said largest possible percentage.  If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, that would push a lot of summer sunrises before 6am.  The farther north you are, the larger the variance in your daylight times, and the smaller that 'largest possible percentage' becomes.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on April 24, 2018, 12:36:31 PM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

Note that I said largest possible percentage.  If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, that would push a lot of summer sunrises before 6am.  The farther north you are, the larger the variance in your daylight times, and the smaller that 'largest possible percentage' becomes.
If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, this would result in the maximum number of days with sunrise between 6 AM and 7 AM. The closer it is to the solstice, the less difference from day to day.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on April 25, 2018, 07:41:44 AM
I wish my time zone would be adjusted so that we wouldn't have the same debate about this posted twice a year. . .
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 25, 2018, 08:24:43 AM
I'm not about to go thru the pages to test this theory, but I wonder if most of the people here upset and/or wanting DST changed live further north where they're more affected by it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on April 25, 2018, 08:40:39 AM
Everyone, except those in two states, is affected because the clocks have to be changed twice a year with DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 25, 2018, 09:10:29 AM
I'm not about to go thru the pages to test this theory, but I wonder if most of the people here upset and/or wanting DST changed live further north where they're more affected by it.

Eh, I've lived most of my life further north (north of the 45th parallel, although now I don't), and I hate DST. Not because of when it puts sunrise and sunset (or because of what time those things are when it isn't in effect), but because I have to change my clock and adjust my daily routine twice a year.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on April 25, 2018, 09:21:07 AM
I wish my time zone would be adjusted so that we wouldn't have the same debate about this posted twice a year. . .

Actually, I've been trying to keep the thread active to remind people that it exists. That way, we can use this thread come fall instead of someone starting a new one  :-P

Regarding the northern latitudes, I consider Upstate NY to be a northern latitude (relative to most of the US). Despite this, I have no real problems with DST as it exists now. We still have long evenings in the summer and short evenings in the winter... but no matter how big your annual daylight swing is, it still comes down to whether you want the daylight in the morning or the evening. DST works as a happy-medium, and eliminating it (or doubling it) would be by far inferior options.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 25, 2018, 09:25:43 AM
Everyone, except those in two states, is affected because the clocks have to be changed twice a year with DST.

Depends on how one is 'affected'.  Taking the most recent sub-discussion, revolving around consistent sunrises, someone in Florida will be less affected than someone in Maine.  That's what I'm getting at.  If we're talking about the effect of changing clocks twice a year, then we might as well have a whole thread about power outages when we need to go around resetting clocks when the power returns.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on April 25, 2018, 03:51:20 PM
I'm not about to go thru the pages to test this theory, but I wonder if most of the people here upset and/or wanting DST changed live further north where they're more affected by it.

My own theory is that people who live south of about 35 degrees north don't feel much benefit from DST because their day length doesn't change as much, so they object more strongly to changing their clocks.
People north of 35 also dislike changing their clocks, but they feel the benefit of changing more.

(And people in non-panhandle Alaska have such extreme variation that nothing is going help them get sunrise around the right time of day, so they might as well not bother with the time change if it weren't for a consistent time difference to other places in the world.)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on April 25, 2018, 07:30:31 PM
I wish my time zone would be adjusted so that we wouldn't have the same debate about this posted twice a year. . .

Actually, I've been trying to keep the thread active to remind people that it exists. That way, we can use this thread come fall instead of someone starting a new one  :-P

Yeah, it will be great. Everyone will post the exact same things they did in the last 17 pages. There will be one important difference, which is that the dates on each post will start with "2018-10-" instead of "2018-04-".

Then stay tuned for another 17 pages of the exact same arguments, with post dates beginning "2019-03-"!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 26, 2018, 03:50:10 PM
In the summary of Senate Bill S. 2537, it discusses how Russia went back to standard time in 2014 after switching to permanent DST in 2011. 

Quote
Russia switched to permanent DST in 2011, but reversed themselves in 2014due primarily to the unpopularity of such late sunrises during the winter — with most of the country’s populace waking up, getting ready, and commuting to work in complete darkness.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/115/s2537/summary

One important note though… the solar noon in many Russian cities running standard time is still later than what solar noon would be in North America cities running permanent DST.  In another post, I had mentioned that many regions in the world are in the wrong time-zone if you are basing it strictly on longitude.  Many countries seem to favor to push back their solar noon to later in the day, by having their time-zones intrude into western time-zone neighbors.  For whatever reason, America doesn’t push their time-zones to intrude much into their western time-zone neighbor.  So essentially, permanent DST in America would act much the same way that standard time does in the rest of the world.  Consider Valverde del Fresno, Spain... the sun doesn't set till 10PM  during the summer solstice.  You can’t find that late of a sunset in America along the same latitude... for example Lafayette, Indiana is on the extreme western edge of the Eastern Time Zone and has the same latitude as Valverde del Fresno....  the sun sets there at 9:20PM... a full 40 minutes earlier.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 26, 2018, 04:27:24 PM
Consider Valverde del Fresno, Spain... the sun doesn't set till 10PM  during the summer solstice.  You can’t find that late of a sunset in America along the same latitude... for example Lafayette, Indiana is on the extreme western edge of the Eastern Time Zone and has the same latitude as Valverde del Fresno....  the sun sets there at 9:20PM... a full 40 minutes earlier.

Madrid, Spain is west of Greenwich, England.  Spain should really share the same time as England.  It's just kind of funny to me that London is on Greenwich Mean Time, yet no other countries want to join them.  Even the UK abandons GMT in the summer during their Daylight Saving Time.  Short of a few countries in Africa and Iceland, no countries are on GMT permanently.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on April 26, 2018, 08:09:57 PM
I'd hardly call it "the rest of the world".  In North America, just about everything is somewhat close, with the exceptions of Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Cancún (which switched to permanent DST), most of Alaska, the Yukon, and part of the Northwest Territories.  Iceland and part of Greenland seem to be on permanent DST.  Most of South America is somewhat close, with the exceptions of Uruguay, Chile (two hours ahead of where they should be by longitude (!)), and Argentina.  Europe was just about perfect until World War II (when France and Spain switched to CET; Belarus has since switched to MSK for political reasons).  Most of south and east Asia are just about perfect sans China; ditto for Australia and New Zealand.  The Middle East is pretty good too.  Same for Africa with the exceptions of Libya, Namibia, and some countries in West Africa.

Russia is interesting because their time zones already seem to be one hour ahead for the most part; I didn't realize they were no longer on permanent DST.  That must have been like double DST!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 26, 2018, 10:05:24 PM
Russia is interesting because their time zones already seem to be one hour ahead for the most part; I didn't realize they were no longer on permanent DST.  That must have been like double DST!

Yeah, it really was like double DST for Russia when it went to permanent DST in 2011.  During the winter solstice the sun rose at 10:51 AM and set at 6:01 PM in Novosibirsk (the 3rd most populous city in Russia).  Now that it's back to standard time, the sun rises at an early 9:51 AM  :-D

Edmonton, Alberta is about the same latitude as Novosibirsk, Russia.  Running standard time during the winter solstice, the sun rises in Edmonton at 8:48 AM and sets at 4:16 PM.  If permanent DST was enacted, Edmonton would pretty much have the same sunrise/sunset times as Novosibirsk (ie. North American permanent DST would mimic Russian Standard time).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on April 27, 2018, 04:06:42 AM
It's just kind of funny to me that London is on Greenwich Mean Time, yet no other countries want to join them.  Even the UK abandons GMT in the summer during their Daylight Saving Time.  Short of a few countries in Africa and Iceland, no countries are on GMT permanently.
Portugal and Ireland are on GMT in winter, but - like the UK currently - have to do DST per EU regulations so, even if they wanted to (they don't), ditching DST won't happen. And Morocco makes 4. The 'few' (ie 12) African countries, Iceland and a couple of other places, have a higher population those 4 countries that use WET with DST (plus the Faeroes, Jersey, Guernsey, Man, Canary Islands that are on the same time).

Also, there are only 8 countries on the meridian. UK, France, Spain, Algeria, Mali, Burkina Faso, Togo, Ghana. The three European countries use DST (a majority don't) and three countries use CET (France, Spain, Algeria). So half the countries on the Meridian are on the base UTC+0 year round.

Spain and France have big movements to ditch Berlin Time - which was imposed on them by fascists (and in a very literal sense!). For Spain, it's very much a health and productivity issue - the whole country is sleep deprived and get nearly an hour less sleep than the EU average (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/22/spaniards-sleep-time-zone-spain).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 27, 2018, 12:11:37 PM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

Note that I said largest possible percentage.  If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, that would push a lot of summer sunrises before 6am.  The farther north you are, the larger the variance in your daylight times, and the smaller that 'largest possible percentage' becomes.
If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, this would result in the maximum number of days with sunrise between 6 AM and 7 AM. The closer it is to the solstice, the less difference from day to day.

I wonder if you could define no-time-change-based time-zones by turning it into an optimization problem, using two co-equal rules:

Minimize the amount of darkness (time before civil dawn) occurring after 6:30am throughout the year
Minimize the amount of daylight (time after sunrise) occurring before 5:30am throughout the year

...and then tweak as needed to recognize areas with economic connections, the perceived need to be on even-hour offsets from UTC, etc.

This is an intriguing enough problem that I might have to tackle it the next time I have a free weekend (like that'll ever happen...)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 27, 2018, 12:30:55 PM
My preference would be to have my time zone and the timing of the beginning and end of DST to create the largest possible percentage of days where the sunrise is between 6 and 7.

Bellingham, WA only gets 8 hours and 16 minutes of daylight during the winter solstice.  I picked Bellingham because it has one of the most northern latitudes of any major city in the continental United States.  If the times were adjusted so that the sun rose at 7AM, the sun would set in Bellingham at 3:16PM.  As it is currently, the sun rises at 8AM and sets at 4:16PM.  With perpetual daylight saving time, it would rise at 9AM and set at 5:16PM.

Note that I said largest possible percentage.  If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, that would push a lot of summer sunrises before 6am.  The farther north you are, the larger the variance in your daylight times, and the smaller that 'largest possible percentage' becomes.
If the time zone was adjusted so that the sun rose at 7am on the winter solstice, this would result in the maximum number of days with sunrise between 6 AM and 7 AM. The closer it is to the solstice, the less difference from day to day.

I wonder if you could define no-time-change-based time-zones by turning it into an optimization problem, using two co-equal rules:

Minimize the amount of darkness (time before civil dawn) occurring after 6:30am throughout the year
Minimize the amount of daylight (time after sunrise) occurring before 5:30am throughout the year

...and then tweak as needed to recognize areas with economic connections, the perceived need to be on even-hour offsets from UTC, etc.

This is an intriguing enough problem that I might have to tackle it the next time I have a free weekend (like that'll ever happen...)
And maintaining 1 hour granularity?
THat is what placing area into it straight time zone would do. No big optimization required.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 27, 2018, 01:05:04 PM
And maintaining 1 hour granularity?
THat is what placing area into it straight time zone would do. No big optimization required.

Let me re-frame the problem:

Question: What time zone should a particular place observe?

Criteria:

1. No DST (the reason threads like this get started every spring and fall).

2. Time zone must be expressed as a whole-hour difference from UTC, for simplicity.

3. Within those two constraints, the indicated local time zone shall be selected as to minimize the sum of:

a. Total time before civil dawn occurring after 6:30am through the year
b. Total time after sunrise occurring before 5:30am through the year

4. The selected time zone may deviate from the indicated time zone to keep economically linked areas (CMSAs? TV markets?) on the same time zone.


The result will still probably be 4-5 time zones for the continental US...but the borders will be a little different.

I don't actually know what it would look like on a map.  That's part of why I'd love to take a weekend, play with the data, and see what happens.

BTW, before someone asks:

-- the use of dawn and sunrise in 3a/3b is intentional.  I'm trying to hypothesize criteria that allow for some ability to accommodate differences in latitude.

-- I'm not wedded to those specific times.  Frankly, I personally don't care since my daily schedule is linked more to sunrise than the clock, but I'm trying to recognize the two big complaints that always come up in time zone/DST discussions:  "I don't like kids going to school / getting ready for work in the dark" and "I'd rather have daylight after normal work hours than before".  I'm open to suggestions for alternatives.

This kind of exercise could also be used to describe when an optimal change between standard and daylight saving time ought to occur...but I won't go there since the time changes annoy me. :)

I wish I weren't running late on something for work.  This would be a kind of cool/fun programming/mapping weekend project.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on April 27, 2018, 01:22:08 PM
^^^

As long as your time zone boundaries keep my part of Kentucky in the easternmost time zone in the US, I'll be glad.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate Central time?  :bigass:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on April 27, 2018, 01:30:25 PM
Let me re-frame the problem:

Question: What time zone should a particular place observe?

Criteria:

1. No DST (the reason threads like this get started every spring and fall).

2. Time zone must be expressed as a whole-hour difference from UTC, for simplicity.

3. Within those two constraints, the indicated local time zone shall be selected as to minimize the sum of:

a. Total time before civil dawn occurring after 6:30am through the year
b. Total time after sunrise occurring before 5:30am through the year

4. The selected time zone may deviate from the indicated time zone to keep economically linked areas (CMSAs? TV markets?) on the same time zone.


The result will still probably be 4-5 time zones for the continental US...but the borders will be a little different.

I don't actually know what it would look like on a map.  That's part of why I'd love to take a weekend, play with the data, and see what happens.

BTW, before someone asks:

-- the use of dawn and sunrise in 3a/3b is intentional.  I'm trying to hypothesize criteria that allow for some ability to accommodate differences in latitude.

-- I'm not wedded to those specific times.  Frankly, I personally don't care since my daily schedule is linked more to sunrise than the clock, but I'm trying to recognize the two big complaints that always come up in time zone/DST discussions:  "I don't like kids going to school / getting ready for work in the dark" and "I'd rather have daylight after normal work hours than before".  I'm open to suggestions for alternatives.

This kind of exercise could also be used to describe when an optimal change between standard and daylight saving time ought to occur...but I won't go there since the time changes annoy me. :)

I wish I weren't running late on something for work.  This would be a kind of cool/fun programming/mapping weekend project.
I'm also curious to see how that would look worldwide.  Too bad I'm not quite sure of the easiest way to do it.  It sounds really interesting.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 27, 2018, 01:34:21 PM
Have I mentioned lately how much I hate Central time?  :bigass:

But Central Time is God's Time!  Weekend afternoon sports naturally roll into primetime, and Carson's...er, Letterman's...er, Colbert's monologue wraps up at a reasonable bedtime, just as God intended.  :bigass:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 27, 2018, 01:53:08 PM
And maintaining 1 hour granularity?
THat is what placing area into it straight time zone would do. No big optimization required.

Let me re-frame the problem:

Question: What time zone should a particular place observe?

Criteria:

1. No DST (the reason threads like this get started every spring and fall).

2. Time zone must be expressed as a whole-hour difference from UTC, for simplicity.

3. Within those two constraints, the indicated local time zone shall be selected as to minimize the sum of:

a. Total time before civil dawn occurring after 6:30am through the year
b. Total time after sunrise occurring before 5:30am through the year

4. The selected time zone may deviate from the indicated time zone to keep economically linked areas (CMSAs? TV markets?) on the same time zone.


The result will still probably be 4-5 time zones for the continental US...but the borders will be a little different.

I don't actually know what it would look like on a map.  That's part of why I'd love to take a weekend, play with the data, and see what happens.

BTW, before someone asks:

-- the use of dawn and sunrise in 3a/3b is intentional.  I'm trying to hypothesize criteria that allow for some ability to accommodate differences in latitude.

-- I'm not wedded to those specific times.  Frankly, I personally don't care since my daily schedule is linked more to sunrise than the clock, but I'm trying to recognize the two big complaints that always come up in time zone/DST discussions:  "I don't like kids going to school / getting ready for work in the dark" and "I'd rather have daylight after normal work hours than before".  I'm open to suggestions for alternatives.

This kind of exercise could also be used to describe when an optimal change between standard and daylight saving time ought to occur...but I won't go there since the time changes annoy me. :)

I wish I weren't running late on something for work.  This would be a kind of cool/fun programming/mapping weekend project.

Keep it simple. You basically require sunrise at equinox to be at 6 AM, that minimizes your unwanted hours.  That means putting noon as close to 11.59 AM as practical - that is, observing as-drawn time zone of closest (15 deg)*x meridian.
Some shift may occur since you define sunrise in 2 slightly different ways in (3)(a) and (3)(b), something like optimal noon at 12.15 PM -  but that would be totally absorbed by (4).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 27, 2018, 02:03:20 PM
Keep it simple. You basically require sunrise at equinox to be at 6 AM, that minimizes your unwanted hours.  That means putting noon as close to 11.59 AM as practical - that is, observing as-drawn time zone of closest (15 deg)*x meridian.
Some shift may occur since you define sunrise in 2 slightly different ways in (3)(a) and (3)(b), something like optimal noon at 12.15 PM -  but that would be totally absorbed by (4).

The difference in 3(a) and 3(b) should add a little bit of a longitudinal adjustment to it...but admittedly not a huge one at least as regards to CONUS.

I was also toying around with some alternative criteria...which would justify the fun of building a nifty macro-driven spreadsheet or bit of R code.  It wouldn't be as much fun if it were simplified.  :)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 27, 2018, 02:09:41 PM
Suncalc.org is a great resource.  Click on any point in the world map and it will show sunrise, sunset, dusk, dawn, and sun duration times for that location.  It will also show what timezone the location is in and will tell you if it's on DST or not if you expand on "geodata for the selected location".  It also gives you sun paths and shadow lengths and solar eclipse info if you are interested.

https://www.suncalc.org/#/40.3549,-3.5815,5/2017.06.21/15:37/1/0
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 27, 2018, 02:24:48 PM
Keep it simple. You basically require sunrise at equinox to be at 6 AM, that minimizes your unwanted hours.  That means putting noon as close to 11.59 AM as practical - that is, observing as-drawn time zone of closest (15 deg)*x meridian.
Some shift may occur since you define sunrise in 2 slightly different ways in (3)(a) and (3)(b), something like optimal noon at 12.15 PM -  but that would be totally absorbed by (4).

The difference in 3(a) and 3(b) should add a little bit of a longitudinal adjustment to it...but admittedly not a huge one at least as regards to CONUS.

I was also toying around with some alternative criteria...which would justify the fun of building a nifty macro-driven spreadsheet or bit of R code.  It wouldn't be as much fun if it were simplified.  :)

Well, here are some possibilities
(weight 10)  minimum of darkness after 8.30 AM
(weight 1) minimum of darkness after 7.30 or 8 AM
(weight  0.5) minimum of darkness after 6.30 AM
 (weight 1) minimum of sunlight before 5 AM
 (weight 2) minimum of darkness before 5 PM
 (weight 0.2) minimum of darkness before 6.30 PM
 (weight 0.2) minimum of sunlight after 10 PM


Alternatively, just use t^2 as a weight factor for unwanted lighting conditions. 

But everything will eventually boil down to "what is acceptable morning span"
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: SP Cook on April 27, 2018, 02:25:15 PM
MikeTheActuary expresses the formula better than anyone else has.   

As to CT vs ET or whatever.  I don't care that much.  I work a day job and that is not going to change.  My child is grown and does not catch a school bus.  I'm really not that much of an outdoor person.  The only real difference in time zones comes down to TV and TV sports.

If you live in ET or PT, "prime time" is 8-11 and Carson's pale imitators are 11:35.  If you live in CT or MT, then it is 7-10 and 10:35.  Both have their advantages.  There is something to being unrushed which ET gives you, but there is also something to being able to finish prime time and start the later shows w/o giving up 8 hours.

Sports are an issue.  It is great to get out west and see sports on weekdays in the early afternoon and on weekends to have games as early as 9 AM
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 27, 2018, 02:45:33 PM
Well, here are some possibilities
(weight 10)  minimum of darkness after 8.30 AM
(weight 1) minimum of darkness after 7.30 or 8 AM
(weight  0.5) minimum of darkness after 6.30 AM
 (weight 1) minimum of sunlight before 5 AM
 (weight 2) minimum of darkness before 5 PM
 (weight 0.2) minimum of darkness before 6.30 PM
 (weight 0.2) minimum of sunlight after 10 PM


Alternatively, just use t^2 as a weight factor for unwanted lighting conditions. 

But everything will eventually boil down to "what is acceptable morning span"

True.

Or.... another set of critieria could be to maximize the number of hours that are "correct", say along these lines:

(using 24 hour times)

0030 = night
0130 = night
0230 = night
0330 = night
0430 = night
0530 = night or twilight
0630 = twilight or daylight
0730 = daylight
...
1630 = daylight
1730 = daylight or twilight
1830 = daylight or twilight
1930 = daylight or twilight
2030 = daylight or twilight or night
2130 = twilight or night
2230 = night
2330 = night

Perhaps give double- or triple-weight to the critical hours of morning commute and after-school+evening commute....

I think the end product with these criteria would end up looking like the 15° "ideal" zones shifted a bit to the west.

Oh yeah; this is SO going to the top of the "fun geek project when I have the time" pile.  :D
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 27, 2018, 03:02:43 PM

I think the end product with these criteria would end up looking like the 15° "ideal" zones shifted a bit to the west.

Oh yeah; this is SO going to the top of the "fun geek project when I have the time" pile.  :D
Probably slightly bent bands compared to traditional north-south bands - to accommodate for more morning sunlight in  shorter winter days
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 28, 2018, 02:14:02 AM
Thanks to some handy sunrise/sunset calculation functions I had tucked away, I now have a spreadsheet built that can be used to tackle the optimization I described in my last post.

I added weight to morning commute / afternoon / evening from what I detailed earlier.

I defined points and "ideal" lightness/darkness as follows:

0030, 0130, 0230, 0330, 0430 should be Night
0530 should be Night or Twilight
0600, 0630, 0645 should be Twilight or Day
0700, 0715, 0730, 0745, 0800, 0830 .... 1530, 1630 should be Day
1700, 1730, 1800, 1830, 1900, 1930, 20,00 should be Day or Twilight
2030 should be Day, Twilight, or Night
2130 should be Twilight or Night
2230, 2300 should be Night

I calculate the status of each of those points for each day of the year. I give one point for each point, each day.

My objective is to maximize the number of points a time zone selection yields.

Here's what I get for a handful of cities (with a caveat that the Excel VBA function I'm using for sunrise/sunset isn't perfect):

City: TimeZone [June sunrise/sunset] [December sunrise/sunset]

St. John's NF: UTC-3 [6/21:0433/2032] [12/21:0816/1642]
Bangor, Maine: UTC-4 [6/21:0449/2024] [12/21:0809/1657]
Washington, DC: UTC-5 [6/21:0443/1937] [12/21:0723/1649]
Toronto, ON: UTC-5 [6/21:0436/2003] [12/21:0748/1643]
Miami, FL: UTC-4 [6/21:0630/2015] [12/21:0803/1835]
Atlanta, GA: UTC-5 [6/21:0528/1952] [12/21:0739/1733]
Indianapolis, IN: UTC-5 [6/21:0517/2016] [12/21:0802/1724]
Thunder Bay, ON: UTC-5 [6/21:0456/2102] [12/21:0846/1705]
Memphis, TN: UTC-6 [6/21:0446/1918] [12/21:0705/1652]
New Orleans, LA: UTC-6 [6/21:0500/1904] [12/21:0652/1705]
Dallas, TX: UTC-6 [6/21:0520/1939] [12/21:0726/1725]
Odessa, TX: UTC-6 [6/21:0545/1958] [12/21:0746/1750]
Denver, CO: UTC-6 [6/21:0532/2031] [12/21:0817/1739]
Saskatoon, SK: UTC-6 [6/21:0446/2132] [12/21:0913/1656]
Salt Lake City, UT: UTC-7 [6/21:0456/2002] [12/21:0749/1703]
Phoenix, AZ: UTC-7 [6/21:0519/1942] [12/21:0729/1725]
Edmonton, AB: UTC-7 [6/21:0404/2107] [12/21:0848/1616]
Los Angeles, CA: UTC-7 [6/21:0542/2008] [12/21:0755/1748]
Seattle, WA: UTC-7 [6/21:0512/2111] [12/21:0855/1721]
San Francisco, CA: UTC-8 [6/21:0448/1935] [12/21:0722/1654]
Anchorage, AK: UTC-9 [6/21:0320/2243] [12/21:1014/1542]
Honolulu HI: UTC-10 [6/21:0551/1916] [12/21:0705/1755]

I think I might need to give a bit more weight to the morning criteria.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 20160805 on April 28, 2018, 11:51:44 AM
I know this will probably get buried, but as someone who goes to bed pretty early (21:00 or just after), I see no point in gratuitous evening daylight and thus favour standard time, which for my location is GMT-6.  That would make our June daylight roughly 4:00-19:40 and December 7:25-16:15, and it would eliminate late-evening sleep problems, problems associated with changing the clock, and the oddity of the latest sunrise being in early November.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 28, 2018, 06:42:36 PM
I played with my algorithm a bit more, aiming for results that, for places on the whole multiples of 15° longitude, the result (before rounding) would be a half-hour later than standard time (a logical compromise for ST and DST), and that at high latitudes things wouldn't get too screwy.

New algorithm:

For each day of the year, for each of the following time points, award the following points:
0030, 0130, 0230, 0330, 0430:  10 points if night
0530: 4 points if night, 4 points if twilight, 2 points if day
0600: 3-1/3 points regardless
0630: 2 points if night, 4 points if twilight, 4 points if day
0645, 0700: 5 points if twilight, 5 points if day
0715: 4 points if twilight, 6 points if day
0730: 2 points if twilight, 8 points if day
0745, 0800, 0830 [and every xx30 until] 1630, 1700: 10 points if day
1730: 1 point if twilight, 9 points if day
1800: 3 points if twilight, 7 points if day
1830: 4 points if twilight, 6 points if day
1900: 1 point if night, 4 points if twilight, 5 points if day
1930: 2 points if night, 4 points if twilight, 4 points if day
2000: 3-1/3 points
2030: 4 points if night, 4 points if twilight, 2 points if day
2130, 2230, 2330: 10 points if night

...which seems to do a pretty good job of balancing "commute in some light", "'extra' daylight in evening in the summer" (sorry former RandomDude!), and "no time change".

If some of the weightings seem a little odd...well, there was trial and error at work.  :)

I ran it through the same selection of cities, and quickly observed something: if you don't want an indicated time-zone boundary running through the Northeast Corridor, the "whole hour offsets from UTC" has to be relaxed.

So, here's what my spreadsheet is putting out now (again with the caveat that the sunrise/sunset calculations are imperfect):

St. John's NF: UTC-3.5 [6/21:0403/2002] [12/21:0746/1612]   (Current = [6/21: 0503/2102] [12/21: 0746/1612])
Bangor, Maine: UTC-4.5 [6/21:0419/1955] [12/21:0740/1627]   (Current = [6/21: 0449/2025] [12/21: 0710/1557])
Washington, DC: UTC-4.5 [6/21:0513/2007] [12/21:0753/1720]   (Current = [6/21: 0543/2037] [12/21: 0723/1649])
Toronto, ON: UTC-5.5 [6/21:0406/1933] [12/21:0718/1613]   (Current = [6/21: 0536/2103] [12/21: 0748/1643])
Miami, FL: UTC-4.5 [6/21:0600/1945] [12/21:0733/1805]   (Current = [6/21: 0630/2015] [12/21: 0703/1735])
Atlanta, GA: UTC-5.5 [6/21:0457/1922] [12/21:0709/1703]   (Current = [6/21: 0628/2052] [12/21: 0739/1733])
Indianapolis, IN: UTC-5.5 [6/21:0447/1946] [12/21:0733/1653]   (Current = [6/21: 0617/2116] [12/21: 0802/1724])
Thunder Bay, ON: UTC-5.5 [6/21:0425/2032] [12/21:0816/1634]   (Current = [6/21: 0456/2102] [12/21: 0746/1605])
Memphis, TN: UTC-5.5 [6/21:0516/1948] [12/21:0735/1722]   (Current = [6/21: 0546/2018] [12/21: 0705/1652])
New Orleans, LA: UTC-5.5 [6/21:0530/1935] [12/21:0722/1735]   (Current = [6/21: 0600/2004] [12/21: 0652/1705])
Dallas, TX: UTC-5.5 [6/21:0550/2008] [12/21:0756/1755]   (Current = [6/21: 0620/2039] [12/21: 0726/1725])
Odessa, TX: UTC-6.5 [6/21:0515/1929] [12/21:0716/1720]   (Current = [6/21: 0645/2058] [12/21: 0746/1750])
Denver, CO: UTC-6.5 [6/21:0502/2001] [12/21:0748/1709]   (Current = [6/21: 0532/2032] [12/21: 0718/1639])
Saskatoon, SK: UTC-6.5 [6/21:0415/2101] [12/21:0843/1626]   (Current = [6/21: 0446/2132] [12/21: 0913/1656])
Salt Lake City, UT: UTC-6.5 [6/21:0527/2032] [12/21:0818/1734]   (Current = [6/21: 0556/2102] [12/21: 0749/1703])
Phoenix, AZ: UTC-6.5 [6/21:0549/2011] [12/21:0758/1755]   (Current = [6/21: 0519/1942] [12/21: 0729/1725])
Edmonton, AB: UTC-6.5 [6/21:0434/2138] [12/21:0919/1646]   (Current = [6/21: 0504/2207] [12/21: 0848/1616])
Los Angeles, CA: UTC-7.5 [6/21:0512/1938] [12/21:0725/1718]   (Current = [6/21: 0542/2008] [12/21: 0655/1648])
Seattle, WA: UTC-7.5 [6/21:0441/2041] [12/21:0825/1650]   (Current = [6/21: 0511/2111] [12/21: 0755/1620])
San Francisco, CA: UTC-7.5 [6/21:0518/2005] [12/21:0752/1725]   (Current = [6/21: 0548/2035] [12/21: 0722/1654])
Anchorage, AK: UTC-8.5 [6/21:0350/2313] [12/21:1044/1611]   (Current = [6/21: 0420/2343] [12/21: 1014/1542])
Honolulu HI: UTC-9.5 [6/21:0620/1947] [12/21:0735/1825]   (Current = [6/21: 0551/1916] [12/21: 0705/1755])
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mrsman on April 29, 2018, 08:14:48 PM
Thanks to some handy sunrise/sunset calculation functions I had tucked away, I now have a spreadsheet built that can be used to tackle the optimization I described in my last post.

I added weight to morning commute / afternoon / evening from what I detailed earlier.

I defined points and "ideal" lightness/darkness as follows:

0030, 0130, 0230, 0330, 0430 should be Night
0530 should be Night or Twilight
0600, 0630, 0645 should be Twilight or Day
0700, 0715, 0730, 0745, 0800, 0830 .... 1530, 1630 should be Day
1700, 1730, 1800, 1830, 1900, 1930, 20,00 should be Day or Twilight
2030 should be Day, Twilight, or Night
2130 should be Twilight or Night
2230, 2300 should be Night

I calculate the status of each of those points for each day of the year. I give one point for each point, each day.

My objective is to maximize the number of points a time zone selection yields.

Here's what I get for a handful of cities (with a caveat that the Excel VBA function I'm using for sunrise/sunset isn't perfect):

City: TimeZone [June sunrise/sunset] [December sunrise/sunset]

St. John's NF: UTC-3 [6/21:0433/2032] [12/21:0816/1642]
Bangor, Maine: UTC-4 [6/21:0449/2024] [12/21:0809/1657]
Washington, DC: UTC-5 [6/21:0443/1937] [12/21:0723/1649]
Toronto, ON: UTC-5 [6/21:0436/2003] [12/21:0748/1643]
Miami, FL: UTC-4 [6/21:0630/2015] [12/21:0803/1835]
Atlanta, GA: UTC-5 [6/21:0528/1952] [12/21:0739/1733]
Indianapolis, IN: UTC-5 [6/21:0517/2016] [12/21:0802/1724]
Thunder Bay, ON: UTC-5 [6/21:0456/2102] [12/21:0846/1705]
Memphis, TN: UTC-6 [6/21:0446/1918] [12/21:0705/1652]
New Orleans, LA: UTC-6 [6/21:0500/1904] [12/21:0652/1705]
Dallas, TX: UTC-6 [6/21:0520/1939] [12/21:0726/1725]
Odessa, TX: UTC-6 [6/21:0545/1958] [12/21:0746/1750]
Denver, CO: UTC-6 [6/21:0532/2031] [12/21:0817/1739]
Saskatoon, SK: UTC-6 [6/21:0446/2132] [12/21:0913/1656]
Salt Lake City, UT: UTC-7 [6/21:0456/2002] [12/21:0749/1703]
Phoenix, AZ: UTC-7 [6/21:0519/1942] [12/21:0729/1725]
Edmonton, AB: UTC-7 [6/21:0404/2107] [12/21:0848/1616]
Los Angeles, CA: UTC-7 [6/21:0542/2008] [12/21:0755/1748]
Seattle, WA: UTC-7 [6/21:0512/2111] [12/21:0855/1721]
San Francisco, CA: UTC-8 [6/21:0448/1935] [12/21:0722/1654]
Anchorage, AK: UTC-9 [6/21:0320/2243] [12/21:1014/1542]
Honolulu HI: UTC-10 [6/21:0551/1916] [12/21:0705/1755]

I think I might need to give a bit more weight to the morning criteria.

This is amazing work.  Thank you.

If I had to make adjustments to this, I would put in a grand rule of whole number hours from UTC only
and winter solstice sunrise between 0700 and 0759 [excluding Alaska], which would do the following to your list:

Cities listed in absolute order of sunrise, from UTC, on the winter solstice:

ATL STD TIME
St. John's NF: UTC-4 [6/21:0333/1932] [12/21:0716/1542]

EST
Miami, FL: UTC-5 [6/21:0530/1915] [12/21:0703/1735]
Bangor, Maine: UTC-5 [6/21:0349/1924] [12/21:0709/1557]
Washington, DC: UTC-5 [6/21:0443/1937] [12/21:0723/1649]
Atlanta, GA: UTC-5 [6/21:0528/1952] [12/21:0739/1733]
Toronto, ON: UTC-5 [6/21:0436/2003] [12/21:0748/1643]
New Orleans, LA: UTC-5 [6/21:0600/2004] [12/21:0752/1805]

CST
Indianapolis, IN: UTC-6 [6/21:0417/1916] [12/21:0702/1624]
Memphis, TN: UTC-6 [6/21:0446/1918] [12/21:0705/1652]
Dallas, TX: UTC-6 [6/21:0520/1939] [12/21:0726/1725]
Thunder Bay, ON: UTC-6 [6/21:0356/2002] [12/21:0746/1605]
Odessa, TX: UTC-6 [6/21:0545/1958] [12/21:0746/1750]

MST
Denver, CO: UTC-7 [6/21:0432/1931] [12/21:0717/1639]
Phoenix, AZ: UTC-7 [6/21:0519/1942] [12/21:0729/1725]
Salt Lake City, UT: UTC-7 [6/21:0456/2002] [12/21:0749/1703]
Los Angeles, CA: UTC-7 [6/21:0542/2008] [12/21:0755/1748]

PST
Saskatoon, SK: UTC-8 [6/21:0246/1932] [12/21:0713/1456]
San Francisco, CA: UTC-8 [6/21:0448/1935] [12/21:0722/1654]
Edmonton, AB: UTC-8 [6/21:0304/2007] [12/21:0748/1516]
Seattle, WA: UTC-8 [6/21:0412/2011] [12/21:0755/1621]


HAWAII TIME
Honolulu HI: UTC-10 [6/21:0551/1916] [12/21:0705/1755]

ALASKA TIME
Anchorage, AK: UTC-9 [6/21:0320/2243] [12/21:1014/1542]

(Hopefully my adjustments did not mess up your calculaions Mike, please check my work.)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 30, 2018, 10:09:24 AM
PST
Saskatoon, SK: UTC-8 [6/21:0246/1932] [12/21:0713/1456]
San Francisco, CA: UTC-8 [6/21:0448/1935] [12/21:0722/1654]
Edmonton, AB: UTC-8 [6/21:0304/2007] [12/21:0748/1516]
Seattle, WA: UTC-8 [6/21:0412/2011] [12/21:0755/1621]

Saskatoon looks a little out of wack.  Currently in Saskatoon dawn begins at 03:56 and dusk ends at 22:20 during the summer solstice.  Under your proposal, dawn begins at 01:56 and dusk ends at 20:20.  Saskatoon being that far north, dusk shouldn't be ending at 8:20PM during the summer.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 30, 2018, 10:24:11 AM
PST
Saskatoon, SK: UTC-8 [6/21:0246/1932] [12/21:0713/1456]
San Francisco, CA: UTC-8 [6/21:0448/1935] [12/21:0722/1654]
Edmonton, AB: UTC-8 [6/21:0304/2007] [12/21:0748/1516]
Seattle, WA: UTC-8 [6/21:0412/2011] [12/21:0755/1621]

Saskatoon looks a little out of wack.  Currently in Saskatoon dawn begins at 03:56 and dusk ends at 22:20 during the summer solstice.  Under your proposal, dawn begins at 01:56 and dusk ends at 20:20.  Saskatoon being that far north, dusk shouldn't be ending at 8:20PM during the summer.

Effect of hard anchoring latest sunrise time. Shift of sunrise time is most noticeable in areas further north.  Ignoring civil dusk part and some other fine print - if you have X ours of daylight in winter and X hours of night in summer, and hard-anchor sunrise to a certain time T, shift of dawn time is (12-X) hours. X is 8.5-9 hours i in northern part of US, and 3-3.5 shift  is almost tolerable. further north it breaks down.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 30, 2018, 11:27:19 AM
Lawmakers in South Carolina are trying to get an advisory referendum on the November ballot to ask voters if they want to end spring forward and fall back and observe year-round daylight saving time. 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/south-carolina/articles/2018-04-25/voters-may-decide-future-of-daylight-saving-time-in-november

Seems like more and more state legislators are favoring the idea of year-round daylight savings time.  This is a positive development, as getting rid of daylight saving time would completely limit state choice on this issue.  Under the current system, all 50 states have the choice to either observe DST or stay on standard time year-round.  Given that choice, 2 states have decided to remain on standard time year round (Arizona and Hawaii).  So why should we force the 48 states that have decided to be on DST to go back to standard time?  Also, it would be a mistake to force Arizona and Hawaii to go to year-round DST.  Even though they are well in the minority in not observing DST, they should have the right to remain on standard time if they feel like it's the best thing for their state.  So if year-round DST passes and a state senator is up in arms about the kids getting on the bus in the dark, then that individual state can debate whether they want to stay on year-round DST or go to year-round standard time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on April 30, 2018, 12:16:57 PM
Lawmakers in South Carolina are trying to get an advisory referendum on the November ballot to ask voters if they want to end spring forward and fall back and observe year-round daylight saving time. 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/south-carolina/articles/2018-04-25/voters-may-decide-future-of-daylight-saving-time-in-november

Seems like more and more state legislators are favoring the idea of year-round daylight savings time.  This is a positive development, as getting rid of daylight saving time would completely limit state choice on this issue.  Under the current system, all 50 states have the choice to either observe DST or stay on standard time year-round.  Given that choice, 2 states have decided to remain on standard time year round (Arizona and Hawaii).  So why should we force the 48 states that have decided to be on DST to go back to standard time?  Also, it would be a mistake to force Arizona and Hawaii to go to year-round DST.  Even though they are well in the minority in not observing DST, they should have the right to remain on standard time if they feel like it's the best thing for their state.  So if year-round DST passes and a state senator is up in arms about the kids getting on the bus in the dark, then that individual state can debate whether they want to stay on year-round DST or go to year-round standard time.
Making it short: currently, federal agency has the power to determine time zone for the state (or part thereof). Look like states want some of that power in their hands.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on April 30, 2018, 03:26:22 PM
^The federal government simply sets the duration of DST under the Uniform Time Act of 1966.  The act was last amended in 2005 when Busch increased Daylight Saving Time by 4 weeks.  Ultimately, amending the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to make DST year-round wouldn't be giving more power to the states (they would still decide if they observe DST or not), but abolishing DST entirely would most certainly be taking power away from the states (states would be forced into standard time... like it or not).     
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1995hoo on April 30, 2018, 05:29:46 PM
Kind of hard to believe that prior to 1987, the clocks would have just gone ahead yesterday (last Sunday in April). I think the current US DST schedule makes the change too soon, but the end of April was quite late.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US 89 on April 30, 2018, 05:33:09 PM
The easiest way to observe permanent DST is to move one time zone east and not observe DST in that zone. Saskatchewan already does this; it is essentially in the Mountain zone with permanent DST. By being on CST year round, they are basically on permanent MDT. Depending on how you look at it, Arizona does the same thing. By observing MST year round, they are essentially on PDT.

Kind of hard to believe that prior to 1987, the clocks would have just gone ahead yesterday (last Sunday in April). I think the current US DST schedule makes the change too soon, but the end of April was quite late.

Agreed. IMO, DST should begin the first Sunday of April and end the second-to-last Sunday of October.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mrsman on April 30, 2018, 08:23:26 PM
PST
Saskatoon, SK: UTC-8 [6/21:0246/1932] [12/21:0713/1456]
San Francisco, CA: UTC-8 [6/21:0448/1935] [12/21:0722/1654]
Edmonton, AB: UTC-8 [6/21:0304/2007] [12/21:0748/1516]
Seattle, WA: UTC-8 [6/21:0412/2011] [12/21:0755/1621]

Saskatoon looks a little out of wack.  Currently in Saskatoon dawn begins at 03:56 and dusk ends at 22:20 during the summer solstice.  Under your proposal, dawn begins at 01:56 and dusk ends at 20:20.  Saskatoon being that far north, dusk shouldn't be ending at 8:20PM during the summer.

Effect of hard anchoring latest sunrise time. Shift of sunrise time is most noticeable in areas further north.  Ignoring civil dusk part and some other fine print - if you have X ours of daylight in winter and X hours of night in summer, and hard-anchor sunrise to a certain time T, shift of dawn time is (12-X) hours. X is 8.5-9 hours i in northern part of US, and 3-3.5 shift  is almost tolerable. further north it breaks down.

The point of the exercise is to pick one time constraint.  In my example, I forced sunrise on the winter solstice to always be between 7:00 and 7:59.  But the exercise can also be done with respect to sunset or high noon as well or by focusing on the effect at the summer solstice or the equinoxes.  Since most of the DST complaints tend to involve dark mornings, I figured the most important factor for people was being sure that school kids weren't in the dark so the sun has to rise before 8:00.  But other factors may take precedence.

IMO pick one time and stick with it.  School can always start later to avoid the dark mornings.

It's also interesting to see Miami:

Miami, FL: UTC-5 [6/21:0530/1915] [12/21:0703/1735]
if it went on permanent DST would look like:

Miami, FL: UTC-4 [6/21:0630/2015] [12/21:0803/1835] which actually does extend sunshine during the winter season till almost 7:00 PM.  The problem is that the western part of the state will have a very late sunrise duing the winter, close to 9:00 am.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 01, 2018, 11:41:12 AM
Assume an early riser is awake from 5AM-9PM and a late riser is from 8AM-midnight.  Under standard time during the winter solstice, a late riser in Boston experiences 434 minutes of darkness during their waking hours compared to just 352 minutes of darkness for the early riser.  Now if permanent DST was enacted, a late riser in Boston would only experience 374 minutes of darkness during their waking hours and the early riser would still experience the same 352 minutes of darkness.  Permanent DST would minimize the amount of darkness people receive during their waking hours in the winter.  As you can see, even with permanent DST, late risers in Boston miss out on 22 minutes of light vs. their earlier riser counterparts, but that’s a lot better than missing out on 82 minutes of light.  Obviously, the farther west you go, the later the sunrise gets which helps ensure that it’s still dark when a late riser awakens (which is a good thing, because there is so precious little sun in the winter that you don’t want to waste it sleeping!).  By the time you get to Syracuse, both late risers and early risers experience the same minutes of darkness during their waking hours during the winter. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 01, 2018, 02:00:20 PM
Another foreseeable issue is that some time zones (including our Eastern Time Zone) are wider than 1/24 of the earth. That is to say, the extremities cannot both have a sunrise between 7:00 and 7:59. I can see this being an issue with Indiana and Maine.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on May 01, 2018, 02:08:05 PM
Another foreseeable issue is that some time zones (including our Eastern Time Zone) are wider than 1/24 of the earth. That is to say, the extremities cannot both have a sunrise between 7:00 and 7:59. I can see this being an issue with Indiana and Maine.

Indiana can go to Central. It would split Kentucky in half, and hbelkins would still be in Eastern.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 01, 2018, 02:22:09 PM
Another foreseeable issue is that some time zones (including our Eastern Time Zone) are wider than 1/24 of the earth. That is to say, the extremities cannot both have a sunrise between 7:00 and 7:59. I can see this being an issue with Indiana and Maine.
More like an issue with people having to suck it up and stop bitching about dawn being 10 minutes later than they would love to.
One  hour granularity of clock settings allows only that much of tweaking. Complains about day being too short in winter may be well founded on exact data - but tweaking clock is not going to resolve it.
Just FYI: Hawaii have no such issues, neither does southern Mexico..
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 01, 2018, 02:29:46 PM
Assume an early riser is awake from 5AM-9PM and a late riser is from 8AM-midnight.  Under standard time during the winter solstice, a late riser in Boston experiences 434 minutes of darkness during their waking hours compared to just 352 minutes of darkness for the early riser.  Now if permanent DST was enacted, a late riser in Boston would only experience 374 minutes of darkness during their waking hours and the early riser would still experience the same 352 minutes of darkness.  Permanent DST would minimize the amount of darkness people receive during their waking hours in the winter.  As you can see, even with permanent DST, late risers in Boston miss out on 22 minutes of light vs. their earlier riser counterparts, but that’s a lot better than missing out on 82 minutes of light.  Obviously, the farther west you go, the later the sunrise gets which helps ensure that it’s still dark when a late riser awakens (which is a good thing, because there is so precious little sun in the winter that you don’t want to waste it sleeping!).  By the time you get to Syracuse, both late risers and early risers experience the same minutes of darkness during their waking hours during the winter. 
Clearly you've never had issues with waking up and getting yourself out of bed when it's dark outside.  Larks don't need the light in the morning because their body clocks are already oriented to get up early (and in tune with society).  Owls, on the other hand, need the sun to tell them it's time to get up.  I don't usually start feeling awake until a couple HOURS after sunrise.  Of course, it doesn't help that my apartment is situated backwards: my living room gets the morning sun, and my bedroom gets the evening sun, resulting in each side getting the sun when it is not needed and lacking it when it is.

The reverse is true for functioning in the evenings: Larks start falling asleep after sunset, but Owls can stay awake easily.

I honestly don't understand the obsession with daylight any more.  What difference does it make if it's light out when I'm sitting at my desk, watching the news and using my computer?  When I was in college and didn't have classes until 9-11, it made more sense.

I also don't find the semiannual clock changes to be a burden like many seem to.  My computer and phone adjust automatically.  My bedroom clock is as simple as flipping the DST switch.  My watch (which is really my bathroom clock now, since I haven't used it as a watch in years; it does come in handy for setting the other clocks, though), microwave, and car clocks are all trivially easy to set.  Stove is slightly less convenient, but still not hard.  The only one I really don't like to deal with is the bird clock, and that's more because it's analog (literally every other clock I own is digital) and keeping the bird sounds in sync with the hours is cumbersome.  Plus I'm waking up to a blaring alarm every weekday regardless of whether the time just changed or not, and it's easy enough to not lose an hour of sleep if you instead decide to be awake one hour less that weekend (I usually adjust to the time changes around 8 Saturday, though my clocks are usually changed between 2-5).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 02:34:38 PM
...microwave...(and)...Stove...

Because the Microwave is over the stove, I try my dammest to keep the two in sync.  It probably takes me 5 minutes total to get them the way I like it.

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 01, 2018, 02:47:05 PM
...microwave...(and)...Stove...

Because the Microwave is over the stove, I try my dammest to keep the two in sync.  It probably takes me 5 minutes total to get them the way I like it.
I have projection clock in a bedroom, which also have a frontside display. Those 2 clocks are completely independent, and they drift at different rates.
At least you can press buttons on both stove and microwave at the same time if your hands are long enough...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 01, 2018, 02:56:59 PM
...microwave...(and)...Stove...

Because the Microwave is over the stove, I try my dammest to keep the two in sync.  It probably takes me 5 minutes total to get them the way I like it.


I like to keep them all in sync, or as close to in sync as possible.  My first step of the time change is to re-set the seconds on my watch to the computer and correct any drift on the minutes while changing the hour.  Then I set everything else to the watch.  The clocks in the living room, stove, microwave, and car can all do that by hitting "OK" or the last button to change the hour/minute right as the minute changes.  The bird clock, meanwhile, requires that I take the battery out for a minute and finish setting it only on an even hour, and is prone to drift quicker than the others.  Alas, my bedroom clock can't be synced up.  Its seconds are relative to when it was first plugged in (or at least the last time the battery ran out when transporting it between home and college), and there's nothing I can do to change that.

The stove and microwave tend not to be able to drift to the degree as my other clocks can due to power outages.  I don't know why someone hasn't yet invented stoves or microwaves that don't lose their time when the power goes out.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 01, 2018, 03:29:23 PM


The stove and microwave tend not to be able to drift to the degree as my other clocks can due to power outages.  I don't know why someone hasn't yet invented stoves or microwaves that don't lose their time when the power goes out.
Because we need something to hate just to vent that feeling?
I specifically hate clock on my stove which keeps time during the power outage - but it does not advance while there is no power. If power goes out at 10.00 and comes back at 10.15, damn thing is 15 minutes late until I reset it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 03:33:41 PM
...I don't know why someone hasn't yet invented stoves or microwaves that don't lose their time when the power goes out.

Seriously.  2 AA batteries would fix that issue. 

My other 'mistake' when I bought my range and microwave.  I got different brands.  Didn't think of it at the time, but when I installed them one clock uses green numerals, one uses orange.  It was just 'off' I guess I could say.  Of course, now, I don't even notice it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on May 01, 2018, 03:52:12 PM
...microwave...(and)...Stove...

Because the Microwave is over the stove, I try my dammest to keep the two in sync.  It probably takes me 5 minutes total to get them the way I like it.

My microwave's clock is permanently off.  It functions only to time the cooking and as an extra timer.  Where it could display time of day, it is blank instead.  No more resetting it after power failures or for DST, no more OCD catastrophe because it's not exactly in synch with the wall clock.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 01, 2018, 04:51:47 PM
I put together a list of dawn/dusk times for the top 20 metro regions in America.  I wanted to consider the lighting effects that winter DST would have on early birds (wake at 05:00, go to bed at 21:00) and night owls (wake at 08:00, go to bed at midnight).  Running DST during the winter greatly minimizes the total minutes Awake in Darkness (AID) and the minutes Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.

(https://i.imgur.com/bNDzuPH.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/YiicpCs.png)

*The early bird in all 20 metro regions is never sleeping in light (SIL) regardless if it's running DST or Standard time.  OTOH, night owls are sleeping in light (SIL) in all 20 metro regions when running Standard time during the winter.

*Detroit would experience the latest dawn out of the top 20 metro regions if the nation observed DST during the winter.  The dawn would begin in Detroit at 8:26AM.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on May 01, 2018, 05:33:30 PM
Perhaps a bird clock should not be changed for DST.  I have a grandfather clock and also a table clock manufactured in the nineteenth century.  Both require weekly winding.  I no longer change them.  They are on standard time year round.  Back when I did change them, the more difficult operation was going back to standard time in the autumn.  They did not keep good time after that.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 01, 2018, 08:17:08 PM


The stove and microwave tend not to be able to drift to the degree as my other clocks can due to power outages.  I don't know why someone hasn't yet invented stoves or microwaves that don't lose their time when the power goes out.
Because we need something to hate just to vent that feeling?
I specifically hate clock on my stove which keeps time during the power outage - but it does not advance while there is no power. If power goes out at 10.00 and comes back at 10.15, damn thing is 15 minutes late until I reset it.
I don't get long-duration outages often.  Mostly it's just the ones that last for a second or two - long enough that I need to turn the computer on and set the clocks again, but not long enough for the living room clock (which has the same issue) to be noticeably off.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 01, 2018, 10:00:57 PM
The problem with the permanent DST theory is that many night owls (like myself) have to get up before 8AM regardless of whether it meshes with our preferences.

It's easy to stay up well past dusk. It's hard to get up well before dawn. As such, late winter sunrises are counterproductive. I'm going to stay up past sunset year-round, and that's not a problem - that's how I like it. Trying to align the sun with my preferred schedule, on the other hand, is a problem, because it would reinforce my owlish habits and make me late for work.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on May 02, 2018, 11:29:56 AM
Daylight really has no impact on when I wake up. There are really only two things that determine when I get up -- an alarm clock or my bladder.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 02, 2018, 01:10:29 PM
It's also worth noting that Lark/Owl preferences are based relative to the Sun, not the clock.  One's body clock doesn't care what number is currently displayed on some device; it resets based on sunrise.  Thus, moving the clock doesn't align the Sun closer to Owl-preferred times, because the Owl-preferred (clock) times will just shift if you do.  It does, however, move society to be more in line with Lark-preferred (solar) times.

The problem with the permanent DST theory is that many night owls (like myself) have to get up before 8AM regardless of whether it meshes with our preferences.

It's easy to stay up well past dusk. It's hard to get up well before dawn. As such, late winter sunrises are counterproductive. I'm going to stay up past sunset year-round, and that's not a problem - that's how I like it. Trying to align the sun with my preferred schedule, on the other hand, is a problem, because it would reinforce my owlish habits and make me late for work.
Definitely.  It would be nice if I had the luxury of sleeping in until 8!  That said, most office jobs favor Larks, not Owls.

Daylight really has no impact on when I wake up. There are really only two things that determine when I get up -- an alarm clock or my bladder.
I have days where I'm so tired that I instinctively hit the snooze button even without waking up.  At least that's what I assume happens, since I have no other explanation for why I wake up at one of the snooze increments with no memory of having dealt with the alarm earlier.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 02, 2018, 02:17:13 PM
I have days where I'm so tired that I instinctively hit the snooze button even without waking up.  At least that's what I assume happens, since I have no other explanation for why I wake up at one of the snooze increments with no memory of having dealt with the alarm earlier.

Hear hear - this morning was one of them for me. 

Worse...when I hit the off button with no memory of it. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 02, 2018, 02:30:54 PM
I put together a list of dawn/dusk times for the top 20 metro regions in America.  I wanted to consider the lighting effects that winter DST would have on early birds (wake at 05:00, go to bed at 21:00) and night owls (wake at 08:00, go to bed at midnight).  Running DST during the winter greatly minimizes the total minutes Awake in Darkness (AID) and the minutes Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.

If you keep the definition of the night owl the same (wake at 8:00, goes to bed at midnight), the early bird would have to wake up at 01:00 and go to sleep at 17:00 before standard time in the winter would minimize the total minutes Awake In Darkness (AID) and minutes Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to DST.  Conversely, if you kept the definition of the early bird the same (wake at 05:00, go to bed at 21:00), the night owl would have to wake up at 11:00 and go to bed at 03:00 before standard time in the winter would minimize the AID and SIL minutes.  The point is under reasonable waking hour definitions, year-round DST would do a much better job at maximizing the waking hours of sunlight American’s receive in the winter.

I did the same analysis for the Summer Solstice and you get much the same results.  DST drastically reduces the minutes American’s are Awake in Darkness (AID) or Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.

(https://i.imgur.com/82X4X2L.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/rTK7Ocw.png)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 02, 2018, 03:34:23 PM
*The early bird in all 20 metro regions is never sleeping in light (SIL) regardless if it's running DST or Standard time. 

I wanted to highlight the point at which an early bird would start to Sleep in Light (SIL) during the winter.  The early birds who wake up at 03:03 and go to bed at 19:03 would then start to be sleeping in light for 1 minute, since the dusk would end in Tampa at 19:04 running DST.  Only at that point does Standard Time in the winter minimize the cumulative SIL and AID numbers for the early birds.  But short of people who wake up before 3:03AM, Daylight Saving Time in the winter would only increase the amount of daylight night owls get during their waking hours while having no impact on the SIL and AID numbers of the early birds.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 02, 2018, 03:47:10 PM
DST drastically reduces the minutes American’s are Awake in Darkness (AID) or Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.
The problem isn't the raw AID or SIL figures, but when and what they are: morning or evening. AID in the morning is the night owl's worst enemy, whereas SIL in the morning is the night owl's best friend. Likewise SIL in the evening is a little problem for night owls, whereas AID in the evening is little problem for night owls.

A night owl won't wake up at 8am if they are awake in the dark at that point. Also, while a night owl might want to wake up at 8am (or later), they often can't and have to be up earlier, increasing their AID in the morning in winter.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 02, 2018, 04:32:37 PM
DST drastically reduces the minutes American’s are Awake in Darkness (AID) or Sleeping in Light (SIL) compared to standard time.
The problem isn't the raw AID or SIL figures, but when and what they are: morning or evening. AID in the morning is the night owl's worst enemy, whereas SIL in the morning is the night owl's best friend. Likewise SIL in the evening is a little problem for night owls, whereas AID in the evening is little problem for night owls.

A night owl won't wake up at 8am if they are awake in the dark at that point. Also, while a night owl might want to wake up at 8am (or later), they often can't and have to be up earlier, increasing their AID in the morning in winter.
On the other hand, evening AID in winter is almost a given - and not that big of a problem for anyone. Already awake, lights/TV/whatnot is on...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 02, 2018, 05:03:15 PM
On the other hand
Not particularly - it's an extension of what I say about night owls and AID in the evening - that AID in the evening isn't really a problem.

Incidentially, just over halfway between equinox and solstice (I know day length is decelerating), civil twilight ending at just after 9 meant it wasn't dark ~45 minutes ago. Surely that's late enough? There's 7 weeks of day length increasing still to come and it feels as if DST is more about stopping too-early dawns (currently sun up at 0530, with twilight extending before that). Nautical twilight has just now ended at about 10, and will return in 6 hours (Astronomical twilight still has an hour to go, and will return at 3am - however it's pretty meaningless as its dark anyway)

Currently, I'm waking up naturally around half 7 currently (if the weather isn't grey, then earlier) after about two hours SIL, whereas in winter getting up at 9 with only an hour SIL was a chore and I was far less refreshed. Bedtime is about the same late hour either way.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 02, 2018, 06:00:57 PM
It's also worth noting that Lark/Owl preferences are based relative to the Sun, not the clock.  One's body clock doesn't care what number is currently displayed on some device; it resets based on sunrise.  Thus, moving the clock doesn't align the Sun closer to Owl-preferred times, because the Owl-preferred (clock) times will just shift if you do.  It does, however, move society to be more in line with Lark-preferred (solar) times.

Yeah, you basically nailed the explanation of why moving the clock to favor owls is counterproductive.
Owls like sleeping in light and being awake in the dark. We don't want those time periods minimized. Adopting winter DST only makes things worse for the larks, while the supposed benefit to owls isn't really a benefit at all.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 02, 2018, 06:02:21 PM
There seems to be enough legislators who are seriously questioning the antiquated practice of changing our clocks twice a year, now the question becomes what time to stick with.  I think that answer is obvious.  Have you ever met someone from Boston say “damn it, I wish dawn started at 3:32AM during the summer, because dawn starting at 4:32AM is just too damn late!”.  Similarly, what golfer in Minneapolis is saying “damn it, I wish it was already pitch dark out at 8:40PM, because I hate being able to play this extra round of golf after dinner!”  I don’t hear anybody really complaining about DST during the summer.   None of the top 20 metro regions dawn/dusk times seem too out of wack. 

Now if we were on standard time year-round, dawn in LA would begin at 4:12AM and dusk would end at 7:36PM.  Imagine being the guy struggling through 2 hours of LA traffic after getting off their 9-5 job.  Dude finally gets home and has 36 minutes of daylight to enjoy.  Got outside chores to do after dinner?  Well I guess their weekend is shot. 

Now since daylight is so scarce in the winter and nobody will be happy regardless of what time is picked, shouldn't whatever time works best in the summer be chosen year round?  Obviously i believe most people would prefer DST time over standard time during the summer.  But it's important to note that individual states can opt out of DST and stay on standard-time.  That reason alone is why going to year-round DST makes so much more sense than abolishing DST completely (regardless if you think DST is actually better or not, because at least the individual states can decide for themselves and not have to be told what to do by the federal government).  No way in hell are states going to abolish DST. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 02, 2018, 06:04:19 PM
Currently, I'm waking up naturally around half 7 currently

For those unfamiliar with British time-telling, this means 7:30.  In Germanic or Slavic countries, such a phrase would mean 6:30, but the Brits do it the other way around.

For those unfamiliar with American time-telling, this would be worded "half past 7".
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on May 02, 2018, 06:05:32 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 02, 2018, 06:06:21 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

Amen!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US 89 on May 02, 2018, 06:53:22 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

Amen!

That's what Saskatchewan did (and also Iceland, I'm pretty sure), and it definitely makes more sense than trying to work out year-round DST.

The problem is that a lot of states in the US aren't necessarily in a good place to do this. Take Utah, for example. If Utah moved to year-round CST, in winter it would be one hour ahead of Colorado to the east (MST), but two hours ahead of Nevada to the west (PST).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 02, 2018, 08:09:27 PM
If Utah moved to year-round CST, in winter it would be one hour ahead of Colorado to the east (MST), but two hours ahead of Nevada to the west (PST).

I do concede your point that some places aren't well-suited to switching one time zone east; namely the western portions of any given time zone.
But Utah wouldn't suddenly, as an isolated incident, switch time zones. Considering the state's relative location, they certainly wouldn't leapfrog Colorado to adopt CST. It would be more likely they'd adopt PST year-round, as neighboring Arizona already does. Come to think of it, CST in Utah would create a random two-hour time change heading south! That would be an oddity indeed!

In any case, for the purposes of the discussion, we can only assume that if Utah switched, Nevada and Colorado and other neighboring states would switch as well.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 02, 2018, 09:09:03 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.
Amen!

I agree 100%.

But at the same time, calling it year-round DST more succinctly expresses to the general population what is actually happening: more evening daylight in the winter.  It's also far more likely people would approve and accept the change. If you told me New York State was switching to Atlantic Time, I'd just about erupt. DST is so engrained in our culture that I'd expect DST on top of Atlantic Time. In other words, I'd react as if it was a year-round overhaul. Call it year-round DST, however, and I'll know instantly that only winter will be impacted.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 02, 2018, 09:15:02 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

It requires an act of Congress or approval from the USDOT for a state to change time zones.  However, there is a provision in the Uniform Time Act of 1966 that allows a state to opt out of DST.  That’s why amending the Uniform Time Act to extend DST year-round is the easiest legislative solution to this problem.  The states would have the power to decide what time to observe, and it wouldn't be subject to approval from the federal government. 

Maine and Massachusetts have legislation essentially approving a move to the Atlantic time zone, but it hasn’t happened yet because it’s contingent on other Atlantic states to move with them (most notably New Hampshire).  The Atlantic States moving zones would just complicate things further, as now the continental United States would observe 5 different time zones during the winter (Atlantic, Eastern, Central, Mountain, Pacific) and essentially 4 different time zones during the summer (as the Atlantic states would no longer observe DST and basically tie back in with the eastern timezone states during the summer). 
 
This state might be the first in the U.S. to join this time zone. But why?
http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article181021281.html
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on May 02, 2018, 10:16:38 PM
I have days where I'm so tired that I instinctively hit the snooze button even without waking up.  At least that's what I assume happens, since I have no other explanation for why I wake up at one of the snooze increments with no memory of having dealt with the alarm earlier.
Hear hear - this morning was one of them for me. 

Worse...when I hit the off button with no memory of it.

That's why I keep my alarm clock outside of my arm's reach from bed. I have to physically get up to shut it off. ;-)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on May 02, 2018, 10:29:12 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.
Amen!

I agree 100%.

But at the same time, calling it year-round DST more succinctly expresses to the general population what is actually happening: more evening daylight in the winter.  It's also far more likely people would approve and accept the change. If you told me New York State was switching to Atlantic Time, I'd just about erupt. DST is so engrained in our culture that I'd expect DST on top of Atlantic Time. In other words, I'd react as if it was a year-round overhaul. Call it year-round DST, however, and I'll know instantly that only winter will be impacted.

It would officially become AST, which, when compared to EDT, is like calling a pancake a hotcake; it's the same thing.  However, AST is the legal, official term.  Don't know if all of NY state would switch to AST; if DST is eliminated altogether, I could see western NY (Buffalo and Rochester DMA's) staying on EST year round. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US 89 on May 03, 2018, 12:26:13 AM
If Utah moved to year-round CST, in winter it would be one hour ahead of Colorado to the east (MST), but two hours ahead of Nevada to the west (PST).

I do concede your point that some places aren't well-suited to switching one time zone east; namely the western portions of any given time zone.
But Utah wouldn't suddenly, as an isolated incident, switch time zones. Considering the state's relative location, they certainly wouldn't leapfrog Colorado to adopt CST. It would be more likely they'd adopt PST year-round, as neighboring Arizona already does. Come to think of it, CST in Utah would create a random two-hour time change heading south! That would be an oddity indeed!

Arizona is on MST year round, not PST. It just so happens that MST = PDT in the summer. So if UT adopted CST, there would be a permanent one-hour time change at the UT-AZ border, not 2 hours. I only brought up the CST thing because that was actually a real proposal by some state legislator.

There’s no way Utah would ever adopt PST. It’s either the current system or standard time year round (which would keep UT and AZ on the same time year round).

Also, I wish that time changes between AZ and UT/NM were signed. It’s equivalent to crossing a time zone west, but since they are both Mountain time there is no sign for the time change. I remember showing up an hour early for a tour of Glen Canyon Dam for precisely this reason.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on May 03, 2018, 04:27:32 AM
One's body clock doesn't care what number is currently displayed on some device; it resets based on sunrise.

Does it though? Check the time on this post. Nine years of working in a casino has me going to bed at 5am and getting up at 1pm. Any time I go on vacation it is hard to adjust to being on a 'normal' schedule, and by the last few days I find myself staying up to 5am anyway. This is not a natural sleep pattern by any means, and yet, by repetition, here it sits.

The Jargon File calls it phase (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/P/phase.html)—since computer programmers (especially academics) really have no need for face-to-face interaction with anyone (writing code is easier over the internet!) they end up with some fantastically messed-up schedules.

If daylight savings time addles you that badly, just get a second-shift job.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 03, 2018, 07:12:35 AM
Does it though?
Yes - this is a proven scientific fact that sunlight affects wake up times - not only do people on the western edges of timezones wake up later than people on the eastern edge, but people will wake up earlier in summer than in winter if given free-reign.
Quote
This is not a natural sleep pattern by any means, and yet, by repetition, here it sits.
True, but some people are more adaptable than others to that. I'd imagine that the first few weeks were problematic.

It also helps that your pattern is so far off normal. If it's just a little shift (say having to wake up at 6, when you want to wake up at 8), then its far harder as it is so extreme.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Eth on May 03, 2018, 08:23:04 AM
since computer programmers (especially academics) really have no need for face-to-face interaction with anyone (writing code is easier over the internet!) they end up with some fantastically messed-up schedules.

YMMV. Speaking as a software developer working on a team with no other members in the Southeast, I feel like my job was easier (certainly more enjoyable) back when I actually did have face-to-face interaction with my team. And thankfully I haven't been asked to start working midnight-to-9am to align myself with the other developers; I'd go find another job instead.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 03, 2018, 09:21:01 AM
Arizona is on MST year round, not PST.

Oops :D :pan:

Quote
There’s no way Utah would ever adopt PST. It’s either the current system or standard time year round (which would keep UT and AZ on the same time year round).

Considering a PST state (Nevada) is a lot closer than a CST state (Nebraska), the former is still more likely, even if neither are remotely plausible.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 03, 2018, 09:33:56 AM
Does it though?
Yes - this is a proven scientific fact that sunlight affects wake up times - not only do people on the western edges of timezones wake up later than people on the eastern edge, but people will wake up earlier in summer than in winter if given free-reign.

+1.
It is much easier to get up in the summer, and I find myself rousing with the sun by default, even if I go back to sleep afterwards.

Quote
Quote
This is not a natural sleep pattern by any means, and yet, by repetition, here it sits.
It also helps that your pattern is so far off normal. If it's just a little shift (say having to wake up at 6, when you want to wake up at 8), then its far harder

Yeah, I'd imagine being completely off from the average is actually much easier to maintain than a 4-5 or even 2-3 hour shift. I can envision myself successfully maintaining night shift, but I can't envision myself maintaining 5AM to 9PM.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 10:39:37 AM
California is pushing for year-round DST. 
Quote
Last year, the California Legislature passed a bipartisan resolution asking Congress to approve a third option for states — permanent daylight saving time. South Bay Congressman Ro Khanna is now spearheading that effort in Washington, D.C.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/05/daylight-saving-time-is-here-to-stay-in-california/

Florida is pushing for year-round DST.
Quote
Lawmakers in Florida are tired of the whole "fall back" and "spring forward" rigamarole. So they've approved a bill to keep Daylight Saving Time going throughout the year in their state.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/us/florida-year-round-daylight-saving-time-trnd/index.html

Maine is pushing to change to Atlantic Time (which would effectively be the same as Eastern time w/year-round DST).
Quote
LD 203 would exempt Maine from federal provisions observing Eastern daylight saving time for eight months of the year and move Maine to the Atlantic Standard Time Zone year-round. Practically speaking, that would put Maine an hour ahead of other eastern states, into the time zone shared by Puerto Rico and Canada’s maritime provinces, for part of the year.
http://bangordailynews.com/2017/04/27/politics/maine-house-supports-time-zone-switch-dumping-daylight-saving-time/

Massachusetts is pushing to change to Atlantic Time (which would effectively be the same as Eastern time w/year-round DST):
Quote
In their final report released this past week, a special state commission recommended that Massachusetts switch time zones “under certain circumstances,” effectively adopting daylight saving time all year round. The move — which would have the Bay State join Nova Scotia, Puerto Rico, and others in Atlantic Standard Time — would come with costs and benefits.
https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2017/11/05/new-england-atlantic-time-zone

South Carolina wants to put the issue to the voters:
Quote
South Carolina lawmakers say they want to hear from voters about whether to observe year-round daylight saving time.

The referendum would ask voters if they want to end spring forward and fall back and observe year-round daylight saving time. If the bill is approved, lawmakers would send a joint resolution to Congress requesting a change depending on what the voters decide in November.
https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/future-of-daylight-saving-time-may-go-to-south-carolina/article_334bcac8-48a2-11e8-b19c-5374dd6266ac.html

Louisiana lawmakers consider ending DST; one option being going to year-round DST:
Quote
Rep. Mark Wright of Covington presented a proposal to the House Commerce Committee Tuesday that would create a task force to study the impacts of Daylight Saving Time. That proposal was passed favorably to the House floor. Wright and the proposal's author, Rep. Julie Stokes, feel the change in hours is unhealthy and can even lead to injury.

Wright says there are two options for how the adjustment would work. Louisiana would either fall back an hour and stay on that time year-round. This is what Arizona and Hawaii do. Or, the state could stay on Daylight Saving Time (the current time) year-round. Wright says the latter option may be better because Louisianans actually spend most of the year on that time.
http://www.wafb.com/story/38086267/la-lawmakers-consider-getting-rid-of-daylight-saving-time

Arizona already observes year-round standard time. 

Hawaii already observes year-round standard time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: J N Winkler on May 03, 2018, 11:11:39 AM
I just want to point out that it is actually possible to get up on time in the morning (whatever "on time" means in the context of your own schedule) without an alarm clock.  The key is to determine how many hours of sleep you need in order to wake up fully rested (usually eight), and then go to bed early enough that you actually get this much sleep.  I personally haven't used an alarm clock in 20 years.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on May 03, 2018, 11:35:39 AM
California is pushing for year-round DST. 
Quote
Last year, the California Legislature passed a bipartisan resolution asking Congress to approve a third option for states — permanent daylight saving time. South Bay Congressman Ro Khanna is now spearheading that effort in Washington, D.C.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/05/daylight-saving-time-is-here-to-stay-in-california/

Florida is pushing for year-round DST.
Quote
Lawmakers in Florida are tired of the whole "fall back" and "spring forward" rigamarole. So they've approved a bill to keep Daylight Saving Time going throughout the year in their state.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/us/florida-year-round-daylight-saving-time-trnd/index.html

Maine is pushing to change to Atlantic Time (which would effectively be the same as Eastern time w/year-round DST).
Quote
LD 203 would exempt Maine from federal provisions observing Eastern daylight saving time for eight months of the year and move Maine to the Atlantic Standard Time Zone year-round. Practically speaking, that would put Maine an hour ahead of other eastern states, into the time zone shared by Puerto Rico and Canada’s maritime provinces, for part of the year.
http://bangordailynews.com/2017/04/27/politics/maine-house-supports-time-zone-switch-dumping-daylight-saving-time/

Massachusetts is pushing to change to Atlantic Time (which would effectively be the same as Eastern time w/year-round DST):
Quote
In their final report released this past week, a special state commission recommended that Massachusetts switch time zones “under certain circumstances,” effectively adopting daylight saving time all year round. The move — which would have the Bay State join Nova Scotia, Puerto Rico, and others in Atlantic Standard Time — would come with costs and benefits.
https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2017/11/05/new-england-atlantic-time-zone

South Carolina wants to put the issue to the voters:
Quote
South Carolina lawmakers say they want to hear from voters about whether to observe year-round daylight saving time.

The referendum would ask voters if they want to end spring forward and fall back and observe year-round daylight saving time. If the bill is approved, lawmakers would send a joint resolution to Congress requesting a change depending on what the voters decide in November.
https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/future-of-daylight-saving-time-may-go-to-south-carolina/article_334bcac8-48a2-11e8-b19c-5374dd6266ac.html

Louisiana lawmakers consider ending DST; one option being going to year-round DST:
Quote
Rep. Mark Wright of Covington presented a proposal to the House Commerce Committee Tuesday that would create a task force to study the impacts of Daylight Saving Time. That proposal was passed favorably to the House floor. Wright and the proposal's author, Rep. Julie Stokes, feel the change in hours is unhealthy and can even lead to injury.

Wright says there are two options for how the adjustment would work. Louisiana would either fall back an hour and stay on that time year-round. This is what Arizona and Hawaii do. Or, the state could stay on Daylight Saving Time (the current time) year-round. Wright says the latter option may be better because Louisianans actually spend most of the year on that time.
http://www.wafb.com/story/38086267/la-lawmakers-consider-getting-rid-of-daylight-saving-time

Arizona already observes year-round standard time. 

Hawaii already observes year-round standard time.

What's complicated about this, as has already been pointed out, is that states can choose whether or not to observe DST, but the USDOT determines which time zone any county or state is in, and Congress decides the time frame of DST for those who choose to observe it.  States can't actually choose to observe year-round DST, they would have to have the USDOT agree to move them east one time zone and then decide not to observe DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on May 03, 2018, 11:38:10 AM
Add Connecticut to the list

HARTFORD, CT (WFSB)-
One state representative is looking into whether or not Connecticut should end daylight savings time.
Rep. Kurt Vail (R-52) gave Eyewitness News an inside look at his proposed legislation.
"A constituent came to me in my district and said, ‘what can you do about daylight saving time so that we have more light in the afternoon as opposed to the morning in the winter hours,’” Vail said.
Vail proposed a bill this legislative session that would do away with the bi-annual time change altogether and have it be daylight saving time all year long in Connecticut
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 03, 2018, 12:01:08 PM
I personally haven't used an alarm clock in 20 years.
You might not have, but this isn't true for everyone.

I've tried your method, it doesn't work for me - not least as going to bed isn't the same as falling asleep. I've tried many things to get it to make sleep and bed mean the same thing, but to little avail - if I go to bed too early, it just means I'm less tired at my body clock's desired sleep time and thus continue to struggle - the two best ways for me to be awake at 3am is to try and stay awake until 3, or to go to bed at 9 and try to go to sleep early!

The problem of late risers is biology, not some moral failing to be fixed by different behaviour.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 12:02:21 PM
States can't actually choose to observe year-round DST, they would have to have the USDOT agree to move them east one time zone and then decide not to observe DST.

Very true.  The Sunshine Protection Act passed in Florida is meaningless unless US Congress amends the Uniform Time Act to make DST year-round.  But you have some of the biggest most powerful states (California and Florida) publicly supporting year-round DST in their legislators.  That is what can push Congress to act.  In addition, the Atlantic states are desperately looking for more evening sunlight in the winter as evidenced by the fact they keep talking about switching to the Atlantic time zone. The Atlantic states would instantly favor year-round DST if enacted by Congress, and that whole talk of them changing time zones would end.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 03, 2018, 12:03:32 PM
Add Connecticut to the list

HARTFORD, CT (WFSB)-
One state representative is looking into whether or not Connecticut should end daylight savings time.
Rep. Kurt Vail (R-52) gave Eyewitness News an inside look at his proposed legislation.
"A constituent came to me in my district and said, ‘what can you do about daylight saving time so that we have more light in the afternoon as opposed to the morning in the winter hours,’” Vail said.
Vail proposed a bill this legislative session that would do away with the bi-annual time change altogether and have it be daylight saving time all year long in Connecticut


Really?  ONE person came to him about daylight and he wants to change the rules for everyone?

Does that mean one constituent can go to him requesting the speed limit be 125 mph, and he'll write up legislation for that too?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on May 03, 2018, 12:18:33 PM
States can't actually choose to observe year-round DST, they would have to have the USDOT agree to move them east one time zone and then decide not to observe DST.

Very true.  The Sunshine Protection Act passed in Florida is meaningless unless US Congress amends the Uniform Time Act to make DST year-round.  But you have some of the biggest most powerful states (California and Florida) publicly supporting year-round DST in their legislators.  That is what can push Congress to act.  In addition, the Atlantic states are desperately looking for more evening sunlight in the winter as evidenced by the fact they keep talking about switching to the Atlantic time zone. The Atlantic states would instantly favor year-round DST if enacted by Congress, and that whole talk of them changing time zones would end.

I can see New England changing to Atlantic. I don't understand Florida changing, though; Florida is in the western part of the time zone.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 03, 2018, 12:20:15 PM
What's complicated about this, as has already been pointed out, is that states can choose whether or not to observe DST, but the USDOT determines which time zone any county or state is in, and Congress decides the time frame of DST for those who choose to observe it.  States can't actually choose to observe year-round DST, they would have to have the USDOT agree to move them east one time zone and then decide not to observe DST.
As discussed above, looks like year-long DST is actually a legal backdoor to allow states moving into a different timezone on their own and without major overhaul of federal legislation on the subject.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 03, 2018, 12:23:26 PM
I can see New England changing to Atlantic. I don't understand Florida changing, though; Florida is in the western part of the time zone.
Florida is quite far south, probably in  the area where benefits of DST are diminishing. What they are actually up to is shifting their nominal workday with respect to solar day, and that makes sense from my perspective - midday for most people is fairly past 11.59AM.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 12:27:06 PM
I can see New England changing to Atlantic. I don't understand Florida changing, though; Florida is in the western part of the time zone.

Florida doesn’t want to change time zones, they just want to observe year-round DST.  There is a slight distinction.  The Atlantic states changing time zones vs. observing year-round DST is just semantics…. it would accomplishes the same dawn/dusk times for those states.  But the problem is if the Atlantic states switch time zones and the Uniform Time Act isn’t amended to make DST year-round, then we have a situation where the continental United States would be observing 5 time-zones during the winter and only 4 time-zones during the summer.  That just adds extra confusion, and most American’s would STILL have to change their clocks (short of people living in the Atlantic states, Arizona, and Hawaii).  The Atlantic states switching time zones without Congress amending the Uniform Time Act would be a worst-case scenario for Americans. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 03, 2018, 12:40:54 PM
I just want to point out that it is actually possible to get up on time in the morning without an alarm clock. The key is to determine how many hours of sleep you need in order to wake up fully rested (usually eight), and then go to bed early enough that you actually get this much sleep.

If your schedule (and planning) is such that you are regularly able to get 8 hours sleep, kudos to you. I use make do with 6 1/2 to 7, depending on the night.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on May 03, 2018, 12:44:50 PM
I just want to point out that it is actually possible to get up on time in the morning (whatever "on time" means in the context of your own schedule) without an alarm clock.  The key is to determine how many hours of sleep you need in order to wake up fully rested (usually eight), and then go to bed early enough that you actually get this much sleep.  I personally haven't used an alarm clock in 20 years.

To fall asleep, you have to be tired. If your schedule dictates "early to bed, early to rise" on a consistent basis, I could see why you might not need an alarm clock. But for others who work odd shifts, or fly a lot, it can be difficult to simply fall asleep exactly X-hours before they need to wake up. In my last job, I sometimes had to wake up at 0430. This would dictate being asleep by 2030 the night before. This can be very difficult if I worked a night shift the day before, or maybe flew in from out of town and didn't land until late the night before.

Point being that alarms have their place, unless you have total control over your schedule.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 03, 2018, 12:50:57 PM
I can see New England changing to Atlantic. I don't understand Florida changing, though; Florida is in the western part of the time zone.

Florida doesn’t want to change time zones, they just want to observe year-round DST.  There is a slight distinction.  The Atlantic states changing time zones vs. observing year-round DST is just semantics…. it would accomplishes the same dawn/dusk times for those states.  But the problem is if the Atlantic states switch time zones and the Uniform Time Act isn’t amended to make DST year-round, then we have a situation where the continental United States would be observing 5 time-zones during the winter and only 4 time-zones during the summer.  That just adds extra confusion, and most American’s would STILL have to change their clocks (short of people living in the Atlantic states, Arizona, and Hawaii).  The Atlantic states switching time zones without Congress amending the Uniform Time Act would be a worst-case scenario for Americans. 

What kind of amendment to Uniform Time Act you would see? There are already 8 time zones spelled out in that law, including what is effectively AST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 01:30:21 PM
^Marco Rubio already introduced the Sunshine Protection Act of 2018 to Congress on March 12, 2018.  The bill would repeal the temporary period for daylight saving time found in Section 3 of the Uniform Time Act of 1966.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/115/s2537/text/is
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 01:58:19 PM
Here's a list of 11 states and my rational to why year-round DST would be beneficial to them.  Keep in mind that state legislators in many of these states have already shown support for year-round DST. 

Increases in winter tourism dollars:
Florida
California
South Carolina

Later afternoon sun during the winter:
Connecticut
Rhode Island
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Vermont
Maine

Be in SYNC with the rest of the country
Arizona
Hawaii

Do you agree with this list?  Are there any other states that would benefit from year-round DST?  On the flip side, what states would most negatively be impacted by year-round DST?  I would love to hear everyone's thoughts.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 03, 2018, 02:11:21 PM
Here's a list of 11 states and my rational to why year-round DST would be beneficial to them.
[...]
Be in SYNC with the rest of the country
Arizona
Hawaii
Can you decipher that?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on May 03, 2018, 02:18:39 PM
^Marco Rubio already introduced the Sunshine Protection Act of 2018 to Congress on March 12, 2018.  The bill would repeal the temporary period for daylight saving time found in Section 3 of the Uniform Time Act of 1966.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/115/s2537/text/is

Except that year-round DST would be awful for the northern tier of states and also for states that are at the far western edges of their time zone.  It would push winter sunrises obscenely late in the morning.

The better solution is for areas that want year-round DST to get the DOT to move them east one time zone and then stop observing DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 03, 2018, 02:25:15 PM
Oddly enough, I think it's the northern states that would be most negatively impacted by year-round DST, because we have enough variation in daylight where winter mornings are unacceptably dark on daylight time but summer sunrise is very early with standard time.  Quite frankly, I don't understand why there's suddenly this big push to end changing the clocks.  Did this somehow get harder in recent years?  I don't see how.  I'd hardly call it obsolete, either; while the original energy-saving argument no longer applies, I'd assert that the other benefits the clock changes bring with respect to daylight optimization are worth it.  Plus the idea of it being light out past 5:30 (I consider civil twilight to still be light out) in winter is just plain wrong, and quite frankly, in the northern areas where you're inside all winter unless you like to ski, I don't really see the point.

As I've mentioned, permanent DST mainly benefits morning Larks, and quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of Larks bending the world to suit their whims.  It's bad for my physical and mental health.  I was flirting with the idea of someday changing my hours at work to be 8-4 instead of 8:30-4:30 if I can ever get myself in and out of bed on time consistently (to avoid traffic congestion that gets more annoying every single year), but that won't be possible with year-round DST.  In fact, I'd need to change my hours to 9-5 and have a hellish commute in summer (switching between the two by season isn't an option as that would likely be interpreted as flex time, which is strictly verboten for NYSDOT employees).  State government is already Lark-oriented enough and this would just make that worse.  I'm already having a hard time imagining how I'll keep up this schedule for the next 36 years as it is.  Not to mention the effects on scraping ice, which is hard enough.  Ice scrapers are just plain not effective if the ice is stuck on hard enough.  I've had days where it takes me half an hour or more (though 10 minutes is more common).  Ice scrapers also tend to leave streaks of ice behind unless the sun has mostly melted it anyways.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 03, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
Not to mention the effects on scraping ice, which is hard enough.  Ice scrapers are just plain not effective if the ice is stuck on hard enough.  I've had days where it takes me half an hour or more (though 10 minutes is more common).  Ice scrapers also tend to leave streaks of ice behind unless the sun has mostly melted it anyways.
What I do is spraying some tap water on windows. Cold tap water to avoid stress, and half a gallon to a gallon is enough to loosen even worst buildup.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 02:53:30 PM
The better solution is for areas that want year-round DST to get the DOT to move them east one time zone and then stop observing DST.

It just doesn't seem practical for 11 states to observe standard time (ie. residents never change their clocks) while the other 39 states observe daylight saving time (ie. residents change their clocks two times a year).  Not only would visitors have to know what time zone a state is in, they would have to know if the state observes DST or not.  It’s one thing with Arizona and Hawaii being on standard time year-round, but it’s just getting too complicated if 9 other states throughout different parts of the country join them.

Even if a state does get approval to change time-zones, what happens if the state doesn't like the change and wants to change back?  They risk the USDOT denying their request to change back, and could be stuck in a time zone they don’t want to be in.  Why would a state want to leave that decision up to the federal government?  It will be hung up in committee for years.  Think I’m kidding?  There is a Wikipedia page dedicated to Indiana time.  It took USDOT 2 years to respond to Governor Branigin’s petition to place all of Indiana back in the Central Time Zone.  Once you get the federal government involved in anything, it’s going to turn into a convoluted mess.

Quote
Having the state split in two time zones was inconvenient, however, so Governor Roger D. Branigin petitioned the USDOT to place all of Indiana back in the Central Time Zone a year later.

Over the next two years, the USDOT conducted several hearings in response to Governor Branigan's petition. Citizens of northwest and southwest Indiana appeared to favor the Central Time Zone with observance of DST, while those from other areas of the state favored the Eastern Time Zone with no observance of DST. The USDOT chose to divide Indiana between the Central Time Zone and the Eastern Time Zone. Six counties near Chicago (Lake, Porter, LaPorte, Jasper, Newton, and Starke) and six counties near Evansville (Posey, Vanderburgh, Warrick, Spencer, Gibson, and Pike) were placed in the Central Time Zone with observance of DST. The remainder of the state was placed in the Eastern Time Zone; the state was given special dispensation to exempt parts of itself from DST.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 03:28:23 PM
I'd hardly call it obsolete, either; while the original energy-saving argument no longer applies, I'd assert that the other benefits the clock changes bring with respect to daylight optimization are worth it.  Plus the idea of it being light out past 5:30 (I consider civil twilight to still be light out) in winter is just plain wrong.

Can you explain how standard time in the winter optimizes daylight?  Standard time is clearly not optimal if daylight optimization is based on minimizing the minutes American’s are ‘sleeping in light’ during the winter.  Common sense dictates that if there is precious little sunlight during the winter and a lack of sunlight makes people depressed, then sleeping through daylight would not help alleviate their winter depression.   And for many American’s people get home from work and it’s already pitch dark out.  How does that not sound depressing to you?  It’s not surprising that people in Maine wants to move to Atlantic time considering the sun sets there before 4PM during the winter.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: cabiness42 on May 03, 2018, 03:39:45 PM
The better solution is for areas that want year-round DST to get the DOT to move them east one time zone and then stop observing DST.

It just doesn't seem practical for 11 states to observe standard time (ie. residents never change their clocks) while the other 39 states observe daylight saving time (ie. residents change their clocks two times a year).  Not only would visitors have to know what time zone a state is in, they would have to know if the state observes DST or not.  It’s one thing with Arizona and Hawaii being on standard time year-round, but it’s just getting too complicated if 9 other states throughout different parts of the country join them.

Even if a state does get approval to change time-zones, what happens if the state doesn't like the change and wants to change back?  They risk the USDOT denying their request to change back, and could be stuck in a time zone they don’t want to be in.  Why would a state want to leave that decision up to the federal government?  It will be hung up in committee for years.  Think I’m kidding?  There is a Wikipedia page dedicated to Indiana time.  It took USDOT 2 years to respond to Governor Branigin’s petition to place all of Indiana back in the Central Time Zone.  Once you get the federal government involved in anything, it’s going to turn into a convoluted mess.

Quote
Having the state split in two time zones was inconvenient, however, so Governor Roger D. Branigin petitioned the USDOT to place all of Indiana back in the Central Time Zone a year later.

Over the next two years, the USDOT conducted several hearings in response to Governor Branigan's petition. Citizens of northwest and southwest Indiana appeared to favor the Central Time Zone with observance of DST, while those from other areas of the state favored the Eastern Time Zone with no observance of DST. The USDOT chose to divide Indiana between the Central Time Zone and the Eastern Time Zone. Six counties near Chicago (Lake, Porter, LaPorte, Jasper, Newton, and Starke) and six counties near Evansville (Posey, Vanderburgh, Warrick, Spencer, Gibson, and Pike) were placed in the Central Time Zone with observance of DST. The remainder of the state was placed in the Eastern Time Zone; the state was given special dispensation to exempt parts of itself from DST.


So there are two competing priorities, each of which has merits.  The first is that the fewer variances we have from the current norm of DST observance, the easier it is for everybody to understand what time it is everywhere else.  The second is the physical reality that for places that are farther south and/or east in any given time zone, more (or total) DST makes sense and for places that are farther north and/or west in any given time zone, less (or none) DST makes sense.  While both are in the Central Time Zone, more DST makes a lot of sense for Pensacola but is a horrible idea for Bismarck.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 03, 2018, 03:53:44 PM
Can you explain how standard time in the winter optimizes daylight?  Standard time is clearly not optimal if daylight optimization is based on minimizing the minutes American’s are ‘sleeping in light’ during the winter.
Why do people have to be awake in daylight and asleep when dark? We didn't even do that when we didn't have cheap artificial light!
Quote
Common sense dictates that if there is precious little sunlight during the winter and a lack of sunlight makes people depressed, then sleeping through daylight would not help alleviate their winter depression.
Which makes the idiotic anti-science assumption that we can't use sunlight when asleep. That might be 'common', but it's not 'sense' - rather it's 'nonsense'.

SAD is often alleviated by having sun-imitating lamps in the morning as the lack of morning sleeping through daylight in winter is a cause of SAD!

Optimal daylight is something like dawn around 6am and sunset about 8pm - this gives morning sun to allow people to wake up properly, and evening sun to do outdoor activities after work. There isn't enough sun in winter for this, so we sacrifice the economy-boosting evening activities for the health and sanity of the populous by turning the clocks back to Standard Time. In summer there's plenty of sun (I'm watching the streetlights light up at 10 to 9, and they will go off at about 5:15 tomorrow morning) and so we can shift an hour from the morning and put it on the evening - not because morning sun isn't important (it is), but that sun after 6pm is more useful than sun before 6am - just as sun before 7am is more useful than sun after 7pm.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 04:17:43 PM
Optimal daylight is something like dawn around 6am and sunset about 8pm - this gives morning sun to allow people to wake up properly, and evening sun to do outdoor activities after work. There isn't enough sun in winter for this, so we sacrifice the economy-boosting evening activities for the health and sanity of the populous by turning the clocks back to Standard Time.

During the winter, dawn begins in Bangor, Maine at 6:35AM and dusk ends at 4:30PM.  If what you say is true - that the optimum dawn is around 6AM and that we are willing to sacrifice evening outdoor activities during the winter so that people can wake up properly - then why has Maine's legislator essentially approve a move to Atlantic time?  The only reason it hasn't changed time zones yet is because the legislation is contingent on other Atlantic states joining them in the move.  I just think there is a larger contingency of people who prefer later sunsets during the winter than you are acknowledging (the people in Maine and Massachusetts being a prime example).   
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on May 03, 2018, 04:45:50 PM
Arizona already observes year-round standard time.

And due to that, should Big Rig Steve drive through that state while DST is in force elsewhere (like now), I'd state my forum time is "Pacific" instead of "Mountain" which AZ uses year-round. Steve hasn't moved from Central for over a week now, though.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 04:47:50 PM
The second is the physical reality that for places that are farther south and/or east in any given time zone, more (or total) DST makes sense and for places that are farther north and/or west in any given time zone, less (or none) DST makes sense.  While both are in the Central Time Zone, more DST makes a lot of sense for Pensacola but is a horrible idea for Bismarck.

I love diving into specific examples like this.  Currently during the winter, dawn in Pensacola begins at 6:15AM and dusk ends at 5:19PM.  With year-round DST, dawn would begin at 7:15AM and dusk would end at 6:19PM.  I don’t think many people in Pensacola would complain about an extra hour of sunlight during the winter evenings, especially considering Pensacola relies heavily on tourist dollars in the winter.  And dawn beginning at 7:15AM really doesn’t sound excessively late. 

Currently dawn in Bismarck during the winter begins at 7:49AM and dusk ends at 5:32PM.  With year-round DST, dawn would begin at 8:49AM and dusk would end at 6:32PM.  If given the option to run year-round standard time or year-round DST, I think North Dakota may decide to run year-round standard time.  But we leave it in the state’s hands to decide what is best for it.  Honestly nobody is complaining about the dawn/dusk times in Bismarck during the summer.  During DST dawn begins at 5:09AM and dusk ends at 10:20PM.  Would people of Bismarck really care that much if they went to standard time in the summer and dawn began at 4:09AM and dusk ended at 9:20PM in the summer?   That's still plenty of evening sunshine.  See under the current system states only decide whether DST makes sense for them during the summer.  If they also now must consider how year-round DST would affect the dawn/dusk times during the winter, they may choose to get rid of DST altogether and just stick with standard time year-round.  It would sort itself out.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on May 03, 2018, 05:46:03 PM
If you're going to change the Northeast to AST/permanent DST/UTC-4, it would make sense for all of the major metro areas to join in on it.  If you draw a hard line at the CT/NY border, you would have a major cf for commuters taking Metro-North and/or commuting to and from NYC. You'd have to change time zones going to and from work.  Leave at 8 AM in CT, get to work at 8 AM in NY.  Then on the way home, leave work at 5 in NY, get home to CT and it's already 7:00.  And it would be hard for those who travel between Boston/New York/Philly/DC.  The time zone line should pass in an area west of these areas; essentially along or just west of I-81, then curving around through VA south of the DC area and meeting the VA/NC border just west of the Richmond area and following it to the coast. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 03, 2018, 05:54:18 PM
If what you say is true - that the optimum dawn is around 6AM and that we are willing to sacrifice evening outdoor activities during the winter so that people can wake up properly - then why has Maine's legislator essentially approve a move to Atlantic time?
The House's 'only if New Hampshire and Mass do it' clause is designed to give it the impression of wanting to do it, while pushing the actual decision to places further west (and thus more reluctant).

The Senate's amendment about a referendum is a handy buck pass too 'well you the people voted for it, so you can't blame us for you not knowing that there is something more depressing than 4pm sunsets: 8am sunrises!' if they vote in favour of the bill and by some disaster the obstacles others have put up have been overcome and Maine moves to AST. That the two legislatures did different wrecking amendments gives another obstacle of their own making to stop them having to actually go through with it, while still looking as if they are on the case wrt the problem of dark evenings in winter.

So while their collective wisdom is pandering to idiots who think a few minutes of light after work is going to mean they get to do all sorts of outdoor activities after work in winter (and those who, like some of the reps voting in favour seem to think from the press clippings I've gleaned*, believe this will increasing the length of daylight experienced) in order to get votes, they won't have to deal with voters turning on them for changing the clocks as it won't happen.

Add in that the legislatures passed it knowing full well that Governor Page views it as "insane", that its supporters need a "therapy session" and that he will certainly veto the bill, with there not being enough support for an override. It's very clear that any vote in favour of the bill was done in the knowledge that they would not be held responsible for any of the negative effects as it would not be enacted (even before we get to the Federal level) - it's all politics and not policy.

*eg bill co-sponsor Kathleen Dillingham "It also is to address health benefits that an extra hour of usable daylight can provide." - how is twilight from 6:30-7:30am not usable if you are finishing work early enough that twilight from 4:30-5:30 is? It's again this bollocks that you can't use sun before work, and especially not when asleep despite the science saying otherwise.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 07:32:01 PM
Add in that the legislatures passed it knowing full well that Governor Page views it as "insane", that its supporters need a "therapy session" and that he will certainly veto the bill, with there not being enough support for an override. It's very clear that any vote in favour of the bill was done in the knowledge that they would not be held responsible for any of the negative effects as it would not be enacted (even before we get to the Federal level) - it's all politics and not policy.

What about the Florida legislator passing the Sunshine Protection Act?  Governor Rick Scott already signed it on March 9, 2018 and the issue is now going to the US Congress.  I guess if the Florida legislator felt like Rick Scott would veto the bill, they were mistaken.  You really don't think the US Congress would amend the Uniform Time Act again?  They just amended it in 2005 under Bush, so I think anything is possible.   
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 03, 2018, 08:24:13 PM
What english si said.  I suspect most supporters of year-round DST haven't wholly thought through the implications of the change and, given the way many Americans are, I wouldn't be surprised if some people really did think that the amount of daylight would get longer simply because sunset would be later!

It doesn't help that America tends to value economic activity above all else, so if there's even a tiny chance that people will be spending more money due to it, legislatures will be for it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 03, 2018, 08:31:49 PM
It doesn't help that America tends to value economic activity above all else, so if there's even a tiny chance that people will be spending more money due to it, legislatures will be for it.
This Merica!

I wouldn't be surprised if some people really did think that the amount of daylight would get longer simply because sunset would be later!
It's too confusing.


Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mrsman on May 04, 2018, 12:05:24 AM
California is pushing for year-round DST. 
Quote
Last year, the California Legislature passed a bipartisan resolution asking Congress to approve a third option for states — permanent daylight saving time. South Bay Congressman Ro Khanna is now spearheading that effort in Washington, D.C.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/05/daylight-saving-time-is-here-to-stay-in-california/

Florida is pushing for year-round DST.
Quote
Lawmakers in Florida are tired of the whole "fall back" and "spring forward" rigamarole. So they've approved a bill to keep Daylight Saving Time going throughout the year in their state.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/us/florida-year-round-daylight-saving-time-trnd/index.html

Maine is pushing to change to Atlantic Time (which would effectively be the same as Eastern time w/year-round DST).
Quote
LD 203 would exempt Maine from federal provisions observing Eastern daylight saving time for eight months of the year and move Maine to the Atlantic Standard Time Zone year-round. Practically speaking, that would put Maine an hour ahead of other eastern states, into the time zone shared by Puerto Rico and Canada’s maritime provinces, for part of the year.
http://bangordailynews.com/2017/04/27/politics/maine-house-supports-time-zone-switch-dumping-daylight-saving-time/

Massachusetts is pushing to change to Atlantic Time (which would effectively be the same as Eastern time w/year-round DST):
Quote
In their final report released this past week, a special state commission recommended that Massachusetts switch time zones “under certain circumstances,” effectively adopting daylight saving time all year round. The move — which would have the Bay State join Nova Scotia, Puerto Rico, and others in Atlantic Standard Time — would come with costs and benefits.
https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2017/11/05/new-england-atlantic-time-zone

South Carolina wants to put the issue to the voters:
Quote
South Carolina lawmakers say they want to hear from voters about whether to observe year-round daylight saving time.

The referendum would ask voters if they want to end spring forward and fall back and observe year-round daylight saving time. If the bill is approved, lawmakers would send a joint resolution to Congress requesting a change depending on what the voters decide in November.
https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/future-of-daylight-saving-time-may-go-to-south-carolina/article_334bcac8-48a2-11e8-b19c-5374dd6266ac.html

Louisiana lawmakers consider ending DST; one option being going to year-round DST:
Quote
Rep. Mark Wright of Covington presented a proposal to the House Commerce Committee Tuesday that would create a task force to study the impacts of Daylight Saving Time. That proposal was passed favorably to the House floor. Wright and the proposal's author, Rep. Julie Stokes, feel the change in hours is unhealthy and can even lead to injury.

Wright says there are two options for how the adjustment would work. Louisiana would either fall back an hour and stay on that time year-round. This is what Arizona and Hawaii do. Or, the state could stay on Daylight Saving Time (the current time) year-round. Wright says the latter option may be better because Louisianans actually spend most of the year on that time.
http://www.wafb.com/story/38086267/la-lawmakers-consider-getting-rid-of-daylight-saving-time

Arizona already observes year-round standard time. 

Hawaii already observes year-round standard time.

What's complicated about this, as has already been pointed out, is that states can choose whether or not to observe DST, but the USDOT determines which time zone any county or state is in, and Congress decides the time frame of DST for those who choose to observe it.  States can't actually choose to observe year-round DST, they would have to have the USDOT agree to move them east one time zone and then decide not to observe DST.

One thing to consider is that as of now, standard time is only slightly more than 4 months a year (or 1/3 of the year).  So the majority of the year is already at DST.  It would then seem appropriate that if the changing of the clocks were fully abandoned, it would not be missed.  Most places will probably shift their time to being towards summer time (especially eastern ends of the current time zone), but those on the western end will probably stay on winter time.

So Maine will move to Eastern Daylight Time / Atlantic Standard Time.  And Arizona will continue to be at Pacific Daylight Time / Mountain Standard Time.

So end the time change.  The whole country will be at fixed time.  Then move the boundaries of the time zones as appropriate to fit the needs of the population.

And once the time is set, then we can change the time of activities in our lives.  If the new time has dark mornings until 8:30 am, then make the schools start later.  In this day and age, we aren't tied in to specific times for most things.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on May 04, 2018, 11:30:50 AM
I suspect most supporters of year-round DST haven't wholly thought through the implications of the change...

I can think of no negative implications, especially as it personally concerns me.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: oscar on May 04, 2018, 12:00:08 PM
And once the time is set, then we can change the time of activities in our lives.  If the new time has dark mornings until 8:30 am, then make the schools start later.  In this day and age, we aren't tied in to specific times for most things.

We are for a lot of important things. Work schedules, for one. Good luck changing school hours, only to have the new hours conflict with parents' unchanged work schedules.

Daylight savings time effectively automatically changes all schedules, a lot easier than changing them one by one.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2018, 12:32:44 PM
I suspect most supporters of year-round DST haven't wholly thought through the implications of the change...
I can think of no negative implications, especially as it personally concerns me.

You must be able to wake up at or after 8:30 year round. Not all of us have that luxury.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 04, 2018, 02:39:07 PM
And once the time is set, then we can change the time of activities in our lives.  If the new time has dark mornings until 8:30 am, then make the schools start later.  In this day and age, we aren't tied in to specific times for most things.

We are for a lot of important things. Work schedules, for one. Good luck changing school hours, only to have the new hours conflict with parents' unchanged work schedules.

Daylight savings time effectively automatically changes all schedules, a lot easier than changing them one by one.
Especially since schools would have already changed thanks to research showing that teenagers are naturally night owls.  They don't because of concerns regarding activities and intersections with parent schedules.  Workplaces are also very resistant to changing their schedules.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2018, 02:48:13 PM
In this day and age, we aren't tied in to specific times for most things.

I believe that solar noon should be as close to 12:00 as possible.  In theory, I believe that, if our work and school and leisure schedules don't conform nicely to solar noon being close to 12:00, then we should change our schedules rather than shift 12:00 to something other than solar noon.  After all, there's nothing inherently difficult about waking up at 5 AM or going to sleep at 9 PM; it's only difficult for many of us because of what the sun is doing around those times.  In theory, I believe this.  In theory.

BUT.  Even in this day and age, we most certainly are tied in to specific times for most things.  At least I am, and so are most of the people I know.  Work starts at a specific time, school starts and ends at specific times, church starts at a specific time, the bus stops running at a specific time, the grocery store opens and the bank closes at specific times, etc, etc, etc.  And all those times are related to each other:  the bus stops running because most people are off work, the store doesn't open earlier because most people haven't gotten up yet, church starts at a time appropriate to its ending in time for lunch, and so on.  You can't just up and decide to get up at 11 AM and go to bed at 3 AM if you have a day job and kids in school.  Not that anyone suggested that, of course, but it's just as impossible for most of us to adjust our schedule by even one hour.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mrsman on May 04, 2018, 03:26:25 PM
And once the time is set, then we can change the time of activities in our lives.  If the new time has dark mornings until 8:30 am, then make the schools start later.  In this day and age, we aren't tied in to specific times for most things.

We are for a lot of important things. Work schedules, for one. Good luck changing school hours, only to have the new hours conflict with parents' unchanged work schedules.

Daylight savings time effectively automatically changes all schedules, a lot easier than changing them one by one.
Especially since schools would have already changed thanks to research showing that teenagers are naturally night owls.  They don't because of concerns regarding activities and intersections with parent schedules.  Workplaces are also very resistant to changing their schedules.

While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.  Many jobs allow you to work extra hours to allow for additional flexibility like alternate Fridays off and maybe telecommuting. 

Again the discussion amounts to adjusting time by an hour, not having people disrupt their schedule completely.

Wrt school, I don't see how any working adult can accommodate drop off and pick up on the same day.  If the school day is 8:30 - 3 and your commute is 30 minutes, you only have time for 5.5 hours of work.  You need to share the responsibility with a spouse or a neighbor.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on May 04, 2018, 03:27:42 PM
I suspect most supporters of year-round DST haven't wholly thought through the implications of the change...
I can think of no negative implications, especially as it personally concerns me.

You must be able to wake up at or after 8:30 year round. Not all of us have that luxury.

As stated earlier, my wake-up times are generally geared to either my alarm or my bladder. If not for my alarm waking me considerably earlier than 8:30 on work days, I'd probably sleep until 11 or 12.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2018, 03:44:45 PM
While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.

I don't think I know a single person who has a schedule like this.

(Actually, when I changed positions at work last year, I got to choose my hours.  But they had to be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and I do not get to change them at my every whim.)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 20160805 on May 04, 2018, 06:17:39 PM
And once the time is set, then we can change the time of activities in our lives.  If the new time has dark mornings until 8:30 am, then make the schools start later.  In this day and age, we aren't tied in to specific times for most things.

We are for a lot of important things. Work schedules, for one. Good luck changing school hours, only to have the new hours conflict with parents' unchanged work schedules.

Daylight savings time effectively automatically changes all schedules, a lot easier than changing them one by one.
Especially since schools would have already changed thanks to research showing that teenagers are naturally night owls.  They don't because of concerns regarding activities and intersections with parent schedules.  Workplaces are also very resistant to changing their schedules.
I wasn't - 05:00-21:00 sleep schedule since grade school here!  (To be specific, I've been getting up well before 06:00 daily since third grade [2000], and I've been going to bed at 21:00 since I was 13 and fresh out of eighth grade [2006].)

I know this will get buried as my last post on page 19 was, but there is exactly zero benefit in having DST for my daily schedule.  I prefer waking up around or slightly before sunrise, and I prefer going to bed long after dusk; if I were to have the same sunrise and sunset times year-round, I'd pick 06:00-18:00.  (Besides, that would align clock noon perfectly with solar noon, though that's beside the point.)

Prolonged periods of daylight into the evening and late-night hours would have course be beneficial to night owls and many of those who don't need as much sleep, but for someone like me who gets up and goes to bed at the same, relatively early time each day, it would actually be better for me to be on standard time year-round.  Sunsets approaching 20:00 are already getting annoying during my late-evening "walk around the house listening to the radio" sessions, being that I feel some songs (such as Pat Benatar's "Love is a Battlefield" and Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers' "Don't Come Around Here No More") are best listened to at night, and also for the sole reason of the discrepancy created between the time on the clock and the shade of the sky around me.  My bedtime from early childhood to age 9-10 was 20:00, and it's still ingrained in my mind that that's late at night.

Granted, being in Wisconsin, the latitude itself kind of screws me over in terms of preferred sunrise and sunset times, but for my own selfish whims I'd rather they work in favour of my own schedule as opposed to the more evening-centric daily cycle on which society seems to run.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 04, 2018, 08:19:59 PM
While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.  Many jobs allow you to work extra hours to allow for additional flexibility like alternate Fridays off and maybe telecommuting. 

Again the discussion amounts to adjusting time by an hour, not having people disrupt their schedule completely.

Wrt school, I don't see how any working adult can accommodate drop off and pick up on the same day.  If the school day is 8:30 - 3 and your commute is 30 minutes, you only have time for 5.5 hours of work.  You need to share the responsibility with a spouse or a neighbor.
And many office jobs don't.  On my internship, the company policy was 8-5 for the main shift, no exceptions.  And "8" meant 7:45, in order to allow people with different shifts to communicate in the office when needed.

At NYSDOT, one can choose their start time on half-hour increments between 7 and 9.  Compressed work weeks are available, though the rules were just tightened from what they had been, and the number of employees eligible to participate has been reduced.  Employers all over the place are rolling back options like telework and flex time.  The trend is clearly heading back to "sit at your desk and work these specified hours".
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 05, 2018, 05:42:45 AM
I know this will get buried as my last post on page 19 was, but there is exactly zero benefit in having DST for my daily schedule.  I prefer waking up around or slightly before sunrise, and I prefer going to bed long after dusk; if I were to have the same sunrise and sunset times year-round, I'd pick 06:00-18:00.  (Besides, that would align clock noon perfectly with solar noon, though that's beside the point.)
<snip>
Granted, being in Wisconsin, the latitude itself kind of screws me over in terms of preferred sunrise and sunset times, but for my own selfish whims I'd rather they work in favour of my own schedule as opposed to the more evening-centric daily cycle on which society seems to run.
Move to Singapore! As it's right by the equator, it has minimal disturbance from 12 hour daylight for a major, well-off, city. Of course, this isn't a very practical solution, but nor are the others people are throwing at night owls...

As for evening-centric, while society wants us awake from around equinox sunrise to several hours after equinox sunset, DST is about shrinking the evening and lengthening the  bit before morning and there's a very vocal subset that wants that anti-evening setup to be permanent. Meanwhile to abolish DST the other way doesn't have a vocal movement - society doesn't want to lengthen the evening: the push for standard time comes about as a reaction to the push to make sunrises later in winter to make the day less evening centric.

Plus it's far easier to miss out on TV and parties because you want to go to bed early, than constantly have the threat of being fired because the expectation of waking up early and being in work while it's still not light.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 05, 2018, 06:16:29 AM
As this thread gies on, I get stronger and stronger impression that DST is primarily a way to address 1 hour time zones being too wide and introduce sort of a halfway zone. Then naturally those at one edge of time zone like it more than those on the other edge as DST us geared towards eastern portion of the zone.
Add "do not touch the clock" group (including me) into the mix, and it all starts adding up... Maybe introducing non-dst Western half zones and DST eastern half zones is what we need? Mess would be an inevitable byproduct, like it would be for any other change though.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on May 05, 2018, 06:17:54 AM
As this thread gies on, I get stronger and stronger impression that DST is primarily a way to address 1 hour time zones being too wide and introduce sort of a halfway zone. Then naturally those at one edge of time zone like it more than those on the other edge as DST us geared towards eastern portion of the zone.
Add "do not touch the clock" group (including me) into the mix, and it all starts adding up... Maybe introducing non-dst Western half zones and DST eastern half zones is what we need? Mess would be an inevitable byproduct, like it would be for any other change though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B00:20 (that's UTC+00:20, or UTC+00:19:32.13)

UTC-00:25:21, UTC+01:24, and UTC+04:51 were also used at various times in history.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 05, 2018, 06:35:16 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B00:20 (that's UTC+00:20, or UTC+00:19:32.13)

UTC-00:25:21, UTC+01:24, and UTC+04:51 were also used at various times in history.
Not really relevant. Of course when there was little sybc between different parts of the world, any tiwn could set it own time zone with little effect on anything. Railroad brought the need for country and region wide sync; and global air travel, phone and radio made it more global.
What was lost in process is ability to finely match clock settings to local features (longitude and latitude, but also probably climate and relief), and this thread is about getting that ability back in one way or the other
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 05, 2018, 11:33:24 AM
About a week ago, I proposed one algorithm (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22229.msg2322741#msg2322741) that could be used to assign areas to time zones:  awarding a score to whether it is daylight/twilight/nighttime at certain times of the day, awarding points based on that (with a bias towards mornings being of greater sensitivity than evenings), and then seeking to maximize the score throughout the year.

I had the chance to run that algorithm for the "key city" for every TV market in the continental U.S.

If I impose a requirement that every time zone be an even number of hours off from UTC (e.g. EDT=UTC-4, CDT=UTC-5...), I get a map that looks something like this.  (Done with Excel's internal mapping, which leaves a lot to be desired...)

(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map1.png)

(Most of the "missing" counties in CONUS are an artifact of Excel's limited mapping capabilities.  Eureka County, NV is still part of the Denver DMA.)

Some of the TZ boundaries implied are inconveniently located.  So I tried again, imposing an alternate requirement that every time zone be a "half off" from even deviations from UTC (e.g. UTC -4½, UTC -5½...), and got this result:

(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map2.png)

...which actually bears a passing resemblance to the original railroad time zone proposal.  The "half off" offsets also is consistent with the popular difference of opinion over whether we should go to "just standard time" or "just daylight saving time" if we were to do away with the time change.

Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: doorknob60 on May 08, 2018, 06:53:33 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

I agree. Though it sounds absurd to think that Ontario, OR could be in Central Standard Time.

For the record, I'm totally opposed to permanent DST here (though I think eliminating DST would work well in some more southern states, like Florida who is trying to do it). To me: Mountain Time with DST > Permanent MDT/CST > Permanent MST. I fear that if anything changes in Idaho, it would be a change to permanent MST which would suck IMO.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US 89 on May 08, 2018, 08:36:55 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

I agree. Though it sounds absurd to think that Ontario, OR could be in Central Standard Time.

For the record, I'm totally opposed to permanent DST here (though I think eliminating DST would work well in some more southern states, like Florida who is trying to do it). To me: Mountain Time with DST > Permanent MDT/CST > Permanent MST. I fear that if anything changes in Idaho, it would be a change to permanent MST which would suck IMO.

Most of Idaho really belongs in the Pacific time zone. The ideal Mountain/Pacific line is 112.5 degrees west longitude, which is just west of Pocatello. Boise is more or less halfway between the ideal Mountain/Pacific line and Pacific time zone center (120 degrees west). So in a way, if Idaho abolished DST, southwest Idaho and eastern Oregon would essentially be on permanent DST. The current system is more like permanent DST in the winter and double DST in the summer.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: doorknob60 on May 08, 2018, 08:58:24 PM
Year-round DST, as a concept, makes absolutely no sense. Just move one time zone over without DST, and you'll have the same effect.

I agree. Though it sounds absurd to think that Ontario, OR could be in Central Standard Time.

For the record, I'm totally opposed to permanent DST here (though I think eliminating DST would work well in some more southern states, like Florida who is trying to do it). To me: Mountain Time with DST > Permanent MDT/CST > Permanent MST. I fear that if anything changes in Idaho, it would be a change to permanent MST which would suck IMO.

Most of Idaho really belongs in the Pacific time zone. The ideal Mountain/Pacific line is 112.5 degrees west longitude, which is just west of Pocatello. Boise is more or less halfway between the ideal Mountain/Pacific line and Pacific time zone center (120 degrees west). So in a way, if Idaho abolished DST, southwest Idaho and eastern Oregon would essentially be on permanent DST. The current system is more like permanent DST in the winter and double DST in the summer.

I know, and that's the way I like it. That's why I worry it might go away :-D  But I think it works better for most people than the other options would. Visiting places like Las Vegas or Los Angeles that are similar longitude but in Pacific Time is always a downgrade for me.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mrsman on May 09, 2018, 07:53:47 AM
While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.

I don't think I know a single person who has a schedule like this.

(Actually, when I changed positions at work last year, I got to choose my hours.  But they had to be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and I do not get to change them at my every whim.)

And for purposes of our discussion regarding DST that flexibility as mentioned in your parentheses is sufficient.  If you currently work an 8-4:30 schedule and are allowed the choice (even if only once in your career) to adjust that even by 1 hour to 7-3:30 or 9-5:30, then you have enough flexibility to work around yearround DST.

If you currently work 8-4:30 in a place that changes time every season that's equivalent to working 9-5:30 during the winter months.  And if assuming your state becomes permanent DST or permanent standard time, you will then have the choice of keeping your summer schedule (but face dark mornings in the winter), keeping your winter schedule (but have less daylight after work in the summer), or splitting the difference by going 8:30-5.  As all the other activities in your life will also become fixed, you can then pick the schedule that works for you.

And as far as my workplace goes, while there is a lot of flexibility in choosing your time, once its set that is your time and you cannot change it randomly.  I am set at a 8-4:30 schedule*, but many co-workers are either on an earlier or a later shift and we know that.  If someone asks me "Where's John?" I can say he doesn't come in until 9:30.

* But if we go on permanent DST, I can put in a request to move the time more to my liking within the constrains mentioned in my previous post.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: HazMatt on May 09, 2018, 10:00:39 AM
Chile comes off DST this weekend, unless the government decides to change it yet again.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 09, 2018, 01:32:58 PM
While there are many jobs with fixed schedules like retail and factory many knowledge base jobs allow for flexible schedules.  Where I currently work, so long as you work core hours of 10 - 3, you can work any shift that gives you 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch.   So I can work any schedule from 6:30 - 3 to 10 - 6:30.

I don't think I know a single person who has a schedule like this.

(Actually, when I changed positions at work last year, I got to choose my hours.  But they had to be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and I do not get to change them at my every whim.)

And for purposes of our discussion regarding DST that flexibility as mentioned in your parentheses is sufficient.  If you currently work an 8-4:30 schedule and are allowed the choice (even if only once in your career) to adjust that even by 1 hour to 7-3:30 or 9-5:30, then you have enough flexibility to work around yearround DST.

If you currently work 8-4:30 in a place that changes time every season that's equivalent to working 9-5:30 during the winter months.  And if assuming your state becomes permanent DST or permanent standard time, you will then have the choice of keeping your summer schedule (but face dark mornings in the winter), keeping your winter schedule (but have less daylight after work in the summer), or splitting the difference by going 8:30-5.  As all the other activities in your life will also become fixed, you can then pick the schedule that works for you.

And as far as my workplace goes, while there is a lot of flexibility in choosing your time, once its set that is your time and you cannot change it randomly.  I am set at a 8-4:30 schedule*, but many co-workers are either on an earlier or a later shift and we know that.  If someone asks me "Where's John?" I can say he doesn't come in until 9:30.

* But if we go on permanent DST, I can put in a request to move the time more to my liking within the constrains mentioned in my previous post.

I work 7:30 AM to 4:00 PM.  That's what I chose, and that's what I have to stick with.  Similar to you, but with no carve-out for DST.

But it doesn't really mean anything to say I chose that schedule.  My wife's schedule doesn't depend on mine.  Church activities don't depend on my schedule.  My friends' schedules don't depend on mine.  Etc.

My wife's schedule, however, does depend on what a typical work schedule is for other people.  Therefore, she works from approximately 7:30 AM to 5:00 PM.  Because she and I are getting up between 6 and 7 AM, then, our children also get up around that time; therefore they go to bed between 8 and 9 PM.  It's annoying to have to try and get young children to go to bed when it's still light out.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 09, 2018, 01:52:55 PM
And for purposes of our discussion regarding DST that flexibility as mentioned in your parentheses is sufficient.  If you currently work an 8-4:30 schedule and are allowed the choice (even if only once in your career) to adjust that even by 1 hour to 7-3:30 or 9-5:30, then you have enough flexibility to work around yearround DST.

If you currently work 8-4:30 in a place that changes time every season that's equivalent to working 9-5:30 during the winter months.  And if assuming your state becomes permanent DST or permanent standard time, you will then have the choice of keeping your summer schedule (but face dark mornings in the winter), keeping your winter schedule (but have less daylight after work in the summer), or splitting the difference by going 8:30-5.  As all the other activities in your life will also become fixed, you can then pick the schedule that works for you.

And as far as my workplace goes, while there is a lot of flexibility in choosing your time, once its set that is your time and you cannot change it randomly.  I am set at a 8-4:30 schedule*, but many co-workers are either on an earlier or a later shift and we know that.  If someone asks me "Where's John?" I can say he doesn't come in until 9:30.

* But if we go on permanent DST, I can put in a request to move the time more to my liking within the constrains mentioned in my previous post.
I think it's safe to say that most employers that aren't going the whole hog with flex time will NOT allow people to change their schedule on the current DST dates (I know at NYSDOT at least, the trend is towards reducing the amount of flexibility employees have in setting their schedule, not increasing it).  Plus the rest of the world won't move, which could mean a person couldn't use that option even if they had it.  Leaving work an hour later to avoid waking up in darkness may sound like an awesome idea, but not if it means commuting home in peak rush hour, missing the news, having a harder time scheduling appointments or with family, etc.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mrsman on May 09, 2018, 07:16:12 PM
And for purposes of our discussion regarding DST that flexibility as mentioned in your parentheses is sufficient.  If you currently work an 8-4:30 schedule and are allowed the choice (even if only once in your career) to adjust that even by 1 hour to 7-3:30 or 9-5:30, then you have enough flexibility to work around yearround DST.

If you currently work 8-4:30 in a place that changes time every season that's equivalent to working 9-5:30 during the winter months.  And if assuming your state becomes permanent DST or permanent standard time, you will then have the choice of keeping your summer schedule (but face dark mornings in the winter), keeping your winter schedule (but have less daylight after work in the summer), or splitting the difference by going 8:30-5.  As all the other activities in your life will also become fixed, you can then pick the schedule that works for you.

And as far as my workplace goes, while there is a lot of flexibility in choosing your time, once its set that is your time and you cannot change it randomly.  I am set at a 8-4:30 schedule*, but many co-workers are either on an earlier or a later shift and we know that.  If someone asks me "Where's John?" I can say he doesn't come in until 9:30.

* But if we go on permanent DST, I can put in a request to move the time more to my liking within the constrains mentioned in my previous post.
I think it's safe to say that most employers that aren't going the whole hog with flex time will NOT allow people to change their schedule on the current DST dates (I know at NYSDOT at least, the trend is towards reducing the amount of flexibility employees have in setting their schedule, not increasing it).  Plus the rest of the world won't move, which could mean a person couldn't use that option even if they had it.  Leaving work an hour later to avoid waking up in darkness may sound like an awesome idea, but not if it means commuting home in peak rush hour, missing the news, having a harder time scheduling appointments or with family, etc.

The idea is that everyone probably has some part of their schedule that is fixed and then everything else can be moved around that.  For me it's an early morning religious service 6:30-7 that I attend before work.  Then I commute and I arrive at work at 8.  Work 8 hours + lunch until 4:30 and then commute home.  My work schedule was of my choosing and I chose the time that was convenient with the religious service.  [The religious service was chosen to be convenient to most people's work schedules, but obviously it doesn't work for everyone.]

I can safely say that if the religious service were moved 30 min earlier or 30 min later, I would probably adjust my work schedule accordingly.  But if the religious service moved really late such that I would have to start work after 9 am, I would probably regrettable forego attending the religious service and attend an after-work religious service instead.

And the idea isn't that I will change my schedule every 6 months - if permanent DST is imposed, I will probably stay on my current schedule and face some dark winter mornings.

And that's OK and probably more convenient then actually being forced to change my schedule every November and March by the govt.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 09, 2018, 08:55:40 PM
Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on May 09, 2018, 08:58:15 PM
Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

No you're not the only one.  Especially now, as almost half my clocks set themselves anyway.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: US 89 on May 09, 2018, 10:19:01 PM
Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

I prefer DST as well. A sunrise before 5am in the summer is ridiculous, especially since sunset would be at 8pm. But if we did permanent DST, then winter sunrise would be as late as 9am with a sunset of 6pm. With summer DST, winter daylight lasts from 8 to 5, and summer daylight lasts from 5 to 9, which is a much better arrangement overall.

EDIT: those times are for Salt Lake City. The time of daylight is going to vary significantly depending on latitude.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on May 10, 2018, 12:10:42 AM
I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.  Should be timed and adjusted to prevent that whiplash, if we are going to insist on keeping this antiquated notion.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Road Hog on May 10, 2018, 01:47:10 AM
I'll throw out there again my idea of a nationwide time zone for the 48 contiguous states ... GMT-6.5.

Neither coast will be off by more than 90 minutes.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 10, 2018, 03:34:32 AM
I prefer DST as well. A sunrise before 5am in the summer is ridiculous, especially since sunset would be at 8pm.
A sunrise before 5am isn't that absurd - I don't think I'm going to notice the difference in 12 days time when I have that, compared to now (this is on DST) at quarter past 5. Either way it's still really early, though it does mean that I'm well awake at 7am.

I'm not sure a 5am standard time sunrise necessarily means a 8pm standard time sunset. With my 4am standard time sunrises, I then get 8pm standard time sunsets. Which translates as 5am-9pm on summer time. 9pm sunsets are going to be better for parents with young kids than 4am sunrises as at least parents would like to be up at 9pm!
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But if we did permanent DST, then winter sunrise would be as late as 9am with a sunset of 6pm.
Lucky - if sunrise here is moved to 9 (rather than just after 8) due to being on summer time mid-winter, sunset would be just before 5 (rather than just before 4).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 10, 2018, 07:57:24 AM
I prefer DST as well. A sunrise before 5am in the summer is ridiculous, especially since sunset would be at 8pm.
A sunrise before 5am isn't that absurd - I don't think I'm going to notice the difference in 12 days time when I have that, compared to now (this is on DST) at quarter past 5. Either way it's still really early, though it does mean that I'm well awake at 7am.

I'm not sure a 5am standard time sunrise necessarily means a 8pm standard time sunset. With my 4am standard time sunrises, I then get 8pm standard time sunsets. Which translates as 5am-9pm on summer time. 9pm sunsets are going to be better for parents with young kids than 4am sunrises as at least parents would like to be up at 9pm!
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But if we did permanent DST, then winter sunrise would be as late as 9am with a sunset of 6pm.
Lucky - if sunrise here is moved to 9 (rather than just after 8) due to being on summer time mid-winter, sunset would be just before 5 (rather than just before 4).
What people don't realize is that sunrise-sunset times change with latitude quite a bit, and what is described as oh-so-absolutely intolerable by someone to the south could be a very good case scenario few hundred miles to the north. Now Europe is in general more northern than US, with London in particular being to the north of Winnipeg, and Glasgow - quite a bit to the north of Edmonton...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 10, 2018, 08:42:01 AM
I prefer DST as well. A sunrise before 5am in the summer is ridiculous, especially since sunset would be at 8pm.
A sunrise before 5am isn't that absurd - I don't think I'm going to notice the difference in 12 days time when I have that, compared to now (this is on DST) at quarter past 5. Either way it's still really early, though it does mean that I'm well awake at 7am.

I'm not sure a 5am standard time sunrise necessarily means a 8pm standard time sunset. With my 4am standard time sunrises, I then get 8pm standard time sunsets. Which translates as 5am-9pm on summer time. 9pm sunsets are going to be better for parents with young kids than 4am sunrises as at least parents would like to be up at 9pm!
Quote
But if we did permanent DST, then winter sunrise would be as late as 9am with a sunset of 6pm.
Lucky - if sunrise here is moved to 9 (rather than just after 8) due to being on summer time mid-winter, sunset would be just before 5 (rather than just before 4).
What people don't realize is that sunrise-sunset times change with latitude quite a bit, and what is described as oh-so-absolutely intolerable by someone to the south could be a very good case scenario few hundred miles to the north. Now Europe is in general more northern than US, with London in particular being to the north of Winnipeg, and Glasgow - quite a bit to the north of Edmonton...

Then why change something that works in the South just to satisfy someone a *thousand miles away or more* to the north?

Seems like if someone can't deal with the sunlight variations, they should move to an area that works better for them.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 10, 2018, 10:08:31 AM
I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.

At our latitude, it literally only takes a few weeks to regain that hour. It certainly couldn't occur at a better time of year, and it makes for *more or less* ideal daylight usage in the summer and the winter. In the grand scheme of things, losing that hour is mildly annoying, but doesn't by any means outweigh the positive implications.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 10, 2018, 10:46:24 AM
Then why change something that works in the South just to satisfy someone a *thousand miles away or more* to the north?

Seems like if someone can't deal with the sunlight variations, they should move to an area that works better for them.
Is that an argument for, or against DST?  :sombrero: I can see it both ways.
Clock sync to 60 min increments is done in the interest of non-local commerce (remember railroads initiating all these?); so interests of those *thousand miles away or more* are in the game.
Now looks like most people don't mind individual states selecting their own time zone and DST rules (at least to some extent, multiple DST dates within same economic area would be a problem) without regards to preferences of other state which are *thousand miles away or more*.
And (personal opinion below) I don't quite buy those arguments about DST back-and-forth being oh-so-crucial as I do have some perspective from living further north where you wake up in a dark November to February, no matter DST or not; and you wake up in broad sunlight in summer - also regardless of DST or not. And I do think that 1-hour move is really uncomfortable. But this is just me.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on May 10, 2018, 11:34:53 AM


I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.

At our latitude, it literally only takes a few weeks to regain that hour. It certainly couldn't occur at a better time of year, and it makes for *more or less* ideal daylight usage in the summer and the winter. In the grand scheme of things, losing that hour is mildly annoying, but doesn't by any means outweigh the positive implications.

Those weeks are brutal and intolerable and not ideal.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 10, 2018, 11:38:20 AM
I don't quite buy those arguments about DST back-and-forth being oh-so-crucial as I do have some perspective from living further north where you wake up in a dark November to February, no matter DST or not; and you wake up in broad sunlight in summer - also regardless of DST or not. And I do think that 1-hour move is really uncomfortable. But this is just me.

Bingo.  If you have a routine of getting up at 6:30AM every morning then you are probably already waking up in pitch darkness during the winter solstice.  Of the top 20 major metros in America, dawn begins before 6:30AM in only LA, Riverside, and San Diego (all southern cities).  Dawn doesn't begin before 6:30AM in any major northern city.  If you really need daylight to wake up, then you shouldn't live in a northern city during the winter.  Now a lack of daylight in the winter is offset with an abundance of daylight during the summer so you do got that to look forward to at least.

Nobody is going to be happy with the sunrise/sunset times in northern cities during the winter because there is so damn little daylight to begin with (not to mention it's brutally cold so you're probably already pretty miserable).  That's why the focus should be on what sunrise/sunset times makes people happy during the summer (and let the winter sunrise/sunsets just fall into place from there).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 10, 2018, 01:56:51 PM
So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks?  Many clocks are automatic or have some kind of DST switch these days, and digital clocks aren't that hard to set.  Unless everything's analog for you, I'm not sure what's so hard about it.  Of course, shifting my bedtime the night before to prepare (since I tend to stay up a couple hours later on Friday/Saturday than the rest of the week, and wake up 3-6 hours later, the shift isn't noticed because my weekend schedule is shifted by a huge amount anyways).

Regarding cold and whatnot, unlike the people down south (and many people up here too), I actually like the seasons.  I wouldn't want to live somewhere that was hot year round.  It would feel to weird.  That's not even getting to the fact that a warm winter probably means an unbearable summer.

I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.  Should be timed and adjusted to prevent that whiplash, if we are going to insist on keeping this antiquated notion.
That's why I'd go back to the way it was before Bush changed it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 10, 2018, 02:10:11 PM
So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks?  Many clocks are automatic or have some kind of DST switch these days, and digital clocks aren't that hard to set.  Unless everything's analog for you, I'm not sure what's so hard about it.  Of course, shifting my bedtime the night before to prepare (since I tend to stay up a couple hours later on Friday/Saturday than the rest of the week, and wake up 3-6 hours later, the shift isn't noticed because my weekend schedule is shifted by a huge amount anyways).

Regarding cold and whatnot, unlike the people down south (and many people up here too), I actually like the seasons.  I wouldn't want to live somewhere that was hot year round.  It would feel to weird.  That's not even getting to the fact that a warm winter probably means an unbearable summer.

I don't see how any Northeasterner can enjoy DST.  Right when the Sun starts coming up, you spring forward and thrown into the dark again.  Throws of your rhythms.  Should be timed and adjusted to prevent that whiplash, if we are going to insist on keeping this antiquated notion.
That's why I'd go back to the way it was before Bush changed it.

OK, lets look at it from the other side.
So just because someone cannot make themselves to observe simple schedule, we should have more people suffer like that just because some people are too lazy to behave? Unless you have unstructured job where you're doing something different and at different time every single day, it is fairly easy and natural to live on a 24-hour schedule. Unless everything's messy around you, I'm not sure what's so hard about it.

Of course, you don't put value in scheduling as your weekend schedule is shifted by a huge amount anyways. Shifting your bedtime the night before to prepare (since you tend to stay up a couple hours later on Friday/Saturday than the rest of the week, and wake up 3-6 hours later, the shift isn't noticed) - but don't enforce that slap in the face on others who try (or have to) live more organized and healthier life.

 :sombrero:
I tried to be symmetric here..
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 10, 2018, 02:28:46 PM
It's not laziness.  I've had problems with insomnia and waking up for as long as I've been alive.  I suspect it's delayed sleep phase syndrome.  On the few occasions I've pulled all-nighters, I've noticed that I actually function fairly well on a 36 hour day.

It doesn't help that my work is contrary to my circadian rhythm.  It's much easier to keep a schedule when it matches your natural rhythm than when it doesn't.

My Asperger's Syndrome may also contribute.  My sense to time is all screwed up, so I'm reliant on clocks to tell me what time it is no matter how long ago the last time change was.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 10, 2018, 03:03:43 PM
So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks? 

People living above the 40th parallel (northern states) are going to be miserable during the winter no matter what the dawn/dusk times are.  It’s apparent you value more sun in the morning to function, but then you are ignoring those who get depressed when the sun sets so early during the winter.  The people who want later sunrises are ignoring people like you who want more sunlight in the morning to function.  Ultimately, someone is going to get shafted.

People living below the 35th parallel (southern states) aren’t so miserable in the winter because they get a little more sunlight throughout the day and the weather can be quite pleasant.   So why not pick dawn/dusk times in the winter that works best for the southern states?  It just so happens Florida is the state pushing hardest for permanent DST.  In addition, Arizona has already decided that year-round standard time works best for them.  So, we are left with California, Texas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina.  What do these states want?  I imagine most of these states would favor year-round DST as it would likely inject more winter tourism dollars into their economies.  More sunlight into the evenings means more money spent by those northern tourists.  And are those northern tourists who usually get up at 6AM for work still getting up at 6AM while they are on their week-long winter vacation in Florida?  Potentially, these “morning people” would transform into “night owls” during their week-long vacation and would benefit from the later sunsets while they are on the beach.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on May 10, 2018, 03:26:06 PM
I'll throw out there again my idea of a nationwide time zone for the 48 contiguous states ... GMT-6.5.

Neither coast will be off by more than 90 minutes.
That would mean for me in CT that on June 21st the sun would rise at 2:45 AM and set at 6:00 PM, and on December 21st the sun would rise at 5:49 AM and set at 2:50 PM.  No way that would fly.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 10, 2018, 04:09:41 PM
I'll throw out there again my idea of a nationwide time zone for the 48 contiguous states ... GMT-6.5.

Neither coast will be off by more than 90 minutes.
That would mean for me in CT that on June 21st the sun would rise at 2:45 AM and set at 6:00 PM, and on December 21st the sun would rise at 5:49 AM and set at 2:50 PM.  No way that would fly.
It would work beautifully if your working day is adjusted to 6.30-3.00 or so, and school starts at 6.00
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
There is unrest in the forest, there is trouble with the trees, for the maples want more sunlight and the oaks ignore their pleas.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 10, 2018, 08:15:22 PM
So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks? 

People living above the 40th parallel (northern states) are going to be miserable during the winter no matter what the dawn/dusk times are.  It’s apparent you value more sun in the morning to function, but then you are ignoring those who get depressed when the sun sets so early during the winter.  The people who want later sunrises are ignoring people like you who want more sunlight in the morning to function.  Ultimately, someone is going to get shafted.

People living below the 35th parallel (southern states) aren’t so miserable in the winter because they get a little more sunlight throughout the day and the weather can be quite pleasant.   So why not pick dawn/dusk times in the winter that works best for the southern states?  It just so happens Florida is the state pushing hardest for permanent DST.  In addition, Arizona has already decided that year-round standard time works best for them.  So, we are left with California, Texas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina.  What do these states want?  I imagine most of these states would favor year-round DST as it would likely inject more winter tourism dollars into their economies.  More sunlight into the evenings means more money spent by those northern tourists.  And are those northern tourists who usually get up at 6AM for work still getting up at 6AM while they are on their week-long winter vacation in Florida?  Potentially, these “morning people” would transform into “night owls” during their week-long vacation and would benefit from the later sunsets while they are on the beach.
I'm pretty sure it was pointed out that seasonal affective disorder is more about TOTAL amount of sunlight, rather than amount after work.  In any case, that might be a good reason why offices need windows.  I certainly find being in a glorified artificial cave depressing.

Tourism is certainly a reason that I have to fear permanent DST that I don't think about enough.  Tourist traffic on I-87 is unbearable in the summer.  Would this cause similar traffic in the winter as well?

As for favoring southern states, I have two words for that, which I will not write down here.  Let's just say that I already believe that the south is favored too much and leave it at that.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on May 10, 2018, 09:13:46 PM
Instead of moving our clocks twice a year, move the Earth to a binary star system. Twice the suns = twice the amount of daylight. Now that's how you save daylight.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 10, 2018, 09:32:45 PM
Instead of moving our clocks twice a year, move the Earth to a binary star system. Twice the suns = twice the amount of daylight. Now that's how you save daylight.
No chance to get support for that from current administration. But converting moon to a smaller star may get some traction.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 11, 2018, 07:05:27 AM
People living above the 40th parallel (northern states) are going to be miserable during the winter no matter what the dawn/dusk times are.
Very true (from above the 50th) - though at least here I get summer happy, which I'm not sure I would living long term somewhere further south where the sunrise is post-6am in summer (with DST). The winter isn't that bad as then everyone is tired and semi-hibernating - the worst bit is actually the fall due to changing clocks back too late - and unlike Miami, etc I get later sunrises and earlier sunsets in Dec/Jan than just before the clocks go back.

I don't have much of a problem with Floridians effectively working much earlier relative to solar noon (or the general US trend for that compared to the UK) - I'm not in Florida, and if I was, I'd be on vacation anyway. I will point out that post-8am sunrises are very depressing and they won't like them, even if it means they get half an hours' worth of light after work those winter days, rather than none.
I'm pretty sure it was pointed out that seasonal affective disorder is more about TOTAL amount of sunlight, rather than amount after work.
If any end of the day matters more for SAD, it's the morning.

Certainly sleep-related conditions are worse at the west edges of time zones than the east, suggesting a lack of evening light isn't bad for the body/brain.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 20160805 on May 11, 2018, 07:20:01 AM
Apparently nobody else ever likes darkness or has trouble sleeping when it's still light out past bedtime.  You guys talk about my 16:15 December sunsets like they're the devil or something.

I'd like to wake up just before dawn and go to bed well after dusk; 06:00-18:00 daylight hours are just plain optimized to my personal preferences.  And when we worry about night owls not having enough light after work (which contradicts the point of being a night owl, doesn't it?, as they'd now be known as "morning owls"), we ignore the fact that there are some people who don't want to be forced to stay awake until 22:30.  And if I stay awake until 22:30, I get only about six hours of sleep, causing me to be cranky and lethargic the next day, and if this is a year-round thing, I'd probably get fired.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 11, 2018, 08:46:53 AM
So just because it's a dark morning on the day with the latest sunrise means we should have more days like that just because some people are too lazy to change clocks? 

People living above the 40th parallel (northern states) are going to be miserable during the winter no matter what the dawn/dusk times are.  It’s apparent you value more sun in the morning to function, but then you are ignoring those who get depressed when the sun sets so early during the winter.  The people who want later sunrises are ignoring people like you who want more sunlight in the morning to function.  Ultimately, someone is going to get shafted.

People living below the 35th parallel (southern states) aren’t so miserable in the winter because they get a little more sunlight throughout the day and the weather can be quite pleasant.   So why not pick dawn/dusk times in the winter that works best for the southern states?  It just so happens Florida is the state pushing hardest for permanent DST.  In addition, Arizona has already decided that year-round standard time works best for them.  So, we are left with California, Texas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina.  What do these states want?  I imagine most of these states would favor year-round DST as it would likely inject more winter tourism dollars into their economies.  More sunlight into the evenings means more money spent by those northern tourists.  And are those northern tourists who usually get up at 6AM for work still getting up at 6AM while they are on their week-long winter vacation in Florida?  Potentially, these “morning people” would transform into “night owls” during their week-long vacation and would benefit from the later sunsets while they are on the beach.
I'm pretty sure it was pointed out that seasonal affective disorder is more about TOTAL amount of sunlight, rather than amount after work.  In any case, that might be a good reason why offices need windows.  I certainly find being in a glorified artificial cave depressing.

Tourism is certainly a reason that I have to fear permanent DST that I don't think about enough.  Tourist traffic on I-87 is unbearable in the summer.  Would this cause similar traffic in the winter as well?

As for favoring southern states, I have two words for that, which I will not write down here.  Let's just say that I already believe that the south is favored too much and leave it at that.

Actually, depending on the person, it's been mentioned several times they just wanted later daylight.

I doubt tourism would go up much because of winter and school schedules, and if tourism were to go up, it would be going up all over the northern climates and not limited to any one particular area.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 11, 2018, 12:27:20 PM
I doubt tourism would go up much because of winter and school schedules, and if tourism were to go up, it would be going up all over the northern climates and not limited to any one particular area.
I would think that for Northway - 3 hours drive from anywhere else - tourist needs at least a full day - more like several days - to do anything meaningful; and shift of DST/solar time would affect hours of skiing resorts operation (they do need sunlight), and when people are going to/from there within a day - but not a total headcount.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: oscar on May 11, 2018, 12:34:32 PM
post-8am sunrises are very depressing

Worse still are sunrises just before lunchtime, like in Fairbanks AK around the winter solstice.

But DST is useless in Alaska due to the extreme variations in daylight, so thought has been given to abandoning DST there (preferring to synch with non-DST Asian trading partners than with the rest of North America).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on May 11, 2018, 01:37:33 PM
post-8am sunrises are very depressing

Worse still are sunrises just before lunchtime, like in Fairbanks AK around the winter solstice.

But DST is useless in Alaska due to the extreme variations in daylight, so thought has been given to abandoning DST there (preferring to synch with non-DST Asian trading partners than with the rest of North America).

Agree that DST is useless in the main part of Alaska.  But they decided to put the whole state in one time zone, and DST is useful in the panhandle.  Also there's a whole lot more trade and travel to the Lower 48 than there is to the Asian trading partners.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 11, 2018, 01:49:22 PM
I doubt tourism would go up much because of winter and school schedules, and if tourism were to go up, it would be going up all over the northern climates and not limited to any one particular area.
I would think that for Northway - 3 hours drive from anywhere else - tourist needs at least a full day - more like several days - to do anything meaningful; and shift of DST/solar time would affect hours of skiing resorts operation (they do need sunlight), and when people are going to/from there within a day - but not a total headcount.
While volume heading up to the Adirondacks is certainly a major factor in non-commuting congestion (especially since the Northway is essentially a funnel for traffic from Boston, Syracuse, Binghamton, and NYC), shopping traffic can be an issue too.  The biggest causes of congesion on my commute (especially since I'm south of the Twin Bridges) are the merges onto I-87 from Wolf Road and, if busy enough to back up to exit 5 (or stuck behind someone who travels slowly in the exit only lane because people in the general purpose lanes are, either because they're cautious, obsessed about not passing on the right, or cutting through the lane with intent to "merge" just before exit 6), also NY 7/NY 2 and the NY 7 freeway.

Apparently nobody else ever likes darkness or has trouble sleeping when it's still light out past bedtime.  You guys talk about my 16:15 December sunsets like they're the devil or something.

I'd like to wake up just before dawn and go to bed well after dusk; 06:00-18:00 daylight hours are just plain optimized to my personal preferences.  And when we worry about night owls not having enough light after work (which contradicts the point of being a night owl, doesn't it?, as they'd now be known as "morning owls"), we ignore the fact that there are some people who don't want to be forced to stay awake until 22:30.  And if I stay awake until 22:30, I get only about six hours of sleep, causing me to be cranky and lethargic the next day, and if this is a year-round thing, I'd probably get fired.
It doesn't really happen where I'm from (latest sunset in Albany is 8:36), but yes, that would be an issue for me if it did, especially since my bedroom gets the evening sun.  I don't know how people in more northern places do it.  I've even been known to put blankets on my face at night just to block out the light from the LEDs that illuminate the grounds outside my apartment sometimes.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 02:07:18 PM
Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

But having to drag myself out of bed in pitch darkness is why I'm against changing the clocks.

If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

Every year, just when I'm starting to enjoy it being a little bit light outside when my alarm goes off, that happiness gets yanked out from under me, precisely because DST makes us change our clocks.

DST doesn't even enter into it in the middle of winter, which is when the windshield ice is thick enough to even matter.  Because that's not when DST is.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on May 11, 2018, 02:19:13 PM
Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

But having to drag myself out of bed in pitch darkness is why I'm against changing the clocks.

If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

Every year, just when I'm starting to enjoy it being a little bit light outside when my alarm goes off, that happiness gets yanked out from under me, precisely because DST makes us change our clocks.

DST doesn't even enter into it in the middle of winter, which is when the windshield ice is thick enough to even matter.  Because that's not when DST is.

That's a problem with the extension of the time DST is observed that started in 2007, not with the concept of DST in general.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 11, 2018, 02:25:07 PM
I doubt tourism would go up much because of winter and school schedules, and if tourism were to go up, it would be going up all over the northern climates and not limited to any one particular area.

I don’t think a northern state like Michigan has the same level of winter tourism as Florida.  Florida had nearly 120 million visitors last year, and winter tourism plays a pivotal role in Florida’s economy.  I believe Florida legislator passed the Sunshine Protection Act largely due to the fact that they believe later sunsets in the winter would pump more money into their economy.  A JP Morgan Chase November 2016 study found:

Quote
Our analysis finds the policy is associated with a 0.9 percent increase in daily card spending per capita in Los Angeles at the beginning of DST and a reduction in daily card spending per capita of 3.5 percent at the end of DST. The increase in spending at the beginning of DST is determined by comparing daily card spending per capita in the 30 days before DST starts, to daily card spending per capita in the 30 days after DST starts. The decrease at the end captures a similar window to compare spending in the 30 days before and after the end of DST. Most of the impact stems from responses at the end of DST, when spending on goods drops more than spending on services, and spending during the work week drops more than weekend spending. The magnitude of the spending reductions outweighs increased spending at the beginning of DST.

Once DST begins, there is an increase in purchases, and once DST ends the purchases decline.  The theory is that once DST ends, it may affect people's decision to patronize a merchant when it's already dark out after work.  The same concept can be applied to tourists.  Once it gets dark out, this may affect tourist's decision to patronize a merchant...

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There are large differences in spending changes across days of the week. Increases in card spending at the beginning of DST are virtually the same for weekdays and weekends in Los Angeles. However, spending during the work week declined significantly more than spending during the weekend at the end of DST. This finding is consistent with the idea that consumers with jobs may have limited time to shop during the work week. If daylight affects the decision to patronize a merchant, we would expect that losing an hour of daylight would have a larger effect when there are fewer hours available. Conversely, since most consumers do not work on the weekends, they have the freedom to engage in commerce over a far greater range of times on Saturdays and Sundays.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 02:32:20 PM
Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

But having to drag myself out of bed in pitch darkness is why I'm against changing the clocks.

If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

Every year, just when I'm starting to enjoy it being a little bit light outside when my alarm goes off, that happiness gets yanked out from under me, precisely because DST makes us change our clocks.

DST doesn't even enter into it in the middle of winter, which is when the windshield ice is thick enough to even matter.  Because that's not when DST is.

That's a problem with the extension of the time DST is observed that started in 2007, not with the concept of DST in general.

Depending on what time you wake up, that is...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 11, 2018, 02:41:34 PM
If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

But by the summer solstice the sunrise in Wichita would be 5:07 AM without DST.  That may not sound too early, but keep in mind Wichita is on the western edge of Central Time and at a relatively southern latitude.   Consider the effects no DST would have on northern latitude city on the eastern edge of a time zone (ie. Boston).   The sun would rise in Boston at 4:07AM with dawn breaking at 3:32AM.  It would be even worse in Maine.... at the very northeastern edge of Maine the sun would rise at 3:36AM with dawn breaking at 2:56AM without DST.  That's too ridiculous and would guarantee Maine moving to Atlantic time (or at least petitioning the USDOT to do so). 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 03:38:39 PM
If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

But by the summer solstice the sunrise in Wichita would be 5:07 AM without DST.  That may not sound too early, but keep in mind Wichita is on the western edge of Central Time and at a relatively southern latitude.   Consider the effects no DST would have on northern latitude city on the eastern edge of a time zone (ie. Boston).   The sun would rise in Boston at 4:07AM with dawn breaking at 3:32AM.  It would be even worse in Maine.... at the very northeastern edge of Maine the sun would rise at 3:36AM with dawn breaking at 2:56AM without DST.  That's too ridiculous and would guarantee Maine moving to Atlantic time (or at least petitioning the USDOT to do so). 

Wichita isn't really on the western edge of the time zone.  I grew up in Atwood, KS, where dusk in June pushes 10:00 PM.  That was insane, and it was impossible to get to sleep on time in the summer.  Wichita is also not very far south.  The latitude midpoint between Brownsville (TX) and International Falls (MN) is actually about 30 miles south of Wichita.  Use Miami instead of Brownsville, and it gets pushed a few miles farther to the south.

A 5:07 AM sunrise would be awesome, frankly.  I've been in European cities when the sunrise was that early, and it was super easy to get up on time and go about your business.

Northern locales do seem to want DST more than southern locales.  Longer sunlight in the evening, after all, isn't all that appealing to people who deal with 110° heat in the summer—whereas longer sunlight in the evening is appealing to people who deal with 4:30 PM sunsets.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 11, 2018, 04:06:01 PM
Northern locales do seem to want DST more than southern locales.  Longer sunlight in the evening, after all, isn't all that appealing to people who deal with 110° heat in the summer—whereas longer sunlight in the evening is appealing to people who deal with 4:30 PM sunsets.

Great point.  That's probably a big reason why Arizona wants to stick with standard time.  Not to mention they probably don't mind being in sync with LA during the summer.  Arizona is also on the western edge of the timezone, so it's not entirely surprising that they pick standard time .  If permanent DST took hold i could see states like Michigan, Indiana, Utah, and Idaho joining Arizona on standard time (or at least debating it in their legislators).  The Dakotas are kind of wacky, because they already have the time-zone splitting the state in the middle.. but the Eastern half of the Dakotas might want to be on standard time as well. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 04:10:22 PM
That's probably a big reason why Arizona wants to stick with standard time.

Tell someone in Phoenix you'll give them more sunlight hours to go have fun outside in July.  Record their reaction.  I want to see it.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 11, 2018, 04:20:44 PM
That's probably a big reason why Arizona wants to stick with standard time.

Tell someone in Phoenix you'll give them more sunlight hours to go have fun outside in July.  Record their reaction.  I want to see it.
Too weak gun control laws in AZ for even planning such an experiment.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 11, 2018, 04:22:37 PM
But it's certainly not just the desert west that deals with heat.

If my wife and I want to take the kids for a walk in the summer—by the time the sun is low enough that we're not a hot and sweaty mess when we get back, the kids are already supposed to be in bed.  I remember a few years ago when we only had two kids, we would put them in a stroller and jog underneath the canal route here in Wichita.  We jogged under the highway because of the shade.  Even so, in the summer, that meant we sometimes started at the kids' bedtime and got them to bed like 1½ hours late—and my wife still often stripped down to her sports bra to jog in, because it was too hot for a tee shirt.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 11, 2018, 08:12:57 PM
Am I seriously the only person who finds changing the clocks to be more convenient than things like dragging myself out of bed in pitch darkness (even when it's light out, it's pretty hard) or trying to scrape ice off the windshield when the sun hasn't had a chance to warm things up?

But having to drag myself out of bed in pitch darkness is why I'm against changing the clocks.

If we didn't have DST, then we wouldn't be setting our clocks an hour ahead in the spring before spring even begins.  So, for example, Wichita's current sunrise time of 6:22 AM would actually be 5:22 AM.  When my alarm goes off at 6:00, it would already be light outside and I'd be a lot more eager to get out of bed.

Every year, just when I'm starting to enjoy it being a little bit light outside when my alarm goes off, that happiness gets yanked out from under me, precisely because DST makes us change our clocks.

DST doesn't even enter into it in the middle of winter, which is when the windshield ice is thick enough to even matter.  Because that's not when DST is.

That's a problem with the extension of the time DST is observed that started in 2007, not with the concept of DST in general.

Plus most proposals for ending the changing of the clocks are permanent DST rather than ending DST, so that wouldn't help either.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on May 11, 2018, 08:40:46 PM
Daylight encourages people to work; darkness symbolizes work is finished.  So getting more daylight in the morning encourages people to start working.  Earlier darkness should be welcomed as it indicates the day is done.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 20160805 on May 12, 2018, 09:43:55 AM
Daylight encourages people to work; darkness symbolizes work is finished.  So getting more daylight in the morning encourages people to start working.  Earlier darkness should be welcomed as it indicates the day is done.
Exactly.  And when it's still light out until a ridiculously late hour, there's no visual indication that the day is done, so it still feels like only 16:30 even when the clocks all say 21:00.  And there's no way in heck my body's going to let me sleep at 16:30.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Road Hog on May 13, 2018, 10:31:08 PM
Truth be told, there are certain times in the year where I would prefer driving to work before dawn. There’s an easterly component to my driving and it completely sucks having the sunrise blinding me.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 07:47:28 AM
Daylight encourages people to work; darkness symbolizes work is finished.  So getting more daylight in the morning encourages people to start working.  Earlier darkness should be welcomed as it indicates the day is done.
Exactly.  And when it's still light out until a ridiculously late hour, there's no visual indication that the day is done, so it still feels like only 16:30 even when the clocks all say 21:00.  And there's no way in heck my body's going to let me sleep at 16:30.

It sounds like you guys are promoting DRT - "daylight reduction time".  Seeing that 48 out of 50 states observe DST, it appears most of the nation wants more daylight to extend later into their summer evenings.  Personally, i don't want it to be dark at 6PM when i get off work in the summer and anybody who does is a "nut job" to me.  No offense. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on May 14, 2018, 08:34:36 AM
Daylight encourages people to work; darkness symbolizes work is finished.  So getting more daylight in the morning encourages people to start working.  Earlier darkness should be welcomed as it indicates the day is done.
Exactly.  And when it's still light out until a ridiculously late hour, there's no visual indication that the day is done, so it still feels like only 16:30 even when the clocks all say 21:00.  And there's no way in heck my body's going to let me sleep at 16:30.

It sounds like you guys are promoting DRT - "daylight reduction time".  Seeing that 48 out of 50 states observe DST, it appears most of the nation wants more daylight to extend later into their summer evenings.  Personally, i don't want it to be dark at 6PM when i get off work in the summer and anybody who does is a "nut job" to me.  No offense.

Even without DST, dark at 6 PM in the summer is impossible unless you live in one of the few places where solar noon is before 12:00 and it's almost autumn, and even then, it will be mostly but not completely dark.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 08:42:19 AM
Even without DST, dark at 6 PM in the summer is impossible unless you live in one of the few places where solar noon is before 12:00 and it's almost autumn, and even then, it will be mostly but not completely dark.

That's why i said they were proposing Daylight "Reduction" Time.  The sun would set even an hour before standard time.  No thanks.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 14, 2018, 08:59:45 AM
It sounds like you guys are promoting DRT - "daylight reduction time".
That's a massive misnomer. They are no more proposing reducing the amount of daylight than the UK campaign to move to CET 'Lighter Longer' (and even selling it on a lie, they fail miserably) are proposing lengthening the amount of daylight. Daylight Savings makes sense as a name - you save some daylight in the morning to spend in the evening.

It's all tweaking the clock to use the same amount of daylight a different way. Perhaps you can call it 'Daylight Spending' - spending an extra hour of daylight (vs now in summer, where it is saved) in the mornings rather than saving it to use in the evening.
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Personally, i don't want it to be dark at 6PM when i get off work in the summer
Move north then! Get an earlier shift. Other BS that people have said to people complaining about dark winter mornings swapped round. (subtext that this issue of yours is a sign of your moral and mental failing and you need to buck your ideas up...) </sarcasm>

Note that their complaints were 9pm sunsets being too late, not the lack of 6pm ones. Since DST started, I'm certainly regularly going "hang on, it's 5pm, I thought it was earlier".

I agree with you that DST is generally a useful thing, but they have a point that late sunsets are problematic. Personally I think light at 9pm is preferable to light at 4am (using London day lengths), but it's clearly the case that both have problems and neither have benefits. At my latitude, DST makes little sense in summer because the evenings have enough light without saving an hour from the morning to use in the evening. We keep DST, despite it bordering on being too much day in the pm, as it's easier than changing clocks again and we don't need the sun in the morning as we have enough there.
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and anybody who does is a "nut job" to me.  No offense.
Being a called a "nut job" by someone bonkers enough to want 8am sunrises is a compliment. No offense.
The sun would set even an hour before standard time.  No thanks.
Where did they propose that? I don't see any 'daylight borrowing' being proposed!

But lets say they are doing that - how is reducing summer pm daylight any more a reduction of daylight from these campaigns to reducing winter am daylight that you so love? Either you are stupid and actually think that changing the clocks changes the amount of daylight, or you are slandering the idea in an attempt to discredit because you cannot provide a genuine argument against it...
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 11:44:30 AM
Being a called a "nut job" by someone bonkers enough to want 8am sunrises is a compliment. No offense.

In Dolly Parton’s America, we work from 9 to 5.  I don’t see how 8AM sunrises during the winter are that unreasonable.  Get up when the sun rises at 8AM and have an hour to get ready and head to work.  If it takes you longer than an hour to get to work, then you deserve to be waking up in pitch darkness… you little snowflake. 

Again, take a look at the dawn times for the top 20 metro regions in America during the winter solstice if the nation observed year-round DST.  The dawn begins before 8AM in many of the metros... PERFECT.  Before you respond just watch yourself, claiming that Dolly Parton is wrong would be blasphemy. 

(https://i.imgur.com/bNDzuPH.png)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kj3400 on May 14, 2018, 12:08:05 PM
Please don't be so presumptuous as to claim everyone works 9 to 5. I couldn't care less what time the sun comes up or goes down as I wake up long after it has risen and get home long after it sets.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 14, 2018, 12:24:31 PM
In Dolly Parton’s America, we work from 9 to 5.  I don’t see how 8AM sunrises during the winter are that unreasonable.  Get up when the sun rises at 8AM and have an hour to get ready and head to work.

I don't know anyone who works from 9 to 5. A 9:00 start time is actually quite late; the average start time is probably around 8:00. I work 7:30 to 4:30 (a 9-hour day, which is also more typical). Because of this, in the winter, it's important that solar noon is as near as possible to actual noon. In summer, that matters a lot less, hence DST for people to enjoy the evening daylight.

Further to that, it's foolish to try to minimize Awake in Dark and Sleep in Light for night owls... we LIKE those things.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Road Hog on May 14, 2018, 12:37:00 PM
I think 9-to-5 is more normal in the Eastern Time Zone where everything is shifted an hour ahead relative to Central. In the Central, 8-to-4 is typical (or more likely 8-5 with a one-hour lunch).

Probably 9-to-5 is normal in the Pacific zone as well, because their TV prime time starts at 8 p.m. local, just like in the East.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 14, 2018, 12:48:19 PM
I don’t see how 8AM sunrises during the winter are that unreasonable.
I have them every year for about a month - I really wouldn't recommend them. It would be perhaps justifiable if there was something fruitful like a couple of hours of sunlight after work to do a genuinely outdoors activity like play a sport*, but even as far south as Miami you only get 90 minutes of light after 5pm.

But to want them with the daylight robbery time (stealing an hour of sunlight needed in the morning to put it in the evening) that you so like, for the petty reason of wanting to eat an evening meal outside in winter, is totally unreasonable.

Eating outside year-round is a lifestyle choice, being permanently sleep-deprived in winter is a health issue.

*though I used to play field hockey once a week, at 8pm, even in winter - flood lights exist!
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If it takes you longer than an hour to get to work, then you deserve to be waking up in pitch darkness… you little snowflake.
Not sure whether joking, or genuinely a hateful person...

The reason Dolly's day was 9-5 (ie lopsided wrt noon) is that we need pre-work morning sun far more than post-work evening sun.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2018, 01:11:38 PM
I think 9-to-5 is more normal in the Eastern Time Zone where everything is shifted an hour ahead relative to Central. In the Central, 8-to-4 is typical (or more likely 8-5 with a one-hour lunch).

Probably 9-to-5 is normal in the Pacific zone as well, because their TV prime time starts at 8 p.m. local, just like in the East.

If you're working a 40 hour work week, 9 - 5 is technically illegal.  That's 8 hours a day.  Federal and State Laws require at least a 30 minute lunch period.

Even if you don't actually take a lunch, they're required to schedule it.

Also, due to congestion issues, 9 - 5 would put incredible stresses on the road network for a short period of time.  Most people start work between 7 & 10, and end work between 3:30 and 7.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2018, 01:11:58 PM
I think 9-to-5 is more normal in the Eastern Time Zone where everything is shifted an hour ahead relative to Central. In the Central, 8-to-4 is typical (or more likely 8-5 with a one-hour lunch).

Probably 9-to-5 is normal in the Pacific zone as well, because their TV prime time starts at 8 p.m. local, just like in the East.
I heard an opposite thing about pacific - they tend to be early in the day. For companies in CA I deal with, tech support hours on the order of 7AM-3PM PST are not uncommon.
There was actually a big article (NYT?) a few years ago where they argued that single time zone  across US is quite realistic as many businesses align their hour with NYC anyway.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 14, 2018, 01:19:01 PM
I only know one person who works 9-5.  I find that when people say "9-5" they really mean 8-5, since lunch isn't included in an 8-hour day, it's in addition to eight hours worked.  Plus it's common for people to start earlier.  Where my Dad works, most people are at their desk by 7!

I'm having a hard time imagining how one could go from rolling out of bed to getting to work in just an hour.  Perhaps tradephoric should try becoming a girl to see how the other side lives.  I know I could save a ton of time if I didn't have to pluck my eyebrows, shampoo and condition my hair separably, dry my hair, etc., but even then, that's still only getting down to an hour not including commuting.  What does trade do, skip breakfast?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2018, 01:22:52 PM
What does trade do, skip breakfast?

He probably flies thru 20 roundabouts never needing to stop at a red light.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on May 14, 2018, 01:47:29 PM
Amongst my co-workers here in the Northeast, 9-5 is actually a late start. 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on May 14, 2018, 02:30:33 PM
I'm having a hard time imagining how one could go from rolling out of bed to getting to work in just an hour.  Perhaps tradephoric should try becoming a girl to see how the other side lives.  I know I could save a ton of time if I didn't have to pluck my eyebrows, shampoo and condition my hair separably, dry my hair, etc., but even then, that's still only getting down to an hour not including commuting.  What does trade do, skip breakfast?

I cut it fantastically close by waking up at 1pm, leaving the house by 1:50pm, and arriving at work at 2:30, and that's about the best I can do. I shower and everything before I go to bed. If I were to wake up at 1:30, I would still be half-asleep by the time I got in the car.

There's my odd-ball schedule again. Again, I suggest that rather than make adjustments to the clock, if people are having trouble getting enough sleep, maybe change industries to one that favors second-shift work. (It is not just customer-service work that we need people on 2nd for. We do have Excel data-monkeys in the back working 2nd just in case something goes awry with the promotions.)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 14, 2018, 04:28:09 PM
I cut it fantastically close by waking up at 1pm, leaving the house by 1:50pm, and arriving at work at 2:30, and that's about the best I can do.

Yikes. I guess I'm more efficient than I thought. I've awoken at 7:00 and made it to work by 7:30 or shortly thereafter*. Generally speaking, though, I like to be up by 6:00 and on the road by 6:30, which isn't infeasible, considering I'm not a real breakfast person and prefer buying something on the way in rather than killing time at home eating.

*This involved an extraordinary (and probably borderline unsafe) amount of speeding, and my commute is only eleven miles.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on May 14, 2018, 04:37:28 PM
My alarm goes off at 6:15 AM.  I get out of bed at 6:35.  Shower, sunscreen, roust the young person, dress, tea, breakfast, roust the young person again, brush teeth, collect apple for snack, put on jacket and shoes, share with young person plans for afternoon and evening, out the door about 8:10, arrive at work at 8:25.  Doesn't sound very efficient, I guess.  Work 8:30-5:30 with an hour for lunch.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2018, 04:50:21 PM
If you're working a 40 hour work week, 9 - 5 is technically illegal.  That's 8 hours a day.  Federal and State Laws require at least a 30 minute lunch period.

Even if you don't actually take a lunch, they're required to schedule it.

This is not true.  There is no federal law stipulating any break time.  Under federal law, your company could work you 24/7 if they wanted to, as long as they (a) paid you overtime and (b) paid you for any paid breaks they had already promised you of their own volition (that is, if they offer paid breaks and then refuse to pay you for one of those breaks, then they're in violation of the law).  Most states also have no laws on the books about lunch breaks; Kansas is one of those states.  Some other states (Illinois, perhaps, I can't remember offhand) require a scheduled break for government employees but not private sector workers.  A few out there actually require it for everybody, but those states are the clear minority.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 14, 2018, 05:49:15 PM
State bill proposes Daylight Saving Time in Tennessee...all the time
http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/37373059/state-bill-proposes-daylight-saving-time-in-tennesseeall-the-time

This article seems to contradict itself about 4 times.  The headline says a state bill proposes DST in Tennessee... all the time.  Then it says Tennessee would join Hawaii and most of Arizona as states that would remain on Daylight Saving Time throughout the year (even though Hawaii and Arizona remain on Standard Time throughout the year).  Then it says a state lawmaker has introduced a bill to exempt Tennessee from Daylight Saving Time.  Then that same state lawmaker, Rick Tillis, states "I've done a couple of polls and both have run right around 89 percent to stop changing the clocks, stay on Daylight Saving Time year-round".   

I'm so confused what Tennessee is planning now.  Are people from Tennessee just meant to be confusing people meant to confuse us? 
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2018, 06:14:33 PM
State bill proposes Daylight Saving Time in Tennessee...all the time
http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/37373059/state-bill-proposes-daylight-saving-time-in-tennesseeall-the-time

This article seems to contradict itself about 4 times.  The headline says a state bill proposes DST in Tennessee... all the time.  Then it says Tennessee would join Hawaii and most of Arizona as states that would remain on Daylight Saving Time throughout the year (even though Hawaii and Arizona remain on Standard Time throughout the year).  Then it says a state lawmaker has introduced a bill to exempt Tennessee from Daylight Saving Time.  Then that same state lawmaker, Rick Tillis, states "I've done a couple of polls and both have run right around 89 percent to stop changing the clocks, stay on Daylight Saving Time year-round".   

I'm so confused what Tennessee is planning now.  Are people from Tennessee just meant to be confusing people meant to confuse us?
http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/BillInfo/Default.aspx?BillNumber=HB1881
http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/BillInfo/Default.aspx?BillNumber=SB1849
" As introduced, establishes daylight savings time as the standard time in Tennessee. "
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 14, 2018, 07:02:25 PM
I'm having a hard time imagining how one could go from rolling out of bed to getting to work in just an hour.

Most days, my commute is about 5 feet (30 feet if you count a stop in the bathroom).  :D

When I do go into the office, I can be at my desk in about an hour after getting up, if I need to:  45 minutes to shave, shower, dress, and munch upon a breakfast bar; and 15 minutes to walk from the hotel and ride the elevator up.  Normally, I allow 90 minutes, for a more civilized morning routine.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 14, 2018, 09:37:16 PM
I'm so confused what Tennessee is planning now.  Are people from Tennessee just meant to be confusing people meant to confuse us?

Which is most confusing?
(a) The above post
(b) Tennessee
(c) This thread
(d) DST

After some deliberation, I think I'll go with (a)  :poke: :rofl:


Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 15, 2018, 04:50:32 PM
If you're working a 40 hour work week, 9 - 5 is technically illegal.  That's 8 hours a day.  Federal and State Laws require at least a 30 minute lunch period.

Even if you don't actually take a lunch, they're required to schedule it.

This is not true.  There is no federal law stipulating any break time.  Under federal law, your company could work you 24/7 if they wanted to, as long as they (a) paid you overtime and (b) paid you for any paid breaks they had already promised you of their own volition (that is, if they offer paid breaks and then refuse to pay you for one of those breaks, then they're in violation of the law).  Most states also have no laws on the books about lunch breaks; Kansas is one of those states.  Some other states (Illinois, perhaps, I can't remember offhand) require a scheduled break for government employees but not private sector workers.  A few out there actually require it for everybody, but those states are the clear minority.

Just FYI...

New Jersey requires a 30-minute break after 5 hours worked, but only for minors.  There is no such requirement for workers 18 and up.

Illinois requires a 20-minute break after 5 hours worked as long as the shift is at least 7½ hours long.  For minors, it goes up to 30 minutes for any shift over 5 hours long.

Kansas has no laws requiring a lunch break be offered.

You can find a list of such state laws here (https://www.employmentlawhandbook.com/wage-and-hour-laws/meal-and-break-laws/).  The US Department of Labor website (http://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/screen6.asp) clearly states "the FLSA does not require ... meal or rest periods."



ETA — Found a more useful link for state regs, with a handy-dandy map:  US Dept of Labor - Wage & Hour Division (https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/meal.htm#Kansas).  Grey states have no state reg about lunch breaks.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on May 16, 2018, 03:46:17 AM
I cut it fantastically close by waking up at 1pm, leaving the house by 1:50pm, and arriving at work at 2:30, and that's about the best I can do.

Yikes. I guess I'm more efficient than I thought. I've awoken at 7:00 and made it to work by 7:30 or shortly thereafter*. Generally speaking, though, I like to be up by 6:00 and on the road by 6:30, which isn't infeasible, considering I'm not a real breakfast person and prefer buying something on the way in rather than killing time at home eating.

*This involved an extraordinary (and probably borderline unsafe) amount of speeding, and my commute is only eleven miles.

I am fantastically inefficient at waking up—I take about 20 minutes of "bootup" time before I can even function as a person. Most of this time is usually spent inhaling a Mountain Dew while attempting to parse what the President did while I was asleep, reading incoming emails, etc.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 16, 2018, 06:12:29 AM
I am fantastically inefficient at waking up—I take about 20 minutes of "bootup" time before I can even function as a person.
Ah, but in Tradephoric's totally hypothetical world where everyone works 9-5 and can wake up instantly at dawn, rather than needing at least some post-dawn sleep before the sun resets your body clock, that gives you 40 minutes to get to work...

...which should be plenty of time - if you live further away then Tradephoric says you deserve to get up in the dark for that, just so he can eat dinner outside in mid-winter without artificial light.  :crazy:

I too need the boot up time to function properly. I need 20-30 minutes at some point in the morning, where there's quiet and I'm not being disturbed. I can rush get-up and go and do something, but then I need to recharge at some point in the morning. It never helped as a teen that my mum made me eat breakfast before I went to school - or perhaps it did as it gave me a quiet place to sit for 20-30 minutes (that I wouldn't have been allowed otherwise) as that was how long it took me to eat a bowl of cereal in the morning: because I wasn't hungry merely half an hour after I woke up, especially not for carbs (and there's good medical reason for that - cortisol the hormone that wakes you up, causes the body to resist insulin - the hormone that breaks down carbs. And cereal is basically the worst kind of breakfast for that). Getting breakfast on the go is better for me, not least as its easier to have something more protein-based (though that tends to be bread-wrapped here, and I don't do stodgy forms of bread well whatever time of day), but really I'd rather have a sit down (we've lost that culture, especially in white collar jobs, unless staying overnight in a hotel) high-protein breakfast at around 9am, or nothing.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on May 16, 2018, 07:55:42 AM
I am fantastically inefficient at waking up—I take about 20 minutes of "bootup" time before I can even function as a person.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one. Most people know not to bother me for about the first half an hour after I wake up, because I get cranky very easily if overstimulated during that time. It's like only the most primitive functions of my brain are operating, and they're almost entirely dedicated to using the bathroom and finding something to eat, then sitting in silence.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: J N Winkler on May 16, 2018, 10:36:05 AM
I usually budget two hours plus reasonable driving time before morning commitments.  This gives me enough time for a cup of coffee (brewed from 100% arabica ground coffee--usually Colombian--in a moka pot), an email/Web forum/news website check, a bowl of oatmeal (one cup oatmeal, two cups 1% milk, 2:24 in 1200-W microwave), one-fourth of a juice glass of orange juice to kill coffee breath, some water, a bowel movement (normally the only one in the day), and a shower.

At this stage in my life, it does not really make a difference to my alertness throughout the day whether I get up just before sunrise or up to a few hours afterward.  This is far eclipsed by the short-term effects of a sudden move to an earlier waking schedule--having to get up even an hour earlier than my usual waking time causes problems, which is one reason I would be happy if we got rid of DST-related time changes.

Upthread, I said a person could dispense with an alarm clock if he or she established how much sleep he or she needed and set his or her bedtime accordingly.  What I should have also said, but did not, is that this approach depends on a steady schedule to work well.  A person who does not stick to the same sleeping schedule 7 days a week but instead relies on the weekends to sleep in will have a hard time breaking dependency on an alarm clock even if he or she budgets the same amount of time for sleeping each night.

I am also a fan of negotiating appointment sex with a willing intimate partner.  Spontaneity doesn't mean much if one or both partners is sleep-deprived, or is in the position of having to trade sleeping time for sex.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 16, 2018, 12:51:26 PM
Upthread, I said a person could dispense with an alarm clock if he or she established how much sleep he or she needed and set his or her bedtime accordingly.
And upthread I explained that doesn't work for me and why it doesn't. I'm sure others here are similar to me, just as others can do what you can do - then again, as you point out - even you can't do this: its only as it becomes a habit to sleep certain hours that you can and when that changes, you can't cope.

It's a biological condition that we need sunlight to produce the hormones, etc that wake you up, not some scheduling failure that can be fixed with better discipline!

Yes, of course, using the weekends to catch up is a bad habit - but for most of us its one forced on us by having to wake up well before our bodies want to during the week and spending it sleep deprived, especially in winter. And even if we got into the habit of sleeping the same hours at weekends as in the week, we'd still need alarm clocks because the problem isn't routine, but biology.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 16, 2018, 01:28:00 PM
Spontaneity doesn't mean much if one or both partners is sleep-deprived, or is in the position of having to trade sleeping time for sex.

It can also lead to the unfortunate consequence that you're no longer sleepy afterward and actually have a harder time getting to sleep than if you had foregone the sex.

(you knew someone had to chime in on this)
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 20160805 on May 16, 2018, 04:16:24 PM
I usually budget two hours plus reasonable driving time before morning commitments.  This gives me enough time for a cup of coffee (brewed from 100% arabica ground coffee--usually Colombian--in a moka pot), an email/Web forum/news website check, a bowl of oatmeal (one cup oatmeal, two cups 1% milk, 2:24 in 1200-W microwave), one-fourth of a juice glass of orange juice to kill coffee breath, some water, a bowel movement (normally the only one in the day), and a shower.

At this stage in my life, it does not really make a difference to my alertness throughout the day whether I get up just before sunrise or up to a few hours afterward.  This is far eclipsed by the short-term effects of a sudden move to an earlier waking schedule--having to get up even an hour earlier than my usual waking time causes problems, which is one reason I would be happy if we got rid of DST-related time changes.

Upthread, I said a person could dispense with an alarm clock if he or she established how much sleep he or she needed and set his or her bedtime accordingly.  What I should have also said, but did not, is that this approach depends on a steady schedule to work well.  A person who does not stick to the same sleeping schedule 7 days a week but instead relies on the weekends to sleep in will have a hard time breaking dependency on an alarm clock even if he or she budgets the same amount of time for sleeping each night.

I am also a fan of negotiating appointment sex with a willing intimate partner.  Spontaneity doesn't mean much if one or both partners is sleep-deprived, or is in the position of having to trade sleeping time for sex.

I love how dropping a deuce is a scheduled part of your day.  :D
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 16, 2018, 04:26:33 PM
I usually budget two hours plus reasonable driving time before morning commitments.  This gives me enough time for a cup of coffee (brewed from 100% arabica ground coffee--usually Colombian--in a moka pot), an email/Web forum/news website check, a bowl of oatmeal (one cup oatmeal, two cups 1% milk, 2:24 in 1200-W microwave), one-fourth of a juice glass of orange juice to kill coffee breath, some water, a bowel movement (normally the only one in the day), and a shower.

At this stage in my life, it does not really make a difference to my alertness throughout the day whether I get up just before sunrise or up to a few hours afterward.  This is far eclipsed by the short-term effects of a sudden move to an earlier waking schedule--having to get up even an hour earlier than my usual waking time causes problems, which is one reason I would be happy if we got rid of DST-related time changes.

Upthread, I said a person could dispense with an alarm clock if he or she established how much sleep he or she needed and set his or her bedtime accordingly.  What I should have also said, but did not, is that this approach depends on a steady schedule to work well.  A person who does not stick to the same sleeping schedule 7 days a week but instead relies on the weekends to sleep in will have a hard time breaking dependency on an alarm clock even if he or she budgets the same amount of time for sleeping each night.

I am also a fan of negotiating appointment sex with a willing intimate partner.  Spontaneity doesn't mean much if one or both partners is sleep-deprived, or is in the position of having to trade sleeping time for sex.

I love how dropping a deuce is a scheduled part of your day.  :D

I love how you drink sugar instead of brushing your teeth to kill bad breath.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 16, 2018, 10:19:17 PM
I usually budget two hours plus reasonable driving time before morning commitments.  This gives me enough time for a cup of coffee (brewed from 100% arabica ground coffee--usually Colombian--in a moka pot), an email/Web forum/news website check, a bowl of oatmeal (one cup oatmeal, two cups 1% milk, 2:24 in 1200-W microwave), one-fourth of a juice glass of orange juice to kill coffee breath, some water, a bowel movement (normally the only one in the day), and a shower.

Since everyone is "loving" components of this post: I'm just impressed with the detail. I could not get my mornings structured down to a science like that. I'm not particularly fond of structure, so I wouldn't want that anyways, but it is impressive nonetheless.

And no, I cannot even attempt to schedule a specific time for bowel movements  :-P
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on May 17, 2018, 07:33:00 AM
And no, I cannot even attempt to schedule a specific time for bowel movements  :-P

Me neither, but if I can, I like to do them at work:

Boss makes a dollar,
I make a dime.
That's why I shit
on company time.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 17, 2018, 10:01:19 AM
Delaying Middle School and High School Start Times Promotes Student Health and Performance: An American Academy of Sleep Medicine Position Statement

During adolescence, internal circadian rhythms and biological sleep drive change to result in later sleep and wake times. As a result of these changes, early middle school and high school start times curtail sleep, hamper a student's preparedness to learn, negatively impact physical and mental health, and impair driving safety. Furthermore, a growing body of evidence shows that delaying school start times positively impacts student achievement, health, and safety. Public awareness of the hazards of early school start times and the benefits of later start times are largely unappreciated. As a result, the American Academy of Sleep Medicine is calling on communities, school boards, and educational institutions to implement start times of 8:30 AM or later for middle schools and high schools to ensure that every student arrives at school healthy, awake, alert, and ready to learn.

http://jcsm.aasm.org/viewabstract.aspx?pid=30998

School start times of 7AM-7:30AM seem to be common for middle school and high schools throughout the country.  If school start times were shifted later to match the American Academy of Sleep Medicine Position, then the debate of "going to school in dark" argument would be a non-starter.  Other research has suggested that high school students should start school as late as 11AM.  Maybe 11AM is extreme, but pushing all school start times later by an hour if the nation adopts permanent daylight savings time, that doesn't sound too extreme. 


Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: english si on May 17, 2018, 11:01:58 AM
pushing all school start times later by an hour if the nation adopts permanent daylight savings time, that doesn't sound too extreme.
It's arguably extreme to do anything less than that, given the science here.

In winter, starting an hour later is cancelled out by the clocks being an hour ahead of where they are with the current schedule - as such, while not helping, at least it doesn't hinder as keeping the status quo time would!

Glad to see you are engaging with the science, though.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 17, 2018, 11:25:13 AM
pushing all school start times later by an hour if the nation adopts permanent daylight savings time, that doesn't sound too extreme.
It's arguably extreme to do anything less than that, given the science here.

In winter, starting an hour later is cancelled out by the clocks being an hour ahead of where they are with the current schedule - as such, while not helping, at least it doesn't hinder as keeping the status quo time would!

Glad to see you are engaging with the science, though.
I am not sure if you're familiar with (pretty crazy) logistics of school bus operation in US. And changing that would either require significant spending (more buses, more drivers); or would get an extreme opposition from parents.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: J N Winkler on May 17, 2018, 12:12:01 PM
And upthread I explained that doesn't work for me and why it doesn't. I'm sure others here are similar to me, just as others can do what you can do - then again, as you point out - even you can't do this: its only as it becomes a habit to sleep certain hours that you can and when that changes, you can't cope.

I agree there are people for whom the alarm-clock-free lifestyle doesn't work, such as those whose ability to adhere to a consistent sleep pattern has been destroyed by meningitis.  However, the health benefits of a full night's rest every night are such that I believe it is worth a try.

I did have to change my sleep pattern last week when I had to report for jury duty.  I had no difficulty getting up on time after the first night.  However, I was carrying a sleep deficit going into the second night and overslept, thus forcing me to rush a bit more in the morning than I would have liked.  I arrived just barely on time in the courthouse only to find a crowd waiting for elevators in the ground-floor lobby.  I feared being found in contempt for being late, so I didn't feel I had time to wait for the next free elevator.  I took the stairs (two steps at a time) to the tenth-floor courtroom for my assigned trial.  I started losing my wind around the sixth floor; another juror ended up also climbing the stairs part of the way and told me she could hear my breathing from five floors away.

Things were a bit easier the third night, but it was not until after the fourth night that my colon finally caught up with the new schedule.

Many years ago, as an undergraduate, I did use a bed-shaker alarm but discovered I usually woke up before it went off if I had gone to bed at a reasonable hour the previous evening.  I normally budgeted eight hours for sleep and this is about half an hour longer than five times the normal REM sleep cycle length of 1 1/2 hours.  On the other hand, if I had stayed up very late working on an assignment due the next day (often as a result of procrastination), chances were good that I would sleep through the bed shaking, and they got even better after a previous night of inadequate sleep.

This experience persuaded me to dispense with alarms altogether, though for one-day commitments requiring me to get up earlier than normal, I have cheated by setting my internal alarm (what a friend calls "power of will") so that I awaken at the end of the last full REM cycle before the time I need to get out of bed, as long as I have had enough sleep the previous night.

It's a biological condition that we need sunlight to produce the hormones, etc that wake you up, not some scheduling failure that can be fixed with better discipline!

Getting up early is often framed in moralistic terms, notably in the phrase commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin:  "Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise."  However, I don't agree with this framing.  In terms of the health outcomes associated with various sleep patterns, being a night owl is not degenerate behavior provided one gets a full night's sleep between the late bedtime and the late rising time.  Meanwhile, ensuring that the amount of sleep between the early bedtime and the early rising time is adequate--the implied corollary of Franklin's proverb--is just as consistent with narcissism as it is with moral uprightness.

As for the lack of light signals to help regulate circadian rhythms, this is something that can be counterbalanced to an extent given the technologies now available for producing artificial light and screening ourselves from the sun.  The people who are least able to take advantage of such technical measures, and who are therefore at greatest risk of long-term health problems from an upside-down sleeping pattern, are neither early birds nor night owls but rather people who work at night and have to try to sleep during the day.

It can also lead to the unfortunate consequence that you're no longer sleepy afterward and actually have a harder time getting to sleep than if you had foregone the sex.

(you knew someone had to chime in on this)

I wondered if anyone would actually notice that paragraph.

I love how dropping a deuce is a scheduled part of your day.  :D

And no, I cannot even attempt to schedule a specific time for bowel movements  :-P

From the standpoint of good quality of life, the ideal stool is consistently timed (the medically acceptable range is one every three days to three every day, though some consider the sweet spot to be between once a day and once after every meal), has water content between 65% and 75%, is easy to pass (defecating should be just as easy as urinating), and leaves a person feeling he or she has voided his or her bowels completely (no tenesmus).  For a fortunate few this is an effortless part of their day-to-day existence; others have to work at it; and still others, owing partly to colon disease, cannot achieve it no matter what they do.

I belong in the second group and rely partly on the laxative effect of coffee and partly on a diet moderately high in fiber (usually around 35 g a day, divided more or less evenly among meals and snacks, with a minimum of five servings from three different vegetables, and one apple before bed every night).  When I depart from the ideal, which thankfully is not often, it is generally in the direction of constipation rather than diarrhea.  Constipation is the norm in the US for many reasons, including our national diet being rich and low in fiber and far too many of us working excessively long hours.  As a result, we have a culture of magazines and other light reading material in bathrooms at home; moreover, when someone actually defecates in a public bathroom, two times out of three the resulting smell is of burnt coffee, which is characteristic of dense stools with low water content.

In my case, part of the motivation for moving bowels in the morning is also to use the shower as a vertical bidet.  Not having to rely exclusively on toilet paper helps keep skin irritation and underwear streaks to a minimum.

I love how you drink sugar instead of brushing your teeth to kill bad breath.

I learned the trick many years ago in Madrid, where a typical breakfast is a churro (made with potato flour rather than pastry dough as here, and so savory rather than sweet), a cup of cafe con leche, and a small glass of orange juice, albeit freshly squeezed using a Zumo juicing machine in the customer's field of view.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 20160805 on May 17, 2018, 05:09:08 PM
Delaying Middle School and High School Start Times Promotes Student Health and Performance: An American Academy of Sleep Medicine Position Statement

During adolescence, internal circadian rhythms and biological sleep drive change to result in later sleep and wake times. As a result of these changes, early middle school and high school start times curtail sleep, hamper a student's preparedness to learn, negatively impact physical and mental health, and impair driving safety. Furthermore, a growing body of evidence shows that delaying school start times positively impacts student achievement, health, and safety. Public awareness of the hazards of early school start times and the benefits of later start times are largely unappreciated. As a result, the American Academy of Sleep Medicine is calling on communities, school boards, and educational institutions to implement start times of 8:30 AM or later for middle schools and high schools to ensure that every student arrives at school healthy, awake, alert, and ready to learn.

http://jcsm.aasm.org/viewabstract.aspx?pid=30998

School start times of 7AM-7:30AM seem to be common for middle school and high schools throughout the country.  If school start times were shifted later to match the American Academy of Sleep Medicine Position, then the debate of "going to school in dark" argument would be a non-starter.  Other research has suggested that high school students should start school as late as 11AM.  Maybe 11AM is extreme, but pushing all school start times later by an hour if the nation adopts permanent daylight savings time, that doesn't sound too extreme.
I've heard this too, but at least from my experience, not true.  When I was in high school, if I was given the freedom to pick my own wake/sleep hours without interference from other commitments such as school, it probably would have looked something like 06:00-22:00; the teenage shift was maybe an hour at best.

Furthermore, let's look at how my day would have gone if school did start at 11:00.  Forget school lunch; it's now school supper, served probably around 16:00.  The end of the school day wouldn't be until 19:00, which is the start of my "late evening".  Transportation to school in the morning would be an issue, forcing me to take the bus until I learned to drive, and besides, when you've got something to do starting in the morning, the hours prior to that are relegated to getting ready for the day, sitting around the house, etc., leaving five to six hours of time in the morning to be completely wasted, and at night there's no time to get anything done either because it's already late-thirty by the time the bus drops me back off at home.

In short, bad idea; my high school's 07:25-14:56 hours were just fine.  Middle school (07:25-14:46) was even sweeter; I loved being able to get out of there and back into my own house before 15:00 (the transition from early to late afternoon)!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: hbelkins on May 17, 2018, 09:23:04 PM

From the standpoint of good quality of life, the ideal stool is consistently timed (the medically acceptable range is one every three days to three every day, though some consider the sweet spot to be between once a day and once after every meal), has water content between 65% and 75%, is easy to pass (defecating should be just as easy as urinating), and leaves a person feeling he or she has voided his or her bowels completely (no tenesmus).  For a fortunate few this is an effortless part of their day-to-day existence; others have to work at it; and still others, owing partly to colon disease, cannot achieve it no matter what they do.

I belong in the second group and rely partly on the laxative effect of coffee and partly on a diet moderately high in fiber (usually around 35 g a day, divided more or less evenly among meals and snacks, with a minimum of five servings from three different vegetables, and one apple before bed every night).  When I depart from the ideal, which thankfully is not often, it is generally in the direction of constipation rather than diarrhea.  Constipation is the norm in the US for many reasons, including our national diet being rich and low in fiber and far too many of us working excessively long hours.  As a result, we have a culture of magazines and other light reading material in bathrooms at home; moreover, when someone actually defecates in a public bathroom, two times out of three the resulting smell is of burnt coffee, which is characteristic of dense stools with low water content.

In my case, part of the motivation for moving bowels in the morning is also to use the shower as a vertical bidet.  Not having to rely exclusively on toilet paper helps keep skin irritation and underwear streaks to a minimum.

I'll just leave this here...

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12813.msg309754#msg309754
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MNHighwayMan on May 17, 2018, 09:48:26 PM
Why in the world are we discussing defecation in a thread about DST? :-D

That said, the thing I hate the most is when I just get out of the shower, and then I get the urge.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: webny99 on May 17, 2018, 10:28:48 PM
Why in the world are we discussing defecation in a thread about DST? :-D

After 35 pages of largely unproductive discussion, the two concepts are now inherently related  :-P

Quote
That said, the thing I hate the most is when I just get out of the shower, and then I get the urge.

Oh, man. I'm with you. I assume the only thing worse is getting out of the shower on November 5th, setting your clock forward an hour, and then getting the urge  :rofl:
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: slorydn1 on May 18, 2018, 05:40:11 AM
Wow, I see this thread has gone right down the shi- oops, i mean toilet.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on May 18, 2018, 07:32:30 AM
When DST was extended in 2005, the US Department of Energy reported to Congress that there was 1.3 Tera Watt-hour of energy savings (or 0.5% per each day of Extended Daylight Saving Time).  It also mentioned the following regarding regional impacts of extended DST:

Quote
...southern portions of the United States exhibited slightly smaller impacts of Extended Daylight Saving Time on energy savings compared to the northern regions, a result possibly due to a small, offsetting increase in household air conditioning usage.

A few points.  First, daylight savings opponents often cite that the extension of daylight saving time in 2005 only reduced the county’s total electricity use by 0.03 percent.  But that is averaging the extended DST electricity savings over the entire year, and not looking at the 0.5% daily savings for each day of extended DST.  Point being, 0.5% daily energy savings is significant but opponents want to downplay it by averaging it for the entire year.  It’s like starting a diet in November and losing 24 lbs by the end of the year.  That person “ONLY” averaged a loss of 2 lbs per month… big deal right? 

Secondly, while Daylight Saving Time reduces demand for residential lighting, it often increases demand for air conditioning in the summer.  But this isn’t the case in the winter.   In the winter, the reduced demand for residential lighting isn’t offset by the increased air-condition usage (ie. people in Florida or Georgia don’t require 24/7 cooling in December like they do in July).  So, while the Department of Energy found 0.5% of energy savings for each day that Daylight Saving Time was extended back in 2005, these daily savings would potentially be much higher if they are looking at the energy savings for the entire winter (ie. if the nation went to year-round DST).
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Rothman on May 18, 2018, 07:41:05 AM
Anyone mention the problem of after-school activites and sports if you shift the school start time?
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kalvado on May 18, 2018, 07:42:44 AM
When DST was extended in 2005, the US Department of Energy reported to Congress that there was 1.3 Tera Watt-hour of energy savings (or 0.5% per each day of Extended Daylight Saving Time).  It also mentioned the following regarding regional impacts of extended DST:

Quote
...southern portions of the United States exhibited slightly smaller impacts of Extended Daylight Saving Time on energy savings compared to the northern regions, a result possibly due to a small, offsetting increase in household air conditioning usage.

A few points.  First, daylight savings opponents often cite that the extension of daylight saving time in 2005 only reduced the county’s total electricity use by 0.03 percent.  But that is averaging the extended DST electricity savings over the entire year, and not looking at the 0.5% daily savings for each day of extended DST.  Point being, 0.5% daily energy savings is significant but opponents want to downplay it by averaging it for the entire year.  It’s like starting a diet in November and losing 24 lbs by the end of the year.  That person “ONLY” averaged a loss of 2 lbs per month… big deal right? 

Secondly, while Daylight Saving Time reduces demand for residential lighting, it often increases demand for air conditioning in the summer.  But this isn’t the case in the winter.   In the winter, the reduced demand for residential lighting isn’t offset by the increased air-condition usage (ie. people in Florida or Georgia don’t require 24/7 cooling in December like they do in July).  So, while the Department of Energy found 0.5% of energy savings for each day that Daylight Saving Time was extended back in 2005, these daily savings would potentially be much higher if they are looking at the energy savings for the entire winter (ie. if the nation went to year-round DST).

0.5% value really needs a error bar attached to it. And I would be very surprised if that is a statistically significant difference.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 18, 2018, 01:56:28 PM
Anyone mention the problem of after-school activites and sports if you shift the school start time?

I refuse to take after-school activities into account in principal.  School should be about school, and extracurricular activities can just tag along for the ride as it works out.  If a currently after-school activity needs to be shifted to a before-school activity in order to more effectively use daylight, then so be it.  We've already reached the point that it's no big deal for athletes to miss multiple days of school in a month in order to compete in weekday out-of-town competitions; if current school day hours are detrimental to students' ability to concentrate, then after-school activities be damned.  In my opinion, of course.

Other research has suggested that high school students should start school as late as 11AM.  Maybe 11AM is extreme, but pushing all school start times later by an hour if the nation adopts permanent daylight savings time, that doesn't sound too extreme.

let's look at how my day would have gone if school did start at 11:00.  Forget school lunch; it's now school supper, served probably around 16:00.  The end of the school day wouldn't be until 19:00, which is the start of my "late evening".  Transportation to school in the morning would be an issue, forcing me to take the bus until I learned to drive, and besides, when you've got something to do starting in the morning, the hours prior to that are relegated to getting ready for the day, sitting around the house, etc., leaving five to six hours of time in the morning to be completely wasted, and at night there's no time to get anything done either because it's already late-thirty by the time the bus drops me back off at home.

In short, bad idea; my high school's 07:25-14:56 hours were just fine.  Middle school (07:25-14:46) was even sweeter; I loved being able to get out of there and back into my own house before 15:00 (the transition from early to late afternoon)!

The town in Mexico that my family regularly goes to has two sets of school hours.  Well, actually they vary slightly from school to school, but there are two main schedules—morning school and evening school.  Half the students in town go to school from (and these are approximate times) 8 AM to 1:30 PM, while the other half go from 2:30 PM to 8 PM.  Somehow, those evening class students manage to get their homework done, same as the morning class students.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: mrsman on May 23, 2018, 09:41:53 PM


The town in Mexico that my family regularly goes to has two sets of school hours.  Well, actually they vary slightly from school to school, but there are two main schedules—morning school and evening school.  Half the students in town go to school from (and these are approximate times) 8 AM to 1:30 PM, while the other half go from 2:30 PM to 8 PM.  Somehow, those evening class students manage to get their homework done, same as the morning class students.

What a smart way to saving money on school construction.  Because only 1/2 the kids are in school at any one time, Mexico only needs to support 1/2 of the schools as otherwise.

Here when there is school crowding, they just fit more kids in the classroom and put trailers in the playground as classrooms.  Some year-round schools are able to get maybe an additional 33% or 50% students, but Mexico can double the capacity of students.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 23, 2018, 09:53:56 PM
What a smart way to saving money on school construction.  Because only 1/2 the kids are in school at any one time, Mexico only needs to support 1/2 of the schools as otherwise.

Here when there is school crowding, they just fit more kids in the classroom and put trailers in the playground as classrooms.  Some year-round schools are able to get maybe an additional 33% or 50% students, but Mexico can double the capacity of students.

I understand that at one point, in one Denver suburb, they handled school crowding by dividing each grade into thirds.  One third would start in September; another third in January; and another third in May.  (Not positive about the start months...)

In so doing, they boosted the capacity of each school by 50%.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: Scott5114 on May 23, 2018, 09:55:19 PM


The town in Mexico that my family regularly goes to has two sets of school hours.  Well, actually they vary slightly from school to school, but there are two main schedules—morning school and evening school.  Half the students in town go to school from (and these are approximate times) 8 AM to 1:30 PM, while the other half go from 2:30 PM to 8 PM.  Somehow, those evening class students manage to get their homework done, same as the morning class students.

What a smart way to saving money on school construction.  Because only 1/2 the kids are in school at any one time, Mexico only needs to support 1/2 of the schools as otherwise.

Here when there is school crowding, they just fit more kids in the classroom and put trailers in the playground as classrooms.  Some year-round schools are able to get maybe an additional 33% or 50% students, but Mexico can double the capacity of students.

You do still need twice as many teachers, though (unless you really want them to work five 12-hour shifts a week, which is inhumane, especially for the salaries a teacher commands), so you're only really saving on facility expenses. Payroll and supplies like books, etc. are probably bigger chunks of a school's budget than construction and upkeep of physical buildings.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kkt on May 24, 2018, 01:20:54 AM
It has significant disadvantages for the kids, though.  Seattle Schools did that for a while during the baby boom.  Both shifts are bad times, some way too early and some way too late.  Things like clubs and sports teams have trouble getting practice times and game times that work for a reasonable number of people.  It's harder to get to know your classmates.  It's an expedient but hopefully a short-lived one.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:47:14 PM
Things like clubs and sports teams have trouble getting practice times and game times that work for a reasonable number of people. 

My opinion on this matter was stated in the post that started this sub-topic.   ↓ ↓ ↓

It also happens to not be an issue in Mexico, as sports there are community clubs, not school clubs.

I refuse to take after-school activities into account in principal.  School should be about school, and extracurricular activities can just tag along for the ride as it works out.  If a currently after-school activity needs to be shifted to a before-school activity in order to more effectively use daylight, then so be it.  We've already reached the point that it's no big deal for athletes to miss multiple days of school in a month in order to compete in weekday out-of-town competitions; if current school day hours are detrimental to students' ability to concentrate, then after-school activities be damned.  In my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2018, 01:03:19 PM


The town in Mexico that my family regularly goes to has two sets of school hours.  Well, actually they vary slightly from school to school, but there are two main schedules—morning school and evening school.  Half the students in town go to school from (and these are approximate times) 8 AM to 1:30 PM, while the other half go from 2:30 PM to 8 PM.  Somehow, those evening class students manage to get their homework done, same as the morning class students.

What a smart way to saving money on school construction.  Because only 1/2 the kids are in school at any one time, Mexico only needs to support 1/2 of the schools as otherwise.

Here when there is school crowding, they just fit more kids in the classroom and put trailers in the playground as classrooms.  Some year-round schools are able to get maybe an additional 33% or 50% students, but Mexico can double the capacity of students.

The high school in my town had split-sessions like that...back in the 1960's!  They finally built a middle school (in the late '60s) to reduce it.

While you could 'save' on school costs, it's not an ideal situation.  Younger grade classes have greatly different needs than older grade classes. You can't utilize all the space in the room for one subject or one grade.   Some rooms, like science labs, would be completely unusable and unsafe for younger kids.  In today's age, having classes from 1 - 8 (or whatever) means you need someone to watch the kid while both parents work in the morning, or send them to a day-care, which means they're out of the house for 12 hours or more.

As far as it 'not being an issue in Mexico', is that fact, or is that just seeing that they do it and figuring that it's not an issue.  Because if that's not an issue, then there's a whole lot of crime, drugs and suspect activity in Mexico that occurs normally that must not be an issue either.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 01:26:36 PM
As far as it 'not being an issue in Mexico', is that fact, or is that just seeing that they do it and figuring that it's not an issue.  Because if that's not an issue, then there's a whole lot of crime, drugs and suspect activity in Mexico that occurs normally that must not be an issue either.

Let me clarify.  Class times conflicting with school sports schedules is not an issue in Mexico, because schools in Mexico generally do not have sports teams.  I'm not saying Mexican kids don't play sports, just that they don't play school sports.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: vdeane on May 24, 2018, 08:50:04 PM
Yeah, school sports teams are a largely US phenomenon.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: ghYHZ on June 11, 2018, 11:36:09 AM
It’s almost the summer solstice.... with a hint of light in the east at 3:35 this morning. I was out on deck in the middle of the Cabot Strait…..taking the overnight ferry to Newfoundland. We were at the far eastern end of the Atlantic Time Zone…..just crossing into Newfoundland Time where it became 4:05 am (Newfoundland has one of those half-hour zones) Latitude was 47deg N…..about the same as Quebec City, Duluth, Fargo and Tacoma.   
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: jakeroot on June 11, 2018, 02:39:17 PM
It’s almost the summer solstice.... with a hint of light in the east at 3:35 this morning. I was out on deck in the middle of the Cabot Strait…..taking the overnight ferry to Newfoundland. We were at the far eastern end of the Atlantic Time Zone…..just crossing into Newfoundland Time where it became 4:05 am (Newfoundland has one of those half-hour zones) Latitude was 47deg N…..about the same as Quebec City, Duluth, Fargo and Tacoma.

Your experience (minus the ferry) does indeed reflect what I'm seeing in Tacoma. Most of the night is now astronomical twilight, though there's still a couple hours of total darkness just past midnight. Great for my job driving Lyft!
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: tradephoric on June 12, 2018, 08:22:10 AM
As we approach the summer solstice, the sunset times along the east coast is around 8:30 PM.  Here are the current sunset times for major cities along the east coast:

8:14 PM – Miami, FL
8:29 PM - Jacksonville, FL
8:29 PM – Charleston, SC
8:27 PM – Myrtle Beach, SC
8:25 PM – Wilmington, NC
8:24 PM – Virginia Beach, VA
8:35 PM – Washington, DC
8:34 PM – Baltimore, MD
8:29 PM – Dover, DE
8:26 PM – Atlantic City, NJ
8:31 PM – Philadelphia, PA
8:28 PM – New York City
8:27 PM – Bridgeport, CT
8:22 PM – Boston, MA
8:24 PM – Portland, ME

According to the US Census Bureau, 41 million people live in Atlantic coastline counties.  Without DST, millions of Americans would see sunsets at 7:30 PM as opposed to 8:30 PM.  Do 41 million people really want hour earlier sunsets during the summer?  People on the east coast would barely have time to wash their car after work before it’s dark out... let alone do any other outdoor task they may need to do after work.
Title: Re: DST (2018)
Post by: 1 on June 12, 2018, 08:24:58 AM